>> you will see a time from 1980 until 2020 when you saw this tremendous prosperity in a number of major urban centers. don't20 beyond, if we approach this in a thoughtful, careful way, could represent a reversal in which the economic activity, the talent that went into cities, goes out. announcer 2: sunday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span's "q&a". k.th joel "thetein, the author of white house vice presidency: the path to significance, mondale to biden." good morning. guest: good to be with you. thanks for having me. host: i will go right into your most recent article. you wrote in "the atlantic" twas

called "the stunning success of vice president most powerful in. why do you think that? guest: actually, that was an article that i was quoted in -- it was an article written by somebody else. but i think that vice president biden's vice president would be very important and consequential. the office has grown really withficantly, beginning the walter mondale vice presidency from 1971 to 1981. it is no longer just a stopgap equipment. ofis a robust, ongoing job real consequence. i think the fact that vice president biden served himself or eight years is a very consequential -- as a very consequential and engaged vice president gives him a unique

appreciation of the office, and i think he is likely to interest his vice president, to use his vice president in important ways, and to rely on his vice president -- perhaps some ways different from president obama use but to make significant of the vice president. aboutlet's talk a little the history of the vice presidency and how the office has evolved over the years. in the articles of confederation, there was no vice president. how did they come up with the idea of the vice president and how was the person who was vice president first chosen? guest: it is an interesting story. we do not really know exactly what was in the minds of the founders in creating the vice presidency. what we do know is the vice presidency was conceived towards the end of the

philadelphia convention, and it came into the discussion at the same time as the electoral college. my best judgment is that the primary reason for creating the was not focused on any particular governing responsibility. i think the governors -- of the founders were thinking primarily that we need someone to preside over the senate or we need to have a successor. what they were really thinking of was to try to make the original electoral system work. they were worried that, after george washington, they would a national to elect president, that the electors from different states would favor their own states' favored sons. so they came up with a system where they gave the electors two votes, but they provided one of the votes had to be cast for someone who is not from the elector's home state.

what they hoped was at the second vote would go to the consensus national president. in order to make the electors take the votes seriously, they created the second office of the vice presidency. in the 12th amendment in 1804, what they determined was at the original electoral system was not working, so they changed the electoral system to have separate elections for president and vice president. some people suggested that we no longer need and vice president, but the vice president survived and has grown and evolved in a way that is very different from its original conception. host: now the vice presidential office depends on -- their duties -- they have on constitutional duty, that is to over thest to preside

senate. are there other duties specifically for the vice president? guest: pretty much every thing else depends on the president, his or her leadership style, and the relationship between the two. the constitution says that the vice president is the president of the senate and can break tie votes and that the vice president is first in line of presidential succession. but vice presidents, beginning with richard nixon in 1953, almost never preside over the senate. their work is done at the other end of pennsylvania avenue. and although the successor role is important -- we have had nine vice president who became president where the president died or, in one case, richard nixon, resigned -- 80% of the time, the vice president does not become president, so most

of what the vice president does depends upon two things. the patterns i've developed, beginning with the .arter-mondale administration they developed a new vision of the vice president, where the vice president serves as sort of an across-the-board advisor to the president on policy, personnel, politics, and so forth. and the vice president serves as a troubleshooter on matters that need to be handled at the highest level. what a particular vice president does depends on what the president asks him or her to do. rank vicehow do we presidents? is there a vice president you can look at and say, definitively, this is a vice president who is the most successful at being vice president? how do they rank in history? guest: well, it is a good

question. we do not really have a vice presidential ranking. it is a little bit tricky, because for much of our history, the vice presidency was very different. it was very much of a nothing job. top-ranked people used to turn it down. when daniel webster was asked -- was given the chance to be the ticket,mate on the 1848 he declined, saying i do not propose to be buried before i am dead. so really the significant vice presidency begins with walter mondale. i think mondale was the most significant vice president, because he really reimagined the office. showed that the new office he and president carter created could work. since mondale, the other vice presidents have largely copied

the model that mondale created. i wrote an article several years ago, at the end of the obama presidency -- i think it was called "the stunning success of vice president biden's vice presidency." i the key was the most successful to turn vice president in the sense he had remain engaged at a high level, throughout the two terms. his relationship with president obama, his involvement, has been sustained up to two terms, and that was really significant. vice president cheney was very influential, particularly in the first bush administration, but less so in the second of initiation -- administration as president bush came to rely much less on his advice. host: let's let our viewers join in. we will open up our regular lines. that means, republicans, your number will be (202) 748-8001.

democrats, we want to hear from you at (202) 748-8000. independents, your number will be (202) 748-8002. keep in mind, you can always and us at (202) 748-8003, we are always reading on social media, on twitter at @cspanwj and on facebook at facebook.com/cspan. we have had a lot of whoersations recently about democratic presidential candidate joe biden will choose for his vice president for his run against president trump. here's a quote from "the boston globe." take could be about any election. and since 2000, the presidential

political environment between republican and democratic teams has large involved trench warfare. the marches and poles has been small. this is not where we are at --biden has a commanding lead and is winning in nearly every important swing state. so i will turn to you -- does it matter who joe biden chooses as his vice presidential running mate, when it comes to this election coming up in november? guest: sure. i think it always matters. it matters in several different respects. matters in terms of the campaign. campaigns are dynamic. we have seen come over the last few months, the political context in which we have operated has changed dramatically, so we do not really know what the world will september, october,

november. anything for take granted. specifically vice presidential about the messages selector, how he or she goes about making decisions, what the selector's values are, what are the themes of the campaign. in terms of sending messages about vice president biden, the pick is important. and also in terms of engaging somebody at a high level, wherever he picks will become very active and visible during the campaign. my guess is that vice president biden is also thinking more than most presidential candidates do about his pick in terms of what kind of governing partner the person would be, given that vice president biden has such an andeciation of the office has seen its potential importance, i would think he is

looking very hard and thinking a partnert what kind of different options would be. of course, the third reason, the most remote reason, is there is always the possibility of presidential succession, either through a presidential death or inability. it is a remote contingency. weis one that, fortunately, really have not had since the nixon resignation in 1974, but it needs to be in the back -- or really come in the front, of residential candidate's minds when he or she is making a decision. host: do -- sorry, go ahead. guest: well also, one of the things is that, by and large, picking somebody as a running voters view as a plausible president who is

somebody they can see sitting in the oval office is not simply good governance but also good politics. by and large, i think the most effective vice presidential candidates have been people who anducted themselves in such impressive level during the campaigns that voters looked at them and felt a certain comfort level of them being president, should that happen. host: the list of women that democratic candidate joe biden is picking from seems to be from a pool of whether it is senator elizabeth warren, california senator kamala harris, whether it is karen bass or susan rice. one of our social media followers wants to ask you this question about the pool. why is it that biden needs to choose his running mate from the

pool of fellow politicians? why can we not look at other fields of endeavor? why not academia or business leaders? maybe a woman of a major university. limited to the cool of professional politicians. have they been mostly politicians or do they reach outside of politics for their candidate? guest: that is an interesting question. particularly in the modern period when presidential candidates start their process they start with a long list and they think outside the box. considerationo business leaders, university

presidents, foundation heads, non-politicians. ultimately, when they get to the invariablyg process, in both parties what is left are people who felt significant. if you look at the vice presidential candidates who have been chosen, first time vice presidential candidates in modern times always come from the pool of past or former senators, past or present senators, past or present governors, past or present members of the cabinet or high executives in the federal government, or members of the house of representatives. governor 1936 when alice landon picked a newspaper

publisher did somebody from outside those categories been selected by a major party as if ice presidential candidate. ultimately, the job involves politics and government. so, typically in terms of looking for prospective people we look at people who have to high and risen levels and done well in positions of public service and government. host: let us let the viewers take part. we will start with freddie calling from brooklyn, new york on the democratic line. caller: good morning. how are you doing? host: good. go ahead. onlyr: in my lifetime the

person was dick cheney. out an exploratory search for could not get takers. pick because with cheney's qualifications he had the qualifications to be president. dick cheney did a lot of the legwork with changing things with agencies by himself. that.ecided to approve think dickime i cheney was the most influential vice president. host: do you agree, joel? caller: and president bush's vice president cheney

had enormous influence and i think that was true before 9/11. hisafter 9/11 where experience as secretary of defense during the persian war became important. think, toward the end of the first term, president bush began to have misgivings about the advice vice president cheney had given him and during the second listen to viceto president cheney, but increasingly vice president cheney found himself on the losing end of the important discussions in the bush administration. by the end of the administration 's favorability ratings were in his20's -- administration favorability ratings were in the 20's. as freddie points out vice

president cheney came into the office with enormous credentials. he had been the chief of staff to president ford as a young man. leader inrs, he was a the house of representatives. he served as secretary of defense, he was the ceo of halliburton, he had been engaged in the period he was out of government. he had one of the best resumes of anyone selected as vice president. peopleere were a lot of who thought he made mistakes in terms of some of his evaluations of some of the intelligence and policies he pushed. one of the things -- it is a cautionary tale that just because somebody has experienced does not necessarily mean they will be successful.

abraham lincoln served one term in the house of representatives a dozen years before he was president. he had very little experience and yet, he is our consensus greatest president. sometimes presidential caliber waysof resists the formal we try and test it. host: we have done a lot of talking this morning about the democratic vice presidential slot. let us talk about the current vice president, mike pence. pence as you rate mike a vice president in the list of vice presidents? what does he bring to the trump ticket coming up in the fall? i will add something a follower asked which is how do

you think he has handled the pandemic president trump put him in charge of? guest: i think vice president ce has follow the patterns of vice presidents from both parties that began with vice president mondale. he has been an advisor, a troubleshooter, he has taken on assignments, sharing the task is then coronavirus prime example. he has also taken on diplomatic roles. every presidency is different pence hasresident responded to president trump's leadership style. one thing that has been distinctive about the vice

president has been that he has -- all vice presidents are supportive of the president and part of their job is to defend and support the administration's position. i do not recall any vice president in history who has gone to such an extent as vice president pence. he has been effusive in his praise of the president. he compared him to ronald reagan, theodore roosevelt, king david. he said he would be the best friend to the american military of any president in our history, which is quite a statement given george washington, ulysses grant, and dwight eisenhower were among the presidents. in terms of looking forward one of the advantages and attributes president trump has talked about in praising vice president pence

has been his ties and relationship with the evangelical community which is an important part of the republican base and president trump's base. i think that president trump would be looking to vice president pence in part to help thegize that base during 2020 campaign. i think the other thing vice president pence -- in one of the other questions it dealt with why do we not look at people outside conventional experience? we have a president who is the only president in history who had never held any office previously before being elected. one of the things vice president pence has provided is some sort of political awareness and has been a liaison who has worked with republican members of

congress, governors, and so forth. in terms of the pandemic and his handling of the task force, it is a little hard to tell exactly what his role has been doing the briefings. president trump has taken center stage and sort of -- vice president pence has been pushed aside. the pandemic and our handling of as onedemic is not, would hope, been great and i being given this responsibility and the problems that continue in such a glaring way, that he will have it a challenge in explaining what he does not bear response ability. host: randy is calling from

slaughter, louisiana on the independent line. caller: i want to make a comment on richard nixon. handlingite well in nikita. respond.ahead and guest: it is an important point. the vice presidency really began to grow significantly when richard nixon was vice president . it was during the nixon vice presidency that the office really moved away from the senate into the executive branch. vice president nixon took on foreign missions, diplomatic missions for president eisenhower. committees,xecutive he did a lot of political work. he was the first vice president to really turn the office into a

presidential springboard. the gentleman mentions the kitchen debate between vice president nixon and nikita crew where nixon acquitted himself well. successfulon was a vice president although the office had not nearly to the extent they did beginning with mondale. it was wise think for joe biden to limit his choice for vice president to women only? i'm going to read something that was written by the founder and president for the network of enlightened women. here is what she said about him doing that. womanmmitting to select a

at a debate in march before he figured out who would make the best running mate biden signaled he would not be picking his vp based on merit or what the country needed as the election approached. he restricted his pool of candidates exclusively to women to virtue signal, not to do what is best for women or the country ." was it smart for him to limit the choice to women only? guest: i am not sure exactly what were the considerations that led him to make that promise. before it was clear with the nominee would be i had written that if the democratic nominee man that the running mate

would be a woman and if the running mate was a woman, she would pick a man. i thought there might be some diversity on the ticket. would have been highly unlikely that, given where the country is right now, for the democratic party is right now, we would have ended two whiteticket of men on the democratic ticket. wasmately the question whether he might have left it open and considered some men who were minorities. i think one of the things vice president biden's promise spoke to was that we have come to a time in our history where there are a number of talented, able

women who were holding traditional positions. there are 17 democratic women in the senate. when walter mondale chose geraldine there were none. there are six democratic governors and when mondale made the pick there was only one who had just been elected. i think a quarter of the house of representatives right now are women. or maybe close to a quarter. in 1984 there were far fewer. positionving to a where a number of women of real excellence are moving into politics at the highest levels and i think vice president biden's statement was a recognition of that. goingher factor is that,

through the vice presidential selection process is a taxing, demanding process and if you determine at an early point that your choice is going to go in one direction, to have people go through the process who are not going to be seriously considered were serious contenders is, in some sense unfair to them,. host: you have a pic for who joe biden should pick? guest: no. i think it really is a choice -- i think it is difficult for an informedto make an recommendation. we do not have access to the information, we do not know what his relationship is

with different people we might be an, who he feels would effective governing partner with him. i think there are a number of people who are talented and able who are among those he is considering. search youn this have people you can look at and say different people have different strengths and weaknesses. that is always the case. you look at somebody like vice president cheney who presented himself with an overwhelming resume and yet, he was somebody there were questions about in terms of his health history. you can go down the list of any of the people who were selected in the past and they all had strengths and weaknesses.

that is part of the challenge vice president biden faces. us talk to bobby calling from jackson, mississippi on the democratic line. caller: how are you doing this morning? host: just fine. go ahead. caller: i think picking the right vice president is very important. picked joe biden and i think you made a good decision. commitmentade this thinkk a woman and i susan rice would be a good pick in my mind. thank you. host: has an ambassador or former ambassador ever served as vice president before? guest: yes in the sense that

anrge h w bush had been ambassador to the united nations. i think what is distinctive about ambassador rice is that she has not bee previously run for an elected office. was sargente shriver in 1972. while george w. bush was extraordinarily -- george h w , he was an extraordinary and hadved two terms been defeated twice. in 1980 andresident

had been the runner-up to president reagan. he clearly had more electoral experience than ambassador rice does, but he did not have a lot of electoral experience. he was viewed as a very effective candidate, a very good choice, and a very effective vice president. ambassador rice, from both her service in the united nations and as the national security advisor, has really been involved in diplomatic and national security matters at the highest level in a way that is relatively unusual. henry lodge who was richard nixon's running mate is another former ambassador to the united nations. he was ambassador when nixon picked him as the running mate which he had earlier been a

united states senator from massachusetts until he was defeated by john kennedy. earlier abouted daniel webster turning down the vice presidential slot. accepting the vice presidential slot and not becoming president, or running for vice president and your ticket not winning, is that a career under for a politician? you accepted the vice presidential slot and your ticket did not win or you never became president. does that mean your career is over? [laughter] guest: it really does not. franklin roosevelt was the vice presidential candidate in 1920 when james coxe and franklin roosevelt lost in a landslide. 12 years later he was elected to the first of four terms.

he has been the most successful in terms of presidential politics of unsuccessful vice presidential candidates. if you think about some other people who ran for vice was thet, earl warren losing vice presidential theidate in 1948 and became chief justice of the united states in 1953. pivotal role in brown v. board of education and caseser of other critical that are among the most important supreme court decisions. edmund muskie who ran a marvelous campaign, but was unsuccessful in 1968, became the secretary of state at the end of president carter's

administration. lloyd benson was the vice presidential candidate who lost in 1988 and became secretary treasury under president clinton. there have been a number of unsuccessful vice presidential candidates. paul ryan was unsuccessful in country 12 and became speaker of the house of representatives -- 2012 and became speaker of the house of representatives. there have been examples on both sides of the aisle of people being unsuccessful for running for vice president and later became successful. host: harrison is calling from south carolina on the democratic . good morning. caller: good morning. i have two questions. oftalked about the successes vice presidents in the past and

what they have gone on to do. my first question is based on the fact that i think if joe biden wins, he will be a one term president. we will probably be setting up a launchpad for the next president. first question is out of all the presidents in the u.s., going back to george washington, how many were vice presidents? the second question is are there any statutes or laws that regulate the conduct and role of the vice president? as you mentioned from nixon on the office has become more powerful and associated with the executive branch. those are my two questions and i will take the answers off the air. thank you. the first question was --

host: the first question was -- guest: number of presidents who were vice presidents. host: correct. guest: there were 14 of our 45 presidents who were vice president first. 45 first became president because their predecessor died or resigned and they were vice president who succeeded the presidency. presidents were elected president while vice president. richard nixon, who narrowly missed being elected president in 1968 iss elected

a former vice president. more than 30% of our presidents have been vice presidents. if vice president biden is successful, it would be 15 out of 46. by and large the office has grown not to changes in the constitution or statutes. it is through practices that have developed that brought the vice presidency into the executive branch and made the vice president an important troubleshooter. the vice president is a member of the national security council and there is that statutory requirement. statutes also certain that govern the conduct of vice presidents.

for instance, in terms of disclosure of information, preservation of certain records. i am not really an expert on those statutes and some of those became controversial during the bush-cheney years when vice president cheney resisted complying with some of the provisions and argue the vice presidency was not within the terms of those statutes. other vice presidents had complied with them, but there are some laws like that that apply to the office of vice president as well as other offices. host: we would like to thank joel k goldstein who is a authoriona professor of law and

of "the white house vice presidency: the path to significance, mondale to biden" for being with us this morning and walking us through the history and role of the vice president. thank you so much for being with us this morning. guest: thank you so much for having >> c-span's washington journal. everyday, we are taking your calls live on the air on the news of the day, and we will discuss policy issues that impact you. coming up sunday morning, the 19th editor at large aaron haynes will join us to discuss topics of campaign 2020. and on the anniversary of the nagasaki and hiroshima bombings, a historian. and with the director of nuclear studies institute. watch c-span's washington journal live at 7:00 eastern sunday morning.

during the discussion with your phone calls, facebook comments, texts, and tweets. has toptv on c-span2 nonfiction books and authors every weekend. coming up sunday, msnbc political analyst with her book. and how to create a more inclusive democratic party. she's interviewed by maria kumar. maryland republican governor larry hogan on his life and career with his book. watch book tv on c-span2, this weekend. >> u.s. house candidate cori bush is moving onto the general election after defeating longtime congressman william lacy clay in missouri's

democratic primary. if elected in november, she would become the first woman to represent missouri's first congressional district. she spoke to supporters in st. louis following her primary victory. [applause] >> ok. if you can hear me -- >> we can. >> loud and clear. >> we love you, cori. ms. bush: let me just say i can't do anything without first thinking -- first i've got to thank god. i would not be here. [applause] i've got to start with that.