you can follow her on twitter. also our email newsletter word for word offers a synopsis of the day's key events. sign up at c-span.org/connect. and before the convention's evening session watching c-span at 6:00 p.m. eastern for past convention speeches by actors, including christopher reeves, angie harmon, clint eastwood, tommy lee jones, and scarlett johansson. nouncer: "washington journal" continues. author of abianco,

book about the vice president. , in the research for this book, what did you learn about why mike pence wanted to serve as vice president under this president donald trump? meeting ire is a report on in the book, back in july 2016, his meeting with trump. in this meeting at the governor's residence of indiana, this is where he sealed the deal to become his running mate, he says he wants to help make america great again and ghost through a list -- goes through a list of where he agrees with trump on policy. the other thing i report on in the book, and you see this machinations of folks i talked with, he is also setting up his own presidential run. that is something he has been

doing in earnest since the end of 2008. he is playing a long game. i do not think those two things are mutually exclusive. you can do both. he certainly continues to do both. host: what do you make of him delivering his remarks from fort mchenry in baltimore? guest: good stage for him. bossi come up the maryland rnc committee man, it trump close advisor may that happen. pulling strings to get that done. for, and ioking think a lot of people are looking for how much of it is about 2020, and how much is about 2024? that is what i am listening for. wildot going to see message divergence in this thing.

maybe a little more pre-trump movement in terms of inches and centimeters on the messaging, to see if this give us indication. host: monday at the republican national convention, the vice andident made an appearance said we need at least four more years to make america great again. [laughter] guest: not very subtle. [laughter] i did not take that in the donald trump sense, but more sense of pence as an h w bush type of figure. when you talk to his folks, they ,ike to compare him with h w for obvious reasons. that really is their best way to the presidency. if there is a path, that is the

way through it. it gets a lot harder for him if it is just four years of trump. it gets a lot more competitive in this shadow primary we have now. host: for those that don't know the obvious reasons of comparing him to george h w bush, what are they? reagantwo terms of followed by h w bush running on those coattails in 1988. for a myriad of reasons, he is credited -- reagan is credited with that. comparepeople like to trump to a reagan type character in terms of what is transformational inside the republican party and american politics. -- insly, there is no america from this reelection campaign.

those analogies have their limits. team -- for his pence and his team, that is what they want. it certainly makes winning the republican nomination easier. isaac if you are supporting trump -- i think if you are supporting trump, it makes it harder in the general election. four years is a long time. i am old enough to remember march of 2020 back before the pandemic took over everything. [laughter] things seem to change quite often. host: for the viewers, our phone lines. republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. .ndependents, (202) 748-8002 your questions and comments about the vice president, the role he has played during his first term, and his service before that as governor and

congressman. bookobianco wrote the about him "piety and power." tell viewers who may not know what moment in mike pence's life , personal or professional, shaped him and made him who he is today. guest: a couple of fascinating ones. --ead about this in the book i should mention, "piety and power," now out in paperback purity -- out in paperback. thesisege, he wrote his about religious expressions of abraham lincoln. throughout his life and career, you see a tug and pull between his personal faith and his ambition. based on what we have seen, it looks like the ambition is more paramount as of right now.

it has not always been that way. was fascinating was that he was a senior in college, 21 years old down in hanover college in southern indiana near the ohio river, he writes this 37 page thesis which is all about abraham lincoln's struggles with -- talking about religion in the public sphere. what i saw, what i heard was pence's struggles. in 1978, heearlier had started his conversion to evangelical christianity, away from catholicism. that is a conversion that does not complete this arc until 16 years later, 1994 when he starts going to wayne with community church south of indianapolis. for me, that was interesting. when i talk with other

evangelical christians, people tell me periodically that not every conversion is a clean snap. it is not like they see the light immediately and become evangelical, or vice versa. what you do see is a long protracted decision making process. that is on his face, it is very personal, but i also see that in his political career. heking back to when seriously starts running for president, making those moves, that is a 12 year arc. it could end up being a 16 year arc. you hear a lot about how pence thinks he has always been running for president, and he has had that ambition before. in grade school he talked about it. it does not really come into play until 2008 after john

mccain loses to barack obama, and conservatives ask him to run for president. sameyou see there is the methodical conversion, in this case away from a rank and file , a rising star in the house republican congress, to someone who is running for president. according national donors. he decides to run for governor in large part to set up a run for president. -- when he joins the trump ticket, the thinking was, among some advisors that they would run in 2020 after trump lost. now that window is pushed to 2024. if you look at both of those things, you see a methodical approach to everything.

unifyinghat was a key pledge here when understanding mike pence. host: let's go to susan in california. our first caller on the republican line. caller: please let me talk for a while. don't hang up. are you there? host: we are listening. caller: are you telling me that kamala harris is not playing the long game? say.s one thing i've to biden is excommunicated from the catholic church. he is not allowed to take communion. that is because of his stance on abortion. obama, you tell me about whatever his name is. did you know barack obama sent pamphlets to israel against netanyahu during the election?

when i was there, obama came and talked to the people directly not to vote for netanyahu. i call that interference. did you know that carrie went to iran and told the people not to do business with this administration, but to wait until the democrats got in? cuba.is a lot against and peru. -- ie a daughter improve have a daughter in peru, she told me what that was like. cuba,a boss who came from she told me what that was like. don't you tell me that socialism is not bad and that biden would not go to the left. host: ok. i think -- when you hear

quote --,"mbition, it depends who we are talking about. which side of the political spectrum folks are on. if your left of center, liberal, progressive and you hear "ambition" in mike pence, you might think that is a bad thing. if you hear addition in kamala harris, you might think it is a good thing. when i was reporting this ash someone brought this to me and i thought it was a great point. ambition itself is neither bad nor good, it is what you do with it. a pence friend was talking about this with me. what you decide to do with it from there is what defines a person. he has ambition. everybody who runs for the white house has ambition. to me, but i size that the when he -- in 2008

running for president, becomes more paramount. you see that in political calculations, political calculations like 2015 when the religious freedom battle in indiana, gay marriage battle, the same-sex marriage battle out there. you see that in how he handled that. hissee that in how he gets way onto the ticket with trump. there were tough calculations there that ended up working in his favor in july 2016. you see it inside the white house. exactly to kamala harris because i do not know her as well. it would not surprise me to find she has ambition. her own way not too long ago in the democratic primary. i think all expectations are that she has a strong future inside the party as well. host: escrows can't.

-- let's go to wisconsin. caller: i would like to see mike --ce's religious ideologies are just as bad as what trump has. there is no difference in the person. he is against everything that is right. he is not one of these people that goes out and talks to faith the way it was taught in the bible. mike pence is a bad person. i do not know if people realize that, but he is. host: what are his religious ideologies from your research? -- when hegelical was living south of indianapolis , he attended a nondenominational mega church. commit he was

attending another evangelical church. congress, myn understanding was that he tended to church hop. now that he is vice president he goes to church is in prince george's county every now and then. he has spoke at catholic churches. question,ler's religion is personal. own style of's religion is not my style, certainly not a lot of other people style. but, there are a lot of people who do agree with mike pence. host: and he shares that with his wife. guest: he does. the two of them both strong evangelicals. for people deciding on whether you want to support him, i think it is instructive -- constructive to look at policy.

you see that sometimes in the social battles. what i have found looking into this was reflections inside foreign and middle east policy. viewers to gert -- two google "dispensationalism, cope -- that playsonalism," into it. you heard a little bit of that last night with mike pompeo giving his speech from jerusalem. i would look into that area. book,when you're out this what did you learn about the conversations mike and karen's pence had about religion and running as the president's ?unning mate before the campaign he was known to have marital affairs.

guest: number one, karen has -- karen and mike do everything together. quite real.ship is it is not fake. they have a very close relationship. she is also his most important political advisor. for me, when i was reporting this and watching what they're doing now, it is hopeful to understand them as a joint political unit, a political team. that forms the core of pence's inner circle. if you take a step out from there, you start to get people like mark short, kellyanne , but karen ismith the only one really on the inside. looking to access hollywood -- a

report in the book. there had been reporting that they were ready to drop off the ticket. that was discussed based on who i spoke with. pushwere not ready to trump off, that probably would have been his best chance. i reported more for business insider just last week, there was an effort to remove trump as -- led by a led bay series of -- including kitty walsh. there was a phone call that weekend made by donors who said they were acting on behalf of republican party chairman reince priebus to pence's top aide, and they said they were ready to replace trump on the ticket with pence.

they did not even have to say yes, just go ahead and get the gears moving. marty, the chief advisor to pence said no. and there is a good reason politically and strategically for that. roundlyys, trump was expected to lose. if you are pence into his people, you look at that in say we will be catapulted to the front of the line for 2020. all you have to do is wait. the same play that mitch mcconnell is making, everyone was thinking that way. asventional wisdom was that toxic as it is sometimes. to saturday, october 8, 2016, they are flying to rhode island for a fundraiser. they had canceled public appearances and had certainly canceled media appearances, but they are still doing a fundraiser.

they are still on the team. as they get on the plane to fly pencede island, karen looks at marty, marty says how are you feeling about this? know, wels him, you knew what we were signing up for when we joined the ticket. we have got to ride this out. i think you see this mentality carrying forward. political pragmatism of where they are. it carried throughout the administration. i remember when the book was published last year it was published the day that nancy pelosi announced the impeachment inquiry. what i used to hear a lot, the question i used to get is, is mike pence going to push trump off the cliff? no, he's not. he can't. strategically, tactically it doesn't make sense.

why would you pence off the republican base -- why would you piss off the republican base? i try to think about where the andal decision-makers are, rollout helpful sources to try and lay out there thinking. hope you got there running. host: we go to palm harbor, florida. caller: good morning. after then is, convention last week for the democrats, they said joe biden was this perfect worsen, had all , thenntegrity and honesty pam bondi come on last night and set all these things about hunter with the ukraine and china.

another family member with housing issues. is the other part about it plagiarism. when he ran a few years ago for president. the other part of that is he lied about where he graduated in his class. he is not that nice a guy. my question is, is all that true what pam bondi said? , i do notlobianco know if you have had a chance to fact check last night's speeches. guest: not all of them. i did catch the tail end of the bondi speech. i know inside of trump world there is a deep interest in investigating what happened in ukraine with regards to full period -- hunter biden. there is a lot of movement and they -- in that area.

a number of things were debunked. i urge folks to replay the impeachment investigation, listen through that. i doubt that people will universally agree with what any side has their, but there sure was a lot of information. we have been down this path before. host: you talk about the vice president's ambitions in 2024, do you think the president will endorse mike pence if he runs? guest: great question. can he carry the mantle of trump? i know they are hoping for it. a lot depends on how the field ships up. -- how the field shapes up. will donald trump, jr. make a run? ranking of ther 2024 republican chatter primary.

pence is at the top because he is the defective front runner at factoment -- de front-runner at the moment. does trump junior run? if the family runs, you have to assume the endorsement would go with the family. if they don't, it opens it up quite a bit. a lot of people want to carry the trump banner. you see that from florida governor ron desantis. do conservative populism you get neo josh hawley -- conservative you get from josh hawley. a lot of people are vying for that. the flip is, does anybody want to carry the banner if there is a trump loss november 3? i do not know. done the proper positioning to not have to carry

that. pence does not have that option. he is tied very closely to trump. that has its benefits, that has its problems. in terms of actually getting an endorsement, that is a good one. the euphemism people use for trump is mercurial. we are not can i know and it could change. host: -- caller: i want to talk about the presidents. when we are voting for these presidents, about 14 of our presidents have been -- running,he bushes were before that they showed who they only way we could

ever have peace was to have the new world order. that also means they're trying to get one world religion. ofy say christianity is one the only things that keeps the new world order down because the christians won't cone -- won't conform to the other religions. break all the middle-class people. everybody in the world, every country would be more equal. they kill 4000 foreigners in south africa and run them off to mandela after mandela got in there, those people were run off their land and murdered. know, before we vote for another president, i think that's why they hate donald trump so bad. he is patriotic. he is a national man. they don't want to hear that. they don't want to listen to that because they want everybody, normal people, the , the people who are less

important. everybody that is up higher like the bushes and people like that, they want those people to run the world and everybody else become submissive. they don't want to middle-class. host: i heard your point. one thing to pick up on when reporting the book i think it is not seen as often come i think it is important to understand is -- [indiscernible] -- in terms of the very strong support that was building for trump among the conservative base in 2015. for pence, there is a history to that and it is with his radio show. he was doing radio in the 1990's.

indianapolis, but had an overnight spot so people weren't really listening to him. and the largest city of the state, the metropolitan core. where they were listening to him, where he was on and popular was in cities like kokomo, shelbyville, these other parts and towns. that is who he would take calls from. in the 1990's, he had a fascinating producer dan jensen, who still works there. we were talking about how he would run the boards, what kind of calls he would take. people love talking about bobby knight and basketball. i laughed when trump was going through monday, picking through getstates and whatnot, he to indiana and he doesn't talk about mike pence, mitch daniels, or anyone else.

he talks about bobby knight and lou holtz, him as notre dame coach. were the people that came out for trump. own modestce, as his sized celebrity and indiana picked up on this as well. he knew what people respond to. discussions about bobby knight throwing chairs across the floor , basketball, one division to the entire state, those were the kinds of things people liked talking about. you also hear politics as they come in as well. that was the world from which he derives this political antenna. you see that carry forward a point where in 2016, right which the main primaries basically determines that trump be the nominee, pence knows well enough to give a halfhearted

endorsement to ted cruz with high praise for donald trump. that was enough to keep the door open for him to join trump's ticket. he has a strong political antenna built from his radio days, one of the most important assets he built on radio. host: dennis in toledo, iowa. caller: why does pence and the republicans blame the democrats for abortion when it was richard nixon and a republican supreme court that made abortions legal? cheatst donald trump who on women the reason women seek abortions? guest: yeah. i don't know about that. i can tell you that pence is

staunchly pro-life. he has flipped on a few issues since joining trump's ticket, he is not free-trade anymore. ast of, but modified, not fervent as he used to be. pro-life, anti-a motion command i trace, whatever term you want to use, he has never changed on that. he has been consistent on that throughout his life and career. i suspect that would form the bedrock for his run for in 2024.y if there is one area of consistency with mike pence, it is pro-life. host: to alabama, patrick, a republican. caller: i would like to say that christians -- with all the christian critics who have called in, this is very simple. the truth is based on the bible. the bible is all truth.

promise made, promise kept. that is based on the truth. the way i look at it, it is simple. if you want freedom for your kids come about trump. if you want socialism, look into that and see what kind of future they kids is got. host: ok. , how does the president view the vice president and the role he has played over the past few years? aloof at has been times. there certainly is respect their. beenber, they have only working together four years. their relationship does not predate july 2016, spring of 2016 when they started having meetings. it has developed quite a bit since then. i think they both have found their way into their respective

roles. you can see a lot about pence -- there is an article from the washington post taking a deep dive recently. some of that is what any vice president does. cheney-bushe relationship was significantly different. even the biden-obama relationship. pence's people like to refer back to george h w bush, not getting in way of the president. that is the role of the vice president, at least in that model. there was talk about whether trump was going to remove him from the ticket. obviously that has not happened. that was a real discussion last year, that discussion as best i can tell ended last year. but ther did not stop, talk inside did stop.

there have been rocky patches for sure. does that carry forth in pence's favor? i do not know. it is our to tell. if it were -- it is hard to tell. host: gretna, florida. democrat. caller: thank you. also i have to say it is ridiculous that people can see what donald trump is doing. we are stuck in a rut right now. the country is divided. i don't see how we are going to come together because when you sit there and say the democrats are going to cause chaos, come into your neighborhoods, no police, they are not trying to get rid of the police, they want to get the police more training. people want to say he's trying to get rid of the police, that it's going to be they want to

get rid of your guns. it is the same campaign four years ago. the same thing. . host: is he the same campaign? -- is he running the same campaign? guest: the vice president is doing the polished version of trump's messaging. , can andion for me is will depend style back -- can pence dial back? that on theu put shelf to become the running mate. dog with an attacked our president, he avoids the insults typically. looking forward, the question is, would pence revert back to the nice guy thing or would he stay forward with more of a trump attack? the party now seems to be more

trump and less genteel. it is a question for him and his team. fourth,king at november or whenever we get election results commit to see how pence starts changing. forward to tonight to see coverage of the republican national convention tonigh-- continues with mike pence, karen pence, and kellyanne conway. watch live on c-span. listen with the c-span radio app. live streaming at c-span.org. newslettermail offers a synopsis of the day's key events. and before the evening session,

watch c-span at 6:00 p.m. eastern for past convention speeches by actors including christopher reeves, clint eastwood, tommy lee jones, and scarlett johansson. eversconsin governor tony participated in a discussion on school safety during the coronavirus pandemic. the governor also addressed the violence that began in wisconsin in response to the police shooting of jacob blake. from the aspen institute, this is an hour. >> hello and welcome to our discussion brought to you by the aspen institute. i am a correspondent and u anditute host from wam npr in washington, d.c. i'm happy to serve as your moderator. as a mother of two children, you can imagine the term back to

school is utterly lot throughout my household. especially as my daughters prepared to do their best job to prepare for another semester of middle school online. we were frustrated with parts of our education system before the pandemic, let alone now. navigating that system has become even more difficult. is in person, online, or a hybrid approach, researchers with the aspen institute say that schools can't bear the burden alone. they need more support to help ensure that families, students, and educators have what they need. recommendations are the need to foster collaboration, the need to fully leverage federal funds and streamline eligibility and reimbursement, and the need to secure additional human capital.

how can governors and mayors use their offices to address these growing needs? how can they engage and empower families to create effective solutions? joining me is wisconsin governor tony evers. governor ofth wisconsin and a democrat. he served as the wisconsin state superintendent of public instruction. thank you for being here. also with us is tim keller, the democratic mayor of albuquerque, new mexico. his office launched -- [inaudible] it also oversees youth connect. [inaudible] and