every day we are taking here, on the news and the day and to discuss policy issues that impact you. the host of cnn's reliable source to about his newest book. historian crying surely talks about campaign 2020 and the history of both campaigns. watch c-span's washington journal, made tuesday morning. be sure to join the discussion with your phone call, facebook comments, text messages and tweets. on tuesday, treasury secretary steven mnuchin testifies before the reform committee on the need for additional economic relief for children, workers and families and the implementation of key stimulus programs approved earlier this year. onch beginning at 1:00 p.m. c-span, ondemand at c-span.org or the sin they have on the c-span radio app. >> governor thomas of new york, republican nominee on his

whirlwind campaign around the nation, making a plea for world peace and striking at communist elements in government. gop leader draws big audiences. the next step is portland, oregon with mrs. dewey by his side. he makes another stirring bid -- he has at least one ardent supporter. those are some of the region's finest specimens. we will know soon. in november is just around the corner. president truman continues his swing around the circuit. the chief executive get a president. he writes to the home of his own -- his old friend cactus -- aand it's a war record warm welcome on route to. he visits the alamo. the historic shrine of texas

independence. in austin, a big crowd to greet the president as he continues his campaign for the lone star state's 23 electoral votes. on his tour, the president spoke and visited with sam rayburn, former soup -- former speaker of the house. in fort worth, to try to bring the southern vote back into line. >> "dewey defeats truman," the famous headline from the 1948 presidential campaign. as we know,. truman won the election. his rival, thomas e. dewey had to accept defeat. we are live from the roosevelt hotel in nyc, which in november posted the republican

headquarters and thomas dewey's campaign. he used this we whenever he was in new york during 12 years of governor. he and his family and the closest aides gathered in this room on election night. corning me is richard norton smith. it is november 2, 1948 at the roosevelt hotel. what happens here? >> well, the day began with a virtual unanimity in the nation's press corps that this election was over. it was thomas e. dewey's to lose. there were pollsters who had stopped polling after labor day. they were so convinced there was no contest. gov. dewey and mrs. do we want to vote at midday not too far from here.

he got out of his car and decided to walk back to the hotel. reporters thought it was a good sign. he was a new dewey,a warmer dewey that people have seen on the campaign trail. they had an election night tradition of having dinner with their friends, robert strauss who was a publisher. the family went there for an early dinner. while they were there, some disturbing returns came in from connecticut in particular. thomas dooley had relied along the accountants as much as anyone else, almost -- always had a respect for the numbers. the numbers were a little out of sync with what the pollsters had predicted. that was at the beginning of the

night long ordeal in this suite. the secret service had sent to their top agents here. they thought thomas dooley was going to be president like everyone else. it went on and on. it out to 3:00 in the morning, the agents began to slip away. that was their nonverbal way of communicating a truly historic upset was taking place. at one point before dawn, the governor of new york pulled his head through the door and said it to a friend, what do you know? the little son of a bitch won. his former -- his formal concession came later in the day. >> before we get to that point where he looks out of the sweet and sees a secret service is gone, there is a confidence at the roosevelt hotel. describe that. >> the confidence was based upon, very understandably, based

upon the fact there was a consensus among people on the right, people on the left, not only that thomas e. dewey was going to win. this is what is fascinating. when you see the iconic image come up thomas e. dewey is known as the man who snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. if you go back and read the contemporary press, everybody from drew pearson to walt whitman, then not only expected him to win, they had praise for the campaign he had run. they thought it was high minded, and they had a lot of criticism for the campaign harry truman ran against him. it is an example of how a snapshot of history can be superseded very quickly. >> we want to show our viewers from that night early on when the returns are starting to come and, thomas e. dewey's campaign

manager and the confidence they had early on. take a look. >> champagne flows freely. victory is in the air. the first returns had truman in the lead, but republicans are not worried. and then he brings good news secured >> we now know that governor do we will carry new york state by 50,000 votes and he will be the next president of the united states. [applause] >> white were republicans are confident they could get the white house in 1948? >> by the way, carrying york state was no small feat. it was the first time in 20 years of republican had managed to do it. new york was the cradle of the new deal. for him to announce that and it

predicted based upon that that victory was in the air, that was perfectly understandable. 1948 -- what we did not know going into 1948, america had become a new deal country. the death of franklin roosevelt had ended one presidency. the approaching government, the expectation that government would be more involved in insuring prosperity, the government would be used to fight economic downturns as the new deal had in the 30's and 40's. whether or not he believed in the success of those efforts, the assumption was that when fdr died, the new deal died with him. the set of expectations -- the relationship between the average american and his government

which had been transformed by the new deal, that was not the case. on election day in 1948, a americans enjoyed record prosperity, record employment. the reasons the republicans in spite of that thought they could win was very simple -- here truman. we forget today that here a true man in his first term was a very unpopular president. there was talk about the little man from missouri. truman had a very difficult assignment. every president after a war has a process of readjusting economically, culturally, the agriculture sector. inflation, strikes -- all of that came due on here trimming's watch. the consensus in 1946 and 1947 was he did not handle it very well. it was so bad the republicans to

congress in 1946 which only fed their expectation that the presidency would fall into their lap two years later. >> how are republicans viewing the truman administration at this point? >> that is a great question. the problem as there was no such thing as the republicans. that was part of thomas e. dewey's problem. the party was evenly split between what is called the eastern establishment, the old teddy roosevelt wing of the party. charles hughes was in that tradition. thomas e. dewey represented that. opposed to that were the conservatives, but westerners, many of them isolationists who rallied around bob rttaft.

he had precipitated the split. that never really healed. when republicans took congress, it was the conservatives who became the face of the party. on the other hand, you had people like thomas e. dewey, many of the governors who were much less cost out to the new deal, much more willing to work with its promises. >> thomas e. dewey is our contender to night. he ran, he lost, but he changed history anyway. here he is launching his campaign in 1948 and the criticism he has of the truman administration. >> on january 20, we will enter in a new era. there will begin in washington the biggest on raveling, on spiraling operation and our nation's history.

>> what do you make of what he says there? >> that does to his strength and the perception after a's witness. thomas e. dewey had been governor of new york for several years. he had untangled it, on traveled a lot of bureaucratic cobwebs. he had taken what many people would see as a hybrid of conservative and liberal ideas to make government more responsive, in some ways to make it smaller. taxes were reduced to make it from the year to the private sector. when he had done in new york, he proposed to do on the national level. one critical element that sets thomas e. dewey apart his civil rights. he is in the forefront on that

issue. new york state is the first state in america to pass anti- discrimination legislation. thomas e. dewey took them very seriously. it did not meet with universal agreement, even with republicans in new york. >> we are talking about thomas e. dewey's campaign. we will be joined a little bit later by his son, thomas e. dewey, jr. we will be taking your phone calls this evening. you can start dialing in startrichard norton smith. we are working our way back. let's go to the fall campaign and the issues that are there. is hillary truman popular? >> he is not popular at the beginning of the campaign. it is a reversal of what we see now. people were content with record

high employment, but they did not attribute it to harry truman. also, global issues were eight huge factor here. one of the things that truman has been criticized in retrospect but at the time was widely praised was running a campaign of national unity in which he tried -- first of all, the idea of bipartisan foreign policy is part of thomas e. dewey's political allegis -- legacy. it is something that began in the 1944 campaign. he supported truman on the airlift to berlin. he supported truman on recognizing the state of israel. at the same time, he wanted to increase the defense budget by $5 billion. there is no doubt he would have been -- he supported the marshall plan, but he would have asked more questions before just turning american tax dollars over two left-wing governments

in europe. it was a campaign that in many ways is what we claim we want in a candidates. it was not hitting below the belt, there were not a lot of possible -- personalities, there were not a lot of name- calling. >> is that showing up in the polls? in a do we vs. truman hypothetical? >> the popular notion is that thomas e. dewey drowned in a sea of complacency. he was taken by surprise by what happened in the suite that night. the fact is, he knew. he was the first candidates to have a full-time polling unit as part of his campaign. he listened to the pollsters. he had an appreciation of their art. he was well aware of the fact his lead was slipping. there were people who came to

him in the last 10 days of the campaign and he acknowledged that the lead was slipping. to one of them, he said "never talk when you are a had a." >> what happens next then? are the democrats behind truman? are they solid behind -- >> i will tell you who was solid behind it true men. one of the factors behind the loss, they had organized labor which they saw as an attack on many of the rights and privileges that had developed under the new deal. it put thomas e. dewey in an awkward position. by and large, he agreed with much of the bill. at the same time, he is governor of new york. this is a labor state. this is a liberal state. in some ways, he was walking on

a fine line. what it did was organize labor has nothing ever did. 1948 was the single election in which organized labor played the biggest role throughout america. in race after race after race, the democratic ticket ran a head of here truman in part because of his relative unpopularity and also because organized labor turned out in record numbers and voted democratic. >> or the other players in the democratic party at this time? >> you have four candidates in the 1948 election. you have former vice president henry wallace who believes that truman has started the cold war. truman is a tune to the possibility of peace with the soviet union. on the foot -- on the far right, you have thurman who walked out of the democratic convention because a young man introduced

and passed a pro civil rights plank. so the conventional wisdom was, this would hurt truman. he would lose votes on the left, he would lose votes on the right. in fact what it did was, it made. trim and a man in the middle. neither thurman or wallace turned out to have anywhere near the impact it was believed it would have. >> the economy at the time, what is it like? >> the economy is truman's great strength. as i say, record employment. more than that, what he did very shortly in his campaign, he does to thomas e. dewey what he did to the republican congress. the fact of the matter was, a democratic president riding the crest of prosperity in the fall of 1948 could point a finger at

the republican congress and in the fact suggest people. truman was not bashful about doing it. if you return republicans to complete control of the white house and congress, you can expect to see a return to the economic policies that produced the great depression. it was not that long since the great depression. people to talk members were very sharp. that came into play without a doubt. >> what about the role of communism? >> it is fascinating. truman had taken some heat for introducing this charge that fdr had inadvertently allowed congress to take root in his administration. in 1948, i think we have a -- the first nationally broadcast presidential debate revolved

around one issue. shall the communist party in america be outlawed? thomas e. dooley, takes the civil libertarian view that, no, it should not be outlawed for reasons he expounded. his opponent took the position that it should be outlawed. it was a turning point. that is also the same year that do we have to figure out how to handle the issue. >> we are going to get to that debate a little bit later coming up. first i want to show our viewers what tom dewey had to say about communists in 1948. >> some >jeer at the problem calling it a red herring. some people get panicky about it. i do not belong to either of

those groups. we must neither ignore or outlaw them. if we ignore them, we give them the of unity that they want. if we all love them, we give them the marty down that they want even more. we well in the government we get to last january -- we will keep the american people informed or there are, who they are, and what they are up to. >> that is classic dewey. that is very much what his approach was. it raises the fascinating prospect that had he been elected in 1948, we would have never heard of joe mccarthy. mccarthyism would have never

entered the language. senator mccarthy, who was in many ways a product of republican frustration over losing an election that they thought was a sure thing. tom dewey was a political boss, other things. he would have controlled the republican party nationally. i can tell you, he would have never allowed a joe mccarthy to rear his head. >> we talk some domestic issues -- we talked some international issues. >> we are well into the cold war. dweey is supportive of the marshall plan. he supports nato. to some degree, he had put in america's economy on a cold war footing.

dewey is supportive of all that. if anything, he thinks we need to spend more money on defenses. he thinks we have neglected conservative forces. for example, charles de gaulle who is out of power in preference -- in france. he thinks a creed of american diplomacy could put people like that to good use. >> how does he differ from the other prominent republicans in the party at that time? who are they? >> bob taft, mr. republican from ohio, is fair to say he was the champion of the isolationist wing of the republican party. that is to say, the wind profoundly suspicious of

international organizations like the u. n. suspicious of litter on the korean war. suspicious of projecting american military power around the world as opposed to building up a american defenses here at home. former president herbert hoover would have been in that camp as well. the thomas e. dewey is somebody who had morphed. from a young man, he had been an isolationist. one of the interesting things is to watch him become a committed internationalists and a champion of bipartisan foreign policy. >> given that, what is the impa of that attitude on all of his presidential bid? he runs in 1940, 1944, 1948. >> i think it was safe to say it was statesmanlike. it did not win him any votes. in 1944 there was a significant

conflict between thomas e. dewey and fdr. they disagreed over the united nations. specifically, would the united nations have an army that it could employ a without first securing the permission of member states at the united states? franklin d. roosevelt said, yes, he supported that. thomas e. dooley was not supportive of that. he said later on that history was proven i was right. >> to talk about the divide in the republican party over international issues. do they come back together in temper the 1948 campaign? taft and dewey winds come back together? >> it was very shrewd on his

part to see that as the achilles heel. to try to almost eliminate dewey and suggest if you vote for this man that we are right to get is the midwest conservative republican party. to be fact,dewey did very little. him and taft despise each other. their rivalry is one of the great intellectual contests in american history. it is about something. it is not just about personal ambition. it is about a different view of the world, different view of government at home, a different view of what the republican party stands for, a different view of what abraham lincoln's legacy is. >> tonight we are coming to you live from the roosevelt hotel here in new york city to talk about thomas dewey.

this is our 14th week series. our first phone call is brian in springfield, illinois. go ahead. >> thank you so much for the series. mr. smith, we still miss you here in springfield. i had a question about 1952. i remember reading about and illinois senator who was a taft supporter and a convention here in chicago. he went up to nominate taft and wag his finger at dewey who said you had led us down the wrong path twice. of course he lost to eisenhower. what role did he play convincing people to play -- to select

nixon, and what kind of role that he play in the campaign? >> he was instrumental in getting eisenhower into the race. i will tell you a story. at this point, eisenhower was over in paris as the commander of nato. he really did not want to leave. he did not want to sully himself by campaigning actively for the nomination. at one point,dewey wrote a letter. no copy exists. his secretary for years told me this story. he writes the letter, she mailed it. it in it, do we says that if you don't come home and actively seek the nomination, my fear is that the delegates will nominate douglas macarthur. that was the ultimate hot button to push with eisenhower. three shortly after the letter was received, he heard the call

of duty and came home. we talk about the split between taft and dewey, it was never more dramatic than that night when he whacked his finger at dewey and said you took us down the road of defeat twice. dewey had the evidence because the next night he was able to announce 87 delegates for eisenhower. finally, he was more responsible than anyone else for richard nixon been on the ticket. he spotted him as a young talent in 1948. he brought into new york to speak at the annual dinner of the republican party. he sat down, he took the cigarette holder out of his mouth. he said, making a promise. don't get fat. don't be lazy trade some day you

can be president. >> we will go back to those moments later on in the show. the will talk about his legacy and what he was able to accomplish even though he was not successful for the white house. first, let's hear from a shell from kansas city, missouri. >> giddy dewey campaign actually exploit his ties with the organization in kansas city? some of the things they did back then helped him get in the position he was at. thank you. >> that is a very good question. no, they did not. that was part of dewey's approach which was very consciously to stay away from personal attacks, to keep this thing on a very high plane. some would say vapid, content free.

bearing little resemblance to modern attack campaigns. >> let's go back to the primary. we worked our way back, fall campaign, general election. let's go to the primary. set the stage for us. who else is running? >> well, of course, bob taft is running and has a substantial following, not just in the midwest, but throughout the country. harold stasesson, who, before he became something of a comical figure, who ran every four years to various levels of disdain, was, in fact, a very formidable candidate. and then you had arthur from michigan who reminded a lot of people of the old fred allen character, senator foghorn. he was the quintessential sort of potbellied and pompous -- but he'd become a statesman. arthur vandenberg had undergone this conversion from isolationist internationalist

tom dewey was to emulate, so you had -- it was a pretty distinguished field and it was by no means a sure thing. other person who wanted to run although he never formally announced his candidacy, was douglas mcarthur who was in the jungles of asia but his agent in wisconsin saw to it that his name was on the ballot and of course, one other candidate, who went to wisconsin, and saw his campaign end there, was the 1940 nominee of the party, wendell wilke. >> let's talk about the impact of the oregon primary and the debate you touched on earlier. why is it important? >> it's important for a number of reasons. first of all, i'm sure it's on youtube, i'm sure it's easy to get. anyone who is watching what passes for debates at the moment among the republican candidates, or, quite frankly, who has watched the fall "debates" in

recent years between the opposing parties, i would just urge you, go and listen to the duey stassen debate. it is as close in a modern context to lincoln-douglas as anything could be. it is not a collection of sound bites. on the contrary, it is an opportunity -- i believe it was an hour -- for these two men to develop thoughtful, opposing viewpoints on a very critical and very polarizing issue in america, and to do it in a way that raised the public standard of discourse as opposed to lowering it. >> we have a little bit of that debate. let's listen in and we'll talk about it. >> there's no such thing as a constitutional right to destroy all constitutional rights. there's no such thing as a freedom to destroy freedom. the right of man to liberty is

inherent in the nature of man. to win it, and to maintain it requires courage and sacrifice and it also requires intelligence and realism and determination in the establishment of the laws and the systems of justice to serve mankind. i submit that the communist organization in america and in the freedom loving countries of the world should be outlawed. >> here's an issue of the height principle in practical application. people of this country are asked to outlaw communism. that means this, shall we in america, in order to defeat a totalitarian system which we detest, voluntarily adopt the method of that system? i want the people of the united states to know exactly where i

stand on this proposal, because it goes to the very heart of the qualification of any candidate for office and to the inner nature of the kind of a country we want to live in. i am unalterably, wholeheartedly, unswervingly against any scheme to write laws outlawing people because of their religious, political, social or economic ideas. i'm against it because it's a violation of the constitution of the united states and of the bill of rights, and clearly so. i'm against it because it's immoral and nothing but totalitarianism itself. i'm against it because i know, from a great many years experience in the enforcement of the law, that the proposal wouldn't work, and, instead, it would rapidly advance the cause of communism in the united states and all over the world. >> richard norton smith, what's the impact of this debate on

dewey's primary bid? >> in the immediate sense, it won him the victory in oregon which was absolutely critical. he had fallen behind. he had gone in as the pre-emptive favorite, having been the nominee in 1944, and then stassen had done well in the early primaries so it all came down to this extraordinarily dramatic confrontation over this one issue. that's dewey at his best. and there are a lot of people after the fact who thought, if he had only talked like that with that degree of specificity and conviction and credibility, until november of 1948, that maybe the result of the election would have been different. >> how many people are listening to this debate at the time? >>60 million -- 60 million people it's estimated tuned into the dewey-stassen radio debate. >> and the role of radio at that

time? radio was the chief medium by which the news was disseminated and of course this is another aspect of tom dewey. he had come to new york in the 1920's, not necessarily wanting to be a lawyer. he wanted to be an opera singer, which surprises people, and you heard his voice. it's a very cultured voice, a very trained voice. some people thought it lacked spontaneity, but it's also true that it was the one republican voice that, on the radio, was able to hold the magical franklin roosevelt to something of a draw. >> what if people could have seen that debate? would it have a different outcome? >> that's a great question. dewey liked television. dewey thought television was -- it was like the courtroom, you know, it was -- as a young man, he had become famous as the man who broke up the rackets in new york, who was the gangbuster and inspired all of these hollywood

movies and radio shows like "mr. district attorney" and if you think about it, a television studio is not terribly dissimilar from a courtroom. the strength he had in the courtroom, the ability to make his case, to connect, whether it was with a jury or with viewers, there are some early television kinescopes in his third race for governor, for example, where he is very effective in front of the camera and i think he probably wished, in retrospect, that he could have run the 1948 campaign in front of a television camera. >> let's go to the g.o.p. convention in philadelphia in 1948. how did he get the nomination? were there ballots? >> yeah, in fact there were several ballots. dewey is the last republican candidate who required more than one ballot to be nominated. even though he had turned the tide, if you will, in oregon, there was still determined opposition led by, above all,

senator taft, and to a lesser degree at that point harold made a name for himself as a so-called boy governor of minnesota in his early 30's, a real prodigy. of course, dewey was a real prodigy. anyway, it took, i believe, three ballots. and then of course you had to pick a vice president. and he wanted earl warren who was a very popular governor of california, and warren would not agree. four years later, he would, to his regret. but instead, to unify the party, dewey picked the governor of ohio, taft's friend, fellow conservative, a man named john bricker, and one of the slogans was, the war will end quicker with dewey and bricker. >> let's get to a phone call. marvin in los angeles. go ahead. caller: thomas e. dewey was a reasonably young man in 1953 and he, of course, was very

influential in general eisenhower running. was dewey offered a job by eisenhower after all his v.p. governor warren of california was offered the job of chief justice? >> that's a great question. there is some debate over it. i believe he was informally approached, shall we put it, you know, about the supreme court. when you stop to think about it, really nothing else made sense, except perhaps secretary of state and there he had the next best thing, maybe better, his long-time political ally and his kissinger, john foster dulles. one of the things about dewey that is often overlooked is the extent to which he brought into the american political process a whole generation of very talented people. i mean, dwight eisenhower, richard nixon are the most obvious, but there's a whole host of people who would remain,

some of them here in new york, but others, kim the white house press secretary, to this day regarded as the best press secretary in white house history. he earned the job in new york under tom dewey. herbert brownell, the attorney general under eisenhower, was dewey's campaign manager, and the list is a very long one. >> richmond, virginia, you're next. caller: hello? >> you're on the air, go ahead. we can hear you >> caller: i'm sorry, can you hear me? >> we can. caller: it's an interesting subject. this was the first presidential election, my mother, a life-long republican, voted in and one of the things she told me was that she found dewey unattractive because of -- she mentioned his greasy hair and mustache. my main interest was understanding the role a future major player in the democratic

party, lyndon johnson, played in this election. >> well, l.b.j. tried to get elected himself to the senate in texas so he was not a significant factor in the national, in the presidential race. dewey's appearance is revealing in a number of ways. dewey was someone who, i think, today would be in despair of the handlers. dewey could not be handled. there were people throughout his career who said, you know, tom, you'd shave off that mustosh and get your teeth fixed. he had a couple of missing teeth from a high school football scrimmage. well, he kept the mustache and kept the teeth, or the non-teeth, for a simple reason, francis dewey liked him the way he was. but you're right, there are times when people, in print, compared his appearance to charlie chaplin or adolph hitler, and in 1948 or 1944,

little brown mustaches were probably not a terribly politically potent weapon. >> let me give you a look at the 1948 g.o.p. convention in philadelphia when thomas e. dewey accepts the nomination for president from his party. >> there's been honest contention, spirited disagreement, and i believe, considerable arguments. but don't let anybody be misled by that. you have given here, in this hall, a moving and dramatic hope of how americans, who honestly differ, close ranks and move forward for the nation's wellbeing, shoulder to shoulder. [applause] let me assure you that,

beginning next january 20, there will be team work in the government of the united states of america. when these rights are secure in this world of ours, the permanent ideals of the republican party shall have been realized. [applause] the ideals of the american people are the ideals of the republican party. we have, tonight, and in these days which preceded us, in philadelphia, lighted a beacon in this cradle of our own independence as a great america. we've lighted a beacon to give eternal hope that men may live in liberty with human dignity

and before god and, loving him, erect and free. [applause] >> thomas e. dewey, our contender this evening, accepting the g.o.p. nomination at the convention in philadelphia in 1948. we are coming to you live this evening from the roosevelt hotel, where thomas e. dewey, in 1948, was here with his family, with his closest aides to watch and listen for the election results to come in. joining us now is thomas e. dewey jr. sir, bring us back to the 1948 convention. were you there? >> no. >> you weren't there. >> no. >> what were your father -- what do you think it meant to him to win that nomination both in 1944 and 1948? >> you know, i'm not going to be

able to answer that because we didn't talk about who wanted what and who was going to do what. we were teenagers and we were in school and my parents, neither of them, was particularly forthcoming about, i really want that, or no, we won't do that. it's just, you went forward and did what you were supposed to do or what you thought you were supposed to do. >> and what were you supposed to do in 1948 during the campaign? what was your role? >> student at albany academy. >> did you participate at all? were you part of commercial ads or were you out on the campaign trail with your family posing for pictures? >> no, no and no. >> and why not? was the dynamic there? >> we were in school. that was our job. his job was government and politics and we were, you know,

the kids. what did you talk about around the dinner table, though? i mean -- >> not much memory there. i think maybe more of what we're doing. we didn't really talk about what was going on in the campaign and that kind of thing. >> it wasn't a household suffused with politics. >> no, it was not. >> even after he lost in 1948 and 1944, years later, did he ever talk to you about politics? what do you remember him saying? >> he was not very reflective about that. >> he wasn't? >> no. >> what about your mother? what do you remember her telling you about politics? >> no memory of that. >> do you have memories of the campaign in 1948? >> not really, no. >> no. >> were you here on election night? >> yes, yes. >> what's your memory of that?

>> watching returns, being sent to bed, and the next morning, i forget, it was relatively early in the morning, i do remember dad coming into the bedroom where john and i were, in his bathrobe and said, well, we lost. and that was that. >> didn't talk about it after that? >> no. >> just said, "we lost." >> right. >> do you think it was something he carried with him? i mean, as a ball and chain, the rest of his life? or did he, in fact -- i mean, there are people who move on and that's that. but -- >> well, ball and chain, no. i don't think he ever thought very much like the biography you're currently writing. he never thought, oh, well, that was something i could have done differently. maybe he did, but we didn't hear

that. he went on to do his job, which was being governor in new york, until -- and fully hoping to retire in 1950, which he, then, his sense of duty, when the koreans went to war, his sense of duty impelled him to, you know, take four more years out of what would have been a very good legal practice, and run for another term, to make sure that he could hold his republican coalition of mostly governors, many in the northeast, together to get a non-taft candidate in 1952, which he thought was necessary to get the presidency. >> it's consistent with what you say, that i think might surprise people, is that your dad, in his early days, certainly never thought of himself as embarking upon a political career. that is to say, someone seeking

office as a way of making a living. when he first came to new york, it was at columbia law school, and a friend asked, what do you want to do in life? and he said he wanted to lead a great law firm and he wanted to make a hell of a lot of money. and he did it, but there was this 20-year detour along the way called politics. >> 24 years. >> what kind of man was your father? >> in what respect? >> i mean, you know, what was his style like? how would you describe him? >> how might he surprise people? the images have come down, the man on the wedding cake and the stereotypes that have been produced by and large because of what happened in 1948. if he were to walk in that door, what would it be like to be around thomas e. dewey? >> well, you know, it's a type

that i think i'm not sure we see anymore. he came from a small town in michigan. his father had died, as you know, very early in life, and he had a very strong mother, and he emerged from michigan with what used to be called the proudest of ethic -- protestant ethic, and those ideals, and they never changed. >> he was a workaholic? >> he was that. he was that. i mean, he loved his golf game and he loved his farm, but he was taken on to do four or five different jobs and each one he did well enough so that the next one came along. >> one thing, i guarantee you people don't know, in 1937, after his success with the

gangbusting, breaking up the rackets in new york, getting luciano, for example, john foster dulles tried to hire him at sullivan and cromwell for $150,000 a year. >> 100 is the number i remember. >> ok. in any even, a lot of money. >> yes. >> and he was drafted, literally, drafted to run for district attorney for new york county for the grand sum of $20,000 a year. >> right. >> we're going to get to the rise of your father and how he came to national prominence, but, richard, given what thomas e. dewey jr. has said about his father, take that and describe for us his campaign style. >> it differed, frankly. it's interesting. for someone who has sort of been often caricatured, he's actually a much more dynamic campaigner. when he ran for district attorney, for example, in new

york county, new york county was one county and there were people all over the burroughs of new york city that day who wanted to vote for thomas dewey. thomas dewey wasn't on their ballot. he had electrified this city with his exploits taking on the rackets. and because new york, even more then than now, was the heart of american communications. you had the loose press. you had, obviously, the radio networks. i mean, to become a phenomenon in new york meant potentially a national phenomenon. tom dewey was the inspiration, i don't know if you ever saw the movies, but hollywood was cranking out a movie a week at one point in the late 1930's, inspired by his exploits. in 1939, 37 years old, the district attorney of new york

county, is leading franklin roosevelt in the gallup poll by 16 points in a mythical matchup. it's hard to imagine. it went beyond hero worship, but it's hard to imagine -- i can't think of anyone since. i mean, lindbergh, in his own way, in his own sphere, you know, at one point had that kind of universal appeal. but your dad is still, i think, i unique figure. some people compare rudy giuliani as a prosecutor to your dad. >> rudy does. >> i was going to ask you. what do you make of that comparison? >> let's leave it at that he does. >> ok. >> no, there was an ascetic there and the good baritone voice and of course the courtroom theatrics, which was

perhaps -- certainly was a revulsion against the excesses of the 1920's, which were still very much in memory at that point. >> sure. >> and against the continuing mob scene headquartered, in many respects, in new york. >> and the alliance between the mob and the political machine. that's what, i think, people often miss. there was a relationship of mutual dependence that maybe grew out of prohibition. jimmy walker, you know, had not been out of city hall all that long. as a boy, in michigan, your dad had it drummond in his head by his father that tamine hall represents all that is evil and who could have predicted at that point, you know -- there's one other aspect, one quick thing about your dad which was clearly

a limitation in an era of popular campaigning. what your godfather, arguably his best friend, elliott bell, an economics writer for the "new york times," would have been secretary of the treasury in a dewey administration, when he left the administration to make some money, governor dewey's counsel came to him, looked at the letters drawn up to mark the -- and he said, you know, these are all wrong. they're too formal, there's no intimacy here, there's no warmth here, and your dad said something to him i think is so revealing, he said, i'm not going to display my emotions in public. >> ok, i was not privy to that. but that surprises me not at all. >> there's a kind of integrity to that but it's also a political limitation. >> we need to --

>> yes. >> we need to go ahead to election night, 1948, because we want to talk about his national prominence coming up here. so what happens? what are the results? >> well, the results, truman is re-elected by about two million votes. he has a rather healthy -- i think it's 303 to 189 in the electoral college. if you look at the electoral map in 1948, it would be of very little resemblance to today's. dewey swept the east. he did very well in the industrial midwest. he lost the farm belt and he always said, when people asked him to explain 1948, he said, you can analyze the results resm here to kingdom come, the farm vote changed in the last 10 days. >> how did wallace and thurmond do? >> they brought up the rear. thurmond did carry several

southern states, 39 electoral votes. wallace came in fourth and did not carry any states. >> what about the coverage of that night? the media's covering it? how long does it go? >> it's really the first election where television is a factor at all. it's a fairly minor factor but the nbc studios had cooked up this huge model of the white house and they had, they had aly enough, parade of donkeys all ready to go through and around the white house as soon as the formalities were observed and your dad was proclaimed the winner. no one had thought to weigh in a supply of democratic donkeys. they had republican elephants, rather. that, in a nutshell, is what the media expected that night. >> richard norton smith and tom dewey jr. are our guests tonight. as we take your calls live from

roosevelt hotel in new york city. our next discussion here is about his rise to power, his national prominence. and part of that is his role as a prosecutor. here's a little bit from his 1937 bid to become district attorney in new york. >> you've been given a most difficult task, but an opportunity to be of great help to the people of this city. what can we do for you? >> i need a small squad of detectives who will go to work on this job as they never have before, who will know that the mayor and the commissioner are behind them personally all the time. >> is everything set? >> he's got a full list. every gangster in the mob is launched this minute. >> any sign of a leak? >> they don't suspect a thing. >> it's 10:00 tonight, pick up the 15 ring leaders first. here are the sealed orders for

the men. >> with crack new york detectives, dewey's roundups were skillfully directed. mob after mob were taken by surprise. simultaneously all over the city, the underworld wases rounded up. >> we have made a real start on cleaning the gangsters out of new york. for 20 years, the underworld has preyed on our people and robbed them and then frightened them into silence. but now, the day of fear of the gangster is coming to an end. >> richard norton smith, how does he become a prosecutor? >> well, as tom said, went to university of michigan, law school, came to new york originally thinking -- he loved music, a life-long love. i think he was surrounded by music growing up in michigan. and actually, that's where he met mrs. dewey, as well. she had a love of music.

but eventually he settled on the law and wound up working as assistant u.s. attorney. a man named george medali who was his mentor trained him above all in thoroughness. the dewey hallmark was we talk about him as a work aalcoholic. in one of the early cases, i mean, he had his men go over 100 -- they traced 100,000 telephone calls and 200 bank slips in order to get a boot lerg name waxy portman proprietor of the eureka company in many ways symbolic of this alliance between corrupt -- well, prohibition-defying elements and the government, local government. >> so i want to get to a phone call here. but i want to go through some

names. dutch schultz. >> well, dutch schultz -- you had portman at the bottom. schultz took away gordon's empire which was largely based on alcohol. but not only alcohol. there was something called policy, the numbers game. and it was gambling for the masses. and again, this helps explains dewey's appeal across the demographic range because millions up in harlem in particular -- millions of poor people were being taken advantage of in this game. the money was falling to the under world. doug schultz was making $20,000 a day. >> lucky luciano. >> he was the significant step above. doug schultz decided that he would assassinate tom's dad

when he got too great and actually the underworld decided that was a step too far and before dutch could carry out his plan, mr. luciano took care of dutch. >> the impact of this to your family, were there threats to your family? >> well, sure. >> what was it like? did you know about it? >> no. i'm three years older than john. what's happening here in 1936, 1937, i'm 4 or maybe 5. and they -- being the peep that they were they would not share that with us. >> would phthalater tell you about that time? >> no. well, there was illusion to it. but one found out for one self-. >> what did you find out about that, tommy.

what were they doing or others doing to try to protect your dad and your family? >> well, he had 24/7 protection and the card, a detective and a driver. i think it was later, the only incident that we did find out about was the missed opportunity to kill him. he had -- he went across the street 96th street where we live to have breakfast every morning and doug schultz had arranged to have the boys there on a morning. and it would have been curtains, except that day he got up early and went to the office so they missed it. and shortly there after, the boys took care of doug schultz. >> do you think you weren't aware of it because your dad didn't let him bother him? just kept to his routine? was that his personality? >> yes.

>> he just went forward? >> right. >> it is said -- it's maybe an exaggeration. i remember doing research for the book that your dad had developed a habit at that point in his life quite understandably that he maintained in his life. when he was in a restaurant, he would sit with his back to the wall. >> always. always. >> you remember that? >> yes. yes. i don't go back to, you know -- >> sure. >> to the 30's. but every time we went somewhere, you know, and later years, it was always back to the wall. >> let's get to a phone call. august has been waiting for us patiently. august, go ahead. >> oh, gosh. it's an amazing story because in 1948 my family moveed up to duchess county in new york. during that time i was going to school. after school, i used to work with governor dewey on his farm

on reservoir road and it was amazing because his farm was probably one of the first farms that came up with automatic milking machines. mrs. dewey had a beautiful garden that she maintained for many years. i remember he had his own personal guard house in front of his mansion. and in 19 -- i think it was 64, 65, their barn burned down. they had a terrific fire, unbelievable. and i worked for little thomas ed mur row on all those farms up there in new york. it was amazing. those farms were so large and so big, they had to raise crops of corn and we bailed hay and it was amazing. it's amazing that i was listening to this program and couldn't believe it, that i'm sitting here, i'm 68 years old and i worked on his farm

bailing hay and farming. >> thanks, august. let's talk about the farm. your father ran in 1930 for governor. he loses and then buys the farm, the caller was talking about. he made a name for himself at this point. decides to run for governor. why, richard norton? >> i could always expect attribute that to his youth. he had come from a farming environment. in fact, during world war i he was too young to enlist an he worked on a farm in the owasso area. my sense is and you thought much better that he was very happy being a dairy farmer. it was a side of him that probably would surprise the public. i'm not sure that your mother was wild about it. i'm not sure you were wild about living there. >> what was it like? >> well, we were given a choice

and i guess to some extent she wasn't either. i remember he was very pleased as the caller had said very pleased to have the early stage milking machines because i remember the period before that, i mean, we -- in the very beginning when we first, i think, we rented in 1937 and then bought in 1938. i mean, people would be horrified today. we were drinking unpast rised milk because that's one did on a farm. and then of course, when he became governor, that guard house was insisted on by the state police down there by the entrance. but, you have -- you have a very good memory of all that, except i would not put ed mur row and ed thomas in the same category as farmers. they were people who had some land but they were basically broadcasters and they were there for-weeks. >> the caller refer to a man

shed -- >> that had a mortgage on it for a very long time. >> which one? >> the house at dapplebeer. >> it wasn't a very big one but it did get paid off. >> why was it so important to your father? >> i have no idea. he just loved farming. this was his number one farming. >> what was the significant of this area where he buys the farm? >> duchess farm is just gorgeous. a little bit of historical footnote. 1934 is the only election where both candidates come from the same county. >> john, you are on the air. john in eugene -- >> hello? >> we're listening, john, go ahead. >> hello. thanks. this is a great series, c-span. i've really ben enjoying it. quick comment and then

question. professor smith, i always enjoy hearing you. i learn a lot. i must correct you on one thing. over here we pronounce it oregon not ore-gone. second question. could you comment on the republican race for in 1944. was there a race in the campaign itself particularly from the republican side? thank you. >> well, there was a race in 1944 which is interesting because frankly, i don't think -- i'm not sure governor dewey thought the nomination was necessarily worth all that much. certainly he wanted a second shot at the presidency. general macarthur's admirers an we have reason to believe that he would like to have been

nominated. flirted with it for a while. but he went john bricker who we already mentioned to sort of run. it was in some ways a half hearted contest. governor dewey did not announce his candidacy, i think until the last minute. it was a quiesy draft. -- quasy draft and it's an unusual year because it's wartime. and the great issue -- anyone who won the republican nomination would have a challenge. it's not just because you're running toward this formidable wartime commander in the middle of the war but you don't know when the war was going to end. and the dewey appeal was that if america was at piece in 1945, it was believed that he would have a much stronger electoral taste than if the country would be at war.

>> good evening. thank you very having me. i want to commendry char norton smith for preserving the history tchs so important to america. they both do a great job. and in regards to mr. dewey, his passion with music from michigan, richard dreyfuss says in mr. holland's o pus. music is not about notes on a page, it's about having fun and passion. that's what dewey had a lot of passion which is missing today. today it's texting. nobody communicates and i think we're losing. we're losing that. and what mr. norton's doing god bless him. you know, i work with governor rockefeller and i met him being in politics and part of that and also the history of the roosevelt hotel is important. i was fortunate enough to work with phil and tony who did the bully french connection and we

shot a scene from the 7-ups in that hotel. and i was in that hotel, you felt a part of history. and the war dorff his tor yeah had a train that teddy roosevelt would have come in because he was in a wheelchair, they didn't want to photograph him. so you're all doing a great job. and god bless dewey for what he did because those are the times when people were close. it was an intimate looking situation. today people are dweeting and it's -- tweeting and it's very distant. and we in the baby boomer generation, we have a sense of stories, great stories. the next generation, they don't even know -- they can't even converse with you sometimes. so again -- >> all right. we're going to leave it there. we're going off on another area. >> how important was music in your parents household?

>> well, dad came to new york to go to law school. my mother came to new york to study singing having won a contest in oklahoma where she came from. they met at the studio where they both studied. dad also supplemented whatever -- he didn't have any income, i guess. we supplemented by singing in synagogues and churches, etc. of course, my mother went on stage singing. i would say it was very important then and it diminished for both of them. >> really? >> well, they -- they were great opera fans and they had the box at the metropolitan

opera which i still have. and they enjoyed the opera very much. i don't think they went to the symphony very much in their later years. while it was extremely important of getting them together, i think it wasn't all consuming later on. >> were there big theater goers? >> fair. not terribly. >> thomas e. dewey is our contender. he ran in 1944 and 1948. he also ran in 1940. we want to show you the campaign announcement in 1939. >> i think i'm confident and that of my associates in the republican party in the state of new york. i appreciate your support. i shall be glad to lead the fight. >> that was tommy dewey and his

campaign announcement in 1939, goes on to run for governor again in 1942 and wins. why did he decide to run? >> one thing that should be mentioned about 1940, he made history in 1940. he had the first female campaign manager that year, a woman named ruth anna mccormick simms. her father was mark hannah, no mean political operative himself, but it was -- it's revealing -- you mentioned him singing in synagogues. one of the things that he did when he was -- in his legal career particularly the racket days when he put out sort of a -- tough inside. 20% of the lawyers were applied at a time when the old law firms didn't necessarily hire

jews. i mean, that's one revealing aspect. >> and let's take a little bit more about his record. he runs more governor in 1942. what does he do if that position? >> oh, gosh. i would call governor dewey a liberal. he used to say that before there was government, there was mayhem. and government rose to meet man's needs. and in the modern industrial society that we live in, that means as much economic security as is consistent with individual freedom. so it was that constant balance. in terms of the operation, he cleaned up the cobwebs in albany. albany had been run by one party for 20 years. there was waste and fraud and abuse. but in a more creative way, he cut taxes every year he was governor. >> an his record on civil

rights? >> he was out in front. new york stated that because of governor dewey passed the first anti-discrimination legislation at the state level in america, it was to be in discrimination or for racial reasons in employment. >> los angeles is next. joe? >> i want to say that i really enjoy his books and how he speaks on tv. my question is about polling. i had heard during the 1948 election and i don't know if dewey was the first one to actually hire pollsters. but one of the reasons that the polls were wrong is that sample with people on cars, that people had drivers licenses and that led to a wrong result about what the election was going to be. i just want to get more information about that. >> that's a fascinating question. one of tom dewey's best friends was george gallow. it was a personal friendship.

but there's no doubt. dewey was fascinated by the science of polling and that's how he regarded it. the big problem in 1948, i think is that they stopped polling. they stopped, even the late polls which by the way, show. i mean if you look at the race they're anywhere from a 5.3 to in one case a 9.3. it's not the kind of overwhelming cut-dry that one would believe. but the demographic issue is legitimate. in 1936 the reason that the famous literary digest went out of business is it predicted landon would beat franklin roos velt. in america in 1936, the people who did not have telephones were likely to vote for f.d.r.

>> david in sioux city, iwoa. >> first time caller for me. so i'm a little bit nervous here. he knew everything about law. whone the radical president -- you have all these other issues like helping the poor, that kind of thing. what were his strengths and what is his worry? what was he lacking and needed a little bit of help? thank you. >> what were his vulnerabilities? >> oh, i think curiously the flip side of his traits there were a lot of republicans. there were a lot of conservative republicans who never forgave him for being a new yorker. i mean, new yorker's has been the city that people love to hate or at the very least like to misrepresent. >> hold on. would you father consider himself a new yorker? >> oh, he did, absolutely.

>> he did? >> yeah. that was back in the days and i did get this from my parents. that so many of the people at the time in commerce and in other areas in new york were transplants from somewhere else as they both were. and they thought that that did not bar them from being real new yorkers. i i think there was a cultural divide in some ways which is still with us in some senses. at 44, he had a difficult different situation. the 8000-pound gorilla was to ensure of his health. we now know that f.d.r. was dieing in the fall of 1944. but it was not something that you could possibly touch. and the other was the award

with pearl harbor and there's speculation as to what if anything the president might have known? and i i think your dad would have some fairly good views on the subject. >> that's correct. well, there was -- not ironclad but presumptive proof that we have broken the japanese code before pearl harbor and did nothing about it. and that was once spread at the time and in fact, i think in the book roosevelt set the colonel up from washington to see him during the company. he said i just you're not going to mention this because there are police who use the same code which is and cost lives. he sucked it up and never did mention. >> but, it is a logical

assumption that general marshall would not have acted on his own. >> that's my assumption. >> james, in los angeles? >> yeah, i'm a -- i was 20 in 1947 and a top secret technician in cars we. -- cars well-. what i'm commenting on is dewey was way ahead in the polls and he ran the dumbest campaign i've ever seen. he was -- he didn't attack truman and if he ran as if he was already president. he started a blockade. pear harbor is being celt up by roosevelt. then he just acted like he was going to win. he didn't attack.

truman was broke. and he recognized israel and they gave him $100,000 for his company. dewey should have been a shoe in but he had the worse company in the history of american presidents that he probably did good in new york. >> richard norton, thank you. >> i've thought that he was a better governor than a president. >> why? >> it is universally recognized today with al smith. >> recognized as what? >> as one of the absolutely finest governors in a state who has had a histfully gubernatorial leadership. one of the first people who invited up to albany was, a l

smith who had a fallen out between f.d.r. and the two couldn't be more different and yet they just absolutely clicked. yet, the reporter said to al smith. he said there's only one thing wrong with that guy, he's a republican. they were great administrators who were what i call practical liberals operating within a balanced budget with dorn the taxpayer and a productive pie vat company. and what does that do for the republican at the time? >> well, it made new york one of the most watched in the country. they gave us al smith. they gave us the new deal. duew -- the man who had

appointed him the gang buster somewhat relatively earlier. herbert lehman was very disturbed and popular governor who because huge favorite to win another term. it's a tribute to the campaign, the excitement that dewey created that he won by 1%. four years later, there was no doubt that you know due bi-would win. he's the first republican in 20 years. and he went on to build an organization some might call a machine. but it was an odd organization. it was a good government. if you can imagine such a thing. >> john in -- >> go ahead. >> i'm not sure that i would -- organization, yes. na machine, no because it didn't outlive him.

-- machine, no because it didn't outlive him. >> you're right, machine didn't outlive him but machines can be personal rather than ideological or enduring for that matter. >> like the subject of your next book. [laughter] >> yes. he appreciates that plug. >> let's hear from john from crown point, indiana. >> yes, during the 1944 campaign, tom dewey delivered, i think one of his best speeches of his career in oklahoma city. he really took off the gloves and hit roosevelt. now prior to that he delivered what i call 1948 type of speeches where he talked about home, mother and god and the american flag. but after that oklahoma city speech, i think that convinced most republicans they had a chance to beat him.

i wonder if he had the effect it had on the republican party in 1944? >> thank you. >> that speech reverberated in ways that no one could imagine at the time. there had been remember the famous speech in d.c. someone said there was appear contest between their dog and coat. he was running under this campaign. he was we go getted into this. he brought everything together. all of the allegations of new deal, incompetence, new deal. economic failure. on and on and on. >> this is in late september, about a month before the election 1944. i think a lot of republicans at that point were close to dispare.

they -- he gave the speech. the campaign was broke. dewey and his friends raised $27,000 in order to put together a national radio network. he delivered the speech. it was gallon fa nicing. a pole of 40 newspaper correspondents, 23 of them had come out of roos vet. he had the league change. but the irony is, he later decided and he said, the most important thing of this peach. if you want one reason why, he ran in 1948. he told a friend that was the worst speech i ever did. >> he didn't want to be the prosecutor. i mean, i think there was some element that he didn't want to be elected as, you know, as the honest cop. i mean, he wanted to be more

than that. and it was something about that speech. and i it's hard to believe that your mother also thought that it was some how a departure in terms of dignity and the respect that you show the office, erts, effort, erts. did you sense that tension a all? >> first of all, i was not 12 yet. so i've heard no personal knowledge. but that would have been her view. >> where did he come from? where did that view come from? i think she and dad's mother disagreed on practically everything. but they both have the sthrong sense of what you havedon't to y

attacking the other guy. not necessarily smart and politics, but they were who they were. >> let's show a moment from tom dewey criticizing the new deal. >> the record of this administration as one -- chapter of that failure. but still, we agree that the new deal is a failure at home, but its foreign policies are very good. let me ask you, can an administration which is so dis united and unsuccessful at home be any better abroad? can an administration which is filled with fighting and that fighting were we can see it be any better abroad where we cannot see it? these things we pledged to you.

an administration and which you will not have to support the three men to do one man's job. [applause] an administration which will root out waste can bring order out of present chaos. an administration which will give the people of this country receipts to the taxes they all paid. an administration free from the influence of communists and corrupt big city machines. an administration that will devote itself to the single- minded purpose of jobs and opportunity for all. [applause] >> richard norton smith, we are

in the 1944 campaign, how does he positioned himself to take on fdr and truman? >> is really a question that he cannot answer as to what the status of the war will be. there is no doubt that he ran against fdr and what he called the tired old man. i think it was as close as you can get to raising a health issue. there was a sense of intellectual exhaustion after 12 years. what dewey represented was used and the vigor and energy. in a way that john kennedy symbolically represented more than a turning of the page from the old as president to the youngest president. he had the same quality in 1944. he could point to his record in the new york. he had not doubted the social

programs. -- he had not gutted the social programs that people had come to expect. he made them work better and cut taxes at the same time. >> who was his vice president pick? >> a fellow governor from ohio. he had bad luck with running mates. after 1948, he privately referred to him as that big dumb swede. you might know better than i. >> no. >> what are the results of the 1944 election? >> he came closer than anybody else. of the four people ran against franklin roosevelt, he came by a considerable at about closer.

he won 99 electoral votes. the shift of 300,000 votes in the right states would have actually given dewey a majority in the election -- electoral college. it was the closest race since 1916. >> high. i was wondering. you were talking about earl warren, i think i am right about this. he was the governor of california. if dewey had won california, which i think he may be had lost to truman by a few votes, would dewey had swung the election or would he have one? >> the answer is no. you are right, he came within 18,000 votes. it was close in california. california was much smaller in 1948 and it is today.

an alternate theory can be argued that the man who thought he was going to be governor awey's running mate, republican leader in the house from indiana who served in that role until 1964,charlie was a representative of the farm belt. it can be theorized that if there had been somebody on the ticket who was a sensitive as hallock was to the unhappiness of the farmers that perhaps some things might have been done differently. who knows? >> let's go back to the 1944 campaign. he loses. he mexican sense -- he makes a concession speech. >> it is clear that mr. roosevelt has been reelected for a fourth term. every good a american will

wholeheartedly accept the will of the people. i extend it to president roosevelt my hearty congratulations and my earnest hope that his next term will be speedy victory in the war, the establishment of lasting peace, and the restoration of tranquillity among our people. i am confident that all americans will join me in a devout hope that in the difficult years ahead, divine providence will guide and protect the president of the united states. >> when does he make this speech? >> he made it the day after. there was some grumbling up in hyde park that he had not gotten the concession on election night. he says to an aide, fdr had worked himself up into a lather

over your dad. i am sure everybody that was for president fred out their opponent has hidden defects. i think it was personal in this case. anyway, the last word on election night before fdr goes to bed was, i still think he is an old son of a bitch. did your dad talk about roosevelt a? >> no. >> ever? >> know. >> that is fascinating. >> just another example of turning a page. he is not tomorrow to talk concerned. >> it is not that it was a painful chapter that he did not want to revisit, it is just -- >> if there was pain, we did not see it. >> or talk about it? >> you cannot talk about it unless you saw it. you are back to his mother and his wife. >> can i ask you one quick -- i

was told by somebody who was at the law firm. it's almost too cruel to be true. one year he went to the christmas party -- one year for some reason -- the band played a hail to the chief. the story is he turned it around and it did not go back to another firm christmas party. is that possible? >> it sounds out of character and a possible. >> what does it sound out of character? >> had the band -- remember this was his law firm. at the bandit done that, -- have the data done that, i think he would have gone on, he would not have walked out. you forgot earlier his major

walkout in the 1956 convention after dirksen had dismissed him. he was introduced to give a speech. he got up and walk all the way down the aisle and out of the auditorium. gone. take that. >> i think he had been waiting for years to take that walk. >> he did say that. >> it must have been very gratifying. >> he is referring to the law firm that his father was partner of after his political career was over. he was a partner in a law firm here in new york. what about the role in that? >> the lot was what he wanted to do -- the law was something he

wanted to do. politics was a detour. i think the idea of really creating or recreating a firm -- i guess he did not found it. he remade it. >> it was an old firm which he joined and became dewey- valentine. they had about 90 lawyers when he joined in 1955. he attracted many of the big companies in the united states, foreign governments. when he died prematurely in 1971, it had 300 lawyers. >> let's get to a phone call. >> mr. smith, talking to hank she lead to is the biographer, he has said that charlie was

under the belief in feet through support behind mr. dewey, he would be the running mate in 1948. when that did not happen, it may be the only regret he had politically was with dewey -- >> you are breaking up a little bit. i think we lost paul. the u.n. to take we've heard it? "i heard the same story. there is no doubt that he thought he was double cross. people hear what they want to hear. there is no doubt that hallock the lead going into that convention that he had an understanding with the dewey forces that he would be on the ticket. >> high. the disney character dewey was

named after thomas e. dewey. how did he feel about that? >> i did not hear that. i apologize i did not hear the question. let's move on to cheryl in bakersfield, california. >> i have been calling the series. the one thing that comes to my mind is, what was his relationship with the tammany hall people in the new york city during that time? my mother comes from brooklyn. my father was a californian. it is amazing they always split their votes in the 1950's and 1960's when i was growing up. my father change to republican when he ran in 1948. thank you. >> you might say tammany hall was the making of tom dewey in some way. he had it drummed into his head at tammany hall was the epitome

of political and civic evil. he would spend a significant part of his public career demonstrating the truth of that. >> hello. my name is adam and i am a college student. i actually read part of the book that mr. norton wrote about dewey. i was just wondering -- what did dewey think about his chances of going into the 1948 campaign about winning the race? i know that dewey was supposed to win that race. maybe mr. smith can talk about what were his prospects about winning the 1948 campaign against roosevelt. >> now the 1948 campaign against truman -- i think the 1944 campaign i am not sure he ever

really expected to win. i think he expected to win four years later. again, as we talked a little bit earlier, he was not a complacent figure sitting unquestionably on his lead that you might think from some of the textbook accounts. he was very confident of the fact that public opinion was a dynamic thing. he sensed a slippage in the last few days of the campaign. i think he felt he was almost trapped. he had a strategy that brought him this far. there was no reason to believe it would not carry him across the finish line first. >> american samoa thomas e. dooley, jr. told us tonight, his father turned the page and moved on. he goes on to still play a role in party politics. what is it?

what is the influence? >> imagine being an older statesmen and 1946. -- in 46. that is something. he remains governor of new york for another six years. he wanted to retire. he wanted to get on that business of creating a great law firm. but the great work came along and the party had no one else. he was nominated, he ran again. he was reelected. he was very glad to leave at four years later. in between you have an extraordinary show of political strength. i don't think anybody would have predicted where he and his organization -- his national organization at really puts dwight eisenhower over the top, write a platform to the liking of the moderates in the republican party. he brings richard nixon on to

the national scene at the age of 39. i would have thought your dad saw some of his younger self in young richard nixon. they had some temperamental similarities. >> they did. i think it is easy to say that geography had a lot to do with it just that it -- just as it did with earl warren in 1948. it is also important that you mollify the taft wing of the party. while they are not selecting somebody from the taft wing, nixon was seen as the closest possible die. i was there when my dad said, there is your vice-president to eisenhower. >> where were you? >> i was at the convention. i was opening doors and carrying the notes as a college sophomore should do.

i know that is what happened. i don't know if it was a temperamental likeness or if it was getting the taft wing on board. geographical balance was a big thing like -- it was a big thing back then. >> what your dad used to say, at the end of his life he said, everything came to rule for me. he always like to surround himself of people who he said careers were ahead of them. the fact that nixon was 39 years old was a way of not only mollifying the tact -- the taft wing of the party but projecting into the future. >> he is successful at keeping the taft wing at bay? >> yes.

senator taft unfortunately died at the very early part of the eisenhower administration. it was very touching to see him go to the hospital. he slips into visit taft. it must've been a sore real final meeting in the hospital. i would have loved to be a fly on the wall. >> the you know anything about that meeting? >> no. >> let's hear from bob next. >> good evening. what did governor dewey think of governor rockefeller as the inherit tour of the east republicanism? >> i will defer it to tom pugh was there. >> you go first. >> there is some debate on that in the book i am working on. i have not quite made up my mind. tom dewey was much more of a

fiscal conservative and nelson rockefeller was. there was a meeting to work the end of his life for they are at a party. dewey says, you know, i like you. i am not sure i can of 40. dewey's approach to government was much more fiscally orthodox. he hated that. -- he hated debt. nelson was less restrictive in that regard. >> that is a very nice way of saying that. as far as the nixon vs. rockefeller, that did not attended the convention because the rockefellers going way back had been a baby his largest campaign contributors, they worked hard for him. there were good friends.

my take from that was he thought the party should be nominating richard nixon in 1968. he was not going to get involved. >> it has also been suggested that, quite frankly, his law firm -- he had reasons not to alienate nelson rockefeller. >> i don't know if it had anything to do with the law firm. they were never in d. rockefeller's law firm. i don't think there were economic reasons. i think by that time, he felt uncomfortable with the amount of money that nelson rockefeller had been sent. >> let's hear from debbie. she had been waiting. >> i have a very interesting subject to talk about. sarah palin and a top pailin and i have been conversing on sessions on the internet

facebook. since the occupy wall street has started. >> debbie can you relate this to our topic tonight? what is our topic about tom dewey. >> my question is why haven't democrats put somebody else at office and sent barack obama back to africa where he belongs? >> how large. but go to pennsylvania. >> in 1944, i am a world war ii veteran. i still have a good brain. but i still remember things. i feel like 1944 it was

roosevelt's time. i think dewey was a very smart person. they just wanted to keep him an office because they were at a board. i think if they were not in war, dewey would have won hands down. >> that is exactly as i said earlier. that was the conundrum. you could not know. it is interesting that that comment all these years later reflects what dewey believed. the strategy was that in a peacetime environment, as grateful as people were to fdr, they would have been willing to turn a page and embark on a different kind of domestic policy. >> let's go to bill. >> could evening. i am resigning in virginia now. as a youngster about 13 or 14 years old, i grew up about 3 miles come governor dewey's

farm. i had an occasion on more than one time to caddy for the governor of quaker hill golf course. on one particular time, i remember after the afternoon was getting late and his golf partners lowell thomas, judge murphy from new york city, at where our roots, they wanted to continue playing at the park. they asked me to caddy. it was getting late in the day. i said that i am about 8 miles away. i need a ride when we are through. one gentleman spoke up and said, don't worry eyeball taking. when they finished, that man got in his car left and i was stranded there. gov. dewey saw to it that i had

a ride back to the village. i would never forget that. i was very grateful for him. >> that was bill and new york. mike, staten island, new york. >> had mr. dewey won the 1944 election, what would be his policy as far as ending the war? >> 1944 did he say? ok. >> i think it is a fair question. if you look at the calendar and you see where the armies were in january of 1945, i think at that point announcing defeat was only a question of time. how dewey might have conducted diplomacy differently if it had been him meeting churchill and

stalin -- >> what about the atomic bomb? do you thinkdewey would have doen that? >> it is hard for me to believe that any president after we had spent $2 billion to do this think -- knowing that if he did not use the bomb and if the war or prolonged, quite frankly it might be subject to impeachment. what was the point of -- i think in the retrospective argument over troop and whether it was moral to use the bomb, it is hard to believe any american president not taking advantage of the opportunity to end the war at the bomb represented. i cannot imagine tom dewey would have -- >> on your earlier comment. dad was bitterly critical for years after about giving away all of those people in eastern

european countries into the slavery of the soviet communism. he was consistent on that subject. >> i would love -- i would give anything to see your dad sitting across the table from joseph stalin. somebody who had prosecuted gangsters all of his life. >> let's try to get a couple more phone calls and hear as we wrap up tonight's "the contenders." >> thank you very much for this wonderful program, part of a wonderful series. historically toward the end we did get back to the question of foreign affairs. my question has to deal with toofessor smith's reference his role of an adviser in for policy at what the relation between the two was and what that had to do with dallas becoming the secretary of state in the cabinet. >> i think you are absolutely

right. they all fit together. the relationship was a uniquely close one. intellectually substantive. at one point, your dad appointed him to the united states senate seat which he was unable to hold onto in the election. there is no doubt that john foster dulles became dwight eisenhower's secretary of state as an of growth of the long record of association of creative foreign-policy position he had had with tom dewey. >> he was one -- may be the most senior of data's group of advisers that went to washington. he mentioned tom stephens, there were quite a number of them. >> one of governor dewey's great

innovations was the new york state freeway. it probably did more for your to economic development and everything cents. the man who built the freeway was burt ptolemy. he went on to build the interstate highway system under dwight eisenhower. >> i want to throw out a couple of names as we finish here. >> one of the many of surprising aspects of a surprising life. in 1964, dewey was at the white house. lbj wanted to get him to chair a national crime commission. in any event, he backed off of that. he pointed out to lbj, if you look at the schedule of your convention in atlantic city? he was meeting with marvin watson who was the president's

top aide. anyway, there was a day set aside as a tribute to kennedy. it was up front. dewey pointed out that if this happens,jackie will be there, teddy, and the entire family. there will be an emotional -- before you know it, bobby kennedy will be your running mate. the president on the phone and called watson and said it moved kennedy from day one today for. hubert humphrey became the running mates instead. he was in his death until the day he died. >> they were social friends. >> they were social friends. >> they spent parts of winter together. i even went to the races with them. >> we are all out of time and

gentlemen. i want to thank the both of you for being our guests and talking to our viewers. talking about thomas e. dewey. are contenders in our 14th week series. i want to thank all of you for calling in. a big thanks to everybody. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] [captioning performed by national captioning institute]

>> contenders come about the men who ran for the presidency and lost but changed political history. tuesday, the governor of illinois and later u.s. ambassador to the united nations, at least evenson. -- nations, stevenson. later on c-span. ♪ >> c-span's washington journal, every day, we are taking your calls on the air, on the news of the day, and we will discuss policy issues that impact you. coming up tuesday morning, the host of cnn's reliable sources discusses his new book. hoax. biographer and presidential historian craig talks about campaign 2020 in the history of postconvention presidential campaigns. watch washington journal at 7:00 eastern tuesday morning. be sure to join the discussion

with your phone calls, facebook comments, text messages, and tweets. on tuesday, treasury secretary steven mnuchin testifies before the house oversight and reform committee on the urgent need for additional coronavirus economic relief for children, workers, and family, and the implementation of key stimulus programs approved earlier this year. watch live coverage of the hearing, beginning at 1:00 p.m. eastern on c-span, on demand at c-span.org, or listen live wherever you are on the c-span radio app. pres. trump: bidens record is a of the mostl call catastrophic betrayals and blunders in our lifetime. he had spent his entire career on the wrong side of history. >> our current president has failed in his most basic duty to the nation. he has failed to protect us.

he has failed to protect america. and my fellow americans, that is unforgivable. >> the first presidential debate between donald trump and joe biden is tuesday, september 29, at nine :00 p.m. eastern. watch live coverage on c-span. watch livestreaming and on demand at c-span.org or listen on the free c-span radio app. monday afternoon, joe biden spoke about public safety and law enforcement during a campaign stop in pittsburgh. he condemned rioting and looting taking place around the country and blamed president for the increase in violence. this runs 25 minutes.