spending. current funding expires september 30. members also continue to wait for an agreement between president trump and democratic leaders on coronavirus economic relief. if an agreement is reached, congress could return sooner. follow the house live on monday, september 14. ♪ >> you are watching c-span, your unfiltered view of government, created by merrick's television companies -- cable television companies as a public service and brought to you today by your television provider. >> joining us is brian stelter, post of cnn's reliable sources book, hopes: the donald trump, fox news, and the dangerous distortion of truth. make you for joining us read how soon into donald trump's

presidency did you want to write about his connection to fox news? >> i was fascinated about this from the first week of his presidency, when he started tweeting the banners at the bottom of the screen on fox and friends and started chatting hostsosts and ways -- the in ways that were much more casual than other presidents. i didn't decide to write the book until the impact of fox foreign and fox influence became clear. last year in my research talking sources of fox and in the white house, it was clear to me that america is aion of bigger story than many realize. i tried to put it all in this. the word hopes is related to the tot -- word hoax is related the pandemic, president trump decrying democrats raising alarms about the virus. he used the word hoax, sean hannity used the word hoax,

suggesting this was an attempt to take down the president when at the time the virus was spreading across the country. terriblevery real, event, not a hoax. it tells the story of fox and trumpin a new way -- in a new way. >> you went into the meaning of the word hoax. until january 2017 the president-elect tromp started using the term fake news. i feel a tiny bit responsible, 2016, i wasctober on cnn talking about fake news. actual fake news, made up stories that were polluting peoples facebook and twitter feeds. i don't get credit or blame for it. it goes to other researchers and scholars who have been studying this phenomena. during theake news"

presidential transition to describe this plague of fake stories all over the internet and trump redefined it as news he doesn't like. that has now stuck. now he uses even more incendiary language. instead of news, he says the word hoax pretty much once a day on average. i think the take away for both trump supporters and detractors is the message that anything could be a huck's -- could be a hoax, nothing is real and you don't know what to believe and that has dangerous consequences for the democracy. host: you also write about the background of donald trump and fox news, didn't just start with a 2016 election. how early on the donald trump become connected and and involved partner operations? guest: i go back to 2011 because that's when the president started to call in every week to fox and friends which is their morning show. hisapprentice was raising

profile but fox and friends was critical because by calling in every week, you get to learn what the fox priorities were and you learn about the gop base priority. that gave man advantage in the 2016 campaign. host: part of your criticism of fox news read like this -- you say fox is an addictive substance for his biggest fans it's an identity, almost a way of life. hard-core viewers rarely change the channel or seek out a balanced media diet. they compare the network to a church, a senior center or city hall. they flock to it for reinforcement, for inspiration and for comfort food in the president obviously is very aware of that relationship between fox and its viewers, right? guest: he definitely is and in some ways he has become the fox news president. leadership athe the network. they want to put on a show for the president and his supporters. this is not automatically a bad thing. there was a long history in

america of partisan media. there are liberal newspaper editorial boards, conservative magazines. i think we benefit in america when we have diversity of opinion and different media outlets that are covering politics and society. the problem i identify with fox in the trump ages that so much of the information is missed information. so much of the storytelling is misleading to the public including to president trump. there are so money times when the president has received that information. even things like county people died in the helicopter when kobe bryant died. korea and like north foreign policy, their summary times the president is led astray and this is not coming from me. to me on people spoke condition of anonymity and some of them spoke on the record.

they're worried about how addicted the president is. guest: 1, 1 minute, it is sunny. , it is storming and hailing. it passes and the sun is shining again. i can be a way to think about the president's mood. he gives an to chris wallace. then he crashes chris wallace.

soon enough, you will be talking positively about chris wallace. the through line of his comments about fox is that he carries deeply about the programming. he is watching many hours of tv a day even though he says he does not watch much tv. he wants much less news and more propaganda. more trove -- more pro trump opinion. . he criticizes the news anchors and promotes laura ingraham. host: this is about the connection and -- text between the president and fox news. how much influence does fox news have in shaping policy? guest: it is about policy and hiring and firing decisions. the revolving door is something that has existed in washington for decades. some reporters joined the obama administration and some the bush administration. this is a much more intense version. one of the president's most

trusted campaign aides who went to the fox corporation at his back in the white house. there are more and more intense examples of this in the trump years than in past presidencies. host: there have been several books written about fox. where do you define the difference in your of? what is the different angle you take? has changed a fox lot in the trump years. since roger ailes was forced out in 2016. he died in 2017. there has been a real leadership lack in the network. many employees told me it feels like there is not a clear leadership structure for the editorial, for the content of the network. there is for the business. it is an incredibly profitable business. when it comes to the content, the editorial there are concerns is inrnally about who charge and what is being broadcast.

there is the sense that white identity politics fuels the programming. there are concerns internally and that's why thought i had to write the book. it's become clear this year amid the pandemic that it has life or death consequences. it's true for other channels as well but it's especially true for fox because it is by far the most popular. host: let's go to calls. we go to benton, illinois. good morning. caller: hey, this guy is a joke. to begin with, they are not even talking about the middle east bills that trump has done. he is a joke. they don't cover anything good that trump does. this is ridiculous. having this man on to talk to anything because he is the reason -- him, cbs, nbc, fox news, all of them, our kids are getting ready to fight. from the minute he walked into the elevator, they started in on

trump supporters being racist. a. let me tell you, i am not a racist. that is all they pushed. the kkk came out last week and endorsed biden. a word on any channel about that. host: any word for our fox news viewer in illinois? guest: it's important that none of us paint with a broad brush. we paint with narrow brushes. i am careful never to say that all trump supporters are racist. how in the world could anybody make that claim? instead, we should look at the research, look at the studies that have shown a connection between racial resentment and support for trump. that does not mean all supporters are racist. it's far from that. i am grateful for the call and that's what i am excited to be on. one of the things missing in cable news and lacking a national news coverage is a connection to voters.

we need more stories about what voters are feeling and believing and fewer stories about talking heads, fewer segments with talking heads. i am grateful to hear the feedback. host: let's hear from iola, wisconsin. caller: good morning, c-span. fox is a fear promoting station. i'm here in wisconsin and i'm concerned about the president going to kenosha. let's look at the facts -- the police there, thousands of guns, the protesters there, some guns. right now, trump followers are heading there with their ar-15 's. firecracker, it could be a massacre. trump is that spark. he should not go. our governor and the mayor of kenosha have asked him not to come.

it's a danger if one firecracker goes off. think of what that would do. i would like your response, thank you. guest: i share your concern and i think many people do about what happens when there is an event in one city, in one community that becomes international news. in this case it's kenosha and it a cause for the international media and i feel for the residents of these communities whether it was charlottesville in 2017 or kenosha and portland now. what i wish for is a strong local news media so that people know -- have a better sense of what it's like on the ground. this is from portland. the president yesterday said the entire city of portland has been ablaze for years. everyone knows that's not true. everyone knows that the city of portland is prospering and thriving and there has been some problems downtown in a concentrated area.

but if you read local news covers, you get a different sense of what's going on in a community then you do from some politician or national sources. i think that's true for kenosha as well and i have relied on the local paper there for coverage of what's happening there. host: let me ask you about your background. you been a news junkie since you were a kid. with your news side early on, you were successful but did you imagine being part of a news organization? i launched my blog and 2004 and i was lucky enough to be on c-span when i was in college when i had more hair. i never imagine being on tv because of the lack of hair not only but having a full-time tv job.i thought i was on the outside looking in. what i love being about -- being on cnn is that i am on both sides of the fence. i'm on the outside covering how

the media works and doesn't work. there are many situations where the media fails americans, we are not focusing enough on the unemployment crisis, the jobs crisis in this country. there are other examples like that where the press needs to make sure we are listening to the public and not just to the politicians and covering the priorities of the public. i am grateful i have an ability to put spotlight on the news coverage of the country. host: let's hear from bob in mineral bluff, georgia. opinion, talky about power, media has the power and it started with cnn with the 24 hour news cycle. then you had social media. and that's like pandora's box. they have the power, the media has the power. i learned that probably about 10 years ago.

i heard a story about law enforcement. in law enforcement some cities is out of control and nobody wanted to hear about it. they pick and choose. because of the covid, it seems like every scab is being picked and we cannot get out of the new cycle. portland, i know people that live in oregon and i live in mineral brought off -- in mineral bluff which is not too far from atlanta and i wouldn't go to atlanta unless i have to get on the airplane. there are many people in rural areas that would not dare to go to those cities. the cities are not peaceful and calm and they haven't been for a long time. if president trump cannot choose his words, it doesn't mean these places are burning down. he just means there's up people

and things of that matter. we appreciate your call. guest: i respect what you are saying and i think what you are saying is of by many people who see these images on television and have the impression of cities that i don't think reflect reality. as someone who lives in midtown manhattan in new york city, on the worst night of the unrest in new york city, i was out driving and i saw what was happening and was live on cnn describing widespread looting. i came home to my building and one window was shattered. across the street, windows and graffiti's across buildings. it was upsetting to see on that evening. the next day, the glass was cleaned up, my daughter was back on the playground, my family was back outside going to the store. life returns to normal quickly in midtown manhattan. of course, we still have problems, the buildings are mostly empty because the offices

are closed because of covid. i wish you could come and see new york city and come to see atlanta where i have hundreds of friends and colleagues who love the city of atlanta. the picture of cities by trump and fox news is not reflective of reality. it doesn't mean i'm not concerned about the crime and violence happening. as a resident of new york, i am. city of 8 that a million people will have its share of troubles and incredible successes.i not living in new york or atlanta or portland know about the full picture and not just the narrow picture the sometimes is shown on fox. host: speaking of atlanta, that's where sean hannity rose to fame on radio there. you write extensively about sean hannity. saying that hannity and trump work hand in hand.

but -- the message was that fox was only the legitimate network while everyone else was fraudulent. how did this relationship between donald trump and sean hannity unfold? guest: i remember a meeting with sean hannity a while ago. trashed new york times and cnn and the cities out was are failing but they also want the attention of the new york times and cnn. hannity and i have known each other for 15 years. the trump alliance came about because both men care deeply about the gop and care deeply about power. they benefited from this relationship they have work trump calls mr. hannity behind the scenes. he gives hannity talking points. the problem is when hannity does him a disservice. some of the seeds of the ukraine scheme replanted on hannity's show.

as i write in the book, that's what led to the impeachment inquiry. there are sometimes when hannity tries to help president trump actually hurts him. that's the theme of my book. host: let's hear from donald in hickory, north carolina, good morning. make sure you mute your volume and go ahead with your question or comment. caller: got it. a couple of comments -- one about why people are watching things. on other day, they put [indiscernible] mostly peaceful protests. eah, that's a laugh humpty dumpty. reliable.u are not you are nothing but a stooge. host: we will let you go there. he called to a humpty dumpty. guest: that's funny. host: he also talked about the

chiron's on the air. hannity called me humpty dumpty years ago. he had a great fall so he's waiting for me to have a great fall or maybe it has to do with my egg shaped head. it's notable how the insults used on fox get used on my facebook and twitter feed. and it shows the power these stars have to shape public opinion. i appreciate the caller's point about the chiron's, these are the graphics in the bottom of the screen. different tv shows handle them differently. on my program, i view every banner before we go on the air. i edit them and make changes to them. i am 100% responsible. if you don't like the banner on my. different shows handle this differently. batter set fire but mostly peaceful protest but that was probably a mistake. probably a young producer wrote

it who was under deadline. that kind of things becomes easily criticized not the right banner to put on screen. what i would suggest to the caller is look at cnn for a day. don't view it for 10 seconds, don't pick on the worst mistake made during the day because i make mistakes as does everyone. try to look at it in totality and context. i try to do that for fox news as well. it's unfair to cherry pick the most foolish moment for the most outlandish moments on a television network instead, try to look at the totality. but know that when mistakes happen, there are consequences, there is accountability. i had a tough conversation with one of my bosses last week because i made a mistake in my nightly news letter and i am better off or having that conversation. i think what we need more of an journalism are those checks and balances those standards and practices so that when i slip up, someone notices and we talk about it i make sure it doesn't

happen again. host: peer's derek in lakeland, caller: good morning, c-span and good morning, america. i just want to say thank you, c-span for having the cnn anchor on. over the last 3.5 months, we have gotten to see the exposure of how the fourth estate has been completely burned down. brian, do you believe in polls? guest: i do believe in polls, yes. caller: very good, the last poll that i saw from a reliable source was that in 1970, let's talk about walter cronkite for a second -- the united states believed that the media was giving them real factual information. a new poll just came out that said it's completely the opposite. 80% believed in the media in 1970 and now 20% does. so 80% doesn't.

when i look at that, i look at this as unreliable sources. you guys always talk about how many times trump has lied. i have calculated that with your chiron's -- i don't know if there is any journalists left at cnn but i know that if i were to estimate, about 300 different distortions or misinformation that we get out of cnn and you have to watch them in the airport which is harsh. , but if you added that up to 46 months, it comes out to be 300,000 plus distortions of truth. my thing is, this is how low you will go is that you win out and -- he went out and you made lies and you defamed a child and then you had to settle out of court to pay this child for distorting information about this young individual.

if anything that is happening at cnn, anybody who buys your book, it's really just one of those things that is dividing our nation. i don't believe in dividing our nation. it hurts our great nation. cnn is really the enemy and that is my opinion. thank you. guest: i am grateful for the call. i know you are not the only person that feels this way. there has been a process of radicalization that has happened in this country with media bashing that is absolutely unprecedented. 30 years ago, conservatives talk about media bias and there were some really valid points to the critique. it is absolutely true that lots of journalists are based in new york and washington, based in big cities with liberal leanings. mainstream newsrooms are built to make sure that bias does not seep into the news coverage and yet, sometimes it does. i acknowledge that.

it is different to talk about things as if they are enemies. outlet is an enemy of america. here's my challenge to you. i say this with respect. everyone has my email address. go to cnn.com and look at this -- look at the transcripts for my show. go through and look at what the lies are and point out the specific lies and then we can have a conversation about, what is the claim of a lie? accountability is absolutely critical. to win back trust, we have to be acceptable and accountable. we have to be on programs like this, taking calls and hearing from the public. i think everyone trusts some form of media. but what's happened in the past two decades, is we don't trust one news source. what has exacerbated this is a daily dose of media bashing on fox where stars like hannity and

tucker carlsen and laura ingraham tell viewers not to trust anything but fox. fox is a 24 hour, seven day a week ad for fox. promotewe try to newspapers and diversity of media. they do not do that on fox. there has been a polarization on -- polarization of trust. it's happened on the right where there is incredible distrust of media. that's partly fanned by donald trump and his aides who rail against the media and call the press the enemy. i hope that this is a chapter in american history that is not the new norm. i hope folks will be able to see in the future that the press is imperfect but trying to report the truth about what is going on in the trump administration. when it comes to these polls, we need to use them as a challenge, it's a challenge every day to try to be better listeners and win trust back.

host: you write in the book about being a kid, being the -- of being in the studio audience of crossfire back in the day. can you trace the contention of cable news back to that show in particular or similar shows? is that mild in comparison? guest: that's an interesting point. there are fewer of those sorts of segments on cable news these days. you get a republican and you get a democrat and you let them fight. i don't see as much of that today as i did 10 years ago. that's in part because the times are so serious. the pandemic is so serious. these stories are so serious. what you are seeing more of is reporters and analysts trying to make sense of the news and trying to cut through the misinformation that exists. if we go back to the 1990's, the model pioneered by cnn and devolved or developed by roger ailes, to have these wrestling matches on tv, i sometimes defend them by saying they

reflect the mood of the country but i also think the country is , not as divided as it appears on television sometimes and sometimes these red, blue, left, right battles make it seem like we are more divided and more bitter than we actually are. i don't know about you but when i go to the grocery store or go to starbucks, we are not thinking in republican, democrat terms we are thinking as , shoppers. we are trying to keep the other safe. -- keep each other safe. i don't think the country is as polarized. it is polarized but i don't the we are as polarized as we appear on social media or network television. host: about 30 minutes left with ter.guest, brian stel (202) 748-8000 in eastern time zones.

, not on a8001 pacific. deborah, west chester, ohio. go ahead. caller: good morning. i'm a bit of a news junkie myself. i follow government and i went into the scientific field and i am retired and i have time to watch c-span, thank goodness for c-span. there is a couple of things i think that would give you insight as to how we came to where we are today. one is i remember, i'm 68 years old now, but i remember when i would watch abc, nbc, cnn etc. and i would watch an event and then i would hear the commentary. i would say that's not exactly what they said. i saw that bias evolve. what i considered to be bias. fox gave people who thought there was a different point of view to the event a different point of view. i think that is why people

initially went to fox. the other thing is because our newsmakers today, they are a profit center. a major profit center. the mantra is if it bleeds it leads. when the country is in chaos, the news media makes more money. when the politicians keep us divided, they can direct their -- direct our vote. thank goodness for c-span because we have the opportunity to listen to both sides in an unbiased way. it is not a profit. one thing you said i would like to correct. you said fox puts people in organizations outside of the news and they come back, etc. david axelrod, chuck todd, all went to the news media. it's just a point of view. it is we the people would like to have a source. are you going to ask joe biden

the question -- what will you do with missile defense in poland? he stopped in your -- you stopped in your administration with obama and that was critical. we are not talking about the most serious issues. we talk about personality and likability. host: you said you watch c-span and we are not a breaking news network and when it comes to those stories who do you turn , to? caller: i flip around all the stations. i start out looking -- cnn used to be one of my favorites when they first came on because it was hard news 24/7. , it i do is i watch at night watch fox between 6:00 and 6:30. between 6:30 and 7:00, i watch cbs. watch -- iday, i might watch fox in the morning, 6:00 in the morning or maybe i

will flip over to msnbc. they are somewhat interesting for 15 or 20 minutes. host: thank you for your input. guest: i think we need more people like you who are grazing, consuming lots of different channels and getting lots of different sources of news. media consumption is just like your diet, your food. we need to have a balanced, healthy diet with different sources and i think all of us as the voters of americans benefit from that. what has happened in television and i guess that's the point you were making about how cable news channels have changed, the internet has changed everything. your mobile phone has changed everything. now, the best way to read 100 different stories is on your phone and on the internet. television has adapted to that. you think about how fox and cnn are much more focused on political news than 20 years ago when there were shows about

medicine and health and the economy. now there is much more of a , political focus and that's partly in response to viewers preferences but it's partly because of the internet and how every headline you want is on the internet. i often say to journalism students we are in the best of times and worst of times. because we all as individuals have access to more news, more high-quality news, more primary sources than we ever have before. it's an incredible ability to access magazine articles, in-depth reports, documentaries from around the world but then there is also more garbage than there ever was. there is a lot more low-quality content and a lot more click bait hyper partisanship and lies. it's hard to sort it out on the internet. i think what we all need is a navigator through this new news world. miami, florida: on our fox news headlines.

-- miami, florida calling on our fox news line. caller: how are you? host: go ahead. caller: a few points the guy was , talking about americans are not against americans. what are these people that are in the fbi, are you calling them americans, the ones bringing this crap, the fake hoax. do a book on that. you are selling a book and that is all you are therefore. this is not news. if you want to sell your book, put some airtime up. pay for it. i don't need to look at that. this is not news to me. you are just selling your book. theseuntry -- why aren't people in jail, in prison? if we had done anything close -- if i could have done anything close to what they had done, i would have been in jail. host: we will let you go there.

he brings up the fbi russia investigation. write about that -- you write about that in your book. let fox in and kept the rest of the press out. hannity was not in the news business. he coordinated with virtually every powerbroker of the trump era. we talked about the ukraine part of that story. telus a bit more. guest: let me talk about the word hoax first. not to promote the book. to talk about the meeting of what the word hoax is. trump uses the word hoax a lot, especially in connection to the russia probe. hoax is a conversation enter. it is meant to shut down conversations. hoaxes are something that hurts -- that hurt you. they're designed to hurt your family. the president uses that word to

stop conversation about russia to stop conversation about his , unexplained ties to russia. there is a great new book out today by michael schmidt of the new york times with new reporting about the russia probe and some of it was never explored. i believe let to him -- i will leave that to him. what we saw with fox and hannity as you mentioned is that you see a coordinated effort to shift the conversation to move away , from the russia story. i will be the first to admit that cnn was covering it quite extensively. there was an unprecedented special counsel probe into this and we know that. to say it was a hoax is meant to say do not look over there. look over here. it is a way to shift intention in a way that is not journalistic it is political. host: you said you have known sean hannity for 15 years or so. do you interview him for this

book and how many people total did you interview for this book? i spoke to about 140 current fox staffers. about 180 people that used to work there or are connected to the fox world. that means they are talent agents and managers, makeup artists, a lot of people that have connections to fox and trump from all sorts of directions. one of the big takeaways is the extreme rhetoric on the air is not helping people. the extreme rhetoric in primetime is not helping people. there are many news anchors at fox that feel suffocated by the pro-trump opinion shows. one of my arguments in the book is we need more of the news and less of the opinion. we need more of the real reporting and less of the talking. that goes for other channels as well but i think it is especially true at fox because it is so popular and the president is so addicted to it. host: explain the difference between the fox news division and the prime time shows. they are run by different divisions?

guest: right, they are run by different executives. they have different purposes and different audiences as well. the newscast is much lower rated than tucker carlsen tonight. that is the 8:00 p.m. opinion program. then there are programs that are in between. they are called hybrids or borderline shows. fox has moved more toward the opinion side. that has caused a lot of journalists to leave fox. everyone from megyn kelly to shepard smith. a lot of viewers do not like these personalities. they think they are too liberal. what shepard smith was trying to do was fact-check not just trump but the rest of the fox schedule. he felt the truth was not getting on the air at fox and eventually, he was so frustrated he had to leave and he is now at cnbc and will start there in couple of weeks. through these changes and

departures, the channel becomes trumpier. the fox viewers want that. they want a channel that is as pro-trump as possible. it is a lucrative business. about 2 million -- about $2 billion in profits. that is an extraordinary sum of money for the murdochs and the shareholders. is there concern in the organization that fox seems more on the outs with the president in recent days? guest: there is always a little bit of frustration when he attacks news anchors at fox. that's something that can be uncomfortable and causes hate mail and death threats for those anchors. it is tough when you're a news anchor on fox trying to report the news and your viewers are lashing out against you. that has less to do with fox and more about what's happening in the country and how polarized and alienated some people feel. what we have to figure out is, how do we build bridges, how do we build connections between ourselves and each other, between television networks, between various views of what's going on? it did not used -- it s