basic duty to the nation. he has failed to protect us. my fellow americans, that is unforgivable. >> the first debate between president trump and former vice president joe biden is at 9:00. watch live streaming and on-demand on c-span.org or listen live on the free c-span radio app. >> our campaign 2020 coverage continues with candidates debating. c-span. your unfiltered view of politics. morning, duane bryant talks about his book on law enforcement, police accountability, and minority community relations.

later armstrong williams discusses his book what black and white america must do now, a prescription to move beyond race. you can join the conversation on facebook and twitter. washington journal is next. ♪ mr. biden: -- >> good morning. it is washington journal -- host: good morning. onis washington journal tuesday, september 8. armor vice president -- former vice president biden called un-american"mp " for his treatment of veterans. how would you rate the president's role of commander in chief? here is how you can reach out to

us this morning. if you are active or retired military, (202) 748-8000. , (202)support joe biden 748-8001. trump, upport president (202) 748-8002. president holding an event at the white house yesterday on labor day talking about a variety of issues, matters of the military coming up. again quote the president rips leaders butlitary insists soldiers love hit -- " the president rips into u.s. military leaders but insists soldiers love him."

[video clip] the militaryying is in love with me, i'm saying the soldiers love me. we are getting out of the endless wars. you know how we are doing. we defeated 100% of the isis caliphate. 100%. when i came in, it was a mess. they had it in a certain color, all isis. one year later, i said " where is it?" " all gone. gone." of you, sir, all host: that is president trump from yesterday. harrisburg, in pennsylvania, joe biden at a stop at the afl-cio participated in an online event with the leaders of that union.

if topic of the military came up. here is -- the topic of the military came out. here is joe biden from yesterday. [video clip] >> when it comes to veterans, he is downright un-american. i have never said that about a president ever, but calling those who have served losers and suckers -- these are heroes. -- my tell you something beau was not a loser or a sucker. he spent six months in cove to makingu.s. -- kosovo sure they had a criminal justice system. he was the only foreigner to have a 12 foot statue erected to him, a memorial for what he did in kosovo. -- he wasered attorney general and he had a

special mission to go with his unit to iraq for one solid year. the bronze star and other awards. he didn't serve with losers and suckers. he served with heroes. he served with american patriots . none of the veterans you know or losers or suckers. the president has ever talked about our servicemen and women and that way. sorry if i am cutting it close to losing my -- losing my temper, but if that is how you you about our veterans, have no business being the president of the usa. host: we are asking you about military issues overall, about who your choice would be and who is better on these issues. if you are retired military, (202) 748-8000. if you support joe biden, (202) 748-8001.

trump,support president (202) 748-8002. on vanden brooks has experts military policy -- depending on the election, there would be differences in policy. divergen would likely on issues like transgender troops or naming military bases after confederate generals. it would likely coalesce around the top challenge facing the united states, china. china is america's principal adversary. that is likely to carry over to the next administration matter who is in charge. more on those differences in the story we will highlight for you. starting off with who is better

on these issues. leesburg, virginia. here is tom. why do believe candidate biden is better? caller: i think he has lived it with his family and all the things he has had to deal with when he was vice president. i think trump has been in a bubble since his youth. he did not serve. he went to a military school. i think he has a disregard and a disrespect not only for people in the field, but the generals, just the way he dealt with some of the departures of these generals who are serving his administration was totally disrespectful. i had six uncles in world war ii -- six! who was inndfather world war i and got gassed in europe.

for him to call them losers -- i think he is a loser. i think he is a disgrace to this country. leesburg. is tom in we will go to orange, -- orange park, florida, a supporter of president trump. william, ahead. to 1969, i was in. biden is a loser. is ine says that biden the second stages of dementia. host: aside from that, to the topic of military issues, why do you think the president is better on this issue? caller: he has better generals around him. host: he has got people who know what they're doing. i have friends -- caller: he has got people who

know what they are doing around him. that thewhen he says military officials hid them, but soldiers like him, would you agree with that? caller: who said that? host: trump, yesterday. caller: even the soldiers like him. up.: ok, william, finish caller: i said that makes sense. generals in the field, not all -- don't be lying lying to people. houston, texas, supporter of joe biden. hello. caller: i am going to be voting for big joe biden. -- draftump is a tax

maleng -- i am a white college graduate. i had to register for the draft when i was in high school. my draft number -- my brother fought in vietnam. he was a generals aid. he was a captain in vietnam. he said it was a hellhole. it was a disaster. --ould not vote for a tax draft dodging tax cheat. that you probably heard joe biden himself received military deferments. [laughter] caller: i don't care what joe biden does. host: why does it matter for one candidate and not the other? caller: because donald trump is a draft dodging terrorist! i want him gone. george, active military

sorry i amge, pronouncing that wrong. caller: i was a green beret right after 9/11. i worked under george bush. therrently serve in virginia guard under president trump. i am an ardent supporter of the president trump. i think he has done more for rank and file soldiers then and andmmander ever could, '05 up. he has done great things with the military after almost, that was devastated after almost -- with the military that was devastated after almost 20 years of constant war. i think trump is a moral man and i will proudly owed for him again. -- proudlyu think

vote for him again. i do not think it is pervasive as it is being presented. i know there are many senior leaders who go to the senior leadership schools and they are certain party lines. so many leaders purged under the last administration. many stayed in who were just trying to get the next pay grade. now we are seeing a resurgence of true leadership. and up.u said '05 what does that mean? caller: lt. col. and up. they attend seminars that have to do little with combat leadership. host: jorge in williamsburg,

virginia. we have set a line aside for if you are active or retired and onld like to put in -- input president trump or a future biden administration, you can call that line, (202) 748-8000. a supporter of trump in washington dc, anita. let me make sure i push the right button. can you hear me? host: yes, go ahead. caller: i am so embarrassed by our president. i did not vote for him. it is an embarrassment to the world how we let -- this president has compromised our safety, our integrity. get hit bywed us to germ warfare. he has allowed us to get attacked. he needs to be removed.

all those who support him are not dealing with reality. host: when it comes to matters of the military, why joe biden yucca -- why joe biden? caller: he has experienced. he has worked with the government, he has worked with the military, they are familiar with him, we know we can trust him. we don't know who the hell donald trump is. grabow after " don't be a full, vote biden -- fool, vote biden." military to his own advantage. he has disparaged their service and called them losers and suckers."

. their records speak volumes while biden was vice president, he was a supporter of the war in iraq. wars,as not started any overthrown any leaders, destabilized any regions and has come up with agreements to help and decades long quagmires. trump is clearly the obvious choice." overseasvor reduced involvement with trump seeking a faster withdrawal than biden of troops from friendly countries like germany. the white house announced in july plans to remove 12,000 of the 47,000 u.s. troops in germany where they help deter russia. biden would likely reverse course and keep those troops in germany as a check against russian aggression in europe.

pulle military times, nearly half of troops surveyed said the u.s. military level in germany should stay the same -- .n the military times poll nearly half of troops surveyed said they u.s. military level in germany should stay the same." supporter of president trump from altoona. story: first of all, this has already been debunked. second of all, president trump before he was president let did soldiers go to his place at mar-a-lago. what has biden ever done? he brokered a peace deal between israel and the uae. for vets.t choice

that took 44 years to get done. host: actually the choice program started under president obama. trump extended it by executive order. caller: whatever. he extended it. it took 44 years to get done. the story has already been debunked. it is like people saying trump is a racist. at present on obama -- president obama and trump did not give funding to historically black universities and colleges. host: we will go to phoenix, arizona, a supporter of joe biden. and i: my name is elaine live in phoenix, arizona. my son was a veteran. he weighs in afghanistan from

2000 -- was in afghanistan from 2000 to 2008. am canadian born. i have always been a republican. i have lived here since 1969. i am a registered nurse. i saw many tragedies and my son over in afghanistan never talked about it but it was rough over there. for a president to ever say anything about our troops who go over to help support democracy or help democracy and people overseas is just deplorable that .e would even say such a thing suckers and losers? that is deplorable. ifore he said that, -- now, am a democrat for this election and i am for biden for sure. host: when it comes to matters

of the military, why joe biden biden? why joe empathetichink he is to soldiers and veterans. i think they need more guidance -- i think had ptsd they need more guidance. my son had ptsd when he came back. now he is in jail. a good part of it was due to being overseas. he is now getting better, but he came back and never got any help, so i think biden will be very supportive of the military and i think he will only do what has to really be done in the world. i don't think he will put us into another war. it would only happen if it really had to happen. host: cleveland, ohio, a supporter of president trump. we will hear from james, hi.

caller: i will reiterate what one of the other colors said -- ther callers o said. the winick story has been debunked. president trump, the v.a. accountability though, he got that going. you said obama did. to be so. -- maybe so. host: it was the veterans choice program i was referring to. caller: but president trump got it working. president trump rose pay for the troops. he is getting them home from these endless wars. he took out solemani and baghdadi. the proof is in the putting their. pudding there.

host: james reference to those who came out in light of the atlantic article. " lieutenant general keith kellogg, secretary pompeo, secretary of defense mark esper, secretary ofn, and the v.a. robert wilkie all announced their report and defended the president. he will always stand with our great military. " h.at is from alyssa fara next we have a supporter of joe biden. -- biden -- raymond, go ahead. you are on. caller: did you say biden had

deferred for asthma? understand what you're saying. can you further expand what you are saying? caller: i said did you say biden had inference for asthma? asthma?ments for host: i referenced that he had deferments for asthma and other issues. caller: let me say this -- my dad was on his way to europe and his captain saw him and told him "get this man off this boat." he had asthma. he died of it. biden had deferments. they do not want people with to further that disease. and --not compare asthma

i am sorry. i am so upset. raymond.got you, i misquoted that previous tweet i read from alyssa farah. she is white house chief of communications. senator tammy duckworth -- " when someone shows you who they are, believe them. the and time again, president has shown us who he is by disparaging those who wear the american flag on their -- who he is with his demeaning, disparaging comments about those who wear our nations uniform. " caller: i do not really believe

anything those people were singing. they are always anonymous -- were saying. they are always anonymous. from now on they have to prove he said it. the communist democrats, there were days no good. host: when you say president trump gets things done with respect to the military, what specific examples would you cite. caller: more money. youold the europeans, " will allow christians to be christians." women can say no to arab men and live and people just are better off with a commander-in-chief that knows what he is doing, that is willing to go to war if necessary and now we have a volunteer army.

i was a drafty -- there are now more people who are willing to be in the army, to go where they are needed and it is no longer a draftee army. that is it. california.n we will go to kissimmee, florida. a supporter of joe biden. i don't understand -- what did he do? the pandemic is crazy right now. nobody is saying anything about the pandemic. we are talking about the army. host: we're talking about the matters of military. obama. he was with he has got to be some good. i am testing the waters. i need this guy out and put the new guy in. i love joe biden. he does what he has got to do, he speaks out of his heart, and

you have to have compassion for people. host: what do you think he is going to do for matters of military -- on matters of military. caller: i need him to do better. host: such as what? sense. it doesn't make you say something and do go behind your own people and say something different. host: ok. that is david in kissimmee. the military times poll did a recent -- they surveyed active at cirque use university. they have seen a steady drop in of the opinion commander-in-chief since his election four years ago. 1018atest results based on active-duty troops surveyed in

late july and early august, nearly half of respondents had an unfavorable view of the president compared to 38% who support donald trump. it comes to military indiana,teve in milan, a supporter of president trump. hi. caller: i am for donald trump because i believe the rest of the world respects him over the former presidents. he will do what he has to do if he has to do it. that is why i am for trump. host: when you say the rest of the world respects him, how do you think he achieved that daca -- achieve that? caller: him personally. i don't think they respected

obama. they know not to challenge him and push him too far. respect trump. in cooper, texas, a supporter of joe biden. good morning. caller: good morning, washington journal and c-span. 31-year-oldow of a air force veteran. my husband passed away in 2012 due to a literary related injury and i would like to let people know out there my husband was not a loser and anyone who doesn't believe trump did not say that, look at how he treated n family. they lost their son in the war and he treated them just like -- like dirt. termld like to go over a that psychologists call gas

lighting. gas lighting is when someone convinces you that what you know to be true is not the truth and they weaponize you are of emotions against you. if people cannot see that this is what this president is doing, i feel sorry for this country. host: in light of your experience, what do you think it is about joe biden, what would he bring to a terry matters? -- two military matters. -- bring to military matters? .aller: he has empathy joe biden has gone through things. what has trump gone through? for me, that is good enough. i don't know anything bad about him, but i know many bad things about trump. people need to understand that people like me, we are hurting because our husbands are gone

and you have this clown running around calling people names who actually did serve in the military. host: that is margaret in yesterday, the president of time reacting to that atlantic story. you can see the whole thing on c-span, but here is the president. pres. trump: the story is a hoax, written by a guy who has ,ot a tremendously bad history the magazine itself, which i don't for you but i hear it is totally anti-trump, is a big obama person, a big clinton person. and he made up the story. it is a totally made up story. i was very happy to see zach we went this came out and said -- i think that is 15. these are people that were there. that is the 15th person, general kellogg, everyone there. what happened. i was happy to see zach came out and said it was not true.

it is a disgrace. who would say a thing like that? only an animal would say anything like that. there's no one that has more respect for not only our military but for people to give their lives in the military. and i think john kelly knows that. i think he would know that, he knows that from me. zach fluent us says work for john. i think they both know that but jack came out today or yesterday, last night, and said strongly that he didn't hear anything like that. even john bolton said that was untrue. host: we will go to trenton, in jersey, john, good morning. caller: yes, pedro, thank you for having me on c-span. and i vietnam veteran, respect the president and his family or anything he accomplished. as far as i'm concerned, he is nothing but a draft dodger. everyone in the country should

know what i draft dodger is. you had atnam war, draft. either you supported the draft or you draft dodged. and that was a crime back then. he evaded the draft because his father bought him out of the service. he had no guts. to me, he has no guts. thank you for having me on c-span. host: as far as joe biden, when you hear about his deferment, what is your reaction to that? caller: his deferments? thing likehonorable somebody has foot problems and don't go golfing all of the time , and has cancer or something like that and should be

deserving the drafted -- -- notngly drafted drafted, deferred. i support those people. supportthe strong must -- defend the week. i feel he was so weak as a person that he would not come out and say, "listen, my father bought me out of the service and i am coming clean." in fortt's go to gym lauderdale, florida in support of president trump. caller: hello. family that has a military tradition dating back to the first world war. i am a vietnam-era veteran, and these people that come on and try to add credibility to the smearing of this president, timmy, is very repugnant. just keep -- to me, is very repugnant. just keep your military career

as a pride to your family and do there, likeit out the other people that have a military career, there is something wrong with them. firsthand, i can tell you i invested in a company that developed experimental, cutting-edge weapons to defend the united states. entirempany, during the obama administration, could not get the funding they needed to develop these weapons. that,tell you, firsthand, as far as military equipment and equipment that saves military lives, the democrats, that is the first thing they cut. the smearing of the president is the worst thing -- people need theealize, just realize, hot button nature of all of these accusations that come out against the president.

they are not policy issues that get debated, they are hot button and controlling their brain. controlling your mind. host: james in washington state, an active military member, good morning. caller: first of all, i'm not active. thank youould like to for c-span and commend you for toding the callers and check actually explain what we mean and what we say. i think you for that. first, i would like to say i support joe biden to better serve and leave the military. joe biden has been vice president, .1. -- point one. to thes guidance president because he was in congress, so he understands how much we need and need to value

our allies. we have the bound to -- bounty putin has placed on our soldiers , and the president has not mentioned that at all. he needs to make a comment. we need to value our allies, keep nato, be the leader in the world. an honor your [inaudible] -- honor your generals. understand military strategy. under them, listen to them, give them counsel, don't beat them down. i think biden will do all of that, to counsel, listen to the intelligence, and make a decision based on the intelligence. do you have any questions for me? host: you have summed it up. that is james in washington state, retired active military. that is the line we have set up, (202) 748-8000 if you wish to be

your thoughts are there. bill in connecticut, texted us saying, objectively, this is the first time, and this is referencing the president's comments from yesterday, i heard the president take on the military-industrial complex. joe biden sentimental eyes as the military which is bogus and dangerous. texting you can do it at (202) 748-8003 if you wish to do that. maria in key west, florida, a supporter of joe biden. to our next. caller: good morning, -- you are next. caller: good morning, c-span. thank you for having me on. i believe trump, i will not call him donald or the president, because he is a very dangerous leader. he has done nothing for this country as far as i am concerned. he is taking this country down a very dark path. he has done nothing with the

pandemic. host: but in matters of military, why not president trump and why joe biden? caller: in matters of military? i think joe biden has such compassion, real compassion. this president can't even read off a teleprompter because he goes off script all of the time, and you know exactly what he's thinking because he shoots from the hip. i think pathology runs deep and he a very dangerous man. host: that's maria in key west, florida. we will hear from mandy in arnold, maryland. in support of president trump. caller: good morning. i did not vote for trump in the last election and i plan on voting for him this election. to your previous caller, she said he speaks from the hip and we always know what he is thinking. exactly right.

i don't want to have a president that reads from the teleprompter and we don't know what he is thinking. my husband, he is active duty, the issues affecting us now are being tasked in congress. when people vote for a president, they vote for who is working in congress behind him. the money and all of that comes from congress. troops were being decimated under obama, their protective gear and that overseas, so for me, i'm voting for trump. it's less about trump and less about biden, and who is in congress. people need to focus on that issue. host: that is mandy in arnold, maryland. this first hour, taking a look at matters of the military. this comes from statements on the issues made by both the president and joe biden yesterday. the president spoke at the white house on a variety of topics. you can see it on c-span.org.

on all thelow along vents on campaign 2020 on that as well. overall, not so much the military. new york times looks at this spending of the initial $1 million warchest, saying $350 million, almost half of the money spent went to fundraising operations and no expense was spared in finding new donors online. the campaign established a well-paid staff and health team .ad a well appointed office more than 100 million dollars was spent on television at sizing the party convention, you pay closehere attention to the race. at the washington times, this looks at the campaign for the senate, in effort made by the coke network to add,

particularly target those races in the senate. prosperity, the main political advocacy arm jumped into the final two months rent of the campaign with $5 million digital ads for gop senate candidates in colorado, georgia, montana, not carolina, and texas. -- north carolina, and texas. about 11 million in north carolina alone, according to the article. when it comes to those debates, when you saw the announcement last week on the three debates featuring the president and joe biden. a new poll out reported on by usa today, saying a greater share, 40% of an -- 47% predicted the president would win the debate and 47% said joe biden well, despite the fact that 30% -- 33% responded to some of the --

37% of the convention made them less likely. that is at usa today you want to read more. , an it comes to the military supporter of president trump, we go to market. go ahead. caller: good morning. i'm going to look at it statistically what biden and obama have accomplished versus trump. -- during his administration he beat back isis, killed solemani, showed unbelievable restraint in using the military under difficult situations. biden, by his own administration, he was not right on any foreign policy decision at all. he also did not support killing solemani or bin laden during the administration. clearly is compromised by china with his son being paid by the chinese government. also, obama and biden gave money to iran, their mortal enemy during the iraq and afghanistan work.

essentially, obama funded killing our own men and women. secondarily, also, we have a situation where he beat back isis and completely destroyed the caliphate without costing any lives. here is the statistic that is mindbending. only 16 lives were lost in the last -- obama and biden's, thousands died and were wounded. a close comparison, it should be 100% trump and 0% biden. statistically, he is a far better military leader than he is. so we know what they are going to do, it is a matter of looking at the facts. host: i'll leave it there. nathaniel, georgia, hi. caller: yes, i'm hearing a lot of things talking about president trump, but one thing

you must understand is that president trump said he knows more than the generals. this dude has never served in the military at all, so how does he know more than the generals? also, in order to be the commander-in-chief, you must understand leadership comes with the top rank. if the top rank does not respect you, how do you expect the troops to respect you? i look at the big picture, and all of these people talking about the gentleman a while ago that made a comment, which was false. one thing about going to war, can you hear me? host: you are on, go ahead. caller: one thing about going to war, if you don't go outside, no one's going to die. that's the reason why you don't have deaths like the obama and bush era, because it has changed. so were talking about leadership, trump does not have leadership. what he said about john mccain

definitely turned me off. anytime you have a leader that downgrades anybody in the military, that is not a leader and that is not who we follow. a trueamerican, sergeant that served. host: that is nathaniel. david in michigan. a supporter of joe biden, hello. caller: thank you for taking my call. i would like to make a correction and a comment if you will let me. you say that joe biden got a deferment. deferment because he was going to college, and many college kids got deferments. that is completely different than paying off a doctor, saying a falsehood that you have bone spurs. we all know, when you have bone spurs, as you get older, they get worse, and he would never, ever be able to play the golf he has played, so that is a correction. confuse --t

host: i am just treating a deferment as a deferment. caller: that deferment was for college. own spurs was false. host: so you are a supporter of joe biden? caller: my comment is joe biden war,bama stopped the iraq and they got bin laden. they have an excellent record for the military, and we all spurs in cheif didn't do anything -- in chief didn't do anything for the military. to the't even go cemetery on july 4 because he was afraid the rain would make his wig falloff. host: let's go to andrew -- by the way, if you go to the military times, they quote michael cohen when it comes to this topic of the president's

deferment. they characterize it that michael cohen who also worked as a fixer for trump before the election, said he was tamping down criticism of the military deferment. john mccain but i like people who weren't captured. mr. trump claimed medical deferment was because of the bone spur. when i asked for medical records, he gave me none and said there was no surgery. answer thenot to specific questions by reporters but offer the fact that he received a medical deferment. he finished the conversation with a comment "you think i'm stupid, i wasn't going to vietnam." those are attributed to michael cohen has a recent book out on the president. thomas in north carolina, a supporter of president trump. caller: good morning. the reason i am supporting president trump is, look at what he has done for the va hospital. if you live a long ways from avi

hospital,- from a va you can be reimbursed. what has joe biden done for the v.a.? zero. vote trump/pens in november. chicago,vin is next in illinois. retired military, hi. caller: how are you doing? i was in the vietnam war. i have one question i really want to say. when people say the difference between joe biden and donald trump, start off with the first issue. who lied? donald trump lies more than anybody in the world. he took military money from the military to build a five mile wall. donald trump does everything for donald trump. if you are not included in it, you are not included in it. host: so what will joe biden do for military than? caller: joe biden will do what

he is doing, what's going on now. he can improve it. military,hings in the they have tactics they don't even use in airplanes they don't use. host: so if you say joe biden can improve things, what can he improve? caller: he can improve the logistics of how the military spends their money. everybody already knows [inaudible] anything they ask for, that's what they want, the same thing. host: that's melvin in chicago. the comments about the atlantic you had mentioned when joe biden talked yesterday in pennsylvania. those comments also the centerpiece of a new ad by the organization -- an organization based on the president's comments. here it is. [video clip] ♪

>> my stepson was not a loser. >> my son is not a loser. >> my son is not a loser. >> my stepson was not a sucker. scottcorporal alexander died in 2004. >> my son, sergeant james anthony the second, gave his life in afghanistan in 2010. >> [speaking spanish] honorably serving his country. >> that is something donald trump will never know. >> that is something donald trump will never understand. >> my message to donald trump as this, you have no right being commander-in-chief. >> [speaking spanish] host: kathleen joins us from florida, a supporter of president trump. good morning. caller: good morning.

host: you are on, go ahead. caller: alright. i support president trump. i think it is unfortunate the other side has to rely on lies to try to make their point. they did it with kavanaugh, they did it with the russian investigation, just go ahead and tell people where we are right now, what you plan to do. i think all of us who listen should understand one person alone cannot do anything. he would have to have the support of congress, the support of the public do things, so for anyone to stand up there and say, i, i, i. host: so when it comes to president trump's management, how would you rate it and why? caller: i think he is doing a great job.

i have military on both sides of the family. when my first son-in-law died in vietnam. so i know what i'm talking about. we have had it, too. anyone who lost anyone in the family outside of the military, of course it is a pain. it is i hurt you never get over, but i think president trump wants to make our military able to defend us. and we certainly were not for the last few years after world war ii. i think our military slowly went down. it was not nearly the force to be reckoned with that it was in world war ii. kathleen from florida, thank you very much. to her point, going back in time to 2017, the white house chief of staff then, john kelly, his own son dying in afghanistan in combat. it was during a back-and-forth he was sharing that experience and talk about the process of

soldiers dying and how administrations notify families. you can see it in full at our website, c-span.org. here's a portion. [video clip] >> most americans don't know what happens when we lose one of our soldiers in combat. let me tell you what happens. up inbuddies wrapped them whatever passes as a shroud, puts them on a helicopter, and sends them home. their first stop along the way is when they are packed in ice, typically at the airhead, and they are flown to usually europe , where they are then packed in ice again and flown to dover air force base, where they take care of the remains, and bombs them them, meticulously dresses them with the metals

that they have worn and then puts them on another airplane linked up to the casualty officer escort that takes them home. a very good movie to watch if you have not seen it is taking chance, where this is done in a movie, hbo setting. can -- myled under my command next to me. it is worth seeing it if you have not. so that is the process. while that is happening, the casualty officer typically goes to the home early in the morning and waits for the first lights to come on. then, he knocks on the door, typically the mom and dad will answer, the wife. if there is a wife, this is happening in two different places. if the parents are divorced, three different places. the casualty officer proceeds to break the heart of a family member. untilays with that family , well, for a long time, even

after the internment. so that is what happens. who are these young men and women? they are the best 1% this country produces. most of you, as americans, don't know them. many of you don't know anyone who knows any of them, but they are the best for this country -- they are the best the country this bird -- they are the best this country produces. when there's nothing anymore that seems to suggest a self-service to the nation is not only appropriate but required. host: again, if you want to see that again, go to the website at c-span.org. that was john kelly in 20 when he was still white house chief of staff. retiredine for active military from royal oak, michigan, we will hear from jim. caller: hello. war, in during the korean so i had [inaudible]

i was in the infantry. it blew up and they sent me to germany. soon a deferment, and as as i got finished with college, my first four years, i was drafted and went to germany. every saturday, they would tell us that the only reason we were there in germany was if there was a war, it would be fought there and not in the united states. when trump talks about europe and all of that, we were there to protect america, not to protect europe. host: what did you do in the korean war? in math company. i was overseas in germany, but during the korean war. war -- i was in

ie army during korea, but have a -- from the base of my spine. i couldn't stay in the infantry. interrupt, map company, can you describe what your role wasn't what you did? caller: he would make maps for going to you know, for war and all of that. that is what we did. host: that is jim, giving us experiences in the korean war, related to them to issues revolvin -- involving germany. ohio, a supporter abide in, brenda, hello. caller: hello. i think a president, when he takes on the job, he takes on a big job, and his job is to be like the father of the country.

the country takes care of everyone. our military is like our shining star, the greatest people. , when youon't think disparage and denigrate people that are there, giving their ,ives to protect our country and it is not the generals and stuff that have anything to do with buying or supporting arms. it is actually big business. all of this we keep seeing about trump, it has to be true. when there is anything on the news that is a sniff of anything disparaging or bad, there are too many sources to prove it wrong or right. i hope our nation can come together and pick a person that

will take care of americans, not himself or business. -- i host: president host: when the president talked about the military leaders, he incited this idea of the business of military and questions them on that front. what do you think of those statements when it comes to the business side of military? caller: he is supporting business. and weaponsg arms to other countries, and does not talk about that. he is only into the business part of that. host: all administrations have done that over time. caller: i know that, but he is not talking about it. he is acting like he wants to stop war. he is promoting it on the business side, and he took money from the vets for their homes. when you take care of the military, you take care of them at home and give them weapons and training to protect themselves and ourselves

overseas if something comes up. host: that is brenda in ohio. we go to california with michael, a supporter of president trump. you are on. caller: yes, hi. what i'm seeing about mr. trump and president, people don't realize -- people call him a thug, a gangster, and the mk -- may come out like he is doing the wrong thing. nra,arily, to me, the national rifle association, and the camouflage blew me away. first of all, we are not military organization. you can go back to abe lincoln, in the confederate years. what i'm trying to say is mr. trump is doing the best job. on weeks ago, i was laying my couch, flat out thinking

about trump, what he was talking merits for the mexicans. the democrats want to tear down the wall in mexico, release the prisoners, have rapists on the streets, in our america. host: ok. that is michael and the last call for this topic. we appreciate all of you have called in this morning -- all of you that have called in this morning. we hear from two guests this morning. off, andyant starts us author of a book called police and community relations. later on in the program, author and commentator armstrong williams on his latest book, " what black-and-white america must do now, a prescription to move beyond race." those conversations are coming up on "washington journal." ♪

pres. trump: biden's record as a shameful roll call of the most catastrophic betrayals and blunders in our lifetime. [applause] he has spent his entire career on the wrong side of history. >> our current president has failed. in his most basic duty to the nation, he has failed to protect us. he has failed to protect americans. that is unforgivable. >> the first presidential debate between donald trump and joe biden is tuesday, september 29 at 9:00 p.m. eastern watch live coverage -- eastern. watch live coverage on c-span and live streaming and on-demand on c-span.org, or listen live on the free c-span radio app. ♪ you are watching c-span, your unfiltered view of government.

created by america's cable television company as a public service and brought to you today by your television provider. "washington journal" continues. host: our first guess this morning is dwayne bryant, the author of the book, "the stop, improving police and community relations." guest: it's great to be her, how are you? host: i'm well, thank you. and you tell our audience, unfamiliar with your background. guest: i'm an alumni of the fbi citizens academy and part of a civilian office of police accountability in chicago. i have also done a couple town policeetings in chicago departments and had a privilege of speaking in virginia with seven different police departments, as well as harrisburg. book,so the title of your

because it deals with improving issues of police and community relations. how would you characterize those relations as they stand today? [laughter] guest: if anyone has two eyes, two years and half a brain, they can see the relationship is very strange. police and community relations are probably at an all-time low. it will require solutions. host: would you say the status or the range of relationship has always been the same for many years and is only different this year because of recent events? what has changed over time? guest: the reality is, if you understand history, history believes the black community relations were always trained militia goese or out to see [inaudible] so that relationship has always been strained. i think what we see now is

because we have cell phones and see it on a weekly basis. i think it has been here all along but now we can see it. once you can see something, you realize how bad or good it is. host: so when you say the word stop as suggested in your title is accurately -- actually an accurate them -- actually an acronym. supporttop stands for the teaching of principles. my company has provided mentor programs for over 35,000 youth in chicago and support -- in florida. this whole tension between police and community will be eliminated. students cover 70 to 80% of all suspensions. -- 70% to 80% of all suspensions.

the police force is 20% of the police officers. so there's a correlation between the work we are doing and what i'm seeing now in the real grown-up world. just like we can fix it in the schools, we can fix it in the police department. host: as far as a specific principle, what is the overriding principle amongst the suggestions and advice you give. guest: that is a great question. integrity, trust, honesty, open and honest communication, those are the principles we teach as --l as if they operated with those principles, you would 100 percent reduce the likelihood of someone getting shot unnecessarily. host: we live in an age where there is a debate going on as far as taking budgets from turningorces and maybe

them into social officers. is that what you are advising and if that is the case, how does that work best? guest: defunding is one of the reform strategies. i'm not necessarily for police defunding, but i am for stricter accountability. i'm not for forcing -- funding these choices -- forces. they have a pattern of shooting unnecessarily at citizens, a pattern of doing many different things that officers are not sworn to do. in those particular cases, if those agencies are not upholding their oath, we should look at how they are funded, do we need more social workers on the force? do we need to restructure how they are being funded, because i don't think anyone in their be fundingwe should

criminal organizations that have badges to enforce unnecessary practices in communities. host: criminal organizations that have badges, what do you mean by that? guest: what i mean by that is simply this, i believe the majority of law enforcement officers are decent people. i still believe that. i also believe there are elements. some people say it is about 10% on fox but i believe it is closer to 20% or more. if you have 20% of your officers engaging in patterns and practices that demonize the community, profiles the community, then we are paying the salaries of law enforcement officers that are destroying communities. many neo-nazis and white supremacist organizations have infiltrated law enforcement, so if that police officer is showing up to me, i mean no harm to anyone,

and they are going to either kill, destroy, or figure out a way to destroy me, i don't think we should be funding them, and they are a liability to the american public. host: dwayne bryant joining us, book, and youhis can call us on the lines. (202) 748-8000 for the eastern and central time zones, (202) 748-8001 mountain and pacific time zones, and if you are a member of law enforcement, (202) 748-8002. you can also text a set (202) 748-8003. i'm sure there have been a lot of books and studies on this issue. what made you, and why did you want to enter into this issue? guest: here the answer to that. i was at a workshop in chicago on the south side with fourth, fifth, and sixth graders. i asked a set -- a simple question, if you are on the

court in a police officer came up to you, what would they -- what would you do? they said run. i said why would you run? because they said we don't want to get shot, harassed, or stopped from going home. toa grown man talking fourth, fifth, and sixth graders, i realize we have a major problem. when i was a child, i did not have that level of fear but did not see what they see on a weekly basis with law enforcement. so what can i do? havebeen working -- i been working with young people so what can i do to ensure they do not have to have that fear for the rest of their lives? also, i know a lot of great officers. my father was a police officer. i also want to represent the great men and women in blue that are doing a wonderful job whose name was also stained on what is going on. had: at an early age, you

an encounter with police that i suppose shaped what you do today. guest: sure, i have a police encounter. my brother and i, my father left at two years old, we would run after school, jump on some of the students, and bring the bikes back. we jumped on a couple bikes that were brand-new, and when the child came out, they called their parents, police were looking for the people that stole their bikes. as we were headed back to the school, the police put their sirens on behind us and said what are you guys doing? we said hey, officer, we are writing some friends bikes. what are the names of your friends? the names? we didn't know so he said those bikes are stolen. we said they are not stolen, we are just writing. my mom said what is going on? the police officers that ma'am, your children have stolen these

bikes. if you're black and your mom gives you that look, you know that look. we were more afraid of her. she gave us that look and said, we didn't take anything. she said who's bikes are these? i said ma'am -- he said ma'am, i want to make sure your sons don't steal again. she said officer, please don't put your handcuffs on them and put them in the car. he said how are you going to stop them again? interesting,hing he said i don't want you to beat your children. she said i'm going to beat them before you beat them with a billy club or shoot them in the back. and we are, what? why would we get shot in our back for writing bikes? , but everyave a clue child in america, black, white, or hispanic knows exactly what my mother was talking about. about seven different

encounters i've had with law enforcement. i tell them what happens, but then i talk about what would have happened if my brother and i had jumped off the bikes and started running. what would have happened if my mom was rude and belligerent and started cussing the office out, what if this police officer was a racist and wanted to dehumanize us? everyone is responsible for the police encounter. police are not the only ones responsible. he have a responsibility as well. however, they have the majority of the responsibility because they are trained and are swarmed -- sworn -- and have sworn to protect and serve in the law. chapter four, because of that encounter, it was a demonstration i participated in. was int encounter

indiana and that went viral, that is what the book is about. host: let's go to calls from california starting us off. harold, go ahead. caller: i talk to a lot of police officers through the years and a lot of the fatal police shootings are due to the way they are trained, coming down from the top, the mayor supervisors, district attorney and everyone else, they are taught to shoot if they are going to pull a gun, because of liabilities and settlements, and liabilities, they have to pay more so they are shot to -- they are taught to shoot twice in the torso and one in the head. this is what i've heard from a lot of officers. down just -- this comes from the top and so much of this is getting laid out on the officer. code because they have a that they probably don't want to say but that is the way it is,

that they are trained at the academy to shoot like that if they will draw their weapons, because they do not want a liability. the city does not want a liability. host: harold in california, think you. guest: here's what's about that. say ife officer did you're going to pull your gun, you don't do it to brandish it or show it off or issue the threat, you pull it to neutralize the threat, and you continue shooting until the threat is neutralized. so i hear what he is saying, and a two to the chest want to the head sounds like a jason bourne movie. most of these police officers don't you that well to start with, but now they will hit you in the head? let's go back to what he said, the liability portion. in chicago, from 2004 to 2020, $1cago paid out nearly billion in police misconduct.

if i'm black, white, any race and i know my taxpayer dollars are going to pay $1 billion because police are not trained properly, shooting at moving vehicles, using on tactical, unsound police practices in discharging their firearms, that is a problem, but i agree that it is not so much on the officers. we have to look at the police departments, chiefs, and the unions. the unions get paid to shield and protect their police officers, no matter how terrible of a police officer they are. some police officers need to be fired. i will say it again, some police officers need to be fired. they are not fit for the force and are more a liability in these communities than a asset. when a police department that serious about those police departments, one had over 17 complaints and murdered someone

in chicago. he had dozens of complaints, so why are those police still on the force? because unions protect them. i talked to police chief's that want to get rid of police officers as may times as they can. host: akron, ohio, james is up next. caller: before i want to make a statement, there is one thing i do not understand that i hear most of the time, and most of the time it is white people that have not had any confrontation with the police. they always say most people who get shot get shot because they do not obey the orders of the police. the thing about that, the tone of voice the police use when they talk to black people, when they pull you over or whatever the situation is, is far different than the way they talk to white people. i have been present in both situations with the white gentleman that happened to be riding in the backseat, being

the only black in the car. they let us go with a warning, but the way they approached it was different. when they come to the black person car, they come with a belligerent type of an attitude, so automatically, if you are man, and i don't care what race you are, there is a tone of voice. you don't just talk to another man like he is a kid. so you owe them a little bit of respect, but here's the statement i want to make about the police is that i have a couple good friends in the police and a niece that is a policeman and a grandson that is a policeman. firsthand, about the situation, what goes on in the department, and they are not going to cross the line, as far as telling what went on in the situation. they will take the one guy they know will make the kind of report they want, and that is

the person in charge of making the reports. host: let me stop you there and i apologize for that. we have to get more calls in but take what james has brought to the table and go ahead. guest: james is right on point. we've all seen the videos of the white guy jumping at a police car, fighting with two police officers, grabs the billy club, is the police officer, then takes the police car and drives down the street, the whole time the police are stop, wait. if that was my black behind, i guarantee you i would have two bullets to the chest, one to the 12 more. about they treat white people different. implicit bias, that is what most police departments are starting to understand. everyone treats people differently the way you were raised or brought up.

there are police officers afraid of white people and they are a blackity in neighborhoods. police officers that are inherently racist, as many are, we really have to know who these police officers are. there's another point made at the end. i have to start writing things down and 50 now so the memory is not what it used to be. host: we will go to joe. , new jersey.k caller: i want to say, respect and comply. ok, sounds like that was it. is two beautiful words why people love to use. all you have to do is respect and comply. that is absolutely true and absolutely foolish. comply withtile did

everything the police officer he said io do, and have a firearm and the police officer said get it and show me has firearm card. as soon has he was complying and being respectful, he got killed. a policeoyd, also officer he was complying and respect so -- respectful. he even called the police officers serve multiple times and he got killed. i believe white people, not all, many have this myth that police officers, generally speaking, are the good people. the myth of a few bad apples is a lie. let me prove that. over 35,000 police officers in america have lost their certifications. drugs 4000 of them were -- had drugs and alcohol in their system.

them for robbery, another 2000 for theft. when we look at a few bad apples, we really need to get our facts straight. i know there's a population in america who don't like science, don't like facts, prefer opinions. i'm cool with opinions, but i like facts better because you see more intelligent -- i see more intelligent when i go to bat. has been disbarred. over 85,000 has been investigated as well as received some level of reprimands. in new york, they released 323,000911 officers -- 911 officers had complaints against them. chicago just released their files on 100,000 complaints and

less than 3% were investigated. when i hear ignorant statements such as comply and respect, i say sir, i appreciate your statement. i wish i had the white privilege you have that you can do that say whatever you stopped me for and not get shot. i do not have that privilege as a black man in america, but i always say if a police officer will treat me like a white man, i'm cool. if you can't, treat me like a white person's dog. but if you treat me like a black man, i might get shot and that is not what i want. host: you talk about this book of -- concept of bad apples in your book changing police forces from within, can you kind of summarize for that -- summarize that for the viewing audience? guest: sure. stop five years ago, even though it is definitely applicable today.

i just completed a 17 part online series called the new conversation because we need a new conversation in america. we are tired of the same conversation. onre's a new conversation the left side. i talk about a few bad apples and we break down different statistics and talk about the ones i just mentioned being to certified -- decertified, looking at the different state of going on, different state -- different state of what's going on. right now, the second-most crucial pandemic in america is police brutality. number one is covid. we are losing to any lives to this. series,bout in that solutions, what everyone can do in the community. it is not just a police problem, it is a policing community problem. when it comes to improving relations,

i lay that out beautifully in the 17 part series. he is referencing , we are talking with duane bryant. -- dwayne bryant. caller: i'm so glad you are on because i have had this question for a while. 12ave been in since march because of the pandemic and i watched the mayor briefing every day. a journalist said to him, why did they get rid of the requirement that police officers in new york not have to live in the city. he said because it is too expensive to have police officers in the city. the journalists said the administrative people that work with the police department department live in the city. i wonder if it would be better if they have that requirement. at least it wouldn't be like police owing into a foreign land with their fear and strapping up. maybe it would be part of the solution.

what does it say about our cities that people accept this idea that police officers on their salary cannot afford to live in cities like chicago and new york. beautiful --s a guest: that's a beautiful question, my answer is yes and no. i think it is a great idea because it brings back the concept that dr. brown introduced, community policing. when you are a part of the community, you have more respect , knowledge, and the community has more respect for you versus an outside force here to patrol or sometimes terrorize communities. however, just because you may live in a community does not make you a better officer. if i am a racist, i don't care what community i live in, my mind, my heart, my thoughts, and my action are going to be the same no matter what community i live in. to me, it is not so much about

location, it is about who you are as an individual. if i live in a an all-white or all spanish community, i'm not going to start harming people or stealing from my neighbors, or robbing or shooting the dog. i'm not going to do that because that is not who i am. that's why we have to find out who are these police officers, what type of mental capacity do they have, what implicit or explicit bias training have they reactionswhat kind of if they shot a black boy and thought he was a 40-year-old man. when one talks about different ways police officers dehumanize black kids. personally, you don't have to live in my community to respect me, to uphold the law, to not break your own laws. i would rather have a police who

did not live in my community, getting a professional versus one who does not live in my community but is paralyzed in my community. i understand the premise, i support it, it is not 100% necessary and depends on the officer. host: to follow-up on reactions law enforcement can do, this is libby on twitter. she asks that the leo department s haveforcement office several nonlethal means. she advises use these instead of killing a suspect. guest: i think it makes perfectly good sense. i have no questions with that. however, there are times where lethal force is necessary. when we did some simulations at the fbi academy, i had a firearm in my hand, and we were to known white

supremacists and i could feel my blood -- i knew it was a computer screen, but i could feel my body getting prepared. quickly andm out had no second thoughts about it. but it is because there are times where lethal force is necessary. there are times where a rubber bullet and taser will not do a trick. -- do the trick. america is a drugged out nation. there are people walking around on pcp and all kind of illicit drugs that makes them stronger, more aggressive, makes their mental capacity not where it should be, so if a police officer is against that, they are not against a regular human being. so lethal force is sometimes necessary, not always. host: here's gary in connecticut. go ahead. caller: good morning. i wanted to say that i have been outraged of all of the shootings of black individuals.

it is horrifying to me, but i wanted to make the point, going back, i am in my 70's. going back to my childhood, i worked in the movie theater, picture an alley with a cabaret. my job that evening was to put the letters on the marquee. i was going back and forth with letters, and there was a disturbance at the cabaret with a number of police officers there. one of them grabbed me and threw me against the wall and put a club in my throat because someone made a snarky comment, not me, from someone else. he wouldn't even let me explain that i was doing my job, working there, wasn't interfering with them. that was one of a couple unpleasant encounters i have had with abusive police officers. there were two or three, and i have been clean-cut, hard-working, college-educated

do think it has gotten worse now than it was when i was a kid. >> ok, thank you for your comment. believe it or not, it has actually gotten better according to the data. police shootings, particularly of unarmed black man have decreased nearly 70% from the 60's. that's not to say it is good at but that means in the 60's police were just killing black men randomly anytime they wanted to. welcome, you can name a city and it was going on. now,se we had cell phones it seems like it is actually worse. it is absolutely terrible. however, the police shootings of unarmed black man have actually gone down.

however, it is still completely unnecessary, it is really high, and it is higher than what it needs to be. host: can we extend the conversation to what we're seeing in some cities across the united states with issues taking place in some of the studies that you've been talking about? what you see, and what should be done? guest: could you be a little bit more specific so i could answer? the rights that people described in portland and other places, what do you think of those incidents, and what should be done in those incidents? guest: got it. let's say george floyd, we can look at breonna taylor, we can look at -- i'm sorry, i don't always remember the names. we can look at different instances. what is amazing is when we see the footage like george floyd,

what do we see? complied, this man did everything that a law enforcement asked. breonna taylor, police came to the wrong address. now we find out that the whole government is trying to reject for five -- regentrify. we saw that the guy in denver was killed and then the police withto the grave and posed pictures making fun of him dead. when people begin to see that we have some people in uniform who andjust not good people, they are being protected, they that makeshielded, the neighborhood angry. because, how do we trust the people that we are supposed to trust when they have proven themselves unworthy of trust? it is the same thing we saw in the 1700s.

when america said we are tired of the british, we are tired of the unfair practices, we're tired of the oppressive government and policing, so what are we going to do? we are going to declare independence and we are going to destroy some buildings. this looting and destruction is not new in american history, it has always been done. we don'tit in 1776, like it now because something else a shifting. now it is not just black people, it is white people. because white kids are playing with black kids and listening to the same music, so when their parents with some of their views, portland, my lord. hasmany days hasn't been -- it been? wedon't even want to go to the police department. now america has a privileged problem because black people have a privilege that we don't have.

now that they are saying we want are goinghange, they to get it or else america is going to have a bigger problem on its hands. host: such as what? guest: we have one police department burned down, we may have more. what people are saying, my friend, is that we want justice. we want to stop protecting and shielding unlawful, criminal officers working in police department. they need to be prosecuted. that's all people are asking and personally, i think it is fair. we want them in our neighborhoods, we want them controlling our streets, but the ones who are criminalalizing communities, we're not going to stand for that. everyone, police and owingnities, stop all

criminals to terrorize your neighborhoods and we can be human beings again. host: we will hear from bruce in denver, colorado for our guest dwayne bryan, go ahead. caller: thank you for taking my call. my quick comment is that, and i will stick to colorado, for some reason, there is this narrative that blacks are not for law and order. i'm 57 and never member just jokingly when i was like 10, i made a comment about calling the cops a cop and my mom and dad said you respect officers. in my state, it is amazing that you are saying that i don't know officers who think that blacks are more prone. in my state, the three officers that i've known who have been murdered, one was a white supremacist. another got shot by a 15-year-old kid, and another guy

got shot responding to a domestic violence, i can't remember the exact years. in all cases, these shooters were all white and the officers were all white. how these white officers think however every time we approach a black person, we're going to do harm. in my state alone, even if you years ago back in 2009 or 2010, a guy got released from prison, he was a white supremacist, he killed a guy working at a pizza ande, stole the uniform, killed the correctional officer who was white and ended up getting killed himself in texas. that was my comment. i don't really think you understand why white officers think we are going to be more of a threat. bundy, he points weapons at federal officers.

about a week or so after that shooting in el paso, another guy in ohio, a heavily armed white man, they talked him down. and there was a shooting in a church in the bottom burger king. but when you are unarmed in black, you are a threat. host: we are going to leave it there so he can respond. guest: you are absolutely correct, but that's why we must understand the history of america. know we have many white folks including our wonderful president donald trump who wants to pretend that races and does not exist, slavery is a thing of the past and has no implications of the present. those are all lies. black people had decriminalized in this country since they came here in 1619. let's look at a couple of things. black on black crime. blackpeople kill more

people, white people kill more white people. whitever hear white on crime because in america it is a crime to be black. another thing, blacks are known for drugs. use way more drugs than black teens, however, we think about black people. do,ything that black people and this may seem like a hyperbole, but when black people do is criminalized. when white people do it it is just a bunch of rambunctious teenagers. when black people are in hurricane katrina, they are looters, they are refugees. white people, we need help. black people, historically speaking, have been treated differently in this country week of this country was founded on white supremacy. country's systems,

education, health care, government, media, religion, have been founded on white supremacy, so white supremacy, and i talk about this quite a bit, is one of the greatest evils in this nation across the world because it makes white people feel as though they are better just because they are white and you are worse just because you're black. and factually speaking, there is of theirl proof military power other than killing people, destroying people, civilizations and committing genocide on people. outside of that, there is no proof that white supremacy is a real thing and we need to get away from that. host: ken from michigan, go ahead. caller: i've noticed two things. the first comment i want to make, i am for equal justice and i think a lot of folks really are for equal justice. exists, iracism believe it exists on all sides, though. there's as many black racists who believe they are superior as they probably are whites,

proportionally. here's my question for you. with that in the background, you talk about the amount of white supremacist police officers. in new york city, 48% of the police force is black. -- in you describe chicago, 28%. you can look this up yourself. i googled it five minutes ago. of, you look at the amount i will call imbalance in white, black, hispanic, however you want to say it, you are trying to say that these police, a large portion of the police are treating the people differently. when you have a 48% black police force, how do you describe or how do you somehow rationalize the same thing? have all these wonderful black police officers gone rogue? i'm interested. want toirst of all, i say thank you for being for equal justice, i appreciate that

and we need more people like you. second thing, i think i want to on 20% ofyour stat officers in chicago are black and 48%. now, i don't believe the majority of police officers are bad or racist, i don't believe so. i believe probably about 20%, which is nowhere near a majority. however, that 20% to create havoc in any city and any police department around america. if you have a classroom of 25 students and you have 20% of the students acting a fool all the time, that is only five students. can overrun it0% and make it very difficult for the teacher. that, andd never say if i did say that, i would like to apologize. i would never say i believe the majority of police officers are racist, because i don't think

so. i believe the majority of them are decent. however, i believe the majority of them lack the level of leadership we need to make sure that they keep their officers, their comrades in check when they are violating human rights, when they are violating constitutional rights, when they are violating the own that is there to protect and serve. people feel the same way about black police officers as they do white police officers because black police officers can be unruly as well. a black we would prefer police officer because a black police officer is less likely to kill us whereas a racist white officer would do it without any knowing iughts, thought they had a gun, my life was in danger, they know the rules that will get them off. we are not gung ho about black officers just because they are black. we are gung ho about

professional police officers, and that is that we are asking for patrolling our neighborhoods. house passedthe legislation when it comes to certain police practices, we saw not passing, we saw an executive order. solution legislative as far as practices by police? i think legislation is good, i think if it has teeth there is a level of accountability. i think it is the on legislation, it is about how human beings react. we all have biases. racism is theof ability to affect systems that can systematically destroye. we have a few black people in the country who are powerful.

none of them together with all of their money have the power to affect systems that can systematically destroy white people. i'm going to push back on the black people being racist thing because i don't think he has that level of power in this country. but i do believe policies are necessary, i do believe if you're a politician, right now, 92% of black people believe there is a problem with policing in america, 75% of hispanics, 92% democrats, 55% of republicans. you have an ounce of intelligence and you're a politician and you're not talking police reform, you probably won't be in office long. host: the department of justice has a certain role in overseeing and looking at cases, some of these cases shootings in the light. what you think of their oversight? guest: i absolutely love what the department of justice did. they went to different cities, chicago, baltimore, and they found many patterns of practice

by letting our citizens constitutional rights, shootings which are against policy. it is almost like these are rogue police officers doing toothpi the h e double cks they want. many people say oh my god, if you would just respect the police and comply, they wouldn't be a problem. have intelligence agency called the department of justice that came down and said it doesn't matter if you comply, it doesn't matter if you're respectful. if you are black and brown, you might get treated a certain way just because this particular officer is a white male who is 37 years old, and usually what is going on, we need more department of justice inquiries into what is going on in police department. we need more accountability and we also need more things to help

with police accountability in chicago to investigate police misconduct. host: lancaster, virginia, james, hello. caller: my question to the author is, did he ever think that his first encounter with the police officers that if he did not steal the products, he would never have had the encounter in the beginning? thing, black people do have power. look at vice president that biden pick as his running mate. 100 influential black people wrote a letter saying who to pick and he picked. i'm just confused about this, right is right and wrong is wrong. not stealing would never have put you in that spot in the beginning. your mama did the right thing because that is what my mama would have done. guest: [laughter] james, first of all, brother, i want to say i love you.

chapter one, it is not called stolen bike, it is called our invite -- borrowed bike. affectsrontal cortex your ability to have sound reasoning, lost her decision-making, short-term decision-making. we thought we are just going to jump on the spikes and have some fun for about 10 minutes. we never thought we were stealing, we were borrowing the bike, we had done that several times and nothing had ever happened. so let's say if you were that officer, let's say you may have said look at these black thieves, let me block them up now. gone toer and i have college, i went on academic scholarship, he is a contractor that is worked on $100 million projects. us, it islocked up very likely that our whole lives would've been changed.

so police have powerful discretion. which is why they choose to do what they do. bikes, we steal the borrowed the bikes, but i do appreciate that you had a good mother, too. harris, she was definitely my pick. she had something of a controversial history as well because she was considered a cops, she is a perfect candidate for joe biden because she understands both sides. i also think she has a heart for justice. i also believe that you have the mental capacity and the mental cognizance that she can make the

proper decision tool law enforcement accountable but also not just take the side of the community, but she also has a standard for the community, and she wants those to improve. kamala harris, you've got my vote. host: on that front, i'm sure you've heard as much as many about who is the next president about joe biden and his work on the 94 crime bill. what is your opinion of that bill and what it did for african-americans. guest: oh man, this is why you are on the station, because you ask great questions. my answer is this. nixon, '72, criminalizing black people. reagan doubled down on it. just say no, doubled down. president clinton, black people give him a pass as the first black president. bill clinton locked up more black people in the bushes did, but he got a pass. he no longer gets a pass. the crime bill or whatever it is called, three strikes and you're

out was detrimental to the black community because again, according to the stats, black people use drugs just as much as white people. people get off. they are not criminalized. now we have millions of these men locked up. drugs so theye can participate in these revenue streams that they got locked up for. to me, that is criminal in and of itself. joe biden, donald trump calls and sleepy joe, i believe we have to leave room for people to grow. i believe we have to leave room for people to evolve. we can make a mistake like i did , however, now,e i won't take anything from anyone. i do believe that we have to i am not goingso to hold that against them as long as they understand where we

are today, where we are with the need for a cut ability for law enforcement, i believe, harris could keep him mindful of some of those mistakes he has made because she did that during the campaign. everyone gets a break, everyone should get a pass. up,if you keep messing first of all, i'm not a democrat, let me say that. don't assume that because i'm black. host: looking at president his effortften cites on the criminal reform act, what do you think his influence has been overall? guest: when you tell a police officer, hey, if you arrest them, if you happen to knock them in the head, tight not the handcuffs, what you're saying is it is ok to criminalize people. butcan't write legislation say something else that is considered inconsistent. it is considered bipolar, it is

considered mentally unstable. now, do i think the policy or the order is the first step in the right direction? absolutely. guess what, i'm not public in either, so don't get excited. i'm independent. i believe it was a step in the right direction, i believe it came out with more teeth than any legislation that is not looking at these police unions that is not doing enough because it is the police union that are helping to aid and abet what we're seeing across america. host: another quick question because you brought it up, the topic what unions bring up, that of qualified immunity. guest: i think we need to end qualified immunity because here is the deal. if you have the right to kill me, to destroy me, to assassinate me, to plant drugs on the, i cannot go after you and your assets, i believe that is a problem.

if everyone that is watching this goes to youtube and looks yant, i have a piece on their called the white lie. it is talking about how many saide have lied and certain things about blacks that did not happen and it creates crazy problems. in that, i am talking about qualified immunity. end this is loss of revenue or loss of life. loss of revenue, you can sue a police officer for damages, they might think twice about killing you. loss of life is not saying go out and stop telling them, that is absolutely crazy. but the mentality of white supremacy has to end because telling you that i'm better than you just because i'm white, because i drive a mercedes, i

must be a drug dealer, that cannot happen today because what is going on, many people are being criminalized when it is completely unnecessary. oncheck out the white lie youtube and you will see a lot of different things that are going on that we can solve. we've got to figure out this white supremacy stuff because that is the foundation of all of these things that are going wrong. white people are not the only white supremacists. some black people are white supremacists as well. host: texas, ben, good morning. caller: good morning. mr. bryant. guest: yes, sir. caller: i just wanted to bring to focus will we talk about these at apple police -- bad apple police, i'm reminded of about a week and a half ago, they had them on tv, a city in colorado.

these three police officers stopped a black girl that was 17 and the other three, the oldest one of them was 60. they had them face ground on the hot concrete. , because ofese kids their license plates. they had the same number license ,late as a stolen motorcycle but the stolen motorcycle plate was from a different state. they put these kids face down on the hot ground. these officers, they found out that the vehicle they were looking for was a motorcycle, not a car, and that the license plates was from another state and not colorado. host: with that in mind, what

you want our guests to address specifically? want to ask, you don't hear anything about that. host: if you wanted to respond to that. move: i love the way you your callers on because you are like me. a little patient, a little tolerance, a long conversation. those officers have to have discretion. they did not ever have to put those girls on the hot concrete. it, so i can't speak too much to something i don't fully know about. however, if they even looked something, i doing can almost guarantee you they would not have done that, and that is why we have to talk about dehumanization. when we have police officers who do things like that, it puts a stain on the community about them and about their mentality. who lays any human being on the

hot concrete? they are still in handcuffs. they could be handcuffed in the back of the police car while they run the investigation. they have to run the investigation and find out what are they here for, because they could be criminal. some black people are criminals, they need to be locked up. however, you cannot criminalize an entire race. host: we've got a few more minutes left with our guest. jeannie from montana, jump right in. caller: yes, good morning. i have about four comments i would like to bring up and then -- host: i'm sorry, we are not going to have time, so what is your top one? ok, how are we going to be able to -- sorry. how are we going to be able to fund and help the police and make them more accountable if we

are defunding the police at the same time? i come from a small community this kind ofsee thing. i just feel like it could be something that could be taken care of at all levels rather than just one big trying to fix it all at one time, and i know that this has been an ongoing situation. host: will have to leave it there, i apologize. go ahead. guest: hopefully we'll get your other questions another time. that is a beautiful question. if answer is simply this: you have less than 20% of police officers violating, committing 2004-2020,, from almost $1 billion has been paid off because of police misconduct. that is a cost. we are not looking at the cost

of having unprofessional police officers. they are a liability. no one likes liabilities. you fire the liability and do not given pension, you fire them because they are criminalizing people. honestly, if police departments did that, we wouldn't have to defund anything because we would not be looking for this. many police officers have brought this upon their department, unfortunately, and now they have to suffer the consequences of those actions. got rid ofce chief these officers, we would not be having this problem. defund not about let's the police for the fun of it. the criminals in the police let's have

law-abiding, fees and professional offices patrol our streets and let's increase police funding. let's give them the mental health they need, let's make sure they have insurance so they can have the counseling that they need because who really wants to be a police officer? most people don't, and most people cannot do the job. host: thanks for your time today. guest: thank you so much, i appreciate it and i hope i answered the questions appropriately. host: coming up, we are going to hear from radio talk shows and columnist armstrong williams. his latest book called what black and white america might be now, a prescription that moves beyond race, a conversation coming up on washington journal. ♪

record is a shameful rollcall of the most catastrophic betrayals and blunders in our lifetime. has spent his entire career on the wrong side of history. >> our current president has failed in his most basic duty to the nation. he has failed to protect us. he has failed to protect america. and my fellow americans, that is unforgivable. >> the first presidential debate between president donald trump informer vice president joe biden is tuesday, september 29, at 9:00 p.m. eastern. c-span,ve coverage on watch live streaming and on-demand at www.c-span.org or listen live on the free c-span radio app.

you are watching c-span, your unfiltered view of government. created by america's cable television companies as a public service and brought to you today by your television provider. washington journal continues. host: joining us now is armstrong williams, a columnist, a talkshow host, a radio host and the author of "what black and white america must do now: a prescription that moves beyond race." welcome. guest: good morning and thank you so much for having me. host: get the title of your book deals with a prescription, what has to be fixed? guest: good question. has been onur focus law enforcement, isolated from police brutality or individual that lost their lives. what we have a tendency to do is group everybody together at the same.

what america forgets about is individualism. it is very difficult for us to look at the case in minneapolis with george floyd in with law enforcement, the first thing we think about, he was a black guy. it was a white law enforcement officer. that tells me everything i need to know about why this took place. what happens is, when you try to make it an issue and the person who is responsible for it was white, you eliminate other human beings who should also have the same moral outrage. too much of our time today is spent on discouragement. everybody is an individual first and that individual is solely responsible for their actions. we should not be outraged because of the race of the person, the fact that these individuals died in a very gruesome and brutal way for no reason at all, because what happens is when that individual by, it takes away some of our humanity.

it is just a matter of time before it becomes us. when you can just reduce it to race, reduce it to gender, reduce it to sexual preference, it is all about humanity. you look at me and you look at the hue of my skin, people who know me know that i refuse to rent space to the idea that i am a black guy. i am a human being, i'm an american, what you have to do is get to know me. let us get to know each other. we are individuals because you ask yourself, why is it that 80% to 90% of law enforcement officers do not commit these crimes? it is because they understand responsibility, they understand accountability, they know how to deescalate the situation. we need to start looking at people as individuals not because of the color of their

skin, they are outraged because of what took place. host: you write in your book that there is no real biological feature to race, it is instead a social construct created by men that has been used in all sorts of negative ways, nothing more than labeling right to discriminate the concepts of wealth and power. unfortunately, if it is not raise, it could be poverty, it could be class, it can be socioeconomic background. there are institutions and andorations that take this profit from it. there are leaders who make their names, who make their wealth as a result of this racial division and they want us to believe that we all are the same, that we are bigoted, we are racist, we cannot solve this problem. morning, i was doing a

facebook live and in the background i had a calling card of brock obama -- barack obama and his challenger john mccain. much, whyng asked so would you have barack obama in the background, what is that about? and i said to him, that election represented progress in america. it showed that most americans have moved beyond this issue of race and bigotry. barack obama did not win the white house because he was black, he won because they felt and whate best ideas, obama and john mccain represented to us is that america remains a shining city on the hill. just because someone disagrees with obama and criticizes him has nothing to do with the fact of his race, it has to do with his policies and the positions that he takes. i explained to them, this is a

celebration. think about this. anywhereno other place else where a man like barack obama can rise in a country and become president of the united states, and we don't talk about that progress enough. when i explained this to them, there was this aha moment. they said we are not as racist as they make it seem. everything is not about black and white, just because i have this cardboard cutout of barack obama and john mccain in my background. host: have referenced george blake, they would attribute all that the concept of systematic racism. what is your take on that? guest: i grew up in south carolina which had a huge impact on my life and how i view the world. reconstruction and the civil rights movement, a segregated society that is in my

memory and the collective consciousness of the south. those days of youth with my father, my mother and my nine brothers and my sisters are a continuous blessing that has fueled my life now into this media.square of it is what i said earlier, it not because they were black, it is because no one should be treated this way. no one should lose their humanity, no one should be in their bed and they are awakening to a hail of gunfire by law enforcement. it should not take five or six months for the community to bring justice for the situation, and it is not because of their skin. unfortunately, and i would be a fool to omit this, we cannot ignore that there is a systemic racism that resides in people's

hearts because we look at certain people and you say that person is black. we see a group of black people together, they must be criminal. they must play basketball. and then you look at a group of whites, they must come from the suburbs. they must have rich parents. we make all the stereotypes and we make these judgments. these judgments are fed to us by the mainstream media. still feel that generation of racism and biases to their church which plays out in the classroom and the larger society. for me, my parents, we did not drink from racism and bigotry and discrimination. even though my parents who grew up on segregated farms by the time we were born, we could work for our parents, my parents we mayd that even though want to judge them with a broad brush, i know very good people,

people are not good because they are white, or because they are black, they are good because of their character, their values, what they choose. their hard work, their sacrifice. it has nothing to do with black and white, this has to do with character and having a value system in place to give your children the best shot at becoming contributing citizens to this american melting pot. to make everything about race, everything about gender, we lose the true perspective. rubber, freedom isn't perfect. human thriving isn't perfect. we are not going to ever have perfect law enforcement, we will never have perfect citizens. everything is imperfect. , americawe must admit is still that shining city on the hill.

flaws, lost in all of this is the beauty of america. what you may try to say that we've lost our standing in the world, america is no longer the great plate that it once was, but america still is because we're still a young country, still an experiment and we have made some phenomenal progress and that progress we should always celebrate. host: if you want to talk to our guest armstrong williams, here is how you can do so. (202) 748-8000 for the eastern and central time zones. (202) 748-8001 for the mountain and pacific time zones. if you want to text does, you (202) 748-8003. we will take a brief break at 9:30 for the pro forma of the house. you are talking to armstrong williams. arie starts us off from

florida. caller: i would just like to say that you have a lot of good on what you are saying. host: go ahead, keep going. caller: i'm so sorry. mr. williams, i just was very interested in the last segment with mr. bryant on, you said everything is not about race, it is not about race. but things can become about race, that's the problem. orn things become about race because of the color of your skin, things happen to you, tragic things happen to you or you do something tragic because of your race, and because of your race, then you are being judged. that makes it about race. because i came from a wonderful, big family that didn't teach me racism. i remember all of those things, i was a product of the 60's.

i could not understand all of that hatred and bigotry because it was not introduced to it. when i came into the world and i saw those things, i was appalled. now, it's 2020. we are still having this racist problem. yes, sir, it is mostly directed to people of color. i respect you very much, but it is obvious that it is directed more to people of color. host: thank you very much. mr. williams, go ahead. that: my father taught us you cannot group people together. he wanted us to have a different experience than the ones that he and his forefathers had. from your perspective, and i'm going to challenge you hear, and thank you so much for what you had to say, what you say is true, i would not argue with that, because that is your

perspective, that is what you have experienced. but dependent on where you are in america and it depends on what your exposures are, your exposures can be quite different, yes, there is no if someone decides to make a judgment about you because of your race like with a law enforcement officer or somebody in the grocery store or told,ing they have been yes, they have the power to impact your life, but they are not the only ones to have that power. black and asian and hispanic and anybody else in a position of power can also make the same judgment about somebody else based on their own stereotypes. this is why i said to you that your experience, you can't argue with. i was in connecticut over the

weekend, i was reminded that during my days at the department we had a department to integrate. obviously, that was clearly about race. it is so ignorant. but the issue is you cannot group everybody the same. let's just say that you have a situation where you've heard that your daughter had been raped by someone who happens to be white. would it be fair that the next day you run into somebody white, you assume they all have that capability? that person to be the most empathetic. skin, bute of their because they may have had an experience with their own daughter. what i'm saying to you, even though you have that hurt, you have that pain, you cannot take that pain and make a decision that every group is the same, because it breaks my heart when

people use headlines from the media that make blacks out to be involved with drugs and the criminals, and black people are so much more than that. they are in corporate america, medicine, parents raising kids do well. they are better in their communities. no group of people should be grouped together. my point is, we've got to get back to individuals and personal spots ability, accountability. just like not all people are whatts, this is institutions have conditioned us for. if we get back to judging the individual, making an individual accountable, i think we move toward progress. , evenn the justice system

law enforcement in the courtroom and the prosecutors cannot protect people because of their past or because they had a relationship with their family. justice must be blind. it doesn't matter to me who has committed a crime. whatever the law is on the books, know should have a pass for crime. justice must be blind. that wetiful thing respect about nature is that it treats everybody the same, nobody gets a pass. mankind must strive to become like that. when people begin to see the fairness when everybody is treated same and there is the possibility for equality for all, god makes us all equal. we make unequal decisions and audio choices, but let that be individual. don't allow the law and the courts and the institutions to be part of that. legislate cannot

that, that is a journey we must do ourselves. do isrdest work that i working on myself 24 hours a day. that is what people refuse to do. i find that when i work on myself 24 hours a day, the world automatically improves around me. host: richard from new mexico, hello. of all, i want to say something here. you must be a democrat eventually because you are confused. all these crimes and all these corruptions happen in democratic states. the leaders are democrats. first of all, you have to deal with your own people. folks back in the day were republicans. how can you talk the way you do and consider yourself a

democrat, but republicans set the slaves free. all the republicans of the civil rights movement. area tubman was a republican. that are people here democrats, they are confused. you've got it backwards, man. host: we will let our guest respond. guest: i just think that he is misunderstanding what i'm trying to communicate this morning. i am a third-generation republican. may bring up the fact that a lot of these violent protests and the chaos that is taking place are in states for you have strong democratic seeership, you must also there are a lot of states where you have democratic mayors, governors, and law enforcement were this is not taking place.

i don't think this is happening because the mayor or the governor happens to be a democrat, i just think that the leaders believe that somehow or another, they can engage these protesters, these rioters, these looters and come to some kind of reason. small towns have no idea what they are protesting and why they want to bring down certain areas of america. my point is they are not doing it because they are democrats, look at what happened to the mayor of portland. now they want to burn his house down. you can never reason with people who take socialism over capitalism, who despise the american way of life, they want basic things for free, they cannot even respect the farmers and their ethics and the sacrifices for us to be where we are now. so what they do in their rebellious way, a protest in a way where they feel they should burn down businesses and obvious

that we cannot allow that to go on. what these mayors and governors have your realizes you cannot reason with this and you have got to enforce the law. law enforcement is very important. this craziness about defunding the police, can you imagine, the police are the pillars of our communities. they are the ones that keep law and order, this is exactly what the people who call themselves antifa and have no interest in the progress of america, all they want is chaos. i would say they are a fraction of the protesters. most of these protesters want to see america prosper. they want to see justice and equality for all. you always have people who come in and step in to take what is good and corrupt it. beingsly these people are brainwashed, you got to follow the money trail. obviously, their intentions are no good. becausenot going to say

the state has caved into this violence and succumbed to these protesters that is because they are democrats. he is just a lack of leadership, a lack of character and a lack of understanding that no one respects weak leadership. lawve got to allow enforcement to do their jobs and if they break the law, we must punish them. host: laurel, maryland, good morning. caller: mr. williams, your last comments i must say, you have gained my respect because the previous speaker really did not. i'm hearing a lot of passion and racial competency, and even the energy, we can feel that. at the same time, i'm going to read all these numbers. number of homicides in major cities, philadelphia, 237. 222. baltimore. what i'm getting here is exactly what you just reference.

black lives matter, cool, kudos. but when there is black on black crime, where is black lives matter? where is the protesting? where are the black people up in arms when our sons kill our o ther sons? black on black crime. i really do appreciate the last comments which you just made, and i think we all need to focus on it. it is not just when police officers shoot black males in the back, it is also when our own son shoot our own son in the back. please, please, pay attention to that. let's stay focused on i think the real problem, it is just a violence in general. host: we will leave it there and let our guest respond. guest: i actually think he is spot on. all lives should matter.

when you talk about black lives matter, americans are in this together. whether you want to respect it or not, the bottom line is you cannot escape whatever befalls america befalls you. we have to honor and protect all lives, all circumstances. that is the human experiment, that is the moral society that we must engage ourselves in. say because somebody is white they cannot understand a young black kid dying for no reason in chicago and continue to die. i may have never given birth to a child because i'm a man, but i can certainly from talking to women and experiencing with them , i can certainly get a feel for the compassion and understanding of the labor that person endured. i don't necessarily have to lose a child or be the victim of .hese movements

i have lived, i have read, i have seen and experienced so many things. we don't feel because we are black, we don't cry because we are black, we don't get angry and upset because we are black or white. it is because we are human beings. we can only feel it, we cannot see it. the caller is right. until we begin to see that, we all must be a part of this. it doesn't matter about the race , a piece of humanity is stripped away and destroyed when someone dies for no reason at all and it is just a matter of time before the story in the narrative become us and we will have waited too long. we cannot escape this, it is going to take everybody to resolve this if we want to move forward and make progress. host: just a few minutes before we have to take a cause.

ahead and jump right in with your question or comment. caller: hi, mr. williams. people sometimes use destruction a property as a -- poverty as proxy for race because people of often those in poverty. how does that institution fit into your ideas? important, weo talk about the american dream. i'm going to target something that might shock you. i have never experienced racism. i have never been impacted by it, it has never marginalized me. it has never been a part of my experience. i can never say that i've lost an opportunity because of my race, i know some will say this guy is crazy, but they assume that because i'm black that i

cannot experience racism is racism in and of itself. and because somebody is white, that they cannot experience racism is crazy. i make this point because one of the things that my parents taught me, you can have all the progress in civil rights in the world, but you have got to create wealth. people must believe that they have an opportunity at the american dream. that people can create wealth, create opportunities, give their children a better education, give them a better life, have better choices of where they live. people find themselves more happier and more in congruency in the nation that we live. programs, while it was a noble idea and well-meaning, what it did, it created an absolute state of real self-esteem and

self-worth. it is a horrible assumption to believe that for people want you to give them something -- poor people want you to given something. people want to work, they want to earn their way of life. when their children get up in the morning, they want to see their parents getting ready to go to work and when they come back home they want to know that their parents have worked hard and are not just sitting on some couch being lazy going to the mailbox every two weeks to get a check out of that box. there is a very small percentage of people in this country who to that and give in mindset. until you create opportunity, that is the next revolution for me in america. when you give people the opportunity to free the american dream they are more peaceful, they are more giving, and they are more progressive and moving this country forward. and there is nothing wrong with creating wealth. wealth has created many institutions in this world and especially what it does in the philosophy, mentoring,

and powering so many engines of study. when people realize they can have a part of the american dream instead of watching tv and peopleg celebrities, must believe they must have it for themselves. this is why the immigrant song is so important. people break the next, lose their lives and change their lives just to get to america. why? they believe that where they are coming from, they can realize the american dream, and guess what?in five or six years , their vision of america becomes true. basing the immigrant song of the better life for their families and generations to come. mr. armstrong williams, the author of the book "what black and white america must do now: a prescription that moves beyond race." will take a short pause for the house, but we will continue on with our conversation with

armstrong williams after the house gavels in events arefar as concerned, make sure you stay -- the president expected to go to north carolina and florida today. our conversation continues with armstrong williams after the house gavels out.