january? stay informed and all of the congressional races leading up to election day, with c-span's campaign 2020 coverage. watch the candidates debate and election results on c-span. watch online at c-span.org or listen on the free c-span radio app. c-span, your unfiltered view of politics. evening, candidates for south carolina's first congressional district, joe cunningham debates challenger nancy mase. a debate for, montana's u.s. senate seat. the incumbent is being challenged by the state governor watch live coverage on c-span, online at c-span.org, or listen with the free c-span radio app.

we are back with rick wilson, the cofounder of the anti-trump group the lincoln project. he is here to discuss with us why his group opposes preston trumps reelection. p'spresident trum reelection. how are you doing? guest: i am good. host: remind us of the purpose of the lincoln project and for the viewers who want to know, where do you get your funding? guest: are funding comes from the national grassroots with over 500,000 donors. we have a few major donors trade almost all of our fundraising as come through small dollar donations and people who want a voice that is able to attack donald trump and able to go after his campaign in a way that many others cannot. we are a group of former republicans and folks who were driven out of the donald trump iteration of the republican party for a host of reasons.

primarily because he has conservative principles. he is governing as more of an authoritative statist. we look at this election as a threat to the future of this country great it was our moral and political obligation to do something about it. host: you described yourself as a former republican strategist. does that also mean you are a former republican? do you still consider yourself to be part of the republican party? guest: i am a nonparty affiliate in the state of florida. i wanted to vote against trump twice. i cannot be part of a party right now that represents the lavish corruption, the over cruelty and the inherent statism and the other characteristics that donald trump has transformed what was once a party of ideas and ideals into. onceepublican party

involved a whole cluster of principles, individual liberty, the rule of law, adhering to the constitution. none of those things are central to trumpism. all of those things -- the rule of law is a joke to trump. the constitution is a vague guideline to trump. the idea that constitutional liberty is a limit on executive power are immaculate to trump. he believes in the expansive power of the state and government. the old-school conservatism i grew up with was not that. aboutwhat needs to change the republican party? or is your argument just with president trump or is it with the entire republican party right now? if the republican party in anything except donald trump, we could have a conversation. look at the convention. it is not a platform anymore, it

is are you loyal to donald trump? that is the definition of the republican party. there is no philosophical underpinning to the party at all. look at any member of the party. any single person in the elected office today, if they said i believe in x and donald trump said i believe in y, x is stupid, they would abandon x in a millisecond. look at ted cruz, marco rubio. all of these people who were so rigidly inherent to the constitution, every time donald trump chapels over it, it is not how dare you sir, stop. it is yes, may i have some more. ae party itself has taken poison pill with donald trump. they got a sugar high with the camping season of 2016, ever since then the party has been in rapid decline across the board. it has shrunken.

over 700 seats have been lost in various levels from congress down. there is great electoral peril this year. there is philosophical and political peril. it does not end. everything trump touches dies. i mentioned it facetiously. now it has taken on a grim and horrible truth. host: being against president trump does not automatically mean that you are for joe biden. does your group support joe biden's candidacy for president? guest: yes. we have endorsed joe biden. i support joe biden and will vote for joe biden. i will tell you why. it is not because i have to agree with every single one of his political philosophies or policy proposals. not at all. it is because it is the difference between a good man and a bad man. it is between the choice of a man who will manage covid and one will mismanage covid. one who has an adherence to

american rinse. someone who has adherence to his own greed. i am voting for joe biden. there particular areas where you disagree with joe biden, even though you said that you know there are areas where you do not agree with him. are there any particular areas about his platform that concerns you as a former republican? guest: here is the thing that people mistake about what will happen when joe biden becomes president. i think there will be some massive -- they think there will be some massive ideological shifts. they are wrong. in the center. the first two or three or four years of joe biden's term will not involve a green yield deal -- green new deal or something else, they will undo the damage that donald trump has done to this country. we have to get the pandemic under control and face it as a nation.

that will require the vast majority of his leadership in the future. donald trump has proven to us that he cannot succeed in managing this pandemic. he has proven he does not care. he will lie. he will deceive. he will delay. he will give deals to his friends and his supporters. this is not a solution for someone who -- something that has killed 200,000 americans. whatever joe biden's policies end up being, i suspect they will be a lot more in the broad tradition of american governance than donald trump's wild excesses. host: let's get some of the viewers involved in the conversation. we will open up special lines for the segment. our first line will be for republicans, who oppose president trump. if you are a republican who opposes president trump, you want to hear from you at (202) 748-8000. if you are a republican supporting president trump, once again, republicans who support president trump, your line will

be (202) 748-8001. everyone else, we want to hear from you as well. your number will be (202) 748-8002. atp in mind, you can text us (202) 748-8003. we are always reading on social media on twitter, at c-span wj and on facebook at facebook.com/c-span. rick, one of the big conversations during the campaign cycle has been the lincoln project commercials, where they show up -- whether they show up online or in emails or on television. can you tell us how much you campaignpend on advertisement in this election cycle? about 90%have devoted of our resources, maybe a little higher to voter contact. whether it is digital broadcast or other outreach. you will see in the closing 30 days of this campaign, a fairly massive investment in a number

of markets both in the presidential site and the senate side. while we do not give out day-to-day tallies, you could probably expect to see $30 million of spending in the next few weeks. host: rick, this is a question that comes up often. if joe biden wins the presidential election, will you go back to being a republican or have you made a permanent break from the republican party? guest: that is so far in the future right now. there is no republican party to speak of right now, there is the donald trump party. i think that there needs to be a party that focuses on free markets and fair trade, but i do not think that the current republican will shake off trumpism very quickly. it will have to learn lessons about the political costs of abandoning every principle you claim to believe in and moving into this era where you are a

personality cult rather than a political party. host: one day i have not asked is about the "new york times" story that says that president trump has paid $750 in taxes in 2016 and 2017, after he became president. what is your opinion on that story? guest: how is anyone surprised? i wrote in my first book a recollection of a conversation i had in 2015 with a new york billionaire, and he leaned back in his chair, and he goes, he will not spend his own money. he is not a billionaire, he is a clown living on credit. that was a great story because it was revelatory about what people actually knew about donald trump. the fact he has been involved in a multiyear scheme to maximize deductions for things like $70,000 worth of hair cuts

should not surprise no one. he does not believe the law applies to him. and he has built a gigantic scheme, i will not say a fraud, because i am not an attorney. i do not know if that is the correct term here, but he has built a tax avoidance scheme that if any other candidate was doing it, he would be attacking them with hammer and tongs. host: we haven't yet talked about his current supreme court barrett, whoconey will be going to capitol hill this week to start meeting with republican senator's. how does the president making this nomination so close to election day affect the election? guest: i think it will affect ie election in a big way and think it will be bad for cory gardner, susan collins, and probably dan sullivan and alaska, all more or less

pro-choice states, except for south carolina, a different chemistry there, but arizona, aine, it has m turned the election in those states to a single or issue. it speaks to the care of these republicans, who say they are independents, but are not. i think that the nomination will lead to a scramble in the senate. i think it blew up one of the plans they had to turn the fall into their -- where ron johnson was going to have a ukraine palouse a to attack john byron -- palooza to attack joe biden. i think mitch mcconnell will pay a price for this. he may lose his majority because of this. at the lincoln project, the garwin rule, established by the republicans, should have been applied here, and the nomination should have been made by the person who wins the election.

at that point, we would've had a different chemistry in the country, one way or another. this race will fundamentally be a referendum on donald trump, not on his nominee. from let's start with kim tennessee. good morning. caller: can you hear me? host: we can, go ahead. -- was afirst of all, non-politician because our system does know longer represent we the people, it represents the rich. we have gotten distracted with the republicans and democrats again. doesn't anybody know how fast donald trump does anything? artist,n, like a con gone by the time the guy realizes he has been cheated. are tryingn people

to get more. and the programs we think protect us in government, like the eta, fta, medicare, fema, they are talking about how expensive it is. they are fighting it. white-collar criminals do not go get prosecuted and go to prison like we do, when we are just trying to feed her families. in prisons where cca is making a profit off of keeping us there. and criminals lose the right to have hardear arms, time getting employment and housing, and so on. people are distracted by the little tax cut, the minimum wage has not gone up. andknow, he is even went in cleared out the projects of people that, you know, our foreign, the dogs and murderers -- ok, those of the people that

help our economy. i am so mad. i'm so mad. host: go ahead and respond. guest: i think a lot of americans ha elected donald trumpve -- lot of americans elected donald trump because they thought he would be this un-corruptible, wealthy guy. he is ultimately corruptible and corrupted. i think when we are done with this president, one thing that can happen, and once joe biden gets daylight on covid, we need to do ethics reform. we need to do a reform of civil service, a reform of the voting rights act. these are things we can look at on how to empower the country again that are not ideologically driven, but rather are meant to strengthen our small democratic systems and small republican governments. host: let's go to randy, calling from williamsburg, virginia. he is a supporter of president

trump. good morning. caller: good morning, america. i have a question, since you say you are a republican against donald trump. that is great for you, not for anybody else. i am glad that you have come to that decision. but just to compare, in virginia, you know our governor, governor northam, a democrat, had every single democrat in the state legislature, local, politician mark warner, tim kaine, tell our governor to resign for six months. and six months after that, a year later, all those same people were taking his campaign donations. so, you and your group are not unlike that. we that support america, we want change. donald trump is the tip of that

spear. you have a great day. aest: the reason you have democratic majority in virginia is because of donald trump, because he is a political poison. the reason there are democrats and majority situations, the virginia legislature right now, donald trump. the governor's office, donald trump. enjoy the illusion you are at the tip of change, but you are at the tip of an influence that is destroying the ability to govern states. you have bought the ticket, you are taking the ride. host: one of your more recent ads targets lindsey graham of south carolina over scotus nominations. i want the viewers to see that, and then you talk about it. [video clip] >> i am a conservative, i want conservatives on the court. n opening comes in the

last year president trump's term, and the primary process is started, we will wait until the next election. i want you to use my words against me. >> you are on the record. >> hold the tape. >> lindsay must go. the lincoln project is responsible for the content of this ad. host: why did you make that ad? guest: to point out that lindsey graham has always been a political parasite and a flip-flopper, somebody who is not consistent in his word. he is not consistent while holding up his oath of office. and he is not honest. lindsey graham has become a target of the lincoln project and other groups for a big reason. in south carolina, a state that the president should be comfortable ahead in, he is only ahead by four or five points. lindsey graham, who should comfortably hold that seat, is behind in some polling. we believe that he is one of the

chief enablers of donald trump, one of the people that has been the most corrosive and destructive to the republican party's ability to hold onto its principles because he has sold out a donald trump. and so, lindsay deserves everything that comes at him. and he deserves the scrutiny that the lincoln project and other groups are bringing on his character and his positions. promiseshear political alike that all the time, so what is the difference between those in the past and people making political promises now? guest: lindsey graham is a particular flavor of hypocrisy. he is a man who not only ran a vicious campaign against donald trump, but prior to that was the wing man of john mccain for decades. -- betrayal of both that and that relationship he had with john mccain, which created his career, and the scope of

lindsey graham's flip-flop on donald trump, in order to become his minion and golf caddie, we think that those things are outliers, even among the normal range of political promises being broken. host: let's go back to the phone lines to talk with jane from north carolina. jane opposes president trump. good morning. caller: good morning. i would like you to comment on -- i feel like the party has left me, i did not leave the party. i remember when we used to stand for things, like, you know, character. we used to criticize liberals for their situational ethics. then i hear over the weekend, the former secretary of state saying donald trump might be crazy, but at least he is one of us. i think that is why i am not a republican anymore, because we do not stand for anything.

anyway, thank you for the work you are doing at the lincoln project. my husband and i are both lincoln voters. you have a good day. guest: i appreciate that. i think that is a point that is often lost on people. we understand how difficult it is to leave the tribal campfire of your party. we understand it. we have all experienced it. all the folks supporting us. it is difficult, but it also lets you sleep at night, it gives you clarity on the fact you will not have to be a part of owning donald trump's criminality, corruption and cruelty and everything else. host: let's go to michael calling from san diego, california. he opposes president trump. good morning. caller: i would like to thank c-span for giving americans a place to vent our opinions. helpingo thank rick for

to form the lincoln project, and everybody else involved with it, because you folks are correct, in my opinion, that this man is the worst president in the history of the u.s., as he would like to say. and it is funny you should mention lindsey graham. i tried to call him and leave a message to say that every time he says that him and john mccain were good friends, he disgraces the memory of john mccain. i hope that you folks can do your job well and get this man out of office. thank you. guest: we are doing our best every day. and we are going to keep swinging until the very last. host: not every republican is with you. guest: no. host: many folks, one person actually wrote this about the lincoln project. i will have you respond to this. "the lincoln project has no future if it's objective is to remake the post trump american party in its image.

american voters did not want what they were selling before donald trump, and they certainly will not want it afterwards. center-right voters are seeking eopulist conservatism and th only purpose of the goodwill be to elected democrats now and in the future. there is a name for people who want to do that, democrats." guest: that is a fallacious and shallow argument that is not unexpected from people in d.c., like henry, who have basically understood that their donations flow to the hands of donald trump. you can kill off any organization by saying, i do not like this group anymore, they are not nice to me. henry has to learn a lesson about politics. he is a policy guide, not a political guy. the flavor we were selling to help elect officeholders over 20 years, if you look at the arc of how the party was successful in

expanding, not contracting. if you become a party of white nationalists grievance, you will contract. the republican party has done exactly that. it has shown in the last several that like a collapsing star, it may be hotter, but it is smaller. you cannot win the base of only the republican party, you cannot win with a party that is driving its political energy for 55-year-old, non-college-educated white men. you have to be better and bigger. the more you abandon the principles of expensive conservativism and optimistic conservatism, because trumpism is a dark interpretation of america, the less you have the ability to sell that vision. i disagree with henry vehemently. what he does not understand is center-right nationalist populism is not conservatism. if you want to be a white,

nationalist populist, go do it, but that is not conservatism, so do not conflate nationalism with conservatism, because they are not the same. host: let's go back to the phone lines. ed is calling from ohio. ed supports president trump. good morning. caller: i do not believe this guy was ever a republican, republican in name only. this is why he is on msnbc all the time. you are a riley type of guy. others sit out on the supreme court, they should be replaced. i am proud of president trump. i was a company commander in the military. i worked my way through college. i worked three jobs. we have three kids. but i am a conservative. name alone, the lincoln party, is a flop. this is why you despise trump. if he does not win this

election, everything will be swept under the mat, from obama to this day, who tried to replace him with a rotten fbi that is all sitting there, they were not even said records over, so everything is a joke. he took on china for the first time in 30 years on fair trade. you shake your head, i am watching you. how are you and supporting the democrats? the green deal, everything, they want to destroy the country. are notou say the riots peaceful, a little bit? nancy pelosi is holding up the ones that need aid because she wants trillions to bail out california for unpaid pensions. host: go ahead and respond. guest: there is no response to that. that is a person that lives in a bubble of facebook and fox. i get it.

it is a phenomenon in politics today. i have to say that i have seen this plenty in this country, and the idea that any of the things he was taking off represents -- ing off represents conservativism, they don't. they represent white ethics grievance populism. so the idea that you will question someone who has worked in republican politics, a republican for 30 years, who worked for several republican presidents, who won office and who worked mightily for others, even when we were going at uphill odds, is an absurdity. i regret that we have entered this phase of the country where the media silo is so on that side, he was running down the set of talking points that are vomited out every day on facebook, and it is sad. it is an epicenter closure. host:

say. brianna, a go to republican who opposes president trump. brian, good morning. caller: thank you so much for coming on, because i just recently joined the lincoln project, as well, and i voted i am veryin 2016, and disappointed. the lincoln project has done a great job of representing the republicans who love this country and our democracy and have a voice. i will be voting for joe biden, because we need somebody in the white house who is going to care about people and not divide us, and my hope and expectation after four years of joe biden, we will then be left with a conservative in office who will be able to bring back those conservative principles that we all care about, and keep up the good work at the lincoln project. that is all i have to say. guest: i appreciate your saying

that. it is a real moment when we hear from a public and voters who have reached their limit on trump, and folks who voted for him in 2016, and the bannon lies pete steve bannon said that. it is over. we are trying to get much more than 3% or 4% of the republicans. we know we will not get the majority, but the folks like you, it is a great honor, and it is great to hear your call. have beenow we talking a lot about president trump, but there are several conservatives, like you said earlier, that are in tough races this fall. where are you falling on people like, once again, lindsey graham, are you getting involved in those senate races? montana, arizona, colorado, i about, north carolina, south carolina, and maine right now.

, north carolina. we may expand the map into mississippi, since mike espey has come up, even in mississippi. we believe there is a simple rule in politics, and that rule is pain is the only teacher, and because pain is the only teacher, the people who enabled donald trump and trumpism need to be held to account. we have a set of tools to do that. we are working extensively to do that. while we will not be decisive in all of them, we think we can be decisive in some of them, part of the pool, like north carolina. in others, we have been a major driver like in alaska and south carolina, so we're going to be in this fight, and republicans who enabled donald trump, they have the chance at any second deterrent and say this man is wrong. he does not represent our values and is wrong for the country.

let's go back and talk about lindsey graham and the nomination of amy coney barrett for the supreme court. lindsey graham and the reason why he changed his mind. i will read it to you. lindsey graham says this. after the treatment of justice kavanaugh, i now have a different view of the judicial confirmation process. compare the treatment of clarence thomas, samuel alito, to brett kavanaugh compared ruth bader ginsburg, sonia sotomayor, and elena kagan, it is clear that there is one set andules for a democratic one set of rules for a republican nomination. we should support any nomination by president trump. what do you think? guest: senator graham is donald trump's bis golf partner pete he can give a damn about any nomination whatsoever.

host: we have another question that came from one of our social media followers, and i will put this to you. kasich thath john some issues like abortion are dwarfed by the need to remove donald trump from office? god help us if he does. what is your response to that? guest: the need to remove donald trump from office is driven by a fantastic array of recents. they include his continued mishandling of a virus that has killed 200,000 americans. they include the mishandling of the office of the president and turning it into a swamp of corruption, and nepotism. they include his bowing down to foreign dictators and emulating them on our streets. they include the fact that donald trump is one of the most racially divisive president

since woodrow wilson, and that is saying something. there is a spectrum of reasons and issues, and if you want to look at any single signifier, any single pet issue that you love or hate, to justify donald trump, you are probably already going to vote for donald trump. host: let's go back to our phone lines and talk to michael, calling from stamford, connecticut. michael, good morning. michael: good morning, rick. inm pretty sure it back april, i thought that trump could end up with about 22% of the vote. because of how much you got in the first place. he is obviously not going to win. he got rid of the infectious disease control department right in the beginning, and that is what was going to stop the coronavirus from coming into the country. he ended it. this is the trump virus. it is an orange virus on this country, and it is a horrible

day, and all of the people who want to vote for him, the last guest on, when you talked to her, it is going to be horrible for spouting out all of this cr ap constantly. how does anybody believe what this guy has to say? it is like pt barnum. to sandy ingo youngstown, ohio. caller: he said he is going to n republicansk o

who voted for trump? i mean come you sound more like antifa to me. guest: yes, and people. you got me. you caught me. i am antifa. moving on. host: let's move on to david, who opposes president trump. david. caller: hello, rick. seeing theonor of lincoln project at cooper union this february. so i have a quick question for you. , what isatic elders how a newng about supreme court would act? my democratic elders do not really believe that they would automatically nullify a close or even a clear biden victory? about howur feeling the supreme court would rule? well, look.

i think it would present an enormous set of risks once it got to the court. if it ends up getting to the supreme court in this case, it is going to make 2000 look like a warm-up act. it would be a much more divisive process. i am hopeful that particular who has a view of electoral jurisprudence, from what i can read, would do the right thing, that it is going to be a dangerous moment. it is going to be a dangerous moment, and if trump is going to rely on russia to protect him literally, it is going to be thee and actually destroy supreme court as a national institution. host: let's go to daniel.

caller: i have to say democrat and republican, because if you believe that trump should lose the election and biden should win, whatever you are taking, taking, but stay off the tube. second, i work for the man. i am a retired new york city carpenter. i worked on his jobs. i have never seen anything racist about him. i have met him and his children. the women,most of general contractors who got jobs are women. tougher than you. they would rip you apart. second, lindsey graham has done more for south carolina and the united states than this guy, you, have ever done in your whole life. you say republican for 30 years. i have been a republican for 40 years. ever since jimmy carter lost this country to iran with his bullcrap.

all right? i am not saying i am 100% republican, i do not believe in everything republicans believe in, i believe in something things the democrats believe in, but i believe in the right to life. i believe in the right to work, and i believe donald trump has done more for this country than any other president in history. host: go ahead and respond, rick. guest: you are entitled to your opinion. and you may have met him on a jobsite once or twice, but the arc of donald trump's racial division is quite clear. the things like, those people are coming to your suburbs to destroy them. and both sides in charlottesville, and i could go on and on and on, would speak for themselves. what also speaks for itself is donald trump's views of women have been more than clearly stated by donald trump himself, grab them by the you know what, etc., and the fact he has been accused, credibly, of sexual harassment and improprieties 27

or 28 times and that are not frivolous claims, so i am glad that you have something to believe in, but it is a godless leader. can get as see if we couple more calls in before the end of the segment. barbara is calling from concorde, california. barbara good morning. , caller: mr. wilson, how are you doing, rick? i am sitting here laughing my ass off at these callers for president trump. oh, my god. it is just too much. i would like to see one of your ads, with all of donald trump's stuff being made in china and everywhere else. guest: we may get there. we may get there. donald trump's products, ivanka's products, are largely made in china. so the ironies abound about the whole china hostility that he claims to have. kathy who isalk to

calling from albuquerque, new mexico. kathy, good morning. caller: i wanted to say thank you are doing, everything your group is doing, because we know how donald trump acts, but it is the republicans, the ones that should know better, the sasses, the portmans, they are not doing what they should. it seems like their fidelity is not to the constitution, it is the donald trump, so i wanted to thank you for everything you are doing. guest: i really appreciate you saying that. that is a great honor. you are right, this is the problem with the republican party. they claim to have a set of principles, they claim to swear an oath to the constitution that they will uphold, no matter what. they claim they believe in limited government, personal freedom, and the control of the authority in the state, and they just don't. they believe in trump now. it is a tragedy. but thank you. host: rebecca is calling from youngstown, ohio. she is a supporter of president trump. rebecca good morning. , caller: good morning. i wanted to tell mr. wilson that

i think he is a disgrace to the republican party, not donald trump. he has done more for this country than any other president has done. so i do not know what you are doing to the lincoln project except filling your pocket with money. so thank you. goodbye. guest: donald trump has filled his products with money based on using the federal government as a till. he is the most lavishly corrupt president we have ever had. and, by the way, if you want to talk about things he has done financially for the country, he has racked up $3 trillion of debt in the last six months, a president who is out of control in every way. he is going to go down in history as both the worst president in our nation's history and as the most absurd but thank you. , host: we would like to say thank you to rick wilson for being here. announcer: coming up, coverage from the white house rose garden on c-span. pres.