president. harrisen and a kamala take the oath of office on january 20. 7:00ive coverage begins at a.m. eastern on wednesday, january 20. watch live on c-span, c-span2.org, or listen -- c-span.org, or listen with the free radio app. ♪ ♪ host: good morning and welcome to "washington journal." hill the storm of capitol officer,capitol police -- president trump has threatened to go to other social media sites, but google and apple are threatening to restrict or remove those from their devices without some new control over what is being said. what do you think about what is

going on with social media and politics? what do you think about twitter banning president trump kurt -- permanently? we will open up our regular lines. democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001. .ndependents, (202) 748-8002 keep in mind, you can always , andus at (202) 748-8003 we are always reading on social media, on twitter at c-span wj, and on facebook at facebook.com/c-span. once again, after the actions that happened in washington at the capital this week, twitter and several other social media platforms have banned president donald trump from their sites. we are going to start with reading you a statement from twitter on why they have banned president trump.

"after a close review of recent tweets from the real donald trump account and the context around him, specifically how they are being received and interpreted on and off twitter, we have permanently suspended the account due to the risk of further incitement of violence." that came from twitter yesterday. president trump has responded to this banning with a statement that came from the white house last night. he said -- "as i've been saying for a long time, twitter has gone further and further in banning free speech, and tonight, twitter employees have coordinated with the democrats and radical left in removing my me, and you,lence the 75 million great patriots who voted for me, twitter may be a private company, but without the government's gift of section 220, they would not exist for long. i predicted this would happen.

we will have a big announcement soon, while we also look at the possibility of building out our own platform in the future. we will not be silenced. twitter is not about free speech. they are about promoting a radical left platform or some of the most vicious people in the world are allowed to speak freely. stay tuned." that is a statement from president trump about him being banned permanently on twitter based on what happened in washington, d.c. in the last week. what do you think about this? let's talk to vincent calling from brooklyn, new york, on the democratic line. caller: good morning. god bless. brooklyn, my message is very simple. black voices for black lives. black folks and the descendents of the kidnapped black africans

should not get involved in white on white crime happening in the capital. loyal americant citizens in the history of america, free speech is a mainstay in any debt and any impediment-- and any is un-american. it should be done away with. host: joe is calling from suffolk, new jersey, on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning, how are you doing? host: just fine. caller: i want to talk about this, independent and all this other stuff that is going on between republicans and democrats. they are only fighting among themselves. they are causing more trouble than anything in those are the ones that is doing all the trouble. it ain't the people. it is them. they are fighting among

themselves and think they can do anything they want, democrats and republicans. thing is going to get done. even when this other guy comes in, he is just going to be a puppet for the democrats. he ate going to have his ideas because he ain't got any -- he ain't going to have his ideas because he ain't got any. i don't know what you will do for the next four years. as far as them rating the capital and everything, the other ones did it too. host: which other ones? the last time that happened was with the british army in the war of 1812. which other ones? caller: no, i'm talking about the democrats what they did all summer long. all they did was right. host: woe. -- whoa. no one broke into the capital until wednesday. caller: they burned down the church, set it on fire. host: there was not a single church burned down. i know you are not trying to

talk about washington because there was not a single church earned down. -- burned down. caller: it is wrong, either way, the democrats and republicans are wrong. from donald is calling riverside, california, on the republican line. caller: thank you, "washington journal." thank you for taking my call. i would like to remind everybody that twitter band , not trump -- that twitter banned the united states of america and not trump. that means our security has been compromised. host: justin, marietta, ohio, the democrats line. caller: good morning. thanks to c-span. just tired of the false equivalency that people are drawing between the black lives matter movement and what happened at the capital. thear as the twitter and

facebook goes, this stuff has been going on for four years. it should not have taken something like what happened at the capital for these platforms to have done away with trump. thank you. host: let's talk to kevin calling from windsor, connecticut, on the independent lines. good morning. caller: good morning. i am not too much on twitter and facebook, but i think that news has to be rated now, like movies are, pg and r, f for fax, and -- facts, and for news, because this got out of control. the republican party have a big party and like fox news, i remember the first republican convention where they eject dan rather from the convention because they did not like the way he was reporting it, but something has to be done with

the media. host: let's look a little bit out a story that was in today's "wall street journal," it is not just twitter that has taken action against president trump and his accounts. it has also been other media platforms. let's look at what it says -- " facebook inc. announced a temporary suspension of mr. trump after the riot, said it would extend that action indefinitely and at least through the end of mr. trump's term. late friday, alphabet inc.'s store suspended from its parlor, which trump supporters have flocked to, saying the service violated its policies. apple inc. threatened to do the same. twitter initially suspended mr. trump from posting on a temporary basis, saying his suites violated the policies -- tweets violated policies. he was allowed to resume posting

on thursday and many critics of the president called for them to take more lasting action. just twitter that has taken action against the president. it is companies like facebook and google trying to take some kind of control over other social media accounts that operate on their platform. we want to know what you think about this. let's go back to our phones and talk to john calling from salem, oregon, on the republican line. good morning. caller: it is kind of interesting to me that antifa and blm did massive amounts of destroying property and rioting for the last eight or nine months, and the democrats don't seem to give a shit, that's all fine and dandy -- host: carol is calling for madison, tennessee, on the democratic line.

good morning. caller: good morning. there's nothing wrong with free speech, but when a sitting -- incitesnsights discord and violence, that has crossed the line. if it was you or me, we would be , and id and put in jail feel like him and his family should be arrested and put in jail. that is only the right thing to do. countrynd pray that our can get through this and come together. if not, i don't know what the sader is, but it is pretty state that we are in. thank you very much, and have a blessed day. host: dennis is calling from angola, indiana, on the

republican lines. caller: good morning. i may refer to your last caller, if he thinks trump and his family should be put in jail, then obama should be put in jail for all the incitement of violence against police. twitter and facebook and all the social media krapp, they are a bunch of communists that should be put out of business or assets seized and gave to the american people. host: are you advocating the government takeover of a private company? caller: no, i am advocating the government take them, shut them down, sell off their assets, and give the money to the american people. these people are ridiculous. zuckerberg is an anti-semi idiot. host: that really sounds like socialism or communism if you are advocating the takeover of a private company and their assets being given to the american people. i am sure that is not what you mean, right? caller: no, that's not what i mean. i mean, they need to be shut

down, put out of business, and their owners need to go to prison for violating the constitution of the united states of america. callingt's go to carl, from rockland, maine, on the democratic line. good morning. caller: good morning, sir. i am a retired veteran and i watched president trump and giuliani, he told them to get wild. he said the election is being stolen. he incited it. i have several friends i'm arguing with because they watch fox news all day long, and fox news, even though there is freedom of speech, they should be charged. i don't know why nobody is showing the picture. i saw one of the capitol police stand there, a heavyset guy, and he had his cell phone up taking a selfie with the people that

were breaking into the capital. and if i saw that on television the other day, why hasn't that been shown before? and my final point was, when the black people came with white supporters to the same building, show the picture -- show the two pictures together on tv. show what guards they had, what protection, what was against them, but show the front of the building when we knew the vice president was in there and nancy pelosi. so i say, when we have elections in this country, that we need to get a democratic pole and a republican -- poll and a republican poll to sit down. when news agencies breed hate and violence in our country every day, then just like trump's account has been stopped, then these news agencies should be verified.

that's what's wrong with this country. callingt's go to deb from houston, texas, on the independent line. caller: good morning. thank you so much, and thank you for keeping everything as straight as you can, and calling things out to people not rudely, but when they are not correct. but wencerned because are looking at here, like you said, hadn't been done since 1812. i think we are a little ahead of what we are talking about with banning trump from twitter. we were told now that corporations are people. people are held responsible, and i think these places are banning trump now because they are also, they know at some point it will come down to an added culpability. this is just a liability thing that all businesses do. they can refuse service because they are business. to that end, i would like to remind people that also, when we

started with trump, the young man made a painting about black cops hurting people, and representative duncan took it down, and emanuel cleaver, they argued over it. then we saw all the race riots. these things have been building and we are all personally responsible, but my last point about c-span, because we are home on lock in texas and my millennial kids are here, they have had a world eye-opening with c-span. we were able to get it on our food stamp card and were never's -- never exposed to it. i think because the cable companies pay for it and everybody has a device in their hand, even if they are poor, and can get parler and twitter, but i feel like people can learn. you should have 24 hour call ins right now. you: i want to warn all of that we want to bring some video

to you from what happened inside the capital. this is a portion of the video that was obtained by "the washington post," leading up to the fatal shooting by police of trump supporter and therefore supporter shealy babbitt as they stormed u.s. capitol. this video does contain graphic content. [video clip] [yelling]

>> there leaving. -- they are leaving. they are leaving. we want to go inside. [yelling] >> i'm not going to go home. i'm recording and there are so many people. they are going to push their way up here. i seen people out there get hurt. i don't want to see you get hurt.

make a path. the whole country where? i want you to go home! [indistinguishable yelling] gun! he has a gun! host: again, that is video obtained by "the washington post " of the events leading up to the shooting of a u.s. veteran at the u.s. capitol. let's go to some of our social media followers and see what they think about twitter banning president trump permanently from its social media platforms. a post from facebook says --

this is a private company free to set their own rules. first amendment protects against government censorship. here is a text that comes in that says -- trump should have been banned month ago when he started the false claims of a fixed election and violence if you lost. the supreme court ruled freedom of speech ends when you incite violence, and that speech which trump did on wednesday with his supporters. here's a tweet that says -- we don't need online training grounds for racist are -- and our guests. ban theedia is right to person inciting violence against our government. a facebook post says -- we never should have been allowed -- he never should have been allowed you social media as a platform to address the public, especially after he introduced the idea that we cannot trust journalists. he has a con man who played his con man who played his contee people on social media, conidents -- his con to

people on social media. another says -- i like it. i think he will open up a platform that allows free speech. a post says -- what are they all afraid of? let's take a few calls, david calling from ashland, mississippi, on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. i would just like to send a message to georgia and missouri. i would like to thank your jeff are giving us a turn -- a chance to turn this around, and i would like to ask missouri, do they think claire mccaskill would have pulled the stunt that josh hawley pulled? from let's talk to kyle clearwater, florida, democratic line. good morning. caller: good morning. i prefer not to talk about trump. i think we know how he has propagated lies to leverage grievances of his supporters and use it as a weapon, but what i'm

concerned about is how "conservative media" is seen as an attack on conservative voices, silencing their social media, telling them they don't have a voice and encouraging this revolution to fight for your freedom. trump will shut down -- was shut down because he led a coup to overtake the government that killed many people, and could've led to the assassination of tens of lawmakers, including pence and pelosi. i don't think people are getting that. listening to the echo chamber of fox and newsmax, they are really camping this up in a dramatic way. i am just really -- camping this up in a dramatic way. i am just really concerned with how josh hawley and ted cruz amped this up and are trying to absolving themselves, saying we had a right to challenge the election results. i'm concerned. san, mike is calling from

california, on the republican line. good morning. caller: i'm just calling because i think a lot of this social media censoring of the president, anybody else, is done because of congress. congress are too old. we need to have term limits. we just let the internet go rampant. there is nobody in congress that knows high tech have to deal with them, so all these laws and things going on, they are just too wide open. and then when somebody comes in like russia and hack into something, they want to blame the president and other people, but congress needed to do something. they need to be creative, come in and put some safety measures up for everybody. host: what type of measures do you think congress should take on? caller: i don't have the answer. i just think it should've been done a little more creatively.

i am not saying they should censor things or restrict things, but to have it wide open and have it happen where the tech companies are censoring other people, it is just too much. if you think about it, how can they censor one person and not censor another one, and have congress sit there and say, it's not our fault? i think term limits are needed for congress, honestly. we should get term limits. the newer people that come in, that know what they are doing, that have high technology. these older people have been there too long. host: graham calling from your clint, delaware, on the independent line. caller: good morning, america. i have never called c-span or "washington journal" but i have listened for years. i was actually at what i would call the revolt the other day in d.c., as an independent documentary photographer.

i must say, it was an incredible day indeed. it is very emotional to me still, to be there. one thing i want to say right no one bat is that mentions the build up this whole year with coronavirus and the lockdowns. i am an independent businessman and have literally had my legs knocked out from under me. i have a family, little kids on ipads who where face masks, and it has literally destroyed my life. i have talked to a lot of people at this rally like me. i talked to a priest, talked about his congregation can't meet. i talked to other entrepreneurs who had their businesses shut down in texas, oklahoma, all over the country. they say this was a small group of people that did this kind of uprising. whether the third party provocatuer's or not, there is an element of that.

99.9% of those people were good, honest american people that are standing up. host: i can assume you were not part of the lawless group that broke into the u.s., correct? caller: you can assume that correctly. i was not there to do anything like that. i was there with my lens and was documenting, and i got some incredible images from such a historical moment. you see, what we have now is -- it is an insurrection of our liberties from congress, that has been happening over time. and now here we are at a moment where, they are taking down president trump's social media accounts, which is extremely disturbing to me. host: do you agree a private company can allow on its property and on its networks whoever it wants? caller: i do agree with that, 100% actually. but the thing is, there is no mechanism -- there is no accountability to it, like they

go around the first amendment. host: the first amendment does not apply to a private company. caller: we can petition our government if they try to censor us. when will "washington journal" be censored? lincoln, after the end of the civil war, had the wherewithal to explain to people that you don't keep your neck on the people -- the dems just took the senate, house, and the presidency. they have a total lock in of power, and you don't hold the boot on their neck. you have to let them up easily. that is what the reformation was about. host: are you saying one party control of a government is a bad thing? is not what we had at the beginning of the trump presidency, the beginning of the obama presidency? this isn't the first time. caller: i think it's bad, but the democrats have a way of pushing things. the way they passed the health care bill in the middle of the night with no partisan support,

that's a little frustrating. host: robert is calling from riverside, california, on the republican line. robert, good morning. caller: good morning, jesse. i still read book he wrote. it is a great book. everyone should check it out. i want to clarify for the people who don't get it -- when you have a mob and you are the leader of that mob, and you give them a vague instruction to do something, anything, to correct a wrong or whatever it is, and they do it, you are the one at fault. as a leader of the number one superpower in the world and its military for the last four years, he should know that. it just shocks me that people aren't growing. we are just as dumb as we were when herodotus was making up convenient history. line today and kevin sorbo is writing things like these are people who are false

flag and making it up as they go along, no evidence. people need to get to these bottom of these fakes that they are putting out, stuff like that. if you can't believe the news, you can throw everything out, because what can you believe? host: keith is calling from reed city, michigan, on the democratic line. keith, good morning. caller: i am a very conservative man and proud american. 6 of this year, the president attempted to overthrow the government of the united states. part of it is he used twitter. state -- this date will go down in infamy. anyone who can support this, this is indefensible. there is a ceremony, burn your flag, because this is not america and that is not american what happened. host: let's go to harold calling

from lima, ohio, republican line. good morning. caller: good morning, sir. thank you for having me. i would just like to say i feel that the president, even though stuff has happened, that -- host: are you still there? caller: yeah. host: keep going. caller: i would like to say that regards to the president, this and that, he is still the president of the united states. that's what's going on here. up in respects nobody congress, and congress is the one who really controls everything. the people who do so much with this virus and everything, and i'm just saying that god died for all of us. all of our lives matter. it is not know black lives thing, white lives thing. jesus christ died for all of us. host: president-elect joe biden

denounced what he saw as racial disparities in law enforcement in wednesday's capitol hill riots. here's what he had to say. [video clip] >> not only did we see the failure to protect one of the three branches of our government , we also saw a clear failure to carry out equal justice. in the senate, excuse the point of personal privilege. a little over an hour and a half after the chaos started, i got a granddaughter, finnegan biden, a senior in her last semester at the university of pennsylvania. of militarya photo gear, in full military scores of them lining the steps of the lincoln memorial because a protest by black lives matter.

she said, pop, this isn't fair. that if ittell me had been a group of black lives ,atter's protesting yesterday they would have been treated very, very differently than the mob thugs that stormed capital. we all know that's true. and it is unacceptable, totally unacceptable. the american people saw it plain view, and i hope it sensitized down to what we have to do. host: let's see what some of our social media followers are thinking about twitter banning president trump permanently from its social media accounts. here is one post from facebook that says -- treason has consequences. twitter was absolutely within their right to ban him. freedom of speech only applies to government action. twitter is a corporation, business, not an arm of government. here is another tweet -- the

president provokes his bands of worshipers and they responded by invading the capitol building, never should have happened in our country. we are better than that. another says -- i think social media should not be the preferable form of communication for our president or any public servant. it is much too easy to fire off any thought that comes into our heads. we've seen the negative consequences. another text in says -- twitter and trump's divorce were coming soon and divert ridley -- divert -- deservedly so. assignmentat job trump will have in prison? i really can't think of one because he will fail at it. maybe distribute rolls of paper towels, i don't know? another says -- what is a grown man doing on facebook or twitter anyway? immaturity, that's why. we want to know what you think about twitter banning president

trump permanently from its social media accounts. carlos is calling from augusta, georgia, on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning, america. proud to be a georgian this morning. military, freedom speech is a part of this country that you can't get around the .hole world before twitter, before facebook, talk radio used to dominate the , andves with rush limbaugh he declared war on a lot of governmental entities through his talk radio show. rush limbaugh, keep in mind, his -- is worth almost $500 million. how do you create that kind of income over a period of time, just before twitter, just before

facebook? so it is way before that. it was created way before trump got in. preachedk trump, they on those talk radio shows about draining the swamp. well, he did a pretty good job of it. i give him credit. and i'm going to leave it at be a and i'm just proud to great citizen of the state of georgia. that cano senators in probably balance this thing out. is calling from pennsylvania on the democratic line. pronounce the name of your town for me, because i knew i was going to butcher it. caller: it is ligon air, pennsylvania. i have to say it to you and everyone else. the first thing i want to say, i get frustrated when i hear

conservatives or republicans calling c-span and say, you guys are biased, law, blah, blah. if you guys don't like it -- and you guys interview republicans and i don't agree with what is going on -- i change the channel. i am a fern believer -- firm believer. let me stop there. now, everyone needs to do some research. it is called "the brainwashing of my dad." i cannot remember the woman's name who did a documentary. please, every bone -- everyone, watch this. it will enlighten you on the social media thing. fox is not news, it is opinion. we need to get out of that. aree, these people that just like the gentleman that was at the rally, he thinks they are right, blah, blah, blah. i didn't like when al gore lost.

i was angry with florida, but i didn't go storming the capital. i got involved. i backed barack obama, campaigned for him, bernie sanders. those people probably thinking i am nuts for backing him up, but i am sorry. that's how you work with the government. you call with your senator and sometimes you are butting heads for nothing, but it is the civil way to do things. host: steve calling from lubbock , texas, on the republican line. good morning. caller: hey there, sir. good morning. there is a right way and a wrong way to do things, and these folks did it the wrong way. they shouldn't have come up on that capital. probably the wrong way to do it. host: steve, probably the wrong way? did you see the video we just showed? caller: i saw all that. came off of facebook.

intriguesind of people to do the wrong thing as well. they need to get rid of that. host: joe is calling from bedford, maine, on the independent line. caller: thank you for taking my call. my comments are just very simple. twitter is nothing new. i mean, there has always been alternative or whatever you want to call it, press, all the way back to 1776. people need to be responsible for what they do. these people who attacked our capitol building were not there as demonstrators or political, you know, people come up with the political way. these people were trying to kill mike pence. there has been comments, we are going to get them.

, i apologize in advance, but the woman who got killed was climbing through the broken glass to get at senators and congressmen. and kill them. i want to see them get charged to the deepest extent that they can be. host: elaine is calling from olympia, washington, on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. one thing i want to say is i don't know that trump is anymore responsible for what happened as a result of a protest then kamala harris is when she said regarding protests, they are not going to stop before election day in november. they are not going to stop after election day, and they should not. ensued as aot is

result of a protest, i don't know how anybody can be held personalle for the responsibilities that the people, the rioters should take on themselves. it is their fault, not people protesting, go down there and protest. kamala harris believes in protest. most people do, but they don't believe in riots. most people you have a good heart don't think that protests are going to revolve into a riot. i think it think -- is the rioters' fault, not the people who want them to protest, want the protesters. it is the rioters' fault. host: fran is calling from toledo, ohio, on the democratic line. caller: the president told us

there are good people on both sides of the issue of racism and anti-semitism. this is no dog whistle. this is a bold endorsement of mass murder. this is a train leading to the concentration camps. that man needs to be gotten out of office immediately. this woman who just called is ignoring what he said. he is calling for racism and anti-semitism. you should be banned from any private use of it. the new york times" actually has a story about what is happening with president trump, and they have a paragraph i want to point out in their story where mr. trump dried evade the band -- tried to evade the ban using the potus twitter account, which belongs to just sitting u.s. presidents, as well as other accounts to lash out, but all of most -- almost all of

his messages were almost immediately removed by twitter. the company forbids users to try avoiding a suspension with secondary accounts. president trump, after being his realom twitter at donald trump account, attempted to use his potus account and other accounts to continue to tweet. twitter almost immediately removed his tweets from their social media platform. we want to know what you think about twitter banning president trump eminently. let's go -- permanently. kate is calling from lebanon, oregon, republican line. caller: hi. host: go ahead. caller: hi. host: good morning, kate. go ahead. caller: trump did a good job in the white house. host: is that it, kate? caller: yep. calling from sun

city, california, on the independent line. good morning. caller: hello? host: go ahead. caller: hello? host: eloise, you are on. caller: thank you, and thank you for allowing me on. as far as taking trump off twitter, just like a baker can decide they don't want to bake a cake for a gay couple, they can decide they don't want to have trump use their services. now republicans can understand a baker having the right to deny service to gay people, and they will fight, and if you even suggest that they shouldn't, then they are all up in arms. but this, they feel like it is violating this man's freedom of speech. you know, that's one of the problems the republicans have.

long as these people are doing things their way, they can support it. but when they start doing things to -- another way, that's when they can't support it. host: doris is calling from atlanta, georgia, on the democratic line. doris, good morning. caller: good morning. trump announced for the election that he was -- he would not accept losing. he already had in his mind what he wanted to do in case the election did not go his way. he is the president of the united states and as the president of the united states, we can't allow him to incite using twitter, what happened on january 6. we can't allow him to do that again. and all measures should be taken to prevent that. theyr as this woman ali, say she was a veteran.

i am a veteran too, but when she crawled through that window, she deserved what she got. host: richard calling from louisville, kentucky, on the republican line. caller: good morning. yes. i am pretty upset by what happened. thepeople who went into capitol building should not have done that. but i do want to say, i'm so happy that the democrats are now calling for law and order, but here's the kicker. the only reason they're calling for law and order is because they were scared, they were upset, they felt that they was what about -- but the people, the rest of the country? host: richard, what would you say about someone telling you they are trying to overthrow the government of the united states? caller: that's not what

happened. that's not what happened. you know that's not what happened. overthrowing the government, twitter, facebook, google, they are going to overthrow the government and tell you what to do. host: what do you think about the number two, number three, number four person in line of succession for the presidency having to be taken to a safe room because people were breaking into their place of business? caller: i said -- did i just not say i disagreed with them going in there? the only reason they are calling for law and order now, democrats, liberals, nancy pelosi, because her ass was in a sling. host: richard calling from newark, ohio, on the democratic line. caller: good morning, and thank you for taking my call. with respect to twitter barring otherand some of those people who are inciting these

acts, i am all for it. i wish they had taken that action a lot sooner. but as you can tell from the previous man from louisville, you can hear the rage against the democrats in his voice. i mean, this was the most disgraceful thing i've ever seen in my life, that they took over the capitol building, and they were there to do harm. there is no doubt about that. that is indefensible activity. and every american should stand up and condemn that action. so that's all i have to say. host: let's go to some of our social media followers and see what they have to say about what's going on with twitter banning president trump permanently. here is one tweet that says -- trump being banned permanently by twitter, i will give you 9-1

odds his accounts will be reactivated, perhaps as soon as january 21, 2021. another tweet says -- if the actions of those attacking the u.s. capitol are not reflective of an attack on the u.s. and freedom, then what is? another tweet says -- civics 101 in session. the first amendment protects free speech only applying to the government, not private enterprise. twitter is private enterprise. class dismissed. another tweet says -- insurrectionist didn't just come to invade the capital. some were planning to take hostages. zip tie handcuffs, molotov cocktails, pipe bombs, m4. another says -- what happened in d.c. was a coordinated attack on our capital. these are insurgents/rioters, not protesters. bom were protesters who were not allowed to ransack and loot.

closing thek -- stable door after the horse has run off. we would like to thank our callers. next, former senate sergeant at arms and u.s. capitol chili -- capitol police chief terrance gainer will discuss security in the wake of wednesday's attack. roll call reporter chris marquette will discuss the u.s. capitol police response to the attack on the u.s. capitol. we will be right back. ♪ >> american history tv on c-span3 exploring the people and events that tell the american story, every weekend. -- 8:00at 8:00 a.m. eastern -- how colonial history is remembered through historical sites and monuments. at 10:00 eastern on real

america, we look back to past presidential farewell speeches, from president ronald reagan, president jimmy carter, president dwight d. eisenhower, and president lyndon b. johnson. at 6:00 p.m. eastern on american artifacts, we visit the state department's u.s. diplomacy center where more than 1000 artifacts are stored with plans to open a museum on diplomacy underway. eastern, the daughter of gerald and betty ford reflect on the legacy. watch american history tv this weekend on whenever ♪ topk tv on c-span2 has nonfiction books and authors every weekend. this weekend, today at 7:00 p.m.

eastern, journalist cheryl atkinson on her new book "slanted -- how the news media john mackey love -- in his book "conscious leadership." sunday at 9:00 p.m. eastern on afterwords, catherine flowers, founder of the center of rural enterprise and american justice on improving water and sanitary conditions. she is interviewed. watch book tv on c-span2 this weekend. ♪ "washington journal" continues. host: we are back with terrance gainer, who worked as the chief of the u.s. capitol police, and has also served as the senate sergeant in arms. chief gaynor, good morning. guest: good morning, jesse. host: one of the first questions

i have for you is do you think the were sufficiently prepared for what they faced on wednesday? guest: i believe the original plan they were prepared for, and that was a lot of protesters. the violence that developed out of that, and the viciousness of the crowd, they were less prepared for. , you these type of events would expect that the capitol police would have contingency plans for. what type of plans do the capitol police -- did the capitol police have for these type of contingencies when you were there, and what type of plans do you think they have now? guest: jesse, i think since this incident, when putting up the fence, places upstairs are significantly safer. what we don't have yet and there is just a lot of talk, because we haven't seen it, is the extent of the plans.

both the house and senate sergeant at arm's are good men with long careers in law enforcement and handling a lot of events up on the hill, just the way chief sund has been. he was an excellent commander and an excellent chief. we don't know what went awry. was we do know is the crowd very, very large and very, very vicious. in any of the photos you look at, or films, would indicate how they were. when you do planning for these large events, you have people that are very visible and you have civil disturbance units, again depending on the intelligence waiting to be deployed if they are needed. and they were deployed, especially i saw them on the east front of the capital, where those officers fought for well aer up to 90 minutes with

very vicious crowd of protesters who were dressed as if they were the civil disturbance unit, and were using a chemical spray, hairspray, and other things. the officers held out as long as they could, but the crowd just got too large. host: one of the questions that many people who watch this video -- watch these videos but happened on -- that happened on wednesday is, are capitol police armed with lethal and nonlethal weapons for these situations? guest: yes, they are. they have expandable batons. they have cs spray and of course sidearms. i think it is wrong to assume that even as mean and rotten as were,marauders or rioters you don't open fire on them. just heard a lot of conversation about it that it is unfair to

think the officers were put in a position to use deadly force in the building. so when those protesters did rush, especially when you see it coming up the east staircase, those officers were trained and -- trained that it would be inappropriate to open fire. we need to put that aside. host: explain some of the training that day do for officers in those situations. what are officers trained to do in those situations where you have someone who has broken into the u.s. capitol, who is threatening to harm police officers at the very least, and possibly harm the people that the police officers are protecting, what are officers trained to do in those situations? guest: remember, these are good, highly trained federal law enforcement officers. they go to a six-month school, the federal law enforcement training center.

they are fully certified, great law enforcement officers with a lot of experience. the question is compound, so let's take it apart. the places that were violated are areas where they -- where pedestrians or anybody would go. if you have ever been up to the capital, and so many of your viewers have, they wouldn't even be allowed on those steps or landings. so a lot of what law enforcement does across the united states is assume people are going to follow the order of what police officers do. if you are walking down the street and there is a sign that , thethe sidewalk is closed presumption is you are going to go to the sidewalk across the street, not charge through the light barricade that is there. the whole issue we were talking about is once the crowd came through and started charging up those stairs, there were a limited number of officers, and there are photos of the heavily armed officers with long guns.

--re would not have been trained or expected to use deadly force when people are rushing up the stairs. they would form defensive lines as best as they could to push them back down, but they became outnumbered. and the behavior of what was supposed to be, or what the department thought would be butwed but -- a loud peaceful, boisterous crowd, became very vicious. change the dynamics between the capitol police officers and people rushing up the stairs. i am telling you that using deadly force to protect property would not have been appropriate. they were adjusting, trying to get in position, and the department was trying to get more people in position, but the was being rushed from multiple sides. host: let me remind our viewers

that they can take part in this conversation. i am sure a lot of us have questions for terrance gainer. we will open up our regular guy -- regular lines. democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001. .ndependents, (202) 748-8002 you can ois text us at [video clip] (202) 748-8003 and we are always reading on twitter and facebook. -- chief gainer, we just showed some snippets of the video published by "the washington post" of the events that happened inside the capital that led up to the shooting of air force veteran ashli babbitt. have you seen this video, and can you explain to us from the law enforcement perspective,

some of the things that happened , and what those officers must have been thinking? not a lotl, there's that should be said about that now, because it's under investigation by not only the capitol police but the fbi and the federal bureau of investigation. it is under investigation and we don't talk about that. but i can tell you about in general what was going on, without having seen and have all the facts, which is a dangerous thing to do. those protesters were violent and trying to break into an area pretty close to the house chamber. agents officers and inside the last doors that were protecting people protected those in the chamber, and from anybody trying to get in the chamber. it was a very different --

dangerous situation, because the primary responsibility of the capitol police officers and agents is the protection of life. there were members in that chamber. so they were trained and the expectation is that they would not let the chambers be breached. i believe that is what the officers and agents were trying to do. that is very positive out of this, that notwithstanding how terrible this looked, notwithstanding the windows and in,s broken and they got that those officers and agents were able to protect all the members, all the staff, and ultimately get them safely out of there. your viewers should know that neither the house chamber nor the senate chamber was breached by any of those rioters while there was staff or members in there. it is when the appropriate order was given to move to another

police both the capitol in the chamber, and those who came to their assistance, moved the members of the house and senate senate out of their respective chambers to a safe area. that is when you saw the rioters were in the hallways and then out of the chamber. the agents of the united states capital's did what we wanted them to do. they protected the lives of the constitutional officers into the staff as frightening as it was for both members and staff, they got him to safety. andmately what the men women of the capitol police did along with assistance from the metropolitan police department of washington, swept the agent of both people and declared dead

of any devices they may have brought in and they were able to those chambers, get the constitutional officers back in and conduct their business. they ultimately did what we wanted them to do, what america needed them to do. that will spend time as appropriate. certain -- the chief was, i am certain as we follow up, willfully explore what happened. take partviewers well in this conversation in just a second but first question for you chief gainer. there were questions about whether there were calls to the national guard, calls to the metropolitan police department. what is the process and what is

your understanding about why and how it took so long for the capitol police to be reinforced by the national guard? guest: we do not have the data to do that. -- ispectation are data-driven policing to that is how we make decisions. i know because i have worked with these people. by that i mean the capitol police. were doingent they at various moments what needed to be done. there were some reinforcements broaden but -- brought in. that needs to be explored and analyzed and assessed. if there were weekends, whether it was in the interpretation of weaknesses,ence -- whether it was in the interpretation of the

intelligence, we will understand that. even if those people had not forced to resign or forced to leave their offices, they would have been doing that, they should be pardoned on the after action report. host: let's let some of our viewers take part in this conversation. let's start with sarah calling from madison, north carolina on the democratic line. caller: good morning. forve been watching c-span quite a few years and i am considering canceling his twitter account definitely -- it is definitely time because of all the time he spent on twitter he should have been handling covid-19 and all the other times when he should have been doing

his job he was always on twitter . he never did his job hardly within the past year and a half. there is an old saying that only the way kid flee when only no man pursueth. donald trump knows if he ever leaves that white house that someone out there is waiting for him. he is a coward. his son is a coward. host: let's see if i all huntington, west virginia -- if lionel from huntington, west virginia has a question for chief gainer. caller: the man u have got sitting there -- you have got sitting there, we saw capitol thece escorting antifa into

building and then blame somebody else for it. they are waving them in and holding the doors open for them. host: chief gainer, would you like to respond to that? guest: i have not seen those videos or pictures. it is wrong to assume that the officers of the u.s. capitol police were not doing anything other than fighting them off or trying to de-escalate. i believe your assessment of what they were trying to do was incorrect. there is a plethora of picture how hard thoset officers were fighting to protect the building and the chambers and the members into the staff. the staff.and one capitol police officer was killed. there were four deaths in and

around this assault. don't you dare say the capitol police officers were not trying to protect the building. incident, i have talked to officers who were in their and they are crushed -- were in there and they are crushed. theyloved their job and were overcome and not in a position to use deadly force because so many things should have happened in this time -- type of incidents. they fought valiantly. have a little respect for what they were trying to do. host: we send our condolences out to the family of officer sicknick. we understand that any loss-of-life is a tragedy, but in loss of a police officer

the line of duty is a double tragedy. we want to send our condolences to the family of the officer sicknick. let's go back to our phone lines and talk to douglas calling from niceville, florida. caller: good morning. i think you can hear me. in to say first off you can look at this man -- this man is a man of honor and integrity. i understand he is in there to do damage control. my only criticism would be six months of training and we have come to this? this is what they have been trained to do? i would think people with pipe arms smashing in windows, you would open fire. i don't know what their training is but -- how do you let people

a soul white house? the white house? i am ashamed of that woman, ashamed of her. i do not know what to say. host: your response, chief gainer? andt: they are well trained it is not just six months. they are trained when they come back up here. it would have been a different situation had an officer seen a pipe bomb. then they would have used the appropriate deadly force or force likely to cause death. theve said all along and chief of arms have talked about the consequences of how this unfolded, we need to understand how we lost the steps. they accessed the doors and

windows. that needs to be explored. at the doors, and windows as they entered, you are in a terrible situation and breaking in and trespassing on that property was not the moment to begin shooting. it was the need to have additional resources and backup personnel. ultimately members of the metropolitan police department were notified as were other federal law-enforcement agency and they began to respond. it is fair to criticize us. it is fair to ask the question how soon where they notified, how fast did they get there and what would have changed if they had -- if that had occurred? they indicated that they were prepared for the type of

protesters we have scores of times in d.c. and in most major cities. the issue about what should they have known and everybody else -- i expectave to criticism. are sergeant of arms, i would be held responsible as the leaders of those organizations are, but they are good men with good intentions. something went awry and we have to figure that out. it was ugly. it was shameful what the president and his son and giuliani did to egg people on. the people obviously who came up, many were and on his still it is -- on hostilities and harm. we need to unravel why we were not able to have up at her sense

of how and when it was going to how -- a better sense of and when it was going to turn. host: we saw a permanent fence go up around the white house and a temporary fence go up around the capital. you have suggested a permanent fence around the capital. would that have made any difference on wednesday? but i it would have, understand why there has been pushed back. when you say fence people conjure up all sorts of things. we proposed a number of years ago was a fence similar to what you see around the white house that alternates between iron fencing and the beautified it so youwe designed access.ve 24/7

the challenge on the hill that we continue to have is wanting to keep it open and inviting for the people who have every right to come and visit the house of the people, visit members of congress and meet with them inside and outside the capitol . actually provide a great site line and sound line from independence and constitution, first avenue on the west and to avenue on the east or -- where the supreme court and the library of congress is and you had multiple entrances manned by capitol police. but would have access 24/7 they would have to pass through the types of checkpoints he would have to pass through at

the airport. standoffd establish a so you are not trying to fight people at the door. the door could come to with explosive devices. we move them out from the building, but you have complete access to the grounds. that proposal was for senate, staff, committees and it was cashht it was to expensive expensive and it was not the look they wanted for the capitol. visitor center allowed you to entered in a different area. that was a good attempt. a lot of money, a very long process to make an entrance for people who are respectful of the law.

ifis much more difficult, you are going to leave the building accessible from every angle, and there is no way to check those individuals until they attack you. when you have seen the inaugurations, ulc have the fencing can be put up on a -- see how the fencing can be put up on a temporary basis. that is how you screen people, and make sure those with ale intent are screened -- ill intent are screened. can interactnt with them. have done is put temporary fencing up close to but people still have access to the green, grassy

area. that is better than nothing, but it still brings people to close -- too close. callingt's go to nancy from altoona, pennsylvania on the democrats' line. caller: i am totally agreeable that this went way beyond what anyone expected and it is appalling and disgusting. the police acted in the best interest of the situation. you.mend the vision is still have -- division is still happening in this country. we have to know and move forward. president trump was definitely a factor in this, but how many

people in washington could have stopped this and the police -- there they are -- brought in more division that black lives would have been treated differently in this situation than what happened here at the capitol. know what to not do at this point because the radical people causing the trouble are both black and white. host: your response, chief gainer? appreciate what i hear you saying and complementing not me but the leadership and staff that were up there. that is the inference. it would be wonderful and

appropriate if the chief of the could sit here and to do this, but one day they will do that. that is generally not some thing that happens. my desire to be on c-span and try to do that is to shed some go,t on how things normally how they are trained, how generally things are done and tried to differentiate between the work that is normally done and these large, huge, where there are dozens of people into the difference between what we are experiencing now -- and the difference between what we are experiencing now where violent people want to do violent things into they are incited by people who should know -- and they are incited by people who should know better. deny what they did

right. i agree wholeheartedly that we do need to calm the rhetoric down. even those people who are very the thingsr many of ought to participate in calling this down. if people want to have conversations about how law enforcement -- that is a fair conversation but it is difficult to compare what transpired squareago at lafayette into the misconduct of those who directed lafayette square to be emptied and watch went on in this particular -- what went on in this particular incident. it is fair to ask the question andur people, our police

their treatment of people irrespective of the color of of culture, of philosophical difference. police chiefs are trying to figure that out. . know there is a divide i do not believe that is a salient issue in what transpired on that hill. host: let's go to john calling from milford, pennsylvania on the republican line. caller: good morning. i would like to say condolences to anyone who passed away in this right. -- this riot. my question for mr. gaynor is in the police department, are you gainer is the

police department are you telling me that you are allowed to shoot from around a corner? were standinghat guard at the door with their guns drawn while the people were at the door chanting and trying to get in, are you telling me it would have been allowed to open fire like a videogame and shoot these people that did not have guns on them -- i know they do not know that, but are they allowed to shoot these people who are unarmed? if this was done to black people it would have been an uproar. myself, but this white woman was unarmed. i don't think i will get an answer, because i don't inc. you can shoot people coming through a door -- think you can shoot

people coming through a door like a videogame. ducking things when i say it is under investigation. for 44been a policeman years. i hear what you are saying. there are strict rules on when you can shoot and not shoot. one, the picture you're talking about with the officers in the chamber with their runs outpointed towards -- guns pointed towards protesters, they did not shoot. each of those incidents will be investigated. you know based on the style of your question, and viewers should know, there are strict rules on when you can use deadly force. we would need another two rules

rules into thee supreme court cases that guide police officers -- and the supreme court cases that guide police officers, but they did not use deadly force. the deadly force that was used will be investigated. rules determine when you have to protect constitutional leaders or members of congress. decision to use deadly force is based on a lot of factors. host: we would like to thank the former senate sergeant at arms, terrance gainer for being on with us this morning and being gracious enough to take our questions. chief gainer, great to see you again. guest: keep the officer's

family in your thoughts. speak to chris marquette who will join us to discuss the capitol police again and their response to the attack on the u.s. capitol. dr. joshua gordon will be here to discuss the mental health crisis caused by the coronavirus pandemic. we will be right back. ♪ >> there are more than 60 new members of congress, including immigrants andn

former college and professional athletes. watch our conversation with you members this -- with new members this week. watch our conversations with marjorie taylor greene, madison cawthorn, meet new members of the 117th congress at 8:00 p.m. online at c-span.org or listen live on the free c-span radio app. , ms. andrews talks about her book, boomers. >> the one-liner about boomers i did not come up with but i think as brilliant is they are the generation that sold out but would never admit that they sold out. hand ofation on the one idealism and a sense of

themselves as morally noble, noble idealist liberating humanity but on the other hand a great deal love selfishness -- deal of selfishness and mindedness to the ways their liberationist agenda knocks down functioning institutions and left a lot of people worst off. >> helen andrews sunday night on c-span's q and a. watching c-span, your unfiltered view of government. c-span was created by america's cable television companies in 1979. -- are broughte to you by these couple -- these cable companies is a public service. host: we are back with chris marquette who is the ethics and accountability reporter for cq

roll call. he is also one of the few reporters who actually covers the u.s. capitol police is a beat here in washington -- as a beat here in washington. you are one of the few reporters who covers the u.s. capital police as a beat so you will be our expert on this subject. what is their jurisdiction? protectheir role is to congress and their jurisdiction is the capital complex. it extends pretty far out. it encompasses union station up until h street then further down towards southwest and southeast as well. actually in charge of the capitol police? or does the buck stop?

stop whenoes the buck it comes to who is the capitol police chief? who is responsible for what the police are doing? guest: steven sund's is the chief of police until his resignation takes effect. policeers to the capitol board comprised of the senate sergeant at arms, the house sergeant at arms, both of whom have resigned. boardapitol police ultimately responds to congressional leadership. majoritythe senate leader and they house speaker ultimately in charge of the capitol police? explain more about that capitol police board you were talking about. guest: it has the two sergeants

at arms, the architect of the the only remaining member who has not yet resigned on the capitol police board. the capitol police is responsible to congress. they charged with protecting congress -- are charged with protecting congress. host: we have statistics that say the capitol police have 2200 employees and a 1500 million -- $515 million budget. what happens after the massive failure on wednesday? guest: in the summer the house wanted to keep funding for the cup but all police -- capitol

police at the same level it was for fiscal year 2020. ultimately the senate wanted to increase that ended ended up at upcomingion for this 2021 fiscal year. what kind of changes do you think are in store for that capitol police after what everyone would agree was a massive failure on wednesday? guest: there are several congressional investigations that were announced. a democrat from california circulated a letter with a number of colleagues that signed on calling for acting speaker hello c4 an independent outside commission to look out what went wrong. democrat, shernia

is the top person on house administration that has oversight of the capitol police announced her committee would be a fullgating, have review of what happened with the capitol police in conjunction with house and senate leadership , the homeland security committee also announced a joint investigation. the ultimate thing is back in the summer, the appropriations bill proposed several accountability measures for the police including user-friendly arrest data, access to inspector general reports. right now the public is not able to look at any inspector general reports from the capitol police. the capitol police is exempt from the freedom of information act, so they are not subject to

any requests if they do not want to provide an inspector general room port or an officer misconduct report. they do not have to comply with that. those were some of the proposals in the house bills in the summer. it got hacked from the final version by the senate. we could see some accountability measures in that respect. that, we have seen chief sund resign, the capitol police union head come up on a seo -- union head. on thursday he called for the resignation of assistant chiefs chad thomas and uganda pittman. yesterday tim ryan, who is the , he is the chairman of the

house appropriations legislative branch subcommittee and he call for theus's chiefs to resign. that may happen. i have no information so far on when they -- if they plan to that is what, but we can expect to see. me remind our viewers they can take part in this conversation. democrats, you can call (202) 748-8000. --ublicans, (202) 748-8000 (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002. (202) always text at 748-8003.

this, in the midst of all there are still several high-profile events coming up at the next fewn days with a possible impeachment vote coming up in the house. what kind of immediate changes will we see from capitol police? we know that temporary fences up around not only the white house but the capitol. do we expect to see any immediate changes that can be seen publicly by the capitol police? guest: you can expect to see increased security, but outside of that, that is what i know so far. have one of the things we talked about already is the u.s. capitol police chief steven sund said he is going to resign. you said the assistant chiefs has been asked to resign. chief sund is the person still

in charge right now, correct? guest: that is what my hill sources have told me. i have not gotten an answer from the speakers office on that. hillwhat i know from the sources i have talked to, his resignation does not take effect until january 16, so he is technically still in charge. with jerryart calling from tacoma, washington on the democratic line. good morning. caller: first i want to thank you for having me on, letting me speak. i want to congratulate you because i like the way you have been correcting people. there is a certain element on here that goes completely crazy. i know it is a bipartisan conversation but when they go completely nuts, it is nice to

say that's just false. i appreciate that. sometimes wackos come on then to say crazy stuff. you're doing a good job at saying that is false information. i called because of the last police officer who was on here. it looked like he was retired. i do not know if he is active or not, but he was so full of it. dude, we see the videos. everybody in america has seen the videos of police waving them in. ofryone has seen the videos black lives matter coming in. everyone has seen the different treatment. you saying itare is fine to shoot somebody? they are breaking into a federal building. they are assaulting officers. i am a black man.

if i walked into a store too fast they could shoot me and to justify it. at some point you just have to be honest about things. that is the whole problem. the youngng guy -- guy there, i don't have a conversation -- a question for him. will you let them know we have internet? it takes a couple seconds for messages to get around america. when you come on to lie like that, it makes them have no credibility. you ai am going to ask question based on his comment -- one thing we know is that washington dc is one of the most video cities in world, -- video'd cities in

the world. will we ever see video from inside the capital? will we see that, as the media? guest: what do you mean the video that comes from the capital? host: we know there are security cameras throughout the capitol complex. will that video ever be made public? guest: i would have to ask the capitol police. host: let's talk to jean calling from kissimmee, florida. there?re you [inaudible] host: let's go to charles calling from alexandria, virginia on the independent line. the gentleman who called

look, ioment ago -- wanted to ask the chief, it is doubtful to me how he was dressing over what really happened. when i look at the video the other day and when i see those cops trying to defend those doors and how they just passively let their hands down thestepped to the side, video of how police officers , it passively let them in just cannot stop thinking that if that was me as an african-american man, where would i be? i hate to keep talking about that, but i can't help but keep thinking about it because it's so obvious. a few years ago a black woman her child.r with she was driving around in

circles in front of the white house and she got shot. she was lost, i believe. i wish the police chief would say it the way it was. scaling the walls, trying to put trump flags up on the capitol building, y'all. the mayor was weak in her response. where was the national guard? riotersnstrators or the are now gone. hopefully they do not return. ast: chris, can you talk little bit about what your sources are telling you about the coordination between the capitol police, the metropolitan police department and the national guard and what happened there on wednesday? happened -- it is still pretty unclear and i think there is a lot of stuff

that still needs to come out on that to be frank with you. i have not got in a lot of tten a lotom the -- go of answers from the capitol police or committee chairs. normal workinghe relationship between capitol police into the news media that covers them? are they usually more open into they are just closing down or are they usually hard -- and they are just closing down or are they usually hard to get information out of? gett: they are very hard to information out of like basic stuff, how many officers are on the force for a specific year. those kinds of questions will go unanswered. -- you know,es are very sporadic. it is hard to get information from that department. host: you had a piece back in

december saying the capitol for enhancedlans a security for the joint session. capitolow how many police officers are there on a normal day versus on special events? how many capitol police officers are on duty at a normal time? guest: i don't know the answer to that question. any ideawe have whether they are planning or whether they plan to have more people on the ground? capitol see a lot more police around the capital looking out on the streets right now. said just have they whether they will increase the number of capitol police -- have they said whether they will increase the number of capitol police on the grounds permanently? guest: these are good questions.

it goes back to what we were talking about earlier -- it is difficult to get information from the police. the public tofor get a response from chief sund. it is a secretive department. are not in the habit of sharing information quickly. there is a lot of questions to be answered. they have not answered a lot of those questions. said one of the things you earlier was there will be congressional hearings. some members of congress are talking about launching investigations into the congressional breach. what will those investigations look like? will there be hearings? will they be public? guest: we will be seeing

hearings with a lot of questions. this is a very fluid situation and a lot of that information has yet to come out.. host: let's go back to our phone lines. norwalk, california on the democratic line. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i feel the most important thing is for congress to take an action that will eliminate president trump's chances of running again for political office in the future. if he cannot run again, his base will start to shrink. fringengerous, radical insurgent element will likely seek out another political leader to latch onto. we now have a couple cueing on onbers in congress -- cueing anon members in congress.

this radical element will be minimized to some degree. i feel they are even more dangerous than trump is. the -- is the only tool available to keep trump from running for punk office, i guess that is what we will have to do. during the first impeachment proceeding in 2019, i called in and talked with greta and make ad that congress rule change for a secret ballot ring the senatorial impeachment -- during the senatorial impeachment vote. i thought that would free republicans to vote their conscience without fear of being on the receiving end of a poisonous, career ending trump tweet.

the never wanted trump in first place so this would be the chance to be rid of him. host: chris, we talked earlier about the capitol police board. that board includes like you said the capitol police chief who has resigned. the sergeant at arms has also resigned. what is the ordination or do we know what the coordination was between the house and senate sergeants at arms into the capitol police? what is there -- and the capitol ?olice dac what is their relationship? there is only one member left

and that is the architect of the capitol. who is in charge after the sergeant at arms have resigned? guest: there is an acting replacement sergeant at arms in the senate that mitch mcconnell this week. that is where that stands. host: let's go back to our phone lines and talked to michelle calling from upper marlboro, maryland. caller: good morning jesse and chris. i have three points and i will make them very quickly. policet goes out to the officer who lost his life. when any life is lost, it is a tragedy. goes out to the woman who lost her life and the others who were injured because i do

feel they were a victim of disinformation, even a lack of knowledge of history. number two, i want to say this insurrection has the problem that we have in this country -- we do not recognize that the face of terrorism is not just black or brown, but it is white. visit --e chief's hesitation to call it what it was, there was not a full throated resistance to this threat because they were white people. because they were white they thought they were not going to have this level of violence. white people have been terrorists from slavery to colonialism around the world to the kkk to lynchings, to red summer riots, all the way up to the mass brutality that we see

all the way up to the prison complex. we have had brutality by the hand of white people in this country from its inception. we need to grapple with that. we need to deal with it. i hope we can go forward and recognizethat -- and and face truth in this nation so that everyone can enjoy equal thets under the law in united states of america. host: go ahead and respond there, chris. guest: was there a question? host: it was three statements. if you had see anything to add. guest: i didn't hear a question there. oft: there have been a lot criticisms of capitol police. showingpoint a video

capitol police letting protesters in. what is the accurate picture we should have of the capitol police right now? guest: i think your previous guest put it correctly. this is all going to be reviewed. there is going to be a robust investigation into what happened. videoseos -- i have seen -- a lot of lawmakers have seen the videos. there is a very intense need and requirement to investigate everything that went on on wednesday. i think it will be. ice all the facts come out, think that is when people will be able to make a full and informed understanding of what

occurred that day. , the guy whom ryan is the chairman of the legislative branch appropriations subcommittee in this was aaid failure on the leadership of the capitol police and as such he was disappointed in the leadership. lawmakers and chief sund and sergeants of arms assured him on wednesday that nobody would get up the capital .teps, it would be prepared the spokesperson for the capitol police held roll call the week prior. plan to a comprehensive make sure that they handled what happened on wednesday correctly. that clearly did not happen.

being said, from my conversations with my capitol police sources, there were a lot thatpitol police officers did their jobs valiantly. one of whom died in the line of the defending the capital. needs to be -- everybody's thoughts and prayers go out to the officer who died and the other four lives that were lost that day. once a full and robust thattigation is completed, is when determinations are going to be able to be made based on the facts of what happened. host: have we heard anything more about any type of funeral arrangements? least house majority has ordered pelosi

flags flown at half mast on their side of the capitol. have we heard about any other funeral information for what will be done for officer brian sicknick? guest: i don't have any details on that for you. host: let's go to nick detonate call -- let's go to mike calling from wisconsin. caller: i have a couple points i would like to make. i helped participate in a protest in washington dc. every time i have worked at the capitol police department, they have been really good, really helpful, so i do not have a problem with them. this does need to be investigated. -- these women and men have a difficult job.

--the flipside, i am not 1 not sure why everyone is surprised. for almost half a decade since the stagegan stood on queen, welfare queen, welfare queen," our country has been divided. this is not a donald trump problem. this is a republican problem. until our nation can discuss this and until all the provocateurs, all the people - -they need to be replaced. i kind of hope that mitch mcconnell sees this now. host: anything to add to that, chris? guest: not hearing a question

there. host: let's go to carolyn calling on the democratic line. caller: good morning. i would like to say we really venueiate you offering a where people can air their ideas and grievances. it is a great service you provide. what has transpired here and what i see happening, i am finding very discouraging. tendthere is a tragedy, we to piecemeal out justice to those whom we escape like the -- whom we escape the like the capitol police -- like theypegoat capitol police.

activitiese heinous -- when we have heinous events like the manson family, they got the family, but charles manson remained at large. get the head of the cobra. scot-free. not go ofause of the complexities trying to impeach again or the 25th amendment, that will not fly. there was a bill or law or something pelosi cited that stops trump from ever running for public office again. that must be implemented. host: we are running out of

time, so i want to ask another question to you. do we expect capitol police to be making anymore arrest outside of their jurisdiction on the capital? who is going after people inside the capitol? who is making the arrests at this point? guest: to my knowledge that is an initiative that is undertaken by several different agencies in conjunction with each other. police, thepitol arrests they did make on wednesday, where are those people being held? who makes the decision on who prosecutes those people? guest: the capitol police have a holding area on capitol hill. usually if they arrest people they will hold them there. as far as being charged, that is

the relevant u.s. attorney. host: let's see if we can get one more caller in here. let's talk to jeff calling from norton ville, kentucky on the republican line. caller: glad you let me get through. i was just wanting to make a -- the i guess about country is in turmoil. things are bad enough. the press has now turned this into a and right thing. white thing.ck and this is not about race. this is because they treated them different. should have been more prepared. there are white people up there who are just does not and we saw that wednesday. nuts and we saw that

wednesday. the press is stirring the pot again. as if things were not bad enough, here they are stirring the pot to get things riled up on black lives matter. i am not a racist in any way, but they are stirring the pot. why are they making it worse? beingwhat do you see asked for as reforms for the capitol police department and do you think any of them will move forward in this new congressional session? guest: i think a serious question that needs to be asked is does there need to be a fundamental overhaul of the entire departments into the way and the way in -- it functions as far as their information sharing techniques and the way in which they share

information and communicate with the public. there needs to be more information available about the department and what their operations are like and things of that nature. in addition to that, i think a lot of those congressional investigations that will be undertaken will produce a lot of answers on what needs to be done . to thankwould like chris marquette who is the congressional ethics reporter for cq roll call for coming on with us this morning ended sharing his information with us. thank you for your time. coming up next on washington journal, dr. joshua gordon will be here to discuss the mental health crisis caused by the ongoing coronavirus pandemic. stick with us. we will be right back. ♪

president offor the united states are as follows jr. of the biden state of delaware has received 306 votes. donald trump of the state of florida has received 232 votes. >> with the votes counted and confirmed by congress, attention onns to the inauguration january 20. joe biden and kamala harris take the oath of office as president and vice president of the u.s. live coverage on c-span begins at 7:00 eastern. watch live on c-span, watch streaming at c-span.org or listen on the free c-span radio app. communicators, outgoing chair of the fcc on the

future of the fcc under a biden presidency. >> we think the time has come 2014, toess, back in put open internet protections that we can all agree on. no blocking, no throttling, transparency, basic principles we can all agree on. it is up to elected officials in the next administration to make that determination. i hope as we engage that debate, we will not see what we saw in 2017 and 2018. eastern on 6:30 p.m. c-span. 60 newe are more than members of congress. this diverse group includes first-generation immigrants, state representatives, television reporters and former college and professional athletes. meet some of them, new

members of the 117th congress, all this week at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span, online at c-span.org and listen on the c-span radio app. >> washington journal continues. host: we are back. for this segment, we will be talking about the rising numbers of suicide rates in the united states, especially the rates as we go through this coronavirus pandemic. we have some information for you want to start out with the talks about suicide in the united states. right here, you can see suicide was the 10th leading cause of death in the united states in 2020, with on average of 132

americans dying by suicide every day. with another 1.4 million americans attempting suicide in the united states. we are going to go over some more of these facts and figures that show men who died by suicide 3.6 times more often are 1.4%n, but women more likely to attempt suicide. segment,k through this we want to remind you there are numbers you can call if you are facing, or know someone who is thinking about suicide. you see the numbers on the screen as we go through this segment. the national suicide prevention lifeline. that number, i will continue to talk about it. if you are thinking about, or you know someone who is facing

73-8255., we want1-800-2 the national suicide prevention lifeline. crisis also text to the text line. 741741.me" to we will keep those numbers up as we go through this segment, or we will talk about suicide during the coronavirus pandemic. i gave you some statistics earlier about men and women dealing with suicide. but during this pandemic, there is also rising numbers of children who are also facing and thinking about suicide. they are the story from the kaiser health network that i

want to bring to you the talks about what some children are facing. efforts to contain the spread of the novel coronavirus in the united states have led to drastic ways children learn to socialize. are of millions of students attending school through some form of distance learning. many extracurricular activities have been canceled. kids have struggled to cope and the toll is becoming evident. government figures show the proportion of children who arrived in emergency departments with mental health issues mid-march24% from through mid-october, compared to the same period in 2019. ,mong preteens and adolescents it rose 31%. some hospitals say they are seeing more cases of severe depression and suicidal thoughts among children, particularly in

attempts to overdose. increased demand on intensive mental health care has accompanied the pandemic -- some hospitals, the number of children unable to immediately get a bed on the psychiatric unit rose. unitslose psychiatric altogether to reduce the spread of covid-19. we will be talking about the rising rates of suicide among americans during the covid-19 pandemic. we want to know what you are seeing out there. something you want to talk about when it comes to the issue of mental health and suicide, we want to hear from you. we are going to open up regional lines for this conversation. if you are in the eastern or

central time zones, that means we want to hear from you at (202) 748-8000. if you are in the mountain and pacific time zones, your number will be (202) 748-8001. keep in mind, you can always text us at (202) 748-8003. we are always reading on social media, on twitter, and on facebook. i want to bring you some statistics that we can talk about from the national institute of mental health, where they show the u.s. suicide from 1999 to 2019, up last decade or so. officials are saying they are

seeing even more increases in that number because of the coronavirus pandemic. here is some information from the journal of american medical association, where they are talking about what they are seeing when it comes to suicide during the pandemic. many to the pandemic, countries were engaging in suicide prevention strategies. although the global burden of suicide deaths have increased, some national efforts were seeing positive results. the gap between mental health needs and services has been increasing in many nations. with the added physical and mental health, social and economic burdens imposed by the pandemic, many populations worldwide mate experience increased suicide risk. data and recent events during the first six months of the pandemic revealed certain risks. however, increases in suicide

rates are not a foregone conclusion, even with the negative effects of the pandemic. emerging suicide data from several countries showed no evidence of an increase in suicide during the pandemic so far. there are actionable steps that leaders can take to mitigate suicide risk during and after the pandemic. i want to know what you are seeing out there. are you seeing the lack of mental health resources, especially as medical facilities are being taken up by the pandemic? are you seeing a lack of mental health resources out there and what is the effect they are having on people you know and love? let's go to our phone lines. , who isart with cd calling from florence, kentucky. good morning. caller: good morning. first, let me say that mental health issues are still taboo in this country.

as a form of weakness. i suffer from alcoholism. i have not had a drink in 30 years. i have to look at some of my core issues. i deal with posttraumatic stress disorder from childhood issues and my job as a trauma nurse and paramedic. the things i have seen on the road. unless you deal with that, you can become overwhelming. this time of year is a very bad time of year for me, because of a christmas shopping thing with other people. because it is the holidays. i never cared for them. counseling to maintain an even keel. otherwise, i find myself isolating, locked away in my house when there is not a pandemic.

we are supposed to be the breadwinners, we are supposed to provide for our family and now we are no longer able to. what do we do? we are not useful anymore. we don't have a role in society anymore and that can be crushing. my dad was a police officer. he was disabled in an accident. he went through that for a long time until he started volunteering at the hospitals through the catholic church. one other thing is the way we treat mental health in this a sentiment of how sick this country really is. nothing people believe in anymore. thank you for taking my call and

you all have a great weekend. host: let's talk to an expert on these issues. let's bring on dr. joshua gordon, the director of the national institute of mental health. dr. gordon, good morning. caller: good morning. good to be here. host: tell us what the national institute of mental health is and what exactly do you all do their. caller: the national institute of mental health is the u.s. government's principal agency responsible for funding mental health research. we are the largest funder of mental health research in the world. host: how exactly are you all funded? who exactly do you report you? caller: the u.s. congress appropriates dollars to the national institute myself, i report to the director of the national institute of health, a political appointee.

the rest of us who work at an ih servants andcivil funded by the government. host: one thing i showed the viewers earlier was a statistic that shows suicide rates have been climbing over the last two decades. why? caller: that is a really good question i wish we knew the answer to. like most things with health and mental health, there are probably many, many reasons, amongst them include the rising challengescertainty, with economics, and lifestyles, s, substancenes use, etc.. all of these factors combined together and no one factor can explain the increase. we really don't know why those rates have been increasing

consistently for the past two decades. i do want to point out there is a glimmer of hope at the end of that seemly inexorable rise. rates went down ever so to 13.9 perm 14.2% 100,000. that means about 800 lives saved comparing 2019 to 2018. mayhink the reason why we --and i emphasize the "may" be seeing a decrease is the increased awareness around mental health and the investments we have put in at nimh about how to prevent suicide deaths. host: with all of the reasons you just told us that could be rate,g a rise in suicide

then you add covid-19 on top of all of that. has it begun affecting american lives, especially when we talk about the suicide rate in the united states? has the coronavirus made any change in those numbers? guest: in terms of affecting american lives, of course the covid-19 pandemic has had tremendous impact. we are seeing rates of depression, and anxiety, and stress increase dramatically in the population in the united states. we are also seeing some concerning signs around suicide, such as increases in the rates at which people are thinking about death or thinking about harming themselves. but, so far, the data on suicide say, mixed.t's first of all, you have to say for a lot of complex reasons, we

do not have suicide death data that is up-to-date, like, say, the number of deaths from covid, where we know it every day. it can take weeks to months to know if a death was death by suicide, and it takes six to eight months for most states to compile the data. we do not have nationwide suicide death rates yet from 2020. but the early indications from, let's say, late spring and early summer, we are not seeing a consistent increase in deaths by suicide in the united states or some of the states that have been reporting the data through that time, maybe around june. that does not mean we are out of the woods in terms of suicide deaths related to covid-19, and that is because the mental health consequences of disasters often take months to unfold. ofare still in the midst

this covid-19 disaster. i would say the jury is out on how it will affect suicide rates in they got states. host: i will mix in some of our callers. let's go to thomas, who is calling from durwood, marilyn. good morning. caller: good morning, general .entored supremacy has been in this country for 400, 500, 600 years. problema mental health that should be addressed. ,hy is it that white people such as yourself, phd or whatever title you have, are not stating that white people have a mental illness when how it comes to treating black people and

looking at skin color. this is a major mental illness in the united states today. the at what happened at capitol. white supremacy. that is not a mental health that is sweeping the nation and is paramount? i would like to hear your comments on that. guest: thank you for that question. first, let me acknowledge that white supremacy and other far travesty,logies are a they are disgusting, and as we saw on wednesday, they threaten our society in many ways. the issue whether to characterize white supremacy and other ideologies as mental illnesses is one that we in atchiatry and the society large have wrestled with for a long time. not all bad human behavior can

be characterized, or is best characterized, as a mental illness. but i completely agree with you, that white supremacy and other forms of violent ideology is a -- we need to do everything we can to rid our society of such behavior. in terms of using the tools we have to combat mental illness, we are not 100% sure that is the best way to describe it. host: who does suicide affect the most? men? women? what information do we have? guest: that is a really good question. men died by suicide at higher rates, but women attempt suicide at higher rates. why the difference? men are more likely to use more lethal means, particularly, they

are more likely to use firearms as the means by which they attempt suicide. deaths from suicide are higher for men. n orerms of which men ar women in terms of age or race, i encourage anyone interested to visit the cdc website, because they have really detailed statistics. the rates of suicide are highest amongst older men, middle age or elderly men in terms of deaths per 100,000. amongst also higher young adults in males than in females. the highest rates are in older adults. host: sorry, go ahead. guest: one very concerning

demographic, i think this is in direct relationship to the previous caller's comment, one concerning demographic is in black youth. historically in the united states, and over the last 20 years, blacks has had lower rates of death by suicide, perhaps for many reasons. lastack youth over the four or five years, we have seen concerning increases in the rates of death by suicide in that group. interestednimh are and are sponsoring a number of research studies to figure out why that is happening and what we can do to intervene. host: let's go back to our phone lines. vermont. good morning. caller: thank you for your good work. the pandemic has exacerbated the problem of not enough

professionals to help individuals with mental health issues in the u.s. and vermont. we have an issue with attracting and recruiting good psychiatrists, nurses and other mental health practitioners. the government could offer incentives to help solve the problem. i am hoping to hear a comment about that. i also want to make a comment, i appreciate the research from nimh, they have a lot of brain research and they are working with a variety of groups and universities on this. suicide by firearm is a problem. could a public service announcement maybe help retail places store firearm safely and how to remove firearms from a resident when someone has depression? aboutu remind the public the program that we need more help reduce the

stigma. i appreciate you being on. thank you. guest: thank you. have been to jamaica, vermont. it is a beautiful small town. andissues of small towns rural america trying to recruit mental-health professionals. from the perspective of getting more mental health services into issueareas, this is a big for the national institute of mental health. accessibility to care. it is a big issue -- this is an important issue that we recognize. from a research perspective, one solution we are trying to work on is to enable the increased access to mental health care in

communities without providers living there through means such tele-psychiatry. some of the best ways to do that is to provide consultation from psychiatrists to other health care providers in these rural areas. our research indicates patients yet better care and like the care better when they get that care through their primary care providers. they get better care when those primary care providers are working with psychiatrists, therapists and other mental health professionals. connecting those professionals at ineffective level is something our research is working on trying to figure out how to do. with regard to firearms and suicide, i think you mentioned some outstanding ideas around programs which we have in the past two years have been gathering more and more evidence

that they work. the american foundation for suicide prevention, a nonprofit and one of our partners in the fight against suicide, has actually started a program to work with retailers who sell firearms and provide them with literature and advice to have in their shops that help people learn about safe storage of firearms, with the particular focus on suicide prevention. the department of defense, the department of the army and the v.a. have been working on programs, for example, with their soldiers and their vets to increase the recognition that when someone is feeling down, someone is thinking about harming themselves, it really is ok for a friend or loved one to say, hey, let me take that gun from you or the key to the storage compartment from you, so

over the next few days or weeks, when you are at risk, you don't have to worry about impulsively taking that firearm and doing something that is irreversible. out there.rograms your last remark on stigma, that is really, really important. we can have conversations with firearm store owners, we can't have these conversations with soldiers and vets and others about the importance of discussing with friends and loved ones about how they are feeling and if they are thinking about harming themselves or suicide. we can't have these discussions if mental health in general or suicide in particular remain such a stigmatized area. host: like i said at the beginning of the segment, i will continue talking about the suicide prevention hotline and bring those numbers to on-screen. the national suicide prevention -273-8255.s 1-800

they have a crisis text line. 741741.e to text home to one of the questions i have for you is we have all been quarantined in our homes with our families for a lot of 2020. signs you caning watch for? signs that might alert you to the affected family member might be at risk for suicide? guest: absolutely. there are changes in behavior one can watch for in friends and loved ones. withdrawing from family and friends. saying goodbye. giving away possessions. those are concerning signs. people who might be taking dangerous risks. in the old day, we might think about driving dangerously fast.

or today, we might think about people walking out with a mask into big crowds. extreme mood swings. changes in eating or sleeping habits. people are not eating, not sleeping, or they might be sleeping throughout the day and staying up all night. using alcohol or drugs more often. plans orurse, making researching ways to die. these are changes in behavior that could indicate someone is at risk of suicide. you can ask those folks how they are feeling. feelings of emptiness, hopelessness, of having no reason to live, these are indications that something is seriously awry. people who are feeling extremely sad, anxious, or feel of rage,

but mostly people who are feeling unbearable emotional or physical pain. of course, you need to ask. people are often afraid to ask if friends or loved ones are thinking about suicide because it might put that idea in their heads. actually, our research has shown over and over and over again that asking is an act that actually helps. so ask people if they are thinking about wanting to die, if they are feeling guilty or shameful about their lives, if they feel like they are being a burden to others. ask them directly -- have you thought about killing yourself? have you thought about hurting yourself? if the answer to that is yes, helping them reach out to a professional -- their doctor, their therapist, a text line or a crisis line, those are great ways to help your friend or your loved one get the help that they need. host: let's talk to bill, who is calling from illinois.

good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. what do we know so far about the increase in suicide? mostly i mean, are these older people? men have the highest rate of suicide, but do we think the increase is in older people? are these people in nursing homes? are they living alone? are they living with a spouse? are they people who have been under financial stress? previous history of mental illness? i am curious about what we know about -- what are the specifics of what is going on -- where are the increases coming from? that is my question. guest: that is a great question.

the answer is pretty much "yes" to everything you just said. all of the individual factors, whether someone is living alone, older, having had economic difficulties, interpersonal difficulties, lost a friend, spouse or loved one. these are all factors that raise your risk for suicide. you also mention, perhaps the biggest factor is a past history of mental illness or suicide attempts. , which isso caution that suicide rates over 20 years have been increasing in just about every single demographic hispanic,black, particularly native american, every age group, from the elderly, middle-aged, young

adult and, tragically, in a teenagers and preteens. we are seeing this increase across the board. it is very concerning. there are risk factors, it is really affecting every facet of american society. host: i want to bring a couple of statistics from the cdc to expand on that. the highest suicide rate by age, one of the things of the caller was getting toward, women ages 45 to 54, and men who are 75 years and older. those are the highest suicide rates by age right now. that might more directly answer the questions that the caller had. one of the things we continue to see is medical resources going toward fighting the coronavirus pandemic.

has this effort to fight coronavirus reduced the amount of attention and funding that mental health, depression, and suicide prevention would have gotten in a normal year? guest: i think i can comfortably say the answer is no. fortunately, the appropriations at the federal level that have gone to the coronavirus have resources, or in addition to the resources, that have gone to mental health. there have been some increases in resources for mental health -- in the covid pandemic, there have been additional dollars given to the mental health services administration. moneyh has gotten some that has got to understanding and researching the mental health impacts of the pandemic.

responsee, i consider to the mental health crisis that we are concerned about in the context of covid, it has not been as robust as we would like. we need more resources to meet increased demands. i would not say that resources have gone down in the context of the pandemic, yet. that is at the federal level. obviously, states and local governments are struggling with the public health consequences of the pandemic and the economic consequences of the pandemic. i do not have direct knowledge of the impact of that on local and state resources to support those with serious mental illnesses, and i worry about that quite a lot, because most of the dollars that go to care of people with mental health and serious mental illness are coming from public sources, and

are coming from local and state governments, not from the federal government. host: like everything else during this past year, mental health services, like all other non-emergency -- i'm not going to say non-emergency, but like many other medical assistance -- have gone virtual. are we finding that virtual mental health doctor visits and psychiatrist visits are as effective as being there in person? guest: our research indicates that when done properly ,tele- psychiatry and the use of technology to deliver mental health care in general can be as effective as in person visits. that is the good news. another piece of good news is movingychiatry has been more and more to the use of these technologies, really at the forefront of medicine, a lot

of what you do in a typical mental health visit can be done completely and effectively virtually. when the pandemic hit, and the outpatient health care system shifted as much as possible to a virtual mode, psychiatry and other mental health services pivoted very, very, very quickly. our friends at the kaiser permanente research institute have shown that the mental health visits went virtual very, very quickly. up very quickly so mental health services are being delivered nearly at the rate they were delivered pre-pandemic. the data also shows the reach of those services is pretty universal from at least a race and ethnicity standpoint. course,oncerned, of that those without access to

high-speed internet, or to the that theyrtphones, might have trouble accessing virtual care during these periods. psychiatry visits can be done over the regular telephone, and they can be done virtually with low bandwidth. the kaiser data shows, in terms of access to health care from ethnicity,aces and across the board has been done well during the pandemic. host: let's go to spokane, washington. good morning. caller: good morning. guest: good morning. attentionwant to draw to something that is not really being addressed. what causes huge numbers of persons from all facets of society, who have previously not

behaved in such a way, to get to this stage? it is because of the real problems for which they are so frustrated are not being addressed and they are at the end of their rope. i have seen people calling in saying they are starving, and yet congress sits there, arguing for months over whether to give people $2000. and yet they give away to all these other countries nothing in relation to our current problems. as to the addressing of the physical or mental state, i can see the frustration which may over a period of time, lead to physical damage, not only to their body, lives and brains, that is where the mental illness is. it is not mental, it is physical. when a case to the point where it is damaging your body.

r addressinga docto this aspect, which the pharmaceutical companies keep in the background. host: go ahead and respond. guest: i appreciate the question and the comment. facets i wouldal like to comment on. first, with regard, as i said before, to the issue of people being brought to the point of society by thes stresses and deprivations that are going hundred right now in the covid pandemic and the economic situation. with theart and parcel same phenomenon that is happening with self-directed violence and suicide.

when people are under stress, they are more prone to acting impulsively. they are more prone to acting out. they are more prone, as you point out, to desperate actions. we can say the economic up people that the covid pandemic and all the deprivations it has caused upon society will increase the rates at which people are acting out in all different ways. i would add, also, in terms of trying to understand how best to respond to it, that we need a comprehensive response across society. we need to ensure that people have the basics that they need to survive. people need roofs over their head, close to keep them warm and they need food to sustain them. they need social interaction to be able to care for each other and to be able to sustain themselves. any society should do everything

it can to do that. we also need resources for health care and mental health care. finally, in terms of the interaction between the body and the mind, these are really crucial factors in the development of mental illnesses. we do know that psychological stress impacts the body all over, whether it be your heart, your stomach, or your brain. you are correct that mental illnesses are not divorced from physical illnesses. they are illnesses of the body. they are illnesses of the organ in your body that creates behavior -- they are illnesses of the brain. we need to appreciate that and understand that if we are going to combat them. host: one of the things that we know that over the past year, doctors, nurses and other first responders have been put under

tremendous stress trying to keep up with and trained to prevent further infections from covid-19. are we seeing any type of mental health issues, such as depression, affecting doctors and nurses and first responders who have had to work extremely hard to try to keep covid-19 under control over the last year? guest: one of the most tragic stories i learned about early in the pandemic here in new york, where i live, is -- was the story of a promising young doctor in new jersey who was overwhelmed treating patients with covid when the pandemic was at its worst in the early spring, and then contracted covid herself and never really recovered and died by suicide within six or eight weeks after

the pandemic. there are numerous other stories like that of health professionals who have been overwhelmed and developed mental illnesses as a consequence of the stress. what we do not see, though, is a dramatic increase in the rates arehich these heroes overcome with mental illnesses to the point where they cannot function. anecdotally, yes they are there and it is happening, but it is not a wave. that is for a number of complex reasons. number one, mental illnesses often strikes a little bit later. the big wave we are experiencing now, or hospitals all over the country, and particularly in southern california and parts of the midwest, have been overwhelmed. those doctors and nurses are struggling with the patients right now and they have not yet

come to reckon with the effects on their own lives. secondly, one of the real protective factors in the context of disasters like this pandemic is the ability to feel like you are helping at making a difference in the disaster. we find that emergency responders, or people who are around the neighborhoods and try to help their neighbors deal with the aftermath of a hurricane or tornado, etc., people who volunteer to help feed people who need feeding, or to help rebuild. those people tend to be more resilient in the end, because of the efforts they have put in to combat the pandemic. while we do worry very much about our frontline health care the act of find that being engaged in helping is somewhat protective. most hospital systems are aware

of the stresses on their employees to the best of their ability they are providing mental health services for those employees, and we are conducting research on what works and what is not in that context. host: i have a question for you from one of our social media followers who wants to know, are all suicides due to mental illness? guest: that is a really great question, and there are some differing opinions for the answers that question. there has been research over the past 30 or 40 years -- it goes back quite a long time -- that deeplyed if you delve into the lives of individuals lost to suicide, you will find as many as 90% of them will have evidence in their medical records, in their family interviews, etc., that would suggest they may have had a mental illness. yes, the vast

majority of suicides are related to a mental illness. but if you look at it less deeply and just ask, of the people who died of suicide, how many of them had concrete evidence of a diagnosed mental illness, you find that only about half, or even a little bit less than half, had a diagnosable mental illness. i would say there is some controversy on this fact. most experts agree that the majority, and perhaps a substantial majority, of people who die by suicide have either a mental illness at the time of the death or earlier. what that means is really important to recognize. it means mental health care practitioners and other health care practitioners can probably do a better job of preventing suicide if we can identify and treat people with mental illnesses better. host: let's talk to dylan, who

is calling from south dakota. good morning. am a disabled veteran with ptsd from combat and everything else i have put myself through. i just lost my wife about a year ago. with covid, it is hard to get out to the v.a., so i am just kind of using all of the tools that i learned in treatments. ptsd,the whole world has you know? here, youhanging in know? i am waiting for the v.a. to get these vaccinations going. i am70 years old, and retired. with me, thank god.

day-to-day and trying to do the right things. ptsd is something that a lot of people are running with and they don't even realize because they do not have the insight into it. guest: let me just say thank you for your service and i am really sorry you are having a hard time. like many americans and many vets. i am glad you are connected with your son and the v.a. . it is very important that people with pre-existing mental illnesses, and ptsd, stay connected with their care providers, and their family and friends because they can be lifesaving. you mentioned about the v.a. and vaccines, the v.a. has received

allotments of vaccines from operation warp speed, the federally coordinated effort to distribute vaccines. i hope you will get that vaccine soon. high, you are in a priority for it. i hope you will get it soon. i hope that will ease your ability to access care. i hope you are reaching out to your care providers at the v.a. by phone, or by the internet, because that can be really, really helpful. best of luck to you and thank you for your comment. host: how does a professional like you treat people who have depression, high anxiety, or at risk for suicide? guest: that is a really good question. professionals use a combination of treatments with depression or anxiety.

for severely affected individuals, they will generally try to combine treatment, give them an evidence-based psychotherapy, like behavioral medication well as a . for depression, it would be an antidepressant medication. for anxiety, it would be a different medication. usually, combined treatment for those severely affected are indicated. suicide, there are some medications that can resist the chance. medication treatment that aims at the underlying medical condition of the underlying mental illness. psychotherapies that have very good evidence for their ability to reduce suicide attempts and suicide deaths.

one of those is a form of , it canal therapy, ddt be very effective. there are some simple steps that we often ask our patients and their families to take. some of them have come up earlier in the program. patients ask that our and our families try to remove lethal means that might be in the home. if there is a firearm in the home, lock it up or ask a neighbor or friend to hold onto it for a while. if the individual has been thinking about jumping out a window, put a window lock on the window so the window cannot be opened. try to figure out ways you can reduce access to means of suicide. another important action is to not leave the family member or friend alone. help keep them safe by being with them, my being there for

them, my talking to them and listen to them. of course, if they are not in treatment, we would say another helpful preventative step is to help them get the treatment by calling that lifeline, the crisis text line or talking to their doctor. host: let's talk to debby, who is calling from roswell, new mexico. caller: good morning. i had to break out my sociology book for this question. program earlier in the that you are not really sure on why all the suicides are happening. in fourt classifications. if you look at every suicide, you will fall into one of those four categories. it is basically what is happening. nobody knows what we are doing. we are not tethered to anything. the organic society is not happening. when you say we are not sure on

why they did this or that, he explained it all years ago. you know exactly why they fit into each one of these categories. people who have absolutely no mental health problems at all all the sudden fall into these categories. i am perplexed about why you said it will take years to figure this out, when he put it in four categories. i will take my answer offline. thank you. guest: thank you for that comment. but it has been a while. you point out that we do know many of the contributing factors to suicide, and i am sorry if i misled you in that regard. stresses,at economic interpersonal stresses are huge risk factors for suicide. we talked about some of the others, including the presence of a mental illness. what we don't really know, though, is why this consisted increase over the last 20 years.

the economy has gotten better, it has gotten worse, and then better again and then worse again over the past 20 years, yet suicide rates have been consistently increasing year after year until 2019, when there was a slight dip. factors absolutely contribute to an individual's risks for suicide, but we do not understand why there has been this consisted increase across society. host: let's see if we can get a couple more callers in. owings mills, maryland. good morning. caller: good morning, dr. gordon. thank you for c-span. first time caller. i was wondering if you could unpack something for me a little bit more. you have already touched on it a little bit.

i was really interested in that correlation between financial how peoplesuicide, seem to get in over their head financially and have too many obligations each month. it has been a difficult year with the virus, economically, of course. people have lost their jobs, or their hours have been cut back drastically. they were full-time, now they are part-time, or they are out of the job market entirely. the financial stress, for me, is just something that i have really struggled with.

do you think that people struggling to get their house in order financially, that that spills over into mental health stress, and god for bid, suicide? host: go ahead and answer. call andappreciate the i appreciate once to know more about the depth of the connection. economic stress, loss of a job, loss of income, that is one of many factors that raise risk for suicide. for any one individual, you often -- i would say always -- find a multitude of factors for those individuals. it is not just economic stress. it is not just interpersonal difficulties. it is not just social isolation. it is not just a mental illness. it is a combination of factors for just about everyone.

sorry to hear about the complications were facing. i hope you have access to support, whether it be in your community, your family, or through friends, the can help mitigate the effects of that one risk factor. i also hope you have a roof over your head. i hope you have enough food to eat. those are factors. have the ability to reach out to professionals who can help you. those are available to people through public health measures. costly at a reduced or no for people who need it. that theecognizing economic impact, economic downturns and individual economic circumstances or a

really strong factor, an important factor, but they are not the only ones, and many factors can help mitigate against those circumstances. host: we would like to thank dr. joshua gordon, the director of the national institute of mental health, for being with us this morning and talking to us about the suicide and mental health crisis in the united states. dr. gordon, thank you for taking the time. guest: thank you for having me. host: i want to remind everyone that the national suicide prevention lifeline is 1-800- 273-8255. the text line, text "home" to 741741. we want to thank all of our viewers and callers. stick around for c-span for the rest of the day and come back here again tomorrow morning for another washington journal. stay

every dayton journal, we take your calls live on the air discussing policies that impact you. coming up sunday, a discussion on covid-19 vaccines with an infectious disease professor. we will talk about reforming presidential power and accountability with harvard law professor jack goldsmith. watch "washington journal" live at 7:00 sunday morning. join the conversation with phone calls, facebook comments, text messages and tweets. >> user website c-span.org /coronavirus to follow the federal response to the coronavirus outbreak. watch our searchable video anytime on demand and track the spread with interactive maps, all at c-span.org/coronavirus.

>> the votes for president of the united states are as follows, joseph r. biden junior of delaware received 306 votes. donald j. trump with florida has received 232 votes. 2020th the votes of the presidential election counted and confirmed by congress, attention turns to the inauguration of the 46 president of the united states. on january 20, joe biden and kamala harris take the oath of office as president and vice president of the u.s. our coverage begins january 20.watch live on c-span , streaming or on-demand at c-span.org or listen with the free c-span radio app. >> by a partyline vote of 217-206, the house approved a rules package establishing

procedures and guidelines for members to follow for the next two years both on and off the house floor. therethe adopted rules, is a change to how the minority party can use what is known as the motion to recommit in their effort to amend legislation before a final vote. the rules package also removes gender specific nouns, exempts certain bills from deficit controls, and bands members from knowingly sharing distorted images on official accounts. here is floor debate on the rules package before final passage. recognized for one hour. mr. hoyer: thank you very much, madam speaker. i ask unanimous consent that time allocated to me be controlled by the gentleman from massachusetts, chairman of the rules committee, mr. mcgovern. the speaker pro tempore: without objection. the gentleman from massachusetts is recognized. mr. mcgovern: i want to thank the majority leader for yielding me the time.