business on january 19. ♪ announcer: you are watching c-span, your unfiltered view of government. c-span was created by america's television companies in 1979. today, we are brought to you by these television companies, who provide c-span to viewers as a public service. ♪ ues. host: we are back with terrance gainer, who worked as the chief of the u.s. capitol police, and has also served as the senate sergeant in arms. chief gaynor, good morning. guest: good morning, jesse. host: one of the first questions i have for you is do you think the were sufficiently prepared for what they faced on wednesday? guest: i believe the original plan they were prepared for, and that was a lot of protesters.

the violence that developed out of that, and the viciousness of the crowd, they were less prepared for. , you these type of events would expect that the capitol police would have contingency plans for. what type of plans do the capitol police -- did the capitol police have for these type of contingencies when you were there, and what type of plans do you think they have now? guest: jesse, i think since this incident, when putting up the fence, places upstairs are significantly safer. what we don't have yet and there is just a lot of talk, because we haven't seen it, is the extent of the plans. both the house and senate sergeant at arm's are good men with long careers in law enforcement and handling a lot of events up on the hill, just the way chief sund has been. he was an excellent commander and an excellent chief.

we don't know what went awry. was we do know is the crowd very, very large and very, very vicious. in any of the photos you look at, or films, would indicate how they were. when you do planning for these large events, you have people that are very visible and you have civil disturbance units, again depending on the intelligence waiting to be deployed if they are needed. and they were deployed, especially i saw them on the east front of the capital, where those officers fought for well aer up to 90 minutes with very vicious crowd of protesters who were dressed as if they were the civil disturbance unit, and were using a chemical spray, hairspray, and other things. the officers held out as long as

they could, but the crowd just got too large. host: one of the questions that many people who watch this video -- watch these videos but happened on -- that happened on wednesday is, are capitol police armed with lethal and nonlethal weapons for these situations? guest: yes, they are. they have expandable batons. they have cs spray and of course sidearms. i think it is wrong to assume that even as mean and rotten as were,marauders or rioters you don't open fire on them. just heard a lot of conversation about it that it is unfair to think the officers were put in a position to use deadly force in the building. so when those protesters did rush, especially when you see it coming up the east staircase, those officers were trained and

-- trained that it would be inappropriate to open fire. we need to put that aside. host: explain some of the training that day do for officers in those situations. what are officers trained to do in those situations where you have someone who has broken into the u.s. capitol, who is threatening to harm police officers at the very least, and possibly harm the people that the police officers are protecting, what are officers trained to do in those situations? guest: remember, these are good, highly trained federal law enforcement officers. they go to a six-month school, the federal law enforcement training center. they are fully certified, great law enforcement officers with a lot of experience. the question is compound, so let's take it apart. the places that were violated are areas where they -- where

pedestrians or anybody would go. if you have ever been up to the capital, and so many of your viewers have, they wouldn't even be allowed on those steps or landings. so a lot of what law enforcement does across the united states is assume people are going to follow the order of what police officers do. if you are walking down the street and there is a sign that , thethe sidewalk is closed presumption is you are going to go to the sidewalk across the street, not charge through the light barricade that is there. the whole issue we were talking about is once the crowd came through and started charging up those stairs, there were a limited number of officers, and there are photos of the heavily armed officers with long guns. --re would not have been trained or expected to use deadly force when people are rushing up the stairs. they would form defensive lines as best as they could to push

them back down, but they became outnumbered. and the behavior of what was supposed to be, or what the department thought would be butwed but -- a loud peaceful, boisterous crowd, became very vicious. change the dynamics between the capitol police officers and people rushing up the stairs. i am telling you that using deadly force to protect property would not have been appropriate. they were adjusting, trying to get in position, and the department was trying to get more people in position, but the was being rushed from multiple sides. host: let me remind our viewers that they can take part in this conversation. i am sure a lot of us have questions for terrance gainer. we will open up our regular guy -- regular lines. democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001.

.ndependents, (202) 748-8002 you can ois text us at [video clip] (202) 748-8003 and we are always reading on twitter and facebook. -- chief gainer, we just showed some snippets of the video published by "the washington post" of the events that happened inside the capital that led up to the shooting of air force veteran ashli babbitt. have you seen this video, and can you explain to us from the law enforcement perspective, some of the things that happened , and what those officers must have been thinking? not a lotl, there's that should be said about that now, because it's under investigation by not only the capitol police but the fbi and

the federal bureau of investigation. it is under investigation and we don't talk about that. but i can tell you about in general what was going on, without having seen and have all the facts, which is a dangerous thing to do. those protesters were violent and trying to break into an area pretty close to the house chamber. agents officers and inside the last doors that were protecting people protected those in the chamber, and from anybody trying to get in the chamber. it was a very different -- dangerous situation, because the primary responsibility of the capitol police officers and agents is the protection of life. there were members in that chamber. so they were trained and the expectation is that they would not let the chambers be

breached. i believe that is what the officers and agents were trying to do. that is very positive out of this, that notwithstanding how terrible this looked, notwithstanding the windows and in,s broken and they got that those officers and agents were able to protect all the members, all the staff, and ultimately get them safely out of there. your viewers should know that neither the house chamber nor the senate chamber was breached by any of those rioters while there was staff or members in there. it is when the appropriate order was given to move to another police both the capitol in the chamber, and those who came to their assistance, moved the members of the house and senate senate out of their respective chambers

to a safe area. that is when you saw the rioters were in the hallways and then out of the chamber. the agents of the united states capital's did what we wanted them to do. they protected the lives of the constitutional officers into the staff as frightening as it was for both members and staff, they got him to safety. andmately what the men women of the capitol police did along with assistance from the metropolitan police department of washington, swept the agent of both people and declared dead of any devices they may have brought in and they were able to those chambers, get the constitutional officers back in and conduct their business. they ultimately did what we wanted them to do, what america

needed them to do. that will spend time as appropriate. certain -- the chief was, i am certain as we follow up, willfully explore what happened. take partviewers well in this conversation in just a second but first question for you chief gainer. there were questions about whether there were calls to the national guard, calls to the metropolitan police department. what is the process and what is your understanding about why and how it took so long for the capitol police to be reinforced by the national guard? guest: we do not have the data to do that. -- ispectation are

data-driven policing to that is how we make decisions. i know because i have worked with these people. by that i mean the capitol police. were doingent they at various moments what needed to be done. there were some reinforcements broaden but -- brought in. that needs to be explored and analyzed and assessed. if there were weekends, whether it was in the interpretation of weaknesses,ence -- whether it was in the interpretation of the intelligence, we will understand that. even if those people had not forced to resign or forced to leave their offices,

they would have been doing that, they should be pardoned on the after action report. host: let's let some of our viewers take part in this conversation. let's start with sarah calling from madison, north carolina on the democratic line. caller: good morning. forve been watching c-span quite a few years and i am considering canceling his twitter account definitely -- it is definitely time because of all the time he spent on twitter he should have been handling covid-19 and all the other times when he should have been doing his job he was always on twitter . he never did his job hardly within the past year and a half. there is an old saying that only the way kid flee when only no man pursueth.

donald trump knows if he ever leaves that white house that someone out there is waiting for him. he is a coward. his son is a coward. host: let's see if i all huntington, west virginia -- if lionel from huntington, west virginia has a question for chief gainer. caller: the man u have got sitting there -- you have got sitting there, we saw capitol thece escorting antifa into building and then blame somebody else for it. they are waving them in and holding the doors open for them. host: chief gainer, would you like to respond to that? guest: i have not seen those videos or pictures.

it is wrong to assume that the officers of the u.s. capitol police were not doing anything other than fighting them off or trying to de-escalate. i believe your assessment of what they were trying to do was incorrect. there is a plethora of picture how hard thoset officers were fighting to protect the building and the chambers and the members into the staff. the staff.and one capitol police officer was killed. there were four deaths in and around this assault. don't you dare say the capitol police officers were not trying to protect the building. incident, i have talked to officers who were in their and they are crushed --

were in there and they are crushed. theyloved their job and were overcome and not in a position to use deadly force because so many things should have happened in this time -- type of incidents. they fought valiantly. have a little respect for what they were trying to do. host: we send our condolences out to the family of officer sicknick. we understand that any loss-of-life is a tragedy, but in loss of a police officer the line of duty is a double tragedy. we want to send our condolences to the family of the officer sicknick. let's go back to our phone lines

and talk to douglas calling from niceville, florida. caller: good morning. i think you can hear me. in to say first off you can look at this man -- this man is a man of honor and integrity. i understand he is in there to do damage control. my only criticism would be six months of training and we have come to this? this is what they have been trained to do? i would think people with pipe arms smashing in windows, you would open fire. i don't know what their training is but -- how do you let people a soul white house? the white house? i am ashamed of that woman, ashamed of her. i do not know what to say. host: your response, chief

gainer? andt: they are well trained it is not just six months. they are trained when they come back up here. it would have been a different situation had an officer seen a pipe bomb. then they would have used the appropriate deadly force or force likely to cause death. theve said all along and chief of arms have talked about the consequences of how this unfolded, we need to understand how we lost the steps. they accessed the doors and windows. that needs to be explored. at the doors, and windows as they entered, you are in a terrible situation and breaking in and trespassing on that property was not the moment to

begin shooting. it was the need to have additional resources and backup personnel. ultimately members of the metropolitan police department were notified as were other federal law-enforcement agency and they began to respond. it is fair to criticize us. it is fair to ask the question how soon where they notified, how fast did they get there and what would have changed if they had -- if that had occurred? they indicated that they were prepared for the type of protesters we have scores of times in d.c. and in most major cities. the issue about what should they have known and everybody else -- i expectave to criticism.

are sergeant of arms, i would be held responsible as the leaders of those organizations are, but they are good men with good intentions. something went awry and we have to figure that out. it was ugly. it was shameful what the president and his son and giuliani did to egg people on. the people obviously who came up, many were and on his still it is -- on hostilities and harm. we need to unravel why we were not able to have up at her sense of how and when it was going to how -- a better sense of and when it was going to turn. host: we saw a permanent fence go up around the white house and a temporary fence go up around the capital.

you have suggested a permanent fence around the capital. would that have made any difference on wednesday? but i it would have, understand why there has been pushed back. when you say fence people conjure up all sorts of things. we proposed a number of years ago was a fence similar to what you see around the white house that alternates between iron fencing and the beautified it so youwe designed access.ve 24/7 the challenge on the hill that we continue to have is wanting to keep it open and inviting for the people who have every right to come and visit the house of the people, visit members of

congress and meet with them inside and outside the capitol . actually provide a great site line and sound line from independence and constitution, first avenue on the west and to avenue on the east or -- where the supreme court and the library of congress is and you had multiple entrances manned by capitol police. but would have access 24/7 they would have to pass through the types of checkpoints he would have to pass through at the airport. standoffd establish a so you are not trying to fight people at the door. the door could come to with explosive devices. we move them out from the building, but you have complete

access to the grounds. that proposal was for senate, staff, committees and it was cashht it was to expensive expensive and it was not the look they wanted for the capitol. visitor center allowed you to entered in a different area. that was a good attempt. a lot of money, a very long process to make an entrance for people who are respectful of the law. ifis much more difficult, you are going to leave the building accessible from every angle, and there is no way to check those individuals until they attack you.

when you have seen the inaugurations, ulc have the fencing can be put up on a -- see how the fencing can be put up on a temporary basis. that is how you screen people, and make sure those with ale intent are screened -- ill intent are screened. can interactnt with them. have done is put temporary fencing up close to but people still have access to the green, grassy area. that is better than nothing, but it still brings people to close -- too close. callingt's go to nancy

from altoona, pennsylvania on the democrats' line. caller: i am totally agreeable that this went way beyond what anyone expected and it is appalling and disgusting. the police acted in the best interest of the situation. you.mend the vision is still have -- division is still happening in this country. we have to know and move forward. president trump was definitely a factor in this, but how many people in washington could have stopped this and the police -- there they are -- brought in more division that black lives would have been treated

differently in this situation than what happened here at the capitol. know what to not do at this point because the radical people causing the trouble are both black and white. host: your response, chief gainer? appreciate what i hear you saying and complementing not me but the leadership and staff that were up there. that is the inference. it would be wonderful and appropriate if the chief of the could sit here and to do this, but one day they will do that. that is generally not some thing that happens. my desire to be on c-span and

try to do that is to shed some go,t on how things normally how they are trained, how generally things are done and tried to differentiate between the work that is normally done and these large, huge, where there are dozens of people into the difference between what we are experiencing now -- and the difference between what we are experiencing now where violent people want to do violent things into they are incited by people who should know -- and they are incited by people who should know better. deny what they did right. i agree wholeheartedly that we do need to calm the rhetoric down. even those people who are very the thingsr many of

ought to participate in calling this down. if people want to have conversations about how law enforcement -- that is a fair conversation but it is difficult to compare what transpired squareago at lafayette into the misconduct of those who directed lafayette square to be emptied and watch went on in this particular -- what went on in this particular incident. it is fair to ask the question andur people, our police their treatment of people irrespective of the color of of culture, of philosophical difference. police chiefs are trying to

figure that out. . know there is a divide i do not believe that is a salient issue in what transpired on that hill. host: let's go to john calling from milford, pennsylvania on the republican line. caller: good morning. i would like to say condolences to anyone who passed away in this right. -- this riot. my question for mr. gaynor is in the police department, are you gainer is the police department are you telling me that you are allowed to shoot from around a corner?

were standinghat guard at the door with their guns drawn while the people were at the door chanting and trying to get in, are you telling me it would have been allowed to open fire like a videogame and shoot these people that did not have guns on them -- i know they do not know that, but are they allowed to shoot these people who are unarmed? if this was done to black people it would have been an uproar. myself, but this white woman was unarmed. i don't think i will get an answer, because i don't inc. you can shoot people coming through a door -- think you can shoot people coming through a door like a videogame. ducking things when i say it is under investigation. for 44been a policeman

years. i hear what you are saying. there are strict rules on when you can shoot and not shoot. one, the picture you're talking about with the officers in the chamber with their runs outpointed towards -- guns pointed towards protesters, they did not shoot. each of those incidents will be investigated. you know based on the style of your question, and viewers should know, there are strict rules on when you can use deadly force. we would need another two rules rules into thee supreme court cases that guide police officers -- and the supreme court cases that guide police officers, but they did not use deadly force.

the deadly force that was used will be investigated. rules determine when you have to protect constitutional leaders or members of congress. decision to use deadly force is based on a lot of factors. host: we would like to thank the former senate sergeant at arms, terrance gainer for being on with us this morning and being gracious enough to take our questions. chief gainer, great to see you again. guest: ♪ c-span's washington journal, every day taking your calls on the air about the news of the day in discussing -- and discussing policy issues that

impact you. coming up, president trump's final days in office, with the brookings institution's william golson. watch washington journal live at 7:00 a.m. eastern sunday morning. c-span,g up tonight on c-span shares the story of the various immigrant groups from several american cities. then, a discussion on shakespeare's influence on the american founders and our constitutional values. after that, dr. anthony fauci provides an update on the coronavirus pandemic. ♪ you're watching c-span, you're on f