>> washington journal continues. host: the topic is now immigration. our guest is sabrina rodriguez

of politico. thanks for joining us. guest: thank you for having me. host: a recent piece, the headline says immigration, biden's plan to outdo obama, undo trumps immigration legacy has begun. he has been putting out executive orders. there is legislation. give us a broad overview of what the president wants to do in the area of immigration. guest: there's a lot that has happened in a short amount of time. it is not just me saying that. we are talking democrats, republicans, immigrant advocates. it was a very busy day on immigration. he has the released the plan of what he wants the reform bill to look like on capitol hill. what it looks like and what it will ultimately be if it passes will probably have changes. some of the top lines are offering a pathway to citizenship for the country's

estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants. tackling room positive migration. the situation in central america as well as adding technology and figuring out how to tackle security at the border in a way that is not from president donald trump or the wall. the trump administration, president trump did more than 400 different actions on immigration, executive actions. he is also in the process of undoing a lot of that. on day one he signed multiple executive orders and memos rolling back construction of the border wall. securing president obama's daca program as well as moving forward on things like that. doing a 100 day moratorium on most deportations. times to really figure out

homeland security. host: she is sabrina rodriguez of politico. we are talking about immigration reform. we will have lines set up for democrats, republicans, independence. you laid out the broad overview. you mentioned what president trump did and what president biden is undoing. could you remind us where congress left off on the immigration issue? what does it mean as they receive this big proposal from the president? guest: congress has been unable to do comprehensive immigration reform. the last time they had a big effort was in 2013. it was a bipartisan effort. there were faces like marco rubio and lindsey graham that were both involved in this process at the time. they were able to pass a bill through the senate.

it ended up falling apart in the house. a lot of people are concerned. they don't want to see it happen again. they are concerned it will happen again. on capitol hill, senator bob menendez is leading the effort. saying this is going to be very difficult. he says he would not have lent his name, if you thought the biden administration would not have put political capital behind it. this seems like an area they will really push. rubio has been involved in the 2013 effort. he has said already this is a nonstarter. he does not like biden's proposal. mitch mcconnell now senate minority leader has said it creates huge incentive to rush

into the country. it does seem like it is a priority for this administration. host: before we get to calls, let's dig into a little bit of the policy provisions the president has put out. you write about the u.s. citizenship after 2021, it speaks to that pathway for the 11 million undocumented immigrants in this country. how would this work? guest: he's breaking it up into two groups of undocumented immigrants. if you already have? or temporary protected status, if they meet specific requirements they could automatically get a green card. they would automatically be eligible for a green card. three years later could apply for citizenship. if you don't qualify in that

group, it would be you could have temporary legal status for five years, apply for a green card and three years later have citizenship. that is the eight year pathway. one of point they are making because of this rhetoric that people will rush the border is you must have been in the united states on or before january 1 of this year to even qualify. it is not that people will be able to get citizenship or green cards automatically if they come now. that is a big point. host: our first call for sabrina rodriguez of politico. we are talking about immigration. carolyn, good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for having this subject. i'm a democrat but i do not agree with biden on this issue. they are leaving the borders open to let the gates flooded in.

unless you live right around them or in them you don't understand what the people go through. they come into the united states and don't pay any taxes. food stamps, free food, then they come and get the ssi, that is free. they don't pay into it. that is why we are not getting social security like we should. we need to stop letting these palpable -- people come here and get free stuff. host: as a post to a structure to improve the situation that many want, what are you suggesting? what would your proposal be to the problem? caller: you have to find out if they pay taxes like we do. let them pay taxes for five years. if they pay into the system,

then they could be considered being a citizen. most of them go right on welfare get free money, free food stamps, free everything. the people here are paying for it with taxes. host: thank you for calling, let's hear from our guest. you could hear the passion that. what you make of that argument? guest: carolyn's point hits at something a lot of people have talked about. not paying taxes, there is a system they are not buying into. a lot of undocumented immigrants do pay taxes currently. under biden's proposal the qualifications to get a green card or apply for a green card they need to be paying taxes. there are fees they have to pay and all of that. it is not like a free green card or free citizenship.

what we are talking about the situation at the border, lawmakers on the border -- we are talking senator john cornyn of texas, henry clay, they have discussed and talked publicly a lot about how there needs to be a different system at the border. republicans have been more concerned and more careful how they phrase it. not wanting to cross donald trump on the border wall. there needs to be a different system for how to deal with the situation at the border. having stronger technology to secure the border. this seems to hit at that.

the way the biden administration is selling this is three pieces. one is the pathway to citizenship, one is smart border control, the third is the root causes of the migration. definitely focused on border security in some way. they're not trying to sell it somewhat the trump administration did. that is the phrase that is being used by republicans. the way that biden is pitching this -- host: what does that mean for the construction of the border wall? does construction stop? guest: one of the memos the biden administration signed was president trump had used this national emergency declaration a couple of years ago to reroute funds to build the wall since mexico did not pay for it. he issued a national emergency

so he could reroute funds from the defense department. one of the first executive orders from the biden administration has been immediately ending that declaration and halting construction of the wall. after four years and all of the talk of the wall from the trump administration they only ended up building 450 miles worth of wall. most of it being replacement barriers and secondary barriers. it is the most recent dhs figures. that is not going to be happening anymore. there's a question of how long it will take to stop. the trump administration did have contracts with different people. we are in the middle of land negotiations about areas they could continue building.

if it is a few miles more or less it is kind of a debate right now going on. definitely not part of his agenda. host: margin is calling in from massachusetts. you are on with sabrina rodriguez. caller: good morning, thank you for taking my call. appreciate c-span. one of the things that i find really confusing about this entire debate is that we have a legal immigration system. it basically allows one million plus people in annually. then we also have another system which is of you legal aliens. i know we call them undocumented immigrants. this has been going on the last several years.

back in 1980 when ronald reagan was president, we were throwing around that 11 million figure. we are still throwing that around. i don't believe it. we live in an age of competing narratives and competing facts. if we simply enforced our legal immigration system we would not need a wall. this is the trouble with this debate right now. host: before we go to our guest, you mentioned the ability to -- 11 million figure, what do you believe? caller: i believe the figure is a lot larger than that. we don't have the political will in this country to address the issues properly. we are not actually using the right language. we need to call people who call

people who come into the country illegally illegal. guest: one thing that is interesting that struck me from what you were saying was the biden administration plan, one of the things they want to change is u.s. immigration law. the word is typically alien for a non-us citizen. they want to change that to say noncitizen in u.s. -- in u.s. immigration law. that is a nugget in the language of the terminology around all this. in terms of the numbers, i cannot debate with you on what the exact number is. i have not gone that -- gone out and counted every undocumented immigrant. there is a question of if the 11 million is an accurate number at this point. there's different estimates about 5 million undocumented

essential workers that has been a point of discussion. part of the biden administration's plan right now is definitely figuring out how to improve the system. clearly the u.s. immigration system is not working. the u.s. immigration system is not working. some people will call it broken. some people will say it never worked. part of it is figuring out how to smoothly do illegal migration. right now, people spend years in backlogs. if you have a family member and you are applying to become -- to meet with them legally with united states government it is eight years. it is a huge backlog, lengthy wait time. certain countries have caps that then complicates it for certain people trying to go through a legal route. part of the biden plan is not

only a pathway to citizenship for undocumented migrants that are already here but figuring out how to smooth out that process. if you are trying to come to the united states illegally, you have -- legally, you have family here, have smooth -- secured a job it goes smoothly. but we talk about securing the border and that aspect, part of the biden administration's plan are looking at this optimistically. they are saying when biden was vice president he was very involved in issues with central america. he made that one of his projects while he was in the obama administration. it was later in the administration so we didn't necessarily get to see the results. it was figuring how to stop these root causes. a lot of these people are coming from el salvador, guatemala, where the situation in the country is unstable and not safe.

figuring out ways to tackle that violence or corruption and helping these country so people don't feel the need to come here. this has been going on for decades. this is not new. it is very comprehensive proposal that if he accomplishes it could make a difference. host: richie, you are on the air, go ahead. caller: i'm not sure how anybody could say the biden policies aren't causing a rush to the borders. these caravans that are coming through. as soon as he was inaugurated the rush came. his policies, his language about the campaign was clearly about the border wall not working, come on. anytime you have a barrier it works. it makes them harder -- makes it

harder for them to come in. president trump lifts a ban to europe. president biden put that band back on but lifts the band from muslim countries and the border during a pandemic. those things just don't make much sense to me. one policy is looking to change is using the word alien. we have a major immigration policy problem. american people look at that and say what are we doing here. host: thank you for calling. a lot of different points there. speak first to the the so-called caravans. what is the reality right now with those groups of folks coming up to our border? what is the administration had to say about that group? guest: the biden administration

so far, their public messaging is definitely discouraging people. they want to change the asylum process that the trump administration in collaboration with the mexican government established. they want to change the system but that will take a long time. they are trying to figure out how to dissuade people from coming. they are obviously going to the harsh conditions of traveling through central america, through mexico and they won't be able to come in or there is not a humane, fair, however you want to describe it. there's not a system in place at this moment to handle that capacity. they won't be coming into the united states. just the reality of the policy currently in place. to your point on the issue of safety and we are in a pandemic.

one thing biden has not established yet, it called title 42. this order that was issued by the cdc that allows border patrol officials -- a migrant that is crossing the border, even if they are an asylum seeker, children, they could immediately get booted out of the country. that right now is still in place. technically speaking if a migrant comes through they could be sent back immediately. the biden administration had a call the night before inauguration where they were asked about this. they said they will have something to say in the very near future. it is possible they will roll it back or keep it in place.

at this moment it is still in place. that goes to the question of safety and security at the border. to your point about the border wall. the u.s.-mexico border is 1954 miles long. the trump administration accomplished about 450 miles of border wall. specifically only 50 were new where there anything before. it is not the only way to get things done speaking logistically. 450 miles to a 1954 mile-long border, there are plenty of ways to get it in regard of -- get in regardless of a border wall. here's the headline in usa today. white house to improve visitor screening. what is the reaction been to this move so far? guest: democrats, immigrant

advocates, and human rights advocates have definitely been pleased with the decision. i can't speak to the necessary details. how it will be impacted especially in a pandemic when we are trying to dissuade people from traveling here. this muslim ban has obviously been regarded as a human rights violation. they are moving quickly on that. host: a little bit more reaction to all of this before we get back to your calls. here is mitch mcconnell, the senate republican leader. we will follow this with the new press secretary being asked about working with congress. sen. mcconnell: this was not the day one the american workers

deserved. this would got and enforced america's laws while creating new incentives for people to rush here illegally at the same time. this kind of failed approach and privilege powerful entrance ahead of american workers. >> there has been a lot of efforts to do any form of immigration reform. what we are hopeful is this will be a moment of reset and a moment to restart on capitol hill. there are already a number of cosponsors. there are experts on immigration who have worked on this issue on both sides of the aisle. historically, it is an issue that there is bipartisan support, support from the community, support from a range of outside groups with different political tilt. we are hopeful that will help

propel it forward. host: we look at the hill betrothed that number, 60, that is the number to pretty much move any legislation. assuming the filibuster remains in place, that is in question because they are working out details. what are the prospects for passage of president biden's plan or at least elements of his plan in the senate? guest: i am not the most optimistic person on that front. that is kind of a shared view when you talk to senators at this point. i mentioned senator bob menendez. he is overseeing the effort on the senate side of bidens built. he acknowledged it will be difficult. he had a call yesterday where he said he felt optimistic that the biden administration was going to put a lot of effort into getting this done.

the realities are the numbers are not necessarily on the democrat side even though they have the majority because they would need about 10 republicans to get involved if every democrat were to vote for it. there are some targeted republicans that they would hope would get involved. people like senators romney, murkowski, collins. that does not add up to 10 at this point. it seems much more probable. it is possible to do maybe dhaka but at this moment he didn't feel that comprehensive immigration reform was going to happen. something to secure a pathway to citizenship, secure the daca program the obama administration did legalize was possible. there might be pieces for a piecemeal approach of getting things done. there's a question of the relief

package. you could put a pathway for essential workers who have been involved. now getting a big build on, if it happens naturally it is not in the immediate future. host: tom, we are talking immigration here, go ahead. caller: what concerns me is the fact that building the wall around the u.s. was about stopping that. they built the wall completely around congress to protect them. it was put up immediately. those to prevent the person from breaking the wall and going into congress. this is my concern. why not protect the u.s.. we have this covid virus.

that concerns me whether these people from honduras and all are bringing the virus or some variant of it to the u.s. host: thanks for calling. guest: that is definitely a big concern that is shared right now. we have the pandemic going on. beyond concerns about if you should come to the united states legally or not. at this point, one thing is if you are coming through the u.s.-mexico border and the northern border, it is close to non-essential travel. first and foremost, it is not that any mexican citizen could cross the border and come shopping in the united states or anything like that. every month they have been renewing this. the cdc ordered to keep the

borders closed on that front. there are people still traveling on planes of course. there are plenty of americans who have gone to cancun to party, and there's plenty of talk if they're taking coronavirus to mexico by doing that. but in terms of the my grants that can frumming -- coming from central america twell tell twell -- we've seen different waves of caravans throughout the trump administration. it was expected that a new administration, different rhetoric, would prompt, you know, a new wave of that, with some optimism that they'd be able to get. in but because of the way that the asylum process is and the backlog right now, it's not that someone that comes to the border right now will be able to get into the united states. it remains that, you know, they have to go through a process. and there's a backlog in all of that. so, it's not an immediate concern or immediate threat, concern of safety and such. host: sabrina rodriguez, you also write in "politico," biden

officials would not offer specifics on a price tag or timeline for that increased technology and infrastructure at the border. topics that have come up several times this morning. saying part of it depends on decisions to come from biden's pick to lead the department of homeland security. wanted you to explain what's going on there and especially the hold on this nomination, but first let's hear from the nominee, mr. mayorkas. ests asked at his senate confirmation hearing about the border wall. >> when i served as the deputy secretary and i met with the border patrol, both ated headquarters and in the field, along the southern border, what i heard from the border patrol was that we need a diverse approach to border security. that in some instances a physical barrier would be effective, but that in other instances more boots on the

ground would assist and yet in other circumstances, the use of technology, the use of air and marine assets would be most effective. and i look forward to studying the challenges at the border and developing a sophisticated approach to meet those challenges, to be sure that we're harnessing innovation and technology to the best of our ability. host: to our guest, what do you make of that back and forth there, those comments by the nominee, and why has senator hawley of missouri put a hold on a quick confirmation for the d.h.s. secretary? guest: yeah, you know, ultimately the hold comes down to politics. ultimately, you know, senator hawley is unable to block him from actually becoming the d.h.s. secretary. he will be becoming the secretary, there will be a vote. but he basically halted the

quick process. the idea was, and the hope was from the biden administration that on day one they would get to confirm mayorkas because protecting the country from external threats and national security threats was a focus and a concern from day one. he slowed down the process and it will probably be another week before mayorkas is formally voted on and confirmed to his position. and to the point of what's happening at the border and border security and such, the way that the biden administration is discussing this is they want mayorkas to be confirmed, be already sitting in his office so he can take a look at budgets, take a look at how things have been handled and formulate a plan on how to better tackle border security. a big piece of that is the technology aspect and figuring out, you know, having -- there's plenty of, you know, i am not an expert on technology

by any means, but figuring out better screening process, scanning technology that can help with not only -- it's not only about people coming into the united states, but making sure that they're keeping out narcotics or they're keeping out all these drugs, weapons, things like that. and figuring out a better process to stop that, to be able to identify this when it's coming through the border, whether it's their land ports of entry or through trains or through planes. but being able to have a better system. and they want him to be in place to identify a plan. to device a plan and one thing that democrats and republicans have agreed on when it comes to mayorkas is just the fact that he has a long history at this department and under the trumped a station -- trumped a -- trump administration, there were a lot of people in the d.h.s. secretary role that didn't have that much experience or were there in an

active capacity. so having someone that is confirmed in that seat will hopefully improve the process and just kind of improve planning and such in the department. host: we have about 10 minutes left with our guest. call now from steve in anaheim, california. republican. good morning, steve. caller: good morning. good morning, c-span. your guest is wrong. the experts went in front of congress and told them to fix the immigration problem. it was going to cost $32 billion. this would include a wall that would funnel people into processing centers, which they would have to build. then they'd have to build holding centers and hospitals where they could organize the system to bring people in and at the same time free up the courts that are overwhelmed with all the cases that they have to oversee.

instead of having to spend -- send helicopters, people walking around on the ground with a.t.v.'s, looking for people that won't be found, the purpose of the wall was never to stop immigration, it was to stop people from going to areas that they clearly were going to die. that was the purpose of a wall. i watched al green talk to one of the experts there, the woman chaffs in -- that was in charge, and berate her on c-span for over an hour and then come on the next day and brag about how he belittled her. host: steve, thank you for calling. let's get a response from our guest. guest: we have not disagreeing on a question of there should be no barriers or anything like that. we've always historically had barriers at the border and that has been part of the strategy. i think the biden administration, just given their -- there was a lot of loaded rhetoric, everyone can agree on, there was a lot of

loaded rhetoric on both sides and everything, dealing with the border wall and what that meant and all of that. but there always has been barriers at the border. and i think what's now being put forth by the biden administration is having an approach that includes more technology, that includes better training for border patrol officers, you know, there's a question of once you become a border patrol, ensuring that they know about the latest technology, they know about the latest safety protocols, especially with a pandemic going on and just promoting their safety. so there is going to be money put toward that aspect of training, there is going money toward technology. at this moment they've stopped the border wall, they've stopped the construction of it, which sounds to be obviously one of your concerns. but there is going to be funding and planning on how to have a comprehensive approach at the border. it's not just a wall but obviously there will remain

barriers, there's barriers for hundreds and hundreds of miles, they have existed before and itland it to exist -- and will continue to exist. to keep the migrants that were coming safe and not in these harsh conditions. although we have seen obviously plenty of cases of them having -- not being safe when they're coming into the country. host: and we have mayo on the line from california. democratic caller. good morning. caller: good morning. i've been dealing with this stuff. my dad deals with this immigration stuff. he's worked here, he's been here since he was 16 from mexico. he's paid taxes his whole life and worked in this country and his immigration status got messed up. i'm saying, it sounds good, you know, that joe biden wants to pass immigration, but it's never begun to happen. because social security's already in trouble. if they were to pass this bill big, it would never -- it would break the back of social

security. there's so many immigrants here. it's not 11 million. it's more like 20 million in the shad osaka. my dad has paid money into this economy and this system. they keep saying the immigrants get food stamps and medical. that's a lie from the devil. i'm going to tell you right now. that's a lie from the devil. i don't know where they believe in that. i've been to the social service office. they can get emergency medic health if something happens to them. my dad deals with a lot of medical problems. we're going through immigration lawyers right now. but it would break the back of social security. that's a lie from biden. i voted democrat because i don't like donald trump, but i don't believe in boyd's immigration policy, it can -- biden's immigration policy, it can never happen it. would break the back of social security, they know it. host: that's for calling. let's hear from our guest. guest: to your point, immigrants in this country are paying taxes and that's one aspect of this. there are plenty of taxpayers in this country that don't have citizenship or don't have green cards, necessarily. and in terms of the realities

of getting it done. like i mentioned before, it will take in the senate 60 votes to get this done. that's 10 republicans that have to get involved. that's assuming that every republican, including moderates and more progressives and everything in between, will support it. i am not personaly the most optimistic on congress getting things done. i think anyone that's in washington or anyone that follows congress is fully aware of the challenges of getting anything done, especially at a big level. it does seem very possible that they can get done smaller things like daca. there's a pretty widespread agreement that the deferred action for childhood arrivals, that there needs to be a pathway for them, having grown up in this country, having been back and forth for years in terms of legislation. i mean, there was an interest in getting this done years ago, legalizing dreamers. there's still an interest in

doing that. it's very possible that they can get things done on a smaller scale and not this big grand bill. but it seems that there is going to be a big push regardless to get it done. host: here's a text from baltimore. i think people should be more angry at the business owners who hire illegal immigrants, since they are the ones who are encouraging them. is anyone going after the business owners? so, sabrina, does the biden bill, president biden's bill, or orders address business owners? guest: at this point there's definitely some talk about increasing penalties for employers that are violating labor laws. not just in the aspect of hiring and document -- undocumented workers, but then also exploiting them and there's some question of, you know, increasing the penalties there. there's not a ton of details out yet or at least that i have read through. but definitely getting labor agencies more involved in this reality that we see in plenty

of companies across the country. host: there's also a viewer from new jersey who texts this morning, something is always -- has always bothered me about this debate. instead of americans having this never-ending debate, why aren't the governments of countries where illegal immigrants are coming from held more accountable? they don't even seem to be part of the conversation. it sort of speaks to you what mentioned earlier about the president wanting to get to the root causes and actually go gown into -- down into central america and places like that, to try to deal with the issue there. guest: yeah. there was one point during the trump administration where out of the frustration about so many people coming through the boarder from central america, the trump administration said, it's going to cut off aid to these countries. migration experts say that's not the answer because it's only going to worsen the situation in this country -- in those countries specifically. a lot of it's taking place in specifically el salvador, guatemala, honduras, those are the three big focuses when it

comes to migration patterns. but there is a question of how do you improve the conditions in these countries so that people do not feel the need to come to the united states. again, i think a caller earlier that i was saying, this has been going on for decades. this is not necessarily new. we've seen it under the trump administration, under obama, under bush. it's not a partisan issue. it's not -- everyone is dealing with this issue that's coming from central america. so there will be a question of how to get these countries more involved, how to build out a relationship and build out a situation where conditions are improving. that obviously did not happen under the trump administration. although trump administration officials did have plenty of conversations with mexico, with these central american countries it. just seems that the biden administration will potentially take a different approach in working with them. host: one last call from

daniel. back to california again. independent. caller: hi. thanks for taking my call. i don't know when we became such a cruel, mean country and, you know, what it's going to take for us to learn again or to learn how to open our hearts . these are human beings. i mean, your guest is absolutely correct. the idea that this isn't a new phenomenon, i mean, people have been migrating for as long as we've been people. millions of years. or since we came down out of the trees, we've been on the move. and that's not going to change because some 250-year-old country decides to pass a law or build a wall. people have been moving around the planet and we're going to continue to move around the planet and we need to, you know, we need to grow up. and -- we need to grow up and

become people again and recognize that these are our fellows, these are our brothers and sisters, and we need to be good to them. so i guess you could call me one of those whacky open-border kind of people or something like that. because countries are pretty new and i don't think we really have the right to decide who gets to go where. host: all right, daniel, thank you for calling. one last thought from our guest, sabrina rodriguez, including the future prospects of the biden administration's legislation here. guest: yeah, so, you know, to your point, the biden administration, its immigration plan is not just thinking about immigration. it's part of them trying to position themselves as the united states under trump is not the united states under

biden. and there's going to be a more humane system, there's going to be a more fair system. they're not going to speak about people from other countries in the way that necessarily former president trump and his administration did. so this is also part of just messaging. this is part of the way that i mentioned the nugget about changing the language from alien to noncitizen, things like that, that will hopefully make the world look at the united states differently, after the reputation was arguably tarnished under the trump administration for some of his rhetoric or his relationship with other countries. the prospect of this bill in its current form, going through congress, is low. there will of course, if there is some interest in getting this done, if there is a concerted push from the biden administration, as it seems at this point, and that's what they're saying and how they're talking about it, there will

have to be negotiations and there is talk about biden is good at that. biden has more of a moderate -- as more of a moderate is good at that. biden with his longstanding relationships on capitol hill is good at that. the reality is obviously this is 2021. we've seen a lot of moments of tension between republicans and democrats. i don't know that is necessarily going to change. but there is going to be a concerted effort to change this immigration system. and even if it doesn't happen in law, there is an effort to just change the tone at the homeland security department. host: we will see how it plays out in the months and perhaps years ahead. sabrina rodriguez, "politico" who werer, thank you very much for joining us and -- reporter, thank you very much for joining us andviewers.

>> journalist sarah frier is the author of this new book, "no filter: the inside story of instagram." when was instagram started, and by who? sarah: it is crazy to think about, but about a decade ago was when instagram was started, and it transformed our lives so much in the meantime. it was started by these two men who had gone to stanford and tried a lot of different t