. and listen on the c-span radio app. " continues. host: kevin kuhlman, vice president of national federation of independent business is joins us now -- businesses joins us not. guest: represent 300,000 small businesses across the country, we advocate in washington, d.c. and all 50 states. we are research-backed organization and we depend on the voice and the survey information of our survey members. host: president biden has

proposed $1.9 trillion in covid economic aid. for our viewers, he wants $1400 in direct payments, topping off the $600 payments in december. $400 a week in unemployment insurance supplement on top of what the state provides through september. he was an eviction moratorium until december until september -- until september. a $15 an hour minimum wage, expanded sick leave for workers, and tax credits for families with children. how would this help small businesses? guest: president biden did a good job of articulating the importance of small businesses to the national economy and their communities. they hold communities together,

sponsoring little league teams and employing half of the workforce. to that end, he proposed around $50 billion for small businesses, $15 billion which would be for equitable grants. $35 billion would be leveraged into 175 million small business loans. we need more details but we are encouraged by that. however, we are concerned that some of the other provisions may harm or stifle the fragile small business economic recovery that includes doubling the minimum wage to $15 an hour, expanded pay leave, as well as enforcements on workplace safety. host: what is the state of the small business in america right now? guest: the state is not good according to a recent monthly

survey. small business optimism to below historic levels. we have a historically bad to in september -- in september -- in december working towards january. that was taken before congress passed the economic aid act at the end of december. february we should have january figures, we will see if that proved. that did provide additional financial assistance and tax benefits for small businesses. it is still very concerning as coronavirus cases increase throughout the country and the vaccine will let seems to have stumbled in recent days. host: how many small businesses do you think would tap into the $15 billion in grants to help small businesses and $35 billion for small business finance programs? is that enough money?

you think a lot of small businesses will be tapping into it? guest: before we get to the next proposal, i think we have to figure out how many businesses are tapping into the second round of paycheck protection which is more targeted than the first round. it is for people with 300 -- less than 300 employees and 8 -- that will be telling to see how many businesses tap into that second round. there were five point 2 million businesses that tapped into the first round -- 5.2 million businesses that tapped into that first round. we hope the rollout is more smooth than the first. that information will tell us how many may tap into the proposal of the american rescue plan joe biden has proposed.

he says he wants one million grants, or grants to one million small businesses. host: we are going to divide the lines this morning by small business owners and small business employees and then all others. if you own a small business, your line is 202-748-8000. if you're a small business employee, 202-748-8001. all others dial in at 202-748-8002. we will go to judy in west virginia, republican. caller: i did not vote for biden and harris, but i honor the choice that they are our president and vice president. i did vote for trump. on the new stimulus they're trying to pass, how's that going to helphost: kevin, she is askit

seniors. i'm not sure this is a question for you. do you have any thoughts? kevin: the proposal would contain an increase in economic impact payments, those checks to add-on to the $600 passed in december. it would add $1400 to bring the sum to $2000. i wish i could tell you more about if there was targeted aid toward seniors, but you are right, i've been focusing on the small business provisions. i would highlight those increased economic impact payments may be helpful. host: when you increase those stimulus checks to seniors and others in america, have you seen that it helps small businesses? that people spend that money at small businesses?

kevin: time will tell. i think there is a bit of lag. that is the thought. you provide targeted funding to those individuals who needed and will spend it, that may stimulate the economy and may stimulate the small business half of the economy. there are other variables to that one. we have state-mandated slowdowns or shutdown orders. those are beginning to be lifted. we think that will help. overall consumer confidence. consumers need to be confident to spend the money that is a part of those stimulus checks and have the experience in the service economy for small businesses to benefit. as consumer confidence builds and people go out and be more comfortable spending that money that will help the small business half of the economy and help small business optimism increase. host: len is in california, what

is your business? caller: i have a small gas station. at some point this debt is going to come due, and the first rollout was a disaster. i'm not sure this one will be any better. it just seems likely government rolls out one failed program after another. i know economists get excited because it stimulates the economy, but it's all based on artificial stimulation. at some point this debt is going to come due, and as a small business owner we are pretty fiscally responsible or else we would not be open. i've been in business for over 40 years. i'm not that excited about this even if i may qualify for some. host: why do you say the first rollout was a disaster? caller: [laughter] because of the people got it

that shouldn't have gotten it and people that needed it didn't get it. by the second day of being open your bank is running and taking any small business that -- is not taking small business applications anymore and you couldn't get a hold people in offices to talk to. the system was completely overwhelmed. that was my experience. host: kevin? kevin: thank you for that. i think we heard from many members about the initial rollout and having problems. that initial round of funding ran out within two weeks. there were many small businesses that were locked out. over the summer congress did give more money to the program and that certainly did help. when the program expired in august there was still around $150 billion left in the program. our research says that demand was met.

people needed on additional round. increasing the flexibility of the program which congress did over the summer really help to improve it. i think after overcoming those obstacles the paycheck protection program did deliver on benefits. we find ourselves in this round to at this point in time. it is our hope that there were lessons learned from the first round when there were those hiccups in the rollout and when the money was exhausted quickly. congress did work on that by targeting it and as small businesses, having pools of funds reserved specifically for businesses with fewer than 10 employees, i think that helps this round. we shall see. many of our members did share your frustrations early on, and many of our members do share your frustration on the debt and the deficit right now.

that is certainly a concern. we just need to get -- small businesses need to get through this challenging phase to the other side when the economy was humming like it was over one year ago and the small business economy was thriving. host: delina in florida. what do you do? caller: i work in the restaurant industry. i am 63 years old. my hours have been cut from 35 hours to week to 15 hours a week. i had to get a second job. my question is, are small businesses like this going to be able to get money out of this new program and is it going to be grants so they can help their employees or will it be loans? kevin: thank you for the question. we still need to figure out more details about what is in

president biden's proposal. it sounds like he has a combination of grants and loans. looking back to what congress passed at the beginning of december, that allowed for the second round of targeted paycheck protection loans. they are loans, but they are forgivable. they turn into grants. what congress did at the end of the year is they improved the interaction between the paycheck protection program and some of the other programs that were enacted last year. that includes sometimes forgiveness was reduced if a business took out a paycheck protection program loan and an economic injury disaster loan grant. congress said those interact better and businesses could take advantage of both and the forgiveness would not be reduced. there was also a program called

the employee retention tax credit. last year a business could not take advantage of the paycheck protection program and the in ploy a retention tax credit. in that december law congress fixed it so businesses could wretchedly -- retroactively take advantage of both programs. that should help with cash flow as well. that is also an improvement that did occur. tomorrow nfib is hosting a webinar. you can find that at nfib.com /webinars. there are things business owners are not aware of because they were not available until recently. host: that inspired a viewer to text us and asked, pleased to find business. kevin: there are many different definitions of small business. to be an nfib member you cannot be publicly traded company, but

the vast majority of our members have fewer than 20 employees. the small business definition or eligibility for the second round of the paycheck protection program loan is fewer than 300 employees. if you go across the federal government there are many different definitions and those increase with every new program. host: dennis in franklin, north carolina. what's your business? caller: i'm an outdoor vendor. as i talk about the definition of small businesses, i think we need to do away with this idea of how many employees it is and look at the amount of revenue, both gross and net. you can have 100 employees at a software company and make hundreds of millions of dollars,

and certainly not be a small business the way a cafe down the street with 10 employees is. and it seems to me in this last package most of the money went to those kinds of large businesses with large grosses and large nets. the smaller ones got very little out of it. i am curious your comments on that and thank you for taking my call. kevin: that's a great point. there are many different conditions of small businesses and often times they rely on the employee count. it is rough, it is not accurate to your point in many circumstances based on revenue, but either way whether you choose the revenue definition or employee definition there will be those who view it as almost

picking winners and losers. that is an unfortunate circumstance. i think the second round of paycheck protection program loans which were enacted as part of the law passed at the end of december tried to get at both of those issues. they say one you have an employee threshold of fewer than 300 employees and to you have a revenue test. you must have a reduction of 25% of your gross receipts and ache -- in the calendar quarter of 2020 relative to 2019. this is not perfect. someone suffering a 20% revenue loss or 24% revenue loss is probably struggling and they would view that as unfair. however you target a program there are going to be winners and losers. the goal is to target to those businesses that may need the most. to your point on recipients who

received loans and maybe should not have in the first round i will say that the larger the loan generally meant the more employees, you could only use the loan on certain expenses, 60% had to go to payroll and 40% could go to rent and mortgage interest and other limited business expenses. this new round, the eligibility is slightly broader and includes personal protective equipment and other things. the goal is to targeted more in the second round. we do not know yet what president biden's proposal and how it will target. we look forward to learning more about that. host: in sulfur, louisiana. what business do you own? caller: i own a very small construction business. host: go ahead. caller: when we got a grant

during the last paycheck protection program loa -- rollout, we applied for a loan, but we were denied. we got a letter saying our credit score was not high enough , for which i try to keep my business out of debt as much as possible. we had a very low income during the previous year on our tax returns. because of the hardships that we went through the previous year in 2020 we were only showing that we had $5,000 worth of actual income. we were denied and some of my employees were laid off during the pandemic. i was unable to bring employees back on and i wasn't able to take care of myself and family. we had to rely on unemployment and stimulus checks that were not there.

is there going to be anything with this next paycheck protection program that's going to help those who are truly struggling and poor? kevin: masculine question? did you apply through fba or a bank or credit union? caller: through a credit union. a bank actually. they wouldn't allow me to do that through the bank so i had to go directly to fba. kevin: there were two different programs in the cares act and those two different programs remain. what i think you applied for was an fba economic injury disaster loan. that is more truly alone, it's a 30 year term with a 3.75% interest rate and it does have to be paid back. i think the bank directed you towards the fba and they deny

more of the economic injury disaster loans based on previous revenue that may be the paycheck protection program has. i would encourage you to take a second look at the paycheck protection program. you can apply for the first one if you did not apply for the second one and it seems he would be able to demonstrate that you had the required revenue loss based on your payroll. i would encourage you to take a second look on that. the loans after the end of extend -- extended federal pandemic unemployment compensation within a supplemental $300 per week through the end of march. another program to look at. then there are these expanded grants, these grants called the advanced emergency grants, and you may apply for those, we are

still figuring out more details. if you live in what is considered a low income census tract and can demonstrate a 30% revenue loss at some point of last year which sounds like you might be able to do, that's another one, a grant of up to $10,000 for businesses. take a second look at the paycheck protection program. there is the extended unemployment insurance that was included in the december law and finally there were the advanced emergency grants of up to $10,000 for businesses located in certain areas, these are certain programs i would recommend looking into. host: does that answer your question or do you have a follow-up? caller: it does answer a portion of my question. i just hope that what he is

saying is going to be helpful. i hate to be disappointed again. it's hard to -- it's hard to -- it's hard to see companies take in millions and millions of dollars from the paycheck protection program that was supposed to help people who are struggling. to watch them not bring back their employees, not help those employees who are in need because they want to save that money as much as they can for their own purposes, and the struggling companies who would gradually help struggling employees who they know how they feel. kevin: i totally agree with you. it has been a very trying time over the past year, and we want to help businesses like you. that's what nfib's mission has

been over the past year. it's long been our mission for 77 years to help small business owners and advocate on behalf of their interest to own, protect, and grow their businesses. we've especially had a focus on our core mission and helping small businesses during the pandemic. i'm going to encourage you to email info@nfib.com we've been responding to questions at that inbox and we would love to learn more about your situation and how we may be able to help. we recommend you visit nfib.com. you can find our coronavirus resources to provide more information about these programs. i know it's a lot but the good news is that there are options. the problem is that the more options there are the more computing it gets. -- confusing it gets.

this program is tate -- catered towards separate businesses. we recognize many businesses are still suffering and we want to be a resource for businesses to help them get through the pandemic and grow and thrive. host: paul is next from texas. good morning to you. caller: i was just wondering if the philosophy of trickle-down economics has heard or helped small businesses, and do you think we will ever get back to laissez-faire capitalism? kevin: i don't know quite how to answer your question. i guess our focus right now is helping our members get through the pandemic and get through to the other side. i don't have an answer for you on specifically your question on laissez-faire economics. host: we will go on to edward in

grantville, georgia. caller: yes, i'm calling, i'm a small business owner. i run a small kennel and i'm a dog trainer. during the first cares act i didn't qualify because i didn't have any employees for any assistance. then the state unemployment set i qualified, but i draw small pension -- i lost thousands of dollars from march to july. i just won a get started again. something with all these states, responsible for seeing these people get the money. kevin: that's an excellent question. i think many ran into that situation as well. the cares act did give -- it

might've been the family's first coronavirus response act did give state unemployment agencies money to improve their operations, but those state unemployment agencies were overwhelmed and in fact a lot of their software goes back to 1970's technology. they were unfortunately not prepared, many were not prepared for the demand that came through. it's my hope that they might have used that money to improve their system. i don't know whether they have, i understand that any sort of appeal would be extremely frustrating from that regard and many people were on phone lines for hours only to get hung up on . state unemployment insurance agencies were very stressed. it was good to see that small business owners or self-employed individuals could be eligible for unemployment insurance

perhaps for the first time. i apologize that your particular situation ran into trouble. i don't have the answer for that. the other concern on the uninsurance employment from a small business owner perspective is many of the state unemployment trust funds have been taxed or exhausted and had to borrow meaning they have to pay it back. our concern is as small businesses try to grow out of the pandemic that they may be hit on the backside with significant unemployment insurance tax increases. if congress is going to give money to state and local governments we are advocating that money go to prevent tax increases on small businesses. host: ed in titusville, florida. caller: good morning, i appreciate your program. why do businesses want to socialize losses and capitalize

profits? the reason is it feathers their nest. what we should be doing is enhanced employment benefits, not giving money to any size business owners, and that would spur demand. you touched on that earlier, greta. the big problem is, he just touched on unemployment insurance for businesses. for a long time they sought to take people off employment tax rules and classify as unemployed -- independent contractors, consultants, what have you, workmen's comp. and on that uta tax. now he wants people to bail them out on that. the issue is they shouldn't be loans -- they shouldn't be grants, they should be loans to businesses. if they don't have enough capital to secure it personally

other businesses will take care of that. classify people as employees and have robust employment insurance and that will take care of things. host: your response? kevin: we just talked about how many unemployment insurance systems are overwhelmed. from a small business owner perspective the number one problem with small businesses is finding qualified employees. the logic behind the paycheck protection program and those forgivable loans was for businesses to hang on to employees for as long as possible and not overwhelm the unemployment system both the employee benefits by continuing to receive a paycheck and not having that be disrupted and the small business owner is benefited. they don't have to lose an employee they trained. there is concern about further overwhelming unemployment insurance systems, there is some mutual benefit to the employee and employer to keep them on payroll.

i push back and say that the vast majority of businesses do treat their employees says w-2s and not 1099s. host: daniel in new jersey. what's your business? caller: i am a small farmer. i have a small farm, i am the employee unless i hire somebody part-time. i don't know where that would fall in. the farm is preserved, in perpetuity you cannot build houses on it. you have a set amount you have to recover each year to qualify for the tax reduction that you receive. however, this year, very few people -- we are the garden state where the tomatoes or anything, i guess because of the pandemic. it is a very i guess you would call it small business.

when i read on the website, i'm 63, i'm a veteran. i really don't know all these ins and outs. i did get to hear another fellow who was a mechanic who owns a shop who basically received $60,000 and bought a new truck and invested in a new home. it rubs me wrong. what have you got for me in that? kevin: if someone used one of these paycheck protection program loans to invest in a home and buy a truck, that loan would not be forgiven, those are not qualified expenses for the paycheck protection program loans. you have to do 60% towards payroll and the 40% could go for rent, utilities, mortgage interest. you can't use the loan for those purposes, and that individual may struggle on the forgiveness

side. i know for farmers there was some difficulty with the program when it first opened. they have made some revisions to the program, i understand it still may not be perfect for farmers, but farmers are supposed to be able to use the paycheck protection program loans if -- there are caps on how much can be paid to themselves but i would encourage you to look into that program. that's the thing that comes to mind at this time. host: mary in texas. mary, good morning to you. what do you do for a living? caller: i own an automotive shop. host: go ahead with your question or comment. caller: my first question is, we've been in business for 41 years, and we have paid our

employees with 1099s and w-2s. the first round of ppp, they did not allow us to use our 1099 or our payroll records showing that we actually paid folks. my question is, on this second round, would we be able to use our 1099s as well as our w three showing that we paid employees? kevin: these questions are best directed at your bank or your lender, because they can answer specifically. eligibility, when you take into account your payroll you cannot use 1099s or independent contractors. it is only those w-2 employees that are eligible. unfortunately you would not be able to use your 1099s for that. on the very specific paperwork that might be necessary or could

be incorporated in the calculations i would encourage you to ask your lender about that specifically. your lender may not be participating in this second round. there are certain online lenders that have been helpful as well so i would encourage folks to take a look at those options. host: kevin, thank you for the conversation. our viewers and learn more. thank you again.

r this hour-long event. >> i am the director of education policy at the american institute. delighted to have all of you with us today for this conversation. how should schools expand federal covid-19 eight? what federal aid? we will talk about that, how much we are talking about, and the difference it will make.