tuesday morning, the white house budget director nominee testifies at a confirmation hearing. it is the first of two confirmation hearings for her this week since two committees have jurisdiction over the office of management and budget. watch her testimony to the senate homeland security and governmental affairs committee live at nine: 15 a.m. eastern on c-span three. online at c-span.org, or listen live on the free c-span radio app. >> joining us this >> washington" continues. host: joining us is the m garrett. he is a former neo-nazi and kkk leader. good morning. thanks for being on "washington journal" this morning? guest: good morning. thank you for having me. host: before we get to your journey, tell us about your

ground, where you grew up. your early years. guest: i am born and raised in germany, born in 1975. very conservative times. it was a lot different. born into a very small town, very conservative and protestant. 500 citizens. my parents had a drinking problem. it was a very dysfunctional family, one of those classic stories you hear from people in the white supremacist movement. a lot of kids grew up like that but not in what is becoming a neo-nazi. so the question is what happened in my life that made me go this way? it had a lot to do with identity, looking for a purpose, a sense of belonging. i was a bullied, kid, a perfect victim from bullies. it was to birdie when kids start cracking inappropriate jokes -- it was in

puberty, when kids started cracking inappropriate jokes. mostly boys doing that. boys wanting to discover their masculinity. it was also the time we started learning about the third reich and the holocaust in school. growing up in germany, i think germany has done a great job making up for the holocaust and making sure it never happens again. but we got presented the topic at the time we were looking for things. all the boys acted up. first it was jokes against immigrants, than against black people. all of a sudden they put the holocaust on the people with i think at that time, not enough discourse on it. it was anti-semitic what i did, but it was unintentionally anti-semitic because i did not do it for the sake to hate jews

because i did not know jews. i didn't know neo nazis existed. i thought they died in 1946. germans are very clear that nazis brought nothing but. host: destruction how old are you, when you are learning about neo nazis? you mentioned that you were a teenager. about how old are you now in terms of this happening? guest: this is when we talk about these jokes i was 12 or 13. i did not know anything about these organizations yet. the other boys went back to normal at one point. problem is i did not have a normal to go back to. my normal would have been getting pushed in the corner, getting pushed around. the bullied kid. so i ran with those jokes a little longer. the problem is with a certain call-old -- call-out

culture, i was put in a box as the nazi kid. nobody was looking in the box to see the human being there, there -- they were just looking at the label. i did not get out at all. the guys that put me in the box where the guys with the swastikas. a kid on the schoolyard gave me a cassette of hate music. music was one of the only things that played an important role in my life. i was hoped. the message resonated with me. host: at this time, when you think about your family life, where your parents catching on to what was going on with you? guest: my parents divorced when i was born. i happened during the divorce, so i grew up without a father figure. that was also an important part.

of a cost control model in your kids life is very important. my mom was fighting -- a constant role model in your kid's life is very important. my mom was fighting her own demons. she tried to figure out but she did not see the full extent of the problem. kids, they act up. you see it a lot on tv, or if you are a little older, you know in the 1970's, he had heavy metal and punk music. kids were acting up. all of a sudden the skinhead music -- i should point out, the original skinhead that originated in britain in the 1960's were antiracist. they were actually radicalized in the 1970's through the white power movement and the national front. so the music at first was a

little soft. it resonated. it was like, hey, they call you a nazi but you are not. this is what i felt. they also made fun about hitler's. in the 1980's, you couldn't do that. it was a too serious topics, you didn't do it. we did it. hey, i am making fun of hitler, i can't be a nazi. but it was like a self-fulfilling prophecy. with the hate music, with every cassette tape, i got more radicalized. the music got more hateful, i got more hateful, until i finally said, who are those groups? i want to know them. i found a group of skinheads that i joined at the age of 15. host: so you are with this group , and at some point you come to the united states or you become -- and you become part of the kkk. when did that happen? guest: it was actually the other way around. growing into that, age 15, age

17, i joined a far right party in germany and that is where the ideology kicked in. they told me this is not about acting up or using the symbols for provocation. it was just from looking at the age of 15, 16 -- i didn't know about it. but with the party at explaining the ideology, i started picking up nationalism, then i got to know more people in a desk more people, and it became white nationalism. with the internet, i got more connections worldwide so i became -- the white power movement came in and i became a white supremacist. and this was all in germany. still in germany in 1998. a group of kkk members asked me if i wanted to join the kkk, because that group existed in germany since the 1920's. many people do not know that. host: the kkk existed in germany since the 1920's?

guest: kkk groups existed in germany since the 1920's. they were ironically banned under hitler because he wanted to control everything. american gis brought it back to germany in the 1960's. than skinheads brought it back in the 1980's and 1990's. ever since, you have four or five kkk groups living in germany, small, but they are there. one of these groups started following me around because i became a well-known musician in the white supremacist movement, so i was doing concerts every weekend. they followed me around and asked if i wanted to join. ended up for two years in that group and then a few years later, forming my own group. until 2002, this is when the changing point came in, that i got out of the movement. host: so, let me stop you there

and make sure that our viewers know that they are welcome to call in. 202-748-8000. -- 202-748-8001, for republicans, democrats, 202-748-8002. we are talking with tm garrett, founder and ceo of change of memphis, former neo-nazi and kkk member telling us his story. you told us 2002. tell us how long you lived active in this ideology, and what was the moment, the incident that you had that sort of brought you, started to make you change? tell us about that. guest: change does not come overnight. sometimes for many, many former white supremacists, you have moments where they start thinking. but their life is still in the wrong direction, and you may

want to take action. this is a tricky part. these trigger moments, key moments exist in many people's lives better in these extremist groups. it takes a lot of courage actually to leave those groups. ultimately you need the encouragement from the society of their. the big problem we have, who is going to talk to a nazi? who likes nazis? nobody. who likes the kkk? nobody. you have to talk to somebody who you know actually hates you, many people say, probably not. so many people stay longer. it is like an abusive relationship. it is hard to start over new. i am in this movement for 15 years already. i live it, i brief at. i live in a bubble -- i breathe it. i didn't eat certain foods from southern company is because i thought they were the enemy.

i was an anti-semite, holocaust denier, all this nonsense, and i was so caught in that, you know, that i couldn't see anything else. it was a cult. you wake up with it. it is pressure, because you think, the revolution starts at anytime. or your enemy is taking over. or the police are coming in and kicking in your door. we had the group in germany, and when i was recruited, i was, like, i don't want to be in the group, i want to get away from the violence. they said, the violence is just in hollywood. we know that isn't true, but that is what they told me. they labeled it as a civil rights group for white people. of course, it is not true, but they presented it to me like, we have this powerful enemy who wants

honestly which kid doesn't want to be a super hero? give me a cape, that is great. so i could be the super hero and i wanted to do that and we recruited influential people. we have police officers that became a big scandal in germany nationwide later, and of course the government didn't like that. so they started investigating. we didn't do anything criminal but they didn't like the idea of having police officers and such. they put a lot of pressure and convinced me at some point that i will be held responsible if any of my members back then would commit a violent crime. and here's also the tricky part. committing a violent crime of course we told the members always do not commit a crimet. claiming we are not violent. if it would have been hipies, flower tower, it would not have been necessary do not commit a

crime. of course it was a hateful and violent message. we had to tell our members all the time don't do it. therefore you could have seen it wrong but i was so caught in that and i was so much under pressure and i realized i cannot control these members and i don't know what's happening and i will be held responsible. so the i was kind of pushed out by that, it was fear, and i kind of did something safe in that movement. i retired. and this is what i did first. and i was still a full-blown antismite, full blown islam fowfobe, it was one year after 9/11 and i was struggling in my head with what i was going to do without the group. at the end i decided with my family overseas that we have to move and we moved about 100 miles away. and here comes the interesting part. it was like two weeks before christmas, i was in section 8

all of a sudden because i lost my income, connected tot movement. starting over completely after 15 years back to normal, well that was my normal. it was hard. and the only -- i looked that classified, you can see how long it's been, and i picked up the phone called the number and i could hear the accent it was a turkish immigrant picking tup phone. really? please. but i started lying to myself, well let's take the apt ym. it's just temporarily and we moved in. it was a house and the landlord, he lived on the first level, we lived on the second level. of course we ran into each other, we shared the same hallway and there was a lot of interaction. and i was convinced again one year after 9/11, i was convinced all muslims are terrorists like spin, i was convinced he was wearing a mask and i would be able to unmask him at some point and expose him as the turkish muslim terrorist that i thought he

was. the problem is over what six, seven months i tried so hard and was unsuccessful and many interactions and he always brought the kinds in to me and compassion. and the things -- i couldn't unmask him because he didn't wear a mask. he really was just a nice person. i realized after many months that i was the guy wearing the mask, literally, you know? and that made me really think. i was like saying i was the dude with the bad expectations, with the bad thoughts here. it wasn't him. caller: we want to get to -- host: that's your interaction with the landlord and the apartment in germany. obviously a follower of islam and you are, this is 2002. we want to find out more -- host: about 2003 a t the time.

but we have a number of calls waiting for you. so let's get to some of those. our guest is a you've heard him tell his story of being involved in a noo nazi group with the kkk and his struggle with that. let's hear from you first up is linda. caller: i would like to thank the staff. i find that you take a very neutral role and that allows the commentors and the listeners to engage in a better way than if you as the people working there were clearly showing your colors one way or oods. so thank you for that nuletralt. and to the gentleman whose the guest also thank you to you. i have a couple questions. one was from when you first

started to realize that maybe you were on the wrong path to when you felt like you were clear of that pads path, how long a period of time was that for you? host: it was quite a long time. it doesn't happen overnight. i was leery of anybody who would change overnight realize this was wrong, i was wrong for two years, four years, eight years in my case 15 years and all of a sudden i'm a peace activist. this was something i wouldn't buy today if somebody comes to me with that story i would be very leery of that. if it's somebody who tells me i'm still struggling with this topic after one year that's what i would rather believe because radicalization happens very slowly, it is just like the steady drop, you know, that steady influence that you start to believe, that you only listen to this, only listen to these voices, only listen to this music and you're fading

out everything else. and everything else becomes like the conspiracy and the interesting part of conconspiracy seas is that if somebody bleevels in the theory that person will be part of the conspiracy. so whatever belief and you came with the truth even if it was so visible and clear you would just push it to the side. that person wants to deceive you. this is the enemy with a lie. and that was planted in my head for 15 years, slowly building up. and it took many years to get rid of everything, and i started working on certain things. in this case because of the muslim landlord my islamo phobia. so when that happened with the landlord and he actually unmasked me. he ripped off the mask off my face and i was sitting there, i would say that hate i felt it was like crumbled. what am i going to do with those crumbs? am i going to analyze them or

put them back together not love of hatred? because i'm a purist person, i thought let's find out germany has a rich muslim culture. let's find out if the other muslims in germany, if they may be terrorists and my landlord was either good in pretending or was the exception, i don't know. and i decided to just make friends. i went out there and really talked to people in the muslim community and the immigrant community rather than the street gangs that we were under or the people we didn't know. that's what i was listening to. the secret things they would do in the mosques and prepare. it was all not true, i found out, because i went out and embraced them. i wanted to know first-hand and this helped but it took many, many years, it took that probably a year to be to really get rid of all these stereo types of all these things i believed in.

host: linda you're still on the line. do you have another question? caller: yes i would like to ask one more question. relating to the coup on the capitol it seems like many of the people there are believing in stereo tipse that they've been fed which i observe to be many of them to be lies or twisted portions of fact and i've listened to a lot of interviews of people that were part of that march and what they believe in and why they were there. most of them are quoting donald trump that he lost the election by a bunch of people stealing it. so in the case of those people do you see a path out of it for them since they still adore donald trump and think he should be president? host: thanks for your question, linda. guest: as part of those people feel encouraged by the former president.

this is a fact and for some parts it wasn't a president i would have wished we would have back in the day partly. and the interesting fact of that we have here is a lot of people call these groups that were the capitol a groups that were supporting donald trump et cetera as white supremacists, like proud voice and such and such. you have many racists and white supremacists in these groups the same in the q honor movement but not only. there's something else that holds them together and that is ultra nationalism. and that of course attract as lot of white supremacists because it's exactly what they do, too. that's why it's a little tricky and you see these people who storm the capitol and you have really a wide variety of different people that were there and you try to figure out how do they fit together? because you've got -- i mean

one person got arrested, another one had a holocaust t-shirt, a holocaust denier. and you're wondering how is it possible that two people like that are in the same group? but how is it possible that people seem the opposite commit something like this try to overthrow the government here and then how does this work? but the smallest common denominater here is ultral nationalism rather than antisemitism or other things. and of course the question what they put out or the claim that the election was stolen. this is the key factor that actually brought them together and the smallest common denominater ultra nationalism and the claim the election was stolen. that brings these people together.

sometimes they cooperated with muslims, sometimes with that even though we're deniers if you had a jew who denied the holocaust we would incorporate with them too for the day. because the enemy of my enemy is n my friend if it's only that day. on that day for those people this day counted and i don't believe that any of those people went in there thought any longer what would happen tomorrow. they were drive bin these hateful messages, endorse bid certain people especially in the message boards forums, social media, where they were at and were pushed there at the end encouraged. host: let's get a call from barbara. good morning. caller: good morning i just want to tell mr. garrett that he is doing a fantastic job in this interview he is so incredibly articulate and he is painting a picture of such

depsdz and breadth that i just want to encourage him deeply to continue with whatever forium the group change is and we haven't heard about that yet, i know we will, but it brought to mind to me maybe we need to create radicalization anonymous like alcoholics anonymous and narcotics anonymous in order to give another venue of belonging for these people who want to move into. and i'm sure that's what you're thinging about what the tree you're barking up sir i see you nodding. and i just want to just tell you that in people just as presidential campaign he talked about belonging as the key thing that's missing and it was such a brilliant thing for him to do. because really the first time a politician in a national campaign brought in a psychological domain. this is all about ideaation meaning thinking and language. and speaking to yourself and others. and c-span production team i

really want to ask you please i beg you start bringing in the behavioral psychologists. we need to get dialogue between people like tm and people who have understanding psychologically of what goes on with human beings that are radicalized. host: appreciate that and appreciate you leading us into getting some information about what tm is up to with his organization with change that she asked about. guest: when i started change it was 2016 when i started change and living in memphis, african american population of about 70%, and yet a lot of protests what happened after sterling got murdered, et cetera. and a lot of people it was not as bad as it was like last year but there was gap between glack and white that seemed to be growing and i tried to build bridges. when i moved to the u.s. i had the picture of the melting pot

that was from hollywood. i thought the black cop and the white cop are best friends they go to each other's houses after work. and then i moved here and it just didn't happen. you have these two different cultures living next to each other and try to build these bridges. when i started telling my story and other people reached out to me i decided i can help people and so i started people help people getting out of extremist environments. and we also have where we cover tattoos for free to give those people a second chance. but now with the whole political radicalization where normal people, normal conservative yet radicalized this is a complete different dimension because we're talking not about the classic hate group. we're talking about radical people getting radicalized by certain things on line. i'm not judgmental because i have been there.

i know how it goes. this is why what you say is exactly what we're trying to do, the dialogue. the secret is watch dross cafeteria, like my friend says. feel encouraged to look him up. host: our viewers can get more about that at change memphis.org. let's hear from loretta in cleveland, ohio. coiveragetsdz good morning. my first question has been answered, his change or met more fass sis but i am more interested in what he thinks the racist insurrection was on january 5th. because it seems as if there are two big lies being told. the first lie is that america does not belong to white people

. and the second lie is that donald trump did not win the 2020 election. host: you've addressed it a little bit. any further comments you want to make on the capitol attack? guest: let me try to answer these i want to chime in real quick. if we ask questions who does america belong to? as a nation of immigrants this is what every white person on this continent is, is an immigrant and therefore it's a country of all immigrants. and of course it belongs to white people just as it belongs to black people just as it belongs to brown people and muslim people and sikh people and hindu people and jishe people and prution people. it is a nation for people and for immigrants. this is how it was founded. these are the core principles of the country. the second thing you ask i mean we can fight about it all day

long but i don't think this is how we can unite this country. how we can unite this country -- this is what we're talking before as well. how do we -- what do we identify as? you know? do we identify as republican and democrat? yes, i believe that the election was stolen no i don't believe the election was stolen, or do i believe that we are all americans we have to heal as a nation so we can go on and beat a dead horse, i know with the vast majority of people who believe that the election was stolen, that keep talking about this one topic that it will not lead us anywhere. we have to find the humanity in each other again, stop calling each other baby killers and racists because not all republicans are racist, not democrats are not waking up and having a lust for killing babies.

these are used by radical forces to get americans into dehumanization. i am from germany originally and germany has seen a past from overpatriotism to nationalism to white nationalism national socialist. leading to genocide. how can a whole population commit that and support genocide, that whole population was not evil, they were not like americans are not evil or whatever. they were lured into that and dehumepization was a big part of that taking humanity away from another. guest: what brought you to the united states? host: it was to dream a rich uncle in america, american culture played a big role in germany because america pardon my french kicked germany's as in world war ii but helped build up again with core values principles everything.

everything that germany represents today is what america made it. and germans appreciated that so that play add big role. music, tv, it was just fascination, that you could make it from a dish washer to a band. so i wanted to li here since i was five and it was a matter of time and in 12er it juzz just the time. there were different thing that is play add role but it was a good time, decided to start a business with a friend a music recording studio and i just moved. host: let's hear from phillip in arizona. caller: nice to meet you and see what you're talking about. what i'm worried about is everything that you're saying if everyone is saying that a trump supporter is a nazi here in america isn't that going to lead to the disarmment and taking over and kind of putting

us in the camps that exterminated everybody to begin with? i'll take my answer off line. thank you. guest: i didn't say that all that the republicans are nazis. this is what the others says. all republicans are nazis, all republicans are racists. that's what i see from the other side all democrats are baby killers, are communists. you hear those from radical forces on both sides that bring the regular american against each other and take the humanity away, because you don't see your neighbor as jeff or jill. you only ask yourself or you see a trump ter -- these are the thing that is people think now. they don't think any more do these people have children, do they worry about their children the same i do, do they worry about their income, do they love their country the same doy? when i moved here to the u.s. in 12er, guess how many people

talked about who they voted for during the last election? zero. it didn't matter. it mattered if you're a good person, if your actions defined you as a good person. not who you voted for. it was completely unimportant. this was something that changed during the last four or five, six years, drastically. host: let me ask you, gives your outside take on the way both democrats and republicans use the media to demonize each other. guest: this is what i'm saying demonize, taking your humanity away. and if you see this country how it's built up, you have like 30, 35% democrats, 30, 35 republican, 30 independents and the one whose don't fit in then you have the people radicals on each side are only percentages as well. so it's not the majority of

americans that have all these radical ideas on both sides. the majority of americans that i meet, that i talk to are from social media that i talk to in person as far as i do because of course the pandemic i'm very careful of course and i take it serious. but these people are normal people. they might be a little further right or left but they're still very moderate and reasonable people that some of those ideas but you can talk to those people. those social media and a lot of the media are just like they echo the radical ideas and it almost likes like we only have radicals on the left, on the right, and both sides say the other is not good for america. why we have a really amount of americans still in the middle we just don't see them because everybody is busy with

facebook, everybody is busy with either cnn or fox or whatever they look at for the left, right, it doesn't matter. everybody is busy with that and really human relationships, even if they don't encourage people to go out and have mass meetings or meetings during the pandemic even if you're on social media rather than go in the gratification with light and people telling you you're right you showed the person you showed the left side, right side. whatever it is. rather have a direct conversation with one person and try to get to know each other and not beat a dead horse not talk only about topics that will lead nowhere because if you have a liberal and conservative you pick topics like during the mid terms you had the border wall it would lead you nowhere it is a dead horse because you know both sides -- abortion the same thing it will lead nowhere at this point. try to find the commonalities.

because i guarantee if somebody is married, why did you choose your spouse? because of the things you agreed on or the things you disagreed on? no you built the smallest bomb you -- bond you built it on commonalities to realize how much you have in common. host: we're going to sharon in minnesota. coiveragetsdz caller: good morning. 45 negative below zero this morning. but i want to say thank you mr. garrett for telling your story. i'm like seriously in awe with you this morning. i don't know if it's ok for me to say this but i'm extremely proud of you. and most of my questions have been answered but i stuck on the line and i came up with just one other one and our u.s. intelligence agencies have said

that the biggest risk to the united states are these hate groups. so me being way up here in minnesota nowhere like what can one simple little person do to make a change? to help with this? because just going into town yesterday we saw lots of people still wearing their trump masks and wearing their stop the steal stuff and it's hard not to be angry but most of us are trying to move forward and just wondering if there's anything that the little people out here can do. and thank you so much. host: thanks. guest: thank you. you said it's so hard not to be angry. and not classifying -- let's see if i'm unmuted. sometimes it's not that important if you are wrong, you have right. you have political truth, and

person truth. what you experience for yourself is a personal truth. somebody who has a trump mask has a different personal truth. so some things are maybe true for you and for them. and fit fu sit down and talk to somebody with a main mission to convert and convince somebody will not work. again back to the smallest basic relationship we can have in a marriage for example. if you try to convince your spouse that you are right and they are wrong, what will it lead to? and for questioning yourself. it will not work. and it's the same thing. and it's hard not to be angry. on the other side. it's hard not to be angry in general as a human being and we have to differ between when i talk about unconditional love we should love all human beings despite their ideologies. you can dislike the ideology and this is the big difference. the difference between love and liking somebody. if your child comes you still love your child you may not

like it at the time but you love your child. you still sit down with your child and try to figure it out. and here is the hard part. loving somebody that you don't like at this moment. and this is the hard part. these people with the trump masks they expect, they hate him. do you really hate them or their ideology? walk over to the cafeteria, sit down ask them let's have a coffee. let's talk about the things in your life not about these dead horses necessarily. you know? that lead us nowhere. just have a conversation often we need to start showing each other respect. we lost the art of civil discourse. and this is what we need to do. sometimes listen. let the other person talk and also understanding, understanding doesn't mean you agree. somebody can put out an awful

ideology that you will be able to understand because they explain where they're coming from and it will be like oh wow i never saw it from that point but i still don't agree but i do understand you. and the other side will all of a sudden have a certain respect for you and will more likely list ton what you have to say than if you yell at each other. yelling has never changed nobody's mind. never. discourse. host: our guest, the founder and ceo of change memphis, he's also a former noo nazi member of the kkk. can you hang with us another ten minutes or so and take a couple more calls? guest: absolutely. host: let's go to terry in atlanta, georgia. caller: good morning. i called about a month ago actually it was right before we had our special election here in georgia and i don't know if

you remember i was complaining about the ads ale of the negative ads and being happy when we get past that. and low and behold look at what's happened in a month. the very next day we have our special election and there's nothing hardly about that on the news because everyone's taking about the people who stormed the capitol. well, i think this whole stop the steal would go away if one man would just admit that he lost the election. if he admits that he lost the election fairly and squarely i think that would take care of a lot of this. but mr. garrett i don't know how much you experienced real racism here in america. it does exist. i will tell you that. it has for 400 years. and i have to disagree with you that the founders had in mind that everyone was equal. if you look at the document

that's written you get that idea but then you look at other amendments to it over the years, why do we have to pass amendments to say people can vote? why do we have to pass amendments to say people can go to any school they choose or ride on a bus? why do you have to pass amendments for that if everything is fair and square? people who call in and say we're tired of being called racists stop acting like racists and if you're tired of being called racists think about the people who have to deal with racism on a daily basis from the time they're children. i'm old enough to remember segregation and i'm old enough to remember the naacp being called the communist of the time so now we have these radical groups people are saying they're communists. go back through the history of america. we have good people on every level and every race and we

have people who want to think that they are superior because they have a certain privilege that they are white. that is not the american that we aspire to be and that is not the america that we need to be and we want to be. host: good to hear from you. a couple other callers. look forward from hearing from you again. do you want to respond? guest: absolutely. i didn't say before that the nation was founded on the ideal of equality. i said it was founded as a nation of imzpwrants. of course the founding fathers were talking about mostly white immigrants because it was europeans coming here and we know the rest of the history and we know why this country needed the amendments and yes europe and colonies were based on white supremacy at the time. twofe admit that as white people. it is what it is. the question we have here we

live in a country, white countries that are based on this mostly that was built on the back of nonwhite people and this is what it is. of course we've been fitted from that. white people benefit from that. it is hard to admit it again my background from germany i bring in a different perspective like who wants to admit that in germany for example that grandparents may have been involved in the holocaust? this is something hard and painful to do to admit this. as a white person in america it is sometimes hard for people especially like in the south that my forefather has done something awful. you're talking about your granddad, your grand mom. this is a painful thing to do and this is where we just have all to be a little bit human to each other and not beat each other and say ok you're not responsible for what happened, people were -- don't feel guilty for being white don't

feel ashamed because white people were born with white privilege or not it sticks on them. it is what it is. but rather than make people feel guilty and ashamed and make them responsible for things that happened tell people you have a responsibility for the future if you don't make it better, and be the america we want it to be. and like you said, this is not the america we want it to be yet and of course it wasn't founded as this. i think we're on a good way and if we all stay on this track, seeing through humanity this is a good way already. and we have to keep fighting for racial equality. this is what it is. you named the naacp. i'm active because i think this is important. i've been called out for being a racist against white people which i don't understand. no i don't hate white people. i don't hate anybody. i love everybody. and this is just something -- unconditional love. host: a question for you on twitter.

similar? guest: a lot of antisemitism. what drove antisemitism in europe and in america in the early 20 sdz century was propaganda that came out from russia. i don't want to name the publicication on national television, i don't want to do that, encourage people to reach that and get the wrong idea. but they put the idea out that jews want to take over the world and they're responsible for everything. germany just came out of a war where they had an election coming up that the own government betrayed them. and the peace of versi that you had were betrayed and things taken, it's similar to the

election and saying the election was stolen. it was similar in the 20s and of course it was fodder for far right groups popping up. and you had the counter part. you had a big communist movement and socialist movement that were feeding each other for a long time before the nazis took over. and this is what happened in germany but it was also in the media and people felt like they had to take one of these sides. and they felt like they have only one of these two radical sides to pick from. and a lot of people didn't want to do that they wanted to stay mod crat but they didn't have a choice. we need to make sure people know that today especially here in america yes you do have a choice you do not have to pick the far right or the far left. you can but you don't have to. and this is the nice thing if you have a choice. you can do whatever you want and you can just choose humanity. host: let's see if we can get a couple more calls. barbara in maryland.

good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for having me on. i am a brarblee female and -- bye rarblee female and i work in law enforcement and i have done a lot of research related to holocaust as well as african american american history and also the history. i have learned that by watching the black and white movies of -- not real movies but actual documentries of what happened in germany with the holocaust it helped me grow as a person. and i did that on my own. it was not taught in school. and nor was it taught in college. but my question to your person is what if you had the platform to talk with biden and kamala

harris, what information would you provide to them in order for us as americans to stop this huge divide? because if we don't stop the huge divide we will end up like germany, like the holocaust, we will end up like a lot of these other countries that dehumanize the human like they did with the jews where they cut off their hair. they were basically had no value back then. host: ok. guest: if i would have the platform i would encourage them as i would encourage everybody on each side humanize each other, bring that message out. and the problem is if biden says we have to move forward in unity and advice trump voters to join him and trump voters say well you didn't want that

four years ago and now we don't want that, that's like a little bit like the child in the sand box. well you stole my stuff i don't want to play with you either. it's a vortex that we can't get out of until both sides say we need to stop this. and we need everybody in this country doing that and if only biden is saying that and other people don't chime in yes a lot of democrats too that say no we don't want you. and if you have people from the far right who started to turn you will hear it was too long too late. well, i must say it's never too late, it's never too long. every little step in the right direction should be welcomed even if a white supremacist changes just a little bit, welcome it, tell them you welcome it, encourage the change rather than fight the change because otherwise we push them exactly where they were maybe even further. host: how many people like you have you met that have been

former nationalist neo nazi or former kkk member or supremacist member? guest: thousands, hundreds. there's a whole network of former, google former neo nazi, former white supremacist. formers. you will find a majority i think the big group of people and organization that is do a great job helping deradicalize people that want to get out with great programs. there's a lot of them out there. you can have discourse with not only with me, so i'm only one little wheel in a big machine that i'm just using my resources sometimes to collaborate with others if i don't is the right resource. that's a lot of them. often we just don't see them. people disengage sometimes, get out of a hate group, get out of a conspiracy theory and just don't know where to go because it is not feature -- people just don't know. that's not awareness of these things.

those groups are there, you can reach out and also get the psychological help and get into deradicalization. host: last call. caller: good morning. mr. garrett, i really appreciate you appearing on the program this morning. my question to you, growing up in germany i don't understand hile. you could not have recognized the fact that your country brought us into a world war because of a radical one radical and a group of radicals. and then you seem to have blamed it on media and you are blaming it on the radicals here in the america on media.

everyone has a responsibility to think, think for themselves. i grew up in southeastern united states and i saw bigotry first-hand growing up. and we had the history of slavery which i've never been able to wrap my brain around. host: i'll let you go there and you want to respond to her question or her comment rather. guest: first, when i started and i told the story really inappropriate jokes, i knew i was fullly aware that the nazis were the bad guys. i was fullly aware and i was not even cherishing it. it was inappropriate stuff. i was classified as a nazi at the time when i wasn't one. i was put in a box, the lid was closed put label nazi kid on it and i lived in there and

radicalized myself and it also, and this is we need to start to think for ourselves, this is true. but if you just get in touch with the wrong people that feed you with the wrong ideas then you start thinking about these wrong ideas. and over the time you start believing these things because this is the only thing you see, this is the only thing you hear, and the truth becomes the truth for you. their truth. and this is the tricky part. if we live in boxes if we can't break out. and this is also let's try to wrap this up. i don't blame it just on the media. the media is just one part. but after echos certain messages from one side, from the left, from the right, whatever depend wrg that media stands. anyway, whatever a community -- and i'm working with the muslim community, working with the black community, working with the jewish community. i'm a regular synagogue and so

on, i'm working with people in los angeles a lot. and whenever these minority groups feel under attack and everybody feels helpless, when something happens like sterling, floyd, mu zealnd church christ all these things and the communities under attack everybody feels helpless they don't know what to do and i say look also at smaller incidents and one that happened here around memphis when a kid wrote a racial slur on a school table it was the n word and everybody was to kick the kid out of school, expel them from school. rick him out. nobody looked at this kid as a human being any more just as a racist. we don't even know the kid picked up the kid was radicalized because nobody wanteded to know anybody more. and here's the power we have.

no matter how disempowered we feel helpless we all as a human community including the minority communities have a great power looking in those boxes where these people are at these certain points in their lives, opening them, look at the human being and we can decide if we pull them up put them back on the right track with dialogue, accept them as a human being. not ideology. or do we leave them in the boxes and the guys with the white hoods pull them out or the believers or whatever it is. so we have the choice what happens to those people in the boxes. this is why we can take action. walk across the calf tiera, embrace other that is may think different than you, look different, pray different, love different, and most importantly vote different than you. embrace them, see them as human beings. host: tm garrett the founder and ceo change memphis.

it has been a pleasure to have you with us. thanks for >> c-span's washington journal. every day we take your calls live on the air on the news of the day. and we will discuss policy issues that impact you. monday morning, we talk about the start of the second impeachment trial of donald trump with a constitutional law professor and author. and with the former press secretary for president trump, sean spicer. watch c-span's washington journal live at 7:00 monday morning. join the discussion with your phone calls, facebook messages, and tweets. >> next, a forum on former president trump's role and influence in the republican. -- republican party