cuts, that is not the number they are looking for. with that, you'll back. >> this is seized -- visit c-span's new online store. with the 117th congress in session, we are taking preorders for the congressional directory. every purchase support c-span's nonprofit operations. shop today at c-span shop.org. host: our first guest is john bailey, a visiting fellow with the american enterprise institute to talk about the debate currently going on when it comes to reopening the schools amid the pandemic. mr. bailey good morning. , guest: good morning, it is great to be with you. host: in your background you have spent some time here taking a look at these issues. could you scope for people your experience on those fronts? guest: i've had different experiences.

i was the director of educational technology but then i was deputy policy director at the u.s. department of commerce. back in 2005 and 2006. that's when president bush began the efforts to develop the first pandemic preparedness strategy. so i was part of a working group that work on that in terms of what would be needed across the country in terms of supply chain and everything we are experiencing right now. from shelter-in-place orders to what we do about schools and issues around masks and whatnot. host: you wrote a recent piece taking a look at this topic of it reopening schools. and you directed your attention to the role the teachers union played. for those who have not read the piece what is the gist of it? , guest: there is a tension across the country, science is pointing to ways we can safely reopen schools.

and that is a body of science that we did not have at this time last year, school closing has made a lot of sense last year because part of the pandemic preparedness plan is that you close schools early. because kids send to be -- kids tend to be vectors of the virus, they are super-spreader's. we all know that from influenza. the respiratory diseases, you often slow that transition chain. let's close schools in order to flatten the curve. that we were all experiencing this time last year. but what we learned in the month since is that the coronavirus is not played out in the exact same way the respiratory influenza virus does. and the effectiveness of school closures is not nearly as effective as what we had initially thought. and so we are seeing now in experience with schools reopening in europe and schools reopening in the united states

that it is tough but we will start bringing kids back into the classroom with various types of safety layer's and protective measures. but we are seeing many of our largest urban centers, whether it be chicago, san francisco, that the teachers unions are moving the goalpost in terms of what they declare to be safe for reopening schools. what it is doing is it is keeping kids out of the classroom for almost a year. it has incredible consequences for kids as they look at a lifetime of consequences so there is this tension. host: the chicago schools, there is reporting this morning that the teachers there reaching a deal with the management on reopening schools. it does quote the president of the teachers union who said this plan is not what any of us deserve. the fact that they couldn't delay the opening a few short weeks to re-up on vaccinations and preparations is a disgrace.

is that an unreasonable request? guest: again, it does not adhere to the science. even president biden's cdc director says you don't need to vaccinate teachers to bring them and kids back into the classroom. you need layer of protection. the first layer of protection is so critically important, they are masks. the cdc just reaffirmed that yesterday. we know keeping kids apart three feet to six feet is very important. we know ventilation is important. other protective measures are vaccinations as well as doing asymptomatic testing. doing a testing regimen once a week where kids are getting tested and you are quarantining kids that test positive. but those are not needed. the best example of this is actually chicago. while all of these negotiations have been going on between the

city and the chicago public school system, and the teachers union, the largest catholic school system in the country has been reopened since september. it has had fewer cases of kids and faculty catching covid in the closed public school system. the catholic school would not -- is doing this without elaborate on extensive measures. protective measures we have now well known and well established and well verified, masking, keeping kids distant, increasing ventilation in the classroom. also making sure there is hygiene. it is not that the vaccinations are unreasonable. we want teachers to get vaccinated very quickly. that is an additional layer of protection. we could get kids back in the classroom and teachers back in the classroom when these other protocols sooner. host: john bailey will be with us until 9:00. if you want to ask him questions about reopening you could do so.

(202) 748-8000 for you parents out there. (202) 748-8001 educators. if you want to text us, (202) 748-8003. mr. bailey, this morning, there is reporting today about the president's initiative on this. saying the president's efforts to reopen public schools within the first 100 days has changed a little bit. the white house press secretary saying that the president's goal is far more than 50% of schools. to have some teaching in person one day a week. not necessarily fully reopened by day 100 of his presidency. what do you think of the change? guest: it is a pretty significant change. we have heard throughout the late fall and most of january that there was going to be this very aggressive and needed and urgent call to reopen schools within the first 100 days. as of this week we heard the criteria for reopening is so

much lower that it has already been met. we know right now from a number of different websites that are tracking school openings, about 60% of kids aren't doing the -- are doing exactly the type of reopened schools that president biden is describing. what we need is not that lower bar. we need to be setting a higher bar. there is an urgency on here. there is a pandemic outside of the coronavirus pandemic. and it is the pandemic of learning loss that is happening with kids. the pandemic becomes a mental health challenge. all of this results in not being in school. we know these play out over a generation. the incredible harms we are inflicting on kids now for several years from now we won't know. it is urgent getting kids back into a classroom safely and responsibly. it is not about being irresponsible.

but we can do it. and again we have lots of places , that we could learn from over in europe. multiple systems here in the u.s. have been open since september. there's no reason we can't be doing more right now and setting a higher bar. host: one of the places you point out is wisconsin, why do they stand out? guest: wisconsin has become a subject of debate over the last three weeks because in part the cdc released a study looking at 14 schools. states that use protective measures we were just talking about. they had masks, they were social distancing the kids. they did all of these different types of protective measures. the cdc researchers tracked them for the fall and found out they were not spreading the virus. either to themselves or to adults, teachers. that is a good thing. but it has created tension because the administration is trying to spell that in order to reopen schools we need the american recovery act as part of the additional dollars to safely

make sure the protocols that these kids in wisconsin had our in place for kids that are outside of school. again, what we are seeing are these are not expensive protocols. they are not the wealthiest schools in the country. there was a 150,000 dollars from a private foundation which is relatively small to cover 17 schools. congress has provided schools with dollars from the cares act and dollars through the december economic relief package that is now providing close to $60 billion for schools. that they could use them for all of these different protective measures. the cdc study is one of the latest studies on top of a collective body of research that is showing the path for how to safely bring kids back. host: let me tell you what becky pringle most recently

talked about that wisconsin study saying it little bit about , if it is not representative of what she is seeing places. we will get your thoughts when she is done. >> the cdc has said the available evidence has been reassuring. there has been little evidence that schools have contributed meaningfully to increase transmission. becky pringle, are masks not enough? is that what you are saying? >> masks are not enough. they base that on a study done in wisconsin. what they found is exactly what you said, greta. however, those schools that reopened their, they have a sizable donation from a private foundation to provide the additional resources that they all had masks. they had small class sizes, about 10 or 11 so they could socially distance. they had testing available.

they had people to do the tracing. and, greta, they were working with educators who were thinking about how they could bring their students back safely. what the cdc and everyone else has said that we have to have all of these measures in place. all of them not one of them, it , is not just masks, it is ventilation systems. it is socially distant. it is washing hands. it is being able to clean surfaces. it is making sure that we have test available so we could quickly identify those who are infected with covid-19 and isolate them as quickly as possible. host: your response? guest: one, explain away the science. this is one study. even if you want to ignore this one study, there are hundreds of

others that say the same thing, there is a duke study looking at school systems in north carolina. i don't disagree. you need these protective measures. the masks, the social distancing. they have been recommended for the past year. this is not new. but duke researchers looked at , the measures in north carolina and found again very little spread between students. very little spread between students and teachers. that it was safe. again, you could dismiss wisconsin because it was rural schools and a limited set. but if you want to look at urban schools, the study that the chicago health department did of catholic schools in urban chicago, it was exactly the same thing. in all these instances asymptomatic testing was not employed. that is another layer of protection. but it is not the fundamental layer you need to bring kids back.

all of these schools are able to bring kids back with the existing layer's of protection in place. there is over $50 billion that congress provided. host: let's hear from an educator in albuquerque, new mexico. jesse, you are on with our guest from the american enterprise institute. caller: thank you, so much. good morning. i just wanted to say i have to disagree with the guest about the teachers unions moving the goal posts. because, in new mexico, the new mexico, the education department actually just moved the goalposts. we first had the rule that we had to be in green in our county in order for schools to go back. now last week at the state of the state address we totally

flipped that. it and now says like next week we michael back to school. all the unions are trying to figure out what is going on. there was supposed to be a mass teacher vaccination thing that ended up getting canceled. i don't even want to get into the mess of politics behind that. but, i will say also, like our governor said one death is too many. and so risking all of these kids and teachers to go back to school. one death is too many. one sickness is too many. unfortunately, i support it, i'm a teacher but that is what our governor said. i'm just trying to follow the rules. host: thank you, go ahead. guest: first of all, utter appreciation and respect for the caller, that teacher. and for the situation he is describing, which a lot of teachers are feeling like a yo-yo. a lot of this is coming back to what the caller was describing in terms of trying to assess what are the right community

conditions? the community level spread of the virus. is it safe to reopen schools or should you keep them close? there there has been a bigger debate. there has not been as helpful of guidance coming from the cdc. and so, as a result, governors have been left trying to read the research, look at what other governors are doing and figuring out what is the right level under which it is above a spread that is is so high that it is not safe to bring teachers and kids back into the classroom. that is incredibly frustrating for teachers. it is incredibly frustrating for parents, students and teachers as well. the biden administration updating, we will get clear guidance on what level of spread should dictate what kind of model there should be. so it gives governors and the , caller certainty in terms of

how to plan and how to prepare. host: saint minnesota, we will hear from bob, hello. caller: thank you for taking my call. the thing i have been following, the thing that frustrates me is look at governor cuomo from new york says follow the science, follow the science. the president of the united states, before the election, after the election. follow the science, follow the science. here you get the head of the cdc. then you get dr. fauci that says the best place for kids is in the school. while i don't understand is why don't the catholic schools and charter schools for example here in minnesota that have been in school since september that the public schools don't understand nationally. it is working. the teacher from new mexico where one student comes down with this is enough. well, it is going to happen. are we going to wait until this thing is totally over?

host: thank you. guest: it is a great point what we are seeing right now is an administration wrestling with following the science and again a collective body. we will have a paper coming out shortly. it summarizes 120 studies. just a small fraction of the studies that have been published since march of last year about what a risk to kids. do kids transmit the virus? this goes back to the previous caller about the risk to teachers. and also, what are the protective measures needed in place? all of these collectively point to using these letters of protection. it is possible. but what i think you have now, because of so much fear mongering happened in the fall. you have parents that are really worried. about their risk. we have to do more.

this is not a crisis of science. it is a crisis of trust. we will have to do more to earn the crisis of the trust of teachers and parents. the way to do that is by pointing to some of these school systems that have been open. that have been serving kids and not seeing lives put at risk. we need to be telling those stories more and putting people to those examples as well as the very large collective body of evidence. that suggests that there is a path forward. host: connecticut is next. this is lewis for our guest john bailey of the american institute. caller: i think you have to look at the breakdown. if you are going to try to compare the different geographical areas you will see urban, suburban, and rural. rural is less populated for one. if you live in the suburbs, the schools are up-to-date the kids , are not living in chronic conditions. if you look at who got hit the hardest, it was blacks, latinos,

and native americans. so they got more crowding. ,they got bad schools, bad ventilation and bad health care. , those populations right there are the ones that are most affected. if you go to a private school that is well-funded, better ventilated, and less populated. you have to do the math. look at the numbers. host: ok, thank you caller. guest: it's a great point in the sense of we should not be making a national policy that applies to all schools in terms of whether they should be open. that should all reflect all of the different types of conditions the caller described. there are reasons schools should remain closed because they are not able to adequately ventilate and create more air circulation. or because they just don't have the classroom space in order to keep kids socially distance. or because the community spread

is so high it would be irresponsible to bring them back to the classroom. i don't disagree with that. but what we need is a better framework to help evaluate these risks. and mitigate those risks. that is what the cdc has outlined. the protective measures could help. it also means there are some teachers and students who should not be coming back to the classroom because they have underlying health conditions or risk profiles that put them more at risk of not just catching covid. but potentially passing away from covid. again the cdc is really clear , about this. i could imagine all sorts of ways we create the accommodation for teachers that are older, above the age of 65. students and teachers that have underlying health conditions that create more risk, they should be accommodated and stay home. there are other students we could start bringing in.

we don't have to bring all students back, but maybe you start targeting the students who are struggling the most with remote learning. as another way of bringing back a small cohort of students. keeping them socially distant as we get through this period. host: matt in virginia, an educator, hello. caller: i teacher right across the river in fairfax county, public schools. we are transitioning to in person learning. as a teacher i have already done in person learning in the fall with my students. i think for some teachers there is a fear that once they get back in person it will dissipate some. but i think, looking at our national perspective, what you just said, some schools are protecting those teachers with those higher needs because of their age or disability. some private schools are not giving out information about

covid outbreaks or protecting their teachers with advanced age or disability. i mean, i think the number one thing for success is for communities to actually follow the protocols. and if you look at the country, a community will decide whether schools could open. our people masking? are people following protocols? this is not a school issue, this is a community issue. we need to be looking at, our communities actually doing the things they need to do for schools to open? host: that is matt in virginia. guest: that is bring up this whole issue, you have to trust the protective measures in place inside the classrooms for them to feel safe to come back. and so, the same thing with the community, the community has to feel that as well. it is as much as this is a

medical challenge putting protocols in place, it is a challenge there as well. schools and the community need to do more to earn teachers trust on this. but i do think, we have seen some of the research studies we will summarize, where you have seen outbreaks in schools or childcare settings, summer camps is when to the callers point the safety protocols have been relaxed. when a summer camp did not have a kid masked up, it is not a surprise that a lot of kids caught covid. it is the same thing in israel. they brought kids back into the classroom. bringing kids back to school creates this surge. what is happening is the kids are coming back without ventilation. also without masks. when you remove these safety protocols you see a surge in cases.

and so, it is just critically important for schools to adhere to what the cdc is recommending. host: we are running short on time but a viewer asked if you could comment on the recent call by the cdc in some cases to at sometimes implement double masking. guest: that is the new guidance that just came out yesterday. what we have seen and learned is masks are one of the primary ways we fight covid. and that, if you think about it, if we are all wearing masks you actually get double coverage. because particles from my mouth will have to go through my mask and in through your mask. if you double mask it removes the chances of particles 95% of the time. the cdc researchers, dr. tony fauci, and others believe this is our first line of defense. against these new variants that are emerging from south africa and the u.k.. it is super important for us to take this guidance that came out

24 hours ago and begin using better quality masks and double masking in many instances. it is going to be critical piece of guidance for schools if they are thinking about reopening. host: let's hear from amanda in kansas. we are just about to go to the house in a few minutes. so go ahead with your question or comment. caller: i keep hearing about you want to send the kids back to school. i even hear from the parents how hard the at home schooling is and how frustrated they are as parents. and i understand all of that. but right before christmas, i buried my best friend because her son, who is a special needs child, was sent to school and not once but twice was sent home because he had somebody he had come in contact with at school. and ended up giving it, they

made it through the first time. but the second time they both got it and his mother died. and you cannot imagine the situation that put us in. i just feel like, you know, because it is an inconvenience and because it is making life difficult to have your kid at home when you have not had to had them at home all day long and they are driving you nuts. and the in school or at home schooling is hard to do. i understand that is a hard position to be in. maybe they need to look at what they are doing there. but i don't think we are ready yet to send the kids back. it is not just the teachers and the kids. it is those who are at home that are at risk too. host: a couple of minutes left, go ahead. guest: my heart goes out to you and to that family.

that is the absolute worst tragedy any parent could have. if you are helping to support that family, thank you for that. it is also a reminder of what is at stake and why these safety protocols are so important. it is also a reminder that i don't think -- kids being at home is a nuisance for some parents. boy we are seeing some grave consequences of kids being socially isolated and some other challenges with them being home in terms of kids not being fed. we just heard about a tragic rise in suicide in clark county, nevada. where 19 suicides, other kids who have taken their lives because of the social isolation. and so these are balancing. balancing tension and trying to find a way to navigate the risk.

because there are risks to keeping kids at home. just as much as there are risks to reading kids back into the classroom. we have to find ways to protect the most vulnerable and youngest children and figure out a way to responsibly help and bring them back into the classroom. host: john bailey serves as a visiting fellow at american enterprise institute talking to us about the role of educators particularly as they deal with the pandemic. mr. bailey, thanks for your time and input this morning. guest: thank you so much, thanks for all the callers. >> you are watching c-span, your unfiltered view of government. c-span was created by america's cable television companies in 1979. today, we are brought to you by these television companies who provide c-span to viewers as a public service. >> this week on the communicators, we want to