front of the senate finance committee on the 2021 filing season. at noon, the senate is back to work on the nomination of polly trachtenberg to be deputy secretary of transportation and on c-span three at 10:00 a.m., the trial of former minneapolis police officer derek chauvin in the death of george floyd continues. on our website, www.c-span.org, at 9:30 a.m., the senate armed services can be looks at the 2022 defense budget request for the u.s.-european command and transportation command. at 10 a.m., the senate banking committee hears from officials in the naacp and national housing alliance on racial discrimination in housing. at 2 p.m. come the senate appropriations subcommittee looks at the 2022 budget request for the national science foundation. coming up and an hour stephen dinan on his latest reporting on

border security. at 9:15, public a report on the new pbs frontline documentary film, american insurrection, about the events of january 6 and the rising threat of far-right violence in america. ♪ >> with congress back in session, members and president biden will pay respect to capitol police officer billy evans, who was killed in an april 2 attack at the capital -- the capitol. we will hear more reaction from the house and senate on police violence. the second line of unrest and violence shook a minneapolis suburb last night in the aftermath of yet another police shooting. good morning. it is april 13, 2021.

video from brooklyn, minnesota. our question this first hour focuses specifically on qualified immunity for police officers. should that be eliminated? we will get into what some states are doing about that in a minute. the line -- if you say no, this is the line. members of law enforcement can call on (202) 748-8002 outside -- you can post your questions on our facebook page as well. to set the scene last night, riding late last night in brooklyn center, minnesota. this is the reporting from star tribune. the officer meant to use a

taser, not a firearm on daunte wright. the officer was kimberly potter, who has been an officer for 26 years. she has put on leave. it played out on a brooklyn center police officer's body camera. officers attempted to handcuff him and he slipped back into the driver seat. a female officer shouted taser, taser and pulled out her gun. more on the violence and unrest there. police and protesters clashed. demonstrators clashed with law enforcement officers for a second night in a row following the fatal shooting of a 20-year-old black man by police officers. the scene escalated after the start of a 7:00 p.m. curfew,

instituted by governor tim walsh. on the issue of qualified immunity, we will get into the definition in a moment. the first state to actually undo that immunity is new mexico. the headline from last week makes it easier to sue police. state legislators have a record number of proposals to end qualified immunity for law enforcement. she said new mexicans are guaranteed certain rights by the constitution, but when violations occur, we know that they are disproportionately people of color and there are often roadblocks for those unalienable rights. this bill does not endanger any first responder or public

servant, as long as they conduct themselves professionally and with a deep and active respect, all of us as new mexicans. in doing that policy there in that state. your thoughts on that. if you say yes, it is (202) 748-8001 and if you say no it is (202) 748-8002. it is a judicially created doctrine that shields government officials from being held personally liable for constitutional violations. that is from the source of law fair. let's go to richard first. good morning. >> good morning.

can you hear me? >> yes. >> as far as i am concerned, qualified immunity should be eliminated. i do not want to make a sweeping generalization, however, that is my view. let me give you a little background. being that -- not simply because of the racial tension in the country and the horrific incident in minneapolis -- i could go on and on. why are members of law enforcement -- i am asking this rhetorically. why are they above the law? why are they given these protections, where there are

those -- it is not black-and-white. nothing is. this is my last comment. in new york city, i remember within the last year, mayor de blasio took some heat from those who did not like his his quote about defunding the police. he was diverting funding that would have been better spent under other agencies. it is not a black-and-white issue, but there should be a rebalancing. that is what i have to say and i hope you have a good day. " another says do not and the immunity. >> there are two reasons. this whole thing is based on a narrative that is not backed up

by the data. there are bad police officers, but if you look at the statistics, most police officers and most police stops are normal. take a couple incidents and magnify. the whole thing is based on a false-negative that the media has been putting out for the last 10, 15, 20 years. the second reason is that the police officers -- there will be people who will not want to become police officers. we will see a shortage of police officers, which we are already seeing now. cooksey said the narrative that they have been putting out.

define that for me. what do you think the narrative is about police violence and interactions between civilians, certainly ones that turn deadly. >> there is this systematic strategy about police officers, that they are going after minorities and purposely targeting minorities. it is not backed up by the data. most police stops with minorities and white's are normal. most people get a ticket and a warning and go about their business. the ones that end up bad are the ones that the media are magnifying. i do not have the data in front of me, but if you go back and look at the data, most of what happens on an everyday basis is

completely normal. now the media taken those few incidents and magnified it. now we have this situation on our hands. look at what it is doing to police officers. >> your second point is that in doing qualified immunity, ending this protection for police officers will further hinder officers or keep people from joining the force? >> why should i become a police officer and subject myself to being sued or losing my job over an incident without due process? why should i put myself through that? i am going -- it is self-preservation. they are going to back off of

situations that are dangerous because they are afraid of what will happen. >> a tweet from robert that says, now they can murder us, call it a mistake and they get paid admit -- paid back -- paid vacation in the form of administrative leave. when cops do their job correctly, the way that they are trained, they cannot sue the cop directly. when they screw up, they are fair game. another says, everyone is entitled to due process. our brave officers should be left alone and encouraged to serve. if found guilty, there is a consequence for it. from amy, we cannot have police and an armed citizenry at the same time. one of them has to go. citizens are being faced with scared cops.

president biden weighed in on the shooting during a meeting at the white house. president trump -- president biden: i have not called daunte wright's family, but prayers are with the family. it is tragic, but we have to wait and see what the investigation shows. you all watched the film, which is fairly graphic. the question is, was it an accident or intentional? in the meantime, i want to make it clear that there is no justification for eluding.

no justification for violence. peaceful protest is understandable. we do know that the anger, pain and trauma is real. it is serious and consequential. we will not justify violence or looting. the question is how we make clear to determine what the fact is and what likely happened. in the meantime, we are calling for peace and calm. we should listen to the mother who is calling for peace and calm. that is what i have to say on that issue. >> following a second night of violence in that minneapolis suburb. daunte wright's shooting and

unrest in minnesota. the issue we are talking about is the constitutional shield that protects officers being held personally viable -- liable. if you say yes call (202) 748-8000 if you say no, call (202) 748-8001. officers call (202) 748-8002. >> how are you doing? i say that this needs to be done away with. i was married to a cop for 20 years. after we were divorced, i had my run-ins with cops. i am a white girl. i'm sorry. it has to go.

>> hello. good morning. in my opinion -- here is the bottom line. cops should be held to a higher standard than even the general public. as peace officers, when they make a mistake, the consequences are extremely grave. do physicians have some sort of qualified immunity? do other professions have some kind of immunity? at the end of the day, it is very obvious that what is happening here is a full on assault on black men, particularly. black people in general. that is what it is. there are people in this business that should not be in this business.

as a board-certified analyst, i will end by saying this. from the standpoint of black people, it is almost as if our behavioral response is inappropriate because other people the world over would not stand for what we stand for. thank you for taking my call. >> good. my comment is very simple. we have to end qualified immunity. it is giving people the right to kill unarmed civilians throughout this country. the data shows that if you are black, you are likely to be killed by an officer. it is that simple. they are being protected by the law or qualified immunity, was -- which is protections to keep in place their systemic racism

that exists in the police department. it is that simple. >> the police bill of rights ended did over the weekend. maryland becomes the first state to override the government veto. moving to pass a sweeping package that repeals the package. windsor locks, connecticut. good morning. >> how are you today? >> fine, thanks. >> the origins of any democratic society, we look back to max weber and it was a monopoly of use and force over a particular citizenship. this is the origin of our

democratic society. this is how we order society. police are doctors. that is not even -- police are an extension of law enforcement. that law enforcement can go all the way up to and has been considered part of military enforcement. the military are authorized through congress and the declaration of war, license to kill. they have an obligation to enforce the law. does that mean it is a perfect scenario? no. are there people that violate policy? quite possible. a monopoly of force upon the population is how government exists. and a lot of these places, benevolent anarchy is not

anything that people preach. >> a couple comments on social media and by text. patrick in new jersey. what is the difference between criminals and a few bad cops protected? in california, yes, and qualified immunity. when people comply and do not argue, most end well. it is almost certain if you resist or argue that bad things will happen. you cannot crucify all cops. it might be a good idea to end qualified immunity and get officers we. this one says yes in terms of ending qualified immunity.

members of congress should not be protected from their individual activities as well. investigate all of them at the slightest provocation. we hear from jack next. >> absolutely should be eliminated. law enforcement is a picture frame of our law. if they cannot be held accountable, then who can be? this should not even be coming up. >> welcome. >> thank you and good morning. i am amazed. you have collars saying that

most stops by police officers are normal and average. that is not the tea in the black community. as a black woman, i have never been stopped for anything other than a busted taillight, and the arrogance of the officers who approached me -- i am an educator. the arrogance with which they approached me, as if i am a common criminal, right off the bat, it is concerning and disheartening, when they are supposed to be there to protect and serve. when i was a child growing up in new york city, the police officers were people from your community who knew you and knew your family. today they are x military who really do not want to be police officers. they get out of the military and have nothing else they are qualified to do, so they take

that mentality into the community of color, where they are allowed by the laws of this country to brutalize us. unless it is your experience, do not call in talking about data that you happen to not have in front of you. thank you. >> the third week of the trial of derek chauvin underway in minneapolis. our coverage continues. it is also online at c-span.org. this is the wall street journal. his death was preventable. a cardiologist said that he could have survived if derek chauvin had released him from his restraint during the more than nine minutes during which the officer knelt on his neck and back.

derek chauvin is on trial for second and third-degree murder. prosecutors say he killed george floyd by kneeling on his neck. his lawyer has argued that mr. floyd died of an overdose and heart condition. another says that mr. floyd died do it -- due to a lack of oxygen. dr. rich said there were several points honoring the arrest when the death could have been prevented. next is david in longview texas. >> three months later, and we still do not know who shot ashli babbitt. where is the body camera of the officer who shot ashli babbitt?

>> matthew in kentucky. matthew is a no on ending qualified immunity. tell us why. >> i do not know about that stuff much, but i do know that these people are taking this a little too far. i think we should do a little better for our police officers and everything. they have a job to do. they cannot decide whether they are on dope or not what else are they supposed to do? >> james clyburn was in a conversation last week talking

about the agenda and talking about the issue of qualified immunity which is in the act that passed in the house. >> would you characterize the criminal justice system overall as having more of a few bad apples or as a systematically flawed system? >> i do not think the system is systematically flawed. i think there are more than a few bad apples, no question about that. what we have done -- we treat these things as absolutes. i am not against qualified immunity except that we interpret it as being absolute. that is what we have done, given police officers absolute

immunity. we do not give that to any other profession in the country. why do we do it with police officers? i think that we have been flawed in our oversight. most places would not allow commissions to have any say so. why not? >> the issue is addressed, past on march the third. here is what the language of the legislation size. it would limit qualified immunity and civil action against a law enforcement officer. it would lower the criminal intent standard to convict for misconduct in a federal prosecution. that is not yet passed in the

senate. the violence and aftermath of the shooting of daunte wright continued in minneapolis last night and also in portland, oregon. portland police announced a ryan. some video on twitter available, what we are showing from portland. we continue with your calls. hello. >> i think that we should do away with qualified immunity because the definition of immunity is a loophole. that is what this country's problem is. you also have immunity as a loophole for not paying taxes.

>> michael. good morning. >> so, i am a baltimore police officer. qualified immunity does not work for everyone. that is the thing that people need to understand. it only works for some. if you are a black officer and you dirt -- you do certain things come you get punished or fired. if you are a white officer, they will actually spank your hand and keep it moving. i do think it needs to be thrown in the trash because it does not work for everyone. a lot of times what these issues are, most of the things like

that are swept under the rug. the things with certain issues like the baltimore police department, if it does not make the media, you are kind of safe. once it hits the media, everything is blown up. just like the crime stats. they do not give you the true numbers of what goes on. if you do something bad, it is swept under the rug. a lot of officers are starting to realize that they can get away with more things, as long as it does not make the media. there are a lot of things swept under the rug. >> it sounds like both your leadership has and does not have your back, in many instances. you are kind of out there on your own. >> that is correct.

for people who do not know, stats and quotas are pretty much the same thing. a lot of times your leadership says, we need numbers to justify why we do what we do. police officers go out there doing false arrests, defiling people's rights because the pressure is coming from up high. once you get in trouble for the things that you do, because they are putting pressure on you, the leadership backs off, turns around and says, we did not tell them to do that. they have your back, only when things do not make the media. as soon as they make the media, you are now an enemy of the department and whatever jurisdiction you fall under. >> you are in entirely different jurisdiction, but in your

experience, especially on the daunte wright case, how difficult is it for an officer in the heat of the moment to confuse firing his taser or firearm? >> yes. in your training, the way that we put things on our gun belt, you are trained to mentally know where your firearm is, where your taser is, where your magazines are and where your handcuffs are. you have to take it upon yourself drawing your weapon, if needed, on your own. these are things that they train you in the academy. granted, in the heat of the moment or something going on, i still do not see you drawing your firearm for your taser, unless you are on the ground and disoriented, that is the only way.

if you are out of breath and have no other out, yes, you will draw whatever you can get to. what's in your experience, has an officer done that? >> no. i have never confused. >> not you, but have you known an officer to confuse the two in your department, in the heat of the moment or a training exercise? >> yes. a few years, may be several years back, there was an officer training in the police academy in baltimore city. he confused -- he was actually a trainer and he confused a couple things and ended up shooting a trainee. that is also a different scenario. he thought he put his on-duty firearm -- he thought he had placed it in the holster, but he

had placed his actual firearm in his holster and shot the officer, but i have never heard that an officer drew his weapon, his duty weapon, instead of a taser. >> how long have you been serving? >> i have served for 14 years. >> we appreciate your insight. we go to bill in palm springs, california. bill in california, go ahead. >> that last speaker was pretty amazing. i was born and raised in philadelphia. i live in california now. i have driven all over this country. i have dealt with police here and there, some good and some bad. a lot of the police came from a program where they did not have

any training whatsoever. a lot of the kids that i was in class with, i would not have hired them at kmart. training is the thing. it is friends and family, even firemen, same thing. they are not trained, a lot of people. it would be curious to see who is and is not trained. also, that police officer -- that was horrible. >> this facebook post from greg who says indian qualified immunity would be a disaster, in his view and disproportionately affect poor people.

he says this officer should not have his life financially ruined because of one incident. anthony says, no they should have qualified immunity. a text from gresham, oregon. they need qualified immunity. they do not approach to enforce someone to die. it is when people break the law and resist is when things go the wrong way. here is a novel idea. require officers to have four year college degrees. they can wear cameras while going to school. think outside the box. another says, i have been stopped several times by law enforcement and complied to the fullest orders. i have either received my ticket for being wrong or a warning and

sent on my way with no issues. those who complies survive. another story on the vaccine front. a breaking story that the fda is recommending causing the johnson & johnson vaccine after six reported cases of blood clots. recommending an immediate halt of the use of the vaccine. it was issued out of an abundance of an. it could risk slowing down the u.s. vaccine rollout. to richard in gillette, wyoming. >> i would like to bring up the elephant in the room. the elephant is resisting arrest. every incident like this, that i have seen on tv involves resisting arrest. can anyone name an example where

resisting an arrest was successful? as far as drawing the wrong piece, fox had a discussion about this. i do not know if she represented the police departments in california or not, but she said she knew of 16 incidents where the wrong -- where it was the taser -- where the gun wrong -- where the gun was drawn. 16 incidents that she knew of. >> i'm not sure it was a resisting arrest incident, but the army lieutenant stopped and pepper sprayed is making news. a virginia officer fired after pepper spray -- forcing him to the ground during a traffic stop.

an official said he has filed suit, seeking more than $1 million against the officers. video went viral last week. windsor has half a dozen officers. gutierrez was fired and additional training was implemented. max is in doylestown, ohio. >> good morning. i am white and have been pulled over by officers, who have had their hand on their gun when they pull you over. drugs are a big problem.

can you imagine what this does to children watching someone murdered on tv? that is all i have to say. >> can you from wilson, north carolina. >> good morning. i was a technician and -- if you did something and your name is up there, there is no immunity. there are certain standards.

it looks like they are hiring any and every one. their background should be looked into. they have a lot of people in there. they need to let them quit because these are the people who do not want to abide by the rules and do not want to be professional. i think joe biden should go through and investigate everyone on that force and start getting decent people in there. it should be mandatory body cameras. they should be mandatory. this is a problem that has been going on for quite a while. it is a disease in the police department. there is a lot that this country has to do. we have to face the problem that we have.

we will continue to have this. people, do not you see our country falling apart? donald trump was in there for four years. he gave those police the ok to do a lot of things. >> we are talking about the issue of qualified immunity. the state of mexico has ended it . if you say no, the line is (202) 748-8002. they came out with reaction to

the passages of the george floyd police act. qualified immunity has an often misunderstood high bar for officers to receive and is the only protection law enforcement officers have from frivolous lawsuits. defund the police further entrenches an anti-police dialogue. there are answers, but in order to be effective, they must receive input. passing legislation that is unrealistic is a waste of time. it has not been taken up by the u.s. senate yet. the former miami-dade mayors spoke about the importance of ending qualified immunity.

here is what he had to say. >> we have a bill that strips our front-line police officers from qualified immunity that will possibly destroy our police force. i was responsible for ensuring my community was kept safe. i understand the importance of qualified immunity. officers performed vital tasks under intense circumstances. without this security, officers will resign and deplete our officers, leaving our communities less safe and costing the lives of countless americans. i encourage my colleagues to vote against this dangerous bill.

crooks that legislation passed march 3. it would lower the criminal intent standard to convict officers. some comments on social media. this from north carolina after the law enforcement official called us. your firearm should be on the dominant side and the taser should be on the opposite side. do not and qualified immunity. does the person have a hidden gun? is that person on drugs? my name is charles and i have been stopped several times. we read that earlier.

even with immunity, officers or their employers remain liable for alleged misconduct. philip in michigan. >> all states need to create a statute called automatic enforcement. when the girl shot the teenager, the officers next to her should have immediately arrested her for at least involuntary manslaughter. the officers who did not arrest her on scene are complicit in her actions by not arresting her. if the states could produce this statute, the law would be followed to the letter and the woman who shot the teenager would be in jail.

>> it is dan in jackson heights, new york. >> good morning. >> mute your volume or you will feedback. >> i'm sorry. i have often seen policeman, especially young policeman do things like they are standing in traffic. you say, listen, you are going to be hit by a car. they are very nervous. i have seen older policeman taking out their personal resentments on the public. you saw that with the army lieutenant. we are really dealing with people with tremendous responsibility, which they should be duly commiserated with proper respect and funding, but

also with a lot more training. that is where the problem is. they love to take in combat veterans because they are weapons trained, but a guy who shoots at anything that moves is not the guy that you want as a peacekeeper in town. these are simple things that should be known. taking only college graduates, it was an exemplary town. it did not have a single incident of this kind, but this kind of stuff only happens when people are rushed into the field without three or four years of training. very good training on how to conduct themselves. inhibition is more important than the speed at which you

without your revolver. >> i'm saying that the policeman doing crazy stuff out there all the time, they are the ones complaining that this should not be done because they want to do what they want to do. if you are a black person come you live in a different world. >> dropping a plan for oversight, citing the george floyd bill. backing away from a pledge to swiftly create an oversight commission. saying it would better address police officers using excessive force. >> in terms of the police commission, we have been in close contact over the course of several months, back to the

transition with civil rights activists, law enforcement community about what would be most effective, moving forward. the statement that we put out conveyed that we have made a decision, and coordination that the best path forward has a great deal of content and policy changes, the necessary reforms. that is where our focus will be. >> we expect for our focus to be on moving legislation forward. >> biden selects a forming -- a former attorney general to lead. a longtime advocate for reform of the criminal justice system to lead the agency.

there is no system that is more old-school and broken. the dea has been without a senate confirmed leaders since the obama administration. steering the roughly $3 billion agency, which investigates violations of the nation's drug laws. talked to your calls on the issues of qualified immunity for police. it would be limited under the george floyd police act. your thoughts on it. if you say yes, call (202) 748-8000. if you say no call (202) 748-8001. police officers, your number is (202) 748-8002. >> yes, it should be eliminated.

the reason i say that, especially when you have people calling in and say, i have been stopped by the police. what race are they? i am a black person and i have been stopped, but yes, i did follow the rules, just like the lieutenant in maryland. what was he doing wrong to get pepper sprayed in the face? when it comes to this exemption for these police officers, just like during world war ii. >> are you there? go ahead with your comment. >> yes. it should be eliminated. that is all i had to say. >> showing you some headlines from minneapolis, the twin cities area on the violence

overnight. the brooklyn center is a suburb of minneapolis. dozens arrested there. we will show you the headlines. we will go to jd in nevada. >> i just wanted to talk about -- somebody mentioned the elephant in the room. i wanted to clarify that the real elephant in the room is that this is stolen land. this stolen land was built on the genocide of indigenous people. on the enslavement of black people. the constitution and the government as a whole was built on all of that. that genocide is still happening. we are still invading other

countries. it is as american as apple pie. >> good morning. first of all, i want to agree with your last caller. also, the police officer who called in from baltimore made all of the sense in the world. if you listened to what he was saying, he told you the whole scheme and why qualified immunity should be eliminated. it should have been done away with years ago. one caller talking about how the news media plays into it and the propaganda with the news media. it is not propaganda. look at your facts. do not come talking about statistics. when most people of color, whether they be black, brown, orange, yellow, white -- when they have been encountered with the police, it comes out bad.

you do not have a right to kill someone because they resist arrest unless your life is threatened or someone else's life is threatened. it is hard to believe that you have 26 years of police experience and cannot tell metal from plastic. quick scholars have mentioned about the army lieutenant that was pepper sprayed. this was the reporting. army throws support behind lieutenant pepper sprayed and attacked. voicing support for the officer involved in the incident caught on camera where two virginia officers pepper sprayed him during a traffic stop. michael grinstead and tweeted that he was concerned by the video.

he represented himself and our army well through his calm, professional response to the situation. very proud of him, said the sergeant major. from florida, we have tom. >> good morning. i am telling you, i could never imagine the plight of a black man, but i have a brother who is a retired sheriff's deputy. he said to me, one time, tom, there is us. he did not mean him and me, he meant the cops. that was his mom -- mindset. we look at movies like clint and dirty harry back in the day. do you feel lucky, punk? it is a good guy and bad guy

mentality, and it continues today. people aspire to be cops like them. if that makes any sense to you, but i am saying i do not know the plight of a black man. >> do you think most people aspire to be cops like dirty harry or representatives of their community? >> mayberry, usa never did exist. >> i'm talking about serving the public in a respectable job, a job that pays decently, you can live ok on it and you want to serve the public. do you think they are more those , or more people who want to be like dirty harry? >> there are more good guys, definitely. there are more good cops.

>> to eugene in waterbury, connecticut. >> good morning. it hurts me when people call who are not people of color, who have not been victims. you have been victims for centuries. our leaders have been killed, assassinations by police officers. i have been a victim. i live in a community that is crime driven. i have been a victim. i do not commit any crime. i try to obey the laws. i am in my own house and i became a victim of police brutality. it has to stop. something has to be done. it hurts so much. we have to stop being victims. >> usa today and one of their

opinion pieces, he is a disease that afflicts all americans. too often we frame hate as an angry white majority against beleaguered minorities. if we are going to reform police and defeat hate, americans of all races and ethnicities will have to do better. this does not absolve anyone. whites accounted for the plurality of hate crimes, 46.3%, according to the fbi, but not a majority. that changed during the trump administration. white he crimes jumped. that trend is an embarrassment in a nation where we should be getting better. too much coverage frames the issue in black and white terms. a hateful white majority against innocent minorities. that does not match the complex reality.

hate is a widespread disease. larry, next in cleveland. >> good morning. qualified immunity should go away. there never should have been such a thing, to begin with. there would be a lot fewer police shootings, killings, if police officers knew that the personal property -- that their homes and children's college funds could be attacked. this young man that got killed

over the weekend, you can see already the police chief trying to serve the scenario to save this officer's career. come on now. if she trained to grab the taser , how do you reach for the gun on the same side? >> a couple comments on social media. saying absolutely. no one is above the law, even the police. many have gotten away with murder for too long. it has to stop. eliminating qualified immunity will cause less people to join the force. we all need to carry sidearms.

on twitter, police officers are not perfect. criminals usually get what is coming to them. what a stupid move to jump back into the car. he got what was coming to him. good morning. first, definitely qualified immunity should be gone. most cops hide behind the implied immunity when i feared for my life. but until the police force changed its makeup from 80% white males throughout this country and starts looking at -- have a good day.

host: more ahead here on "washington journal." next up we will talk about the biden administration and their border security issues. later this morning, ac thompson will join us to talk about the new pbs frontline documentary film airing tonight. about the events of january 6 and the rise of far-right violence in america. ♪ >> books tv on c-span2 has top nonfiction books and offers every weekend. saturday data clock p.m. eastern, former general election -- electric ceo or flex on the challenges he faced after 9/11 and during the financial crisis

in his book "hot seat." sunday at 9:00 p.m. eastern on "afterwards." in her book, neuroscientist lisa genova discusses how are memory works. she's interviewed by david chang -- david shank. anthea butler argues racism is a foothold in white evangelical religion from slavery to current day in her book "white evangelical racism, the politics of morality in america." watch book tv this weekend and be sure to watch in depth in may with ross downton on c-span2. >> c-span shop.org is the new

online store. go there today to order a copy of the congressional directory, a spiral-bound book with contact information for every member of congress including bios and committee assignments. also contact information for state governors and the biden administration cabinet. order your copy on c-spanshop.org. >> "washington journal" continues. host: next up is the politics editor for the washington times. with us to talk about border issues and in particular immigration and border issues. guest: good morning. host: the nori -- the story we noted about the border last week. he reported the dhs may restart border wall construction to plug "gaps." tell us the policy so far when it comes to the border wall with

mexico. guest: at the end of the trump administration, the administration constructed about 460 miles of border wall system over the four years. much of that paid for through defense department money through some emergency orders and other changes siphoning from pentagon accounts to go to border wall funding. president biden immediately revoked that declaration and restored or cut off that siphoning of money from the pentagon for portable construction. so it took at a large swath of the funding that president trump had expected to continue to use to build maybe 300 more miles in the planning pipeline. president biden cut off that money and paused a different set of money congress allocated to go to border wall construction.

in essence it was an across-the-board halt on construction. construction crews were allowed to tie down to cover up dangerous holes and whatnot and then walk away from the sites. a fairly clean break with construction. president biden i believe late last year probably after he was elected, before he took office, said he would not build one more foot of border wall on his watch. now the administration is struggling to figure out whether he can live up to that promise. host: i guess under the adage of shows we spend your money where your values are printed that regard, the current funding, of the special funding ended or halted that, what about going forward going into the 2022 budget. guest: they are unlikely to put

money into their budget for wall construction. the key issue the fiscal year 2021 which we are currently in, there is about $1.4 billion put into that appropriation bill that president trump signed late last year. there is money in that bill for border wall construction. so the debate right now is does president biden have to continue to spend that money on the wall or can he rearrange that money and use it on other things. what the homeland security secretary said during the virtual town hall is there are some gaps that were left in the wall when that stop work order came through. there were gaps in the wall they may have to fill. i've done other reporting in

southern arizona, they are about -- there are about four miles of land with a built a high-speed road. the wall is a system, if the actual physical barrier. some border patrol agents think the road is more important than the wall and then there is technology to detect incursions. that's why the trumpet mr. schumer talk about the wall system could there are about four miles in arizona at least in arizona where they've built the road but didn't she finish the wall and the sheriff in southeast arizona said we just built a highway for the smugglers. they can come across those gaps and then get on to the road and suddenly they can get where they are going faster into the interior of the u.s.. where the homeland security

secretary suggested they may actually have to build one more foot of wall essentially challenging the president. host: clearly the trump administration building the wall was a successful political message during the campaign and during his presidency. how about at the end of his presidency in terms of a practical immigration deterrent success? has the additional wall proved to be a deterrent and was he able to convert other politicians, democrats included, into his view maybe we need more border wall. guest: those are to complete the different questions and they are fascinating in the directions they go. the message is still very heatedly debated. every border patrol agent of talked with said absolutely walls work in this new instruction did work. the reason why is it's not to block every single crossing, the

point is to impede, to delay crossing where people do cross. when you can shape where people are crossing and how they are crossing and you have the road you can place agents to get to them, you can interdict those. that's what the agents say is successful. the folks on the other side say if you're talking about drugs, most drugs are still coming through the ports of entry, of the official border crossing, of wall doesn't change that. i've done reporting on a symbol for the walled does good drones are common for flying drugs over the wall. people use drones. literally putting drugs on catapults and firing them over the wall. so there are ways folks are adapting to the wall. we will see how long that lasts. the other question you ask is a good one about support.

if you look back before president trump took office, support for the wall was on party lines. in 2006, 2007, you would then senator obama, biden and 20 or so other democrats joining with republicans in voting for 700 miles of border fencing the obama administration actually completed the construction of that border fencing. president trump took office and you can track the public polling. support will president trump -- while president trump was in office drop below a majority. now that he's out of office, support for the wall is back up to a majority position. it is interesting what president trump's effect was on public policy polling on a number of issues and it appears on the

wall he sort of poisoned it in the public mind and now without him there, it suddenly more popular. they could also be because of the surge we are seeing and folks saying maybe the wall will help. host: let's get to the issue getting the most attention recently regarding the border. covid prevalent in shelters holding illegal immigrant children. how many children are currently in shelters along the border elsewhere in the united states since the beginning of the biden presidency? guest: there are two different types of custody that the government has of these children . when they come across there apprehended by border patrol and occasionally they come through to present themselves. most cases often want to be caught because the government actually will help them pay to

complete their trip into the u.s.. in some cases they will walk up to a border patrol car and they want to be caught. just slightly more than 3000 those children still in customs and border protection custody at the border. under current policy they're supposed to be transferred within 72 hours. there are more than 70 shelters thereof the country that are to care for these unaccompanied children. as of sunday the rate children within those shelters. as of late last week it was only

16,000. they transferred over the last three or four days or so they've managed transfer 2000 children out of border patrol custody into the shelters. those are basically dormitory style. some are more tense. but they are better than the border patrol facilities which are holding cells. they are holding cells with is no possibility of social distancing and they are really packed in. the goal is to get them out of that custody and into the shelters where they can find sponsors. host: what do government officials say is the main reason for the large increase in children of the border. guest: the increase in particular is twofold.

the biden administration says there is pent-up demand from the tough trump policies that sort of it squelched the crossings over the last year and a half in particular. for the children, it was the changes the biden administration made. they'd been expelling under a pandemic, centers for disease control that shut down the border. under that, anybody across the border could be returned back across the border immediately spat -- expelled back to mexico. hundreds of thousands of people were expelled under that order. the biden administration said we will do that for single adults and try and do that for families. but for children, those who came without parents and presumably have made this really difficult journey, that's unfair and

inhumane to expel them back to new -- back to mexico. that's what we saw in march with nearly 19,000 unaccompanied children in march alone, by far a record. the u.s. treats unaccompanied juveniles who show up for mexico and canada, contiguous countries differently. they can be immediately returned. but if you show up from under us, under u.s. policy you have two process the health department. but we are really talking about central american. chiefly those three countries over the last several years or so. tens of thousands of children showing up unaccompanied.

host: you probably saw the story. mexico, honduras, guatemala to deploy troops to lower migration. the biden administration struck an agreement with mexico, honduras and guatemala to temporarily surge security forces in an effort to reduce the tide of migration. guest: the trump administration saw a similar surge not so much of children, but a massive surge of families showing up beginning in 2018 and really peeking in the late spring of 2019 as the trump administration, president trump threatened to slap major tariffs on mexican goods unless mexico did more to stop the

territory. mexico said we will deploy troops. immediately expel back across the border. the president managed to stop that crisis. in some respect that similar to what they have done here. mexico is leaving those national guard troops that it had deployed. it's leaving those of the border to guard there. they will forward deploy police to try and hinder the process the progress of folks. very much so, it is sort of a trend in u.s. policy because the

way our laws and policies exist so we will ask other countries to stop them in their territory instead. host: talking about biden administration policies on border security. for republicans the line is 202-748-8001. democrats call 202-748-8000. independents and all others call 202-748-8002. you can send us a text and you can also tweet us. question from lizzie on twitter on the border wall. since the wall construction was under contract, are we still living to pay even though the building has stopped? guest: the answers we will have to according to the former acting commissioner of customs and border protection. he says the administration will be on the hook for billions of dollars in payments for the

contract that won't be paid out. he estimates there are thousands of tons of steel that were procured to build the wall that are sitting around and the government has to figure out what to do with that. that question is very astute. there are issues the administration will have to work through to cancel those contracts. host: here is some of what the latest administration has set on the wall. we will hear that and hear your thoughts. @cspanwj --[video clip] >> dhs secretary is looking to fill some gaps in the wall at the southern border. >> wall construction remains caused. to the extent permitted by law. some has already been funded through congressional authorization and funding allocation. but as agencies develop -- it is paused while agencies develop a

plan for the president on the management of the federal fund. when the administration took office, the funds had been diverted from military construction projects and other appropriated purposes towards building the wall. wall construction was being challenged multiple lawsuits. for much of the wall. due to environmental and safety issues. under those, federal agencies are reviewing wall funds. it is paused, there is some limited construction that has been funded and allocated but it is otherwise paused. host: largely reading a statement there. but they are still in the midst of developing a plan when it comes to wall construction. guest: a very, gated answer that boils down to what i was talking about earlier. the defense department money is no longer being siphoned. the congressionally appropriated

money, they need to figure out what they are going to do with that. the secretary said customs and border protection the minute the plan for what should be done with that money. so as far as that plan is now sitting with him. another interesting aspect to this. this pause we are under right now, there are congressional republicans who've asked the government accountability office for a legal review of whether the pause is legal because congress allocated the money and said this must be spent on border wall construction. republicans say by tossing that -- pausing that money the president is violating congress's power of the purse. this is the same law that was used -- that snared president trump in some ways, of the government accountability office found he broke the law by clogging that ukrainian assistance money in the summer

of 2019, part of what led to the first impeachment proceeding against president trump and there well begins made that explicit comparison saying if he was paying for that after congress as you need to spend it isn't this the same situation. there's no suggestion of quid pro quo and the other thing that led to a impeachment. but there shall active the administration stopping or holding funding that congress and you must spend is a real legal question. the gao agreed to investigate and offer. host: we will go to larry in maryland. caller: joe biden's plan is a joke. he is a transnational globalist. he said come on in to the united states, open border. 24 years they found jackets of

farsi and arabic. they are filing in -- they are flying in from central america -- to central america. host: how much of that is correct? guest: there's a lot there i will probably leave alone. the one thing he did raise on the question of whether biden is responsible for children. that's a real question. they would argue it's inhumane not to admit the children, to return them back to mexico, the country they just crossed on sometimes very dangerous journey. this something to that. at the same time there is that sense they crated that incentive to make that journey. but there is no doubt the journey is rough. i've reported in the past when teenage girls begin this journey

from central america some begin to take birth control because of the danger, the prevalence of being raped during that journey. those conditions they are starting that journey knowing they might face and they go on the journey anyway which tells you something about their desperation and the conditions they are traveling through. it is a very complex issue and it is for much smarter people than me to figure out where the equity lies. there are more people coming and they have a more lenient policy. >> in the washington times you are writing about the health issues related to the surge. health official because migrant search unprecedented. sidney runs the office of refugee resettlement of health and human services. she said they've open the shelters to the care they are giving is a crisis standard of

care. you write that the biden team has fiercely denied calls to call it a crisis. why is this such a big deal to call this a crisis? guest: it's a good question. i went into this thinking i wasn't quite sure why there was such a focus on that. some of the folks on the border, one sheriff made this exact analogy and said -- the homeland security secretary said it's a challenge that a crisis and the sheriff said if you're in school and facing a challenge, that means you need tutoring. if you're in school you and you have a crisis that means your failing a class and needs major changes. his point is if you're labeling it a challenge, you don't understand what you're facing right now. from the other perspective, they really are putting a lot of

resources into this and so it doesn't matter what they are calling it if the solutions are the correct ones and they managed to change the flow and the condition the children are in right now in the border facilities. the children are getting -- the unaccompanied children are getting a lot of attention. we seen the numbers slacking for the arrival of children in the last week or so. the latest numbers of the last five or six days adjusted closer to 400. what i am expecting though is families, the parents will arrive with children and in particular young children. those numbers are likely to go up. right now they are not close to what they were during the peak of the 2019 surge under president trump.

but they increased dramatically from february to march. that's a crisis or challenge in the coming months is families showing up. host: on twitter, how much of these border children costing us? guest: we do not have complete figures but we know the base in the hhs shelters is pretty expensive. hundreds of dollars a day. republican senators again back to the border wall reported $800 per bed per day in one of these facilities. i reported last week health and human services in order to try and get these children to get sponsors to collect the children fast -- that can get out of federal custody. they are paying for the sponsors to fly in and collect children. we don't have a total dollar

amount partially because we don't how many we have. but it's a lot of money. the biden administration so far has resisted the notion it will come to congress and ask for an emergency infusion of money in order to accommodate the levels we are talking about. folks on capitol hill from both parties think they will have to do that. that's when they may have to acknowledge what folks on capitol hill want them to acknowledge that it is a crisis. host: this is joe from alabama. caller: well you show is not long enough to talk about all the problems biden has created. we've got this thing called radar. you have on trucks and jeeps.

drones and light aircraft. now, because of trump -- people on the wall, but if biden does it, it is good as sliced bread. host: we will hear from linda in southaven, mississippi. the independent line. linda, make sure you mute your volume there and go ahead with your comment. caller: with all the children crossing the border, with all of the mental illness on teenagers and young people in the united states, how do they plan on dealing with middle illness from the crossings of this long journey? also, do they think they can

take teenage boys and throw them into fields with lettuce, and apples, and picking vegetables? is that not slave labor? host: thoughts? guest: there are couple interesting things there. there is very much a realization that children who go on this journey, particularly unaccompanied children on this journey, many are suffering trauma. the impact of these children after they are released, there released to sponsors, and in most cases, those sponsors are emily, often parents, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, grandparents here in the united states themselves, illegally here in the united states, and it is a major devastation for those children. fairfax county, montgomery county, the county surrounding washington, are among the top 10 destinations for where those children end up being placed

because there is such a large central american community already here and the children are being placed, and the school systems have to deal with on only the trauma but the new numbers and challenges of the english learners. they have been dealing with that since 2014, the first of the surges under the obama administration, first of these child surges, but it is a real issue that they are facing. i have reporting coming out later this week hopefully on the older male teenage migrants present to their own problem. for one thing, we saw this in the 2014-2015 and 2019 sarge, they turn out to be a prime recruiting ground for ms 13 and other gangs. i have a list of cases where children who cross as

unaccompanied juveniles or part of a family unit as teenagers were quickly recruited. sometimes they come over already as ms 13 members but were recruited from ms 13 and joined gangs and are now stand accused of horrific crimes through those gangs. so there is real danger of fueling ms 13 numbers through this surge. that is sort of a dark part of this. host: there is a headline from tucson weekly, bite into nominate chris magnus as head of border patrol. what we know about chief magnus, and why did the president select him? guest: he has been chief in tucson and also in a city in michigan and in the bay area, i think richmond, california. he is known as a progressive law enforcement official. he has been critical of the border wall, for example, and many trump policies. he was picked because he has that proximity, from tucson,

about 70 to 80 miles north, and that proximity gives him the ability to say hey, i deal with the flow of the folks coming through my community. not up against the border, but i deal with the flow coming through my community, so i have a familiarity. and he matches the president's progressive approach to immigration in terms of opposing much of what the trump administration did. host: let's go to akron, ohio. terry on the independent line. caller: i was wondering, what is the definition of an unaccompanied minor? and it's strange, how does a seven or eight-year-old get from central america all the way up to the border of the united states? do they have an adult bringing them there, then dropping them off? when they get there, and they

are handed over to the authorities in the united states, is -- do they have parents that are illegal, they try to get them into the united states? could you comment on that a little more? guest: those are all really good questions. unaccompanied minor is a juvenile, someone who shows up who is 17 or younger. there is some question as to how strictly the government is able to probe them. border patrol agents tell me there are a large number of folks who claim to be 16 and 17, disproportionate numbers, and they wonder how many of them are actually 18 or older and are lying about their age. there is some question about the checks that go through, but they are supposed to be 17 or younger , and they are supposed to show up without a parent when they are crossing. in some cases, the caller is right, there is a parent -- we have seen cases where a family is showing up, they are getting return under the cdc expulsion order, and the parents

will send the child alone to cross, knowing that crossing will be accepted by the border authorities at this point. in terms of how they come up, it is pretty much often as the caller describes, a parent will pay for a chain of smugglers to shepherd the child north from the central american countries. they are often times -- we have seen a large number of what i call many caravans, groups of 100 room -- minicaravans, groups of 100 own more, and i think the southern part of texas have seen groups and groups of those. those will have maybe -- maybe 5060 of those groups will be families with parents and children. another 20 will be unaccompanied children. so in some ways, they are on to a broader group of people and caravaning up. not always, we have seen horrible incidents of young

children crossed alone by smugglers, and in some cases, we saw the case recently in the last couple weeks, where they were dropped from the border wall or left stranded on islands in the rio grande. it can be really rough conditions, and you can understand, for the earlier caller, that trauma we can talk about. the final thing, what happens to them, they are transferred from order protection to the health department. 90% of them will meet up with sponsors. usually they are family members here already, and in many cases here illegally. health and human services said they will not question the legal set of -- legal status of folks to encourage folks to come and collect their children. the other 10% that do not end up with sponsors, they either go through their court proceedings, and an health and human services custody for years until their

immigration cases heard, or they turn 18, in which they are returned -- released into other settings. host: i've heard federal reporting from the government that they have asked for volunteers to serve time on the border to help with the crisis down there. how accurate is that? how many volunteers do they need? guest: that is accurate. there are two different calls for volunteers. homeland security department issued a call within its own department saying if you are a tsa, uscis, legal immigration division, can you come down and help process and care for the children? there is a much broader -- the office of personnel management put out a government-wide call for volunteers. last i checked, from homeland security alone, i think they had 1000 different people who had offered to go down. i do not know the numbers for the broader government call. this is not new.

the trump administration activated what was called the homeland security air force. they activated that themselves during their surge in 2019 as well. host: our line for border and state residents is (202) 748-8002 -- is (202) 748-8003. jerry is joining us from new mexico. caller: can the biden administration be brought up against crimes against humanity concerning the border fiasco there? guest: there are certainly folks who attempted to do similar things to the trump administration, raise broad human rights allegations and whatnot. i don't know where the venue would be for legal judgment on that, but certainly folks have leveled those charges against past presidents during these sort of searches. host: i want to ask about the resignation of roberta jackson, reporting here the washington free beacon, biden's orders are to step down. he made the announcement friday,

a week after vice president harris took over u.s. diplomatic efforts with mexico, honduras, guatemala, and el salvador. what is the vice president's role, now that she has been charged by the president to oversee the current border issues? guest: it is interesting. we had all had this brought impression that people started calling her the border czar. her role as a diplomatic relations with those central american companies. sort of the foreign policy aspect of this. the white house says she is not actually the border czar, not dealing with the actual crossings and issue of the children showing up. what is particularly interesting, the deals we talked about earlier with mexico in the central american companies to forward deploy their own law-enforcement resources to try to hinder those folks who would be making this journey, the white house pointedly yesterday

noted those negotiations have been going on during the ambassador's tenure. it was an interesting, hey, good work, ambassador, as she prepares to leave. caller: up next on the democrats line from pennsylvania. caller: hello. i noticed all these people seem to be heading north to united states. are any of these people heading south to the south american countries? because this is an international problem i believe. are there any other countries taking some of these people? i feel sorry for them, i wish we could take everybody in the world. let's go to nigeria, let's go to wakonda, bring everyone here. but we are going to lose our country if we bring in more and more people who we don't know who they are. host: kind of a related question from cory who sends us this taxed. he says why are people like from

-- exempt from the politics involving mass migration to the u.s.? guest: there are all really good questions. to the caller's question, there are some going into other countries, and there are a few, if you are in honduras, there are some who have settled say in mexico. in particular, folks being persecuted in central american companies who will go seek a safe space in one of the other neighboring countries. by and large, and this is not universal, by and large, the central american countries, the ones sending the most, they are coming for a first -- for a few reasons. first, the difference is income. if you are from guatemala and land in mexico, you can double your income. if you land in the u.s., you can increase your income by tenfold. so many of them, and i mentioned

this earlier, already have relatives living here. in many cases, this is family reunification. they will claim asylum, sometimes they do earn asylum and have valid cases, but in most instances, they do not have valid asylum cases and they are actually normal migrants but are using an asylum claim to gain a foothold in the u.s. here. so it is the family draw and economic draw. the conditions, the poverty, there have been several different natural disasters over recent years in recent months that some folks plane for the current surge. you have some folks say climate change is responsible for harming some of the farming communities there and causing flight from those areas as well. a whole bunch of different complex factors going into the flow -- you we call them the push factors, what causes them to leave the countries, and pull factories, -- pull factors, that

cause them to end up where they are. the pull factors, family and economic power are strong pull factors. host: let's hear from shirley in north carolina, a republican color. caller: yes. -- caller. caller: yes. since biden and harris do not want to go to the border, let's take all of the children and put them on the white house grounds. host: on visits to the border, you have written a number of stories about it over the years, stephen. how often do you get to view the situation yourself? guest: not since the pandemic, but at least once a year it used to be. it was sort of a favorite of mine because that is where i started going 20 years ago, and that was where ground zero was in the early bush years for this flow of people. part of the reason why i leave

two, part of the bush wall and vehicle area was built by that. there is a national pond he meant, a beautiful place in southern arizona that -- arizona. if you have a chance, please go. it is spectacular. for the late bush in early obama administration, the park was closed to the public because there was so much unauthorized traffic there. and the dangers of those encounters. as things calmed down during the middle part of the obama administration, they were able to open that park up. it is now still open, but the crossings, the folks in that area, are beginning to worry about an increase in the crossings again. those sorts of areas, they feel -- when i made my first trip to the border, it is a weird story, i came back and i was not able to write a story about it because i cannot figure out how to communicate to folks in a broader audience what i had

seen, because it was so different. we sat in a ranch house and watched massive groups of hundreds of people streaming across this ranch property. that was a completely different issue than what you see now with families and whatnot. that was mostly single adults, mexicans coming across. now, the chief sending are the central american countries. a lot has changed but the impact on the communities is something that we here in washington don't talk about as much as we should. host: our guest, stephen dinan, his politics editor with the washington times. you can read his reporting at washingtontimes.com. thank you for your boardings. guest: my pleasure. host: we update you for the latest overnight after the shooting of daunte wright, and ask you in particular the question on qualified immunity for police officers and other government officials. should it be eliminated? if she -- if you say yes, the line to use is (202) 748-8000.

if you say no, the number is (202) 748-8001. law enforcement officials, you can use (202) 748-8002. we will be right back. ♪ >> today, the defense will begin to present their case in the trial for derek chauvin, the former minneapolis police officer charged in the death of george floyd. watch our live coverage, starting at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span3, due to our 40 plus your commitment to bring you live senate coverage on c-span2. you can also follow alive -- along online at c-span.org, and we will re-air the proceedings each night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span2. >> today, irs commissioner charles rettig testifies on tax filing season and modernization

efforts at the agency at a senate finance committee hearing. live commit -- live coverage beginning at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span2, online at c-span.org, or listen on the free c-span radio app. >> "washington journal" continues. host: daunte wright was shot sunday evening in minnesota in brooklyn center, by a police officer mistakenly thought she was using a taser and shot and killed daunte wright. unrest began sunday night and had continued last night. this is the pioneer press. in their headline, police and protesters class for a second night in brooklyn center, saying after a curfew that took effect monday night, it was a second night of clashes between police and protesters over the killing of daunte wright of a police officer. more than 50 people were arrested. there were some reports they were looting in the

minneapolis suburb and at five businesses, authority said earlier today. i assured them i was working collaboratively with all involved agencies and will get to the bottom of this, he wrote on twitter at 11 a clock p.m. last night. "our city is calm now, thank you to all who came up peacefully to protest and then went home." on the issue of police violence and qualified immunity, we are asking you about that particular -- in particular. do you support ending qualified immunity for police officers? to remind you, qualified immunity is a judicially created doctrine that shields government officials, including police officers, are being held personally liable for constitutional violations, so long as the officials did not violate clearly established law. (202) 748-8000 is the line to use if you say yes, it should be ended. (202) 748-8001 if you say no. for police officers, (202)

748-8002. president biden yesterday at an oval office meeting addressed shooting over the weekend of daunte wright. here's what he had to say. pres. biden: i spoke to the governor and mayor, spoken to the authorities there, and i have not called daunte wright's family, but our prayers are with his family. a really tragic thing that happened, but i think we got to wait and see what the investigation shows, the entire investigation. the bodycam is fairly graphic. the question is, was it an accident, was it intentional? that remains to be determined by a full-blown investigation. in the meantime, i want to make it clear, again, there is no

justification, none, for looting. no justification for violence. peaceful protests. the fact is we do know the anger, pain, and trauma that exist in the black community is real, serious, and is consequential but will not justify violence for looting. the question is, how do we make in an orderly way to get down to a full-blown investigation to determine what the facts are and what likely happened. in the meantime, we are calling for peace and calm, and we should listen to dante's mom, who is calling for peace and calm. that is all i had to say at the moment on this issue. host: let's get to your calls and comments on the issue on qualified immunity.

dallas, texas is first up, this is charles. good morning. caller: good morning. i think qualified immunity should be removed only because their pro training does not seem to be so pro. most of the provisions don't seem to be pro. they are killing people for minor violations they do not deserve. and you want to say it is ok to do that? if you are so pro, why do you need that covered when you do things like this? [indiscernible] i'm sorry. that is how i see it. host: we go to kyle in buffalo, new york. good morning. caller: good morning. yeah. i definitely think it is time to get rid of that. we have seen so many examples

over the last -- i mean just -- it is really sad, but we have seen so many examples over the last few years of this type of behavior, and i would like to see footage of anybody other than minorities being treated this way, honestly. if there is footage of white males being treated like this by police officers, i would love to see it, because it implies it is only happening to minorities, especially black males. we just saw the lieutenant pepper sprayed just for driving with a car, new car with a temporary license plate. i'm just very -- i've seen too much -- amazing what would have happened if we did not have video cameras and police body cams. imagine what the police officers got away with back then. host: this is harold in

connecticut, qualified immunity. what do you think, harold? caller: yeah. how come nobody remembers or i haven't seen the footage of the time trump had the rally and gave the green light to the police? he was saying they were not rough enough on the people they were arresting. that is all i got to say. host: robert in florida on the no line. good morning, robert. caller: good morning. host: go ahead. caller: well, i am just -- i do not believe they should be eliminated there. there is too much the police have to handle on a daily basis. the world is not getting any safer. i do agree with body cams and training courses that would help the, you know, de-escalate

certain problems and confrontations. but, you know, we are going too far here. we are definitely going too far. if we choose to eliminate this, i can guarantee you you will end up needing to defend yourself at your own front door. that is where it will end, there. host: we mentioned that the fda announcing they are halting the use of the johnson & johnson vaccine, due to six reported cases of blood clots from the use of that vaccine. jim shooter with cnn and his reporting, breaking his tweet, all federal health channels, mass vaccination sites, community health centers that were previously administering the johnson & johnson vaccine will immediately stop. a federal health official told cnn. a senator from new mexico responding to the fda, saying i respect the independence of the

fda and their need to evaluate risks, but six out of 6.8 million is not a lot. if they are going to land on "we reviewed the data and everything is fine," they need to be clear and quick, and unequivocal on the johnson & johnson vaccine. back to calls in pennsylvania, adele, good morning. caller: oh, hi. no, they have to have the responsibility for what they are doing. i know it is a difficult job, but so many of our black babies are gone. they are killing children too much. it is too much for america. host: let me show you some of the reporting first on the police officer who shot to daunte wright, according to the bodycam or audio available. the headline here reported, and we will show you the headline

from the star tribune to begin with, holy f i just shot him was her reaction, reportedly from the audio, reportedly firing a firearm instead of a taser, which she expected. we will show you other headlines as we show you your calls as a go to david in denver. good morning. caller: hi. good morning. host: good morning. caller: you had a caller -- you had a caller in the first segment who talked about the jab. i think in 2020, you had over 1000 civilians shot by police officers. a few calls ago, you had a caller from new york who talked about white citizens who this has happened to. one of the most shocking videos

i have seen about police excessive force, thanks to the george floyd video, is daniel shaver. daniel shaver was executed in mesa, arizona. i think it was in 2016 or 2017. we do not -- did not find out about it until late 2018, after the officer who executed him was acquitted. then, that officer had the gumption to later file for disability, resulting from his shooting of daniel shaver. daniel shaver was crawling on his knees, trying his very best to execute and follow orders directed to him. he was crawling on his knees, and his shorts were falling off, so he reached to pull up his shorts and was executed.

the qualified immunity's needs to end. if people who say most cops are good, then they won't be defended and being sued if most cops are good and most cops follow their training. host: this is the reporting this morning, the headline anyway from the pioneer press in minneapolis. police and protesters clash for a second night in brooklyn center. a rest -- arrests begin after curfew. georgia, next up, james. hello there. caller: good morning. host: good morning. caller: i am going to have to say no. i'm saying know for a couple reasons. first of all, i am a vietnam vet. i know what being a slave is all about. i know that sometimes you cannot

-- short adrenaline may be flowing and you may make some mistakes. the second thing is that policing is a spayed function. i think these spayed ag's need to express on these different counties that the police are, to make sure you've got people in a good mental state. a record should be kept of all of the mistakes made. i think that should be a function of the ag. lastly, if you take a look at when these people are stopped, they don't -- and this goes back to the police being afraid. if a police stop you, answer the

commands, and if you have a problem, get with that by filing a complaint, because there is just too much stuff going on. people are not paying attention. the news media has us to the point where it is bad. but people don't realize you cannot do what you want to do. if you look at it, a lot of those folks had warrants, running from something. so if they stopped and let the police do what they are supposed to do, i think things will be just a little bit better. if you try to let the state do -- take a bigger role in making sure you have better cops, you might not have to go through getting rid of that amendment. but i think we have to take a look at people not answering to the command of the police. host: this is a story about new mexico ending his qualified

immunity statute. the headline from the wall street journal says new mexico makes it easier to sue police. new mexico's last week reporting made at the third state -- third easy estate to sue police officers. the legislation passed the state's temperature -- democratic legislature last month and was signed last week. it comes amid a push to curb protections from police in the aftermath of the 2020 death of minneapolis -- death of george floyd in minneapolis. this does not endanger any first responder or public service, -- servant, so long as they conduct themselves within the bounds of the constitution and with a deep and active respect of the sacred right, miss lujan grisham said in the statement. to the george floyd case, the derek chauvin trial continuing today, the third week of the trial.

the defense will begin its questions shortly as the prosecutors have finished up their segment. we will have live coverage of that today, beginning at 10:00 a.m. eastern over on our companion network, c-span3. you can follow it online at c-span argo -- c7.org, -- c-span.org, re-airing all week on c-span2. next from michigan. hi there. caller: hi. i think i am in favor of eliminating, but the thing is, i think it should be a blanket elimination, where it also includes government officials. if you are going to have immunity stopped and have people accountable, you need to go all the way with its, not just police. host: ok. i appreciate that. to serena in parkville, maryland. go ahead. caller: i also agree it should

be pretty much a blanket discontinuation, and i think if we, if people looked at everybody as people rather than as black people or whatever, we could do a lot better. host: i want to let you know about our coverage plans today as leigh capitol police officer billy evans will be honored at the u.s. capitol, lying in honor of the rotunda of the u.s. capitol. like it's underway today. our live coverage will begin today. that will begin at 10:30 eastern. we expect many members of congress and president biden

expected to be up there later this morning as well. life here on c-span at 10:30 eastern. our question this segment about qualified immunity, some comments on social media, on facebook. sally says don't end it, it won't be long before it will be hard to recruit anyone for police. just fire idiots like him. there are many good cops. there are bad eggs in every profession. bad teachers, lawyers, doctors, cetera -- etc. don says no, they are hired to do the dirty work the cities and states need done and this is their only protection. people need to stop resisting arrest. and things like this would not happen. one says sure as long as the municipalities they work for cover the insurance they will need to have doing police works, says william in middletown, connecticut. so we will go to mark in west bloomfield, michigan. the police officer's line.

you say do not end it. go ahead. caller: so i don't know a whole lot about qualified immunity, but i would say i agree with one of the previous statements made that these people do put them selves in harms way. i think we need much more thorough investigation on -- we need to be more judicious on what falls under qualified immunity. so perhaps changing what is the right thing to do in certain cases in training these law enforcement professionals to handle things differently. for instance, i was thinking what happened in minneapolis. with this cop, the taser and gone. host: breaking up a bit, mark.

we go to denise in michigan. caller: how are you? host: fine, thank you. caller: i agree blanket immunity should be removed, and only become -- because i believe everyone deserves their day in court. this not forget the police do have a union. they get their lawyers, and they can get all of the representation they would need. i believe fair is fair. i believe that fair is fair. if they have done something wrong, let it be shown in a court of law. if they have not done anything wrong, let it be shown in a court of law. that is all i have got. host: the u.s. house passed a law, the george floyd policing act, in the u.s. house. it has not yet been taken up by the senate, but in the bill, here's what it would do in terms of qualified immunity. it would limit it as a defense in a civil action against a law

enforcement officer and lower their criminal intent standard to convict a law enforcement officer for misconduct in a federal prosecution. the majority whip, james clyburn of south carolina, was asked about that legislation and the issue of qualified immunity last week. >> would you characterize the criminal justice system, overall, as having more of a few bad apples or as a systematically flawed system? >> i do not think the system is systematically flawed. i think there are more than a few bad apples. no question about that. i think what we have done to police is what we have done to [indiscernible] we treat these names as absolute. you hear us talk about qualified immunity. i am not against qualified immunity. previously, qualified immunity

has been absolute, and that is what we have done, given police officers absolute immunity. we don't give that to any other profession in this country, so why police officers? so no, i do not think the system itself is flawed. i just think that we have been flawed in our oversight of the system. we -- most places would not allow communities or commissions [indiscernible] why not? host: next up, we hear from cheryl in atlantic city, new jersey. good morning. caller: good morning. so i am in no, definitely. because we already live in a litigious society as it is, and this will just open the door to lawsuits for every little thing someone can think of, frivolous lawsuits, and who will end up

paying? it is the taxpayers because all they will end up doing is by a malpractice insurance for the police, and it will just cost the municipalities, the counties, and the states will have to pay for the insurance because they know tons of lawsuits are coming. i do not think it will remedy the problem. host: park ridge, gene is calling on our law enforcement line. welcome. caller: good morning. [sigh] as a retired lieutenant of 23 years, i saw good things and i saw bad things. there are officers out there risking their lives every day, every night. they made not -- may not come home to their loved ones. the risk they volunteered to take should be balanced and weighed with the current bill on the table. don't forget that the people out

there today have less respect because of the bad apples. ok? let's respect the good officers. let's protect them, support them. i appreciate your call. host: i appreciate your call, jean. brandy in barberton, ohio. go ahead. caller: hello. i do agree with your caller before. i think it needs to be abolished. for two reasons. i feel like it is not fair a citizen, who feels they have been violated, should have to obtain an attorney, which is very expensive for a returning -- a returner, and then they are fighting against a whole county. i don't think that is right or fair. the second reason, i think it will make them more careful. the good, they say police will not want to do a job if they are going to get sued. good police officers do not

think that way because they know they are not going to cross the line. it is the bad apples to worry about. host: here's part in florida who says yes, end qualified immunity. go ahead. caller: good morning. i just want to say, it seems like this has been an issue for so long, yet there has been no movement has to change of the procedures and discipline of the police. it seems whatever they do is ok. host: you are in holiday, florida. where is that? -- holidale, florida, where is that? caller: right on the county line between miami-dade and south broward [booing]

we have very few issues here -- howard. we have very few issues here. if we can do it here in this area, in this part of the country, why can't it be done in other parts of the country? this is something i just do not understand. host: some political news this morning, this is political reporting from politico about the differences between the former president donald trump and the minority leader in the senate, mitch mcconnell. republicans pray for a truce after trump attacks on mcconnell. they write donald trump and mitch mcconnell's relationship cannot go on like this. though the senate gop is tantalizingly close to retaking the majority next year, and largely united in opposition to president biden's agenda, the ongoing feud both -- between a former president and senate minority leader has decayed into

an untenable place. trump's diatribe against mcconnell this weekend signals the gop could sponsor badly in primaries next year and raises the question of whether mcconnell and trump can work together at all. that is in politico.com. our question this morning on qualified immunity. asking the question, in the wake of the continued violence after the shooting of daunte wright and the passage of ending qualified immunity in new mexico and as part of the george floyd policing bill working its way through the u.s. congress, (202) 748-8000 is the line to call if you say yes, it should be ended, the practice should be ended. (202) 748-8001 is no, and for police officers, the line is (202) 748-8002. we will hear from lenny in north carolina. you are on. caller: good morning. i am in castlehane, north

carolina. i would like to say these parents of these people need to do a better job of raising these kids. they need to be at home after dark. it's an old saying, nothing good happens after dark. it doesn't. nothing good. a lot of these people we are putting up as martyrs were criminals. they were under influence of drugs, they were not listening to the commands being given to them. we do not need to end protection of the police department, because that is what we are policing -- with that is what we are protecting with this law, the police department. if we cannot have a police department, you will be taking care of your own security at your own front door. nobody needs to do that. people need to own up and be measured by the same tape. our country is so free that if you decide to be a crook, you can do that. but when you get caught, you are caught. so you should lay on the ground if they tell you to lay on the ground and put your hands behind

your back and talk to the judge about what law you have been breaking and what you have not been breaking. the other thing is, why aren't the big news media, why are they all exhorting our border? crooks are there, too. thanks. host: gives in spring hill, florida joining us on our law enforcement line. hi there, jim. caller: caller: thanks for taking my call -- caller: thanks for taking my call. the reason i'm calling is because many people don't respect law enforcement. when you get pulled over, and if you did not do nothing wrong, why can you not just, you know, give the officer your license? why does everything have to be contested? if you did nothing wrong, if you are innocent, just follow the commands of the police officer.

a lot of people do not respect police officers. they assume right away the police officer is going to shoot them. when they have that mentality, bad things usually come out of it. while you hander -- handle -- while you are handing your registration to your office or, you can apologize and say i didn't realize i did anything wrong. at the end of the day, they are just doing their job to protect society. they don't know, when they are making a stop, who is behind the wheel. even if you have a uniform, military does not qualify you as being a member of the armed forces. anybody can get that uniform. so they have to rule out everything. if you are cooperative and show your id, and you be respectful, i can almost guarantee you it will be a different outcome. host: jim, are you currently in

law enforcement, a law enforcement officer? caller: i am retired. i did corrections for 21 years. we did not have to deal with weapons inside of the jail, but we communicated. of course police officers train differently and they do not know who they are coming across. you have to be respectful, but a lot of people do not respect the police officer, the cops. they assume every cop is a bad cop, and they have to get that out of their brain. they are doing their job. if i get pulled over, i'm going to roll my window down, and i'm going to say yes, sir, i'm sorry, i apologize. here is my license. if i get a ticket, it is not the end of the world. but you have a lot of people fighting with the police officers, arguing with them, and that does escalate. the police officer will think, why are you being defensive? host: can you see why that is a double-edged sword?

maybe it is exacerbated on social media as people see all of these incidents that happen and they get it in their head that, my god, this traffic stop i involved in could go downhill fast? caller: i could understand it, but you have to realize that the police officers are doing their jobs. if -- for example, if they don't pull people over for a broken tail light, or they say the license plate, they have to question why are you driving around? nine out of 10 people will pull their documents and say i'm sorry, and they will receive the ticket. that is all it is, or some states and counties give people 30 days to come back with their information. to me, it is innocent until people want to contested. people are contesting too many

stops instead of -- if you did nothing wrong, just comply, listen to the officer. host: jim, appreciate it and got your point. this is a reporting in the washington post, after 20 years in prison after stealing two shirts, a louisiana man is free. in september of 2000, guy frank was caught stealing two shirts in new orleans. the stolen clothing was almost immediately returned to the department store buck consequences of his crime, then considered a felony in louisiana, would last them far longer. frank served a sentence of more than two decades. last week, he was finally released. his sentence is another result of louisiana's offender laws which allow prosecutors to see the -- to see cars are -- seek harsher sentences for previous crimes if they have prior convictions. these laws have drawn heavy scrutiny for drawing mass

incarceration, drawing racial" -- inequities in incarceration. black people are disproportionately affected by the sentences. another statement, it is hard to imagine a white person with resources receiving a sentence for this crime. they also right about mr. frank, a 2002 state court decision noted frank had been arrested 36 times starting in 1975 and was convicted several times for theft and possession of cocaine, serving a three year sentence in the 1990's. it is unclear on what charges he was arrested. they noted he had never done more than steel and small amounts. by the time he stole the shirt, a waiter reportedly struggling with addiction had already been convicted with at least three felonies. this is -- we are going to wrap it up here and look for your calls momentarily here on

"washington journal." next, we talk about a program airing tonight, debuting tonight on frontline with republic correspondent ac thompson joining us to talk about the new documentary coming out tonight, american insurrection, about the events of january 6 and the rising threat of far-right violence in america. ♪ >> listen to c-span's podcast, the weekly. this week, the workplace after the pandemic, with axios technology correspondent kim hart. she will talk about a newly released poll which indicates most employees prefer working remotely. >> 87% of people surveyed want to work remotely at least one day per week. a lot of people want to work even more than that. only 13% said they wanted to work full-time on site the way they use. that is a huge change for employers who are used to having everyone in the office every day , people commuting, people

wanting to live closer to their jobs. that is no longer quite as important. >> find the weekly where you get your podcasts. >> coming live today, the ceremonial arrival for u.s. capitol police officer billy evans, who was killed last week while guarding the capital. a congressional tribute to the officer follows at 11:00 a.m. later at 7:00 p.m., the house returns to take up legislation to suspend cuts to medicare. on c-span2 at 10:00 a.m., irs commissioner charles rettig testifies in front of the senate finance committee on the 2021 filing city. then, back to work on the nomination a polydrug bird to be deputy secretary of transportation. on c-span3 atomic icam, the trial of derek chauvin and the death of george floyd continues. on our website, c-span.org, at

9:30 a.m., the senate office committee looks at the 2022 senate budget request for the u.s. transportation command. at 10:00 am, the senate banking committee hears from officials from the naacp and national fair housing alliance on race role -- racial discrimination in housing. at 2:00 p.m., a subcommittee looks at the 2020 budget request for the national science foundation. >> "washington journal" continues. host: joining us next is pro-public a correspondent a.c. thompson. also, the correspondent for the documentary debuting tonight on frontline called "american insurrection." airs tonight beginning at 10:00 eastern and 9:00 central. welcome to "washington journal." guest: thanks for having me on. host: the peace is titled american insurrection. so much recently, the term insurrection has been used about the one singular day, the insurrection of the capital on

january the sixth. your peace begins in charlottesville, in 2017. why is that? guest: really what we are looking at through the course of our film is the rise of insurgent, far-right movements during the trump era. really, if you want to trace that, you go back to charlottesville. i was there, and you see the men in the streets that day and what their intentions were, the act of terror that occurred that day, killing. you can see a pretty straight line to what ends up happening at the capital. groups rebrand, they change their names, they modify their politics. but, in many ways, a lot of the same ideas that were innovating -- animating the people in charlottesville came to animating the people at the capital. host: how much deeper, though, the events in charlottesville, how many years was that in the making to get to such a public

point, public display of that? caller: what's people who -- guest: what people who were there and involved in the white movement would say to me is, over and over again, "donald trump was the catalyst for me being out here in the streets." ""he started saying things i believed in but didn't want to say, and i felt more comfortable saying -- comfortable participating in this movement when he became president or when he started running for president." what people in the film we made this time are saying to us is something different, they are saying the white power movement is over, people are not comfortable with those politics, but there is sort of a brand of extremism that is more palatable to people. you might call it civic nationalism, ultra nationalism, but that is the current wave that, in many ways, propelled the events of january 6. they were talking about the

militia groups, the the proud boys -- groups, the proud boys, these types of outfits. host: our guest is a.c. thompson . the documentary airing on frontline is "american insurrection." your calls are welcomed. republicans are (202) 748-8001. democrats are (202) 748-8000. independents and others, (202) 748-8002. how long did it put you -- did it take you to put the documentary together? guest: we started working on that right after the first presidential debate in which then president donald trump gave a shout out to the proud boys, the ultranationalist street gang. host: could you see then where the culmination would be, the culmination being the january 6 attack on the capital? could you see, back then, that event would be possible, given

the people you are interviewing, things you are seeing for these groups? guest: the thing we kept viewing as we were talking to people was that something dramatic, spectacular, and very bad was going to happen. we just didn't know what it was. there were so many people that we talked to who said, look, the only way trump is going to lose this election is if there is fraud or there is a massive conspiracy to keep him from becoming president, and we are not going to let that happen. so if you have many many people, millions of people, who are primed for that sort of cause, who believe that, the potential for dramatic action is quite high. as well, you had the militia groups, and they had been talking for years about a civil war. they had been saying for years we are on the cusp of a civil war. donald trump is forced from the white house and we will ignite a stash if donald trump is forced from the white house we will ignite a civil war.

then the boogaloo boys, they were a quasi-militia outfit who had been involved in legend attacks on law enforcement officers, bombs, guns, all across the country. we saw a lot of signs there might be something spectacular and bad. we just didn't know what it would be. host: we will show our audience of tonight's documentary, including this clip looking at the proud boys from the documentary. here it as. >> he says while brian james and the proud boys may have worked hard to push into the mainstream, many still subscribe to extremist beliefs. >> so this is a t-shirt in reference to the mass slaughter of jewish people during the holocaust. which stands for 6 million wasn't enough. their view is not to deny the holocaust but say the holocaust did not go far enough. >> so he is flying proud boys colors and he is clearly -- and these clearly neo-nazi ideas here. >> we get fixated on these different groups, and from my

perspective, i think it is more helpful to think about this as a broad worldview. >> the proud boys are led by henrique entario, a cuban-american man of color. what is going on with that? >> if you look at the history of the racist skinhead movement in the united states, any number of skinhead groups across the country would not be exclusively white. you have the capacity for people of various different backgrounds to embrace fascism as a worldview. i think, in many respects, that is what we deal with, a broad, fascist movement. host: professor there talking about embracing fasters and -- embracing fascism as a broad worldview. i think this is -- -- or other issues that have motivated them in the past.

guest: absolutely. with a lot of the groups we saw, there was profound authoritarian streak in their politics. i remember noticing this at protests in portland, oregon when we were following the proud ago. and there were people wearing shirts paying all mosh to the -- homage to the late dictator temperatures that that right-wing death squads or shirts that talk about throwing communists out of helicopters. this is a different politics and what we are seeing is a multiethnic fascist worldview. host: where did the proud boys originate? guest: the proud boys were founded by gavin mcginnis, one of the founders of the media empire. i didn't really pay attention to

him because i was more interested in more aggressive openly white supremacist outfits. over time, they became the dominant force on the streets and that was not something i saw coming. host: how about the boogaloo boys? guest: the boogaloo boys started coalescing online in 2019 and you can see them as an update to the militia movement of the 1990's. by that i mean they are full of jokes, they are big on irony, they spend a lot of time online, they are younger. in many ways, they are likely older militia government in that they are committed to a violent overthrow of the government. host: in reporting, these militia groups, have they been bolstered by the looser gun laws in the united states? guest: that is a great question.

it is hard to answer. i will tell you this, when i talk to folks in those movements, they senses creeping -- they sent this creeping -- they sense this creeping to her any and -- piranny. you can own many more types of guns and carry them many more places than you could 20 years ago. the gun laws are less restrictive than they used to be. i don't know why you would see in many of these states, the move to take away guns. it has really gone the opposite direction. host: how open were members of these groups to talking with you? guest: a lot of them were opened and it was a challenge for us to try to understand them and let viewers understand who these people are and what they

represent, while at the same time, not allowing them a platform to grow their communities and their groups. that was a constant filmmaking challenge for us. in some places -- cases, they wanted to use us to get their message out. host: they are also using what was not available, the proliferation of social media and the ability to get out their message, regardless of what the medium is. guest: i first started writing about extremist movements in the 1990's. it was remarkable because it was so hard for those groups to actually circulate information. it was so hard for them to get their books and their pamphlets out and find new recruits. it is the opposite now. it is so easy and so fast for

these groups to spread their ideas. for example, the boogaloo boys podcast that we talk about in the film in which the people in the boogaloo boys discuss openly and celebrate the idea of committing drive-by shootings on law enforcement and government officials, that is distributed by apple, spotify, all these big companies. host: did you talk to law enforcement in this documentary? guest: yes we did. we spoke to former law enforcement officials as well. what we sensed from them is deep concern across-the-board. there was a fear that we are facing potential mass casualty terror events by people who have been radicalized by these groups and they spin off on their own. i think there was a fear that it had taken a while for the

intelligence piece of this to catch up to what was actually happening in the country. there were a lot of fears. host: we have calls waiting period we want to play another clip from the film involving the warnings to white house advisor from elizabeth newman who resigned from the department of home and security in 2020. here is a look. [video clip] >> i need to see the movement for myself. i go to virginia where a boogaloo fellow is marching against the local gun ordinance. 50 protesters show up. they have body armor, assault rifles and outlawed high-capacity magazines. they carry igloo flags and wear hawaiian shirts and ironic patches. the group is led by mike dunn. >> how do you feel about today?

>> liberty shall not be infringed. >> gun postures like a season squad leader, but this does not look like a group that is going to lead a violent insurrection. i can see the threat they pose. boogaloo boys have demonstrated the potential to carry out acts of violence. some of the law enforcement and the intelligence community also saw this threat. i have been told that their concerns were rejected by the white house. >> among our community, we took it seriously, but you need that presidential level leadership saying this is a threat, we are going to use all of our tools to go after this threat. that never happened under trump. >> elizabeth newman was one of the top counterterrorism officials in the trump administration. she tried to one the white house about the rising threat of extremists, but the president and his allies claimed the threat was from black lives matter and antifa. >> does antifa exist?

it is not an organization. it is a movement. you have groups that associate with them. do they shelter protests? sure. is it a massive conspiracy to kill a lot of people? no. do know where that is? it is on the right in the weiser premises movement. it is in the militia movement, the boogaloo boys movement. [end video clip] host: are there radical forms, radical members in antifa? is it anywhere near the size of the boogaloo boys or the proud boys? guest: it is hard to get any kind of real numbers about antifa, harder than the militia groups and anybody else basically. they are much more into operational security. you can say for sure there were a lot of incidents that happened over the last year in which there were people in black

clothes that were dangerous and at times, violent incidents. no one is going to dispute that. when you look at federal arrests, more significant crimes, crimes that are terroristic in nature, we have seen a lot more that from these other movements. host: let's go to calls and hear first from maliki in texas. good morning. caller: first, i would like to say that the republican party itself is a socially acceptable fascist movement and this has been happening for the past 12 years. it has looked at policies like stop and frisk, blue lives matter, a right wing talk radio show, a lot of these other people who drum up things that are autocrat policies amongst

right-wing -- i just called them republicans. these are socially acceptable amongst that group. the republican party, like malcolm x said, the republican party is nothing but a bunch of white people who have nothing invested in the institution of democracy. they only participate in democracy as an oppressive measure against blacks. the natural thing is to go to an autocratic government because they look at the numbers and they see that democracy does not fit their agenda. what we have here now is an armed militia group, armed insurrection, we have the military wing, the armed wing of the republican party which has become the boogaloo boys, the proud boys, it has always been there. they have always had the ku klux klan, they have always had the police to do their two -- to do their footwork for the movement. host: are these groups closely

aligned with republicans? guest: they fall in two categories. there are groups that are very heavily trump is and i would say trumpist then they more broadly republican because trump is the person they more broadly identified with. and then there are groups that are more agnostic and less focused on trump and less devoted to trump. but i think he is a big part. if mitt romney had been president, if george w. bush had been president, i don't think these movements would have had the sort of energy that they have had. host: let's hear from christopher in marietta, california. caller: good morning. great conversation. just reflecting in the last week , the nation's capital, we have

national guard up there in barriers and we had that gentleman drives the vehicle -- drive the vehicle into police officers. where do you place that in reference to the boogaloo boys? would you say there movement is a more democrat-socialist agenda or more independent or republican? and secondly, how did you vote in this last election? guest: i don't ever talk about how i am voting and i have been registered independent for many years. here is what is up. the farrakhan movement, the nation of islam, i don't can put it in any political framework. it exists in its own space that transcends politics. host: to diana, livingston, new jersey, democrats line. go ahead. caller: good morning.

i watched a documentary last night called "no man's land," and it was all about how the org on national wildlife refuge -- the oregon national wildlife refuge and you saw how the fed lured them out and took them on a road and arrested them. then they went to court. a lot of them were just destruction of property, minor offenses. only one guy out of the whole group got the conspiracy. at the end, because they were found not guilty, they were all with their guns and say it was government overreach and they have formed antigovernment militias and they say, this is just the beginning. it made me see how much of this grew out of the waco and the

ruby ridge and the ted bundy, those type of groups, not really saying race, but it is -- they don't trust their government and that is why they need the guns and they for militias. i have two nephews in the service. one is in national guard, he is in washington, and he espouses also, the gun rights. i am like, how can you say you are against the government because you are supposed to be -- when you are supposed to be defending the government? host: we will get a response. guest: that is a fascinating question. we saw a lot of those between the armed and antigovernment militias. that is the question i asked as well. how can you get a government paycheck and be dedicated to overthrowing the government? it doesn't really compute for me. that is a common thing. what you have seen with the current regime at the department of defense is a very strong

concern about extremism we have not seen in recent decades. that has led to plans to draft a new order across the entire military that has led to the 60 day standdown that the military had in which all employees needed to have training on extremism. i think there is a real consequence within military leadership right now that there are serious problems with extremism. host: "american insurrection" here tonight on pbs, 9:00 central. reporting this morning, frontpage of the "the washington post" on the rise of insurrection is him. -- insurrectionism. " driven chiefly by white supremacists and antigovernment extremists on the far right

according to data compiled by the center for strategic and international studies, the surge reflects a growing trend from homegrown terrorism not seen in a quarter-century with right ring -- right wing if you miss a tax eclipsing those from the far and causing more death, the analysis shows." cameras in nevada, missouri. democrats line. cameron, you are on the air. ok, we will go to john in north hills, california. welcome. caller: i would like to ask the guest, what is the reluctance of the media to perpetrate this false narrative that blm is not a hate group and that they did not engage in insurrection for the entire summer of 2020 and they also co-opted with antifa. i don't know about you, but in

los angeles, blm earned over 1000, cars. that is inactive insurrection. they marched through my city screaming no justice, no peace, and what did the liberal politician student? they took a knee of acquiesce and did not explain where it went to. where did it go to? why are these violent groups not being characterized as hate groups by the media? what is the cause of this false negative -- false narrative? host: a.c. thompson, your response? guest: i don't think i would characterize blm as black supremacist. i would say it is a very loose network of people more than an organization. the debate of what is more important, the riots that

happened in the summer or the insurrection at the capital for this event or that event, that is not a debate i'm interested in having. i am not trying to weigh which is worse and which is more important. what we know from facts is that when you look at domestic terrorism, what has happened over the last 25 years, as you were just noting with the reporting based on csis information is that we see a lot more of these types of antigovernment and white supremacist and far-right attacks. host: you touched on this earlier, but a question from edward in new jersey, what is the endgame these groups want when they overthrow the usa? guest: it is different for everyone. if you look at the old line militias, they became very trump

-aligned in the last several years. as long as trump was the president, they were supportive of trump. when trump was no longer the president, then they swung back into full antigovernment mode. they talk relentlessly about the constitution and returning to a true interpretation of the foundational documents of this country. that is the thing that they are excited about and they are fixated on. when you get to the boogaloo boys, who are the more recent militia movement, the newer incarnation, they do a lot of the same talk, the constitution, the founding fathers. but they are very fixated on arcane tangents and libertarian theories. they talk about reducing all government to the point where basically the only functional government is your local sheriff

and your local county government and basically federal government withers away. host: the documentary also addresses the plot to kidnap michigan governor grisham -- michigan governor gretchen whitmer. i want to show you a segment and ask you your response. [video clip] >> police arrested 14 militia members and charge them with the plot to kidnap mitch and governor -- michigan governor whitmer, try them and potentially execute her for treason. >> we had a big problem with the governor, you know who i'm talking about, from michigan. >> four months, trump have been reeling against the governor and her restrictions. >> you have to get your governor to open up your state. lock them all up. >> the kidnapping plot against

the governor was a shocking escalation in tactics. not long after the arrests, i went to michigan to investigate. the fbi identified the militia behind the plot as the wolverine watchman. their social media is full of boogaloo iconography and law enforcement connected them to militia members in four states. among the people arrested for the kidnapping plot were joe morrison and his father-in-law, the founders of the wolverine watchman. also arrested was barry croft who prosecutors call probably the most committed violent extremists of the entire group. according to the fbi, some of them convened secret meetings at this vacuum store in grand rapids. an informant recorded the conversations.

they met in this basement. in one recording, a member describes a plan to seize the governor from her vacation home and put her on trial. snatch and grab, he tells the informant. grab the governor because, at that point, it is over. host: a.c. thompson, your voice describing that plot as a shocking escalation in tactics. what is the status of that case right now? guest: it is really two cases. there is a state case built around domestic terror charges and gain charges, perceiving the militia as a gang, stuff like that. there is a federal case that is a conspiracy case that is about the kidnapping. out of the two cases, one man has pleaded guilty.

the rest are still pleading not guilty and fighting their cases. we interviewed his attorney about the case and he said that his client felt like he had been dragged into something that was more extreme than he expected and seemed to be regretful about that and that was why he had pleaded guilty. i think that guilty plea is not going to be helpful for the other people in the federal case. i interviewed barry croft who is alleged to be one of the ringleaders of the federal case. what he said to me is, i believe that the u.s. government is run -- is basically a mob, that it is illegal military-ruled, that there is no legitimacy to the u.s. government. what he had said before being

arrested was that the tyrants, by which he meant elected officials, need to be killed, that they need to be hung and that anyone that he deemed to be acting in ways that work unconstitutional needed to die. that is the motivational point for him. barry is a member of the three presenters, a network of militias that showed up at the capitol and were involved in the insurrection, as well as having ties to the boogaloo boys and being part of this group of kidnapping plotters. host: you mentioned wolverine watchman. had you heard of them before? what are they about? guest: what we know is that they were a secretive militia started by pete and his son-in-law, joe morrison in rural michigan.

they got people together and trained. they shotguns, blue stuff up -- blew stuff up. the group evolved into a much more extreme thing that was plotting to kidnap the governor. they are all coming together last year at this time where we had the pandemic, covid restrictions, michigan had particularly strong restrictions that many were unhappy about. a lot of these guys were meeting at these events at the state capital in michigan, where the state capital was basically taken over by many armed gunmen. you can see that as a precursor to what happened in washington with the takeover of the u.s. capitol. that is where the skies first started meeting -- these guys first started meeting. host: just go to jacksonville,

florida, republican line. caller: i would like for you to check some things. the most fascist people in the world are the communist socialist who have murdered 100 million people. i was working overseas, south china sea, on computers, radio systems, and i was asked to look at some systems used to counter with the chinese were doing. they have a system that is the most advanced frequency system in the world. pavlov worked for stalin. he found that certain frequencies can invoke things like riots, hatred, etc. i looked at these things. number one, the chinese said they would move ahead of us economically and militarily by spending $10 million on this type of system. they have done that starting in 2014. trump said he did not like these

guys, arrest them. the next thing, here are the three parts you should study that have to do with the system. number one is quantum waves, number two is pavlov frequencies and number three is artificial. host: we will try to get one more call from richard in oklahoma. go ahead. caller: good morning. i have a couple of questions, more than a couple, actually. some questions i would like to ask mr. thompson. why don't you make one or two quick ones and we will try to get them for you. caller: can you first tell me what is your political appreciation -- affiliation? reporters tend to hide what their political affiliation. host: he already said earlier that he was an independent.

do you have another question? guest: -- caller: i am sorry that i missed that part. on your documentary slash piece of propaganda, can you tell us who -- guest: you call it a piece of propaganda when you have not seen it yet. i encourage you to wait and see it and tell me if you think it is propaganda. i spent six months traveling this country talking to people from all different political parties and different views. you can design on that. every time i come on this show, people asked me if i am a puppet, if i am funded by a left-wing conspiracy and the answer is no. host: a quick question, after doing the documentary and the interviews, are you optimistic or more worried about the future of some of these right-wing groups? guest: my worry is that we will

have another significant active terrorist violence in the next year. that is my concern. hopefully i am wrong. host: a.c. thompson, the correspondent on "american insurrection," airing tonight on pbs at 10:00 eastern and on youtube. thanks so much for joining us this morning. guest: thank you. host: that will wrap it up for this morning. coming up at 10:30, we will bring you coverage of capitol police officer billy evans lying in honor at the capitol rotunda as members of congress pay their respects. it is here on c-span, the c-span radio app and c-span.org. that will do it for our program as we leave you looking at the u.s. capitol waiting the arrival of officer evans.

♪ >> go to c-span.org/coronavirus for the federal response to the coronavirus pandemic. if you missed our live coverage, it is easy to find the latest briefings and the biden administration's response. use the interactive gallery of maps to follow the cases in the u.s. and worldwide. go to c-span.org/coronavirus. ♪ >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government, created by america's cable television

companies in 1979. today, we are brought to you by these television companies who provide c-span to viewers as a public service. ♪ >> a live look at the u.s. capitol here on tuesday morning, where u.s. capitol police officer william "billy" evans will lie in state. we expect to see officer evans' body arrive shortly and a memorial service for him beginning at 10:30 eastern. his body will then lion honor for the remainder of the day. later today, the house will gavel in the session for legislative work with a bill aiming to prevent medicare cuts on the calendar. we will have a live session of the house when they gavel in here on c-span. and to get us closer to the start of today'mo