>> "washington journal" continues. host: joining us next is pro-public a correspondent a.c. thompson. also, the correspondent for the documentary debuting tonight on frontline called "american insurrection." airs tonight beginning at 10:00 eastern and 9:00 central. welcome to "washington journal." guest: thanks for having me on. host: the peace is titled american insurrection. so much recently, the term insurrection has been used about the one singular day, the insurrection of the capital on january the sixth. your peace begins in charlottesville, in 2017. why is that? guest: really what we are looking at through the course of our film is the rise of insurgent, far-right movements during the trump era.

really, if you want to trace that, you go back to charlottesville. i was there, and you see the men in the streets that day and what their intentions were, the act of terror that occurred that day, killing. you can see a pretty straight line to what ends up happening at the capital. groups rebrand, they change their names, they modify their politics. but, in many ways, a lot of the same ideas that were innovating -- animating the people in charlottesville came to animating the people at the capital. host: how much deeper, though, the events in charlottesville, how many years was that in the making to get to such a public point, public display of that? caller: what's people who -- guest: what people who were there and involved in the white movement would say to me is, over and over again, "donald trump was the catalyst for me being out here in the streets." ""he started saying things i

believed in but didn't want to say, and i felt more comfortable saying -- comfortable participating in this movement when he became president or when he started running for president." what people in the film we made this time are saying to us is something different, they are saying the white power movement is over, people are not comfortable with those politics, but there is sort of a brand of extremism that is more palatable to people. you might call it civic nationalism, ultra nationalism, but that is the current wave that, in many ways, propelled the events of january 6. they were talking about the militia groups, the the proud boys -- groups, the proud boys, these types of outfits. host: our guest is a.c. thompson . the documentary airing on frontline is "american insurrection."

your calls are welcomed. republicans are (202) 748-8001. democrats are (202) 748-8000. independents and others, (202) 748-8002. how long did it put you -- did it take you to put the documentary together? guest: we started working on that right after the first presidential debate in which then president donald trump gave a shout out to the proud boys, the ultranationalist street gang. host: could you see then where the culmination would be, the culmination being the january 6 attack on the capital? could you see, back then, that event would be possible, given the people you are interviewing, things you are seeing for these groups? guest: the thing we kept viewing as we were talking to people was that something dramatic, spectacular, and very bad was going to happen. we just didn't know what it was. there were so many people that

we talked to who said, look, the only way trump is going to lose this election is if there is fraud or there is a massive conspiracy to keep him from becoming president, and we are not going to let that happen. so if you have many many people, millions of people, who are primed for that sort of cause, who believe that, the potential for dramatic action is quite high. as well, you had the militia groups, and they had been talking for years about a civil war. they had been saying for years we are on the cusp of a civil war. donald trump is forced from the white house and we will ignite a stash if donald trump is forced from the white house we will ignite a civil war. then the boogaloo boys, they were a quasi-militia outfit who had been involved in legend attacks on law enforcement officers, bombs, guns, all across the country. we saw a lot of signs there might be something spectacular and bad. we just didn't know what it would be. host: we will show our audience

of tonight's documentary, including this clip looking at the proud boys from the documentary. here it as. >> he says while brian james and the proud boys may have worked hard to push into the mainstream, many still subscribe to extremist beliefs. >> so this is a t-shirt in reference to the mass slaughter of jewish people during the holocaust. which stands for 6 million wasn't enough. their view is not to deny the holocaust but say the holocaust did not go far enough. >> so he is flying proud boys colors and he is clearly -- and these clearly neo-nazi ideas here. >> we get fixated on these different groups, and from my perspective, i think it is more helpful to think about this as a broad worldview. >> the proud boys are led by henrique entario, a cuban-american man of color. what is going on with that? >> if you look at the history of

the racist skinhead movement in the united states, any number of skinhead groups across the country would not be exclusively white. you have the capacity for people of various different backgrounds to embrace fascism as a worldview. i think, in many respects, that is what we deal with, a broad, fascist movement. host: professor there talking about embracing fasters and -- embracing fascism as a broad worldview. i think this is -- -- or other issues that have motivated them in the past. guest: absolutely. with a lot of the groups we saw, there was profound authoritarian streak in their politics. i remember noticing this at protests in portland, oregon when we were following the proud ago. and there were people wearing

shirts paying all mosh to the -- homage to the late dictator temperatures that that right-wing death squads or shirts that talk about throwing communists out of helicopters. this is a different politics and what we are seeing is a multiethnic fascist worldview. host: where did the proud boys originate? guest: the proud boys were founded by gavin mcginnis, one of the founders of the media empire. i didn't really pay attention to him because i was more interested in more aggressive openly white supremacist outfits. over time, they became the dominant force on the streets and that was not something i saw coming. host: how about the boogaloo boys? guest: the boogaloo boys started

coalescing online in 2019 and you can see them as an update to the militia movement of the 1990's. by that i mean they are full of jokes, they are big on irony, they spend a lot of time online, they are younger. in many ways, they are likely older militia government in that they are committed to a violent overthrow of the government. host: in reporting, these militia groups, have they been bolstered by the looser gun laws in the united states? guest: that is a great question. it is hard to answer. i will tell you this, when i talk to folks in those movements, they senses creeping -- they sent this creeping -- they sense this creeping to her any and -- piranny.

you can own many more types of guns and carry them many more places than you could 20 years ago. the gun laws are less restrictive than they used to be. i don't know why you would see in many of these states, the move to take away guns. it has really gone the opposite direction. host: how open were members of these groups to talking with you? guest: a lot of them were opened and it was a challenge for us to try to understand them and let viewers understand who these people are and what they represent, while at the same time, not allowing them a platform to grow their communities and their groups. that was a constant filmmaking challenge for us. in some places -- cases, they

wanted to use us to get their message out. host: they are also using what was not available, the proliferation of social media and the ability to get out their message, regardless of what the medium is. guest: i first started writing about extremist movements in the 1990's. it was remarkable because it was so hard for those groups to actually circulate information. it was so hard for them to get their books and their pamphlets out and find new recruits. it is the opposite now. it is so easy and so fast for these groups to spread their ideas. for example, the boogaloo boys podcast that we talk about in the film in which the people in the boogaloo boys discuss openly and celebrate the idea of committing drive-by shootings on

law enforcement and government officials, that is distributed by apple, spotify, all these big companies. host: did you talk to law enforcement in this documentary? guest: yes we did. we spoke to former law enforcement officials as well. what we sensed from them is deep concern across-the-board. there was a fear that we are facing potential mass casualty terror events by people who have been radicalized by these groups and they spin off on their own. i think there was a fear that it had taken a while for the intelligence piece of this to catch up to what was actually happening in the country. there were a lot of fears. host: we have calls waiting period we want to play another clip from the film involving the warnings to white house advisor

from elizabeth newman who resigned from the department of home and security in 2020. here is a look. [video clip] >> i need to see the movement for myself. i go to virginia where a boogaloo fellow is marching against the local gun ordinance. 50 protesters show up. they have body armor, assault rifles and outlawed high-capacity magazines. they carry igloo flags and wear hawaiian shirts and ironic patches. the group is led by mike dunn. >> how do you feel about today? >> liberty shall not be infringed. >> gun postures like a season squad leader, but this does not look like a group that is going to lead a violent insurrection. i can see the threat they pose. boogaloo boys have demonstrated the potential to carry out acts

of violence. some of the law enforcement and the intelligence community also saw this threat. i have been told that their concerns were rejected by the white house. >> among our community, we took it seriously, but you need that presidential level leadership saying this is a threat, we are going to use all of our tools to go after this threat. that never happened under trump. >> elizabeth newman was one of the top counterterrorism officials in the trump administration. she tried to one the white house about the rising threat of extremists, but the president and his allies claimed the threat was from black lives matter and antifa. >> does antifa exist? it is not an organization. it is a movement. you have groups that associate with them. do they shelter protests? sure. is it a massive conspiracy to kill a lot of people? no. do know where that is? it is on the right in the weiser premises movement. it is in the militia movement,

the boogaloo boys movement. [end video clip] host: are there radical forms, radical members in antifa? is it anywhere near the size of the boogaloo boys or the proud boys? guest: it is hard to get any kind of real numbers about antifa, harder than the militia groups and anybody else basically. they are much more into operational security. you can say for sure there were a lot of incidents that happened over the last year in which there were people in black clothes that were dangerous and at times, violent incidents. no one is going to dispute that. when you look at federal arrests, more significant crimes, crimes that are terroristic in nature, we have seen a lot more that from these

other movements. host: let's go to calls and hear first from maliki in texas. good morning. caller: first, i would like to say that the republican party itself is a socially acceptable fascist movement and this has been happening for the past 12 years. it has looked at policies like stop and frisk, blue lives matter, a right wing talk radio show, a lot of these other people who drum up things that are autocrat policies amongst right-wing -- i just called them republicans. these are socially acceptable amongst that group. the republican party, like malcolm x said, the republican party is nothing but a bunch of white people who have nothing invested in the institution of

democracy. they only participate in democracy as an oppressive measure against blacks. the natural thing is to go to an autocratic government because they look at the numbers and they see that democracy does not fit their agenda. what we have here now is an armed militia group, armed insurrection, we have the military wing, the armed wing of the republican party which has become the boogaloo boys, the proud boys, it has always been there. they have always had the ku klux klan, they have always had the police to do their two -- to do their footwork for the movement. host: are these groups closely aligned with republicans? guest: they fall in two categories. there are groups that are very heavily trump is and i would say trumpist then they more broadly republican because trump is the

person they more broadly identified with. and then there are groups that are more agnostic and less focused on trump and less devoted to trump. but i think he is a big part. if mitt romney had been president, if george w. bush had been president, i don't think these movements would have had the sort of energy that they have had. host: let's hear from christopher in marietta, california. caller: good morning. great conversation. just reflecting in the last week , the nation's capital, we have national guard up there in barriers and we had that gentleman drives the vehicle -- drive the vehicle into police officers. where do you place that in reference to the boogaloo boys? would you say there movement is

a more democrat-socialist agenda or more independent or republican? and secondly, how did you vote in this last election? guest: i don't ever talk about how i am voting and i have been registered independent for many years. here is what is up. the farrakhan movement, the nation of islam, i don't can put it in any political framework. it exists in its own space that transcends politics. host: to diana, livingston, new jersey, democrats line. go ahead. caller: good morning. i watched a documentary last night called "no man's land," and it was all about how the org on national wildlife refuge -- the oregon national wildlife refuge and you saw how the fed

lured them out and took them on a road and arrested them. then they went to court. a lot of them were just destruction of property, minor offenses. only one guy out of the whole group got the conspiracy. at the end, because they were found not guilty, they were all with their guns and say it was government overreach and they have formed antigovernment militias and they say, this is just the beginning. it made me see how much of this grew out of the waco and the ruby ridge and the ted bundy, those type of groups, not really saying race, but it is -- they don't trust their government and that is why they need the guns and they for militias. i have two nephews in the service. one is in national guard, he is in washington, and he espouses

also, the gun rights. i am like, how can you say you are against the government because you are supposed to be -- when you are supposed to be defending the government? host: we will get a response. guest: that is a fascinating question. we saw a lot of those between the armed and antigovernment militias. that is the question i asked as well. how can you get a government paycheck and be dedicated to overthrowing the government? it doesn't really compute for me. that is a common thing. what you have seen with the current regime at the department of defense is a very strong concern about extremism we have not seen in recent decades. that has led to plans to draft a new order across the entire military that has led to the 60 day standdown that the military

had in which all employees needed to have training on extremism. i think there is a real consequence within military leadership right now that there are serious problems with extremism. host: "american insurrection" here tonight on pbs, 9:00 central. reporting this morning, frontpage of the "the washington post" on the rise of insurrection is him. -- insurrectionism. " driven chiefly by white supremacists and antigovernment extremists on the far right according to data compiled by the center for strategic and international studies, the surge reflects a growing trend from homegrown terrorism not seen in a quarter-century with right ring -- right wing if you miss a tax eclipsing those from the far and causing more death, the

analysis shows." cameras in nevada, missouri. democrats line. cameron, you are on the air. ok, we will go to john in north hills, california. welcome. caller: i would like to ask the guest, what is the reluctance of the media to perpetrate this false narrative that blm is not a hate group and that they did not engage in insurrection for the entire summer of 2020 and they also co-opted with antifa. i don't know about you, but in los angeles, blm earned over 1000, cars. that is inactive insurrection. they marched through my city screaming no justice, no peace, and what did the liberal politician student? they took a knee of acquiesce

and did not explain where it went to. where did it go to? why are these violent groups not being characterized as hate groups by the media? what is the cause of this false negative -- false narrative? host: a.c. thompson, your response? guest: i don't think i would characterize blm as black supremacist. i would say it is a very loose network of people more than an organization. the debate of what is more important, the riots that happened in the summer or the insurrection at the capital for this event or that event, that is not a debate i'm interested in having. i am not trying to weigh which is worse and which is more important. what we know from facts is that when you look at domestic

terrorism, what has happened over the last 25 years, as you were just noting with the reporting based on csis information is that we see a lot more of these types of antigovernment and white supremacist and far-right attacks. host: you touched on this earlier, but a question from edward in new jersey, what is the endgame these groups want when they overthrow the usa? guest: it is different for everyone. if you look at the old line militias, they became very trump -aligned in the last several years. as long as trump was the president, they were supportive of trump. when trump was no longer the president, then they swung back into full antigovernment mode. they talk relentlessly about the

constitution and returning to a true interpretation of the foundational documents of this country. that is the thing that they are excited about and they are fixated on. when you get to the boogaloo boys, who are the more recent militia movement, the newer incarnation, they do a lot of the same talk, the constitution, the founding fathers. but they are very fixated on arcane tangents and libertarian theories. they talk about reducing all government to the point where basically the only functional government is your local sheriff and your local county government and basically federal government withers away. host: the documentary also addresses the plot to kidnap michigan governor grisham -- michigan governor gretchen whitmer. i want to show you a segment and ask you your response.

[video clip] >> police arrested 14 militia members and charge them with the plot to kidnap mitch and governor -- michigan governor whitmer, try them and potentially execute her for treason. >> we had a big problem with the governor, you know who i'm talking about, from michigan. >> four months, trump have been reeling against the governor and her restrictions. >> you have to get your governor to open up your state. lock them all up. >> the kidnapping plot against the governor was a shocking escalation in tactics. not long after the arrests, i went to michigan to investigate. the fbi identified the militia behind the plot as the wolverine

watchman. their social media is full of boogaloo iconography and law enforcement connected them to militia members in four states. among the people arrested for the kidnapping plot were joe morrison and his father-in-law, the founders of the wolverine watchman. also arrested was barry croft who prosecutors call probably the most committed violent extremists of the entire group. according to the fbi, some of them convened secret meetings at this vacuum store in grand rapids. an informant recorded the conversations. they met in this basement. in one recording, a member describes a plan to seize the governor from her vacation home and put her on trial. snatch and grab, he tells the informant. grab the governor because, at that point, it is over.

host: a.c. thompson, your voice describing that plot as a shocking escalation in tactics. what is the status of that case right now? guest: it is really two cases. there is a state case built around domestic terror charges and gain charges, perceiving the militia as a gang, stuff like that. there is a federal case that is a conspiracy case that is about the kidnapping. out of the two cases, one man has pleaded guilty. the rest are still pleading not guilty and fighting their cases. we interviewed his attorney about the case and he said that his client felt like he had been dragged into something that was

more extreme than he expected and seemed to be regretful about that and that was why he had pleaded guilty. i think that guilty plea is not going to be helpful for the other people in the federal case. i interviewed barry croft who is alleged to be one of the ringleaders of the federal case. what he said to me is, i believe that the u.s. government is run -- is basically a mob, that it is illegal military-ruled, that there is no legitimacy to the u.s. government. what he had said before being arrested was that the tyrants, by which he meant elected officials, need to be killed, that they need to be hung and that anyone that he deemed to be acting in ways that work unconstitutional needed to die. that is the motivational point

for him. barry is a member of the three presenters, a network of militias that showed up at the capitol and were involved in the insurrection, as well as having ties to the boogaloo boys and being part of this group of kidnapping plotters. host: you mentioned wolverine watchman. had you heard of them before? what are they about? guest: what we know is that they were a secretive militia started by pete and his son-in-law, joe morrison in rural michigan. they got people together and trained. they shotguns, blue stuff up -- blew stuff up. the group evolved into a much more extreme thing that was plotting to kidnap the governor.

they are all coming together last year at this time where we had the pandemic, covid restrictions, michigan had particularly strong restrictions that many were unhappy about. a lot of these guys were meeting at these events at the state capital in michigan, where the state capital was basically taken over by many armed gunmen. you can see that as a precursor to what happened in washington with the takeover of the u.s. capitol. that is where the skies first started meeting -- these guys first started meeting. host: just go to jacksonville, florida, republican line. caller: i would like for you to check some things. the most fascist people in the world are the communist socialist who have murdered 100 million people. i was working overseas, south china sea, on computers, radio

systems, and i was asked to look at some systems used to counter with the chinese were doing. they have a system that is the most advanced frequency system in the world. pavlov worked for stalin. he found that certain frequencies can invoke things like riots, hatred, etc. i looked at these things. number one, the chinese said they would move ahead of us economically and militarily by spending $10 million on this type of system. they have done that starting in 2014. trump said he did not like these guys, arrest them. the next thing, here are the three parts you should study that have to do with the system. number one is quantum waves, number two is pavlov frequencies and number three is artificial. host: we will try to get one

more call from richard in oklahoma. go ahead. caller: good morning. i have a couple of questions, more than a couple, actually. some questions i would like to ask mr. thompson. why don't you make one or two quick ones and we will try to get them for you. caller: can you first tell me what is your political appreciation -- affiliation? reporters tend to hide what their political affiliation. host: he already said earlier that he was an independent. do you have another question? guest: -- caller: i am sorry that i missed that part. on your documentary slash piece of propaganda, can you tell us who --

guest: you call it a piece of propaganda when you have not seen it yet. i encourage you to wait and see it and tell me if you think it is propaganda. i spent six months traveling this country talking to people from all different political parties and different views. you can design on that. every time i come on this show, people asked me if i am a puppet, if i am funded by a left-wing conspiracy and the answer is no. host: a quick question, after doing the documentary and the interviews, are you optimistic or more worried about the future of some of these right-wing groups? guest: my worry is that we will have another significant active terrorist violence in the next year. that is my concern. hopefully i am wrong. host: a.c. thompson, the correspondent on "american insurrection," airing tonight on

pbs at 10:00 eastern and on youtube.