the average of environmental groups all have budgets over $100 million per year and are really big business. i do not represent the oil industry, i am not paid by the oil industry, i am not a lobbyist for it. my view is somewhat contrary to what the oil industry or what any industry wants. i want low energy prices, low wind power prices, low oil prices. everybody in the energy, that is good for consumers and the economy. everybody in the industry once i prices, so the idea i am a lobbyist for the oil industry is absurd. host: myron ebell is with the competitive enterprise institute . may i add to the folks on twitter who say your dog was a good dog during the segment>> ""

continues. host: continuing our climate discussion after earth day and on day two of president biden's virtual climate summit, we are joined by bob dean's from the national defense national -- from the natural resources defense council. president biden's announcement to cut u.s. emissions in half by 2030. guest: it's great to be with you. that is terrific news. this is what the science tells us we need to do after all. the science is clear that we have got to cut the dangerous carbon pollution from burning fossil fuels in half by 2030, and set the stage for stopping in the atmosphere altogether by 2050 if we are going to have any chance of averting the worst impacts of climate change. so that is all clear. this is what the science says we need. number two, we can do it. we are well on our way, about a quarter of the way, toward

getting all of our electricity in this country from nonfossil fuel purposes. we've got to get half of it from nonfossil fuels. we are talking about mostly wind and solar, hydropower and other sources. we are halfway there. we know we can do it. here's how we do it, we invest in efficiency, do more with less waste, we invest in electric vehicles, invest in more wind and solar, more clean, homegrown american power, and invest in modernizing that system. this creates millions of good pay jobs and fuels strong, durable, broad-based recovery that we need, and does it in a way that struck a blow for equity and injustice in this country because we know that it comes from introducing people of color who are paying the highest price for climates, hazard, harm, and the danger of fossil fuel production. if you think about it like you would a family, you are sitting around a kitchen table and saying, the goals here, we are

trying to save up for down payment on our home or send junior to college in a few years or grandma will have to need money set aside for health care later in life, and you say, how are we going to get there? what if we cut our spending 5%, 5% per year. we cut our spending 5% and put that money in savings. pretty quick, it adds up and we are able to meet the goals. that is exactly what this is. we know we have to do it. that is what the science tells us. we know the benefits of doing it. host: the new york times, in their wrap-up of president biden yesterday talking about some of the models out there, possible paths to achieving a 50% reduction in emissions by 2030. you mentioned one of the things they talked about, half the country and their electricity coming from renewable resources but this is some of what is else in those models. new natural gas plant would be largely built with capture -- technology to capture carbon

dioxide. all of the coal plant would be shut down unless they can to -- they can also capture their missions. new cars and suvs would be battery-powered, all new buildings would have to be heated by electricity rather than actual gas. the nations deal, chemical industries would have to adopt a new energy efficiency targets, oil and gas producers would have to slash their emissions of methane in the nation's would have to be reworked so they pull 20% more carbon dioxide out of the air than today. as all of that achievable, especially by 2030? guest: absolutely. with strategic investment, the kind of investment the president has aligned out and common sense standards that set real goals we can achieve, and with other kinds of tax credits and other incentives, policy that is aligned to getting us that way, sure we can do it. one came out a couple weeks go

with our own analysis of how we get there. in our analysis, we are looking at something similar to what you cited, we are looking at getting half of our electricity from nonfossil fuel sources. we are half the way there but now and already getting 25% of our electricity from nonfossil fuel forces. we look at about 55% of new-car sales being electric. that is aligned with what the industry is doing. big car motors like general motors, ford, voltswagen, volvo are said to invest $257 billion between now and 2030 to produce electric cars. they see the writing on the wall and they know where this trend is going. so that is in line. striking the health of our wetlands, croplands, and forest lands is in our interest on so many levels, and as you said earlier, these systems naturally

absorb carbon dioxide from the air and lock it away to help the soil. that is what we'll want to do. host: phone lines if you want to join the conversation and bob dean's is with us. republicans can call in at c-span.org -- can call in at (202) 748-8001. democrats (202) 748-8000. independents (202) 748-8002. as a practical matter, are these pledges 10 years in the future, are they helpful for presidents to make. would it be more accountable of joe biden said this is what is going to have been by 2024 or maybe 2028? guest: i think when you set this kind of a tenure goal because you recognized we are talking about structural economic shift, talking about a just and equitable transition away from the fuels that have been powering this country for generations to cleaner, smarter ways, it is a recognition we did not get here overnight and will not fix it overnight. over time, if we have a plan, if

we set our goal, we can do this, we can drive innovation and american enterprise and get the best of this collective genius of this nation on this mission and we will achieve it no question. host: i figured you want to respond to police one of the statements by myron people and our last segment of the "washington journal". he said total climate change has been beneficial to humanity. do you want to respond to that. guest: sure. i friend myron must not have been reading the papers the last several years. here's what we know. since 1970, the first earth day, yesterday was earth day. since the firth -- first earth day in 1970, and burned more coal, oil, and gas locally then in all of human history before that. let that sink in for up second. here the impact. we have added to the concentration of carbon monoxide in the atmosphere.

it is up 30% since 1972 its highest level in 3.6 million years. who says so? the national oceanic and atmospheric administration. the gold standard for climate data worldwide. we are in a world of hurt. what difference does it make? we wrapped up the hottest decade since global record keeping began in 1880. and we have seen the consequences. we are not talking about computer models, we are talking about looking out the kitchen window, talking about record hurricanes that lashed our southern coast last year. the rate chose, when storms followed by drought that devastated our midwest ranches, farms, and communities, and wildfires that torched enough western land to cover the state of new jersey. all of this and more continues to get worse if we do as myron suggests and continue to ignore

the problem, taking it down the road, and taking things out a ground and setting them on fire like we have been doing since the dawn of civilization. we have cleaner, better ways to do it. host: we head down to louisiana, james, a republican. you are on with bob dean's of the natural resources defense council. caller: good morning. first, i want to ask why you invite a lawyer to talk about science. he certainly did not bring any real science with him. we are at a lull in hurricanes, not at a record hurricane era. tornadoes are at their all-time low. the wildfires in california forest mismanagement. how come you don't have somebody bring science onto the program. the 30's was the hottest decade ever. he talks about equity and poor people. when you increase the price of gas 40% over three months, that hurts poor people the most. when you cancel the keystone pipeline and put 40,000 people

out of work, that is working class people that lose their jobs, and there are no green jobs to just jump in. there are no things to replace. i want to know how much money the national resource council gets from russian to keep the price of oil so high that russia can keep selling high-priced oil and bob can keep coming to his studio in his suv. host: let's give bob dean's a chance to respond. as you do, do you want to talk about your credentials on this issue? guest: are you talking about me or james? host: you, mr. dean's. guest: john, i was a journalist for 30 years and i came to the natural resources defense council 12 years ago. what i'm trying to do is tell the truth about one's happening to the environment and health -- help advance our work, seeking policy solutions to help all of our people. we have attorneys that do hold leaders to account with our laws

and courts. you bet james is right about that. i think james, it sounds like he bundled a lot of things in there, but i think his main concern seems to be about jobs for working-class americans. i hear you, james. i am with you. d.c. is with you on that. we are all about solutions that expand prosperity for all people and create jobs. let me tell you what i'm talking about. today, there are 3.4 million americans who get up every day, suit up, roll up their sleeves, and go to work, helping us to become more efficient in our workplace and homes, help us get more clean, homegrown american power from the wind and sun, help us to build right here in this country, some of the best electric cars anywhere in the world and help us modernize the grid and storage system so we do not have catastrophic outages likely suffered in texas last winter. that is what this is all about,

3.4 million jobs, and these jobs pay 25% more on average than the national medium -- median. we will create millions more good paying, clean energy jobs as we lead a just and equitable transition toward a low carbon economy. we will not leave anybody behind. we are talking about keeping -- helping people in appalachia, and louisiana, and the oil and gas patch, making sure these people's pensions are protected, that they have extended unemployment benefits, that they have gotten access to training so they have an on-ramp to the clean energy economy if they so choose. so we are thinking along the lines, i am breaking from the question and thank you for calling. host: the caller seemed to imply the nrdc gets funding from the russian government. do you want to talk about that? guest: of course not. that is complete nonsense. we are funded by our supporters, our donors and foundations.

we have 3.3 million supporters nationwide, and that is where we are funded. host: this is charles, a democrat from the buckeye state, good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to know why nobody will say anything about all of the energy that is going to the pipeline that isn't even going in the united states. it is going overseas. it is going to be refined here and shipped out, and then another thing is nicola tesla had free energy for everybody, but they stopped him. when he died in new york, they took all of his papers and the government has those papers. why don't they release those papers so they can figure out how to go ahead and do the experiments he was running to provide energy for everybody. host: i don't know how up you

are on tesla's experiments, but you want to take that? guest: it is always great to hear from the buckeye state. we are not yet figured out how to find free energy. we look forward to the day when some but he figures that out, but i will tell you, i will answer your first question. we are producing 16.5 million barrels of oil every day, oil and natural gas liquids, which are processed in a similar way. we are exporting 8.5 million barrels per day of petroleum products, crude oil and refined products. our communities in ohio, in texas, in oklahoma, in north dakota, they are suffering the damage, the harm, the danger of this production. it is being shipped overseas to our competitors abroad, and the

oil companies are making a profit. in other words, big profits for big oil and big risk for the rest of us. we think that is wrong. i appreciate your question. host: to greg in tennessee, republican, good morning. >> -- caller: thanks for taking my call. my thing is this green new deal thing wants to give a lot of money to the car manufacturers to produce electric cars. am i on? host: and your concern about electric cars? caller: general motors is moving all of their plans to mexico. guest: general motors is investing heavily in domestic plans. i think they have plans to invest $22 billion between now and 2030 to build electric cars here in this country. that is no small thing.

that money will grow as well, because general motors -- motors, if you notice, six weeks ago, the chairwoman of the company pledged general motors would be all electric in 2035, 14 years from now, not that long away. why is that happening? they see the benefits of electric cars and see people are shifting that way, this assad toll shift can happen quickly, but china is devoting itself to electric cars. even sooner than the united states, one out of everything cars -- every three cars sold in the world is sold out of china. the entire industry is shifting to electric. there are parts of the country right now where it may be difficult to drive a car and it may make sense for the next several years for some people, but where do not make sense, it is real -- it is a real improvement from efficiency. when i get into an internal combustion engine car, 80% of the energy is wasted because of

the inefficiency of internal combustion engine and because i'm burning gas while i'm sitting at stop signs, stop lights, waiting in park lights, that sort of thing. when i put 10 gallons of gasoline in my car, eight gallons is wasted. only two gallons move me forward. in an electric car, it flips the equation. 70% of energy used electric cars takes us where we need to go. that is a huge difference. it is just about doing things in a smarter, cleaner way. host: to napa, california. rick, a democrat. good morning. caller: good morning. sweet jesus, that first caller, how bad does the environment have to get before he gives up his adolescent lacked -- adolescent act of rebellion? for most conservatives, this is more about owning the liberals. 90% of scientists say the climate is warming because of

our actions. i see it all of the time in california. the year we have the napa fire, we had two straight weeks of 100 plus degrees weather, and that never happened before in october. the forests are bad and i drive an electric car. i have solar panels on my roof. it has not affected me one bit. it saved me a lot of money. my daughter gets her solar panels started up today, and my mate -- my neighbors are starting to do it. california is leading the way. we get 30% of our power from renewables, and we can do this. i just do not know why the cons want to go against it. guest: i really don't have anything to add besides california has been leading the way in so many important ways with cleaner energy for quite some time. california understands the problem.

these wildfires are real. host: john is in california, staying in california, a republican, good morning. caller: good morning. i have a question about the science. one thing i have been watching is that our son is turning into a red star. the last 20 years, we have had more solar flares and sunspots. we have had a magma burst a couple years ago that went the other way that, had it hit the earth, it would have wiped out most of the communications on earth. so what we're dealing with is a sun that's, every day, gets hotter and bigger. hotter and bigger. that is what is driving the climate change. to an electric car, the real solution is a 500,000 mile car. a car that can go for a long distance because the electric cars only last 100,000 miles,

and then you have to buy a new one. they have to make plastics, have to make steel, have to put all of these costs into making these new cars, so if you can make a 500,000 mile car and not have these manufacturing pollution to offset your gas savings, you could maybe make a dent. but what has happened is it is politicized and we are not getting the science we are not getting the science about the sun, not getting anything real about the real cost of climate change, we are getting people that will punish american citizens by raising gas prices, by raising -- cutting jobs, by making people poorer, and that is how we will fight the climate. host: mr. deans? guest: let's talk about where

our information is coming from. it is coming from the national academy of sciences, created by congress during the civil war to tell us the bedrock truth about what is happening in our country. it is coming from the national oceanic and atmospheric administration, the gold standard on climate information and interpretation worldwide. it is coming from the national air not mix and space administration, the folks who put a man on the moon. it is coming from people who were building lasers when chuck berry wrote roll over beethoven. these people know what they are talking about. they know about sunspots, they know what is happening in the universe, they know all of this. here's what we know. we know that since 1970 we have been increasing the amount of carbon dioxide in the global atmosphere by 30%. we know that has led to the hottest decade on record. we know we have more carbon in the atmosphere now than any other time.

this is a problem. the scientists who know what they're talking about telus it is a problem and a successful country acts on sound science, acts on the rule of law, on what is in the public interest, and moves us forward. that is what we are talking about doing. host: a couple minutes left with bob dean's, the engagement director of the natural resources defense council and author back in 2012 of the book reckless, the political assault on the american environment. that book coming out in 2012. is there an update for 2021? what would you say in that update? i think what i would say, and in view of some of the comments i've heard today, i think it is a crying shame that some people regard commonsense standards that we all depend on to protect our environment and public health as a partisan issue. this is a manifestation of a larger source of division in

this country that is of great concern, because look at the history now. the greatest conservationist president in history was teddy roosevelt, a republican president. dwight eisenhower, another republican president, set aside the national wildlife rescue -- refuge so future americans could enjoy this country the way the first americans sought. ronald reagan went after gasoline, george h dubya bush went after acid rain and signed the most environmental legislation in history, the clean air act which has saved hundreds of thousands of lives. even george w. bush and his last state of the union address said we have a problem in this country. we are addicted to oil. richard nixon created the environmental protection agency. this idea that comets and protection of our environment should be a red state or blue state issue, that this is a new

idea. it is a pernicious idea, not moving us forward. we need to get around this idea that we are united in wanting to leave our children a livable world. it is that simple. host: sounds like you made an update to the book? guest: i'm thinking about it. thanks for the question. host: scott in utah, good morning. caller: good morning. i want to thank you for the work you are doing. it seems to me that some people want to stick their head in the sand, and i see them driving bigger and bigger pickup trucks. like you were saying, the battery technology will just improve. all of the technology will improve. batteries will get wider and more efficient and right now, i am driving a four-cylinder small pickup until i can get my hands on an electric vehicle, but i am a business owner and have had to change my business two to three times to adapt to the times. how long have these people known

that this is the way things are going and they just leave, marks on the industry and do not want to progress into what we know is coming. host: what kind of business? caller: i have a home improvement company. i have done signing and awnings. i had the changeover from siding to awnings as i got older. i have had to make a lot of adjustments. now, i am semiretired. i have made adjustments over the years. i have had to, and that is what needs to happen with these people. they need to look ahead. host: have you made any adjustments specifically because of the climate issue, has a change how you did your work? caller: yes. another thing, i go to hawaii in the winter, and i've been fortunate enough to do that. but yeah, i have another idea about what they were talking about taxing vehicles. in hawaii, they tax them on

weight for the roads, so they could text these electric vehicles, the weight of the vehicle for wear and tear on the roads, and as they get more efficient and lighter, that will work. number one is to thank this gentleman for the work he is doing. host: thanks for the call, scott. guest: scott is a great example of a hard-working person who is specialized in home renovation and repair. this is one of the fields benefiting right now from the shift in clean energy because, as we approve -- improve the efficiency of our homes, we are talking about jobs for roofers, carpenters, electricians, and more broadly for steelworkers, tool and die makers, pipefitters, he's are real jobs for real americans, and we are benefiting from this. when a home is better insulated, it means lower energy costs and a healthier home. i'm grateful for that, but this is a good way to sum up the

potential here of clean energy investment through the experiences of someone like scott. as we continue to drive american innovation and enterprise, to drive american investment in a strategic way towards clean energy, we are playing into the economic play of our lifetime, because we know there will be more than $11 trillion invested in clean energy worldwide over just the next 2.5 decades. we want american workers and american businesses to be winners in the global marketplace, and that starts at home. that is what the biden plan is about. we know we can do it and we know the science tells us we have to do it and we can see the benefits before our eyes. host: this is mike in dallas, north carolina, a republican. good morning. >> good morning, sir. how are you? host: doing well. caller: i want to ask the

gentleman a couple questions. i am from a poorer state, and people drive a lot of these cars , and i don't know if you won't know what a junker or a clunker is, a car driving down the road and you look over and they might have two different vendors, two different colored fenders or doors, and you are wondering it how it is making a down the road. does he think this is a fashion statement? host: caller: do you think four e are driving these cars for a fashion statement? i'm driving a 12-year-old used car now. i can't afford an $80,000 tesla.

you are not with me. you think money pops out of thin air. guest: i don't believe that at all. what i believe is it's a sin and a shame that lower income people are the ones who are paying the highest price for the kind of environmental hazards we see from climate change. people in north carolina ravaged by hurricanes and record rainstorms. people are suffering from dirty water because of concentrated animal feeding operations. people across north carolina in the southeast of this country having to face the price of climate change, where that's from rising seas in our coastal communities or anything else, or mosquitoes, more text, or

disease. people have a right to clean water and clean air. they have a right to access. they should not be denied that because of their income or because of the race. that's what i believe. i believe in environmental justice. people of color in low income people are entitled to the kind of quality of life that comes from having a safe environment, a healthy environment, a clean environment. that's what the plan is all about. i am grateful for your call. host: that book again, the political assault on the american environment.

they talked about clean energy.