♪ >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government, provided by these television companies and more. ♪ nobody do it like we do ♪ >> they support c-span as a public service along with these other television providers giving you a front row seat to democracy. >> coming up this morning on washington journal. a debate over covid-19 vaccine passports with a senior fellow of the competitive enterprise institute and charles wilson from the national association of market law enforcement officers

talks about police reform efforts in the wake of derek chauvin's guilty verdict. later national geographic contribute writer phillip morris on his article about people sentenced to death row after being wrongfully convicted. ♪ host: good morning and welcome to washington journal. with more than half a million people debt of covid-19, the united states is vaccinating people at a rate of 3 million per day but the number of people getting shots is decreasing causing concerns among health officials. this comes as the biden administration announced that 200 million covert vaccinations have been given since he took office, double his initial goal of 100 million in 100 days. what do you think of what is

being done in united states, what do you think of the vaccine effort? we will have special lines for this conversation. if you are vaccinated, one or two shots, we want to hear from you at (202) 748-8000. if you have not been vaccinated yet but plan to, we want to hear from you about (202) 748-8001 -- at (202) 748-8001. if you are not going to get the vaccine because of medical or personal reasons, we want to know what you think, call us at (202) 748-8002. you can west texas at -- text us at (202) 748-8003. we are always reading on social media, twitter @cspanwj and facebook at facebook.com/c-span. the biden administration is announcing that it has vaccinated 200 million people in the first 100 days of his

administration. he is talking about ways to get more people vaccinated. i am going to read you story from nbc news -- a story from nbc news about what president biden plans to do. "president biden announced a plan to reimburse businesses that give workers paid time off to get vaccinated against covid-19 as he tilted reaching his goal of 200 million shots in his first 100 days. the tax credit will be funded by the covid-19 relief bill passed last month, it will be available to businesses with fewer than 500 employees, allowing up to $511 per day for each employee. the president called on all companies, regardless of size, to offer paid time off and offer other incentives such as gift cards and this is to encourage employees to get vaccinated."

president biden talked about what he planned to do and about the achievement of getting 200 million people vaccinated. here's what he had to say. [video clip] pres. biden: we still have work to do with target groups. we have made remarkable progress. as we continue, the time is now to open up a new phase of this effort. if you have been waiting for your turn, wait no longer. now is the time for everybody over 16 years of age to get vaccinated. the broad swath of america remains on vaccinated. the number of states where you are not eligible until this week, too many younger americans

may think that they do not need to get vaccinated. host: the information that the center for disease control and prevention puts out says about 30% of u.s. adults have been fully vaccinated, nearly half have received one dose. some paragraph from the story from the hill. "almost 30% of adults have been fully vaccinated according to data from the center for disease control. roughly 78.3 million americans have been fully vaccinated representing 30.3% of the population of that age group that are 18 and older. meanwhile 124.8 million adults have received one dose of the vaccine. representing 48.3% of the adult population."

what are you seeing? have you decided if you'll get the vaccine, have you seen people in line? let's go to our phone lines. let's start with michael from tonsil, maryland -- todd's ville, maryland. go ahead. caller: curious observation, to be even know the long-term side effects of something that we throughout in 10 months -- threw out in 10 months? we are in the, nobody knows what is it that unless you read it. people do not know the long-term side effects of this vaccine. the johnson & johnson has already shown it has side effects causing blood clots. many people have died from it already.

i am not getting it, i do not plan to get it. i am not a guinea pig, i am not a she. i do not follow blindly. host: michael, how are you ensuring that you will not get coronavirus? are you masking, wearing gloves, avoiding people or are you not worried about covid? caller: the influenza was a problem for years. people took vaccines, they never worked. god has given us an immune system, if you keep it strong you can fight off bacteria and diseases. the vaccine with a formaldehyde and chemicals in their do greater damage to your immune system than what they do for your immune system. people would know this if they got their head out of the sand and read what the government and these people are putting into

these and trying to hand it out to you for free. host: what do you say to the millions of people who have gotten the vaccine and have not had any side effects or ill effects? caller: you do not know the long-term effects. you do not know what it will do to your immune system. from one report that they censored and took off of the internet because unless they agree with what people are saying, they do not want to hear it. one person you do not know the long-term effects on your immune system. we already have an autoimmune disorder in this country caused by the stuff they are putting into your body. host: let's go to mary from virginia, good morning. caller: good morning sir. first time caller. my family, most of them are vaccinated. i thank donald trump for what he did by getting this started for us. he did make a statement when he did start it and nobody is

looking at what he did that was good and positive. i thank the lord that we have people out here that are willing to help with us to get to vaccines that do help us. everybody needs to take the vaccine. we took the flu shots in the beginning, people were afraid of it. i've never gotten the flu since i have gotten the vaccine. god puts people in place to help us have the right things we need at the right time. i give god the glory. host: when did you get your vaccine and how long did you have to wait? caller: i got my vaccine a little over one month ago. i have to wait a little while because i had a knee replacement. i got my second one and everything is fine. my husband got his through the v.a..

however what he make a decision -- everybody has to make a decision. host: gina which vaccine you got, was advisor or madonna -- pfizer or moderna? caller: i got the moderna and so did my husband. we had no side effects. i'm grateful that we have people trying to help us get to vaccines that we need to protect us from these diseases from around the world. host: an from dallas, texas, good morning. -- anne from dallas, texas, good morning. caller: how are you? host: well. go ahead. caller: i got my first dose about one month ago.

once they released the appointments, i got an appointment the same day for the following week. the city did it where you did not get out of your car. it took me 32 minutes from when i pulled in to pulling out. it was wonderful. host: are you seeing any side effects? sore arms? some people have reported flulike symptoms. have you had any side effects? caller: my arm was a little sore but no different from a flu shot. when i got my first vaccine, i took my 2.5 mile morning walk the next day, it took me five minutes longer because i did not push myself. i felt nothing. i am grateful. people talk about the side effects of taking faxing, the side effect of not taking the

vaccine can be death. i am going to take the vaccine. my doctor says to take it i take it. host: are you seeing hesitancy in your circle towards taking the vaccine among your family, friends, church members? are you seeing people talk about not getting it and what reasons if they are? caller: i had one extremely close friend, we have inference over 20 years, when it first came out she refused to take it because it was a trump vaccine. i ignored it and the cd says it has nothing to do with trump. the cdc did it, when it came time in texas, when you were under 65 and you could take the vaccine, that was the reason it took me so long. i was not 65 yet as soon as she could get an appointment, she got one and took it. she changed her mind.

some of the young people in the 30's are not taking it. as a 63-year-old without that lives alone, it was in my best interest. host: a call from maryland, manson good morning. caller: good morning. host: go ahead. caller: -- video, bittube.com, go research. these vaccines violate the nuremberg code of vaccine experimentation. it was passed by the executive board. every time you here's what he say that these are safe, they are lying to you. they have not been proven to be safe.

all of these people that are being rain washed by the mind control technology that use on tv -- being brainwashed by the my control technology that they use on tv. host: how do you plan on not getting the coronavirus? are you socially distancing, wearing masks or clubs, or are you not worrying? caller: black people are aware that we have been tested on before, with the tuskegee experiments. during the tuskegee experiments we were injected with diseases and was not told we had the diseases. the people that were lying to us were black doctors, nurses, white doctors, nurses. the people that were in charge of those tests was the cdc. host: are you not concerned

about the coronavirus pandemic? or do you think it does not exist? caller: every single person that is requiring that people take medicines that are not doctors are not qualified to tell somebody to take medicine. they should be put in jail. host: lisa from mena. good morning -- from maine. good morning. caller: i got vaccinated in january because i work at a hospital and i work at a covid clinic for vaccination. it is amazing how many people are so appreciative of getting the vaccine. it was scary seeing people with covid. i work in the icu at the hospital. it is scary.

i am appreciative that i was able to get the vaccine. some of the others that i have worked with that have gotten it and others who are not in the industry are appreciative. even the 16-year-olds are happy. host: you work in a hospital environment. are you seeing people in the hospital deciding to not take the vaccine or are most people working in hospitals lining up? caller: they are getting at. we have to -- getting it. we have to. host: is it a requirement? caller: they did not say it was but we were asked to sign up for it. host: people are not hesitating to get in line? caller: absolutely not. they are happy to get it.

host: the center for disease control prevention director provided a national covid case update and noted a milestone. here's what she had to say. [video clip] >> this cd reported 63,000 cases of covid-19, average seven date is going down, 62,500 per day. this is a 10% drop in average cases from the prior week and a hopeful trend. the average of admissions is a small increase of 1.6% from the prior week. the seven-day coverage of daily deaths has increased slightly to 691 per day. today i would like to take a moment to celebrate one of the tremendous milestones we as a country achieved. as of today, 66% of the u.s.

population over 65 is vaccinated fully. this is over 36 million americans who are protected from covid-19. it is so important that we protect those over 65. they have borne the brunt of the pandemic and without a vaccine are at high risk for severe disease, hospitalization and death. we are on our way to have one of our most vulnerable populations fully protected against the virus. that is a reason to celebrate. this achievement has been the result of combined efforts between cdc, fema and the health resources and services administration. state governments and private sector partnerships and you, individuals who are one at a time rolling up their sleeves to get vaccinated. host: we will see what some of

our social media followers are saying this morning about the u.s. covid-19 vaccine effort. a first -- a post from facebook said they got a favorite with no new appendages or organs on the body and better yet no covid. a tweet that says that anti-factors need to be quiet, they are not scientists, we are vulnerable, i know because i had the virus and i survived. i got the vaccine, the virus was worse. i have 50 from the virus, do not want covid again. be quiet anti-science people. a text that says i received the johnson & johnson vaccine two weeks ago, minor side effects. i was willing to be the guinea pig this time but i am concerned about a booster. which the government would encourage public health awareness. another text says that the people who refuse to get the shots are going to make it

impossible -- but are going to make it possible for more lethal viruses to develop through mutation. maybe we will not be able to develop vaccines that are effective against them. one final text that says that i received two return vaccine shots, mr. sasse will be necessary given the new variants -- booster shots will be necessary given the new variants. our national attention should be abroad where the pandemic is causing humanitarian disasters. we should bend our effort to come to the aid of those countries. what do you think about the efforts in the united states? will you get to vaccine or will you not -- the vaccine or will you not? let's start with a call from plymouth, michigan. caller: good morning. i read an article that comes that we are being lied to

regarding the vaccines themselves. i would encourage everybody to look into that. it is my understanding, that even if you get the vaccine it does not prevent you from getting covid. it does not stop you from spreading it if you do. you still have to wear a mask. you still have to social distance. nobody has any idea what the long-term effects are. the recovery rate from the virus is higher than the coverage you would get from getting the vaccine. it does not make sense to me. host: what are you doing to make sure that you do not contract covid-19? are you wearing a mask, social distancing, are you concerned about the pandemic? caller: of course i am.

yes i social distance, i wear a mask. hand sanitizer, the whole bit. as does everybody in my family. i am going to hold off on taking this experimental gene therapy and wait and see. host: what will it take for you to be assured that this is safe? more testing, more time? what will it take for you to be comfortable? caller: time. host: do you know anybody who has taken it? caller: yes i do. my mother-in-law has taken it. because she is scared to death. that if she did not she would document even though she knows that she could still get it and die from it.

she does have comorbidities. as far as side effects, she did not feel well after the first or second shot. she felt like she had the flu. she is okay now. we do not know exactly what type of affects there will be. as far as these vaccine passports and mandating people to take these, which they have not done, but there is talk of that, that is ridiculous. it is absurd to me thank you not built to travel within the country if you do not get this vaccine. host: stick around, we will talk about that at the top of the

hour. alan from asheville, north carolina. good morning. caller: good morning. i think the people should have a choice if they want the vaccine or not. i do not think corporations should mandate the vaccine. i did get the vaccine. i had pfizer, no problems. pharma, a lot of people do not like it or whatever, they think they are greedy. they had this in the pipeline and then they had to add variants to its. the lady that thanked trump for getting a star, that was a good comment. you do not hear that often. one week after the election results, pfizer came out and said they had the vaccine running. j and j took 7.5 million people

that got the shot and 15 or 16 had a clotting issue. the birth control pill, there is a lot of clotting without and people make their choices. they decide what they want to do. i want to make a point, if you go to cdc and lookup 2020 mortality, i am on that page right now. 600 90,000 people died from heart disease last year. 598,000 died from cancer. -- 690,000 people died from heart disease last year. 598,000 died from cancer. everywhere on the news has 507,000 -- 500,000 people dying from covid in the states. it has the ages that people died

, the majority of them are over 55. between one and 14, 120 people have died and they close down schools. there is a big overreach. i understand that we were not sure what was going on. but a lot of governors try to control the schools, whether you opened your business or not. some doing the something more open and other were not. there was overreach. host: as far as the schools go, even though there were few deaths -- i should not say a few, there were deaths of children, what about teachers, administrators and staff? they are in the age ranges of those dying? caller: it is always about the kids.

now all of a sudden. i understand, there is an issue. in north carolina, the governor way overreached. some teachers were comfortable going, some are not. they should have had that choice. europe versus england, europe versus england -- i am talking about the european union, they are still locked down. portugal, spain, france, italy it is a disaster. they cannot go out. england has vaccinated and if you go to youtube and do a walking tour of london you can see people out. host: kathy coming from denver, north carolina, good morning. caller: good morning. i hope everybody is doing well.

i wanted to in and tell you that i am not getting the vaccine. i have convinced most of my immediate family to not get the vaccine. i am a retired scientist. i have done a lot of research into the covid, it did come from research. the missing part to me is that cdc and nih are working on this together to give everyone an experimental injection into their bodies. we are to be considered human guinea pigs. host: where were you a scientist? before you retired. caller: i worked in agrochemicals and wastewater treatment. that i worked in rnd for the kennedy space institute.

i retired from that. i taught school for 15 years. host: when you say it is coming from fauci's research, are the coronavirus was made in the united states? caller: the adversity of northwell at capitol hill -- at chapel hill did the researcher coronavirus heard it did not come from the wet market in wuhan. the research had to be moved to offshore to wuhan. because it was not allowable to do the research in the united states. it was illegal. host: let's go to michael from maryland, he has been vaccinated. caller: good morning. how are you? host: good morning.

caller: i have a radical idea, the people who refuse to get vaccinated should voluntarily wear a t-shirt that says i do not want to get vaccinated. and let other people know that when they are around them, that they have not been vaccinated. what do you think about that? host: how would that help? caller: that would make people more aware of who is who. if you didn't want to get vaccinated, that is your choice, but other people ought to know that you have made that choice. host: let's go to frederick from los angeles, california. good morning. caller: good morning. how's it going? host: fine. go ahead. caller: i used to get the flu virus all the time. i used to get the shot all the

time, i would get sick when i got the shots. i talked to the nurse. if you're going to get sick from taking the vaccine, then do not take the vaccine. leading to the covid virus, the decision that i'm going to wait and not take it or take it later. mostly not take it because if i am going to get sick anyway -- if i'm going to get sick from the vaccine, why am i going to put myself in that place to get sick from taking the vaccine? i decided that i am going to avoid taking it. host: what do you need to hear to commence you to take this vaccine? there's nothing that they can

say that will make you decide to take this. caller: it is going to be hard for them to convince me. especially after talking to a nurse, saying that if i got sick from taking the vaccine that i should not take it. it is going to be hard for them to convince me to take a vaccine that is going to make me sick. if it is going to wear off after 3 years and i will be susceptible again, it will be hard for them to come up with some rhetoric or jargon that will commence me. -- convince me. host: it was the flu vaccine that made you sick? how do you know that this one will make you sick? caller: well it is -- in my opinion the covid is a variant of the flu. if i am not mistaken -- the flu

virus is a different virus every year. covid is going to have a different variant entry year. a lot of the same things are affected, it might be more deadly. if it is going to have a different variant every year we will have to come with a different shot every year. it will be redundant and repetitive. similar to the flu virus it will affect the same areas. it sounds like the same thing. why will i put myself in that predicament? host: earlier some callers were concerned about vaccine passports and will talk more about that at the top of the hour. earlier this week on washington journal, california representative talked about two bills he introduced called the

no vaccine passports act and keep vaccines voluntary act which explains his opposition to passports. [video clip] >> how many companies are jumping on board saying that we will give you eight doughnuts or give certificate if you show us that you get the vaccine. that is coercion, that is the freedom to do that and it is freedom to take these injections. it is the choice to do so. that is what we are about. there are some who might have an allergic reaction against i, there are some who do so. the mls and sent others are based on religious people and others do not want to do it. the problem has been so much information since the beginning and lack of information since the beginning of this pandemic

situation there is not a lot of trust coming from people from the media, dr. fauci says, what is coming out of regulatory agencies. it has caused the process of the interaction of these materials is, and that mistrust. people want to do that, that is fine. for those that do not wish to, they should not be coerced into getting it because they think they will get more access to everyday things. host: let's see what some of our social media followers are saying about the u.s. vaccine effort. a text says, when the companies that create vaccines are held liable for side effects or deaths i will consider getting the vaccine. companies should not make an experimental shot mandatory without covering liability.

the biden administration is benefiting from operation warp speed, we are talking about vaccination instead death numbers, over 100000 and first 100 days. another text that says that i got both of my by the middle of february, it should be mandated, deniers promote variants. another says that i've been vaccine for about a month, i am tired of wearing this mask. if you have not gotten thrown up by now, you will not get it. i have not been on vacation in two years. that another call asking about the deaths from the coronavirus, i am going to take you to the center for disease control which has a chart of deaths from the current device. in december of 2020 the number of total deaths was 350,000.

that was on december 1, 2020. the number today as they counted on april 20, the number of people who have died is 500 65,613 -- 565,613, more than half a million people have died right now from covid. let's go to anna from oklahoma. good morning. caller: how are you doing? host: i am fine. caller: i am 97 years old and i received both of vaccinations. i got moderna. i was pleased. it was easy to get the spot to get the vaccination. everybody was wonderful.

all of my family, which is large , have received the vaccinations and are very pleased. i had a reaction with the first in my arm. it became sore. the second one i had mild chills and aching. i took two tylenol and everything went away. i am so happy to receive it. we can get out and enjoy being with each other. that is what i need to tell you. if you have any questions. host: how long did you have to wait? were you able to get it early in the year? when you went to get it, whether

long lines? -- were there long lines? caller: at the beginning i could not find a spot, my doctor went online and ended up with a spot for me. with the oklahoma county health department. that was very simple, easy. that was done at the beginning of january. no long lines. i went in, everybody was helpful. i only had to wait about 10 minutes, sat down, got my shot. the oklahoma national guard was helping out. got the shot, waited 15 minutes for a reaction, no reaction. the second, i had the appointment set up for february. walked in, stood in line 10 minutes, sat down got my shot, everything went -- it was very

easy to get vaccination. host: is there anybody in your circle refusing to get a vaccine? caller: no. everybody is happy, my 16-year-old grandson, my son and his wife are going to get the vaccinations, which are going to be moderna. they signed their 16-year-old son, my youngest grandchild up to get the shots. they were informed when they were going in there to get the shots that kyle was too young and he would have to get pfizer. the put him down for that. he got it the other day. everybody in my family is happy to get the vaccinations and are doing well. host: there is a story in the

hill that says that almost -- more than 20% of americans are saying that they are not going to get the vaccine. i want to read a couple of paragraphs. "more than one in five say they are unlikely to take the coronavirus vaccine according to a poll. 22% of registered voters in the april 16 through 19th survey said that they are somewhat or very unlikely to take the covid vaccine. by contrast 43% said that they are either somewhat or very likely to get the vaccine and 34% said they have already been vaccinated. those who have already been vaccinated include 40% of white voters, 22 percent of black voters and 17% of hispanic voters. 64% of hispanic voters and 54% of black voters said they are

somewhat likely to take the vaccine. 37% of white voters said the same. let's go back to our phone lines and talk to ed from maryland. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i am not taking the vaccine, there are a couple of reasons. all of my family is from tuskegee, alabama. we have been through it. like another call said, i do not want to take anything with the company has no liability. back in 91 they reclassified vaccines as biological so you cannot be sued over that. which means companies cannot be sued. they have no skin in the game as far safety. they can sell it as much as they

want and if anything happens there is no responsibility to them. people say it listen to doctors, educated people. robert kennedy junior, has a series of movies explaining the vaccine issues. i advise people to check that out. our federal government never wastes a crisis. right now they are doing mandates that overstep everybody's constitutional bounds. host: what will it take for you to be convinced that this vaccine is worth taking more is there nothing that they can tell you that will make you think this is worth taking? caller: it is totally unnecessary. host: you view the vaccine is unnecessary? caller: i have had the covid, i

have the antibodies. aside from the only reason i may get it, is so i can see the baltimore ravens play it and they make me carry a card. besides that, i will not get it. host: tell me about your experience with coronavirus. did you have to be hospitalized? caller: i did not know i had it until i was on the job site. and i cannot spell something. something was wrong. i got tested and i had covid. i lost smell for three weeks. that is how it affected me. host: did you have to be hospitalized, have to go to the doctor, what happened? caller: i got the test, they said to quarantine for two weeks. i did, came back with two negative results and went back to work. host: let's go to mark from

illinois. good morning. caller: good morning, how are you? host: fine go ahead. caller: i want to let people know who are listening, i have had type two diabetes for about eight years. for the most part, i am healthy. i have been dealing with the long-hauler event, i still got my faxing. i have no problems. i truly believe that everybody's dna makeup is different. people should not be afraid. the government is not going to put something out there that will harm everybody. we went through this with chickenpox, measles, all kinds of stuff.

these things happen. this is something that we are faced with right now. if you put the vaccine in your body, it is going to tell your immune system what to be on the lookout for. this is not going to go away. host: during his speech on the state of the pandemic, president joe biden called on employers to give employees time off to get vaccinated. here is what he had to say. [video clip] pres. biden: as you moved into the campaign focused on working age adults, one concern i have heard is that they cannot afford to take time off to get vaccinated or lose a day's week because they are feeling under the weather. i am announcing a program to address that. i am coming on every employer,

large and small in every state to give employees the time of the need with pay to get vaccinated. anytime they need with pay to recover, if they are feeling under the weather. note working american should lose a single dollar from their paycheck because they chose to fulfill their patriotic duty of getting vaccinated. we are seeing employers large and small stepping up to meet this. grocery store kroger's offered to employees $100 to get vaccinated, it pushed the vaccination rates from 50% to 75% among associates. patti young bones eight hair salon in springfield, ohio, she is she is dedicated to getting her employees vaccinated. when the leave -- when they leave the salon, the

receptionist helps sign you or your family up to get a covid vaccine. and where to get it. they have scheduled more than 200 shots. businesses and employers like patty should be supported for doing the right thing. to make sure this comes at no cost to small or medium-size businesses with your than 500 employees, the irs is posting instructions for how employers can get reimbursed for providing paid leave for employees to get vaccinated or recovered from the side effects. that reimbursement which comes from a tax payment is thanks to a program i learned in the american rescue plan. -- i launched in the american rescue plan. every american should get paid leave to get a shot. businesses should know that they

can provide it without a hit to their bottom line. there is no excuse. host: even with a number of vaccines going on, the number of cases does not seem to be slowing down. axios has a story that i will read a few paragraphs from. "the u.s. is pumping out coronavirus vaccines by the millions but the coronavirus is not slowing down. this rate we have seen a surge in vaccinations and the most no spread -- and almost no change in spread. the u.s. is averaging 65,000 new cases per day. eight weeks later we are averaging 64,000 per day, yet over the same period, the u.s. has administered more than 65 million vaccine doses. roughly doubling the number of

americans who have gotten at least one shot. you think that doubling the number of vaccinated americans would produce some decline in the spread but that has not happened. more contagious. s -- more contagious variants had become the dominant strains in the u.s. over the spring. that would normally cause a big jump in cases while vaccination would cause a big drop. the two might be canceling each other out leaving the u.s. frozen at around 65,000 new cases period. that is from the axios story. cases are not budging as vaccinations increase. let's talk to ed from massachusetts. good morning. caller: good morning. they need to add the choice of the arctic proven dead fires type of vaccine which has

eradicated viruses such as polio and smallpox without experimental risk. host: what do you mean? caller: the vaccines they have now are experimental but what has been working for decades is like when you get the flu shot, for the flu virus, there is no mrna, it is just the dead virus. if they added that to the choice , i don't think anybody would have a problem. host: are you going to wait on that or are you going to take this vaccine at any point? what do they need to say to convince you?

caller: i will get a vaccine as soon as i can. i am just saying that if they added this, i am hopefully going to get johnson and johnson. the dead virus vaccine. there is no risk. just additional choices. host: let's go to melissa from kokomo, indiana. good morning. caller: good morning. host: go ahead. caller: i wanted to say the moderna vaccine -- i got the moderna vaccine. it seems to me to be the best one and the side effects were minimal. i am satisfied. host: did you get the choice between pfizer and moderna? or was that what was available? caller: we got limited

information, your state is going to get what it is going to get, hop on the bandwagon. we had moderna first anyway. when moderna opened up for my age group, my mom was comfortable to go, so we went and take care of it -- took care of it. host: how long words it -- was it to get your first shot? caller: i got three people in, i got them in within a week, then the process was fast the next time. it seems like people were not participating. host: let's go to bill from new york. good morning. caller: good morning, how are you doing? host: go ahead. caller: i want to talk about the vaccine. i want to mention something that all of your viewers should be aware of, it is a drug which has

been studied -- there is analysis, 200 peer-reviewed studies and for the life of me i cannot understand why the cdc, nih is not pushing this. it has been around 40 years. it has won a nobel prize. it is antiviral and proven to reduce viral load. you can take it as a prophylaxis. there is no need for a vaccine. as far as the boxing left. we have no 3-5 year studies. this is brand-new technology in this mrna. we have no idea how this is going to react with people confronted with variants of the virus and bacterias.

there was a drug that was professed to be safe, effective, it turned out to be devastating for pregnant women. years down the road. vioxx was professed to be an effective drug, as we now know has caused hundreds of thousands of heart attacks and strokes. now we find out there is no liability here. when things go wrong five years down the road, who will be liable? host: let's go to james from maine, good morning. caller: good money, how are you? go ahead -- good morning, how are you? host: just fine. go ahead. caller: they should give more information about the aftereffects of the shots. i got the moderna -- i am sorry,

i am i -- mi on the line? host: you are. caller: they told me it would be a mild aftereffect with the first shot put my arm hurt three days. the second shot, i headed three days a go and i still have flulike symptoms, shivering, sweating. i called the nurse and asked if it was normal. it is normal but they do not tell you it before you take the shot. host: did you have pfizer, moderna were johnson & johnson -- or johnson & johnson? caller: moderna. with four or five different vaccinations they have open, they should be able to -- i was never tested. they never tested me up here.

i think that is why our state is yellow. when you look at the testing map. nobody tested that i know, nobody has shots. -- they all have shots. but nobody was tested. i lost track of what i was going to say. host: julio from new jersey, good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. i wanted to start off i think that i've been at work since september, i work at the airport. i have been virus free until monday, when my wife and i caught it. we have been battling it well. we have been home. i had to take my wife to the er yesterday because she suffers from asthma and was given a joseph steroids. i am going to pick her up this morning and take her home.

the federal government, all of these medical professionals, why are they not talking about people eating better? all of these small businesses were closed but the large corporations were able to stay open. it shows you where the light goes. where the government allegiances like, is not with the people it is with corporations. they do not care. host: were you able to get a vaccination? do you plan to get vaccinated? did they suggest that at the hospital? caller: they did not suggest it at all. we are in the middle of it. we are in day six. after we get better we are not planning on getting this vaccine.

we doubled up on our vitamin c, zinc, although very -- elderber ry, sunlight. keeping positive. host: carol is calling from decatur, georgia. morning. sorry. caller: good morning. i talked to you two months ago because i had been in the moderna trial. two weeks ago i got the booster shot because it looks like we might have that need for boosters. this one has the south african variant. for the people who say that there is not a big deal with getting the virus, they need to look at that gentleman with the comments about long-haulers. it is not a respiratory virus

but it can affect people neurologically as part of people losing their sense of smell and affect other organs. i am a big believer in getting protection. the vaccine is not something that came around, it has been 20 years in the making. this has been tried and tested, it is a proven efficacy. host: judy from minnesota, good morning. caller: mule, minnesota. i am 70 years old and my body overreacts to a lots of things. i have not been able to take flu or pneumonia shots because of reactions. i will not be taking covid

either. i have issues that give me a comorbidity. i will statemany of my circle bt we had covid of february and 2020. we were very sick with pneumonia like symptoms for about a week but we survived it. so, there are some in my group that have taking it, -- that have taken it but many are not either. host: coming up next we will look at the debate over covid-19 vaccine passports and the role that the government and private sector play in that. joel zinberg, a medical doctor and senior fellow at the competitive enterprise institute will join us for that discussion. and later, charles wilson will be here to discuss the debate

over police reform in the wake of the chauvin verdict. stick with us, we will be right back. ♪ >> today on "the communicators," a look at social media and content moderation, with the director for the center of technology and invasion. >> republicans tend to be upset about the content moderation being too much and that it seems to be politically motivated, and it is putting conservative verse -- voices at a disadvantage where a lot of the democrats members of congress seem upset that more content is not being taken down. they feel that dangerous or untrue things are being left up and that is creating all sorts of other problems that spill over into the off-line world. while i think that a lot of

washington can agree that content moderation is something that everyone is upset about, they come at two separate ways. >> today at 6:30 p.m. eastern on c-span. ♪ >> sunday, may second, a live conversation with an author who writes about moral values and education. >> progress has not ceased, but it is progress around a dimension that needs back into the larger pattern of decadence, because it leads people to spend more time in virtual realities and simulations of reality, and to retreat from both surkin kinds of economic activity, but also to bring us to another force, retreat from family formation, romance, and childbearing, which is the aspect of decadence that i call sterility. >>'s latest book is "the

decadent society," and other titles include "privilege," and "bad religion." sunday, may 2 on news eat -- at noon eastern. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we are back with dr. joel zinberg who is a senior fellow at the competitive enterprise institute who is here to talk to us about what he sees as a need for covid-19 vaccine task force and the role that the government and the private sector should play in this. good morning. guest: good morning. host: tell us about your medical background and your role at cei. guest: i am a physician in new york city and i have been practicing surgically -- surgery

and surgical oncology for 30 years. i have been involved in public policy discussions as they -- as a professor at columbia law school several years ago, and i was a senior economist and general counsel at the white house council of economic advisers from 2017 to 2019. and, we have studied the role of vaccination and innovative technologies in trying to allay any pandemic, and we are particularly influent -- interested in influenza, which became the basis of the partnerships that formed operation warp speed and the unprecedented development of vaccines within less than a year after a new disease comes forward. host: you have recently released a report called a way forward for vaccination passports. you conclude in this report that the private sector should take the lead in vaccination

passports with a limited government role. elaborate about what you are talking about. guest: you have to understand what is the purpose of a vaccine passport. it is a way to distinguish between people who are at risk for being infected with a virus that causes covid, and people who are not at risk, people who are immune. the point is that you can become immune in two ways, via vaccination, or because you have been infected and recovered and you have natural immunity. once you have enough people who are immune, you get to the point where you reach herd immunity, where there are enough people who are protected against infection that there is no longer a risk of transmitting the virus from one person to another. when you approach that point, then the reason for vaccine passports largely goes away.

and my argument in that article was that we are close to reaching that herd immunity because we have large numbers of people who are vaccinated. we are now over 40% of the population has received one dose, which is 80% effective in dealing with virus transmission and one third of the population has been fully vaccinated. importantly, the most vulnerable people in our country, people over 65 who form 81% of the deaths, you have 80 percent of those folks with one dose and more than two thirds have been fully vaccinated. we have done very well on the vaccine front, and we have had over 32 million people that we know of get infected with confirmed cases and recoveries, and it is probably many more times that number, so close to about 200 million people who have recovered from covid and

have natural immunity. when you put those two together, we are at a point where we are close to herd immunity and the vaccine passport need goes down. having said that, there might be circumspect as when it is important for their to be a way to distinguish between those who are susceptible to infection and those who are not, and i am talking about things like international travel where many countries have made it clear that they are not going to allow people to come in unless they have been proven to be vaccinated, and there might be starting settings, things like medical facilities or we are anxious to protect patients and staff from exposure and infection with covid. host: you did say in the report that the most obvious role for a vaccine passport would be international travel. and, in the report you point out that the european union, japan,

china, great britain, they are all considering some form of vaccination passports. how likely do you think is it that the united states will do the same thing for international travelers coming to the u.s. sometime in the future? guest: i think it is pretty clear if you have travelers trying to come in from hotspots overseas, the government either has two options. it can prohibit travel from those places, or it can allow travel only for people who have proof of vaccination. and, or a negative test, that is another option. that proof of a negative test within a few days can be rolled into a vaccine passport, so depending on what happens overseas, it is quite likely that our country will impose some sort of password requirement for foreign travelers. host: let us talk specifically about the united states.

do you think it is a good idea for private businesses to require some type of vaccine passport for their customers and their employees and staff. do you think that that is something that will happen and do you think it is a good idea? guest: i do not think it is a good or bad idea. i think the private entities are in the best decision -- position to determine if it makes sense. as i mentioned, health care facilities. they have to be very carefuls to make sure that their staff does not expose the vulnerable patients and vice versa because of their staff is in contact with people who are sick and can transmit the disease. they have to be careful to protect their staff. that is a setting where they may determine that other mitigation managers are inadequate and they want to impose it. a business with a meat -- like a

meat packing plant, and there are multiple early outbreaks in them, and a cruise ship, where you have a few thousand people locked in a ship for a week or two and where there were multiple early outbreaks. they may determine it makes sense and they may also determine it does not make sense. the point is i do not think there is a room for a government mandate because not one-size-fits-all. at the end of the day, if it is in is finds that its customers are unhappy with the requirement that they be vaccinated and prove it, they will stop using it, but on the other hand we will have customers that will not shop unless they have a severances -- assurances that it is safe. it is not a one-size-fits-all, but the private entities are in the best position to make that decision. host: if a private entity require some type of proof that someone has been vaccinated, or

-- can they share that information with other organizations? or is that considered private, so for example if walmart requires you to show your vaccine passport to get in, can they share it with the store down the street that is not walmart? guest: this is private health information, and particularly if it will be transmitted electronically is covered under federal statutes. that is the major concern people have is privacy. nobody -- it is nobody's business to know your private health information. but for this one piece of information and limited purpose, it would be allowed, they are not supposed to share that or any other health information with anybody else. host: let us let some of our viewers take part in this conversation. we will open up the same lines that we used in the first hour. that means if you have been

vaccinated against the coronavirus pandemic, your number will be 202-748-8000. if you have not been vaccinated yet, your line will be 202-748-8001. if you plan to not get vaccinated, your number will be 202-748-8002. keep in mind that you can always text us at 202-748-8003. and, we are always reading on social media, on twitter and on facebook. now, i am going to read to you a follow-up on what you said, i will read the privacy rule that they have already said that covers part of something you are talking about, so i want to show it to people so they know what it is. the privacy rule "establishes national standards to protect individual medical records and

other personal health information and applies to health plans, health care cleaning houses and those health care providers that conduct certain health care transactions electronically." would any vaccine passport fall under that rule? guest: yes. it would fall under the privacy rule since most of the prototypes that are being advanced are electronic. there are about 17 different consortium and companies that thus far have advanced possible things including ibm, a vaccine cooperative that includes microsoft, oracle, mayo clinic, i and i am talking -- and i am talking about electronic things. it could be a simple piece of paper, but there are some counterfeiting possibilities with that. most of these people like ibm solutions, it is utilizing

octane technology in an -- block chain technology in an attempt to keep the information private from ibm and other companies. host: earlier this week, california republican representative doug lamalfa came on and explains two bills he is introducing called the no vaccines passport act and the keep vaccines voluntary act which he says that both will explain his opposition to vaccine passports and i want you to listen to what he said. [video clip] >> how may companies are jumping on board and saying they will give you a doughnut or $25 gift certificate if you show us that you got vaccines. and that is coercion. they are free to do that. and it is people's freedom to take one of these injections, but the key choice is to choose to do so, and that is what we are about as a country.

because, who wants to discriminate against those who have an allergic reaction. i know people, they call us and email saying we cannot all do this. others based on a religious view. and others that do not want to do it and they are not comfortable with it. the problem has been that there is so much information since the beginning or lack of information since the beginning of this pandemic situation that there is not a lot of trust coming by people for their media, for what dr. fauci is saying, for what was coming out of various regulatory agencies, and so with that, it has kind of caught the process of getting in the -- getting the injections in different materials got caught up in that mistrust. now people want to do it, and that is fine and your choice. for those who do not wish to you should not be coheirs into getting it -- coericed into

getting it. [end video clip] host: now, people like the representative saying that it could be discriminatory against some people, and you have said that there is no federal statutory regulatory or constitutional barrier for private industry to require these type of passports. explain what you mean, and talk a little bit about what the representative says they are. -- there. guest: let me reiterate what i started with, we are approaching herd immunity so that it will no longer be important to show that you have immunity via one of the vaccine passports. so, this may be a debate that we are having that is unimportant. i am sympathetic because we have the caller who gets allergic

reactions to vaccines and is unable to take vaccines, but you have to understand, the alternative in many situations is that you have restrictions imposed on everyone regardless of whether they are vaccinated or not if you do not make this distinction between people who are susceptible to infection and people who are not. it is important in the setting where it is important to distinguish between those people, that is a setting where you might need vaccines. i am not proposing that we have vaccine passports for everybody or they be imposed nationwide, i think the biden administration has taken a good approach and they have said that they will not impose a mandate, and they wants the private sector to take the lead, both in terms of distinguishing what situations might be appropriate, and in terms of developing the software

standards and solutions that could be utilized because there is no question. there are 17 groups that are proceeding way ahead of the federal government in terms of developing these things. so, i am not sure that we are really at odds. i do not know of anyone who is pushing for vaccine passports to be imposed nationwide or uniformly. host: let us let some of our callers take part. we will start with carol from clarksville, tennessee. good morning. caller: good morning. i was calling to say that we already have a passport, our shot record. host: like carol said, there are places that already require some proof of vaccination, as a parent i know that schools, public schools require you to show some type of shot record for your children before you allow them to go to school.

what is the difference between what schools and universities are doing and what this vaccine passport would be? guest: you read the line from my report earlier talking about they are not being any constitutional or statutory or regulatory barriers to imposing this, and that is precisely what i am talking about. all 50 states have a requirement for childhood vaccination, and there has been a lot of law dating back to a case in 1905 which allows mandated vaccination in certain circumstances. so, if you can mandate vaccination you cannot -- you can mandate that you have proof of the vaccination. that does not mean you should do that, but it does mean that there is no legal barrier to doing it. and, there is no legal barrier for the private industries as long as they do not impose the

mandate or requirement in a discriminatory way and as long as they allow people with genuine health problems to opt out and genuine religious concerns to opt out. there is no legal there barrier for them either. your caller is spot on. we already have this and we have requirements on international travel, they want yellow fever sick -- certificates and people travel to certain parts of the world to show that they have been vaccinated. we are not breaking any new legal ground. host: let us talk to ryan from crystal river, florida. good morning. host: i want to say thank you for taking my call. one, the doctor seems knowledgeable and i like his free-market approach to his vaccines. my son was a victim of an

adverse reaction and we have been in the department special counsel court for adverse reactions to vaccines for three years over it. and the only other thing i want to say is the mandate forgetting them in schools and stuff, when you said genuine religious concerns, if he really defines what a genuine religious concern is, and the only other thing i would like to bring up is like the tuskegee experiments where they gave poor black vaccination shots with syphilis in it to do studies. i would also like to bring up the nuremberg trials where it was said that mandatory vaccinations was an atrocity to her manatee and that was one of the touch humanity and that was one of the things that convicted the nazi party. went someone has so much money -- when someone has so much money that they can lobby and make legislation you will constantly need another upgrade

like it was with computers you got microsoft, you had to get the antivirus. microsoft was printing out the virus and you would have to get the antivirus for the stuff that they created. when you see a guy like dr. fauci who is involved with so many independent and private corporations like the bill and melinda gates foundation. they have taken pictures over there in china -- host: go ahead and respond. guest: the nuremberg trials had nothing to do with vaccinations, they had to do with murder, they had to do with forced scientific experiments, horrific experiments on people who were in no position to consent and were first to do it, also -- forced to do it in their death -- often ending in their death. the tuskegee experiments was the withholding of known treatment,

penicillin from those poor men for years, just so they could study how syphilis would progress. i do not think any of the examples that the caller gave are particularly relevant here. host: we have a social media follower who wants to know how should you prove that you have been vaccinated. this person texted "why is a vaccine passport necessary? isn't the vaccination card enough to prove protection? what do we need to prove that we have been vaccinated? guest: i think the fear is that the vaccine card, which you received and is put out by the cdc, and it describes which vaccine you receive and the dates as well as having your name on it. i think the fear is that that might be falsified. the real concern, and this is

where i said in my article that i wrote for the competitive enterprise, i felt the real role for the federal government would be to set standards so that in those instances where a vaccine is needed like international travel, we have wide standards so that they can select from these private developers, see which one has the best standard and the one that is the most flexible and accommodates the most different solutions and it is compatible with them, and select that, and then we will know that this is a standard accepted worldwide. we already know that france is going to be requiring proof of immune eyes asian. you do not want to step out of the plane and find out the card that you have or the type of vaccine passport on your phone is not recognized by the french authorities. you want to make sure that there is compatibility around the world, so that is the role of the federal government where

they can be quite helpful, and i am hopeful that they will select a common standard that software developers can rely on. host: we talked a little bit earlier about some businesses that have already said they will require some type of proof of vaccination for entry, airlines, cruise ships, and we are seeing places where americans publicly gather like sports arenas saying that they may require some type of proof of that -- proof of vaccination. we talked earlier about litigation over vaccination for schools, do we expect litigation over vaccination for arenas where the public gathers or for cruise ships, or airlines? guest: this is america, i am sure there will be litigation. you can bet on that. i think most instances, you will not see it most -- not successful, but there will be litigation. host: daniel from elizabeth

bill, -- elizabethville, pennsylvania. good morning. caller: i have been vaccinated with moderna twice. and, the only side effects that i had was my arm, and a reoccurring lymphoma treatment. and, the lymph nodes got slightly larger after the vaccination. and my oncologist said that that was good because that means it is working. and, if i may say, i often hear lots of politicians and medical professionals claiming that we are actually at war. if people are not taking precautions in a war, wouldn't

they be aiding and abetting the enemy? and shouldn't they be treated as such, like in the people's republic of cambridge massachusetts, the first offense of not taking precautions is $500. the second offense is $1200. and there seems to be a lot of compliance. if i may say one other thing, african-americans were not the only people that were used in experimentation. it happened to me -- you have heard of repressed memories, it happened to me when i was like six and it popped up into my head when i was in my 60's. host: go ahead and respond. guest: ideally, we do not want to utilize coheirs and -- coercion if it is not necessary. people can by in large, and have

been willing to comply with various mitigation measures. what i think most people do not realize is that people are not stupid. people are pretty rational in most situations. when they hear that there is a deadly disease out there and it is communicable and can be passed through respiratory secretions they take action on their own without the government imposing anything. so there is a lot of data to show that people were not going to restaurants, they were avoiding big public gatherings, they were trying to stay out of work situations before the government imposed lockdown measures. so, in most situations you do not need the government, and it is very difficult to distinguish what the impact is when it was people's voluntary actions or

the lockdown? and most studies think that the effect related to the lockdowns are voluntary actions. you really want to try and avoid any kind of government restrictions or a government force in this area if possible. and, as i mentioned at the outset, thankfully, we might be approaching a point where we can avoid that restriction, the passport requirement for the vast majority of the population. host: we would like to thank dr. joel zinberg, senior fellow at the competitive enterprise institute for being with us this morning and talking to us about his new report, "a way forward for vaccination passports." thank you for spending time with us this morning. guest: my pleasure. host: coming, charles wilson, chair of the national association of black law

enforcement officers will discuss the debate over police reform in the rake -- wake of the chauvin where -- verdict. later on, phillip morris will discuss his recent article about death row sentencing, "sentenced to death, but innocent." we will be right back. ♪ >> american history tv on c-span3, exploring the people and events that tell the american story every weekend. thousands of people visit washington for the blooming of the cherry blossoms. sunday at 6:00 p.m. eastern we will look at the history of the cherry tree and the washington, d.c. title basin which once served as a swimming hole, and the scene of a political scandal. at 8:00 p.m. eastern, a behind-the-scenes tour of the harry s truman library and museum in missouri and here about stories exploring the life

of the president. >> sunday night on q&a, a conversation with susan page about her biography, "madam speaker: on the political career of nancy pelosi." >> once hillary clinton was elected as so many people and i could put myself in that camp thought she was being elected. nancy pelosi was making plans to step down. she was 76 and had nine grandchildren. she had other things she wanted to do. at that election night was a shock for her and so many others. she said that once she realized that donald trump was going to win the election, it was like a mule was kicking her physically. she did not say this metaphorically. she said she felt like a mule

was kicking her. by the end of that night she decided that she was going to stay and try to stand up to donald trump and to protect democratic priorities including the affordable care act. >> susan page on her biography " mattern's -- madam speaker" on c-span's q&a. you can also listen to it as a podcast where you get your podcasts. >> as he approaches his 100th day in office, president biden will give his first address to a joint session of congress wednesday night. our coverage begins with the address at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. online at c-span.org, or listen on the radio app. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we are back with charles wilson, the national chair of

the national association of black law enforcement officers to discuss his organization and the current state of policing in the united states. good morning. guest: good morning. host: first of all, tell us about your organization. what is its mission and how many members do you have? guest: it is an organization of men and women of color throughout the country. they are working in law enforcement, corrections, and investigative agencies. we very strongly advocate for their concerns and interests. as well as the related concerns and interests of the communities that we hail from. i would venture to tell you that 95 to 98% of our members, and

there are approximately 10 to 15,000 members collectively throughout the country. they all seem to be working in those areas where have grown up, where they live, where they have gone to school. so, we have very intricate -- we are very intricately tied to the concerns and needs of our communities. host: now, you have been a police officer for years, you are the first black police chief in ohio -- in a suburb of cleveland, ohio. talk to me about your experience and your experience being the first lack chief. -- black chief. guest: careerwise there is not a whole lot i have not done over the 45 years i was on the job. i have done patrol, traffic,

undercover narcotics, i have worked in internal affairs. as the first black chief, i tried to focus on those community issues which had a specific and strong impact on interactions with youth in the community, interactions with the business environment in the community. and, trying to ensure that the officers under my command treated people the same way i did, with respect and dignity, understanding that everybody is

deserving of that kind of treatment. unfortunately, i personally was not as astute politically as i currently am. so, we had differences. and i ultimately left. host: now, in your years as a police officer, and as a police chief, how have you seen policing change? or has it changed from what it was in the past? guest: i would have to say to you that it really has not systemically changed. what people have to recognize and bear in mind is that the institution of policing as it is currently practiced has been inherently biased against people of color and low income and

designed to be that way. the system of policing that we have today and has been in existence for over 400 years. having said that, there have been some rather interesting and dynamic changes over the years since i first got involved in law enforcement. training has significantly improved. the various issues coming out of the courts that have sought to hold law enforcement accountable have changed to a certain extent. it still is required that there be more transparency within the

profession. there are still significant changes that need to be made in order for people to regain and be instilled with the degrees of trust and reliability that we as a profession have to have in order to do our jobs. host: specifically what changes need to be made, especially with the derek chauvin trial behind us, what changes need to be made in policing that could be applied all around the country. guest: the derek chauvin trial is nothing more than a small footprint towards the concepts of full justice in the community, and i am specifically talking about communities of color. where the profession in needs to

change, we need to remodel the who and how we hire. we cannot afford any longer to not properly and fully vet those people coming into the profession. we need to make sure that anybody and everybody that we hire has a stronger sense of empathy. a better concept of cultural awareness and diversity, a better concept of conflict management, because that is what we do. we manage conflicts. if you are going to talk to the issues of diversifying your agencies, then you have to ensure that you are actually recruiting where the people are

that you say you want to bring in. if you tell me that one of your primary candidates is supposed to be a black female but you do not tell me that you are putting your recruiting information in the hair salons and shopping centers where every single black woman i know goes once a week you are not hiring for black females. we must then also look at the what and how we train. we have traditionally trained police officers to be warriors, and that is what people look at us as. we have to make sure that we now train officers to be guardians of those communities, because that is what those communities deserve. host: explain the difference. what is the difference between training someone to be a warrior and a guardian? how would that affect policing? guest: the training we have

typically given places officers in a situation of us versus them. ok. we have traditionally taught officers that they have to be extremely wary and cautious of everybody they come in contact with. that does not lend itself well to the ideas of working productively with people in the community. and, especially in communities of color. host: let me remind our viewers that i want you to take part in us -- in this conversation as well. we will open up regional lines. meaning that if you are in the eastern or central time zones, your number will be 202-748-8000 . if you are in the mountain and

pacific time zones, your phone number will be 202-748-8001. we are opening up a special line for members of law enforcement. members of law enforcement we want to hear from you. your line will be 202-748-8002. keep in mind that you can always text us at 202-748-8003. and, we are always reading on social media on tweeter -- twitter and on facebook. now, there is a bill going through the house of representatives called the george floyd justice in policing act, and in this bill it aims to end certain police techniques including chokeholds and cardio holds, two forms of deadly police force that would be banned at the federal level and federal funding at local and

state agencies would be conditioned on those agencies outlawing them. it will also add in training and investment for community programs. do you think this bill will help anything if it passes and is signed into law? it is a good start. what i would have to say to you is that recognizing how the system has evolved over the years. we are never going to fully rid ourselves of situations involving racial profiling, police abuse and misconduct, excessive use of force. ok? i think that while that is the ultimate goal of the george

floyd act, it may fall short of that. but, the bill itself is a strong and very good start on bringing about accountability, and more transparency in the way that policing is conducted. host: another part of the bill would limit qualified immunity for police officers meaning that they could end up being sued for some of their actions on the job. are you for or against that part of it? guest: i am for it. i believe that we needt o -- to, at the very least, modify how qualified immunity is implemented. whether we are able to get rid of it completely or not, toss a

quarter up in the air and see where it lands. police officers as well as other public servants need to understand that when they conduct business, if they do not do it properly, fairly, and legally, there is a consequence. whether that be losing your job, whether that be losing your house, because you did not pay attention. whether that be being prosecuted criminally. there are always consequences. host: one of our social media followers has a question for you and i assume this comes up

because of the conversation around what happened with derek chauvin and george floyd. they want to know "how much force have you had to use to control an unruly suspect?" guest: only the amount of force that is necessary to control. what happened to george floyd should never have happened to anybody, lack, white, -- black, white, or indifferent. we have always been taught that once you have the suspect under control, there is no further need for any additional force. so, they had him handcuffed. they take him out of the car after they get him handcuffed, drop him down on the ground and now they have a knee on his neck

for nine some odd minutes. any fool who is being told by the suspect i cannot breathe 27 times should have known that there was a problem. host: let us let some of our viewers take part in the conversation. we will start with andrew from houston, texas. good morning. caller: good morning, gentlemen. chief wilson, thank you for being on the program. i want to touch on two things you said. one, the transformation of training from warriors to guardians, i think that is spot on and fantastic. the second thing i want to say is with regards to the constitution and the bill of rights, and citizens' rights. i often watch videos of first

amendment auditors who go into areas and sort of test the police and see how they do with regards to upholding people's rights. do you feel like there is a need for reform so that police will always keep the rights of the citizen in their mind and, keep that at the forefront instead of trying to bust criminals? thank you very much. guest: i would have to tell you, yes. we have to ensure -- if you look on the side of almost every police cruiser in the country what it says is to protect and serve. and, the key part of that is not just protect, but to serve.

we serve the communities that we work for, not the agency. we serve the community. so, consequently, we have to ensure that people's rights are being properly observed, people are being properly treated fairly, people are being treated justly. that is the only way that we can properly police the community. we are supposed to be there to ensure their safety. ok? if they do not trust us, we cannot properly and effectively ensure their safety. host: let us talk to ralph from

augusta, georgia. good morning. caller: good morning, sir. the things that are being proposed are spot on as the caller before said. but, i worked in law enforcement in the military, i worked at april -- equal opportunities. my concern is that what are we going to get an actual committee to come about with reform? i would be leery of working in my community as a black man because once i go in and try to help a situation, and i do not handle it the way that the powers to be want, then i am on the line and i am being watched.

they wanted to say that they were not racist, so they put me to see how i would handle him. the other thing is that i will not talk too long, but until the president, and until congress, we can talk all we want to, but until they decide to take action, nothing is going to be done because people will continue doing this stuff. there is a thing called just because where you can be fired for just cause. when you are in a police union, so these people, just cause. he had 19 allegations against him prior to this last. we let the power -- the powers to be let them get away with it,

and look what finally happened. now we have riots. we should not have to march anymore for our equal rights. host: go ahead and respond. guest: i'm going to tell you that you are spot on. you know, we have to have -- everybody knows who the idiots are in their department and i will tell you that every single one of the over 18,000 police departments throughout the country has at least one serving actively on their department, and everybody on the agency knows who it is. the problem is that nobody is speaking up and calling these people out. and, so we end up with situations like the one out of

buffalo back in 2008 or 2010. cario horn -- carrie o'horn decided to intervene when one of her white counterparts was trying to beat up a black suspect for no reason. she ended up being fired, and had to fight until three weeks ago to get justice on her side. the court has now said that they will reinstate her. period. now, the officer that she intervened with, the union supported him and he got promoted to lieutenant. he did ultimately get put in jail for doing the same thing all over again.

but, these are the things that we need to ensure across-the-board. people have to talk up. people have to -- the system will not hold us accountable unless we hold ourselves accountable. host: so, how do you get around what has been called the blue wall of silence where even if a police officer does something wrong, other police officers will not say anything? or should you get around that? guest: we have to get around it. we can no longer allow the idiots to remain in place because they are just as much a danger to us as they are to everyone in the union. i could tell you a couple of horror stories about going on a

call after one of the idiots has been there and riled people up. so now i go on the call and i have to argue with everybody. i have to take the risk of people wanting to be mad at me because i am there representing the institution that has just cause them harm. host: let us talk to dan from bridgewater, new jersey. good morning. caller: yes, sir. i am exasperated with police training, and i have to say that the unindicted co-conspirators are the city fathers because they do not give adequate training. this guy, chauvin, i am sure he was not trying to kill mr. floyd, but he did not know what he was actually doing.

and there is the saying amongst the police, they said that if you can talk, you can breathe. that is such an idiotic comment that only depicts how little they know. mr. chauvin is a victim of poor training and he was no better than when you are pressing on somebody's back when his chest is crushed on the ground, there is no way to inhale. if he speaks, he is using the residual air that would have saved his life. so, if chauvin had been better trained, if the chiefs and the city fathers will allow us to better train them, even as volunteer physicians, a lot of this would not happen. a little cpr and understanding of physiology for the officers would go a long way. host: do you agree that the

death of george floyd comes from poor training? guest: i would say that it comes from -- george floyd's death came from a lack of compassion, a lack of adherence to human decency. there is no question whatsoever in my mind that their children did not know -- derek chauvin did not know what he was doing. he knew exactly what he was doing. anytime somebody tells you 20 time 27 separate times i cannot breathe, you as a law enforcement officer are obligated to provide some level of emergency medical care. that was not done.

you had three other officers standing there, watching this take place. they as well have to share that blame, because any one of them could have reached over, grab chauvin either shoulders and told him, hey, get up. host: let us go to david from yuri, pennsylvania -- erie, pennsylvania. caller: one thing i would like to say, it is amazing how we group everyone together in one group. the police officer in minnesota was guilty, fine. he does not represent 90% of all

of the other police officers that do their job every day, day in and out the right way. but everyone wants to lump everyone together. it is frustrating as a basic white guy at 50 some years old. i cannot believe they want to lump everyone together, the same people that are complaining about their lot in life are doing the same thing. it does not make any sense to me. host: go ahead and respond. guest: and i have to agree with you on that. one of the principal programs that we do in the community is entitled what to do when stopped by the police. it is principally an educational program that we use to advise people both law enforcement and

community of the best ways to interact with law enforcement. one of the specific things that i tell people no matter where i go is yes, we have a large number of idiots on the job. but, the vast officers but the vast majority of the officers across this country, all we want to do his work, do our job, and up helping somebody -- end up helping somebody, go home with no injuries, complaints that come to see mama and the dog. host: a social media follower has a question about the number of firearms in the united states. they want to know whether the number of firearms has complicated law enforcement. i was felt that cops bore the

brunt of this. the number of guns in the country does that make law enforcement harder? guest: i am going to tell you yes, particularly where it concerns the assault weapons. in my experienced consideration there is no need for an ordinary citizen to have an ak-47 or m 15. even the designer of those guns did not intend that they be used by the general public. cops ended up back in the mid-to

late 70's going from revolvers to semi automatics because of the proliferation of high caliber handguns in the community. i have to go along with that idea. the overwhelming number of weapons in the community has made our jobs harder. host: let's talk to rob from missouri, good morning. caller: good morning. how are you? i am upset about a lot of things considering george floyd, breonna taylor and others, we should direct our attention into solutions. police officers should be

trained for two years and a lot of emphasis should be on community policing so they can become more sensitive two what goes on there so they are not so jumpy. i think white police officers and some black police officers view the black community as a threat to them and their well-being. the with direct needs to be weeded out -- the way they act needs to be weeded out. when a doctor makes a mistake and the patient dies, he is covered by liability insurance but when a doctor commits homicide, it is homicide. you do not say that he made a mistake. we need to distinguish between those when we look at police officers and look at them when they are committing homicide and when it is a mistake.

guest: i have to in certain ways agree. let's talk the -- let's take as an example the shooting in ohio. based on everything i have seen, even taking into consideration the community up roar, it is likely that is going to be called a good shooting. as opposed to let's go back a few years, the shooting in south carolina of walter scott. no way could not be considered good. the problem we have is the actions of the person and the law enforcement officer involved.

if they are moving away from you -- the standard is, tennessee versus garner, that you must be in fear of your life or threat to someone else. if they are moving away from you , they are not threatening you. the situation in virginia, he was in the cart with his hands out the window, you can see that he is not armed, there is no need for additional force. this is what riled people up. this is what we need to seek legislation and policy change

and enhanced and increased training to get rid of -- until it happens we will continue having this discussion. host: a study you worked on in 2015 for the national association of black law enforcement officers shows a high number of responders felt that racial profiling happened and was condoned by their agency. do you think that is better or worse? guest: has not changed. weeded did two of those studies, both were public -- we did two of those studies, both were published. we got the same results. at least amongst african-american and latino officers. we know that racial profiling exists. we know that in some cases it is

condoned by supervisors. and administrators, we police differently than our counterparts. we seem to be more accepted in the community than our counterparts. that is because those are communities that we come from, we grew up in those communities, we live in those communities, we got married there. we sent our kids to school in those communities. we go to church in those communities. we are a better known entity. when we go on the job, we go back and live in those communities. host: what do you see as the

biggest challenge for black law enforcement officers? guest: learning that we have to talk up more, we have to be more focal about -- vocal about the issues in policing. being in those agencies, what you have to recognize is that out of the 18,000 police department's across the country, 800,000 law enforcement officers, we only make up 12% of the community. research that we have conducted has indicated, where ranking officers are concerned, we make up less than 4%.

i served as a senior patrol lieutenant for the state campus police department in rhode island for 20 years. as a lieutenant, i was one of the 10 highest ranking black police officers in the state. coming from cleveland, ohio where out of 8 agencies, at least 25% of those agencies had a black chief ford deputy chief -- or black deputy chief. a few lieutenants, a bunch of sergeants. host: lambert is coming from

brooklyn, new york, good morning -- coley from-- calling from brooklyn, new york, good morning. caller: i am concerned, i have heard many times that the union, not the police, the union fighting for the police, the police operate under laws that they execute their duty by. they are dictated by the court, made by the state and the court determines how they interpret. how does the union come into the picture in terms of the law? in the union normally deals with pay, benefits.

how do they defend the police on violation of the law? guest: what i would have to say is the issues with the unions, they are supposed to represent paying members. in a lot of instances, they do not adequately represent the interest and concerns of officers of color who are also paying members. they have gotten political

strength, should they be curtailed? probably. host: kathleen from new york, morning. caller: good morning. mr. wilson, i would like to say a few things and ask some. when i was a little girl, i used to see kkk on the news a lot. when the years went by, it is like what happened to them? one day, anywhere they could take a life, law enforcement, the medical field, so on. that is what i believe, as far as the young man, aubrey, the man who killed him was a retired

police officer. if they went into his history on law enforcement, more than likely he has killed a lot of black people. as far as derek chauvin, he knew he was killing him. come on. my question is reform, when somebody wants to go into law enforcement does this make sense to you? put them on a lie detector, asked them if they are racist, any questions or do with being racist. also check their social media, instagram, facebook to see if they are spewing racist hate could you comment on that? guest: one they are conducting hiring processes -- when they

are conducting hiring processes they need to look at social media. the fbi put out a study that indicated a prevalence of white supremacy and other adverse entities joining into the military and law enforcement. the only way to curtail that is to look at issues across the board. you have to look at social media. you have to screen them for their attitudes and opinions on social interaction, cultural diversity, you need to talk to

the people they deal with to find out what their thought patterns are. we have to be more strict in the who and how of hiring. those only relate you get rid of that -- that is the only way you can get rid of that. guest: we want to thank charles wilson, the national chair of the national association of black law enforcement officers, for talking us to this -- for talking to us this morning about the state of policing. coming up next phillip morris, national geographic contributing author to talk about his article on death row sentencing. stick with us. ♪

>> book tv on c-span two has top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. sunday at 9:00 eastern on afterwards, in his book children under fire, a washington post staff writer looks at the effects of gun violence on children in america. is interviewed by a columbia university health education and epidemiology professor. former speaker of the house, john boehner, talks about his book, "on the house: a washington memoir," which recounts his career in the house of representatives and the future of the republican party. tuesday, investigative journalist on her book, which looks at how people can engage in healthy conflict resolution. watch book tv sunday on c-span2. >> monday at 10:00 is for,

listen to live coverage of the supreme court oral arguments, americans for prosperity versus rodriguez, a consulting case concerning the donor disclosure requirements. listen live monday at 10:00 eastern on c-span, at c-span.org/supremecourt or the c-span radio app. listen to the weekly, this week a conversation with a psychology professor, whose research ties the converse death toll and the death of george floyd to social inequity. >> women look at leadership positions, at academic institutions or large companies, how many of those are individuals of color? not very many. it is a pipeline issue. that we need to look at and fix. and not think of the proms

because we have a black vice president. >> find the weekly where you get podcasts. >> washington journal continues. host: we are back with national geographic contributing writer, phillip morris to talk about our spotlight on magazine segment on his recent article in national geographic. "sentenced to death, but innocent.". guest: good morning. telus -- host: tell us what the stories about what made you decide to write this story. guest: this story is about people who had been sentenced to die, who in many cases had spent years if not decades incarcerated, many of those years on death row before

evidence would support after the original case that they work innocent. a lot of people have been fascinated and moved by the fact that national geographic used its platform to highlight capital punishment. in some ways, a lot people suggested that it seemed to be at odds with the traditional fare that national geographic offers. it is consistent with the mesh -- with the mission of the magazine over its 130 years of existence. it has tried to elevate marginalized voices or voices that were not heard. or deeply misunderstood. this hard look at capital punishment, especially coming in the year 2020 or you -- for 2021

when it was published was consistent with the reckoning and the look that people were giving god -- and the look that people were giving at the way governor justice is meted out -- justice is meted out. host: how big of a problem is it that people have been falsely accused and put on death row? guest: it is an extraordinary problem. we are just starting to understand the magnitude. this nation has been executing people before it was a nation. people in the pre-colony era were being executed.

when we look at the fact that in recent years we are seeing increasing numbers of people exonerated, not only for capital sentences but other sentences for which untold numbers of people have lost years and years of their life due to a false conviction. whether or not it was due to police or prosecutorial misconduct, false eyewitnesses false connections. america in particular is taking a hard look at this practice of capital punishment. host: i want to read a few statistics in your story. "during the last three decades, the innocence project has shed light on how dangerously

fallible the u.s. justice system can be in capital cases. dna testing, scrutiny of action by police, prosecutors and public defenders has exonerated 180 two people since 1972. as of december 20 20 led to more than 2700 exonerations overall since 1989." those numbers are incredible. guest: they are extraordinary. during the course of reporting the story, i was fortunate enough to meet a number of people affiliated with the group witnessed the innocence, a group located in philadelphia. i believe it was formed in 2003, by the 100th person exonerated from death row just to hear the

story of these people. many of them served our country in uniform only to be falsely accused and convicted of crimes they did not commit. and then to get the harshest sentence estate could ever deliver -- sentence a state could ever deliver. to hear their grief, sorrow and desperation as they try to put their lives together. it shows that this nation, is taking a look at whether or not capital punishment is moral. increasingly, polling shows more and more americans are saying no. the fact that one innocent person could be put to death makes the practice tomorrow--

immoral. one of the people you feature is kwame, tell us what you learned about him. guest: he is an extraordinary man, deeply spiritual, in spite of the fact that he was arrested at the age of 17 for he murder -- for a murder he did not commit, incarcerated on death row at the age of 18, served more than 35 years in prison before he was released, the fact that at this point that he is so full of love in his heart and forgiveness but is invested in the mission of putting his story

out. one of the things that stood out for me. he is a neighbor of mine. we live in greater cleveland. he told me when we met, one of the first things that stood out for him when he was being walked onto death row and being shown what was going to be his home for the rest of his life until the state took his life. one of the guards walked him to the end of the cellblock where the electric chair, which ohio at that point still used. one of the guards thought what impact their, said iowa what you to look at your hot date. here you are, a 17-year-old boy convicted of a murder that you did not commit, based simply on an eyewitness account of another young boy who instantly recanted

testimony but due to prosecutorial and police misconduct that never became clear. for this man to still be living his life, full of joy, but also committed to the abolition of capital punishment is one of the most encouraging things and awe-inspiring things and people i have encountered in my 35 years as a journalist. host: how did he get exonerated? guest: there was a crusading reporter for a newsmagazine in cleveland, who took an interest in his case. he began to look out the detail -- look at the details that had never been uncovered. he found the young man -- the

reporter that is -- who falsely testified that he had seen kwame commit the crime. the young man admitted it was false, he tried to recant and i was told that if i recanted, my parents would be in trouble. he held with a light that-- lie that sent kwame to prison. sometimes a false eyewitness will cost a person decades of their life at minimum, if not the totality of their life. host: you said he was 17 when he was sentenced to die. there have been 287 juvenile executions documented by 1980 seven, are juvenile still put on death row -- 1987, are juveniles

still put on death row? guest: this openhearted rule that the execution of juveniles, people who committed a crime before the age of 18 violated the eighth and 14th amendments. since 1987, the united states of america has no longer carried out the execution of people that were convicted before the age of 18. host: our viewers can take part in this conversation. we will open up regional lines. if you are in the eastern or central time zone, your telephone number is (202) 748-8000. if you are in the mountain or pacific, your telephone number is (202) 748-8001. keep in mind, you can always text us at (202) 748-8003.

we are always listening on social media, twitter @cspanwj and facebook.com/c-span. is there anything about the capital punishment system in the united states that applies to different races, differently? is there a racial component? guest: there absolutely is. when you look at the staggering reality, something like 42% of the people on death row are african-american, even the african americans only make up 13% of the population, it shows the inequities with the rod numbers. when you look at the number of people that have been exonerated from death row, the overwhelming

majority of them were exonerated due to police or prosecutorial misconduct shows you how the system already is to use an overused expression, it is rig ged. if you are african-american, poor, you were caught up in a situation or circumstance where the legal defense afforded to you is shoddy, you have a lot of well-intentioned, earnest police -- public defenders. i a lot of them are overworked, many of them never have experience in a capital case. i talked to some of the exonerees who were represented by divorce attorneys or barristers who had no idea about how to defend a capital case. host: let's let our viewers take

part of this conversation. i have more questions but i want theirs. we will start with charmaine from new york. good morning. caller: good morning. i have a statement more than a question. it has to do with the moral compass regarding executions. energy is energy, it can never be extinguished and people believe that when executions happen, that they are rooting that issue, they are not. if sony is executed, it is like the last thing at a bar, when they state last call. you cannot stay here, so you have to go. if people are being executed, we have to bring into this discussion about why they think

this is a resolution to any issue. it is not. when people are being put on the line and they are innocent, that is the greatest tragedy. executions for those people that believe that resolution comes in that solution, it is not because people only fear that if they fear death. i give great gratitude for writing this and ringing this information out. all of the people working towards this goal, because executions across the board should be eliminated. host: go ahead and respond. guest: i believe the color is spot on in heard motion -- the

caller is spot on in her notion that using the ultimate punishment and the quest for the search for justice is a misnomer. unquestionably, innocent people have been convicted and most likely innocent people have been killed by a government that has people on its death row who never received a fair or just defense. based on any number of circumstances could have ended up being charged with a crime that would cost them their lives. host: you talked to a lot of people who were exonerated from death sentences and incarceration, where they were innocent. what happens to the families of the victims, who thought their

loved one's killer was in prison. how does this affect them and should we care? guest: that shows how complicated and emotionally charged this issue is. it is not only the families and survivors of victims, it is also the families and survivors of those who were falsely accused. i spoke with a number of people including kwame, whose mother passed away while he was incarcerated. never knowing that her son would be found not only not guilty but exonerated. it would turn it that he did not commit the crime. it shows how almost this issue

is -- how emotional and charged this issue is. the family those who thought adjusters were served, only to find the state convicted the wrong person, what's the next ordinary burden. host: one of our followers had a question about this process. how many extricated death sentence incarcerations resulted in the prosecution of those who fraudulently prosecuted innocent people? what happened to those prosecutors and police officers who knowingly or unknowingly put innocent people on death row? guest: unfortunately, their incompetence or the extrajudicial false race to

convict somebody even if it turns out to result in the freedom of the wrongly convicted very rarely, do we hear of people being sanctioned for the role they played in someone paying the ultimate price ordinarily paying the ultimate price for a crime they were falsely accused of. host: let's talk to landon from richmond, virginia, good morning. caller: good morning. my take on it is this, have you ever killed a man? there are a lot of people who are executed who are guilty. a doctor, a nurse, we have to administer poison to kill this person. we are looking at killing this guy.

many people who work in those places and deal with executions, talk about how it smelled. when you killed him, a lot of other people felix might go along with it -- feelings might go along with it. i read an article that was talking about something that happened in southern virginia involving a white woman and -- that were killed, executed. the reality is that when you read the article, i always say god is good. you see something else in the article. the passion at that time, they

killed them in separate groups. the passion to kill the boys, it was about nothing. host: go ahead and respond. guest: the caller came in from virginia, which i think it is noteworthy and should be pointed out, just last month became the 23rd state at the first southern state to abolish the death penalty. governor ralph northam signed a bill in the last week of march putting virginia on the right side of this issue. as folks from virginia know, with the exception of texas, virginia was the southern state that put more people to death. we see that increasingly, not only are polls showing that more

and more americans are saying that capital punishment is wrong and we should remove ourselves from the shrinking list of nations that practice it. estates themselves are starting to abandon the practice even though the federal government continues to carry out execution. host: tell us who kirk bosworth is and why he is significant when we talk about exonerations of death row and falsely accused people? guest: kirk is an extraordinary man. a former marine. he was charged and convicted for the rape and murder of a nine-year-old girl. shortly after he had come home

from service. all of the stories of the 80 exonorees i examined are bone chilling. there are some things about history that stick with you. you are not able to think about how could somebody find himself in this set of circumstances. kirk, he has a great start. he is the executive director of the group i mentioned earlier, witness the innocence. kirk in a lot of ways, solved his own crime, or was instrumental. even though he was on death row, he looked for ways to get anybody to pay attention to the fact that he was innocent.

maybe there is evidence of their -- out there, he came across a book in the mid-to late 80's about the emerging science of dna. a custom to question if there was any dna evidence that could exonerate the meat that showed i had nothing to do with the rape and murder -- that could exonerate me. that showed i had nothing to do with the rape and murder. he was able to contact a former attorney who had become a judge. a county or state judge outside of baltimore. the judge did determine that there was physical evidence left

from the scene. there was some clothing that had been maintained. the sheet in which the girl had been carried away, they did testing. on the material. it turns out, none of the dna belonged to kirk. the ironic thing is, even though they did not know who it belonged to, they ran it through databases and it turns out, it belonged to a man who had served time in the same prison as kirk bloodsworth. a man who had been released two weeks fire to the death of the nine-year-old girl for the violent sexual assault of another woman. for kirk to have this miraculous

prevent where he goes from being on death row, people saying that he is the worst of the worst, responsible for the rape and murder of 89-year-old girl to somebody who had been freed. the first person that we know of freed from death row through the use of the dna. for him to go from having been clenched -- he described it as being in the belly of the whale. you just know that you are dead and you are without hope. somehow keep fighting, to continue to believe that somehow, your innocence would emerge. he is a miracle, miraculous testimony, a fierce abolitionist.

granted all of the other members of witness the innocence, there are few voices you will ever encounter who speak more passionately against the need to find the ability to forgive, but for all of us to come together to realize as long as innocent people are being sentenced to death, we as a society need to evolve. host: let's go to then from mississippi -- ben from mississippi. caller: good morning. how are we having people, innocent on death row and are supposed to have the best justice system in the world? host: respond. guest: okay.

i believe this was pointed out earlier, there are a myriad of reasons that someone in this justice system of the united states of america can end up on death row. if you come from a poor background, we already know that if you're a person of color, your chances are greater then not, if you are charged with something, charged with a capital crime you are not going to get the legal representation that would be afforded to people of means. we know that in the rush to get convictions, prosecutors and police often will resort to shortcuts if not out right criminal or false or misleading

behavior in the effort to coerce a confession or clear up a crime. yes america has an extraordinary criminal justice system that in some ways is not the envy of the world, it is studied by other countries. so many times we did not get it right. the fact that we do not get it right 70 times and not getting it right can cult an innocent person or life is the reason we are having this conversation. the reason why the conversation will increase and become more pertinent and relevant especially in light of the current president who said before came into office that abolishing the death penalty was one of his missions. host: i want to bring up a sentence from your story that talks about the number of

exonerations because of dna. there have been more than 2700 exonerations overall in the image state since 1989. the first year that dna became a factory according to the national registry of exonerations. one of our social media followers wants to bring another factor in. this person says, not only is there a racial component regarding the death penalty but does mental illness impact those accused? guest: even though the courts have ruled that a mental illness or incapacitation, diminished intelligence etc. can be factors to consider when seeking to bring charges or a conviction

against someone if they're not capable of understanding the crime, courts have ruled that these people cannot be convicted of a crime. but there is little question that the mental capacity of some people, if not the youthfulness of some people played a role in their conviction. one of the stories that stands out to meet from the national geographic piece was the story of sabrina butler smith. who is convicted of killing her two-month-old son and sentenced to die. she was 17 when the incident occurred. she was 18 when she was sentenced to death. it turns out her son had

multiple pre-existing conditions, when she was sentenced, people on the jury looked at the fact that she had attempted to administer cpr on her baby in an effort had left bruising on his sternum. and other places on his body. they saw that as evidence that this mother had tried to kill her own child. and trial she was not given a chance to speak out on her behalf. this is one of the cases where i refer to incompetence from legal representation, i believe a diverse attorney -- divorce attorney represented her. when we talk about mental incapacitation, youthfulness, we have to combine it with the fact that often times people in marginal categories do not have adequate legal representation. host: mike is coming from mary

when iowa -- marion, iowa. caller: the justice system has been criminalized. it starts with adjusters who filled docusign warrants -- with the judges who sign warrants to find something that they have already figured they already have. when the judge signs it, it is not just for that singular thing. it is for 100 things that have nothing to do with the person. including weapons of mass destruction. drugs, everything. one they walk in their, instead of arresting the guard because he bought a gram of cocaine -- arresting the guy because he bought a gram of cocaine, they

go in for everything. that way when the walkout and the person goes into the courtroom they are given a plea deal. with all of that, they are looking at 50 years, and they state you will do 10 years if they plead guilty. and they plead guilty, the judge gets incentives for putting criminals in prison. if that is not criminalizing justice, i do not know what is? host: respond. guest: the caller is suggesting is eight time-honored tradition of prosecutors blowing everything but the kitchen sink against the wall to see what will stick. we know that is often the case. i have no quibble with the suggestion. host: we talked about earlier

about virginia becoming the 23rd state to abolish the death penalty, three other states have moratoriums in place right now because of their governors. do we see any other state moving towards controlling what abolishing -- or abolishing the death penalty? guest: i believe so. the fact that each year we see fewer people public their executions carried out. going back years, a number of states imposed moratoriums because it turned out that a process using lethal injection was proving to be cruel and unusual. people were driving while being

put to death. this was not a you peacefully go off to sleep. a number of states began to say, this is not consistent with what we have been ordered to follow with the eighth and 14th amendments. last year, we saw fewer people put to death by the state collectively then were put to state by the federal government -- put to death by the federal government. an increasing number of states of not directly taking a stance to abolish the death penalty or pumping the brakes and saying let's slow down. the lawmakers, legislators are catching up with public opinion. the shows more and more americans have moral concerns

about the continued practice of capital punishment. host: let's talk to mika from baltimore, maryland. caller: good morning philip, i appreciate you joining the call. the criminal system is not good. if you have heard anything about baltimore, you know that we do not we follow any of our work --, we have a new mayor. i did vote and he is trying to do something about getting guns off the street. he did not tell anybody where to take them, he did not do specific areas at the time. he says he wants the guns off the streets. right now our mother rate is high, none of them get solved. i have been living in the city all my life, i am pressured because when you go to other

cities. if i go to virginia, go somewhere, have a glass of wine, if a crime happens, and i get pulled up, the first thing they're going to do is pull my record from baltimore. they're going to try and make it and put it on me. what do you do about with police officers like that? they will pull up my past from here, start getting into that, then try to put a crime that happened while i was in virginia, just visiting or moving there to stay there. host: respond philip. guest: thank you for that call. what i would suggest, you are engaged with the political process, you voted for your new mayor. i would look at examples, like

the folks at witness the innocence, how these people who were caught up in the teeth of the criminal justice system, to the point where they were convicted to die and they found a way to regain their freedom. rather than run off, lick their wounds and hunker down they became activists, absolutists -- absolution abolitionists -- abolitionists. it is a grassroots movement. i know we are running out of time, could i throw a kudo to another person that is very responsible for the issue of the exonerated? it is an extraordinary photographer martin schuler who

single-handedly defended this organization, even though they were reluctant for an outsider to come in and photograph them and know their stories. i wanted your audience to know the extraordinary photographer, if you've not seen the march issue of national geographic, the photos are haunting. there the issue to life -- they bring the issue to life. host: we have been showing the viewers those further throughout the segment, we are making sure to give him credit for those let's go to joe from charlestown, rhode island. caller: hello. i lived in both connecticut and rhode island, i am one of those people who believe in the death penalty. those people who are properly convicted, there is no question, dna, whatever, they should be executed.

the problem being that these people in prison who have life sentences and up killing guards or fellow prisoners. that would never happen if they were executed. there should be no doubt that these people are guilty. dna can help you that -- do that. i remember the case in cheshire where the two men murdered that woman and their daughter and try to murder their husband. they went to prison and spent their time there. that is not justice. it is true that they have been found innocent, there were probably convicted improperly, poor evidence, testifying, the jury has to say they are guilty because they have false evidence. i believe in the death penalty when there is no doubt. these people can murder again.

while they are in prison. host: go ahead and respond. guest: the argument resonates with lots of americans and has as long as the penalty has been practiced. my responses, even for the murder that is found in cold blood, that there is no doubt about their guilt, as a society, i think increasingly we are seeing that no state should kill its own citizens. if summary is guilty of the heinous crime of raping and murdering a young child, put them away for life. the fact that too often we have cases where innocent people are being put away if not death -- to death and causes us to

question if capital punishment is a mark of a just society. host: we would like to thank phillip morris for being with us here today and talking about his article. thank you so much for your time. guest: my pleasure. host: we like to thank all of our callers and guests for being with us. ♪

there -- earlier this morning the spacex crew dragon successfully dock at the international space station. four astronauts are on a six-month mission. we will watch the final phases of external docking for a few minutes, followed by a welcome ceremony aboard the iss. coverage is provided by nasa tv.