police reform efforts in the wake of the derek chauvin verdicts. then, we discussed the verdict, policing and race relations in the u.s.. watch washington journal live at 7:00 eastern sunday morning. be sure to join the discussion with your phone calls, facebook comments, text messages and tweets. guest: it is an organization of

men and women of color throughout the country, working in on, corrections and investigative agencies. we very strongly advocate for their concerns and interests, as well as the related concerns and interests of the communities we hail from. i would venture to tell you that 95-98% of our members, and there is approximately 10,000-15,000 members collectively through the country, they all seem to be working in those areas where they have grown up, where they live, where they have gone to school.

we are very intricately tied to the concerns and needs of our communities. host: you have been a police officer for years and you were the first black police chief in woodmere village, ohio, a suburb of cleveland. talk about your experience as a police officer and being the first black chief in woodmere village. guest: careerwise, there's not much i haven't done in the 45 years i was on the job. i have done patrol, traffic, undercover narcotics, worked in internal affairs. as the first black chief of woodmere, i tried to focus on those community issues which had a specific and strong impact

with youth in the community, interactions with the business environment in the community. and, trying to ensure that the officers under my command treated people the same way i did, with respect and dignity, understanding that everybody is deserving of that kind of treatment. unfortunately, i personally was not as astute politically as i currently am. so, we had differences. and i ultimately left. host: now, in your years as a police officer, and as a police chief, how have you seen policing change?

or has it changed from what it was in the past? guest: i would have to say to you that it really has not systemically changed. what people have to recognize and bear in mind is that the institution of policing as it is currently practiced has been inherently biased against people of color and low income and designed to be that way. the system of policing that we have today and has been in existence for over 400 years. having said that, there have been some rather interesting and dynamic changes over the years since i first got involved in law enforcement. training has significantly improved. the various issues coming out of

the courts that have sought to hold law enforcement accountable have changed to a certain extent. it still is required that there be more transparency within the profession. there are still significant changes that need to be made in order for people to regain and be instilled with the degrees of trust and reliability that we as a profession have to have in order to do our jobs. host: specifically what changes need to be made, especially with

the derek chauvin trial behind us, what changes need to be made in policing that could be applied all around the country. guest: the derek chauvin trial is nothing more than a small footprint towards the concepts of full justice in the community, and i am specifically talking about communities of color. where the profession itself needs to change, we need to remodel the who and how we hire. we cannot afford any longer to not properly and fully vet those people coming into the profession. we need to make sure that anybody and everybody that we hire has a stronger sense of empathy.

a better concept of cultural awareness and diversity, a better concept of conflict management, because that is what we do. we manage conflicts. if you are going to talk to the issues of diversifying your agencies, then you have to ensure that you are actually recruiting where the people are that you say you want to bring in. if you tell me that one of your primary candidates is supposed to be a black female but you do not tell me that you are putting your recruiting information in the hair salons and shopping centers where every single black woman i know goes once a week you are not hiring for black females. we must then also look at the what and how we train.

we have traditionally trained police officers to be warriors, and that is what people look at us as. we have to make sure that we now train officers to be guardians of those communities, because that is what those communities deserve. host: explain the difference. what is the difference between training someone to be a warrior and a guardian? how would that affect policing? guest: the training we have typically given places officers in a situation of us versus them. ok. we have traditionally taught officers that they have to be extremely wary and cautious of everybody they come in contact with.

that does not lend itself well to the ideas of working productively with people in the community. and, especially in communities of color. host: let me remind our viewers that i want you to take part in this conversation as well. we will open up regional lines. meaning that if you are in the eastern or central time zones, your number will be 202-748-8000. if you are in the mountain and pacific time zones, your phone number will be 202-748-8001. we are opening up a special line for members of law enforcement. members of law enforcement we want to hear from you. your line will be 202-748-8002. keep in mind that you can always text us at 202-748-8003. and, we are always reading on social media on twitter and on facebook.

now, there is a bill going through the house of representatives called the george floyd justice in policing act, and in this bill it aims to end certain police techniques including chokeholds and cardio holds, two forms of deadly police force that would be banned at the federal level and federal funding at local and state agencies would be conditioned on those agencies outlawing them. it will also add in training and investment for community programs. do you think this bill will help anything if it passes and is signed into law? guest: it is a good start. what i would have to say to you is that recognizing how the system has evolved over the years.

we are never going to fully rid ourselves of situations involving racial profiling, police abuse and misconduct, excessive use of force. ok? i think that while that is the ultimate goal of the george floyd act, it may fall short of that. but, the bill itself is a strong and very good start on bringing about accountability, and more transparency in the way that policing is conducted. host: another part of the bill would limit qualified immunity for police officers meaning that they could end up being sued for some of their actions on the job.

are you for or against that part of it? guest: i am for it. i believe that we need to, at the very least, modify how qualified immunity is implemented. whether we are able to get rid of it completely or not, toss a quarter up in the air and see where it lands. police officers as well as other public servants need to understand that when they conduct business, if they do not do it properly, fairly, and legally, there is a consequence.

whether that be losing your job, whether that be losing your house, because you did not pay attention. whether that be being prosecuted criminally. there are always consequences. host: one of our social media followers has a question for you and i assume this comes up because of the conversation around what happened with derek chauvin and george floyd. they want to know "how much force have you had to use to control an unruly suspect?" guest: only the amount of force that is necessary to control. what happened to george floyd should never have happened to anybody, black, white, or indifferent.

we have always been taught that once you have the suspect under control, there is no further need for any additional force. so, they had him handcuffed. they take him out of the car after they get him handcuffed, drop him down on the ground and now they have a knee on his neck for nine some odd minutes. any fool who is being told by the suspect i cannot breathe 27 times should have known that there was a problem. host: let us let some of our viewers take part in the conversation. we will start with andrew from houston, texas. good morning.

caller: good morning, gentlemen. chief wilson, thank you for being on the program. i want to touch on two things you said. one, the transformation of training from warriors to guardians, i think that is spot on and fantastic. the second thing i want to say is with regards to the constitution and the bill of rights, and citizens' rights. i often watch videos of first amendment auditors who go into areas and sort of test the police and see how they do with regards to upholding people's rights. do you feel like there is a need for reform so that police will always keep the rights of the citizen in their mind and, keep that at the forefront instead of trying to bust criminals? thank you very much.

guest: i would have to tell you, yes. we have to ensure -- if you look on the side of almost every police cruiser in the country what it says is to protect and serve. and, the key part of that is not just protect, but to serve. we serve the communities that we work for, not the agency. we serve the community. so, consequently, we have to ensure that people's rights are being properly observed, people are being properly treated fairly, people are being treated justly.

that is the only way that we can properly police the community. we are supposed to be there to ensure their safety. ok? if they do not trust us, we cannot properly and effectively ensure their safety. host: let us talk to ralph from augusta, georgia. good morning. caller: good morning, sir. the things that are being proposed are spot on as the caller before said. but, i worked in law enforcement in the military, i worked at equal opportunities.

my concern is that what are we going to get an actual committee to come about with reform? i would be leery of working in my community as a black man because once i go in and try to help a situation, and i do not handle it the way that the powers to be want, then i am on the line and i am being watched. they wanted to say that they were not racist, so they put me to see how i would handle him. the other thing is that i will not talk too long, but until the president, and until congress, we can talk all we want to, but until they decide to take action, nothing is going to be done because people will continue doing this stuff. there is a thing called just

cause where you can be fired for just cause. when you are in a police union, so these people, just cause. he had 19 allegations against him prior to this last. we let the powers to be let them get away with it, and look what finally happened. now we have riots. we should not have to march anymore for our equal rights. host: go ahead and respond. guest: i'm going to tell you that you are spot on. you know, everybody knows who the idiots are in their department and i will tell you

that every single one of the over 18,000 police departments throughout the country has at least one serving actively on their department, and everybody on the agency knows who it is. the problem is that nobody is speaking up and calling these people out. and, so we end up with situations like the one out of buffalo back in 2008 or 2010. carrie o'horn decided to intervene when one of her white counterparts was trying to beat up a black suspect for no reason. she ended up being fired, and had to fight until three weeks ago to get justice on her side.

the court has now said that they will reinstate her. period. now, the officer that she intervened with, the union supported him and he got promoted to lieutenant. he did ultimately get put in jail for doing the same thing all over again. but, these are the things that we need to ensure across-the-board. people have to talk up. the system will not hold us accountable unless we hold ourselves accountable. host: so, how do you get around what has been called the blue wall of silence where even if a police officer does something wrong, other police officers will not say anything?

or should you get around that? guest: we have to get around it. we can no longer allow the idiots to remain in place because they are just as much a danger to us as they are to everybody in the community. i could tell you a couple of horror stories about going on a call after one of the idiots has been there and riled people up. so now i go on the call and i have to argue with everybody. i have to take the risk of people wanting to be mad at me because i am there representing the institution that has just cause them harm.

host: let us talk to dan from bridgewater, new jersey. good morning. caller: yes, sir. i am exasperated with police training, and i have to say that the unindicted co-conspirators are the city fathers because they do not give adequate training. this guy, chauvin, i am sure he was not trying to kill mr. floyd, but he did not know what he was actually doing. and there is the saying amongst the police, they said that if you can talk, you can breathe. that is such an idiotic comment that only depicts how little they know. mr. chauvin is a victim of poor training and he was no better than when you are pressing on somebody's back when his chest is crushed on the ground, there is no way to inhale. if he speaks, he is using the residual air that would have

saved his life. so, if chauvin had been better trained, if the chiefs and the city fathers will allow us to better train them, even as volunteer physicians, a lot of this would not happen. a little cpr and understanding of physiology for the officers would go a long way. host: do you agree that the death of george floyd comes from poor training? guest: i would say that george floyd's death came from a lack of compassion, a lack of adherence to human decency.

there is no question whatsoever in my mind that derek chauvin did not know what he was doing. he knew exactly what he was doing. anytime somebody tells you 27 separate times i cannot breathe, you as a law enforcement officer are obligated to provide some level of emergency medical care. that was not done. you had three other officers standing there, watching this take place. they as well have to share that blame, because any one of them could have reached over, grab chauvin either shoulders and told him, hey, get up.

host: let us go to david from erie, pennsylvania. caller: one thing i would like to say, it is amazing how we group everyone together in one group. the police officer in minnesota was guilty, fine. he does not represent 90% of all of the other police officers that do their job every day, day in and out the right way. but everyone wants to lump everyone together. it is frustrating as a basic white guy at 50 some years old. i cannot believe they want to lump everyone together, the same people that are complaining about their lot in life are doing the same thing.

it does not make any sense to me. host: go ahead and respond. guest: and i have to agree with you on that. one of the principal programs that we do in the community is entitled what to do when stopped by the police. it is principally an educational program that we use to advise people both law enforcement and community of the best ways to interact with law enforcement. one of the specific things that i tell people no matter where i go is yes, we have a large number of idiots on the job. the best to interact with law -- the vast majority of law enforcement officers across this country, all we want to do his work, do our job, and up helping

somebody -- end up helping somebody, go home with no injuries, complaints that come to see mama and the dog. host: a social media follower has a question about the number of firearms in the united states. they want to know whether the number of firearms has complicated law enforcement. i always felt the cops felt the brunt of this. the number of guns in the country does that make law enforcement harder? guest: i am going to tell you yes, particularly where it concerns the assault weapons. in my experienced consideration there is no need for an ordinary

citizen to have an ak-47 or m -15. even the designer of those guns did not intend that they be used by the general public. cops ended up back in the mid-to late 70's going from revolvers to semi automatics because of the proliferation of high caliber handguns in the community. i have to go along with that idea. the overwhelming number of weapons in the community has made our jobs harder.

host: let's talk to rob from missouri, good morning. caller: good morning. how are you? i am upset about a lot of things considering george floyd, breonna taylor and others, we should direct our attention into solutions. police officers should be trained for two years and a lot of emphasis should be on community policing so they can become more sensitive two what goes on there so they are not so jumpy. i think white police officers and some black police officers view the black community as a threat to them and their well-being. the way they react needs to be weeded out.

until that is done, policing will not get that are in america. secondly, when a doctor makes a mistake and the patient dies, he is covered by liability insurance but when a doctor commits homicide, it is homicide. you do not say that he made a mistake. we need to distinguish between those when we look at police officers and look at them when they are committing homicide and when it is a mistake. guest: i have to in certain ways agree. let's take as an example the shooting in ohio. based on everything i have seen, even taking into consideration the community uproar, it is likely that is going to be called a good shooting.

as opposed to let's go back a few years, the shooting in south carolina of walter scott. no way could not be considered good. the problem we have is the actions of the person and the law enforcement officer involved. if they are moving away from you -- the standard is, tennessee versus garner, that you must be in fear of your life or threat to someone else. if they are moving away from you, they are not threatening you.

the situation in virginia, he was in the car with his hands out the window, you can see that he is not armed, there is no need for additional force. this is what riled people up. this is what we need to seek legislation and policy change and enhanced and increased training to get rid of in our profession. until it happens we will continue having this discussion. host: a study you worked on in 2015 for the national association of black law enforcement officers shows a high number of responders felt that racial profiling happened and was condoned by their agency. do you think that is better or worse?

guest: it has not changed. we did two of those studies, both were published. we got the same results. at least amongst african-american and latino officers. we know that racial profiling exists. we know that in some cases it is condoned by supervisors. and administrators, we police differently than our counterparts. we seem to be more accepted in the community than our counterparts. that is because those are communities that we come from, we grew up in those communities,

we live in those communities, we got married there. we sent our kids to school in those communities. we go to church in those communities. we are a better known entity. when we go on the job, we go back and live in those communities. host: what do you see as the biggest challenge for black law enforcement officers? guest: learning that we have to talk up more, we have to be more vocal about the issues in policing. being in those agencies, what you have to recognize is that out of the 18,000 police

departments across the country, 800,000 law enforcement officers, we only make up 12% of the community. research that we have conducted has indicated, where ranking officers are concerned, we make up less than 4%. i served as a senior patrol lieutenant for the state campus police department in rhode island for 20 years. as a lieutenant, i was one of the 10 highest ranking black police officers in the state. coming from cleveland, ohio where out of 8 agencies, at

-- 80 agencies, at least 25% of those agencies had a black chief or black deputy chief. plenty of captains and lieutenants, a bunch of sergeants. host: lambert is calling from brooklyn, new york, good morning. caller: i have been listening to the conversation and i am very intrigued. i am concerned, i have heard many times that the union, not the police, the union fighting for the police, the police operate under laws that they

execute their duty by. they are dictated by the court, made by the state and the court determines how they interpret.