successes we've seen at the state level in these pilot programs for vehicle miles traveled fee. host: if viewers want to learn more about infrastructure need, you can go to transportation.org , the website for the american association of state highway and transportation officia or listen the c-span radio app. "washington journal" continues. host: turning our attention to the border surge in migrants from central america, joining us is cynthia arnson, the latin american program director at the wilson center. cynthia arnson, i want to begin with the vice president, kamala harris, who has been tasked to the president to address this issue of migrants coming from central america. here's what she had to say when she met thursday with nation leaders about the migrant surge in the northern triangle. ♪ --[video clip]

>> the question has to be, why do people leave home? either they are fleeing some harm, or because they are unable to satisfy their basic needs of taking care of the families because the resources are not there, so they have to go elsewhere. so i would look at it in terms of that, and what is going on. if you look at the acute issues in particular affecting the northern triangle, we are looking at extensive storm damage because of extreme climate, we are looking at drought in an area in a region where agriculture is one of the most traditionally important basis for their economy. we are looking for what is happening in terms of food scarcity as a result of that, and in fact incredible food insecurity, which we call hunger, food insecurity. we are looking at therefore a number of issues that also relate to poverty, extreme

poverty, and also there is violence obviously coming out of those regions. when you look at the root causes, we are also looking at issues of corruption. we are looking at the issue of climate resiliency and the concern about a lack of economic opportunity. so how i see it is that for us to be effective in that region, among the work that we can do together, we have to get people a sense of hope. a sense of hope that help is on the way. host: cynthia arnson, what did you hear from the vice president? guest: i heard a lot of really good information about the root causes of migration from central america. i think she quite rightly put her finger on the devastating hurricanes that hit central america in rapid succession, within the period of about two weeks in november of last year,

hurricanes iota and eta. they destroyed the lives and livelihoods of about 7.8 million people in honduras and guatemala. she also referenced food insecurity, which we know from the world program and the intermarket development bank, has gotten much worse over the last 10 years. it has been the worst drought in about 40 years in central america, particularly the central triangle. the stresses on people's livelihoods, the number of people who are still engaged in agriculture who can no longer make a living because of extreme weather cycles i think is really an important driver, and one we haven't focused on that much. additionally, we've talked about poverty and violence and corruption as root causes, or as

push factors, and now i think the climate issue has really come front and center. i think it is an extremely important factor in something that needs to be really front and center in the policy response. host: when you look at the three countries we are talking about, how do they differ and which country is worse off? where are we seeing the most migrants coming from? guest: the most migrants now seem to be coming from hunter is , again a country that was -- honduras, again a country that was battered by hurricanes, that is one of the poorest countries in the hemisphere that had extreme levels of corruption. the president, who came into office after a heavily disputed election in 2017, is an unindicted co-conspirator in the trial of his brother who was

recently convicted for trafficking. the possibilities of hondurans to make a living, to survive, and to meet basic needs, especially in the wake of these hurricanes i think is really in question. and it is interesting that just yesterday, the vice president announced slightly over $300 million in aid to the northern triangle, focused exactly on immediate impact relief for people who have been affected, so food aid and emergency housing and these kinds of things that will be provided by a range of entities in the u.s. government, u.s. agency for international development, state department, department of defense and the department of

agriculture helping provide food assistance. the idea is to ride an immediate sense -- provide an immediate sense of help for people whose choice is to stay home and starve, or migrate to the united states. host: an associated headline about the vice president on guatemala, she talked -- virtually had a discussion with that leader, pledging more money and strengthening cooperation. why? what is needed in guatemala? guest: guatemala also was heavily affected by the hurricanes. it is a country that has been deeply impacted by corruption, by an effort to remove the u.n. commission against impunity. we've seen just in the last two weeks or so, that one of the magistrates of the constitutional court was prevented by congress from taking her seat. she is somebody who has been a

strong supporter of anticorruption investigations, been a strong supporter of involving local communities and indigenous communities in development projects, and she basically has fled guatemala. so it's a country that has a great deal of its own problems in governance, but it also shares a long border with honduras. guatemala is a transit country, not only a source country of migrants, particularly from the highlands where poverty is a significant driver of migration. it also has this border with honduras. there have been discussions with the government of mexico and the government of guatemala to beef up enforcement along the border to prevent migrants from coming to the southern border. so mexico, for example, has put

another 10,000 troops on its southern border with guatemala and guatemala intern has reinforced -- in turn has reinforced militarily the long border with honduras. the sense is to relieve the pressure on the u.s., on their border, leave what has become a bed of a political crisis for the biden administration, and then simultaneously, begin the high-impact programs to address the root causes, but also deal not only with immediate relief but also start to address some of these longer-term drivers such as corruption, lack of opportunity, and violence. host: what is the situation like in el salvador? guest: el salvador recently has been less of a source of migration. it is a government with which the biden administration has had a great deal of friction.

-- has high levels of popularity and in the recent congressional elections, has increased the support that he has from his party and his party coalition. he is a leader that has really run roughshod over a lot of democratic norms. a year ago, bringing the armed forces into the congress when legislators were refusing to approve his security budget. he has defied rulings of the supreme court. and had a very heavy hand in enforcing covid lockdowns, arresting people, throwing them into jail for violating the lockdowns. so there is a sense that he is governing as an authoritarian. el salvador traditionally has

been one of the closest u.s. allies in central america and has had a compact through the millennium challenge corporation , was one of countries singled out during the obama administration for an mcc compact, and there is friction and you see it with this tit-for-tat refusal. -- came directly to washington and did not get a meeting at the white house in february. it was said he was looking to gain political advantage in advance of the elections, and when the state department special envoy for the northern triangle visited el salvador and other countries recently, he was refused a meeting with president boo kelly -- the president. there is a great up -- amount of cooperation with the foreign

ministry, other ministries of the government. but with the president, there seems to still be a great deal of friction. el salvador is a country that continues to have high levels of violence where there continues to be a lack of opportunity. but again, we have to be careful not to gauge the levels of violence only by homicide statistics, and they have gone down, gone down in a number of countries in the northern triangle. but there are other crimes that really affect the daily lives of people in profound ways, such as the extortion that gangs continue to exert and practice. it is very difficult for poor people, shop owners, people in central markets who are forced to pay extortion or threatened

that their children will be harmed, their daughters will be raped, and another issue i think throughout the northern triangle is set aside, the killing -- femicide, the killing of women. gender-based violence is extremely high and needs to be part of the set of issues that are addressed as the biden administration looks to reduce or help resolve some of the root causes of migration. host: how many years have you been studying central america and these countries? guest: a very long time. it is almost embarrassing to admit, a better part of four decades, starting with the wars in central america in the 1980's. what's really interesting is that there were -- central america was one of the most important national security

issues during the cold war in the 1980's. after those wars were settled and the cold war was over, the united states and others in the international community really kind of backed away. and i think that's a lot of when these issues of governance and of standing up police forces and pushing reforms, pushing for tax reforms, pushing for more inclusive societies, that's a time when these pressures could have had a lot more impact, and yet we were really absent. and then during the clinton administration in the 1990's, there was renewed attention because of the devastation of hurricane mitch. if you look at a country like honduras, you can see how the phenomenon of gang violence, the movement of people from rural to

urban areas, took place a result of hurricane mitch. there was an attempt to deal then, and we kind of didn't pay much attention for a number of years until the first crisis of unaccompanied minors during the obama administration in 2014. that's i think probably the time when the united states, other than in this cold war period, paid the most -- the greatest amount of attention, devoted the greatest amount of resources, and yet a lot of those efforts were dialed back if not canceled during the trump years. so we are once again with a migration surge and a sense that what is wrong in central america needs to be addressed, or we are never really going to reduce these tremendous migration pressures that have dogged

administrations for many years. it's not just a problem that the biden administration is facing. host: to our viewers, here's your opportunity to bounce your perspectives, questions, and comments at cynthia arnson. republicans dial in at (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. text us at (202) 748-8003. just put your first name and city and state. tina from huntington, independent. caller: thank you for taking my call. i come from miami in the 1980's and watched that surge. my question and concern as we continue to throw money at these countries. we are throwing it to the country itself and now we have

ms. harris saying we will give you more, and we are giving it to the individuals crossing illegally, which will deplete our welfare and charity systems for americans. why don't we just acquire them as territories, go into negotiations? it would be cheaper on the taxpayer. that's my concern. host: understood. guest: thanks for that question. in reality, if you look at foreign assistance as an overall percentage of the u.s. budget, it is infinitesimal. i wish i had the figure to pull out of my head, but i don't have it in front of me. it is a tiny, tiny fraction of what the u.s. government spends on domestic social welfare and social programs. i don't think it's really viable anymore. there were times back in the early 20th century when the united states did send the

marines and did occupy countries , nicaragua, the dominican republic, over and over again. and that didn't really solve the issue either. i think there is really no way for the united states to go in and take over these countries without some kind of protracted military conflicts, which i don't think any of us wants. but you raise an important point, which is that you can't give money to people who are corrupt. and i would agree with you 100% on that and i think the biden administration is actually focusing on that issue, and making the theme of governance, good governance and anticorruption a central component of the current approach. and it says, we are not going to give you money that's just going to be stolen. we are going to insist on

transparency and accountability, and the other part of this is that the money isn't just going to go to governments. the idea is to be able to strengthen the organizations in civil society that are pushing for accountability, that are pushing for transparency, international relief organizations and domestic relief organizations, that are in a much better position to use u.s. funding in a transparent and effective way so i don't think it's the case that corruption is being ignored. on the country, i think it is front and center in the u.s. approach, but thank you for sharing those concerns. host: here is a tweet -- army pushing guatemala and mexico to a border war? -- are we pushing guatemala and mexico to a border war? guest: i don't think it's coming to that. border war