♪ announcer: the house administration committee will be hearing the threat assessment from the generate six attack on the u.s. capitol. watch live this afternoon at 3:00 p.m. eastern on c-span come online at c-span.org, -- >> joining us from axios. calm you made the point that most electric cars are luxury and most electric car owners wealthy and use of the opposite needs to be true. >> to combat climate change, we need everybody, most parts of the world to live their lives in a cleaner way.

so it of it is just the wealthy able to drive cleaner cars that will be a smaller slice of the population and therefore we would not reduce emissions. so in order to reduce emissions in the transportation sector in the united states, which is the largest emitter -- the largest sector of emitting in the united states, we need electric cars available, affordable, and appealing, to all types of people. we are starting to see that now but the hurdles that remain. host: i want to share with you the website klobuchar.com, and if -- plug share. -- plugshare.com, and if you have an electric vehicle it is a breakdown state by community where you can plug in your vehicle. how are we doing and being able to plug in your car as you are traveling home to work our cross-country? guest: it is improving over the

last decade, there have been any more charging stations put in place, largely due to private competition and state and utilities. data something the biden administration is hoping to do with the infrastructure plan. the president proposes 174 billion dollars into electric vehicles and infrastructure including public charging. it is also about making sure people can afford to put charging stations where they live. there are two challenges when it comes to lower income people. the first is, it can be expensive to buy the faster charger. technically you can plug in your car to any outlet, but that takes more than one day. so there is that challenge. the second one is a lot of lower income people live in apartment buildings that do not have charging capabilities. in addition, the price concerns i see in the market. host: we read your work at

axios.com and now in breakthrough energy, which is what? guest: breakthrough energy is a network founded by bill gates, supporting the move to clean energy through a variety of programs. that includes investments involving programs. they brought me on to launch internal initiative. we will cover opportunities and challenges of moving to cleaner energy. the electric vehicle challenge is one key part of the equation. one big thing bill often says in his new book that came out in february, is we need to bring the costs down of the clean energy. he calls it the green premium. this is a perfect example. we are further along on electric vehicles than other things, like cement, and steel. i chose to focus on electric vehicles in my axios column, because it is one of the most common ways individual people face a decision that could have

an impact on climate change. whereas an individual cannot buy green cement, let alone thinking about it. but a car is something we innovate with everyday. all the cost of these technologies need to come down and that is a big thing we are trying to do it breakthrough energy. host: and an issue of electric cars and clean energy came up at an event in wisconsin with the vice president, kamala harris. vp harris: we must be able to compete. so this is where we stand in the order of things. but it is also about an investment, and our ability as americans, to always have the ability to see what we can be, unburdened by what has been. it is about what we must, and can, do, to pursue innovation for the sake of making things better for american families. making things easier for american families.

and creating jobs. the sustainable energy research on microgrids and batteries, that is the kind of work happening here. when i was there, someone said, how are autoworkers feeling about it? the uaw is supporting what we are doing. because this is going to be an investment by our government that also will make us. it is our goal, the leading manufacturer, as a country of electric vehicles. i recently visited a site in our country, one of the leaders on electric school buses. host: that was vice president kamala harris. there's a tweet from dancing, i saw story that the competitor of tesla had the first ad on s&l for their electric car. elon musk hosting the show. the car with a reported price tag of $77,000. we heard from the vice president

developing comes at a price tag. here's a look at the average price of new vehicles. any harder come i want to get your reaction. if you purchase new compact car, $22,500 and a hybrid cart $27,800, and a minivan $41,000 on average and electric vehicle $53,000 and a full-size pickup truck $55,000. your comment? guest: i watched s&l as well and i counted three electric vehicle commercials. clearly tesla's competitors were trying to reach elon musk fans. the trend is ongoing in the right direction. for my column i spoke with scott hartmann, you researcher at the university of california davis, in the transportation department. he was sharing data that 11 of the newest battery electric vehicles introduced in the u.s. between 2018-2020, each of those

11 are considered luxury vehicles. so the prices, for now, are going up. dark two reasons for that. one -- there are two reasons for that. one, there continues to be for now competition for the luxury car driver. the second reason is, as automakers, general motors and others, are having aggressive electric vehicle goals, eventually they need to be able to sell and make a profit on each individual car. so if they want to produce them and sell them on a mask out, they need to increase prices to do that, because as of now the prices even selling cars at the loss -- the prices, they are selling the cars at a loss. that is not comforting to the consumer but is nonetheless the case. other experts i talked to emphasize they anticipate prices to become more affordable.

whether that means electric vehicles will grow at a slower pace and eventually reach parity with gasoline engine cars, as opposed to i do not expect prices to go down much, in part because automakers are constantly innovating and want to keep adding ells and whistles to cars. so therefore we can expect the prices to go up. the prices of traditional cars are also going up, so there is that challenge. hopefully, we start to see that but for now we are still seeing these $70,000-$80,000 cars that are electric, which is not feasible for most people. i would also emphasize most lower income people buy used cars. so the more electric, the more affordable electric cars to get on the market, eventually those will cycle into the used car market as well. host: and information from the white house regarding white house -- regarding electric vehicles and part of the administration's energy plan that it would give consumers a point-of-sale rebate and tax

incentives to buy american-made electric vehicles. it would establish grants and incentives to build as many as 500,000 electric vehicle chargers by 2030. it would electrify 20% of school bus fleet nationwide and electrify the federal fleet, including the u.s. postal service. this tweet saying, the initial talk of some electric cars is higher, you never have to buy gasoline. the cost of electricity to charge them as the small fraction of what one would spend on gasoline. if you own an electric vehicle, we would love to hear from you a number 202-748-8002. otherwise we are dividing our phones regionally and we will go to kenneth from missouri. >> where do you think we are going to get electricity from? you cannot get it from solar and wind, so all these big electronic or electric stuff that is going to be used,

electric cars, electric clocks, -- trucks, electric this and that, you do not have agreed to do it with, so answer me this, where are you going to get the extra electricity without straining the grid, without blackouts and brownouts, all over the united states, thank you very much. host: thank you, can. guest: this one raises a lot of good questions. i will answer in two parts. first, of course an electric car is only as clean as where the electricity is coming from. i will say studies have found that in most scenarios, and electric car even if it is from a mix of coal and natural gas electricity is still cleaner than a gasoline engine because of no particulates, pollution coming out of the tell pipe. but it is definitely not nearly as clean. now, the united states is rapidly growing its wind and solar resources. so it is easier to make the electricity grid cleaner.

and then to turn-then have a lot of other industries like cars, depend on that, as opposed to making the liquid fuel cleaner for each individual vehicle. so there is that. but alyssa raises an important question about the reliability of the grant -- the listener raises an important question about the reliability of the grant. we have seen -- reliability of the grid. we have seen issues where the grid is not stable in texas or california. it is not because they're too many electric vehicles being charged because they're not that many electric cars on the road today. but, over time if president biden and other politicians succeed in our climate goals, the amount of electricity demand we have is going to grow significantly. so, yes, there needs to be really careful policy put in place here. and you know, i hope that happens. there was always a concern there is not enough conference of planning but that is definitely

something i know is on the biden administration's mind. and you have to make sure there are a lot of extra resources available including a lot more power lines, keeping existing power plants open in some parts of the country, particularly the midwest, to make sure there is enough electricity so everyone can charge their cars and keep the lights on. host: a quick follow-up from russ in texas. is there a new battery technology in the pipeline that can help bring electric transportation to full use? adding lithium sources are not enough to provide full auto production for the world. >> that is another great concern. i think as the u.s. and other parts of the world become rapidly dependent and use more electric vehicles, the question of whether critical minerals that make these batteries are coming from. you show the clip of the vice president earlier, about trying to be china at this game. i hate to say it, but china is

far in the late right now. so we have a lot of catching up to do. whether you think china is a good partner or not, kinda has done an amazing job of dropping the prices of solar energy in particular. so they are also doing the same thing with electric vehicles. i think one challenge the u.s. will have, will be to try to be tough on china. but china is going to offer the most affordable vehicles, that would be appealing as well. so, where these sources come from for the battery is going to be critical as well. i think that is something else the biden administration is trying to support, domestic production of some of these minerals. but it can be very difficult to get any sort of industrial facility built in the united states anymore, considering a lot of the opposition to that. but i think it is going to be critical for us to have some sort of success competing with china. host: we are talking with amy

harter, vice president of breakthrough energy, joining us from seattle, washington. she is also a columnist for axios.com. from michigan, tim, good morning. caller: hello, steve. host: good morning, to. caller: i am so happy you are back. i remember the day you came back , and i heard that guy from texas. steve is back. i wrote it down in my notebook. it was like, steve is back. anyway, before i get to amy, and i love you, amy. [laughter] anyhow, i just want to say, hello to margaret in texas. she is 93. i am so glad she survived that, you know, climate change, you know, that is a hoax, for a freeze over, and i also want to

say hello to david in new jersey. that splendid young 97-year-old world war ii veteran. host: they are both regular colors. -- regular collars -- callers. your calling to speak with amy? caller: and i want to go fishing with other callers. i was a big anti-nuke. are you still there? host: we sure are, go ahead, tim. caller: i was a member of safe energy coalition when i was owing to wayne state -- when i was going to wayne state. anyhow, you know how you power the electric cars? it is simple. you build windmills, or turbans, in this country -- turbines, in this country, at union skill jobs with benefits and pensions.

you put people to work. you elect them -- errct -- erect them in the median on freeways. because every time a truck drives by, you know the wind they generate. as far as birds getting chopped up by a wind turbine, i have seen them. if a bird's that stupid to get chopped up by one, well, it deserves to go the way of the dodo. host: we will leave it there. let me go back to his earlier point. asking a simpler question, why are electric vehicles so much more expensive? >> that is a great question. that is the crux of my coverage. the nissan leaf was around before tesla came on the scene and that was more affordable. but there was not the pick up. then tesla came on the scene and was the sexy, exciting

technology company. tesla says it is a technology company, not a mobility company, which is important. that is when electric cars really started picking up because they were exciting to drive for other reasons. if you notice, and i have been watching this more, as automakers talk about their technology or advertise it, they do not talk about saving the planet. they talk about sitting money on gasoline. or they talk -- saving money on gasoline. or they talk about the exciting features a tesla, fork supper, has. there is a reason for that -- that a tesla has. there's a reason for that. most of us will buy a car based on these other reasons. it is not wrong that electric cars have mostly been driven by wealthy people. this is typically how technology works, particularly in transportation. i mean it is the luxury model that adopts new technology first. the fancy cars back in the day had airbags and things like that.

eventually, that came to be standard in all cars. so, if it goes as planned, that is what will happen eventually, with electric cars. so far, we are not seeing things break loose, in terms of having electric vehicles be a feature and a lot of other cheaper models. general motors pledging on the electric sales by 2035, though type -- those types of goals will help but there are still challenges. i would say this is how technology often starts out, is by attracting the wealthier segment of the population. host: rate owns an effect -- ray owns an electric vehicle, in napa california, good morning. why did you decide to purchase one? caller: the oil wars since the oil and bark off 1972, and that you do not -- since the oil embargo in 1972. and i have not bought gasoline

since september last year. i have been driving and have at gto, firebird, el camino. electric cars are snappy, they handle good and they are clean. with a gas car you can smell the oil. you get used to it and do not notice it until you have been out of it for a while. the thing about charging, a while back everyone was charging the car at night, it would be better for the grid. when everyone goes to bed at night to have to shut the grid down and that is not good, and restart in the morning. if people plug cars in at night they would be able to keep the grid running and it would be far more economical. i switched my pg&e over try get different rates during the day so if i tart at night it is half price. host: interesting. ray, thank you for the call. guest: i would be interested to know if the electric car, if ray, it is his only car. or if yes and a gasoline car for road trips or how he handles that. one key thing is that the data shows the vast majority of

electric car owners have at least two cars. so in my interviewing for this column and the next one i will be doing, i've been asking people, what you drive? and they say they drive an electric car. that was have another plan for longer trips, whether sharing someone's car or owning an electric car. they say we only use this to go on ski trips. so, in order, you know, for lower income people, to afford these cars, most lower income people cannot afford to cars or cannot afford a and another cheaper car. but, you know, i think it is great to hear ray's experience. i think those are the reasons why other people by the. host: ryan, from phoenix, arizona, good morning. caller: good morning, c-span, good morning, any. interest -- amy. interesting topic. i'm a big fan of the electric

car concept. i drove the tesla s, an amazing car. i agree with the prior caller. the audi, porsche, use electric engines now. nissan, toyota hybrid, definitely the technology is getting there. there are couple of things, one, the grid, getting ready for it. in california, rolling blackouts. in arizona they are advertising rolling blackouts for us this summer especially if it is hot etc.. and especially if car manufacturers are wanting to go all electric by 2035, electric cars are going to, in general, before the elite, and i would be a good time to buy a gas car. in the future, electric cars would be great but we definitely need nuclear power plants and they definitely need oversight. electric cars and batteries are pricey, the technology is getting better but it is a pipe

dream to think we will be ready in 15 years at the pace we go. host: ryan, thank you for the call. i want to add to what ryan was saying because that was a similar sentiment there last month on washington journal and bob dean's was joining us. this color phone again with this comment to ryan's point. [video clip] caller: i want to ask the gentleman a couple of questions. i guess i am from a poor state. you know, people drive used cars. i do not know if you know what a junker is or a clunker, a card that is driving down the road. you look over and they might have two different fenders, two different colored fenders, or two different colored doors. you are wondering how the car is making it on the road, you know? does he think this is a fashion statement? host: what is your question? caller: i mean, do you think

poor people are driving these cars just for a fashion statement? i mean, you know, that is all they can afford. i am driving a 12 euro dues carl now. -- 12 year old used car now. i cannot afford an $80,000 tesla. host: i am with you. caller: you are not with me. you think money pops out of peoples, out of thin air. host: amy harder, what are you hearing from that caller last month and ryan a moment ago? guest: this is one reason there continues to be hesitancy to bind electric are among lower income people. this is one way the biden administration is trying to counteract that. over the lifetime of running a car, and electric cars cheaper. that does not do much for the person who needs a cheaper price right off the bat, which is why rebates are so important.

that is one reason why the biden administration is pursuing that route. in addition to expanding tax incentives, which ultimately ends up benefiting wealthier people more because they have more tax liability. i will say that the comment about the use cars i think, as i said earlier, i think when more people -- i was looking online to potentially buy a car myself. the cheapest used test i can find is $38,000. i think as more people, i did not end up buying that come i think as more people start buying -- others that start out at $40,000. and the nissan leaf coming out with more affordable models, hopefully that will eventually allow more affordable models to come on board. but i think even then, you know, that type of price is probably not going to be relevant.

so one potential metal strategy or middle solution, is to get this person driving this car that has mismatched doors by getting them into a used toyota prius. sure, it is not a luxury, exciting and sexy. elon musk jokes about how he is driving a prius, on snl. the amount of greenhouse gas emissions emitted from a hybrid is 25% less then a fully gasoline engine. it is not transformative perhaps , as much as all electric, but for some people, particularly in really lower income areas, that may be they should be able to afford, be able to buy and encouraged to buy a hybrid. that is still an improvement and is more affordable that they can buy it. host: and a frequent tweeter on this program following up to the collar comment earlier saying, maybe that is why we need to build infrastructure?

romney is our last call from southern pines, north carolina. you are on with amy harder. caller: good morning and thank you for taking my call. my question, everyone is talking about the greatness of driving an electric car but your guest pointed out about china and the minerals requires and what about the other aspect of trying to save the planet, stripmining all these areas, which is generally carried out by a large economically challenged population. also the clearcutting of everything to put on solar panels and windmills, and where do we take all the solar panels that do not work? there is no way to violate dispose of them? or those batteries? host: run, thank you for the call.

-- ronnie, thank you for the call. guest: every energy resource comes with an ugly side, so fossil fuels, oil, natural gas, and coal, having this terrible impact, a devastating impact on our planet's temperature. that is an overriding concern. and it is why president biden and break your energy and most folks say we need to reduce energy dependence on these fossil resources. it is also the case that wind and solar and hydropower and nuclear power have their challenges as well. as the country and the world moves toward cleaner resources there needs to be a really aggressive and candid conversation and policies put in place that address these. that includes making sure to the best of our ability minerals mined in africa and owned by chinese companies, that it is being done in a sustainable way.

and also yes, wind and solar take up land. nimby'ism, not in my back yard, is ring its head with wind turbine and solar projects. it has to be a lot of these so one does not become the only one rely on. to satisfy as many people as we can and address a greater good of addressing taught climate change. host: are guess joining us from seattle, washington, amy harder, her work available at axios.com where she serves as a columnist and she is currently vice president of breakthrough energy. thank you for being with us. >> the house of administration committee holds a hearing on the threat assessment of the chinese six -- january 6 attack on the u.s. capitol. watch online or listen on the free c-span radio app. ♪ >> the new york times is calling

it, a new age of cold war competition, the political and economic tensions between the united states and china. on c-span's podcast, the weekly, we examine those tensions. among our guests, jennifer hellman with the council on foreign relations, georgetown university law professor, and she understands the challenges we are facing from china, especially when it comes to technology. >> clearly ahead for the united states is the challenge to make our own economy more competitive. part of the problem is we are seeing in market aftermarket and particularly in the markets, china is moving into, with its belt and wrote initiative, is that often the united states does not have a competitive alternative to offer. >> the china struggle, economic and militarily, as the defining part of america's foreign policy in part because china has outlined a clear path forward according to dean chang of the

heritage foundation. >> china knows what it wants. as xi jinping puts it, the china dream of great revival of the chinese people. what that means is, xi jinping sees a china that is going to return to being the dominant power in asia. and a major power is not the major power, of the world. >> more of our conversation on c-span's, the weekly. listen and follow whatever you get your favorite podcast. >> every monday on washington journal we take a closer look into the issue of coronavirus. today we focus on children and vaccines. this is the headline this morning from usa today, parents are cautious on shots for kids, in large part because of hesitancy, the uncertainty over vaccines. joining us from philadelphia is dr. paul offit, the director of