reviews the prospects for a summit between president biden and president putin. we will take your calls and you can join the conversation on facebook and twitter. "washington journal" is next. ♪ host: good morning. it is sunday, may 23, 2021. nearly 70 years since the start of the korean war the south korean president came to the white house and later attended a wall of remembrance groundbreaking. like the focus on the war that is sometimes called the forgotten war we spent the first hour hearing from you about the legacy of the korean war. phone lines split this way this morning -- for veterans and their family members,

(202)-748-8000. for korean americans, (202)-748-8001. all others (202)-748-8002. you can also send a text at (202)-748-8003. if you do, include your name and where you are from and otherwise catch up with us on social media on twitter @c-spanwj and on facebook at facebook.com/c-span. it was 70 years and 11 months ago the korean war officially began in june of 1950. an armistice signed in 1953 that remains in effect today even as leaders have pledged to work toward a formal peace treaty. approximately 5 million soldiers and civilians lost their lives during the war when it came to u.s. casualties.

u.s. deaths 36,574 died in another 103,284 were injured. the south korean president talked about the legacy of the korean war. this is him speaking through an interpreter at the ceremony for the groundbreaking of a new memorial wall at korean war memorial. [video clip] >> 71 years back young men and women came in a heartbeat to the korean peninsula in the thick of gunsmoke. they were the sons and daughters of america who answered the call to defend a country they never knew and people they never met. the descendants of the founding fathers of your great country, thanks to their devotion and

sacrifice, the republic of korea could safeguard its freedom and peace and become a prosperous nation it is today. inevitably, we had to part with countless fallen heroes. today we are breaking ground for the world of remembrance -- wall of remembrance that will hold 43,769 such heroes. their courage and commitment shall live forever deeply ingrained in our memory. in 2018 i give my word to the veterans a memorial would be built to remember their names. three years later i am touched the promise has been kept. host: that was south korean president at the national mall on friday at the korean war veterans memorial. we are asking you about the legacy of the korean war. want to hear your stories, your

family's stories, how you remember the war. (202)-748-8000 if you are a veteran or a member of a korean war veteran, (202)-748-8001 for korean americans, and all others it is (202)-748-8002. as we show you a map of north and south korea. the 38th parallel in the demilitarized zone on that map. we are talking about the legacy of the korean war. before his visit to that ceremony the south korean president attended a medal of honor ceremony at the white house, becoming a rare foreign leader to participate in a medal of honor ceremony for a u.s. soldier. this is the story from "the washington post." "one of the most decorated soldiers in u.s. military history, receiving the medal of

honor from president biden at the white house within 70 years after leaving soldiers through a fierce attack during the korean war. ralph puckett junior is 94 years old and biden dripped the medal around his neck. he recounted how puckett braved enemy fire as his soldiers took control of hill 205 about 60 miles from the chinese border as they launched swarming attacks. afterward, in bitterly cold temperatures, he checked on his men, redistributed ammunition even as he was wounded. this is president biden from the white house on friday. [video clip] >> korea is sometimes called the forgotten war but those men who were there under lieutenant puckett's command will never forget his bravery. they will never forget that he was right by their side

throughout every minute of it. the people in korea has not forgotten seeing as the prime minister is here. i doubt this is happened before. all americans, like ralph puckett, joined in their fight. while the enduring partnership between our nations began a war it is testament of the extraordinary strength of our alliance. host: that was president biden from the white house friday. we will show you more from the ceremony a little later in the segment. we want to hear from you. talking about the legacy of the korean war. you heard president biden refer to it as the forgotten war. this is a column by jessica lee in the "american prospect." she wrote this back in december

focusing on the idea of endless wars and with the korean war means in that context. this year marks the 70th anniversary of the start of the korean war. it epitomizes endless war. while some americans may think it is a distant affair the conflict continues to have a profound impact on the lives of those who fought in it. in 19, the united states signed an armistice agreement with north korea and china. it was meant to be a temporary measure and remains in place to this day. the biden administration should declare the korean war over and replace the armistice with the peace treaty. it would tap into the growing bipartisan call for ending endless wars. that was jessica lee back from december of last year on formally ending the korean war. the trump administration working to that effect in getting an agreement between the leaders to work toward that goal.

we are talking of the legacy of that war. anthony in los angeles, a veteran, you were up first of this morning. your thoughts on the legacy of the korean war. caller: i was in the 89th tank battalion. host: during the war? caller: 25th infantry division in 1953 and 1954. we were at the 38th parallel. host: how do you think america remembers that war today? what should we remember about the korean war as somebody who was there? caller: well, a lot the korean

guys did not come home. i am talking on behalf of them. host: what do you think they would want you to say today? caller: that i will always remember them. host: what is the most vivid memory you have from your time over there, anthony? are you still with us? i think we lost anthony but kenneth is in buffalo, new york and also a veteran. your thoughts on the legacy of the korean war. caller: yes. well, it was kind of a mistake, a big mistake. after world war ii we let the russians have north korea. we separated the country. so everything that happened was

a foregone conclusion that the war developed and then we got sucked into it and we never meant to defend korea after world war ii. however, the north korean army was a well trained army and they had t-34 russian tanks. we sent cooks and typists from japan over to fight them with no defense against the tanks. they were basically defeated and they almost pushed out of the country and out of the perimeter until macarthur made the landing that saved the day militarily. but when they rushed up to the

yellow river there were 300,000 men, chinese army, on the others of the river. -- other side of the river. macarthur refused to admit they might enter the war. somehow there was a big intelligence failure and they did enter the war. they came in the nighttime. the chinese crossed the river, surrounded the u.n. troops, and proceeded to defeat them. they basically got the shit kicked out of us and north korea. host: on the idea of intelligence failure has there been a teaching failure when it comes to teaching the history and the lessons of the korean war?

do you think enough americans know the history you went through when it comes to the korean war? caller: americans don't know the history. they don't realize we basically got defeated over there. after the china landing the north korea army was pretty much finished. when the chinese entered the war it was 300,000 men army on the other set of the river. macarthur -- he thought there was no chance the chinese would enter the war. host: thank you for the call. a few comments from social media from viewers. michael saying it was the first war under the nuclear umbrella where there was no desire to reach a negotiated or military solution.

the idea of limited war began and has driven all the conflicts since then. this from russ saying today we are still there. why? nearly 30,000 troops kept their. no end in sight. steve said soon after my bad volunteer -- dad volunteered he got a letter from his fiancee. he started dating my mother when he got out so i am a korean war legacy. we are talking of the legacy of the korean war sometimes called the forgotten war. if you are a korean war veteran or family member, (202)-748-8000. if you are korean american, (202)-748-8001. all others, (202)-748-8002. this is chuck in marysville, california. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you. i enlisted in the marine corps

in 1951 and went to korea in september of 1952 and was there july 27, 1953. i didn't see much -- i was a sergeant on the ground -- but i did see some things. one thing i remember well is the korean civilians. we have young people trying to help us and what have you. kids 12, 13, 14 and i often wonder how life came out for them because they were the kind of people that were good kids. they helped us through some stuff and what have you that was hard to do. i have great respect for the young folks of korea. i just wanted to say i hope that we have policies that will continue to help the koreans. host: before you go, president biden receiving his second

official foreign head of state in president moon jae-in. they talked about the importance of the relationship and in several of the events. do you think that has been an important relationships for the united states? was it worth the sacrifice i guess is the question? caller: we lost 30,000 to 40,000 men and there was the disappeared but as an example, i drive a naval automobile made in korea. i have a feeling when i drive the car it reminds me if i knew any of the people that worked on this kind of car. i think that is great for americans to get with other countries and work with them.

when people work together -- you talk about loving each other it is great, but working together is better. host: thank you for your service. talking to veterans and family members of veterans, we want to hear from korean americans. we will put the phone lines on the screen as we hear from michelle in south carolina, family member of a korean war veteran. go ahead. caller: my name is michelle but i am from illinois. host: ok. go ahead. caller: thank you for taking my call. i am a regular listener. host: you are on the line for family members of veterans. did a father or grandfather serve? caller: my father served. he was the only member of my actual family that served in the

korean war and he was very proud to serve. but when he returned home he was a changed man i have to say. host: did you ever talk to him about his experience over there? did you talk about this term "the forgotten war" which has come to be used when referring to the korean war? caller: yes, i did talk to him about it. i have to say i believe overall he was very much a history buff. he is very interested in history but i have to say i think he had ptsd when he returned. he became an alcoholic. he was very scarred when he

returned. he was a sweet and loving man but he was scarred when he returned. he was nothing say man when he returned. host: did he ever seek help for any of that from veterans groups or other avenues? caller: we tried to get him to go but he did not. he did not and it was a lifelong issue until the end of his life and it ended up killing him. host: that was michelle in illinois with her family's story. hearing from family members in this first segment as we hear about the legacy of the korean war. lines for korean americans as well and veterans themselves. we mentioned that bilateral press summit that president moon

jae-in and president biden held on friday. among the issues that talked about or were asked about was the idea of meeting with kim jong-un. would president biden do that? here is the question and answer. [video clip] >> you have said you would not meet with kim jong-un without preconditions. >> yes. >> what are the preconditions and do you believe he would ever be able to meet them? >> well, what i never do is i never make a judgment on what a man or woman is going to do based on what they said. will see if he made any -- we will see if he made any commitment. the commitment has to be that there is discussion about his nuclear arsenal if it is merely a means of if we de-escalate what they are doing. if that is the case, i would not

meet unless there was some outline made in my secretary of state would have negotiated as to how we will proceed. what i would not do is i would not do what had been done in the recent past. i would not give him international recognition and allow him to move in the direction of appearing to be more, how can i say it? more serious about what he was serious about. i need to know specifics but the idea of never meeting with north korea -- i would make sure my team had met with his counterparts and i know exactly what we are meeting on. host: president biden on friday. we are talking about the legacy of the korean war. more from a few recent pieces on that topic. this from mary from "the

washington post" from a year and a half or so ago writing about the conflict saying, that war was the first large overseas conflict without a declaration of war. setting the precedent for the unilateral presidential power that is exercised today. the korean war helped enable the century's forever wars. authorizations replaced war declarations for even large-scale wars like vietnam. in 2000 one congress passed an authorization for the use of military force approving conflict against those nations, organizations, or persons that aided the terrorist attacks that occurred september 11, 2001 and those that harbored them. like the korean war president this is unexpected effects. through this process presidential war power has become a one-way ratchet. by failing to step in congress has acquiesced in the loss of its own power.

that was from the opinions section on the legacy of the korean war. we are hearing from you on that topic. bob in jacksonville, texas is a veteran. good morning. caller: good morning, john. i appreciate you taking my call. i last talked to you i believe on december 7 of last year. host: will be talking about pearl harbor? caller: we sure were. i enjoyed it. i was in the navy. i was a i lost my thought. give me a second. i was an air crewman and

researched for submarines on the coast of korea. i would like to remember, if i could, my pilot. he was one of the fattest man i ever knew. host: did you serve in world war ii and korea? caller: no. i joined in 1952 and served through 1956. host: what do you think about the term "the forgotten war" or the forever war as they are trying to put the korean war in context? what you think of those terms? caller: i don't know. i don't have a lot of thought about that.

i just know the guys i served with were just fantastic people. i hate to say it but i don't think i met quite the same type of person after i got out of the navy as i knew in the navy. they were just super people. host: did you keep in touch with them after you got out? caller: i stayed in touch with all of them until i finally lost them. i lost every one of them, my squadron members that i knew. i lost my pilot and all my friends that served with me. they are all gone and they were just, you know, just great people. host: do you mind if i ask how old you are? caller: i am 86. host: did you get a chance to see the 94-year-old, the spry

94-year-old receive the medal? caller: it was great. it was super. it is something i will never forget and i will never forget my squadron. our skipper was a guy named elmer waring. we had about 250 men in the squadron and he knew every single person and their wives and he knew their kids' names. host: sounds like a good skipper. caller: oh, he was. he was super. host: hope you keep calling in and we keep talking on the anniversaries. caller: i appreciate it,

john. host: robert in pennsylvania, family member of a veteran. caller: my dad joined the navy in 1950. i don't think you want to get drafted by the army and he was more of a navy person at heart. he didn't get to fly and emissions or anything -- any missions or anything. before the war he was going to go into business school to become an accountant and realized when he went through basic they made him a book keep for inventory for airplane parts. he ended up going down to guantanamo bay and he was bored most of the time until he formed a baseball league down there with different fleet teams.

there was a famous ballplayer went down there of the marine corps squadron. everyone was excited about it and my dad was a pitcher. they had a marine versus navy game and my dad got to pitch in the game. the marine corps pilot everybody was excited about supposedly was ted williams. my dad got to pitch against ted williams in the korean war. that was his big war story. host: did he strike out ted williams? caller: no, he said ted hit a fly ball in the outfield. host: no shame with that. caller: no and it was caught and he grounded it and it was single. couple of innings later my dad started the game and -- but paul

harvey -- my dad was from allentown, pa and followed ted's career. when it came time for ted to retire his last game up in boston was pretty controversial. i won't say why but my dad hitchhiked his way up there and tried to get tickets. couldn't get tickets anywhere. went up to the gate and bribed one of the security guards to send a note to the locker room and said he pitched against mr. williams in the fleet game down in guantanamo bay and would like to know if he had any extra tickets. supposedly, about half an hour

later, my dad was sitting there and didn't think he was going to get in and the security came out with the ticket. he got to watch them on the third base line. from what i know ted hit a homerun on his last bat and there was controversy around that because he didn't get along with the sports writers. host: before you go what is your dad's name's caller: robert. host: did he ever tell you who won the game in guantanamo bay? caller: it's kind of funny. he didn't pitch the whole game. he only pitched a couple of innings and that was secondary. it could have gotten rained on and he wouldn't have cared. host: your dad was the marine or the navy side? caller: the navy, like,

bookkeeper. host: we will say the navy won, how's that? caller: what's that? host: we will say the navy won. caller: that's good. did anybody else hear about this game? i tried to look it up in history books and the only thing i found out was that he was on the island. host: thank you for the call. thank you for the memories this morning. that's what we are talking about, your memories and the legacy of the korean war. a war that is sometimes called the forgotten war. we want to remember it this morning and hear from you and family members about it. here are more comments from social media. this is michael in portland, i spent time in korea 40 years ago and the memories of the war were still fresh in older people's minds. old the koreans would come up and thank me. the younger folks didn't have the same attitude and those kids are now governing. there's is a more realistic, not to a cynical, worldview.

this is bonnie saying, president moon is a noble man. were still really accomplish anything but the murder of innocent civilians. decent human beings negotiate. jason says, with the first not really a war in the first in costly and bloodied policing action to contain an exaggerated communist threat. this is barry out of lincoln, nebraska, family member. caller: how are you? host: i'm doing well. caller: my father served in europe in world war ii, participated in the capture of the bridge and was one of the first to occupy berlin. i am 70 years old and was only a few months old when my father

got called up to go to korea. my father was supposed to go on a train to the east and they changed his orders and he got sent to the west because if he had been on the first train, he would've been killed in the train accident they had. my father was a chosen reservoir army survivor. everyone knows about the marine reservoir but hardly anything about the army being there. out of his 1200 men regimental combat team only about 100 made it back. their commander would be given a medal of honor for what he did. my father had no use for douglas macarthur. he thought the man was a fool. he got a lot of people killed because he knew the asian mind.

my mother told me the last time they heard from my father until the next time they heard from him was nine months because they knew about the chinese intervention. they could not cover that up. what is interesting is there was intelligence that macarthur's crew paid no attention to that the chinese had already been across the river because they clashed with the marines. the marines bloodied them up fairly well and that is why they spend more effort on the marine side of the reservoir to pay them back. host: can i ask you, you said your dad was at the bridge in world war ii and was at the chosen reservoir. what story did you talk about more? which war in general did he talk about his service more? caller: i am not sure about that.

he would have tips for when we wanted to go camping and things like that and he talked about being in berlin and the occupation. but he rarely mentioned korea much at all. host: why do you think that is? caller: well, he had a bad time in korea. he had frozen feet and they really got whelped on by the chinese. i don't really know what he was like that before because i was a baby, but according to other people he was not the same. he was a decent man, hard guy. as a little note we lived in broken bone, nebraska then and my dad's dad served in world war i. there was a big ad in the papers

to join the national guard to stay home. a lot of people did that and my grandfather had no use for the national guard people at all. host: what was your dad's name? caller: floyd. host: thank you for the call. mario in connecticut for the line for korean americans. caller: i was a veteran. i went to korea in 1951 and stayed. host: until when? caller: 1952. when world war ii ended of course everyone went back to civilian life. during the talks following the war russia was given north korea to occupy and we occupied south

korea. i understand the plan was to unite eventually and for us to get out of there. the reason we were there to begin with was japan had occupied korea which they took quite some time prior. that's another story. the war was not called a war initially it was police action. i believe it was called that to make it more digestible to the american people who had just gotten out of world war ii and nobody wanted to hear about war again. it was almost dis-interesting to the people in the united states. just got out of world war ii anyway. as i personally recall i was in the air force. i did not experience, but i was stationed close to the parallel and my job was in reconnaissance.

it was a terrible, terrible war. i visited seoul on many locations and it was smothered. they said berlin was bombed to pieces during world war ii and seoul was worse than that. there is not much standing, people suffer terribly. host: did you get a chance to visit after the war? caller: pardon? host: did you ever go back to seoul? caller: i didn't. it was interesting because there was a trip offered. i don't know if it was offered by the koreans -- probably was -- and you could fly there and visit all the various areas in korea. people who fought the war or were interested in it. it was a terrible thing really. they call that forgotten i guess because no one cared.

in this country we were happy getting back to our civilian life following world war ii which i remember vividly as a young boy. i don't know what else to say about it. i made some wonderful friendships. it didn't scar me i don't think like some people suggested it did because i didn't have that terrible experience of killing people. my job was much more easy to deal with. host: do you mind if i ask how old you are? caller: pardon? host: do you mind if i ask how old you are? caller: i'm 90. host: did you get to watch 94-year-old ralph puckett at the white house? caller: i did. i thought it was marvelous. there are a lot of people unrecognized for the things they did. host: thank you for the call and thank you for your service. for folks who didn't get a chance to see ralph puckett at the white house on friday,

wanted to play part of that ceremony. this is the award citation for the medal of honor. we will play it out in its entirety. the reading of the citation that is included with his medal of honor. this is just about three and a half minutes long. [video clip] >> the president of the united states of america, authorized by act of congress, has awarded in the name of congress the medal of honor to first lieutenant ralph puckett junior, united states army, for gallantry at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty. first lieutenant ralph puckett junior distinguished himself above and beyond the call of duty while serving as the commander of the eighth u.s. ranger company during 25 november, 1950 in korea. as is your net commenced -- unit commenced the attack the enemy

had small arms fire against the advance. puckett exposed himself to the deadly enemy fire. leaping from the tank he shouted encouragement to his men and began to lead the rangers in the attack. almost immediately enemy fire threatened the success of the attack by pinning down one platoon. leaving the safety of his position with knowledge of the danger first lieutenant puckett ran across an open area three times to draw enemy fire, thereby allowing the rangers to locate and destroy enemy positions and seize hill 205. during the night the enemy launched a counterattack that lasted quadro hours. the rangers were motivated by the courageous example exhibited by first lieutenant puckett. five human attacks by the enemy element will repulsed. during the first attack first

lieutenant puckett was injured by grenade fragments but refused evacuation and continued to direct artillery support. he repeatedly abandon positions of relative safety to make his way from foxhole to foxhole to check the company's perimeter and distribute emanation among the rangers -- ammunition among the rangers. when the enemy launched the sixth attack it became clear the position was untenable. during this attack two mortar rounds landed in his foxhole, inflicting grievous wounds. now his men were in a precarious situation he commanded the rangers to evacuate the area. feeling a sense of duty to aid him the rangers refused to the order and staged an effort to retrieve him from the foxhole while still under fire. ultimately they succeeded and they moved to the bottom of the

hill where first lieutenant puckett called for devastating artillery fire on top of the hill. first lieutenant puckett's heroism and selflessness above and beyond the call of duty were in keeping with the highest traditions of military service and reflect great credit upon himself, his unit, and the united states army. [cameras shuttering] [applause] host: that was ralph puckett at the wet has on friday with president biden. just a few notes, a lot of attention given to that moment when ralph puckett pushes his

walker aside to stand next to the president to receive his medal of honor. dan with the washington post saying he entered in a wheelchair and had the walker but set them aside to stand and receive his medal of honor. also noted in the boston 25 news wrap up. this from the canadian forces in the united states saying, korea 1950 after a frigid sleepless night he went out in the open to draw chinese fire and expose the positions three times. seriously wounded and counterattacks, he orders his troops to withdraw without him. he always puts them first. we see you, colonel ralph puckett. that was from the canadian armed forces. dr. your phone calls with a few minutes left -- back to your phone calls with a few minutes left here.

this is milton in baltimore, maryland. caller: good morning. host: good morning. caller: i was stationed from 1978 until 1980. there was no conflict on our end but it was maybe two or three years after the attack on the dmz over the appletree in which the americans had to cut down the apple tree because it was obstructing the dmz. the north koreans came out and a fight ensued and several g.i.s were killed. i don't even know if i can say it but my job during that time was to be stationed on the dmz and to watch the north koreans, watch every move they made. but before i could receive that assignment, those orders, i had

to be de-trained. i would love to hear some of the veterans talk about this. no one seems to talk about it but during my training i realized there were a lot of underground tunnels. a lot of those mountains have embedded in them artillery and tunnels. i would love to hear the veterans talk about that because we were allowed to explore some of the tunnels and there would be inscribed in the walls the g.i.s would write, i was here in 1958 or love my wife. i would love to hear some of the veterans talk about that.

what their opinion was about the tunnels and how even today the rock soldiers, rok, are still embedded in tunnels. the korean soldiers were all around us. host: 70 years and 11 months since the start of the korean war. you would've been there for the 30th anniversary for the start of the korean war. do you think the memory of that war has changed from 1980 when you are there to 2021? caller: let me tell you like this, this is the first i have heard of anything going on with memory of the korean war. no, i have never even heard of it. not even when i was there. i am glad it happened.

this is the first time i have heard of this. like i said, i don't know if i'm allowed to talk about what i did when i was there because my life expectancy when i was there was five hours. they said of conflict broke out, we were not expected to live more than five hours. we were on the dmz to watch them. they went out and smoked a cigarette, we had to watch them. host: thank you for the call from baltimore, maryland. thank you for your memories from the 1970's and 1980's. milton serving on the dmz. the u.s. today with about 28,000 u.s. troops in south korea. it fluctuates up and down. this is the usa today story talking about it. it can top off at 33,000 troops

but can go down to is much as 27,000 when it comes to various exercises and things that are happening in korea. the usa today story also looking at the numbers of u.s. troops in other countries around the world. we will show you that map as we hear from ron in wilmington, north carolina. caller: good morning. how are you? this is a very interesting story and the coverage is excellent, so thank you very much for doing that. what i would like to talk about is yes, the korean war is forgotten, but what is not known as the connection between korea and vietnam. that connection is pretty clear to me. i am a vietnam veteran but if you look at the facts, the facts are that communism was on the other side of the fence.

democracy and the united states was on this side along with korea. ho chi minh had been in china. shan kai-shek had been run out of the mainland over what is mostly taiwan. the connection in history, i don't think that has been explored very much but there is certainly a connection. another connection is with the catholic church. the catholic church with pope pius xii was encouraging the united states through cardinal spellman in the u.s. who is connected to the kennedy family, so there was a catholic influence in terms of vietnam.

i think that influence was also present in korea. at least the christian part of it. i'm not so sure about the catholic part but there was a connection with korea in terms of what we were trying to do worldwide. the connection between korea and vietnam, to me, vietnam was an extension of korea. we don't really know that very well. we don't know that connection but the same people were involved and certainly the ideology behind in thinking the united states had to stop communism. we looked at it in the red scare as part of a monolithic type of ideology. of course that is incorrect looking back at it. communism is not monolithic. it is quite multipolar, but the

connection with communism and fighting communism coming out of world war ii into korea, then into vietnam, i don't think that connection exists today. host: that was ron in north carolina. connie is next in chicago, family member. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i was motivated to call by one of your callers from california when he spoke about how the united states military at that time had been on the verge of being defeated. i am calling because my husband is a korean war veteran. although he served stateside rather. i still had to call because i had done some research for him

and it covered the three generations, three wars, and how african-americans fared during the korean war conflict. this research piece was authored by a person by the name of dr. helen k. black out of the university of maryland. she talked about world war ii, the korean war conflict together with the vietnam war, and she talked about how african americans really suffered in a segregated military during the korean conflict and prior thereto. she pointed out how black g.i.s decided to join the military to try to better their plot here at

home and go and fight for rights for others only to return back to america and just be denigrated. she points out that during the conflict, the korean conflict, that the united states soldiers were about to be defeated as your earlier caller said and they sent the african-american soldiers over there to counter those chinese soldiers. that's how that conflict was resolved, by the aid of african-american soldiers, and they never talk about that. host: you got to talk about that with your husband? what did he have to say about the topic? caller: my husband had an injury

during boot camp in 1952. he served from 1952 to 1954 and we have an ongoing pending litigation right now. hello? host: i'm listening, connie. caller: i'm sorry. in any event, this piece on the three generations and three wars is very comprehensive, very interesting, and very factual because it gives actual african-american narratives and it also points out that president truman signed an executive order, 9981, desegregating the army and it was so controversial that the secretary of the army refused to desegregate at the orders of the president and he was forced to

resign. host: thank you for bringing up that research you found. always interesting to hear what folks are reading about on these topics we are talking about. lloyd is in st. paul, north carolina, family member of a veteran. good morning, you are next. caller: good morning. thank you for having me. i want to represent my father, james e. jackson junior. he served 1950 to 1953, six bronze stars. four brothers altogether in the military and the korean war. i am just so proud and honored of all these veterans. i am a veteran myself and my dad was an mp. he experienced a lot of ugliness with kids, women.

like i said he guarded the field pows. the stories my father has shared our very devastating but on the 8th of june he will be 89 years old and i'm blessed to have them still here in the land of the living because his other three brothers are gone. i want to thank all those veterans that sacrificed their lives for us, for our cause. today they don't understand why they were there. thank you. host: thank you. thank you to your father and you. gladys is our last caller from california, family member of a korean war veteran. go ahead. caller: hi. it was in the 1970's when my uncle john came over with my

aunt and said, well, i have something to tell you. i couldn't talk about it for 15 years. what is it uncle john? he said i translated the invasion for general macarthur. i said, wow. that's history. about three years ago he passed away and i came across his records, army records. he was with the mis, which is a military intelligence service in fort snelling, minnesota. after he finished his army duties they asked for volunteers to work for general macarthur at the daichi building in tokyo. he was assigned to a job and

that was the plan to invade. host: amazing story. we don't have much time left but did you ever talk to him afterward and the issue we keep coming back to, that the korean war is sometimes called the forgotten war? did he have any thoughts on that? caller: anyway, i came across a commendation from president truman. it was top-secret for two years and i said that's a long time but he said, that's with the military does. the reason it was delayed was due to the japanese current. you had to calculate very closely otherwise your troops, your equipment would be stranded and you have to pull it out and all the resources or the plan would not survive.

host: thank you for sharing your uncle's story. thanks to all that shared their stories and their family member's stories in this segment. more to come this morning. up next, we change topics. a conversation on critical race theory and when and how it is taught in schools. we will be joined by bryn mawr college assistant professor chanelle wilson and american enterprise institute fellow ian rowe. later the wilson center russia expert william pomeranz will join us for discussion on u.s.-russia relations. stick around. we will be right back. ♪ >> monday night on "the communicators," we're talking about cancel culture with telecommunications analyst randolph may and will ryne hart. >> my concern here is that there's too much speech that we all should agree is within the

realm of legitimate public debate that is stifled or cancelled. >> the cancel culture is a term that's used in a whole bunch of range of different concerns, but i typically narrow it to questions of as much as randy had said, you know, shame, ass radio significance and probably more spefbling i'm really concerned about those areas where people are fired for their positions. >> watch "the communicators" with randolph may and will rhinehart monday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span2. >> exploring the people and events that tell the american story every weekend. today at 6:00 p.m. eastern on american artifacts, explore the sha memorial at the national gallery of art dedicated to robert gold shaw and the 54th massachusetts volunteer

infantry, one of the world's first african-american units. and tonight, a look at the museum and how the complex has entered a new phase since the death of the 41st president and his wife, barbara. exploring the american story, watch american history tv today on c-span3. >> "washington journal" continues. host: this sunday morning, a zoom roundtable discussion on the issue of critical race theory, and our guests this morning, ian roe, resident fellow at the american enterprise institute, and chanelle wilson, assistant professor and director at bryn mawr college. good morning to you both. guest: good morning. >> guest: good morning. host: chanelle wilson, let's start with a basic definition of critical race three sandri how long this theory has been around. guest: critical race theory has been around for a while.

since about the 1960's, that specific language, and it comes out of legal studies, and some of the tenets of critical race theory are that we can and we should look at racism as normal in the united states and not average. it points to property issues and property rights, whiteness being one of those things which hopefully we'll get into, and also looking at the way that the narrative or counter stories can and should be used to combat racist norms, racist ideologies in all types of fields. over time it's been adopted into all types of disciplines. for me, in education, one of my favorites is 1996 toward a critical race theory of education as a title of the article. you can google scholar, and it's available in quite a few

places. but what that article does and what critical race theory does in education is helps us to understand some of the -- many of the inequities that exist and ways to combat them. and the way that i think of critical race theory and why it matters to education is that it gives us a zpool a frame work to better understand what exists, but also ways to analyze current situations in order to create a better and more just future. host: on critical race three any education, ian roe, nearly a dozen states are looking to ban the teaching of critical race theory in schools. why is this controversial? guest: first of all, thank you very much for having me on. i am a resident fellow at the american enterprise institute, but for the purposes of this conversation, i'm coming from the perspective of a practitioner. for the last decade, i ran a network in the heart of the south bronx, almost exclusively low-income kids, almost

exclusively black and hispanic kids, more than 2,000 students, more than 5,000 on the wait list, so very much come from this not looking at critical race theory just as a theory, but actually how it plays out in schools. and you're right, a number of states are going after it, and in preparation for this conversation, i decided to just look at some data, because i'm hoping dr. wilson and i have some common ground here, but one thing i think certainly probably agree on is critical race theory insists that we look at america through the prism of racial oppression, white supremacy, white dominance, but just looking at cat, if you look at the national assessment for educational progress, which is often referred to as the nation's report card, the most recent was given in 2019, and the test is in sandarts reading and math, and the test is always given at the fourth

grade, eighth grade and 12th grade n. 2019, only a little over a third of all students in the country scored proficient in reading. and when broken down by race, forty grade, eighth grade, and 12th grade alone in 2019, there were 3.75 million, or nearly four million white students who could not read at a pro if she a level, and there were 1.4 million black students who could not white at proficiency levels. and yet there are more white students in the population overall, but the number of white students not reading at proficiency in reading dwarfs that of black students not reading. so critical race theory posits that any racial disparity must be skewed as systemic racism is unlikely that systemic racism is the reason that nearly four million students in fourth grade, white students in fourth grade, eighth grade and 12th grade are not reading at level.

i think what we have to realize is that our country is in the midst of a decades-long literacy crisis. and they're both due to in school and out of school factions, the lack of content for each curriculum, increasing instability in family structure, lack of access in choice to high-quality schools, lack of teachers that are able to effectively teach reading. my concern is critical race theory is becoming a massive distraction to what the core issue is for kids of all races. and i think leaders are trying to stop the spread of critical race theory, which i can talk about in more detail. but we really have to hone in on the fact that only a third of all of our kids, a massive number of white kids that are not -- that dwarf the number of kids, and you got to focus on literacy as the foundational building block that leads to everything else. host: as we spend this hour

talking about it in more detail, as you were saying, we want to bring in our viewers as well. let me give out the phone lines. parents and students, if you want to join this conversation about critical race three sandri teaching critical race theory in schools, 202-748-8000 is the number. educators, 202-748-8001. all others, 202-748-8002. that's how wee broken up our lines in this segment of the "washington journal." chanelle will son, i get the sense you wanted to respond to that, so go ahead. guest: thank you. that i think critical race theory actually can help us to better understand why there are -- why white children aren't able to read just in the same -- the way that this test is assessed, the same way black students are not. because critical race theory helps us to pinpoint race, but

it also, in the ways that i understand it and in the ways that it's enacted in education, so if you think of a different article toward a critical race curriculum, it helps us to look at interlocking systems of oppression. they create inequities for many students. and critical race theory helps us to understand that the ways that the united states education system was created was for rich white men. and, of course, that's not the only population that it serves. so if we're thinking about the founding of this institution of education, critical race theory helps us to look at sandrace then to look beyond race, including all of those other ways that poverty or homelessness or food insecurity , lack of access to quality healthcare, all of those things are working together in the ways that education is happening, but people will just look to schools or they will look to teachers or they will

look to standardized tests. and critical race theory doesn't want us to believe look at race, but it doesn't want us to discount race. so in a normalized conversation, people will talk about all of the inequities that exist, but they won't speak about race, because it is something that people in this country maybe oftentimes don't feel comfortable doing. and so critical race theory wants us to think about everything else and to make sure that race is at play as well. so then if we're thinking about that, if we're thinking about race being at play, we then also have to look at the teaching population. we have to look at the student population that exists, and as a teacher, educator, and former k-12 practitioner, i have to look at teacher education programs and the way that we are serving student teachers who will be going out into the field to be in-service teachers. so critical race theory helps us to understand all of those things, recognizing that race matters in addition to other factors of inequity and

interlocking systems oppression, because students don't just come as black or white students or latinx students. they come with everything else, and everything that is happening inside the school building is a result of social inwet quits that are outside, and they just converge in this space. as educators or as people we just expect that the education system is a level playing field or a common ground and that meritocracy will rule and that because a student has access, the outcomes will be favorable, and that's clearly not true. host: we have plenty of callers already for you both this morning on this topic. let me just ask a basic question that was in the news recently. i want you both to answer it, so i'll give you both time to do it. is america a racist country? dr. wilson, do you want to start? guest: south america based in racist ideals.

in the ways that this country was founded on unseeded land, european colonizers came. there were thousands -- there were millions of people here already. those people were relegated to the term savages. so thinking about human beings who are then termed to be subhuman, based not in the language of race as of yet, but it came soon after as a justification for inequity and for oppression and genocide and barbarism, i would say that america is a racist country in its founding and in its ideals, and i think that recognizing that that's how this country began can help us to move beyond it, but if we refuse to recognize that, if we refuse to pay attention or if we want to whitewash it in a way that makes some people feel more

comfortable, then we won't be able to get very far. host: mr. roe? guest: america certainly has a history of racial discrimination, but its founding ideals, declaration of independence, the constitution, all of those together have been the tools to elevate millions of people of all races, gender from persecution and prosperity. agree with dr. wilson in the sense that race matters, but one of the issues with critical race theory is that it posit that is any racial disparity that we see must be used -- due to systemic racism. it sucks the oxygen out of any other explanation. so again, just looking at the national assessment of education prorks since 1992, there has never been a situation and every two years, every two years, less than half of the nation's white students in fourth, eighth, and 12th

grade scored proficient in reading. said another way, there has never been a case in which a majority of white students are reading at a proficiency. so the seed air snow choosing racial equity or closing the agreement gap, would simply mean that black student outcomes from move from sub mediocrity and full mediocrity. and again, it ignores the fact that all of our kids, only a third of all students in our country are reading at grade level. to focus on racial equity that closes out the ability to understand all of the factors. so it's not just about race. race is part of the conversation, but there's certainly more dominant factors that are driving why we have so many kids not age to read at grade level, which then becomes the basis of all the social issues that we are concerned about down the road.

host: dr. wilson, i want to you jump in on this as well, to bring it down from three troy practice. sometimes examples can be helpful here. explain what the 1619 project was and how it fits into this conversation. guest: you want me to do that? host: yes, ma'am. guest: ok, and just thinking about the 1619 project, and i'll relate it to what i'd like to say in response to what mr. roe just said. thinking about the fact that there are students -- we say all races tharnt achieving this particular level of achievement, i have issue with standardized tests. we don't have to get into that today. that's just one piece. but looking at this that keeps coming up, that white students aren't able to read in this way they're being assessed as well. if we're thinking about race, race matters for the ways that schools are funded t. matters for who teaches in schools. it matters for the services that are offered. so thinking about this idea, at cheevement gap, this achievement gap, who sets the benchmark? who sets that marker? but also, the achievement gap

isn't quite -- it doesn't help us to see what opportunities were not met. and so i frame it now more as an opportunity gap. so what on a stemslelve failing students? how is education not doing what it needs to do, rather than looking at students as a people who want blame for not achieving a particular level of success? and so thinking about the 1619 project, it is a project that helped to uncover, ignore history, and ones that are not taught in schools because they are uncomfortable. and so in my experience, as a black woman who came to a traditional teacher education program, four years, then went into the classroom, then did graduate work beyond that, when i came out of that program, i didn't know what this was. i'm older, but not that old t. wasn't that long ago. so in the ways that we think

about the 1619 project and what isn't taught, when i was younger, i was raised by a woman who wasn't educated. my mother has a doctor's degree from temple university. she also helped my sisters and i, raised us to be very proud who have we were. so the things that i was not getting from a traditional public school, those are being supplemented in my home. there are quite a few students, there are millions of students whose parents maybe don't have the wherewithal, the knowledge and/or the skills to do that work. so the 1619 project helps to see the ways that race matters for the founding of the country, but it is also a project to illuminate things that a lot of people just don't know about and would not even think to research on their own, wouldn't know where to begin. and so putting those ideas together and making it something that is accessible to the public and something that is documented as such a crucial time in american history, i see as a necessary work for really confronting truth. in the ways that education

systems in the united states oftentimes cherry pick and move around what actually happens and goes along with information that feeds white comfort. it is not comfortable to talk about racism. it is not comfortable to talk about genocide. and so because people who are white have been in power in this country and its founding in the way that we recognize it in this barbaric way of bringing civilization to another place, because marginalized people have not been in power, they have not been able to share those stories widely. now, is this information that's shared between communities, between groups? yes. but does it need to be something that everyone comes to terms with and everyone reckons with? absolutely. the 1619 project is one of the ways of doing that. host: before we get to callers, why did the 1619 project become such a focus of concern and

controversy, especially on the right? guest: i think one thing the 1619 project did reveal is that there's a strong interest in more information about the african-american experience in the united states. the problem with the 1619 project is it's been widely discredited, so saying that the year 1619 is the true founding of the country, the country is not a democracy, the founding ideals when they were written, they also claim the american revolution was fought to preserve slavery. so all of these items have been debunked. the last thing many kids, particularly the schools that i leave, want to hear is that the country is determined for their disruption. they have to have an aspiration that they live in a good, flawed, but still great country where the founding ideals have been embraced by millions of black people to move from

persecution to prosperity. it's why i joined a group of black scholars called 1776 unite, and we determined not just to criticize the 1619 curriculum, but to tell a more complete history of the african-american experience in the united states. so, for example, the 1619 project doesn't include any mention of something called the rosen wall schools. they're one of the most incredible examples of black civilians in the face of unimaginable ad virts during the jim crow era where booker t. washington partnered with julius, the c.e.o. of serious roe buck and booker t. washington had a vision for black excellence, and even though black kids were not able to get access to a high quality education, he said, too bad, we're going to build schools, and they built nearly 5,000

schools throughout the south. and over a 34-year period, inable achievement of black teemps, black prince pass, focused on black students, incredible successes. ironically, it's the brown versus board of education decision that said that separate must mean inferior that led to the demise of the rosen wall schools. but that's an amazing story that young kids of all races should understand. it's the embrace of a country's founding principle that is we do need to grapple with, but do it in such a way that tells an honest, complete story, warts and all, of how our country has continued to move to this idea of a more perfect yufpblete host: amy has been waiting for about 20 minutes here,

brooklyn, new york, an educator. amy, go ahead. caller: hi, i'm from queens. very interesting. i worked in east harlem for nearly 40 years. i'm a white teacher. i teach scomblack hispanic students. i see points from bovet you that are very good. i work very, very hard to give my students literacy. i take children who are not reading and i teach them how to read. i give them the basic building blocks so we can build that up. i also agree with ms. wilson that those tests are often very slanted and shouldn't be the final way of when we're determining children are literate or not. i really have seen history, my father was a history teacher, and he actually developed the first african-american history course in his school in the 1960's. so i've always tried to give my kids multiple perspectives. i see the kids now to get

little pieces of history, so they'll do something on the holocaust or they'll do something on slavery, but we want to try to make connections with them and give them a context for them to put things in. and as a teacher, i also go and i take trips, like i was at booker t. washington's birthplace a couple of months sandag reading about what you said. we were at harriet tubman center. i tried to really show all the students that each of these people, all of our history, like you said, no person is perfect or good, and that we have a really multiple perspective of our country. but to give them the hope that they can go on and they can continue to improve and make the -- the world a better place. tin sounds corny, but that's what i've been doing all my life. i think we've had success. host: thanks for being a teacher. thanks for what you do in queens, new york. chanelle wilson, i'll let you start. guest: thinking about this idea of hope.

hope is absolutely necessary. think back to what mr. roe said, radical show one of the only things that's gotten african-americans to where we are. constantly and consistently in this country, along with other groups, african-americans have fought to make the united states what it is. the amount of resistance that we have faced for 400 years is a testament to that. but in thinking about hope and where we are with our children, particularly black and brown children who are living within the orchestration of poverty and urban cities that are underfunded with less access to resources, the serkts all the typical characteristics of urban schools, hope is not enough. hope is not enough, but everyone has it. which is why they continue to show up to educational spaces,

hoping that something different may happen, hoping that a different outcome will be theirs, hoping that they can do and make it better. so thinking about hope, hope has to come with real information. it has to come with recognizing why systems exist the way that they do. when i first learned about critical race theory, and i had been kind of studying race since i was a child and not necessarily in scholarly ways, but experiential ways. for me it was more than a light bulb moment, it changed my life, because it gave me language to describe the things that i couldie and that i was experiencing. and because i had the language to do that, i could then develop a strategy for how to do something different. so with information and hope, then i have strategy. i have action. i can say my school is underfunded because of property taxes. my school is underfunded because of white people leave, resources leave with them. when they come back, republican sources come back, but schools

are not made better. i can say that my school has one guidance counselor for 400 students as a result of this policy, rather than some people turn it around and make it seem that the school failure are students' fault. because if we're not careful to look at origins and systems that perpetuate inquebec wit, then unspoken mess is is that it's the students' fault, it is the neighborhood's fault, and that's not true. there are things that are bigger than us that are at play, and students need to understand all of that, because then they can do something about it in a way that probably will be wider scale and more actionable than just hoping for something different. host: mr. roe, the teacher from queens. guest: thank you to the teacher from queens. sounds like great, fantastic work. i agree with dr. will son. hope is not enough. district eight in the south bronx where i lead schools, only 2% of kids that started

ninth grade in 2015, four years later, graduated from high school ready for college, meaning that they started high school and either dropped out or they actually did earn their high school diploma, but still require remediation in reading or math, if they even went to community college, right? so 98% did not graduate ready for college. and this is a district that if you were to -- if you have an idea to launch a new school, to create opportunities for low-income kids in this district, you couldn't. that is a real systemic barrier. it is a real structural barrier. i school i led, we have more than 2,000 students, but 5,000 on the wait list. 5,000 on the wait list. how can we expect kids to achieve when you do have that kind of structural barrier? so there are real policy issues here that we have to go after to ensthure kids and families

even have the opportunity to be able to choose a great school, middle, my kids, middle class, upper class families have school choice up and down. they can go to private school. they can move to the suburbs. they can go to great neighborhoods where they have access to fantastic schools. but somehow we said you are sentenced to go to the school in your neighborhood that only 2% are coming out. that is an injustice. that is a structural barrier that we have to focus on. again, critical race theory says everything is about systemic racism. this is a financed mental issue about school choice and giving low-income kids of all races the opportunity to get on the first rung, which is to have a high-quality education. host: this is my snell los angeles, good morning. caller: good morning. this is a fabulous conversation. i'm glad you guys are having it. mr. roe, you say that racial

disparity, if the difference in literacy is not due to racial disparity. did i understand you correctly? guest: i think it's one factor. i think one of the issues with critical race theory is that it posits that any racial disparity must be 100% due systemic racism. in my view, what that led to is a series of interventions, because you only believe in causality, meaning there's only one cause of a structural disparity. then that also leads you to create mono solutions. for example, in new york state, in terms of teacher preparation, there was an example that all teachers had to complete just to demonstrate basic literacy in reading and writing.

it led to what some people deemed inadequate race. they got rid of the test. they got rid of the test. for ensuring that teachers could demonstrate basic literacy. and i will concur that tests aren't everything, but when we start to have this view that racism is the sole factor in all of these disparities, it sucks the energy out of the room of understanding the complex factors for what drives its success. host: i think michelle had a follow-up. michelle, do you want to finish your question? caller: i just finished reading heather mcgee's book "the sum of us," and she addresses this, where she's talking about the fact that when there is low white literacy, it's usually an area that is highly segregated and it's usually also an area where corporatists have

fashioned the education system to keep even white workers at a low literacy, so they have unskilled labor. so i think i have to agree with ms. wilson that the economics of it doesn't just affect black people, but it started with black people, excluding them economically and socially, and then it also filters over into practices that corporatists can use as well. host: mr. roe, do you want to respond? guest: if we could come to an agreement that the issues is more common than the focus on racial disparity between immediate miker outcomes of all groups, then i think we actually made progress in this discussion, because scommecks certainly part of the issue, family structure, you see an explosion in nonmarital birth

rates in the white community. in 2019 for women 24 and under in the white community who had a child, 61% of those kids were born outside of marriage in the white community. that doesn't mean that's a guarantee of negative outcomes for a child, but the data is overwhelming that if you look at correlations, poor economic outcomes, poor educational outcomes, these are issues that affect kids of all races. my plea to everyone is to let's agree to look beyond just race as the sole factor that is driving these negative outcomes for kids of all ages. host: a half-hour into our discussion this morning, a zoom roundtable on critical race theory. our guests, ian rowe of the american enterprise institute, and chanelle wilson of bryn mawr college, assistant professor of education in african astudies director, and ms. will son, i'll give you the next call.

ricky in michigan is on the line. good morning. caller: good morning. guest: good morning. caller: my question is to both of you. tin starts at home, education, but i thought the slaves even broke away to read by candlelight to understand. literacy is one big thing, yes, but what are you reading about? the american history has never been about a complete history. if native americans. asian americans. it starts in the heart. you can do all the theories and all the talk they want, but it starts in the heart. now, as a black man, i live in a society that is really kind of different. it's a religious kind of society. but it's different kind of people from all over the world. i have people come in my house

of different races. all people. and when they sit down, they talk about their children. yeah, we're going to teach them thousand read and write, but what are they learning to read and write? for american history, it's not complete, then your children are going to be ignorant. host: ms. wilson? guest: thank you for. that i appreciate thinking about literacy beyond just being able to read and write or process words on a piece of paper. another one of think favorite text is a letter to north american teachers, and i'm sure he's not the only person who said it, but he talked about literacy as not just being able to read and write, but being able to read the world and being conscious of what's happening in the world. so thinking about what our students are reading, it absolutely matters. and what they're offered in these traditional educational spaces. so i talked a bit about my mom

in the way that i was, the way that my public education was supplemented and then sometimes i was home schooled, and i loved it. my sister really didn't. but i had the opportunity at that time to really think about being critical. i was raised to always question. i was not allowed to question my mom. but i was raised to question things. i was not raised to question anything at face value. i was supposed to ask questions. i was supposed to critique and leave the world a better place than where i found it. and so in thinking about what we are offering to students and how the american history and the way that it's taught in schools has never been complete, we have to do, we have to go beyond that, and race absolutely matters for all of those things. the educational system in the united states is used to uphold white supremacy. and the way that looks specifically is looking at what the curriculum teaches. the curriculum teaches that christopher columbus discovered something where there were already people. as a child, you're like, wait.

how are you discovering something but there were people there? at early ages, we're beginning to indoctrinate them with these ideologies that don't line up, that don't make sense, and then we wonder why aren't students graduating. what are we offering them? what are we welcoming them into if we're welcoming them at all? how are we helping them to better understand the world? when students say why does this matter, it's a real question for them, and oftentimes as educators, i remember when i was teaching, i would say it matters because it matters. and that wasn't enough. and at that point, i didn't have the language to be able to explain to them why things matter. i know now. so now i teach my future educators what to say, how to respond, but in education systems, we have to do better. and then thinking about not just focusing on race, critical race theory does not want us just to focus on race t. wants us to focus on race as an element of a problem, but looking at other interlocking

systems of oppression. race and racism is not something that just harms black people it's not something that just harms minorityized people t. harms white people as well. the more that we can see race as everyone's problem and not just a problem of a minority and a numeric minority doesn't mean people should face discrimination, but it doesn't mean that we should just look at those people and that's their problem. race is everyone's problem. race has created the capacity for even white students not to be able to perform on these tests in particular ways. race has created the capacity for this country to, in 2021, still be electing people of color as the first time in particular positions. that doesn't make any sense for the way that life should be operating, and race is not a scientific construct. and that is something that critical race theory helps us to understand as well. race is socially constructed t.

is something that people made up. and so if it is something that people made up, it is something that we can deconstruct, but we can only do that if we are willing to talk about it, no matter how uncomfortable. i love talking about race, but we have to talk about it, otherwise we will be exactly where we were in particular ways regarding the subjugation of people's lives 100, 200 years ago. host: some mid-show grading from michael on twitter saying please bring back mr. row and he ms. wilson regularly on this topic. a twitter question from libby saying, do either of you agree that teachers are more segregated than students? &less qualified and inspiring teachers end up in low-income, predominantly black stools? mr. rowe? guest: wow. in the schools i lead, we have fantastic teemps of all races who are determined to do great

things for kids. so i would reject that idea. and in terms of history. it is so important, our young people of all races have an expansive view of american history, and in particular, the african-american experience in the united states. 1776 unite is a group that i'm part of that we decided to create a curriculum that tells unbelievable stories of slavery, plus the stories of resilience. so stories about people that you likely haven't heard of. a person was born a scomplave died a millionaire and a philanthropist. how did she do that? what were the steps she took in her life? orie lyle amccoirk the soften runaway slaves who ultimately became an engineer and developed products that were so unique and effective in the train industry that knockoffs

were created. so when engineers went to buy his product and they were given knockoffs, they said no, no, no, i want the real mccoy. most people don't know that's where that trade comes from. so yes, our kids need a complete history. the beautiful thing is since we announced this curriculum, we've had more than 11,000 downloads in all 50 states by teachers, home schoolers, pastors, folks in prison ministries who are yearning, yearning for content that the other caller said, what are kids reading? we agree. let's tell the complete story, scombarts all, the stories of atrocities, the stories of resilience and bravery and courage. that is inspiration for all americans to see what is possible in this in a country that has been flawed, is flawed. but you have the power to become an agent of your own uplift, and we can do that with

a really rich content-rich curriculum. we'll see kids of all races rising in terms of their possibilities and achievement in their lives. host: 1776unite.com is the website for the project that mr. rowe is involved with and was just talking about. and shawn is in california on the line for parents and students. caller: good morning, everyone, and how's everyone doing this morning? i am so happy to hear this topic. i have a c-span listener. i grew up in compton. i went to compton high school. race was really taught a lot to us in school. we talked about it a lot. we learned a lot about our history. and we all knew that christopher columbus didn't discover america. however, i was a child fwrorn a vietnam -- sorry, and korean war vet. my father retired from serving

in the navy. my mother did not have a high school education. she retired from working for a prison system. and received her high school diploma after she retired. i fought for many years for my he had cafplgtse i have had teachers put me down. i have followed through not being able to obtain higher i had indication, having access to higher education, and i am now holding a master's degree, but i still have the struggle where i see this african-americans need a lot more help with the education system. african-americans need to know about our history. how are you able to have any history, any future without knowing your history, w.e.b. dubois. if we don't start talking about, it how are we able to learn a lesson from it?

host: thanks for sharing your story. ms. wilson, let you start. guest: i'd like to -- you're absolutely right, and i thank you for saying that. one of the things that i'm thinking about in relation to your sharing of story and what mr. rowe just said, teachers are segregated. over 80% of teachers are white. and over 50% of students are students of color. and so it is segregated. and so if we're thinking about how can a person create a better future without knowing their history, we also have to look at who are the administrators, who are the people who create curriculum, and who are the people who are in charge of implementing that curriculum. and as i just sarksde it's 87% of teemps that are white women f. we have an overwhelming majority represented at the front of the classroom, we should move around, and another statistic that 75% of white

people have white groups, so there's very little intermingling of races because of residential segregation and moving on to different ways that people have been separated. so how can we create the expectations that over 80% of white teachers will be able to implement curriculum that is inclusive when it's not something that is handed to them. our students need to know history. they need to know history that they don't know. so when i was teaching, i was teaching my students about japanese internment camps, and the chinese ex-clue -- exclusion act. they thought about themselves. they thought about themselves as black and brown people who were just living in this system

that was always this way, and that is not true. so we have to teach them all history, but we also have to teach them this system and the policies that created those inequities, and we cannot just teach it to black children. we have to teach it to white children as well. and so if we're looking at segregation of schools, schools are more segregated now than even in the 1960's. that's not a result of explicit discrimination. these are now implicit policies that make it so that residential segregation is very real. and so people aren't officially barred, but they're kept out in other ways. predatory lending and job discrimination, all those things. these this things that students of color need to know, and students of color sometimes have more access to information because they have families who will share that, but schools should be teaching white students all history. i appreciate african-american

history and i understand the language of that, but african-american history is american history. and why must we separate it in those ways, and then thinking about the particular stories that we tell students, oftentimes we use these exceptions. people talk about oprah all the time. they talk about other people who were born to less favorable backgrounds who were able to rise inch but those people are exceptions t. doesn't mean that all of us cannot rise to our own levels of success, but we cannot expect that we give students an incomplete that we offered to students, an incomplete history, a hidden curriculum, and then expect that they'll be table achieve. we have to teach them why and how this country operates in the ways that it does, and if they do not know, it will be perpetuated. if people are not reacting against a system, then we are being complicit in it. as an educator, i refuse to. that is what i reject. i will not allow any of my

students to leave my educational program without having some understanding of racism, sexism, andeen phobia, islam phobia, and other ways that discrimination exists. we think that if we just talk about black history every now and then, when we have a heroes and holidays curriculum, that's good enough to teach white children that people of color should be able to operate in human dignity and that it will create the hope necessary for students of color who oftentimes have to experience hundreds of years of marginization that that's enough, it's not enough. and critical race theory is one of the things that can help us to get students to understand something and then actual be able to create strategies and pathways forward. host: a lot of callers for you in a little bit of time. let me take a couple of call others that parents line, and then we'll come back and get your thoughts on it. joseph in compton, california. caller: thank you. yes, i graduated from dominguez

high school in 1981. what i recognized here as a parent and as a student in america is that we are not being taught african-american history correctly. there's no history that has shown, no books that talks about the pyramids down in mexico that are built by africans way before white settlers showed up here. we do not start our history discussing the pyramids. those are down there. even black history, we only define history through the 13 colony discussion. california was never part of the 13 colonies. there was never slavery over here. i define myself as simply an indigenous individual whose family has been here in america , where we cannot mark the time that we showed up here. there is no marking of history showing when my people showed up here.

host: that's joseph in california. this is barry in florida, also on that same line for parents and students as well. barry, go ahead. caller: yeah, i'm coming from a perspective, i was raised in new york and queens. jamaica high school. can you hear he? host: yes, sir, bare. caller: ok, i'm sorry. i'm coming from three different aspects, as a parents student, and a teacher. i was raise and had brought up in queens, new york, jamaica high school, springfield high school. you my son went to school down near tampa, florida, and i naught stoofment pete as a teacher. from my perspective, when i was growing up, we had a class of about 45 students, which was normal. students need one-on-one

teaching. that's the first point. second point is a lot of teachers, majority of the teachers were white who were going through the motions, which was whoever wants to learn, teach, and the ones that had difficult times, get thrown by the wayside. then you have to bring the cultural aspect of you can't teach a person unless you can relate to their social and economic status to where what's going on with their life. host: you bring up a couple of points. mr. rowe, let you respond to those. guest: a couple of thifpblgts the point about segregated schools, again, the schools i lead in the heart of the south bronx, they are virtually 100% scomblack hispanic kids, almost exclusively low income. we're not waiting for white kids to suddenly show up. but now it's going to be a better school, right? the idea that a school was

separated and kids of a certain color doesn't diminish the expectation of excellence for every kid, teaching them full history, african-american history, and more broadly, but this idea that it's segregation alone, we have high expectations. if i have a 22-year-old mom who wants to have her 5-year-old go to a great kindergarten, she doesn't have time to wait for changes. she needs to a great school now, and if that school is 100% scomblack hispanic, who cares? because the expectation has to be excellence, excellence, excellence. certainly getting a more racially diverse teaching course, these things are really important. but the most important thing is that they can teach, and i've heard amazing black teachers, mazing white teachers, and

unfortunately i have to let go, not great white teachers and not great black teachers because they're all individual. there isn't this inherent advantage or disadvantage simply because of skin color. and so we need every teacher, regardless of race, to be exceptional in their expectations and exception natural their instructional practice. host: this is david on the line for educators, new jersey, good morning. guest: yes, i just wanted to say that professor wilson, if i listen to her, i will be afraid to come up from under my bed. this is just nonsense. i wonder if she has read any books by thomas soul. one of his big comments was, if black fathers were present in the household, 80% of black poverty would be eliminated overnight. we have to look at ourselves, too.

and it just sands me, because i look at a city like baltimore, and i have one other point after this point. the mayor is black. the police chief is black. the fire department head is black. the board of education president is black. the superintendent is black. and yet they have some of the most abyss natural test scores in the country, as well as chicago. host: ms. will son, give you a chance to respond. guest: i appreciate the recognition that some of the things that i talk about are uncomfortable. but we don't have to be afraid. there's no reason to be afraid. i think that i haven't read the author that you just discussed, but what i think about is that, in my recognition of reality, i always have hope, and i always have joy, and i always know that things are going to be better. and so even in thinking about

just households that do not have a father, i also know there's systemic reasons for why that exists. so i don't look to black men as that particular issue. although everyone has their own, or that black women, that they don't want to be aligned with them i look at the prison industrial complex and the way that that was created to give slavery another name and the way that has more than tripled isn't 1980's. and that people of color, about 28% of the population, but over 50% of the jail population. so there are systemic reasons for why family structures look different, but i don't look to them as the only -- i can't control people's family structures. what i can control is my classroom. what i offer to students, how i create relationships with them beyond and including what is happening at home or what are the social expectations for men of color that they will go to jail, that they will be in

prison. one in four black men will be under state-sanctioned control in some point in their life. that is something i need to know in order to recognize that if i'm a kid, my dad is somewhere where i don't want him to be, but there's a reason for why that is, it's not my fault. it's probably not fully his fault, because black people are not -- do not engage in more criminal behavior than any other person. but if i can understand the basis for that, then i can either navigate that system scombert try to stay outside of it, or i can fight against it. and so i'm thinking -- what i advocate for is looking at what exists with the strategy to create something that is better. host: running short on time. let me take these two callers that have been waiting a while. marie first in from new york, an educator. caller: good morning. i'd like to talk about student-teacher ratio. if i'm a kindergarten teacher, i was one for 30 years, if i

was given 15 children in a k-3 program, you have to go back to the beginning. there's plenty of money. it's on administrative sal riis. what i used to call hall walkers. put them back in the classroom. that's where the student-teacher ratio is so important. and phonics, why johnny can't read. let's get back to basics. publishers, my last 15 years, i must have had four different reading and math series, all looking for a magic bullet to get everyone up to speed. it goes back to student teacher ratios, not the money. you need to have small classrooms. and teacher aides, which they cut all the time, are the best. i had a teacher aide who was fantastic. she worked with the needy students for 10 minutes each day. she took one aside while i was

with the rest of the class. it's not the money. it really comes down to student teacher ratio. host: thanks for the call. linda i want to get in from florida, a parent. thanks for waiting. caller: well, i guess agree with the teacher that just spoke. my question is, is critical race theory more important than reading, writing, math, science? critical race theory, critical thinking skills. all of these things, you know, problem solving, analyzing, all of these things are of little use to someone who cannot read, cannot write, lacks basic math skills, computer literacy, tech literacy in this 21st century. there's six hours in a day. what is the best way to use

that time? if we teach critical race theory, what are not going to teach? something has to come out. host: we'll give you both a chance to respond. mr. rowe, do you want to start? guest: thank you for a great opportunity to have this discussion, and dr. wilson, tone gauge with you. i would encourage readers to read the book of thomas sewell. he has a new biography coming out. black boys, i founded an all boys schools, the only all-boys pre-k through 8 school in the heart of the south bronx. we teach them all the possibilities that exist in their world, plus the challenges that they will likely face, and yet their identity is not oppressed black boys who become part of the criminal system. they identify as chess players.

they identify as young men of great possibilities. a lot of this starts with the language and expectations that parents and faculty have to our children of all races. and i'd encourage parents, you want to learn more about how to get involved in these issues, there are great organizations like fair for all, parents defending education, no left turn, schoolhouse rights, 1776 unite, all of these are organizations that are setting themselves up as allies in your effort to ensure that all of our schools have the highest of expectations for all of our students regardless of race. it's critical human race theory that we're trying to achieve. host: mr. wilson, final seconds here. guest: in response to our last caller, all of the subject or disciplines you discussed are important, and i don't think that critical race theory is being introduced as a way to

replace, but as a frame work to think about how we can create an education system or curriculum that is more inclusive and that helps students to think about the future that they want to create and how they can be an integral part of that. so thinking about expectations and where do we go from here, i encourage people to take up critical race theory, to take up curriculum and some of the texts that i mentioned at the beginning of the call, and i move away from allieship to co-con spin forship. allieship is more about learning and sharing, and sometimes in service level ways. but they're people who are willing to get in and do that work with teachers, with communities, and so there are some people that are retired, who have more time, and might be able to volunteer at a school to create that better ratio of student to teacher, or who can go in and offer if we had been co-conspirators,

we are thinking of ways to involve ourselves. to reject inequity and do whatever it takes to adjust way people operate in their dignity. i am excited for the opportunity to be here with people and excited about where we will all go. host: we would love to have you together again down the road on this program. thank you so much for your time this morning. >> thank you. host:, we turn to foreign policy and a conversation about policies. stick around. we will talk right after the

break. ♪ >> on sunday, june 6, historian and journalist will be our guest. >> inflicted humiliation upon the most powerful nation. the stairway of which the ending of the 29th of april ascended to a rooftop helicopter, secured the place amid the symbolic images. for me, they were all my generation and the struggle was among the foremost experiences of our careers. i was one who flew out of the embassy on that tumultuous was, terrified day. >>'s book is soon to be

released. other books include catastrophe, 1914, chastised and overlord. join with your phone calls on in-depth, live at noon :00 -- 9:00 eastern. be sure to tune in july 4 for conversations with a professor and a word winning -- award-winning author. >> monday night on the communicators, we are talking about cancel culture. >> my concern here is that it is within the realm of debate that

it is stifled or canceled. >> i typically narrow it to questions of, shame, ostracism and probably more specifically, i am concerned about areas where people are fired for their positions. >> watch the communicators at 8:00 eastern. on c-span two. >> washington journal continues. host: u.s./russia issues is our topic. why were they meeting? what came of this meeting? guest: they were meeting in

iceland because that is where they both were. i think it was a convenient place to have them meeting. in terms of what they were meeting about, i think it was to create a rapport between the foreign secretaries and to basically try to calm the situations in terms of the rhetoric. there has been a lot of heated rhetoric by primarily the russian side. i think that lincoln and -- they have to talk and that was the first opportunity to meet in person. host: would you say that we have a stable and predictable relationship with russia? >> no. there is a laundry list from russia and the u.s. that we had

to work through. we will not reach agreement on all of these issues, but the ability to meet and talk will at least reduce the tensions between the countries. it will lead, hopefully to a meeting. host: what would the two men talk about? guest: i do not know if they would produce stable relations. they will talk about ukraine, the arctic, cybersecurity, climate change, nato -- there is a lot to talk about. they will talk about cyber security and interference in infrastructure. i think there is a long laundry list to go over and i do not think it will be an immediate agreement, but the start of a

dialogue. i think that a dialogue between the two great nuclear powers of the world is a step in the right direction. host: now would be a very good time to call in. the deputy director is with us. go ahead and start calling in. independence as well. let's come back to that laundry list for a second. this is tony blinken and talking about his meeting earlier this week. >> it is no secret that we have our differences. when it comes to those differences, if russia acts

aggressively against us, our partners or our allies, we will respond. president biden has expressed that. not to see the conflict but to defend our interests. having said that, there are many areas where our interests intersect and overlap. we believe that we can build on those interests. combating climate change, dealing with the nuclear programs in iran, north korea and afghanistan. there are many areas of intersecting interest. it is our view that if leaders of russia and u.s. can work together cooperatively, our people, the world can be a safer

and more secure place. host: talking about defending our interest. what is the biggest threat that russia poses to the u.s.? guest: there are various problems between the u.s. and russia. the biggest question is about cyber security and the security of our elections. as the secretary of state mentioned, there is a long list of differences. afghanistan, iran, syria -- they do not have easy solutions. president biden has inherited them all to make a resolution. i think it was important that he did not mention a reset. in many ways, this is similar to a reset.

we will recognize where there are differences and agreed to disagree to a certain extent. in light of changing the environment and other pressing, global issues, the u.s. and russia should at least be talking to each other and not just trading accusations. host: did we know if they were involved in the cyber hack of the pipeline? guest: obviously, russia has denied it. we understand that the people who engaged in the hack were in russia. whether it was a kremlin plot or a security services plot, we have not announced that, but i think there is great certainty that at least the hackers were based in russia. host: explain what the nord stream 2 two pipeline is. guest: it is a pipeline that has

long been under construction. it will allow russia to export gas from russia, directly to germany. it has been very contentious throughout the entire planning of the. the controversy is about nord stream 2 two. norge stream one has already been built. the completion of this pipeline will only increase dependence on russia in germany and in europe for russian gas. evidently, president biden has decided not to sanction the company that is building it. i think that was because he basically could not stop it and in deference to chancellor merkel, who has been a strong

advocate of the pipeline and has insisted that it is for commercial reasons and it is not a security threat. host: who wants him to sanction that company? guest: the republicans have been very boisterous. they want to implement these sanctions against the company building the nord stream 2 two pipeline. there was a strong reaction from the republicans about president biden's decision to halt the pipeline. not only for republicans, but democrats. before the building of the pipelines, gas flowed through the ukraine. ukraine will no longer be a

transmitter of gas to europe. that has caused concern, both financially and in terms of ukraine's future. host: where are we right now when it comes to sanctions against russia? what are we sanctioning them for? what hurts them the most? >> there is a long list of sanctions and they always seem to be growing. there were sanctions on the banking and finance communities and over the past six or seven years, these sanctions have increased. they are primarily on individuals and companies, but the biden administration recently imposed sanctions about the purchase of russian debt. the sanctions list is always

growing. they have now been in effect for six to seven years. i do not think that we are anywhere closer to resolving the questions in the ukraine and crimea. host: philip is up first. good morning. caller: my question is, that you are pretty much a joe biden guy. he gave the green light for the russian line. hunter has gotten so much money out of eastern europe and russia all these years. it looks like joe might be under the influence of the russians. maybe we should be investigating joe biden. host: can you explain what the

wilson center is? guest: the institute is the program within the wilson center, devoted to the space. we host scholars and conduct meetings and basically inform people about what is going on in the eurasia regions. specifically devoted to the space. host: how tough or not tough has the biden administration been when it comes to russia? guest: they have had mixed signals. they have imposed sanctions in light of the dead and in light of other actions by russia. the first event was to the ukraine.

he emphasized the importance of defending the integrity of the ukraine. the second is towards russia, but it is not really, in any way abandoning ukraine. it is trying to find a means of dialogue between russia and the u.s. host: good morning. caller: good morning. recently released documents from the national archives confirm the fact that 99 -- gorbachev was promised that in return for germany reunification, that nato would freeze its pace and would

not travel further 1 inch. nato is up on the russia border and find out that john mccain was lobbying to get -- to join nato. my question for you, can you tell me who the villain is in this piece? guest: i will not say that there is a villain. i think that there was a profound misunderstanding. the question about nato expansion. gorbachev insists that he was promised that nato would not expand to the borders. other members insist. when the opportunity came for the nations to apply to nato,

there was no prohibition and clearly nothing in writing that prohibited the entry into nato. obviously that is in contention for russians, no matter what. talking about expansion to georgia and expansion to the ukraine, i think those are more provocative actions in light of all of the conflicts in georgia and russia, it is unlikely that nato will expand to ukraine or georgia. that is also a problem because ukraine and georgia are adamant that they want to join nato.

they have the right to do so. host: a frosty military campaign, pushing into areas once frozen solid. a story about russia staking claim to the waters of the arctic ocean. why is that important? guest: in light of melting and climate change, there is going to be new opportunities for expansion in the arctic. russia has already been promoting its northern sea route, that will shorten the distance between europe and asia, in terms of shipping. russia has also said that they want to exploit the economic resources of the arctic. that would mean oil and gas

exploration as well. the arctic council is a meeting of the arctic nations that border the arctic. they have been trying to get some sort of rules and regulations that will guide the eventful melting of the arctic ice cap. it has sovereign rights in the arctic. it will do everything to exploit resources host: -- resources. host: good morning. caller: good morning. i have two questions. the 2016 election, they said

that russia was heavily involved in democracy, but kim is unelected. american government sanctions -- but they did not sanction the israeli government. [indiscernible] guest: i am not aware of what the accusations against israel are that you have referred to, but in the 2016 election, there were clear examples of russian interference that prompted a response from the u.s. and sanctions against russia. host: about 30 minutes left.

democrats on line (202) 748-8000 . republicans (202) 748-8001 and independence on line (202) 748-8002. the focus on electing navalny and what happens with his health in prison and what the ramifications could be to the russian government. guest: if navalny dies in prison, it would create increased tensions between the u.s. and russia. the u.s. would respond, in terms of defending u.s. rights. that is a bone of contention between them.

the u.s. and president biden have emphasized that they will return to an emphasis on human rights and defending human rights in russia. obviously, the arrest of navalny , the state of health, the attempt to assassinate him, all of these things produce added tension. it will not help u.s./russian relations. the u.s. will have to respond. a whole slew of opposition figures have been arrested and sentenced to strict jail times. increasingly limited. there is also the foreign agent law.

navalny is just the tip of the iceberg. the most prominent dissident and opposition leader, but he is by no means the only one. there has been an increased number of political prisoners. this will have to be discussed between them. who does -- host: who does this benefit more? guest: it depends. the question it raises is, who makes concessions? who has leverage and who makes concessions? it was interesting that joe biden made the concession on nord stream 2 before the meeting. that was an area of leverage for the u.s. i think, president putin will say, this is a sign of better

relations, but they will still come in with a long list of complaints and problems, just because the u.s. has decided not to sanction the owners of nord stream 2 does not mean that russia does not have a lot of other differences. host: has president biden taken a different approach or tone with russia then vice president biden took or senator biden took back in the day? guest: i do not think so. not yet. he has had a long history of dealing with russia and dealing with u.s. mesh and dealing with u.s. russian relationships. that is why the trip to ukraine was so important because it emphasized that the u.s. is standing by its ally and defending its integrity against

the russians. this was especially important over the last six weeks when the russians conducted exercises in the ukraine and amassed something like the number of 100,000 troops. it is always a threat that something could get out of control and joe biden has familiarity with this part of the world. as was demonstrated in gaza. and israel. he has experience. he knew when to put pressure on the longtime ally. host: america promotes human rights in russia and russia promotes pipeline hacking in america. a democrat. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call.

my question is, it is obvious that we knew that russia was involved. now we know they were involved in 2020. i would like to know, what are we doing to prevent this from happening again in our next election. russia does not have any respect for us asking them and sanctioning them to stay -- stand down. what will he do this time around? guest: obviously, we have to be prepared for these types of actions. we have to have faith in our electoral system and its ability to defend itself. i will not get into the recounts and so forth, but it is the faith and our electoral system and if that is undermined,

president putin is winning. she live -- russia will again try to use -- to hack and use various means to influence our election. it is one of the things that president boot -- president putin has long advocated. he has been very active in the u.n. to put this treaty forward, but the question is, do we want to basically have russia write the rules for the internet, going forward? i do not think that is the case. host: this is mary, an independent. caller: i would like to know, why was trump so pro-russian when there was all these years,

lever not pro-russian? thank you. guest: there are a variety of reasons why he was pro russia but primarily, as a businessman, he wanted to do business with russia. he had a long negotiation, trying to build a hotel in moscow. it may very -- it never came to fruition, but vladimir putin, who does not have to deal with opposition, investigators and so forth, is the type of leader that donald trump wanted to emulate, one that was always in control, able to exercise sovereignty, and did not really have to bow to the opposition. host: about a minute and a half year.

one of our viewers wanted to come back to the arctic -- the control of the arctic, saying that the u.s. navy is building to counter russia. do you have any information on timelines? guest: i do not have that information. the u.s. has to respond. if the u.s. escalates, this is a very fragile part of the world, from an environmental standpoint. to militarize the arctic could potentially lead to other problems. host: always a good, wide-ranging discussion when you come on. it is wilson center.org. inc. you so much for your time. in our final 30 minutes, we will turn back to a domestic policy question.

do you think immigration makes america stronger or weaker? if you say stronger, call% -- (202) 748-8000. if you say weaker, (202) 748-8001. we will be right back. >> go to c-span.org/coronavirus for the response to the coronavirus pandemic. if he missed our coverage, it is easy to find our latest briefings and response. go to c-span.org/coronavirus. >> tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern, jeff bezos and the invention of the global empire, talking about

the growth and evolution of amazon and profiling its founder, jeff bezos. >> the everything store is the portrait of quite the brutal ceo, who is very punishing and sets high standards, lashing out at underlings who do not meet his standards. very steve jobs like management style. there are fewer of those kinds of stories in amazon unbound. maybe we are flashing back. he has a more delicate touch now. >> watch tonight on book tv on c-span two. you can listen afterwards as a podcast.

>> washington journal continues. host: in our last 30 minutes, does immigration make this country stronger or weaker? here is why we are asking that question this morning. it surrounds the release of the census numbers. one of the headlines after that release. the u.s. population grew at its slowest rate since the 1930's. immigration leveling off, the u.s. may be entering an era of lower population growth. some of the conversation surrounding that information, coming out of the census. using it to increase population, does immigration make this

country stronger or weaker? a special set aside for recent immigrants. start calling in and we will get to your calls in just a second. noah smith, his peace after the census numbers came out, specifically focusing on growth. 15 years ago, population growth was one of the advantages over other nations with a fertility rate close the replacement rate, the level necessary for long-term stability. it avoided collapse. add immigration on top of that and our demographic features seemed assured. this vision of dominance seems

to have gone up in smoke. the u.s. population is now growing more slowly than at any time since world war ii. if we do not correct course, we are certain to stagnate inside. one way to help correct the course, increasing immigration. these numbers came out on the census. the average age of the newly arriving immigrants is 31, more than seven years younger than the median american, meaning they can help replace an aging workforce. it encourages economic -- they are more likely to work in health care, construction, agriculture and food processing. they help to stave off population declines and are more likely to settle where foreign populations live, large metro areas.

two stories about this topic. let us know your thoughts. this is plano, texas. go ahead. caller: thank you. i think it makes us weaker. take a look at our country right now. we are in dire straits. if we let in the nice people that you are talking about, that would be great, smart and intelligent, but open borders does not bring that in. take a look at our southern border right now. host: if we phrased it as does legal immigration make the country stronger or weaker, would you answer any differently? caller: i would say legal.

that is a preface to what i said. let the smarter and intelligent ones income of the ones that want to make something of themselves. i know everyone wants to make something of themselves when they get here, but if they bring the same thoughts and ideas -- you cannot bring that into a new country. i just do not agree with letting anybody walk across that border. sorry. host: some of the statistics on immigration. the idea, the difference between legal immigrants. most immigrants come 70% are in here legally while others are unauthorized. some 27% were permanent

residence. 5% were temporary. another 23% were unauthorized immigrants. the unauthorized immigrant population more than tripled in size to a record high in 2007. by 2017, that number had declined by 1.7 million. some numbers from the migration institute. a chart on immigrants in this country, whether it is legal or illegal immigrants. how many have come in over the decades. about 45 million as a share of the u.s. population. legal immigrants and illegal immigrants totaled about 45 million in 2020. you can see how that number has

risen. that is the orange line here. just under 15% consisted of immigrants legal or illegal. you can see how that has dipped. 1860 is when they first had these numbers and estimates. you can see how that number has changed. fred is next out of st. paul, minnesota. go ahead. caller: i'm saying it is weaker, but i am thinking that we are talking about illegal immigration, but it is about immigration in general. i think it is a great discussion and i am glad that you have put this on because i want to learn more about it.

i'm not sure if it makes us weaker or stronger. i do not like illegal immigration. that is what influenced me to call and say that it is weaker. host: if we just said does legal immigration make us stronger or weaker, where would you fall? >> i would say, i am not sure. i just want to hear the discussion and i could be influenced either way, to tell you the truth. this is great that you are doing this. host: appreciate you keeping an open mind. have a great sunday. on the status of immigration in this country, some news just yesterday from washington dc. the biden administration will grant a permanent residency to tens of thousands of migrants

living in the u.s. without legal status. the department of homeland security announced, citing worsening conditions. they will be protected for 18 months and the biden administration could choose to renew the designation. crippling poverty, lack of resources, exacerbated by the pandemic. after careful consideration, we have determined that we must do what we can for the haitian nationals in the u.s. until conditions improve, so they may safely return home. that story coming out yesterday. jack in florida says immigration makes the country stronger. caller: good morning. thank you for letting me voice

my opinion. we are a nation -- our forefathers created us one nation, under god. we were immigrants. that is where we started. it is a divine direct to help each other. it is just that simple. we have to take care of each other. we make americans stronger if we are going to be one nation, under god. that is as far as my opinion goes. there are some other issues about that, but it makes us stronger by doing the will of god. host: that line for recent immigrants, where are you? you are a recent immigrant? caller: canada.

i come from windsor, ontario. host: what are your thoughts? what makes the country stronger? caller: the u.s. and canada are both countries of immigrants. legal immigration is something that the u.s. -- it makes it greater. birthrates alone, we cannot sustain the culture or the economy without it. illegal immigration, from the beginning, the people who come here illegally, the first thing that they are doing is breaking the law, which we are a country of laws. the first thing that they do is they break a law and the other thing that they do, the opportunity now, when they come here as immigrants, they are provided with government

assistance from day one. they cap provide that for themselves. immigration over the past, before the social programs for social immigrants -- people came over that wanted to be american and provided the ability to grow within the system, on their own without government support. it was because they truly wanted to live the american dream. i came to the u.s. for my profession. eight years and i am proud to be an american. i am an engineer. i came here, educated and with

the ability to contribute to society, without asking the americans who have spent their whole life working, to pay for my -- to sustain my livelihood. i live in a very nice town in florida now and it is great weather here. people treat me great and i love being part of america. host: a call from orange park. caller: good morning. i believe legal immigration assists us as a country. i do not believe in illegal immigration. why do we bother have -- having immigration laws, when as a country we take in over one million people a year illegally? host: legal immigration assists

us, as you say, should we expand legal immigration? should it be 1.5 million a year or 2 million? do we want more of it? caller: i think it depends on a lot of different things. whatever the country can bear or except, in order to try to balance our assistantship up. i am first generation. my kids are first generation as well. they both came legally. the kids dad, before he used to have to get a sponsor. that sponsor did not have a family member. the sponsor did have to put up

bonds with the government, that the person that they sponsored could not get any sort of legal trouble, could not accept any kind of aid through the federal government, or they would have to leave the country. host: this idea of possibly expanding immigration numbers being talked about in the wake of the world facing a population plunge, decline. countries are facing population stagnation and a fertility bust. empty homes a common eyesore. they go on to note that some countries like the u.s., australia, canada, where birthrates hover between 1.5 and two have tried to blunt the

impact of this complication -- population decline with immigrants. these numbers, 2018 and 2019 numbers, but they still paint the picture. nearly 45% of immigrants live in just three states. california, texas, and florida. in 2018, most immigrants lived in just 20 metropolitan areas with the largest population in the new york, los angeles and miami area. that chart is showing the metropolitan areas with the largest numbers of immigrants. the fact folder on the issue of

immigration. does immigration make the country stronger or weaker? caller: the way it is going today, it is weaker. if you are legal, that is fine, but if you come here to want to change our country to your culture, that is no good. we should have limits. we need to keep the mix a balance. our government, they are not protecting us. they are trying to get rid of them into our country and that is what this country is doing right now. they are not protecting the border. this is not right.

my mother sponsored an immigrant years and years ago. you had to have a job. that is the way it should be. caller: good morning. i believe this question is a good one. there is no doubt. it is good for us. legal immigration is good. the point i wanted to make is, i think we are forgetting what made the country great. focusing on immigration but creating a place where there was opportunity for everybody and where protection and individual freedoms and liberties were paramount. that is what makes us great.

all of those fit into that overarching theme, but we seem to want to make ourselves great by fixing immigration or doing this or that. we need to remember that the founders of this country, we are trying to make the greatest country in the world. we focused on creating opportunity and protecting individual freedoms. host: we will head across the pond to the u.k. caller: good afternoon. far north of the u.k., i used to work in japan. if you do not get your

population up look at what has happened to japan. with an aging population, they are too old. the country has been going down the drain. it applies to the u.s., if it does not get its population up. i think it would be good. the same thing for britain. we had brexit, which i voted against. host: thank you for the call in this last hour of washington journal. we always appreciate that perspective. you are next. good morning. caller: notwithstanding, a lot of the colors have an undertone

of grounding in america, but immigration is great. it takes a pretty tough person and it could be looked back at our forefathers that come to another land, that they cannot even speak the language. they work hard to keep their families together and they contribute. they take a look at a number of businesses that are opening and homes that are being purchased. all the indications. i cannot see how people are anti-immigrant's when they are contributing so much to the nation. host: here are a few comments from our social media pages on twitter and our text messaging service. most young couples do not want to have babies because they cannot afford a family.

those policies have to be in place. illegal immigration makes us weaker. we are a country of immigrants. of course immigration makes us stronger. we are all immigrants except for native americans. this is dennis in pittsburgh, kansas. where are you a recent immigrant from? caller: i am for legal immigration. i am an immigrant myself. all the immigration that is legal, that can be processed, we have the ability to do that. why we choose not to expand and get a handle on the separation is criminal. it is crazy.

we have the ability. we grow and we thrive. all the ones that i know for the country who are 99% -- i worry that people in our country, they try to make remarks like, you do not have to learn the language and that you can bring your own culture, but that is not really part of the plan. once you are here, you become an american and you join the process. most of us want to do that. i am very pro-immigration. host: pittsburgh, pennsylvania.

-- next call is from pennsylvania. go ahead. caller: i believe it makes the country weaker. a lot of people look at it in a different way than he actually is. president biden talks about those who need to be brought into legal status. nobody begrudge his -- look at the numbers. they have been talking about the 11 million immigrants for 15 years. look around. you see it. they are not paying into the system.

no one begrudge his anyone for coming into the country, but i believe what is going on right now, they are using them as slave labor. if you are not paying minimum wage, they are not going to ask for a raise. that is what is going on and that is what needs to stop. make them legal, give them a social security number and make the businesses -- pay them at least a minimum wage. that will raise everyone's tax base and the economy, all the way around. host: there is a concern that you are making it possible for people to cross the border illegally. caller: what is driving people

to come into the country illegally is the ability to get a job under the table. these companies are supposed to be using it, but they are not using it. look at what happened in georgia with the coke brothers. they had a chicken processing plant that had illegal immigrants working for them. the cook others got off scott free -- scott free. they were not paying them minimum wage. they could have been paying into the social security system. that is on everybody else's back . caller: hello. i have a different perspective on this. if we bring in one million immigrants a year, my question is, how many legal people in the

u.s. die a year? if a million die and we bring in a million, we remain the same amount of people. also, out of these million, once they die, we do not get any revenue from those people. they are gone and out of that one million people have we have -- i don't know how many -- the number of undesirables that have died out of that one million. does that overset the undesirables on the million? that come into this country? host: does immigration make the country stronger or weaker? caller: i believe immigration i think would be the same. eventually the people that we immigrate become citizens and they contribute and they

contribute before they become citizens. most of them have jobs and they pay local taxes and state taxes, what have you. host: that's built in ohio, our last call her on today's washington journal. we we back tomorrow morning. in the meantime have a great sunday. ♪ [washington journal theme plays] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] ♪

[fireworks] ♪ >> tonight on q&a, greg francis on his book "just harvest." >> this depicts the life of black farmers in america and a landmark case that dealt with systemic discrimination by the usda against black farmers that really decimated the population of black farmers, contributed to them leaving the farms as well as losing land, and they found a familiar structure that goes along with being a farmer. >> greg francis