morning on washington journal, washington post opinion writer paul waldmen discusses the presidency and republican party. then frank buckley and "curiosity at its 12 rules for life." join with your calls, facebook comments, texts, and tweets. washington journal is next. ♪ host: good morning it is sunday, may 30. the topic for the first hour is border and immigration policy and how the biden administration is handling things. the homeland security secretary facing tense exchanges at multiple hearings. here is how to take part in the

conversation. we want to hear your thoughts on the handling of the border and immigration issues. if you support the administration, call (202)-748-8000. if you oppose, (202)-748-8001. please tell us why. border state residents also have a number, (202)-748-8002. you can also send a text at (202)-748-8003. please leave your name and city while texting. @c-spanwj is the twitter handle and you can also post on facebook at facebook.com/c-span. with all the homeland security secretary news, biden administration reins in street-level enforcement by ice as officials try to refocus agency mission.

at the detention centers and county jails the administration once filled, the trump administration once filled, thousands of beds now are empty. the immigration and customs enforcement officers president trump lavished with praise have far less to do on the streets of u.s. cities these days under the new biden administration rules curtailing immigration enforcement. ice carried out fewer than 3000 deportations last month, the lowest level on record. 6000 officers currently arrest 1 every two months. it is an agency on probation. the administration rejected calls by some democrats to eliminate the agency beau biden placed deportation officers on a leash so tight some say their work is being functionally abolished. washingtonpost.com is where to get the rest of that.

i want to play some clips for you. sec. mayorkas was asked if there were any consequences for those crossing the border. [video clip] >> one of the priority groups are effectively no longer subject to arrest once they reach the u.s. interior. i have two questions. well, two separate sets of questions. is this true? has president biden already gotten rid of immigration laws? are there no consequences for each equally the border at this point? frankly, it appears president biden's message to one and all is that the u.s. has no limits to whom can come because the administration will not enforce any of its immigration laws.

is that the message this country will not enforce? i will let you respond. >> no it is not in the president could not have been clearer in his articulation of this administration's position nor could i have been cleaver and continue to be -- clearer and continue to be. this administration enforces the united states of america and that is not only the laws of accountability but the humanitarian laws that congress passed many years ago. there are three priority areas specifically in the january memorandum of then acting secretary petoskey and the guidance of acting ice director kay johnson. those three areas are national

security, public safety, and border security. border security is specifically designed as recent border crossers and i think those documents and our actions speak powerfully to the fact the border is closed and we enforce the laws congress passed. but we will do so effectively to ensure the greatest impact and outcome from the resources we have. host: more from that hearing in just a couple of moments. you can watch the whole thing at c-span.org. title 42 mentioned in the new york times that it allows border agents to turn away migrants at the southern border without giving them a chance to apply for protections of the u.s. it justifies the expulsions as a health measure to prevent the coronavirus from spreading in holding facilities. congressman andy biggs,

republican from arizona, wrote an op-ed at fox and he wrote this about mr. mayorkas. he deceives americans by claiming the border is closed, but 178,000 the illegal aliens were encountered at our southern border in april alone. the record low in deportations show both ends of the biden administration's efforts to drive up the number of people in the country illegally. there are more than 3 million individuals, many who are suspected or convicted criminals, living in our communities and have been ordered by a judge to leave our country. yet, the biden administration is doing nothing about them. that was representative andy biggs. this past week robert calls up already, florida, you oppose the policy so far. tell us why.

caller: for one thing -- thank you for taking my call -- but letting these people come over, we are feeding them and everything. what is wrong with their own country? i heard they were throwing little kids over the border. we have enough people over here already. host: should anyone be allowed in from the southern border for any reason? caller: no. people come in legally. [indiscernible] they have got to stop that. this is ridiculous. people might not like trump or they might but the wall was

there for a reason. stop letting these people come over here. host: thank you. we will hear from the secretary later on about the wall. that was the back-and-forth between members of congress. ron is in maryland outside d.c., also an opponent. good morning. caller: good morning. it has been quite some time since i've called in so thank you. i am for sure opposed to what is taking place in our country and this is not the start of a joke, but my ex-wife is from russia and i spent tens of thousands of dollars sponsoring her and doing things the right way. it is really a slap in the face to see what is going on in our country. in d.c., southeast d.c., you can just drive through and how can

we as a country commit to taking care of illegal immigrants when we can't even take care of our own people? for the black people who are going to call in and support of what is going on, i don't know about where you live but around here in the mid-atlantic area you cannot go anywhere, anywhere and get a job. every person in ikea is now an illegal immigrant. we really need to come together and have a serious discussion as far as what is taking place in our country with illegal immigration. it seems to be getting pushed to the next demonstration. host: that was ron from maryland. we will hear from boston and a second but here is a couple of other messages. biden blows that cruel policy by

the racists trump/miller out of the water. the focus needs to be on the causes, which biden is doing. ending the failed and costly drug or will be helpful. who profits from that? text from bob. the biden demonstration is doing an awful job compared to trump. they claim the border is closed, that is not of the evidence shows on daily television. here is boston now, joseph calling. what are your thoughts this morning on the administration and border and immigration policy? caller: good morning. i am against president biden policy. i am a trump supporter. i think president trump had the right idea. let's bring some quick facts out. 11 million illegals in america? i am an immigrant legally and i fight for african-americans. i see how they get shortchanged.

[indiscernible] they arrested 600 undocumented workers. back in the 1950's these were the same companies that wanted to hire african-americans. paying them $14 an hour and they actually had to go to the state court of tennessee to hire african-americans. you go to boston, you cannot tell who is legal and illegal. i have nothing against immigration and legal workers. the people who clean the subway station, the bus stop, they are all hispanics. you look at the other factors and most illegal immigrants are

probably hispanics. you wonder why the crime rate is so high in the black community. president trump had the right idea. when people get the message they can just come across the border, that's what i'm saying. we need to address that. host: we get the point. we will get some other callers in a minute. here are some other headlines. fox news.com, mayorkas defense handling of migrant crisis, claims the border is closed amid gop criticism. want to take you back to this house subcommittee hearing that happened wednesday. we showed you a short piece earlier. this is a longer exchange. . it is th subcommittee chair asking secretary mayorkas to follow up

to hear about housing and release procedures for families. [video clip] >> mr. secretary, before i go on to my questions i just wanted to point out one other thing. with regards to the article that was referenced in the washington post it also states ice agents arrested 645 people that match the administration's new priorities in march. then more than double that number in april to 155,552. they are targeting -- they are making sure the american people are safe by targeting those with the highest criminal -- of the

most dangerous in our country. i just wanted to reference the other part of the article that talk about who was being targeted. mr. secretary, to help free up space in holding facilities ice recently began using two large family detention centers where migrant families are held for up to 72 hours well-being held. ice is also using several hotels has emergency family staging centers. how are decisions made about whether to release families directly from cbp custody or

transfer them to emergency staging centers for processing? >> by appreciate you citing the other data point in the article. the article makes a very important point and it is the foundational point which is that the resources of immigrations and custom enforcement are going to be dedicated to the greatest impact on behalf of the american people. we will not be enforcing law indiscriminately, misusing resources that don't deliver quality for the investment of resources. with respect to the ice facilities the reason we are

employing those facilities in the way that we are is because of the fact that we are indeed still addressing the covid-19 pandemic imperative. and we need facilities to test and isolate and quarantine family unit members as the science requires. we have transformed those facilities and are using the hotels for that purpose and if and when, for example, local facilities or community-based organizations that can provide similar services are in adequate. what we have done is have built architecture to ensure the proper processing and quarantine of family members we are unable

to expel under title 42. host: the secretary referring to the washington post piece which talked about a lot of the hearing. here is the headline, by demonstration rains and street-level enforcement by ice officials try to refocus the agency. this is from vox.com, the census shows the u.s. needs to increase immigration by a lot. the average newly arriving immigrant is 31 meaning they could help replace the aging workforce. they are more entrepreneurial which includes economic dynamism , working in industries such as health care, transportation, construction, agriculture and food processing. immigrants are more likely to settle in areas where

foreign-born populations already live which are typically large metro areas that have lost population in recent years. you can read more at vox.com. charlie, thank you for waiting in palm city florida. you support the president. caller: thank you for c-span. host: you're welcome. caller: one of the biggest issues, and i wish you would bring people onto talk about this, is the fact that americans, mostly people that have money, millionaires and corporations, are hiring these illegal aliens to come in and replace americans. i am in kentucky right now and i notice all these construction sites basically have hispanics pouring concrete, framing homes, putting electricity in, putting on the roofs or replacing

shingles on roofs. they are doing almost all the work but in louisville some 20,000 jobs are being taken up by people that are being used as slaves almost, subcontractors. they are not paying workman's comp or unemployment. when somebody gets injured on the job they get replaced, they go to the hospital where you have to pay for that, and i just think instead of -- in kentucky they passed a law to make sure contractors when they hire people are u.s. citizens because they are paying cash under the table and not paying taxes. host: charlie, what is your main message to the folks in washington? caller: this problem has been going on for 50 years and it's all about slave labor. if you can get somebody in here at $5 an hour and you don't have

to pay workmen's comp. and unemployment, guess what? you save all that money when you are building homes putting roofs on. the other problem we have is the produced into the grocery store would be empty if these people didn't come across to harvest the vegetables, but they don't go back on a green card. we had a nursery in fort pierce that had 127 people working at the nursery all here illegally and they had the same social security number. the federal government is collecting something like $40 billion a year and social security money and these people are never going to get there medicare benefits. they are not going to get anything and what i used to have to pay in for my medicare and social security benefits. it's all about money but we are creating a new slavery in this

country and it is killing people that are having to make $7 an hour minimum wage. they cannot afford to live and work and pay rent and car insurance and health care and childcare when making $7 or $8 an hour. host: thank you. gary is on the line from ohio. tell us what you think. caller: i think biden should be impeached for not enforcing the laws written down in the books. he should be impeached. host: that was gary from ohio. paterson, new jersey, michael, you are on the air. go ahead. caller: i am opposed to this

because as the guys said on the tv this is a racist thing. biden said no, it's not a racist thing. trump is securing the border. we need to secure border. letting all these illegals in, they have family members here. why you have to give them a check? these people are getting free education, maximum welfare, a check, sponsors are getting checks. they get a welfare check with the sponsor, they get money, education free, maximum welfare and guess what joe biden said about us? we are going to raise taxes. guess who is paying for this bs? we have illegal immigration and if they cannot get in -- we have legal immigration and if they can't get in, they shouldn't come in. i think joe biden's

anti-american. we want to transform america. to what? transform yourself joe because you need a lot of changing. joe can do the job and tell him i said so. host: that was michael from patterson, new jersey. headline that yahoo.com about the administration, biden administration to expedite immigration cases of undocumented families. the story breaking later in the dam friday. here is sam from wildwood, georgia. i support the biden policy and handling of the southern border. nothing happens overnight and let's not forget once again the democrats have to fix another failed republican president's inhumane actions. another piece from the hearing this week that we have been showing you. it is a different hearing. senate homeland security

appropriations committee. ranking republican shelley moore capito asked secretary mayorkas about illegal immigration from countries other than mexico like brazil. [video clip] >> i wanted to ask a question about the push factors and home countries as a cause for the current search of illegal -- surge of illegal immigration. you blame it on ongoing violence, food security and poverty, however, i am sure you are well aware that the spike in individuals is not from mexico or the northern triangle. nearly 34,000 folks were encountered that were not in either the mexico or triangle category. i am wondering what you account for that and we already have

sent $4 billion in foreign aid to the countries in central america. what are we doing to address the rise in illegal immigration from other countries? we met some young ladies when we were together two months ago down there from ecuador, brazil, nicaragua and other countries. >> that is a very important question and the strategy depends sometimes on the particular country of origin. of course we have seen illegal immigration or regular immigration from countries other than the northern triangle countries and other than mexico periodically throughout the years and decades. let me cite one example. you referenced it in your question. an increase in the amount of irregular migration from brazil. the data i have read suggests that has been by the economic

conditions in brazil caused by the pandemic, the closing of businesses, and the loss of jobs. we have a particular strategy there that might be distinct from a strategy that we employ with respect to the northern triangle countries, or quite frankly, the european countries from which we are seeing an increase in migration. regrettably, the covid-19 pandemic has afflicted countries all around the world and the migratory challenges correspondingly. not just for the united states, but other countries of destination. host: secretary mayorkas on the senate side. you can watch that hearing and all others at c-span.org. we are going to do this for half an hour more. the biden administration handling a border and immigration policy. what do you think?

one viewer at twitter rights, i want to hear about people's actual experience, not their observations driving past construction sites. give proof that the employers are not paying on a claim taxes. give proof they are paying $5 an hour. we have cj calling from baton rouge, louisiana. you oppose, tell us why. caller: one of the good things out of all of this is that covid must be over with. apparently there are hundreds, of thousands of people coming over the border that have covid so it must be cured here. no sane leader of the country would allow that to happen. for infected people to cross the border into a country that is

free of covid. so covid must be totally done with here in america. of course we now that is another biden fallacy. i wonder when someone is going to start pursuing the 25th amendment. we have to get that man out of there. he is crazy. host: moving onto bob in barrington, illinois also opposing the president's policy. why don't you tell us why. caller: i oppose it all because as far as integration goes years ago when you came to this country they were learning our language and our culture. now they turn it all around and say if you don't want to learn spanish, you are guilty. this country has gone to hell in a handbag.

nobody is going to resolve this until they say there is no more coming in. nobody is coming in unless they do it the right way. host: what do you think about the congress here and its efforts, or lack thereof depending on who's calling, on this issue over the years? what would you say to them? caller: i would say don't waste your time because congress is going to do what they want to do. nobody is going to change congress. they know it all. except this country is going down the toilet. i thank you for the call. host: thank you for calling. michael supports generally the compassionate approach is because it. michael's in portland, oregon. he is deeply troubled by the devaluation of the law required to achieve good ends. ends don't justify the means and perhaps the republicans have the better argument. here is a text from mike in new

jersey. republicans and their voters a scream about illegal immigration but always blame democrats and never talk about the root of the problem -- the white owned businesses that are hiring them. here is matt. caller: mr. mayorkas is a liar because the border is not closed and that is a fact. number two, thank you, is mr. biden and the democrats are essentially, by not checking their criminal backgrounds, they know criminals, drug dealers, and sex traffickers are coming through into this country along with tons, large quantities of

fentanyl. that is aiding and abetting criminals. one last comment, thank you sir, every last criminal that has defunded the police has seen a rise in crime. that is a fact. thank you very much. host: headline a bloomberg government, border agency prepares for end of covid immigration restrictions. hundreds more staff headed to the southwest border. single adults now account for majority of illegal crossings. that is bloomberg government. bill calling from new york. caller: how are you? host: doing fine. caller: right now in new york state the governor has $3 billion for illegal aliens. it has to go back to homeless the jobs. they have got to stop the border and he needs to be impeached.

the borders have to be closed and we need help in new york state. host: i am looking for more calls this morning on how you think the biden administration is handling border and immigration policy. we have been hearing folks for half an hour now. we welcome your texts and social media comments as well. this in the new york times, gun sales surge in the united states torn by distrust, a domestic arms race, increase in female, black, and hispanic buyers according to data. here is a look at the story. another week with another horrific mass shooting and cities across the country have gun homicides climbing. democrats and republicans argued over the causes. president biden said enough but

beneath the u.s. the appetite for firearms has only been increasing with more being bought by more americans than ever before. while gun sales have been climbing for decades they often spike in election years and after high-profile crimes. americans have been on an unusual, prolonged buying spree fueled by the pandemic, the protests last summer, and the fears they both stoked. let's hear from jim in new york. what do you think about the administration and its policy on immigration? caller: i watch this program and you always have people with academic knowledge of what is going on. i am living it. this is like a border town.

these houses are packed with people. they are overcrowded. they are bringing their relatives in. is there anybody there? host: we are listening. caller: sounds like a deadline. this happened around the late 1980's they started coming in. what you got is a family moves in and then you have the migration. i'm sure when you go home at night or whenever you go home from your job it's quiet. [indiscernible] the biggest problem i have is being a veteran you watch television and you see the

advertisers for the wounded warriors and help the vets, i don't know why the government is not taking care of the vets. they spent all this money on them. they are tripping all over each other and they are helping illegal immigrants. host: jim, let me put back at you vox.com article from earlier talking about the average age of the immigrants being 31. they were making the point they could help replace an aging workforce in this country. what do you think about that? caller: what do we want to do? pave over everything? looking at what happened to my town, in the nearby towns, i don't know if the environment can take this. host: going to let you go. steve is in new york, supporter of the president. tell us why. caller: why do i support the

president? because he is a normal person. he is a career politician that seems to be getting things done. i looked down at what is happening at the border and there is a lot of empty places where immigrants were housed just a few months ago he is finding the families, reuniting the families, and i must comment on the previous caller. he calls in on a regular basis and it is a diverse community. the houses go from $400,000 to $500,000. it is not impoverished. there is a county courthouse, there is a campus for the new york institute of technology. yeah there are poor sections but people have got to do what they got to do to get behind in this world. host: go ahead. would you like to finish up? caller: i would finish up. host: please. caller: i have been an english

as a second language teacher for 25 years and i see these people coming in firsthand the last 25 years. back when obama was president there was a change. it went from a lot of families moving in to a lot of desperate people from the lowest levels of society. not that there is anything wrong with that but it was a change. now i have noticed the people coming in they are young, you have 11-year-old girls coming in and why so many? that is when they start getting raped down in el salvador and guatemala so the parents send them appear. honestly, those of the students i have today. host: that was steve from miller place, new york. terry writes that facebook, i support his effort to deal with the problem at its source rather

than kidnapping children and separating them from their parents. we gave trunk watcher years and all he did was leave a mess behind. biden deserves a chance to do better. here is another piece from the house hearing that we covered earlier this week. mississippi republican congressman asks the secretary about what laws dhs would use to expel migrants crossing the border after the pandemic ends. [video clip] >> you mentioned used title 42 to expel those who are here illegally. but you also said once the pandemic is over you're going to get rid of title 42. what are you going to use then to expel immigrants coming up to america? please keep your remarks brief. >> i thank you for your remarks before the question and think of the question. title 42 is a public health

authority of the cdc and it requires a public health determination of need. it is not a tool of immigration enforcement by law. it is not a tool to monitor or control flows of people as a matter of immigration policy. it is a public health law. the data from a public health perspective has to support its use. when it is no longer available we will use immigration law, continue to use immigration law, and the other resources we have available to address regular migration. >> i do appreciate that. i just know that the border patrol agents really want to keep some form of title 42 in

place or protection protocols. they fear they are going to become overwhelmed once again. host: let's get back to calls on this topic. the bed and demonstration's handle of border and immigration policy. john in tallahassee, florida, you oppose. caller: i absolutely oppose. i want to give thanks to the king of kings. secondly, joe biden and the democrats are trying to replace black people with hispanic people because black people are going to eventually get off the damn reservation and are going to get smart. host: ira is in new york. you support the president. caller: thank you for taking my call.

i just want to express my gratitude for what is being done on the compassion. president biden cannot handle everything at one time. there are so many people that have migrated here and the beautiful part of it is they are trying to match the people up with their families and find them. in terms of the president, he is very compassionate but he spoke about his son. he has had so much tragedy and as i said, he reaches out as best he can. it is a far cry from what we have gone through in the past

five years and that still is hanging over our heads. i am so disappointed, if i might say, and expected it that the commission would be turned down. of course, hopefully there will be some people and i don't distinguish between democrats and republicans, i am a democrat, however, hopefully there will be some people that will form some kind of plan to tell the world what has happened and in specifics. i think it is very important for people to know, you know, what a

tragedy that was and thank god our democracy was threatened but we managed, under very serious circumstances. i have hope and i have faith in god and the people. a lot of people don't like the mayor. i think he also tries his best. maybe i don't see certain mistakes he made. he's human but he is trying. host: going to let you go. ira mentioned the vote in the senate on friday after the

january sixth commission bill to create a commission which passed in the house. it did not pass in the senate. republicans on friday blocked the launch. democrats behind pelosi want to charge ahead with internal approaches of their own. a process more likely to include a committee that focus on the violence and the role president trump play. here is another lead story out of texas in the washington post. texas republican steering finishing on voting records -- nearing finishing on voting records. they moved closer to enacting dozens of restrictions on the voting process as republican lawmakers reached a deal that

imposes a raft of hurdles on casting ballots by mail and enhances civil and criminal penalties for election demonstrators, voters and those seeking to assist them. it would make it illegal to send out unsolicited mail ballot applications and band practices like drop boxes and drive through voting that were popularized in heavily democratic harris county. texas still working on this issue this weekend. we will hear more about it i'm sure. roy is calling from melbourne, florida. you support the president. tell us why. caller: i support him very much because he has done a humane job as president. he is taking care of the situation of the border. it was overcrowded and all these people, back in the 1970's worried about people coming over the border, i never heard anything by that.

it been going on for years but it's not that bad. it was made awful by trump because he didn't live up to the policies. the republicans on the january 6th, they are a pathetic group of people. they are inhumane and the good thing about it is hopefully they will all be voted out in 2022 because they do nothing. if i were the cops, i would just leave. but getting back to the immigration problem, he's taking care of it. it has been night and day with him compared to trump. trump lost 30% of the vote when he called the chinese virus the chinese virus. he didn't know the military is married to filipinos, koreans. he so stupid he doesn't know anyway. host: that was roy. michael writes the border policy has been an example of how to drive illegal immigration to record numbers.

seems every month the numbers climb. ice's hands or tide. jean is calling now from virginia. caller: good morning. i am not going to judge except i wanted to quote a young immigrant who was interviewed at crossing the border. he paid $8,000 and spent four or five months getting here. he had one comment to make. the country he thought he was coming to is not the one he realized. he warned each one the direction we are headed economically and the lawlessness, we will be putting the backpacks on and looking for a place to go. he wants to know where will we go? god bless and thank you. that is out of the mouth of

a young man who made the crossing. host: we did you read that? caller: i think it was an interview on tv from fox news. i went back and pulled it up and it had repeated on several of the journal papers. i wrote the name down. i thought one of them was daily wire and i replayed it over and over again because my heart broke. host: thank you for calling. albany, new york with stu, he opposes the president. caller: how are you doing this morning? host: doing fine. caller: opposing correct immigration has been going on for years and it will continue to grow as the population does. however, when i would suggest is to everyone that is for illegal immigration is to welcome them into your neighborhood.

if you really want people to come into this country illegally by force, let's make them your neighbors. by them houses, help them get houses, $300,000 houses, $400,000 houses. let's get them into the wealthy neighborhoods. as for other plans by biden, the more people that take these jobs away from african-americans, people who are here illegally the more the wages will go down, the economy will suffer and once again if we are for illegal immigration, the wealthy neighborhoods and see how people like that. thank you for listening and thank you for your time. host: thanks for calling. here is a text from karen in california, i support controlled

immigration policy but resent having to prove my status take the job when illegal immigrants don't seem to have a problem getting a job. the reagan rules are not followed. enforce the job rules. here is senator chris murphy from connecticut at the wednesday senate homeland security appropriations committee. in this clip he asked the homeland security secretary about the biden administration decision to stop construction of the border wall. [video clip] >> let me ask you to talk a little bit about senator cap ito's letter to you to suspend construction of the border wall. i think the border wall is a waste of taxpayer money and invitation to continue to seed and legitimate fears of immigrants that was the foundation of the president's political endeavors. but the part of the letter i

agree with is when congress directs the administration to spend money the administration has a responsibility to spend that money unless it goes to the processes necessary to apply for rescission. what i have seen is that the gao has made some findings about the process used to build the border wall that are pretty stunning. gao found 10 of 11 congressional requirements connected to the construction of the wall were not fully addressed, including basic things like implementation schedule and analysis of alternatives or even identifying things that might actually impact whether it would impact the border security goals. as you are in this review process have you identified some of the failings that were noted in that gao report? do you also, i think, acknowledge congress' equity,

notwithstanding our personal decisions that there is responsibility to either spend it or come back to congress and explain why they aren't? >> mr. chairman, number one we are well aware of our legal responsibilities and we are indeed complying with those legal responsibilities. i am also aware of the report and its findings. we are studying the work that was done and what we have underway with respect to the findings and making sure we do not perpetuate any infirmities of the past. >> pretty stunning list of infirmities found by gao. the last administration waived a whole host of federal, state and local laws that would have required much thorough vetting of construction activities. i hope the administration is

looking at those broad-based waivers as well. host: here's a text from kentucky, joe biden has done exactly what jesus would do. he is a good catholic christian man. people are suffering and being killed, raped. jesus would do the same thing for these people. herrmann in dallas, texas now, supporter of the president. go ahead. caller: i support biden because he is humane and his policy is humane. but i don't think -- the problem will ever be solved until we face the size and scope of the problem. i believe there should be massive facilities instead of a wall on both sides of the border that house people and feed people and direct people.

you can even take them back to where they came from but you get all their information. why did they come? why did they make the arduous trip? we cannot even have an infrastructure bill so that will never happen, but that's how i see it. it is not going to be solved until we face the size and scope of the problem and leave it where it is. host: thank you for calling. we mentioned a story about guns earlier. there was another mass shooting last night in miami. here is the headline of the miami herald, to killed and more than 20 wounded in mass shooting at a concert for miami-dade police. shot outside jackson memorial hospital. two people killed up to 25 wounded at a mass concert. one of those is in critical condition. it started after midnight at a concert at a billiards hall at 186th street west of miami

gardens. the banquet hall have been rented out for the concert. some concertgoers were outside when a white nissan pathfinder pulled up. three unidentified people stepped out with assault rifles and handguns and started shooting into the crowds. we have ed on the line from pleasant valley, new york. good morning. caller: good morning. i'm calling in as i have on the past on your immigration status. we are out of control. new york state right now -- and i hear the people calling from new york -- they don't realize i am upstate new york. host: where is pleasant valley exactly? give us a description of what you think is happening. caller: between albany and new york city. about two hours each way. host: ok.

caller: what's happening in this area our schools are being jampacked with the children. i feel for the children but the people who don't see what is going on, the taxpayers are paying for all of this. $233 million budget. two thirds of the people are foreigners whether they are legal or not. the foreclosed homes on our back roads where we live. somebody is financing these people to be taken care of. i saw it happen back in the 1980's and it is sad for them because they were being taken over by lawyers in california

taking the personal money, giving them a false social security number and they thought they were legal. i felt bad for these people because a lot of them lost their job. we are doing it to ourselves in this country and biden, o my god. god help us the next three years we have him for president. we, the taxpayers, are going to pay for his shortfalls. host: we go to mike in tampa, florida, supporter of the president. good morning. caller: good morning. i have a quick comment. these republicans who keep complaining about the border like to have it both ways. we see a lot of these republicans are employers of illegal immigrants, yet they complain about moving immigrants over the border. that's the problem. they need to find some way of making sure that people who are

illegally in this country cannot find jobs, yet they are finding jobs. there are jobs here so i was republicans would stop complaining and come up with something realistic. host: thank you for calling. you get the last word. thanks to everybody who called in and the first hour of washington journal. coming up next we are going to review a busy week in politics and preview the battles coming ahead. we have washington post opinion columnist paul waldman joining us to give us his thoughts in addition to your calls. later in the program author and law professor frank buckley will talk about his book "curiosity and its twelve rules for life." you are watching washington journal on this memorial day weekend. it is sunday, may 30. we will be right back. ♪

♪ >> tonight on q&a, a conversation with rick bier on his documentary and book about a world war two unit called "the ghost army." >> patent had raced across france with the third army toward germany. he was focused on trying to attack a city. there was a gap that opened in the front line and we didn't have troops. the ghost army was in paris. by the next day, they are a mile from the front line setting up and pretending to be the sixth armored division. >> tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span's q&a. you can also listen as a

podcast. find it where you get your podcasts. ♪ host: joining us now is paul waldman, washington post writer. how would you rate president biden's performance? guest: it is still early but a

lot of liberals have been pleasantly surprised. he in some ways has been more aggressive and asserted -- assertive than people predicted. if you inc. back to the 2020 primary campaign. you had elizabeth morning and bernie sanders who wanted to do something transformative and be aggressive and biden was the one who said he would be the moderate and have bipartisan compromise. the voters decided that they would take the safe route and go with him because that is what they felt would be most palatable. that turned out to be the correct assessment. there were still a lot of people on the left who were worried that he would just be a caretaker and he would occupy the office and getting rid of donald trump was their priority but he wouldn't do a lot with it

once he got there. that hasn't turned out to be true. with the first covid relief bill in plans he has put out has been more assertive than people would have predicted a year ago. it is obviously still early. he has only signed 14 bills so far and some have been very small, like adding sesame to the list of allergens on food labels and things like that but a lot of people on the left are pleasantly surprised. you hear republicans' critique of them that he performed a bait and switch and said he would be a moderate and that is not really true either. if you look at the things he is advocating for, most of which have not passed, they are things

he laid out in the campaign. most people don't go and read the speeches and look at the plans that a candidate puts on their website but so far he hasn't done anything he didn't say at some point he wanted to do. there is a long way to go but he isn't governing as somebody who is of the democratic party at the moment and that is a key part of his identity and has been since he was elected in 1972. he has put himself in the middle of the democratic party but now the party has moved a few steps to the left and he has moved along with it. host: paul waldman will be here with us for another 40 minutes, and opinion writer with the washington post. democrats, (202) 748-8000,

republicans, (202) 748-8001, and for our guest (202) 748-8002. there is a quote that mr. biden recently said to the "new york times." i wanted to take -- get your opinion. he spoke in an interview and said the progressives don't like me because i'm not prepared to take on what i would say and they would say is a socialist agenda. deconstruct that for us. what do you think about those remarks, the way he feels? guest: i think his impulse is to position himself as person of bipartisanship, common sense, compromise. it is in his interest to say that he is not really like by the left.

it is not surprising to hear him say something like that, but there is a certain sense in which it is the image he wants to project at the same time i think biden has done and adapt job at making sure the people to his left are not that upset with him. he takes their input and his staffing of his administration has definitely been more progressive than people would think it would be -- people thought it would be. he has done a good job of quieting down the internal dissension. that is not to say people on the left don't criticize him for one move or another and it is the job of the people toward the edge of the party to constantly be pressuring the president or leadership to move more in their direction. they are always going to do that.

you're never going to get to the point where they say the president is doing fine. their purpose is to keep the pressure on. that is the way the party system is supposed to work. at the same time, biden is invested that he is the person to reach across the aisle and will the bringing people together. when he says they are mad at me for not being more of a socialist, to a certain extent that is keeping up the image he wants to project. host: he put on his budget friday at later in the day and we have been sifting through this. you have an opinion piece that says bidens budget shows white -- biden's budget shows white he's a popular president. what are you saying here? guest: thinks he put in his budget were popular if you would be able to enact it.

it is different than some of the budget that donald trump put out. it is always kind of a wish list. when president puts his out, he was saying this is what i would do if i had the chance. a lot of trump budget had cuts to medicaid and medicare that were never actually going to happen and they didn't want to make a lot of noise about. there is something biden said when he was out promoting this. he gave a speech where he talked a lot about dignity the job and at work and it is important that it is not the dignity of work, which is a way of saying get off of your duff and get a job and then you will have dignity. biden is talking about dignity at work, that you have to be treated with dignity at work and on the job.

you achieve that with different things. there are rules about how workplaces operate that the administration is going to be promoting and propagating. they just reversed a trump administration policy that allowed pork producers to take limits off of line speeds at factories which can make it dangerous for workers and result in injuries. that is the kind of thing they are going to be doing in terms of workplace rules. biden wants to create a robust system of social supports, childcare, expanding access to health care and eldercare and universal pre-k. what does that have to do with your dignity at work? it makes it so people are not so beholden to their employer that they are destined to keep their

job, even if it is low waged and not feel like they're being treated fairly because they are desperate to keep it because it would be catastrophic if they lost it that they would put up with anything. the idea is if you create the stronger social supports it puts more power in the hands of a worker. a worker can say, i don't like this job and i'm going to get a different one and i am not concerned my entire life will collapse. if you give people a stronger foundation, then that puts more power in their hands. biden is also supporting unions and distinct from other presidents and even democratic presidents, he was talking about having dignity. host: as we go to calls to paul waldman, this is according to

the wall street journal and the new york times, this coming out on friday toward the evening hours. $8.2 trillion in total spending by 2031. 6 trillion in spending for fiscal year 2022, on point five 2 trillion in discretionary spending, up 8.4% from 2021. $1 trillion in deficits in each year -- $1.52 trillion in discretionary spending come up 8.4 percent from 2021. $1 trillion in deficits each year. what is your thought? guest: there has been a change in democrats in the way they think about budgets and deficits. for a long time democrats were intimidated by the people saying we have to get troll of the -- get control of the deficits.

they change their ideas on it they got fed up with republicans. republicans would say we have to impose austerity and bring down the deficit and cut social spending and then went republicans are in power they stop caring about the deficit. democrats got fed up with that. that is the first thing. the second thing is there has been a reorientation among economists and liberal economists that the fears of what would happen if the deficit increased heaven turned out to pass. we have had steadily increasing deficits and we have not had runaway inflation. a lot of economists are saying it is fine to run significant deficits and if the things you are using the money for our things you are as you think are

worthwhile. democrats have said, we are not going to be intimidated by the sky -- bite people saying the sky is falling because of the high deficit as long as the things we are spending -- by people saying the sky is falling because of the height deficit as long as we are spending things that are worthwhile. you take universal pre-k, democrats think it is good for the country in the long term and will produce a healthier economy 10, 20, 30 years down the line so we will no longer be worried about the deficit that much. that is reflected in biden's budget and the way democrats talk about this. we still have a debate about deficits but democrats have not been as frightened of that as they were in the past. i think you are going to see that over the coming years. we saw this pattern with the

obama administration where he kind of got sort of cornered into accepting austerity measures because of the deficit in the situation with a democratic president. we are much less likely to see that. even if the republicans take over both houses in 2022, the perspective on how worried we have to see about deficits have changed. host: ralph calling from new jersey, democratic caller. what is on your mind? caller: it would seem as though the republican reaction to the proposed budget, particularly the infrastructure budget, is largely obstructionist in nature. the reason there is obstructionist policy in the republican party is because they

learned a valuable lesson from donald trump and that is because it doesn't matter how absurd, ridiculous, or counterproductive the things you say and do our as long as you are in the daily news cycle and that is the way you get your message out and become elected, because you are presented to the public in a way that seems superior. my question to your guest is, first of all, would you agree with that it seems as though the most important thing to the republicans at this point, particularly because it has become the party of trump is that you must win the daily news cycle and that nothing else matters? it doesn't matter how ridiculous or counterproductive anything you say or do is. host: thank you for calling. mr. waldman? guest: i disagree in part.

if you think of someone like mitch mcconnell, who is currently guiding the republican party, he always has a long-term vision. i think this is important to understand as we are watching all of this about whether there will be an infrastructure bill and if it is going to be bipartisan. think about where the two parties interests lie. the republican party interest is in biden being a failure. if the public looks at washington and says nothing is working and they can't get anything past and do anything to improve my life, that is good for republicans. that means people will go to the polls and reject the party in power. if biden looks successful and is passing bills and those bills are having effects you can see in your community, that is good for biden and bad for republicans.

so their interests, if you think about the infrastructure bill, are opposite. the best thing for joe biden is if there is a big infrastructure bill passed and does a lot of good and is also bipartisan and that way he can say i succeeded and got this past and kept my promise. it is the best thing for him and the worst thing for republicans. so they prefer the bill to fail. but if it is going to pass, they would rather it pass without republican support and then they can say, this is to partisan. you may get one or two republicans to vote for a big democratic infrastructure bill like say, susan collins of maine, that's because her particular political brand is built on bipartisan cooperation. so it is good for her to show her constituents that she is being bipartisan.

but the party is really in biden failing. this isn't a big secret. if you ask mitch mcconnell, he would say yes, and he has said we want this president to be a failure. with all of these negotiations and worries about how many republicans are going to vote for this, it is important to keep in the back of your head, where are the interests lying? that is why in the end, you will never see them vote for the democratic bill and you will never get more than one or two of them. that is where things will end up. everyone claims they want bipartisanship. in fact, it is not in very many peoples' interest. host: a couple of headlines. mcconnell returns as senate "grim reaper."

here is the washington post, their agenda at stake. democrats are sizing up the filibuster and what to do next. it's something we will be talking about in the weeks ahead. host: an independent choleric from lakeland, florida. go ahead. -- an independent caller from lakeland, florida go ahead. caller: i am a newly minted green party member, aged 72. it was a republican for 50 years. when the january 6 attack revealed that republicans have leaders with carnal minds, i jumped ship and got into the green party. i am looking at the green party minister and i ask her to tell the world how three dead people

in heaven are crying, abraham lincoln emma martin luther king, and mother teresa. martin and -- abraham lincoln, martin luther king, and mother teresa. martin luther king is said his ideas are useless and outdated because he believed in people being colorblind, judge on character. the critical race theory uses vulgar language about martin. mother theresa was white, so she was not good enough, despite what she did to help the least of them. abraham lincoln is crying because the recurrent republican party leadership is trying to murder truth. host: do you have a question for the guest? caller: would you support that mother theresa would want them

to gather on june 13 to pray for the women of afghanistan? guest: i am not sure what mother teresa would want what it calls to mind some of the argument we are having about critical race theory. most of the people who are crying about it don't know what it is. we are seeing at a state double, one republican led state after another passing laws that try to ban certain kinds of discussions of racism in public schools. this is an aggressive push. there are a few things going on that are interesting. democrats are in power in washington and republicans have power at the state double. publicans are being aggressive in using power they have. in many ways, the argument over race is becoming a new kind of lost because.

after the civil war there was an effort to rewrite history of the civil war to erase the stain from the south and say it was about states rights and didn't have anything to do with slavery. there is a new effort in terms of controlling what people's memory is and how people can talk about it, what is going to be taught to children. now in state after state, republicans are trying to reach down into the classroom and dictate what teachers can say and can't say when it comes to race. this is part of a larger phenomenon happening at the state double, and i think we can talk about voting rights but this is especially true in a certain kind of state where the state is trending democratic over the long term but republicans are still in charge.

you see this in texas, georgia, arizona, that they are really making large attempts to exercise their power into the local levels, to pass preemption laws that say that cities, counties, you miss the polities can't -- municipalities can't do certain things. and a lot of cases, what you have are conservative states that are run by conservatives at the top but they are also liberal cities. this is true in every state. there will be at least a couple liberal run cities in that state. you are seeing aggressive pushes by the state legislatures which tend to be run by republicans to try to dictate what kind of rules and laws can be passed at the local level, because they are worried and that texas whether it is austin or idaho in

boise that the cities that are run by democrats will start passing rules on guns and increasing minimum wage and that the state level republicans don't like and they will reach down and change the rules down there. host: part of that is part of the washington host piece, democrats fear fate of the agenda if the filibuster lives. the most explosive showdown is likely to occur in the last week of june where the senate will vote on protection for voting rights. without passage of such a measure, some democrats fear new laws passed by republican led communities will make it easier for republicans to win elections for years to come. let's hear from tom in montana,

republican. caller: i guess i find it hard to believe president biden has any kind of success when the whole country is in chaos, when people can rob and kill and it just continues to get worse and worse. how can we say he is doing anything when he says the border is closed. everybody knows that is an out and out lie. i don't understand how people can say he is doing any good, because the country is worse as far as i have seen and i am 74 years old. host: we spent an hour talking about the administration's border and immigration policy p how would you rate it? guest: it remains to be seen what happens.

we are only a few months into the administration. it is one of the thorniest questions. every single president in recent years has try to come up with a solution and hasn't been able to. there are practical problems -- how do you deal with people that cross who you catch? and there is a long-term fundamental problem and we have seen a cycle where it seems like the two parties if you asked them what they want to do over the long term, that there were plenty -- there would be plenty of opportunities. we have heard for years there is a compromise waiting out there, that you could create a path for citizenship, especially with dreamers and that would make democrats happy and you could beef up border protections and that would make republicans happy and if we could just get the bill passed, things would improve. what we've seen over and over in congress is that we have gotten very close at certain times a

bill passed the senate when barack obama was president we got scuttled by house republicans is because if you are a republican, your party may have an interest in settling this issue and having that compromise showing, especially latino voters, that you are interested to make these long-term changes. but on an individual level, you probably got elected in a district where you don't have to fear a challenge from a democrat, you have to fear a primary challenge from a more conservative republican. so it is in your interest knowing how the republican base feels, to basically refuse to compromise and to use it as an issue to get people mad. donald trump certainly showed that within the republican party you can get people mad about immigration. this is one of the interesting

failures of the trump presidency . he came in saying he was going to change everything, that he was going to essentially banish the immigrants and turn america back to what it was when you were young, and he couldn't do that. it is fundamentally impossible for the president to do that. there are people who feel kind of disoriented when they walked to the supermarket and here people speaking spanish. that still happens. we are always going to have immigrants coming to america. trump couldn't change that. you can build a wall but you won't change the fundamental character of the country that way. we could fix immigration. there are plenty of policy ideas out there but it is a matter of getting the parties to agree to it, especially republicans. democrats are more willing to make those long-term changes.

host: we will go to mary in philadelphia, a democratic caller for paul waldman. caller: good morning mr. waldman and c-span. i would like president biden to start utilizing our intelligence agencies more. as a garver -- retired government worker, we have captured everything under our intelligence satellite system under president reagan. when he said trust but verify, he was absolutely right, because it is posted and established. the only thing he would have to do is pull up the information under our income employment verification system. you have to have a high-security clearance to retrieve this information, and immigration

policies would be corrected. if anything, president biden should be in a corrective mode now. every policy that should be utilized, we have our defense department, security exchange commission, state department, we have captured every thing around the world, case in point, edward snowden with what he did taking are vital information to china and washington. host: mary, thank you for calling. an interesting thought. guest: i think that national security is an area where we haven't yet seen a whole lot of really dramatic changes from the biden administration. that often happens in a new presidency.

they want to pass legislation and that is with the focus is. at some point biden is going to phase some national security crisis and we will see how he performs. he puts a lot of stock in personal relationships of foreign leaders and thinks that he can bend events to his will through those sorts of relationships and we just don't know what that crisis is going to be and we don't know how biden is going to navigate it. i think that is one of the things that turns out to be really important about a presidency hard, what are they going to be like in crisis? how will they react to events they didn't see? we saw that with donald trump and the pandemic. i think the jury will be out on joe biden for some time on that.

host: based on what that caller said that, the president did call for using the security apparatus to look into china and the origins of the coronavirus. what do you make of that call to his intelligence agencies to produce a report? guest: i think it's perfectly fine. it's kind of industry that this is getting so much attention, because in a lot of ways it's of more historical interest and important in terms of preventing future pandemics. a gets caught up in policy and -- in partisan politics -- it gets caught up in partisan politics. you had trump saying it was some kind of bioweapon and some in the party were saying china created covid to wreak havoc on the world. it is possible that it escaped

from a lab. that does happen sometimes in the virology world. i think it is important to know exactly what happened, but that's important for the history of this pandemic, one of the most important in world history. but it is also important to know if we need to change labs around the world who deal with dangerous pathogens and what new protocols might have to be put in place. it shouldn't be considered a victory for one side or the other if it turns out if it occurred naturally in a bat like many others have traveled for animals -- from animals to human or if it turns out it escaped from a lab, that can tell us how to prevent pandemics in the future but should not be considered a victory for one party or another.

that shouldn't matter. we need to know and it is good if the administration takes whatever steps it can to give us that information. it shouldn't have anything to do with partisan politics. host: jason is calling from marietta ohio, a republican caller. caller: the thing i was calling about is the two-party system here in this country. at this point, i feel that the two-party system is creating such division in this country. i think it would be better if we had a couple more parties to choose from. i was wanting your thoughts on that shoe, because -- on that issue, because i think the parties are playing the american people against each other when actually there are good ideas on both sides of the aisle. host: paul waldman, two-party

system, future? guest: there is the argument to be made that we would benefit more if we had stronger third parties. everything in our system is built toward maintaining the two-party system. for instance, in a lot of country's parliament there are many different parties and the bigger party forms a coalition to take over the government. if you want to vote for a green party or a far-right party or far-left party or party that has some other particular focus you can do that and not feel like it is a pointless vote. if you are voting for congress and you have a green party or libertarian candidate, they will never win. the white party gains strength is when it has members in office and can show what the party can do if they are actually given power.

in the system where it only matters if you get to 50% plus one, none of the smaller parties can put anyone in office, so that keeps in place the two-party structure. what we are seeing now, people may remember to o'neill who used to say all politics -- tip o'neill, who set all politics is local. if you are a senator and you had worry about whether there were potholes in your town, but now all politics is national and every buddy has to have an opinion about donald trump and joe biden even if you are running for dog catcher. the media is a big part of that. 50 years ago, got your information from the local newspaper and now everyone can turn into national media and local newspapers are dying. since all politics is national, it makes the beliefs of the party in the interest of the party take over everything all the way down to the local level.

that can have a lot of perverse consequences. i would agree with the caller, getting from the system we are now where we have more robust third parties is tricky. it is not an easy thing to do but there are some interesting reform ideas out there. i think that is something that would probably be good for the country to make those parties more healthy. host: another policy point on health care, why democrats must keep pushing on a public option even if biden won't. what are you saying here? guest: people may remember during the 2020 primaries there were a number of the democratic candidates talking about single-payer health care and biden advocated for a public option, which was the sort of moderate position. it means we would create program like medicare or medicaid that

people could buy into if they wanted. if you wanted to get your health care from lacrosse or one of the other countries -- from blue cross or other countries you could do that but if you wanted this government plan you could do this. he had a well-thought-out plan that was based on plans that other democrats in congress had been throwing around for years. he hasn't actually done anything to move on it. his new budget has text and it that says we want to do this but does not go into detail and it does not put dollar figures on it. biden knows it will be a huge knockdown drag out fight health care reform. if you look at the hospitals, the pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, they view public option almost as much a threat as single-payer option because their worry is that people will like it and start to use it and millions will migrate

and that will cut into the profits of all those very well-funded health-care interests. they are prepared to drop tens of millions or hundreds of millions of dollars to fight it if and when we ever get a real legislative battle. it would be a knockdown drag out fight on the scale of the battle we had over obamacare which consumed the country for a year. biden knows that and was a fight he would rather put off as long as possible. what i was arguing there is that liberals who feel this is a good idea, they have to keep pushing for it, even if biden would like to keep it on the back burner. this goes back to party dynamics. it is important for them to keep that issue as high-profile as possible and make the case for why it would be a good thing. and when you do that you refine the idea and that makes it more

likely it will actually get taken up and when it does it is more likely to succeed. this is an important dynamic. during the big care push between clinton in 1993 and barack obama on a 2009 passing his, you had a lot of work done by activists to refine ideas and promote their ideas, to be prepared so that when you have a president who is ready to say we are going to try to do this health care reform that all of that is in place and a consensus has been reached in the party about how it should work and what it should do and that makes it much more likely it will pass. the liberals who want to see the public option pushing biden. the more work they do, the more likely it is to succeed. host: let's go to texas,

independent caller, lisa, thank you for waiting. you are on with paul waldman. caller: the previous caller hit a lot of points that i was about to make. i feel that mr. biden, president biden is doing a good job, the best he can. he is trying to pull america back together. i don't understand why both parties don't understand, united we stand, divided we fall, we are fighting against the same interest in many ways. i think it is sad, and it is weakening our country. host: mr. waldman? guest: yeah, it's in a way the people in washington really are trapped. i do want to say there is some

misconception out there. you always see people who run for office saying, well, if you send me to washington, i'll advocate for common sense solutions and we will get down and roll up our sleeves and find the solutions to problems. the problem with that is the parties as they are now have profoundly different agendas. it is not just a matter of taking a bipartisan solution off of the shelf for a lot of issues. republicans want to restrict abortion rights, democrats want to expand. you can go down a list and there are very different ideas about what we should do. it is often not possible to get a compromise. and the parties are so sorted now. if you go back 50 years, there were liberal republicans from

the north and conservative democrats from the south. both parties work complex coalitions and within that you could find ways to get bipartisanship on a lot of issues. now you can't, because there really are no more liberals in the republican party. you just had these profound differences that aren't going to be worked out. that is why i think in many ways, for instance the filibuster become so problematic, because it just results in everything actually graining to a halt. we still have this idea that the filibuster is good because it promotes bipartisan compromise and if you have to get cooperation from across the aisle, then you will produce better results. the trouble is that the republicans in this case don't have any interest in getting to

bipartisan compromise. it is bad for them and that means it will be less likely for them to take back power. the filibuster is helping bipartisan compromise. if you had a situation where something was going to pass you might be able to get some republicans to come aboard and help shape it. the voters never get what they want in the current situation. the way that a represented democracy is supposed to work, one party gets elected, they come into office, they advance their agenda and pass things and the public says, that was good or that was bad. if they think it worked out well, then they reelect the party and if they didn't, they give the other party a chance. one party is selected and they can't do anything because the filibuster allows the opposition party to shut down legislation. and then the opposition party can say, nothing is happening and elect us and then that party can't get anything done.

so the voters never get the things they thought they were voting for. in a polarized age, when you have something like a filibuster in place, and makes governing possible. that is why i think that if we were to get rid of it, at the very least you could say, ok, we elect this party and they didn't a bunch of things and now we can decide if we like them or not. if we have the situation where the default situation is nothing gets passed, the voters never get an opportunity to see the results from whom they voted for. host: what is your prediction? filibuster go away? guest: i think there is a chance that it will be changed in some way. now we need joe manchin and those who have put themselves in charge of that.

i have talked a lot about people's interest. what is his interest? he is a democrat that represents a state that voted for donald trump in 2020 by 36 point, so he has built his brand on being the guy who says the democrats, slowdown, you are being too liberal and ink guy who crafts bipartisan compromise. that is what he has to keep telling his constituents he is doing. if he pulls the trigger and now democrats get to pass stuff they want, that could be a political problem for him. it is always a negotiation with him. in every situation, he has to be seen as having exhausted every possibility for bipartisanship and we are seeing that with the filibuster. you are only going to get that reform if he in particular finds himself in a situation where he can persuasively say to his voters that he had no other

choice. the obstruction had gotten so bad that he finally had to allow for some kind of reform that would enable bills to get past. -- passed. it may have to be on legislation where he takes a liberal bill and slashes it down to something that he can show the west virginia voters that it is more in-line line with something they want. there is a chance it will be reformed in some way that allows legislation to be passed but he will not be eliminated as long as manchin has something to say about it. host: our guest has been paul waldman. thank you for your time. we will take another short timeout. the last half hour, we will take a look at president biden's budget and the federal debt and apposite levels.

we will get -- and deficit levels. frank buckley will talk to us about his book called "curiosity and its twelve rules for life." he joins us next. we back -- we will be right back. author and law school professor -- >> >> >> book tv hasn't nonfiction authors every weekend. tonight at 10:00, the premonition, a pandemic story. michael lewis writes about the early warning signs of the covid-19 pandemic and the trump administration's response. tonight on book tv on c-span two. >> c-span shop.org is the online store. there is a collection of products. a browse to see what is new. you still have time to order the

congressional directory with contact information for members of congress and the biden administration. go to c-span shop.org. >> c-span's landmark cases explores the stories and constitutional drama behind significant supreme court decisions. watch key episodes from our series. tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern, the dred scott decision that held that about person either free or slave could never be a u.s. citizen or sue in federal courts. watch landmark cases, tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern on c-span, online at c-span.org or listen on the c-span radio app. >> the tech industry is often about the future. politics is a lot about the present. there are valid concerns that people have in the present about what technology is going to mean for them.

i am not keen on bashing congress. i do think that any future technology asked to answer concerns about what its impact will be on people, communities, the environment. those are understandable questions. >> the power of the tech industry with the founder and ceo adam kovacevich. >> washington journal continues. host: our guest is frank buckley who is with george mason university and the author of a book with an interesting title "curiosity and its twelve rules , for life." thank you for joining us. guest: thank you for having me. how would you describe curiosity, how important was it, and what got you to write a book about curiosity? guest: we have just gone through

a very unhappy year, 2020. we were shot in with the pandemic and it was a year dominated by politics. we got the message that if you're not thinking about correct thoughts, politics of whatever kind, you are deeply immoral. i wanted to say, no, it's not like this at all. we have been made terribly unhappy about this. one of the things was let curiosity take you outside and see what is outside your we are curious people, americans are, and we should give free reign to that. so i offered ripping off jordan peterson 12 rules of how to do so. host: from the book, we year and to get out for other people and when that wasn't permitted we languished. during rights and protests, we were told one great people that

it was immoral to be curious about anything else. this happened after a bitter impeachment and election-year with after its rank are had become -- rancor, and for the way in which trump had become to bore us with his then skinned animosities. there is only one way out of the madness and that was to let our curiosity take us by the hand and lead us. tell us more. guest: great literature. that was the idea. the more i looked at it, the more fun it was here the book is a collection about stories of curious people. all of the people we admired were people who did something prompted by curiosity. the lessons were things like take risks, show grit. there are a lots of things you can do to follow your curiosity. and it was a great idea to

pursue and i hope a fun read. host: you also write, don't be smug. guest: smugness was a 19th-century vice in a way. there was a time then, and there is a time now with some people, to pretend that their bored and to say they aren't interested in anything. the 19th century courted their experiences with the beautiful. they weren't interested in the outside world. that led many of them to drastic things like either a bullet in the head or a visit to the jesuits in farm street for something equally drastic to be converted. so it was a dead-end.

it played itself out. there is still the dark side we all have. there is still a sense that we want to stay inside and hide in the cupboard. we have to recognize that and fight against it. host: phone numbers on the bottom of the screed for frank -- screen, for frank buckley. for democrats, (202) 748-8000, for republicans, (202) 748-8001, for independence, (202) 748-8002 . we are talking to frank buckley, author of his book called "curiosity and its twelve rules , for life." we want to talk to you about various issues and get callers but more about the book. how did you come to the conclusion that progressives that made this what you are calling and incurious time? guest: because the presser --

the pressure to think about the thoughts coming from them. it has gotten worse with cancel culture. in east germany, about 10% of the population was persuaded to rat on their neighbors. we have something like that going on now and we don't even have the government to do it. the government is be suspicious about your neighbors, they might be insurrectionists and hiding we are not like that. i think it would be healthy for the country to get over that and realize we are all on the same page. it is not about ratting other people out and canceling them but recognizing that where we disagree, we might yet agree on some very fundamental things about how to make america better. so i am arguing against things like rigid ideologies and partisanship on both sides. they are like mental trash folders. that permits us not to care about other people.

we've got our ideology and a key that unlocks all doors and what it permits us to do is a door looking at the -- is ignore the facts and how our actions might affect other people. it is a killer of curiosity. host: on trump haters and lovers, shriek past each other like furious apes locked in a cage. but it's mostly the rage filled progressives who are to blame. frank buckley writing in "curiosity and its twelve rules for life." we have a call from greenwich, new york, and independent. you are on with frank buckley. go ahead. caller: thank you. america is in a bad spot, bad position today. we have, for the past 40 years,

a pathological liar and a lot more than that in donald trump. america abides, everybody should abide by the constitution and the rule of law. we have seen the past four years the republican party not even come close to defending or protecting the constitution and the rule of law. you have a democratic party coming in and trying to clean up what trump and the republican party has done. there is one objective truth and there are half truths. you have fox news, and some of the others, newsmax, that have sworn their allegiance to trump. and that, to me, -- well, if we

lose democracy here in america, we turn to -- trump wants to come back and be president in the republican party. donald trump was impeached twice in the republican party and they acquitted him. the majority of america understands and realizes what the republican party is doing. host: frank buckley, what do you make of the words? guest: i am wondering how many times can we impeach the guy? we have done it twice who we can go four or five times but let's try to recognize the good faith of people on either side. there were many millions of people who voted for trump who are not irredeemably evil, and the thought that they are is really corrosive of our politics. it seems to me almost as if we have a mental health crisis in this country and the crisis is one in which we mistrust our

neighbors, we see people and the people with whom we disagree, and that's not very healthy and it's divisive. it's made the country a very unhappy place right now. i think what i'd like to do is suggest that we all spend some time putting all of those angry emotions aside and try to do things to which our nature leads us, which is open the door, look outside, be curious, recognize that curiosity involves curiosity about other people and curiosity also involves curiosity about our own motives. there is a lot of deception about our own virtue. when we are permitted to display our righteous anger at other people, we've created our own sense of holiness and i don't think that

guest: and that's in, curiosity is a foundation of morality. thinking about other people. thinking well of other people. thinking more closely about our own motives. >> there are plenty of stories out there about republicans believing these claims. more than half of republicans believe a folder for -- voter fraud claims, still supporting trump. >> guest: i would like it all to go away. i suppose the best way for it to go away is prevent vote recounts in most districts. by the way, at the same time there's an argument for some kind of election reform.

i will leave it at that. host: let's go to oak ridge, tennessee. democrat, is it rihanna? caller: a beautiful cool morning here. i think it's so true that americans are very curious. you may notice from my accent that i come from another country and i can tell you america set me free to everyone -- to tell everyone i meet in public. people are so willing to learn from each other. americans all have this feeling. they don't want to waste anything. they are the most polite people in the world. it goes on and on. we should all learn from c-span that knows how to ask unbiased

innocent questions just to keep an open mind to find out what makes other people tick. i think this is one of the most productive features of american culture. guest: i agree entirely. i mentioned before that i ripped off the title of the book from jordan peterson. that appealed to me format -- 41 main reason, peterson was describing how to dust for --for one main reason, peterson was describing. i had come to a place where people were more fun-loving and more curious. a very different set of rules. host: tell us more about this piece. america's booming trust deficit is the headline. the lonely crowd is getting much lonelier. guest: the idea is compared to

the recent past, we were all agreed on the fundamentals and we all trusted each other. we disagreed on the means, but the ends we were pretty much on the same page. that is much less true today. there is a sizable group of people that would like us to think this is an irredeemably terrible country. i think that's simply silly, and if you think that you not lived in other countries as the previous caller suggested. it's almost a mental health crisis of mistrust and animosity. i think we would be a better country, a happier country if we could step back and try to befriend people from different points of view. host: there's another spectator

piece. who's the that ugly american now? -- who's the ugly american now? guest: many people, particularly on the right, they will tell you this is center right country. i will say you don't -- you don't understand america. it's not quite like that. people who remember that old movie might remember the term polemicist. a medieval text that was written over another text. that is what our politics are like. we have some institutions written over a very liberal text. in other countries, liberalism is written over conservative institutions. people here might see something that looks liberal and say

canada like single-payer health care, but what they would ignore is many ways that canada is a more conservative country or the ways of france is a more conservative country. left-wing french intellectuals look at canada and its that america and its cancel culture and says this is madness. we would not stand for this in france. as for canada, there was a suggestion at one point that we adopt a canadian style immigration system and never got into the details much and it didn't go very far, but it was deemed to see -- to be something close to fascism. if you want to say that the canada -- that's canada or france is fascist, you don't know enough. america is much more liberal a place than given credit.

the ugly american is a book written in 1958 by a couple of people who condemned policy types for not understanding other countries. the people who really don't understand other countries are american liberals who failed to recognize the deep conservatism of other liberal countries. host: back to your calls. roberts in atlanta. democratic color. guest: good morning. a couple of quick points if i can. number one, i'm an attorney and i'm shocked at a professor not being himself shocked at trump's attack on the rule of law and his tendency toward fascism. my more important point is this. there are lots of factors at play here. i'm struck that you are attacking liberals for being curious when, from my point of

view, a large segment of those who support trump are curious in particular with the way the world is changing. my sense is to make america great again is we want the world in the 50's. noel bg to q, black and brown people -- no lgbtq, black and brown people in their place. as you can tell from my comments , i'm a more progressive thinker. there is a complete shock and utter angst trending toward people who support trump and the current gop, that the world is changing and i wanted to go back to make the world -- make america great again which i hear

to be 30's, 40's and 50's. not the 1860's. thank you very much. guest: i really don't think republicans want to brilliant -- to bring back slavery. i think that's an example of the problem i was describing a moment ago. there are great differences and yes there is a lot of the curiosity on either side. one difference is that the drumbeats of the media tends to be in one direction. conservatives are told this is the way it is and if you don't like it, sock it up. what the viewer is voicing was the standard line of what you get in the media generally. conservatives therefore tend to be exposed to a different point of view. i would like to think there is

good in both sides. for example, i'm very comforting that's a very comfortable with canada. there is room for that sort of thing. -- i am comfortable with canada. there is room for that sort of thing. the trump appeal represented a sense of hypocrisy on the other side. you may think that unfair, but nevertheless it is obviously there. why don't we try to put that behind us and rather than accusing the other side of wanting to return to slavery, which clearly is nonsense, i think it would be good for all sides to take a look at what the other side says about them. for conservatives, all you have to do is turn on the television. for liberals to recognize that there were 70 million americans who disagree profoundly about

certain things and they are not all in slavers. host: onto to new york. independent caller, dave. caller: i just want to make a couple of quick points. i come from a left-wing perspective, but more class warfare and i think both parties are boros debts are both on the right -- are both on the right controlled by corporate power, wall street. when donald trump came into the picture, he tore off the balance. trump threatened the situation so we had to come up with a propaganda machine.

that's where you saw cnn to disk crop -- discredit donald trump and raise a lot of issues to divide. what i think they took a playbook out of kevin phillips which he used in 70 to scare southern democrats -- to scare southern democrats and there are five black middle-class working-class -- and black middle-class working-class. a whole group of people away from donald trump so my point is

, is this intentional? this division? guest: one thing might be distressing or comforting is trump is gone and i don't think he is coming back. at the same time, as the viewer suggested, there are a whole bunch of issues out there which he raised which raised which resonated with the -- which resonated with the american people. i don't think he was a successful president with getting stuff done. i can think of a host of issues, campaign finance reform, which the reviewer -- which the viewer hinted at, should be a political -- republican issue. the issue was given away from the republicans to the democrats. i think that's silly. there are a lot of things that could be done to eliminate money and politics, sensible things

that most people would agree with. we never got there. trump said he would drain the swamp, but nothing was done about that. he said he wanted a better health care system. we did not go there. there is an unfinished agenda, and it's not it -- but it's not an agenda that should be middle-class. that should be the republican agenda. host: what you make of the demonstration so far? guest: it's tilting more progressive than i might have thought. the message from biden was elected me and all the bad stuff will go away. the bad stuff hasn't really gone away, i mean for example the riots that take place in places like portland. he seems to be to progressive progress turn.

-- progressive progression. we will see. it's a work in progress. my mind is open, but i'm skeptical that he is the answer. host: here is a text from jan in illinois that says "will professor buckley list the verifiable causes for his assertion that non-conservatives are responsible for all contemporary american social maladies? >> guest: i don't recall saying that. what i did say is on balance, it seemed to me that the threat, the threat of an curiosity came primarily from the left at this time -- of incuriosity came primarily from the left. how it would be a good thing to

identify them and make sure they lose their job. that's the sort of thing that keeps your mouth shut. you don't go over to the water cooler and shout about things. draft -- for heaven sakes, you'll never tell a joke. nothing could be more dangerous. i think most people would agree with me that the popular culture right now, by which i mean the movies the major media, are decidedly quite liberal at this point. even foreigners, even people, left wing intellectuals in france this is extraordinary. the french are rather good in general at recognizing the importance of different points of view. we don't have that much. what we have is when somebody

says there's a bit of a problem here about mistrust, they will say prove it. well i don't buy that. host: 10 or 15 minutes left with our guests. on the line is robin. >> guest: good money. i just want to say that i'm so discouraged -- good morning. i just want to say that i'm so discouraged because washington, d.c., those politicians do not care about us. they are out there in washington. they are fighting each other. that's all this is about. power and money. mr. buckley, i listen to you and i agree with you with the media. the media is destroying this country. to say that donald trump was a failure and you see when biden came in.

look at what's going on. we don't know if terrorists are coming through. they have covid. they are coming in. he hasn't gone to the border. kamala harris has not gone to the border. we are watching it on tv. i mean, come on. donald trump did that thing in israel. he tried to do a lot. peace agreement with the middle east. give him some credit, will you please? guest: i am just side -- i am duly chastised. i voted for donald trump last november. if i'd say that it was less than a successful presidency, what i meant was the promises of 2016 mostly did not get fulfilled. in part that is before that part that is because he was dealing

-- that is in part because he was dealing with the republican party where he himself was not right winged. he had two years of democratic clamors for investigations and impeachment. i guess it was not humanly possible for him to do any better. it wasn't the fulfillment of the promises with respect to draining the swamp, giving us a better health care system, fixing the immigration problem. it is an agenda and remains for republicans to try to take that up. a lot of the callers will disagree with me, but i think there is a possibility of a republican party that is a party that all people can support proudly. with all the effort to demonize united states, maybe it's time

to realize this is a great and noble country. while we've always had problems right from the beginning, we work towards correcting them. there is something noble about that. yes, it's still a great country. if it were the country being described by some on the left, you would have to wonder why anyone would want to live in such so infamous a country as that. i want to say that is nonsense. host: as we talk about curiosity in your book, curiosity and its twelve rules for life,. he'll say they are curious about what happens on january 6. they are lamenting that dissenting -- that the senate did not vote to move forward on january 6 commission. guest: i don't think what happened in january sixth was

terribly amiss tree. there is a lot of investigation going on right now in terms of prosecution. what happened is something that will come out. i would not call it an insurrection. it was not a direct attack on democracy. it was an occupation by some people. how many of that crowd? i don't know. the story will get out. republican opposition was based on the idea that the democrats would play politics with this and would use it for a widescale investigation of their political enemies. that kind of thing would be unnecessarily divisive. it is important to get the truth out because it would have to be done with a partisan investigation. host: amelia is coming from

riverdale, georgia. guest: good morning. thanks for the opportunity. with all the respect, you should practice what you preach. you have came and started off talking about the country is so divided, but everything that you have said this morning is, it's time that america started using their brain. start using some reticle thinking skills because all you have done is poisoned the less. the insults to our intelligence. conservatives, all you guys have done over the years is poison the people's minds. my heart breaks because you have pause and that you have poisoned the people's minds so bad that they are voting against their

own interest. it's all about the rush limbaugh, the hannity's, all of these guys. it's all about money and power. donald trump, his own sister says how in the world have these people voted for him. the man is sick. and for you to sit here and defend demand that all he be all throughout his rally was poison, talk about people, make sure -- make fun of disabled people, talk bad about veterans. it about time the american people started using critical skills. please people. all you said here is talking point. cancel culture. let me make one point. anytime the democrats come up, you will never hear one democrat politicians say anything negative about the republicans.

all they talk about is what they want to do to improve the country. then you want to talk about the divisiveness, you guys are the ones poisoning the people's minds. guest: i don't think i ever described people i digress -- i agree that i disagree with -- i disagree with as poisonous. the color essentially makes the argument that that kind of thinking almost comes down to a kind of illness. gosh, if only we could get away with that. god knows the democrats don't want to give app -- give that the truck. -- give that to donald trump. is it possible to conceive that the other side is not truly everyday militantly --

irredeemably evil? if that's the case, why are we in this as one country? i worry about people living in a neighborhood where they can't talk to their neighbors easily. or where they are afraid to speak up. that's something i think we need to get over. perhaps it will. can we try to work on that? host: here's a question that should get us thinking. michael and portland question. what is a difference between curiosity and wonder? are both modalities of something more fundamental? guest: i think they are the same sort of thing. wonder is a way of stimulating your curiosity. you begin with wonder. you begin with wonder and use try that and you try to pursue

it. yes they are related. this is a world of wonder, isn't it? there are extraordinary things out there. there are extraordinary people. there are all sorts of ways in which they express their curiosity. they've shown great and they've dug down on some ideas. or they become entertaining. what's the secret of a good entertainer if not the ability to understand other people? bill murray is a great comedian. it's because he understands his audience. he knows what would make us laugh. are there kinds of curiosity -- other kinds of curiosity is going into ourselves and realizing all you see is not great. the greatest kind of wonder is what happens to us upon death. maybe i'm talking to the boomers. we are beginning to see our friends and family go the way of

all flesh. as that happens, the self-satisfied boomer generation begin to wonder could that conceivably happened to me. i think they will start thinking and maybe returning to religion. i don't think there would be terribly surprising. religion itself is an expression of curiosity. pascal said people who weren't concerned about trying to answer that question, to him seemed like monsters of incuriosity. host: louis on the line from salsberry, north carolina. guest: good morning. i'm not going to be like -- caller: good morning. i'm not going to be long. my comment is since donald trump was a democrat before he became a republican and now some of the

real republicans of the gop are caught up in the mix with the ma ga people. i think if trump ran again, they should call themselves the pink party. you've got a lot of little red and a lot of white and you mix them together and it's pink. paik also stands for proud boys, and that's why -- you stated something about how it was it truly an insurrection because they didn't succeed in what they were trying to do. my understanding, and i'm sure you understand the definition of insurrection. when you got a group of people trying to turn over government.

they tried and they failed, but now you are making it seem as though they went out for a picnic. they do do harm to our capital. they did harm to the american people and i'm still hurt by that. i hope they show it every year like they do 9/11 and they need to do some kind of investigation who gave them the tour of the capital before the six and who planted those bombs. guest: i agree entirely about the first point, the big party. that's exactly right. part of trump's problem is he ran into a right wing party that did not want to do this kind of stuff that he wanted. that party is pretty much dead. that's going to be a challenge for republicans. an insurrection i would have defined as an attempt to overthrow the form of government

and supplant something else. tear down the capital, kill all the congressmen. that wasn't what was going on. something bad was going on. it would be good to know a little bit more about the coordination and how it got started. my suspicion is you will find, some bad people and some nuts behind it. how many of those people in the capital were part of that? i don't know. i don't think it's going to merit a commemoration like 9/11. it's not like 9/11 in any way. only one person was killed and that was a person that was the protester killed by a capital guard. yes, let's find out about it. i guess we will in any event because of prosecutions. host: frank buckley is author of

this book, curiosity and its twelve rules for life. one viewer wanted to know where the book art came from. guest: it's a picture by the english painter and sir walter raleigh and the idea is he's a great explorer. here he is as a kid and he is being pointed to some old sea salt and saying look what's out there. that's what gets him started. that's work kids are light that's that's what kids are like. -- that's what kids are like. this idiot kid gives his callaway for a magic being stocked and it turns out that it's -- gives his cow away for a magic beanstalk and it turns out

that it is a magic beanstalk. be curious what you are going to do about your life. don't shackle them in in any way. host: thanks very much. this weekend marks the 100th anniversary of the also race massacre. i want to let you know that tomorrow morning on this program from 8:30 a.m. till 10:00 we are going to examine the legacy and history of the tall race massacre. this important and tragic event. here is republican senator james lankford on the senate floor speaking about the tulsa race massacre. here's a portion. >> houses and businesses were burned and looted throughout the greenwood district. the attacks lasted into the night and well into the next day. for being quelled by the oklahoma city national guard.

in less than 24 hours, 30 five city blocks were destroyed by fires. 6000 african-american individuals were detained. up to 300 lives were lost. out of the 23 churches that were located in the greenwood area prior to the massacre, only 13 survived and only three were able to be rebuilt after being destroyed. paradise baptist church, mount zion baptist church and vernon ame church. it was a horrific day. 100 years later, the residence and businesses in greenwood district still carried on the legacy of resilience and determination. the past few years, i've been working at tell the story. for some, it a story they had not heard before. five years ago, i started telling the story in washington dc and when i told it, hardly

anyone knew about it. now everyone i speak to is familiar with the story. we pulled this story out of the dark pages of history and lifted it up for the nation be able to see and our nation is looking at it. in oklahoma, many people know about the terrible today. where a right answer set our nation back. i also tell people you can't understand tulsa and oklahoma unless you understand 1921. i worked to develop a curriculum to ensure future generations learn the accurate and historical events of 1921. before we start working on the community that curriculum, our school had a mandate to teach the massacre but there were no materials to teach that accurate history. there were no visuals. there was no curriculum. now there are. we have pulled all those together and made that resource free to every educator in

oklahoma. >> on memorial day, join our live conversation marking the 100th anniversary of the tulsa race massacre. our guest room that's also historical society is hannibal johnson whose latest book is black wall street 100, an american city grapples with its historical racial trauma. on c-span three. >> washington journal continues. host: we are going to sit -- we are going to spend the last half hour or so talking about the u.s. debt and deficit and whether they matter. the u.s. debt reaching 28 trillion dollars. we are reading most recently. phone numbers on the screen for

you whether you think the debt matters, how much it matters and why. you can call you can call -- you can call (202) 748-8000 if your democrat. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independence, (202) 748-8002. do deficits matter? here is the washington post. biden's first budget signals that they don't. part of the piece goes this way. resident biden waited to release his first budget until friday afternoon of a holiday weekend, a signal that the white house wasn't looking for a lot of attention on its proposal to spend $6 trillion in 2022. biden is proposing the kind of massive expansion of the federal government's role in the economy not seen since world war ii.

it would be largely funded by borrowing money. biden's budget is a clear statement that many democrats no longer worry about deficits. u.s. debt, $28 trillion. do they matter. -- do they matter? we want to get to your calls. what is the national debt? the website investor pedia explains. -- >> the federal government develops a budget -- budget deficit when it spends more money than it brings in. bills, notes and bonds. the national debt is the net accumulation of the government annual budget deficits. the treasury department raises the yields on newly issued treasury securities to attract

new investors. that reduces tax revenue because more of it goes to pay interest. borrowing becomes more difficult. as the rate offered increases, american corporations are viewed as riskier. corporations have to raise their prices to meet the increased costs of their debt. inflation ensues. as the yield on treasury securities increases, the price of buying a home increases because the mortgage lending market is directly tied to interest rates set by the federal reserve. buyers cannot afford larger mortgages. homeowners see their net worth tumble. equity investments lose appeal. it becomes more difficult to offer enough risk premium on their bonds to justify investing in the company.

as a country risks grow, it loses its session that social, economic and political clout. -- it loses its social, economic and political clout. host: debt has been part of this country's operation since its economic founding. the level of national debt spiked up significantly during president ronald reagan's tenure and subsequent presidents have continued this upward trend. that's a part of what they are writing. we are having a look at the u.s. debt clock. you can see that upper left figure there of the u.s. national debt. past $28 trillion at this point. we can keep taking a look at that while we take our first

call. the mccreight desk democrat, -- democrat caller: yes it matters a lot to me in my view. every time we get the republicans in, they run the debt way up. i remember the first debt clock because i've lived all over this country. and then we came in and got that debt down. as soon as clinton got out and bush got in and ran up huge debts. and now the debt is really out of control. i think we've got to bring the debt down. i don't think that we can put billions and billions out and it won't cause inflation. host: what have you learned over the years about what it means to people, the way we live our

lives russian mark the way that governments can -- the way we live our lives? >> caller: i was born extremely poor. i worked my way through college. i worked my way through yale. i never paid tuition because i always had scholarships, but every time that, i've had a huge family. i've lived in michigan and wisconsin. wisconsin, and texas which was the most conservative. the people were wonderful. i moved back to the east coast and now i'm back in missouri where i grew up. missouri is one of the poorest run states. we are the lowest in health care. you have an obligation to the people.

i've worked in health care all my life. i've been on social security since i was 13. i will say one thing. i never saw anything with my family or anything with my children that ever got better in a republican administration. things get good in a democratic administration. host: go ahead and finish up. caller: i have five children. i have foster children and my own children. host: david, auburn, new york. caller: this is david. i would like to say that does the debt matter. yes, it does. you are seeing the effects of it now. basic laws of economics is supply and demand.

when you increase the supply, you increase the demand. the supply is not there. that's why i've said this before. it's going to increase -- it's going to create inflation, devalue currency. it matters. i don't see how you cannot get that basic idea. host: thank you for your thoughts. pete buttigieg was on abc this week this morning talking about infrastructure, a bill with a price tag well over a trillion dollars. the republicans are trying to come in lower. >> there has certainly been major movement and a lot of good conversations. we started out with 2.2 plus trillion.

this been a lot of movement. the president has put a counter offer that moved half $1 trillion. they seem to be embracing the idea that about one trillion is appropriate. we have some concerns about things that are not in the counter offer -- counter offer. what we need to do around transit. taking care of veteran hospital infrastructure. between now and when congress comes back on june 7, this is not going to be a break for these conversations. the conversations will continue. we remain very hopeful. an action is not an option. we really are facing some serious time pressure as we look to that week following this week. host: let me reiterate the

numbers. it's a yes, no, uncertain question. does it matter? , if you think yes, (202) 748-8000. if no, (202) 748-8001. if you're not sure, (202) 748-8002. david is calling from charleston, west virginia. good morning. caller: good morning. i think we can get rid of the debt. it's just everybody with pay their taxes. when you got a multibillionaire paying $750 a year in taxes, it's time this government put a limit in deductions. 10% earning -- 10% limit on your earnings. that should take care of the national debt.

host: do you think that would work with the debt being 28 trillion trust -- 28 trillion? what about congressional spending? what about taxation? what else should be changed? caller: i think the government ought to work within their own means and i think everybody ought to pay taxes. the need to get together, but the problem with congress is it's all run by, the biggest majority of them, the lawyers and stuff making the laws and creating those loopholes. host: i was going to ask about tech session -- taxation levels. caller: i think it's appropriate that we change them to a flat 10 or 15% overall. host: onto betty.

elizabethtown, kentucky. caller: i want to say yes, debt matters. it's really strange that it only matters when rich people are asked to put out some money. if you are poor, it doesn't matter. it really matters, but it's really strange about that. when you are doing something for the good of those who are not in the upper 2% like the tax cut they gave. why can't a business that's making busy this billions of dollars per minute, why can't they pay for more. yes it matters, but let's get in the right arena. republicans seem to always have it for the poor. host: thanks for calling. we are talking about the debt reaching 28 trillion dollars and whether or not you think that matters. biden's budget projects u.s.

debt will smash world war ii record. in 2021, the u.s. debt will reach 109.7% of gdp which would blow past the previous record of 106.1%. it will then exceed the record every year over the next decade reaching 117% of gdp by 2003 -- 2031. baby boomer retirement driving up entitlement spending, biden's spending binge is exacerbating the problem. social security was in its infancy and medicare and medicaid to not even exist yet. politicians and bells party -- politicians in both parties concerted effort to pay down the war debt. both parties have steadily driven up the debt while ignoring our long-term challenges and as we emerge from

this crisis, biden is throwing all caps -- all caution to the wind. we have miriam in texas. you don't think this debt matters? caller: i don't think it matters anymore. every time we get a new president, they still keep on adding to the deficit. the thing that doesn't make sense to me as we owe so much money but yet wall street is making a lot of money. they're asking the little people to budget and to make plans and stuff like that. i also think that president biden is trying to negotiate so he is starting from atop level. i think he is going to work his way down to the metal of the

negotiation. i think he is starting to negotiate at a large amount. host: let's hear from steve in fargo, north dakota. caller: i definitely would say the deficit is a huge problem. we are following charles schwab idea that you will own nothing and you will like it. the part of the new reset is destroying the currency. i will suggest everybody that has the ability to diversify out of the dollar into precious metals. even cryptocurrency seems radical. the way we are destroying the dollar, what are we going to have here. that's about it. host: thanks for calling.

more from the washington post economist. economists, wall street investors and broader public are weighing whether this happily ever after economics is believable. -- infusion of government spinning so quickly because -- could cause unwanted inflation. sustained inflation is hard to get rid of and would require the federal reserve to try and stop it. that intern usually triggers a recession. that's from -- that in turn usually triggers a recession. caller: it matters to biden to run the debt like it is. that's all he is doing.

tell me something that he's done except for the stimulus check and people getting to draw unemployment. they think they are getting stuff for free, but they ain't getting nothing free. they are going to pay for it because he's going to raise attack -- the taxes. the only reason he's done is because nancy, chuckie boy and bernie sanders hate trunk. they all hate trump. that's all you hear -- they hate trump. he said go peaceful. and let your voices be heard. i don't think all them people up there was the people that was supposed to have went up there. i think it's because of whoever somebody else.

everybody out to know because nancy and all them, they hate him. they tried to blame everything on him. i don't think some of those people that went up into that capital was not trump supporters. if you look at the country now, and you look at the country when he was leading, you did not see raised gas, taxes. everything looks good. look at it now. money, money, money. everybody thinks that that's going to be free, but it i. i'm not worried about myself. -- but it's not. i'm not worried about myself. but i worry about my children, and mama grandchildren -- and my grandchildren. he will better wake up because

i'm telling you now. they ought to read their bible. host: thank you for calling. here is a text. the debt matters, but there are times when the government needs to spend. war, disaster. tax structure needs to make sense. here's negotiating with the white house, one of the voices negotiating with the white house. >> how do you guys define this? >> we disagree on the definition of infrastructure and we have been working with the president to bring them the physical core idea of infrastructure that we have word so hard on in the past. lead pipes, transit, airports. the new infrastructure, which we

must have everywhere, our broadband. those are great categories i think we can work together on. host: time for several more calls. whether you think it matters as we round up this sunday edition of the washington journal. here is, yellen says biden desk says biden budget to push u.s. debt higher, not inflation. -- yellen says biden budget to push u.s. debt higher, not inflation. yellen told house of white house and committee, appropriations subcommittee hearing that the white house and the treasury were closely monitoring inflation but there was still slack in the economy.

charlie is calling from trenton, new jersey. caller: how are you doing this morning. that's how are you doing this money? -- how are you doing this morning? i don't think it matters that much. i think about the unplayed debts unpaid tax cuts by -- unpaid tax cuts by bush and trump. the superrich that are allowed to run rampant and no response to billy for terra -- and no response ability for trying to pay you down. i'm just thinking they are sitting back and looking. i think of guys like norquist. he doesn't seem to be worried about the debt. he wants more tax cuts. it doesn't matter all that much if these patriots want to watch it going up and up. on other debts i had one of the

thing a wanted to mention. -- i had one other thing i want to mention. with the commission vote gone down, i wish joe would start using the power he's got and say i'm going to side with biden and passed the infrastructure bill way he wanted it originally and blow off the bipartisanship stuff for now. we can bring up the commission vote again and see if we can pass it this time. if that doesn't get passed again, then maybe he can sign off on another one of those biden plans like for the family childcare. one at a time, just pass those bills until they do show bipartisanship and starting a commission and looking into this next looking into the insurrection -- looking into the insurrection.

host: massachusetts, it's mark. what's on your mind this morning regarding the debt? caller: good morning. i hear a lot of people mention that the corporations need to pay, but anytime a corporation pays attacks they have to pass that onto their customers. either that or they lose their business. that does not make a lot of sense. they have made some comments that maybe we could help all countries pay a minimum tax. that makes some sense. one of the big problems i see is the two parties tend to use spending as gifts to buy boats. i think that's a problem as well. host: illiterate more from the washington post. they write that top white house officials are quick to emphasize

that the time is right to make these big investments now. talking about infrastructure and all these other bills. borrowing is cheap now, they argue. biden's key focus, they say, is getting millions of americans back to work quickly and ensuring the nation remains competitive with china. failing to make these investments at a time of such low interest costs would be an historic missed opportunity that would leave future generations worse off. part of the administration's shift in on deficits is political. democrats have a rare moment where they control both chambers of commerce and the white house and they are eager to go big to get as many policy priorities accomplished ahead of the midterm as possible. scott in message -- a call in

massachusetts, this is linda. good morning. caller: how are you? the debt does matter. we have to start cutting some of the pork out of all of these bills, unnecessary spending. i think 87,000 new to the irs if it was and uncalled for. we need to start cutting some of our upper offices budgets. host: linda, thank you. tim from rochester, good morning. caller: this will be quick. ask all the republicans the last president to have a surplus. have a great day. host: that was our last call for the segment on the u.s. debt reaching $28 trillion. we thank everyone for calling and we will see you back here tomorrow for another edition of

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