c-span2. >> coming up, the ceo of afghanistan veterans of america, jeremy butler, talks veteran issues. later, hannibal johnson looks at the 100th anniversary of the tulsa race massacre. you can join the conversation on facebook and twitter. "washington journal" is next. ♪ sec. blinken: good morning -- host: good morning on this memorial day monday become a tradition that goes back to the civil war. for the last 50 years since 1971, it has been an official federal holiday on the last monday in may. we will be live later at

arlington where president biden will pay tribute to those men and women who paid the ultimate sacrifice in defense of our country. we honor all of them and their families today. it is may 31 and we will begin with calls and comments on whether or not there is the right balance between military and nonmilitary spending. if you live in the eastern half of the country, (202) 748-8000. out west, (202) 748-8001. if you are a member of the military, (202) 748-8002. either current or retired military. you can send us a text message, (202) 748-8003. we are on social media @cspanwj and facebook. a lot to get to on this monday including our live coverage just after 10:00 from arlington national cemetery. at 8:30 eastern we will

commemorate the 100th anniversary of the massacre in tulsa, oklahoma. we will have more on that at 8:30 on c-span and c-span3. we want to begin with this headline from the new york times, "the white house says it will make the u.s. more competitive -- "president planning to invest in infrastructure, education, health care and would push more federal spending to its highest sustained letters -- sustained levels since the end of world war ii." lloyd austin outlining those priorities at a pentagon news conference last week. [video clip] >> the department must meet and keep pace with competitors, and if necessary, win the next fight. that's by this budget stays true to our focus on matching the pacing challenge we see from the

people's republic of china. we recognize that this is not our only challenge. the budget also invests in efforts to counter the devastating effects of climate change and be prepared for future crises like a pandemic. this also counters russia, especially in the siebel or -- cyber realm. more sophisticated sensors in our budget will help us counter an increasing ballistic missile capabilities of nations like north korea and iran. it funds a troop presence and counterterrorism capabilities in the middle east and south asia to meet the threats followed by iran and terror networks like isis, al qaeda, and al-shabaab. i am also confident this budget will help us maintain the integrated deterrent capability necessary to back up the hard work of diplomats and demonstrate our resolve all over the world.

host: that from defense secretary lloyd austin. interest rates low, the debt at $28 trillion. from reuters, "money is cheap, let us spend it." a member of the senate budget committee is lindsey graham, republican of south carolina. he had this to say about the spending proposal. [video clip] >> i want to remind the american public that the number one goal in my view of the federal government is to protect us. without national security, social security, and every other social network hangs in the balance. there are people out there who would destroy our way of life if they could end we need to make sure they can't do that. let's talk about defense spending. let's talk about threats. this is since april, we have had russian bombers test us since

march 2021 in alaska at historic levels. we had 25 chinese warplanes enter taiwan's defenses, the major escalation. there are 80,000 russian troops massed on the ukrainian border. there were 100,000, they said they had withdrawn. from somalia to molly, nigeria and mozambique, isis in that part of the world is on the rise. we had just over 80 people killed at a school in kabul because radical islamic cleric is sir trying to destroy the gains we have made in afghanistan. north korea has tried short range missiles for the first time in a year.

the chinese are trying to develop a deep water blue navy. they are building aircraft carriers. the russians are on the prowl. i fear isis and al qaeda will come back if we do not watch it. i have not mentioned anything about the current conflict between the palestinians and the israelis. this is a time of great peril. host: lindsey graham, republican of south carolina. some of your tweets already coming in, "inflation it's coming, let us spend now." lawrence in st. paul, minnesota. good morning. caller: i appreciate the opportunity. i am a firm believer that this is a false and irresponsible argument about where we spend our money. i will give you a couple of quick reasons. first, the first obligation of

the federal government is to protect the nation from invasion both foreign and domestic. national security is the priority, military is the priority. the second reason is if you look at how -- you can't fight a war based upon previous plans or technologies or previous weapons, you have to look to the future. that is why pearl harbor happened and 9/11 happened. you have to be forward thinking and quite frankly we have a volunteer military. we can't tell people that they are going to be in the military as can china. we have to spend to say -- stay ahead of the curve. i always ask people, how well

did the government of france protect the rights of citizens of france after nazi germany took over france? it gets back to what is the first role of government? it is to protect the nation through military. my original point, i think it is a false and irresponsible argument. i appreciate your time. host: thank you for the call. the question, is it the right balance between defense and nondefense spending? a tweet saying, "we are overspending on our military. we don't need to kill everyone on our planet five times over." george from circleville, ohio. caller: thanks for working the holiday. you do a good job. i want to talk about the spending. biden plus infrastructure plan

covers things other than infrastructure. these interest rates are not going to stay this low forever. $28 trillion in debt, we will never pay that back. look at social security, they keep borrowing the money from the fund, the trillions that are supposed to be in the fund, replenish that. this is stupidity on our leaders. defense is important, but our country is also crumbling inside. we have to pull the people together, do not -- what the mainstream media is doing is the opposite. host: thank you. politico.com headline, "biden's budget goes big on spending in a bid to lift the middle class. -- middle-class." kaitlyn emma joins us on the phone. guest: thanks for having me. host: let's talk about priorities. congress needs to approve the budget and often that does not happen when the president put

forth his plan. what is the white house saying are there priorities? -- guest: this is interesting in the sense that it combines the president past -- president's request for 2022. he is proposing overall funding levels for defense and nondefense spending but it is also combining his vision for infrastructure and the american families plan. it is sort of this big sweeping documentary for the president's vision outlining what he would like to spend on when it comes to federal agencies and also highways, childcare, education, public health, climate change, and to your point, you are discussing this interplay between defense and nondefense spending, the biden administration beliefs domestic programs and education programs and public health and climate

change and childcare and highways have been underfunded for too long in comparison to the amount of money that has been spent on the pentagon. this budget, over the course of 10 years, seeks to correct that and spend more money on those programs compared to military funding. like you said, it is something that is rarely enacted, this is a sweeping vision for the president, essentially a wish list for spending. host: the president is getting pushback from republicans, including lindsey graham who says the pentagon budget needs to be increased. how is the administration dealing with that? guest: he has not only getting pushback from republicans, he is getting pushback from democrats. this issue with defense spending is one that is difficult for the biden administration to navigate. he is getting criticism from

republicans who believe that flat funding the military is untenable. it is not something that is even an option. there are some democrats who feel the same way. there district has defense interests and that is something that she really believes in, that the pentagon needs an adequate funding. you have democrats who are also saying that even the numbers proposed are too high. essentially they believe that the pentagon is bloated, it needs to undergo major financial audit, it could substantially tolerate billions of dollars less. it would be interesting to see how democrats take this budget and ultimately decide to fulfill

that. i spoke to chairman john yarmuth the other day, he told reporters he didn't think it was going to be possible for democrats to pass a budget in the house because of the defense number. it is difficult. in lieu of that, they may have to do something with the numbers , rather than vote on the budget they may just have to set overall funding levels and avoid this messy roll call vote in the house where everybody has to go on the record about defense funding. caitlin emma from politico, i want to share with you this headline from the washington post, "democrats seek to speed up infrastructure based on comments made over the weekend by pete buttigieg." he appeared on fox news sunday and was asked about the middle-class tax increase to pay for all of this. [video clip] >> right now in this moment we

have a decision to make. what are we going to do with tax rates? the president is saying, let us not charge middle-class americans more. middle-class americans are paying enough. let's make sure that corporations and the wealthy are paying their share. we believe that is going to raise the kind of revenue we need to fund the proposals the president has put forward. look at the american jobs plan, the infrastructure vision the president put out. the entire thing is paid for across 15 years. by year 16, deficit goes down and do not with one penny from the middle-class. host: let's parse two parts of what the secretary said over the weekend, because the spending would be eight years, the payback would be 15 years, and there has been discussion that middle-class families would pay a price to fund the transportation and infrastructure programs. guest: what is interesting about some of the plants the president has outlined, which are plans,

they are heavily dependent on tax reform, raising taxes, tax increases in order to pay it. what is interesting about what secretary buttigieg said was that these plans would be paid for within 15 years. normally you are operating within a 10 year budget window, so a 15 euro -- a 15 year window is interesting. it's not just how these things are scored. there has been discussion about -- for example, the president's proposed corporate tax rate, wanting to increase that to 28%. a lot of democrats are not comfortable with that. the white house has shown an openness to may be moving somewhere on that figure. that is the state of infrastructure talks.

essentially what this budget does is it gives democrats the go ahead to use what is called the budget reconciliation progress -- process to pass these plans without republican support. unlike what we saw with pandemic aid this year where they used the same process and said to republicans, we are going to do this without you, and they did it quickly, they are still talking in the senate. these talks are still ongoing, especially when it comes to infrastructure. it is this very slow going process. tax reform -- it remains to be seen what role this will play in paying for it because a lot of folks feel the president's plans are never going to survive in congress, or a lot of the plan so far is dependent on beefing up irs enforcement and bringing in new revenue that way. some folks think that is an unreliable source of money.

it remains to be seen how that ultimately plays out on capitol hill. host: congress is in recess for memorial day. the senate is back next week. the house is not back until june 14, flag day. guest: we are in this weird moment where this budget just came out, and kind of everybody is back in their districts. a lot of folks are on vacation. both parties have set this unofficial deadline of having something together on infrastructure by july 4. that is a very short time. chuck schumer said that no matter what, democrats will be moving something in july. regardless of the vehicle. that could be a reconciliation bill where democrats use this budget measure to deploy this special process they can use the

past things without republicans, or maybe they will be -- or there will be a bipartisan bill. but for the next few weeks, we are twiddling our thumbs while talks have been behind the scenes and we will have to see how quickly congress decides to move because this unofficial deadline is rapidly approaching. host: we will follow your reporting. politico.com, caitlin emma covers the budget reconciliation process. we thank you for being with us. guest: thank you. host: this is the scene at arlington national cemetery. memorial day began in 1865, unofficially. the first official memorial day was in may 1868 at arlington national cemetery. the tomb of the unknown. the ceremony to take place including laying a wreath

honoring our heroes who paid the ultimate price. live coverage on c-span, c-span radio, c-span.org at 10:00 eastern. in the next hour we to the veterans of iraq and afghanistan and later we look at what happened 100 years ago in tulsa, oklahoma. our phone lines are open. (202) 748-8000 if you live in the eastern half of the country. mounted and pacific, (202) 748-8001. if you are a military veteran, current or retired, (202) 748-8002. our question, defense versus nondefense spending priorities. this is from audrey in philadelphia. "our defense budget is a threat to national security. our existential threats or climate change and nuclear weapons. the pentagon budget should be

cut in half." matt from miami, good morning. caller: how are you? host: good. caller: i was a member of the -- program during the bush presidency. are you familiar with any programs available to high school students? host: not this one. do tell. caller: basically, they make available to young kids from suburbs to be able to participate in the legal process. we ran into scenarios of military budgets. during that time, they spoke about the defense budget. host: thanks for the call. see you in new jersey saying, "we don't want to leave

ourselves vulnerable, but when police departments are outfitted with military surplus it is an indication we are overspending. and what about our veterans? wrong to entice people to join without taking care of them." sam in michigan, good morning. caller: i just wanted to remind the listeners that it was not too long ago that general milley said in a budget hearing that if congress does not spend more on diplomacy they will have to spend more on bullets. i think we should spend more on diplomacy. host: stephen on twitter saying, "we have what eisenhower said in 1960, a military industrial, way over budget. we are bankrupt already and cannot afford it. we are wasting our money when should we -- when we should be helping the poor. let's bring back the draft."

host: mitch mcconnell of kentucky. [video clip] >> supply chains, espionage, intellectual property, those are all important topics, but all of the policy tweaks in the world would not amount to much help if we lose our military edge with respect to china. soft power is not too good without hard power to back it up. the chinese communist party understands this clearly. according to one watchdog, it has increased military investments by 76% over the last decade. china has increased its military spending by 76% over the last decade. the same data shows that our own u.s. defense spending fell 10% over that period, thanks to the approach of the last democratic

administration, now president biden has signaled he wants to cut military spending. exactly the wrong approach. host: that from mitch mcconnell. our next call is from louisville, kentucky. caller: top of the morning to you. i want to express my thoughts about when folks -- especially so-called experts -- talk about national defense infrastructure, social institutions. they need to start using common sense. for example, emma who is on the program -- who was on the program, she was talking about difficult subject matter.

to talk so fast about it, and to try to follow her reasoning and rationale -- what i'm trying to say is, you have to use common sense and you really have to start telling the truth. china, they are manufacturing military robots as soldiers. they are experimenting with humans and animals and robots. that is part of their military. host: thanks. it's good to mike in north carolina. caller: happy memorial day to america. defense spending, wonderful topic.

it is the only basic mandate within the united states constitution as a responsibility of the federal government. most of the things we spend money on today is well-intentioned -- as well-intentioned as they might have been were never intended to be the responsibility of the federal government. education, health care, roads and bridges, stuff like that. that was all left in the domain of the states and local -- governments. as per the constitution, the enumerated powers clause. to put a stamp on that, the 10th amendment. we can argue all day long, and we have for the last century as to the extent of our responsibilities for defense. we can't escape the corner we have backed ourselves into by virtue of our good nature and

compassion. world war i, world war ii left us as a major superpower. the end of the cold war left us as the only standing sole superpower. we are the cop of the world and have been since the end of world war ii. i don't like it. it's expensive. we are stretched thin, but we have also experienced the greatest stretch of peace and prosperity the world has ever known. have there been brush wars? vietnam, korea, central america, africa, the middle east -- ok, yes. but compared to the wholesale slaughter of tens of millions from world war i and world war ii, stretching back -- i mean, it has been a good ride. i will finish on -- were with china -- i am not the most

educated guy, but i have a little bit of an education. war with china seems inevitable. were with the soviet union was never inevitable because they always were just -- i am going to steal this quote -- they are a gas station with an army. host: let me go back to china, you say war? you mean combat war? caller: yeah. we are in a low-grade war with them vis-a-vis cyber attacks. we can debate all day long. did covid come from a lab? was it intentional? we will leave it at that. host: from the new york times, inserting the -- uncertainty in the israeli government. benjamin netanyahu may be out.

an uneasy alliance may give israel new leadership to avoid what would otherwise have been another election. mike freeman has this tweet, "your question points to a major flaw in our education. there are no federal standards. that has retarded our ability to address our problems. also is an example. several states were never taught that slavery was an article of secession. we will focus on tulsa and about one hour, 8:30 eastern on washington journal and live on c-span3. we are also live at arlington national cemetery on this memorial day as the president will pay tribute to the men and women who paid the ultimate sacrifice. this is a live view, the sun shining after a weekend of rain in the nation's capitol. -- nation's capital. the president was in delaware

for another ceremony, that is on our website. karen from boca raton, good morning. caller: i know that china has built islands in the china sea. they eventually want to take over taiwan. they have stolen our intellectual property. they have subsidized our companies there. we do have to worry about china, and a war. the reason teresa heinz kerry and john kerry moved from nantucket to martha's vineyard is because the wind turbines were noisy and killing the birds. michelle and barack obama have an 11 $.75 million house in hagerstown, but it is surrounded by water. my question to the audience, how

could there possibly be global warming when the earth is 4.6 billion years old? we have had ice ages, we've through the animal age, the neanderthal age, we have come quite far. as far as defense goes, it is very important because iran is not our friend. they have never been. they are funding hamas and hezbollah. we have to be very careful. i think the abraham accords was probably the best idea ever. it starts small and keeps going to every country until we get an agreement for a freedom for all and free-trade. host: thank you. this is from john, "all spending

is for defense including education, infrastructure, health, fiscal oversight and regulatory matters." you can continue to send us text messages or tweets @cspanwj. texas democrats walking out of the house chamber in an effort to stop a debate on sweeping republican backed elections bills. some of the details pointing out democrats left the house in protest late last night in order to kill that bill. the democrats unusual protest of breaking quorum tapped only three other times in the history of texas, this is the fourth, that lawmakers have broken a quorum to protest the passage of the bill. the last time it happened was in 2003. marcus from philadelphia, good morning. caller: good morning steve, good to see you back. host: thank you. caller: first time i've talked to you since your return, good

to see you back. anyway. i think i have a different take on this. what is the definition of national defense? the death toll from the virus is closing in on 600,000, which are civil war type numbers. we have had 22 million lose their jobs due to covid. to me, national defense should be more than tanks and bullets. i think we need to concentrate a little more on more conventional -- or, nonconventional sides of national defense such as health care against pandemics, battles against things like cyber attacks.

host: thanks for the call. this is from patricia on facebook, "three different -- 3% defense and 97% nondefense. we have millions of weapons we will never use. we could use universal health care, welfare, education. this is a headline from cnbc.com, "biden budget includes his big-ticket spending plans." ray joins us from raleigh, north carolina. caller: we always compare china to what we do in america. [indiscernible] why do we let chinese people come to america and buy houses?

host: john, "wrong question again. congress spends too much on items they shouldn't be spending on." the chair of the senate budget committee is bernie sanders. this is what he had to say at a recent budget committee hearing. [video clip] >> it is true that when it comes to the department of defense, an agency with a budget of $740 billion, by far the largest spending category in our discretionary budget, consuming more than half of all discretionary spending. in my view, the time is overdue for us to take a hard look at the enormous amount of waste, the cost overruns, the fraud and financial mismanagement that has

plagued the department of defense and the military-industrial complex for decades. today, that is what we will be doing. at a time when we have so many unmet needs in america, we've got to ask ourselves why we are spending more than -- more on the military than the next 12 nations combined? why is it that the united states of america is now spending more on the military in real inflationary adjusted dollars than we did at the height of the cold war, or the wars of vietnam and korea? why is it the pentagon remains the only agency in the federal government that cannot pass an independent audit 30 years after congress required? why is it that half of the $740

billion goes not to our troops -- many think it does, it doesn't -- but to defense contractors, while virtually all of them have paid huge fines for misconduct and fraud? while making massive profits on those contracts. host: bernie sanders. it is just past the bottom of the hour, the question is, the right balance between defense and nondefense spending. we will turn our attention to the veterans of iraq and afghanistan, and at 10:00 we have live coverage of president biden at arlington national cemetery where the first memorial day took place back in 1868. russ from california has this, " overspending is like a runaway train. how many more multimillion jets, tanks and automatic weapons do we need?

why is the navy in spain? as a veteran, i have posed this question to many and they have shrugged their shoulders. -- shoulders." caller: good morning. my comment is for the people that think that we've got to spend for another carrier in this nonsense. our roads are falling apart and our bridges are crumbling, because, you know, one in five kids go to bed hungry, spend some of that money on us. on the people. i am a navy guy. i was on a carrier during the iran crisis with jimmy carter as president.

we tried to do our best. fix these roads, 60's bridges. half a million people are dead because of the trump's incompetence. these people are still looking for people to hate. host: florida-georgia girl has this tweet, "i am all for necessary spending on the military but why waste money on contracts for tanks and ships when we apparently need to hire hackers to protect infrastructure mexico -- infrastructure?" caller: thank you for taking my call. i have a two question thing, the billions that they do put out these contracts to supply and protect our nation, there is certain value to that, but every

four years when another president administration comes in, this is like a conversation as the previous predecessor, we lost the strength of the money that win in from that administration, there is no progress of the strengthening and security of our nation with our military strength. two, i.e. understand that there is conflict should know we spend the money, but there is recently this grand acceptance of the billions of dollars that they sent to mars. some probe on that planet, for what reason? it is taking away may be the financial money that can help our military on top of our inner structures in our nation that can provide jobs and help people . it is a substantial amount of

money and it is almost people just wondering why every presidency we are talking about a budget by the military. when 9/11 happened, we dropped the ball. to defend this nation. with the strength we have nuclear weapons and we did not do it. host: thank you for the call. "washington journal is the wrong forum to discuss pentagon spending reductions. partisans from both parties are pro-war. change my mind." the president putting forth his budget plan at just over $6 trillion from the bureau of engraving and printing where the money is made here in washington, d.c. mike in west springfield, good morning. caller: i believe that if we

make minor to moderate cuts in defense, it will be the golden opportunity for china and russia to fulfill their goals of being the number one and two economic superpowers. i would predict that in some point in time, they will form an alliance and adopt a program to it -- to rebuild their military and possibly include north korea. when we broadcast of the world that we are even thinking of making moderate or minor cuts in defense -- when you look at our gross national product, our national defense is not that much. this is what i wanted to comment on. i think it is a big mistake. host: the issue that came up with a former pentagon official dating back to the reagan

administration, in this line of questioning from the chair of the senate budget committee. [video clip] sen. sanders: it is a dangerous world. but, just spending huge amounts of money does not make our military more effective. we can be wasting huge amounts of money and making it less effective. my question to you was simple, are -- you mentioned during the reagan years defense spending was cut. do you believe, given the enormous problems facing our country in terms of infrastructure, poverty, etc., do you believe we can maintain the kind of strong military we need, but can cut defense spending? >> definitely i do. no matter how much you spend on defense, you can't by perfect security, you are always going to make choices.

therefore, my experience in government and out of government , i wrote my doctoral dissertation on the role of the military and the defense budget process, basically is, you do the best you can with the number you have. therefore, if you told me today to go back to the pentagon and you've got $700 billion, i think i could provide security and deal with -- remember, the deficit is also a threat to national security. therefore, if you are cutting defense to help deal with the deficit, you are actually improving national security. i think there is no magic number. this number is historically high. nobody pays much attention to -- we used to have military retirement in there with the numbers you are comparing. it is not there anymore. $100 billion that the pentagon

doesn't have to spend, but the taxpayer still spends it. host: from the senate budget committee hearing, a member of the reagan white house. here is a tweet saying, "i am all for cutting costs. first step, congressional representatives and franking privileges." caller: i am happy to hear that the u.s. troops are leaving afghanistan in the trump negotiated settlement that president biden is following through on. i am happy that former president trump cleaned up -- is cleaning up the mess that was started by george w. bush in the initial invasion of afghanistan. but there ought to be a peace dividend from leaving afghanistan. if you check on the website,

costsofwar.com, you can see how much money has been rolling out for these inconsequential war that was not amenable to start with. host: thank you. the books by hannibal johnson include, "black wall street 100: an american city grapples with racial trauma," "black wall street: the story of the greenwood district." we will learn more about exactly what happened back in 1921. the death toll estimated as high as 300. dozens of homes and businesses totally destroyed by white activists led by the ku klux klan. more on that in less than an hour. it is rearing tonight on c-span

three at 8:00 p.m. eastern. louis joins us from reidsville, wisconsin. good morning. caller: -- host: are you with us? good morning. caller: held? host: go ahead. we lost lloyd. another moment with congressman ken -- he talked about the defense budget being put forth by president biden, is it enough? [video clip] >> i've heard some say that the budget increase of $11 billion, but when you factor in inflation, it is actually about a 0.4% cut. when you consider the readiness challenges facing all of our services and the pace by which china is developing military capability, this request is insufficient.

i believe that to maintain our war fighting age, we must -- by 3%-three .5% above what secretary maddox set forth in his defense strategy. i suspect we will have another defense strategy reflecting these new budget numbers. it is becoming more clear every day that the covid-19 virus came from a lab in wuhan, china. china was aware of that from the beginning. that is who we are dealing with. china's budget is going up by double digits. they have significantly more ships, bombers, fighters and missiles in the south pacific. than us including our allies. i would say you are right that china is not yet hour. worldwide military capability, but do they exceed our capability in the south china sea?

>> my assessment is that they do not. first of all, you have heard me say before that china is permanently and will remain our pacing challenge going forward. you have seen me do a number of -- continue to focus the department on the china challenge. we established a task force that is about to complete its work and will inform our efforts going forward and help us create synergies and eliminate duplication in a more efficiently -- and more efficiently focus us on the china challenge. china has no allies. we have many, around the world. we certainly have strong allies and partners in the indo pacific region. that gives us greater capacity

and greater capability. host: lloyd austin, defense secretary. former army general out lighting the president's budget plan for the military. the question we are asking come of the balance between defense and nondefense spending. this is from dan on facebook, "the right balance is when you spend less than you take in as revenue. -- take in as revenue." caller: good morning. host: good. caller: hiroshima, nagasaki, beijing. host: we will leave it there. jay from washington, d.c. good morning. caller: good to hear you back -- good to see you back. my comment to these people calling in talking about a hot war with china don't realize that if we got into a hot war with china, this economy would go to hell.

even though those iphones and people -- made in china. i think a hot war with china would be the worst case scenario. host: from the new york times and the wall street journal, a breakdown of the numbers from the president's spending proposal. 8.2 trillion dollars total by 2031. the president's fiscal plan by next year's $6 trillion, $1.5 trillion in discretionary spending, which is up by more than $118 billion, an eight point 4% increase from the previous fiscal year and adds about one point trillion dollars in fiscal spending -- nondefense spending would rise about 16%. defense spending would increase 1.7%. congresswoman betty mccollum, chair of the appropriations defense subcommittee with this

on military spending. [video clip] >> president biden's budget request proposes $715 billion, $11 billion more than the enacted level. to put that in perspective, in his last year in office, former president trump only requested $800 million. six years ago, the dod received $506 billion total. which means the department's budget has increased $144 billion in six years. no matter how much we provide our armed forces, some will always argue it is not enough. there will always be new and increasingly expensive technologies to develop. other countries will always be developing technologies they believe are strategically advantageous to them. the job of appropriators is to see the full picture.

as much attention to the top line for defense receives, we must not considered the defense number in a vacuum. investments in diplomacy and developments in our economy are vital to national security. there is no military might hear -- miter -- than the united states of america. the key to successful competition with russia and china is through a combination of economics, diplomacy and military strength. one by itself is not enough. host: democrat betty mccollum. tweets, david has this, "we should spend more to wage peace than war." let me go back to kevin in south carolina. caller: can you hear me?

host: sure can. caller: one of my big questions is, under the new administration , as a veteran, what is going to happen to the vets? we should be defending our vets that have defended us and fought for us. are we going to go back to rats in walter reed, are we going to be able to go to outside doctors? what is going to the happened to the people what's already lost limbs and loved ones. what is going to happen to them? people out of think about that, don't forget the people that's already been there. host: this is from kurt on twitter, "china is not going to war with their cash cow. they own us." "china has nukes too.

these idiots that want to fight them are idiots." ken points out -- doesn't seem to have the right balance, too much is spent on illegal aliens. he says, even before the freeloaders commit to all who gave their lives and freedom, saluting them. thanks for your calls and comments, tweets, we will continue the conversation on twitter @cspanwj or facebook.com/c-span. coming up, ceo of the iraq and afghanistan veterans of america jeremy butler is here to discuss his organization and how they pay tribute to those who not only served in iraq and afghanistan, but family members who have paid the ultimate price. later, 100 years ago on may 31, 1921, racial tensions in tulsa, oklahoma leading to a mob of white men marching on the city's african-american neighborhood,

called black wall street." 300 killed, 35 blocks destroyed. here on washington journal we take a look back at exactly what happened on this date, may 31, 1921. we are back in a moment. ♪ >> today, join our live conversation marking the 100th anniversary of the tulsa massacre. our guests from the tulsa historical society and museum, hannibal johnson, whose latest book is "black wall street 100." watch live today at 8:30 a.m. eastern on washington journal and american history tv on c-span3.

>> the tech industry is often about the future. it is future oriented. politics is about the present. valid concerns people have in the present about what technology is going to mean for them. i am not keen on bashing congress. i think that any future technology has to answer a lot of concerns about what its impact is going to be on people and communities and the environment. those are understandable questions. >> the power of the tech industry and its impact with chamber of progress founder adam kovach of edge -- tonight on c-span two. >> c-span shop -- c-spanshop.org. browse to see what is new. your purchase will support our nonprofit operations and you have time to order the congressional directory with contact information for members

of congress and the biden administration. c-spanshop.org. host: joining us from new york is jeremy butler, navy veteran and ceo of the iraq and afghanistan veterans of america on this memorial day monday. we appreciate you being with us. guest: i appreciate you having me. host: thank you for your service. let's begin with the deadline, july 1, u.s. troops moving out of afghanistan. from your standpoint, what does that mean for the u.s., the military and the veterans? >> -- guest: i love starting that way. most of us would agree that it is overdue. 20 years of being there, we have lost a lot of men and women, spent a lot of money and it is clear that there is a limit on what we can do. we are not the best at nation building on that is what it has

become. it is overdue time for the u.s. to withdraw service members. we should still remain engaged as a country, and we certainly owe a debt to those allies that served with us. the afghan translators and interpreters, other staff. without which we truly would have been a complete failure. we owe them, we promised them visas, we promised we would take care of them and we need to make sure we follow through on that quickly. host: that came up yesterday on cnn's state of the union. mike mccall was asked about how we deal with afghan residents who have helped us and what the u.s. needs to do moving forward. [video clip] >> -- the nonprofit group, he says that these afghans and their families should be immediately evacuated to guam. after they are safe in guam, the u.s. can deal with their visas.

do you support that? >> i do think they need to be protected. general millie said we need to keep our promises. we have a moral responsibility and obligation to protect them. who are these people? 18,000 have applied for special immigrant visas because they served with our special forces, with our troops in afghanistan. these interpreters put their lives on the line. our guys could not have done the job without them. the old saying, no man left behind, no one left behind is a fine organization with special operators who have worked with these people. for us to leave them behind only to be slaughtered by the taliban which is looking more like what is going to happen, would be unconscionable. when the state department says it is going to take a year or two to process diseases -- and remember, there are probably about 50,000 of them -- we can't

leave them. as the military is talking about withdrawing in july, they are going to withdraw earlier than anticipated and that is when they are going to be in the host: that is from cnn's "state of the union." to that point, what are your biggest concerns, jeremy butler? guest: they address them pretty well. time is of the essence. this is not a new problem. from the beginning, we have promised those from the beginning that they would be granted visas and are they and their families would be granted visas -- and they and their families would not be in danger. this has been an ongoing problem. we are behind in processing these visas. rick is now with the fact that

the taliban is making advances, it is incredibly urgent now more than ever. it is important that we speed up the process. if it is not guam, evacuating them to some safe location where we can process the visas, go through necessary background checks, things like that. something to db -- something needs to be done. host: our guest is a naval officer. one of your colleagues have this op-ed. he wrote the following quote " military veterans suffer from ptsd and chronic pain at more than twice the national average. one in five iraq and afghanistan veterans will express ptsd or depression. we speak with them every day and hear their stories both in the face of the enemy when they are

serving and against the pain and trauma that haunts them. studies repeatedly show that cannabis can help. recent study from rice university found that 80% of texans who used cannabis do for for chronic pain or to treat ptsd." can you elaborate? guest: absolutely. this is something my organization has been focused on. not just cannabis but alternative therapies. cannabis is one in which many veterans have turned to an found great relief work traditional narcotics have not only failed them but many times made the situation worse. cannabis is something we hear not just from our generation of veterans, but the american

legion had a survey showing 90% of their leadership supported the use of cannabis. it is known it is effective, safe, and an incredible alternative to opioids and traditional medicines we have been trying to use on our veterans. it is something that is frustrating because it is still a federal crime and something the v.a. cannot prescribe. veterans locally in california or in the states that it is legal at the medical level, they are able to use it. we need a fair system so veterans are not getting one message from the v.a. and another from their local provider. host: jeremy butler is the ceo of the iraq and afghanistan veterans of america. he is joining us from new york. he earned his masters from the u.s. naval college.

the number to call is 202-748-8000 for veterans and 202-748-8001 for everyone else. caller: we have to keep america up-to-date with space-age technology. we have russia and china trying to defeat us with new technology. you got to take care of the events. -- take care of the vets. you're spending too much on what equipment and not enough on veterans. why cannot we balance it out? guest: i missed the previous

discussion so i don't know what was addressed the fact is that the president proposed a budget that shows increases for the department, increases for the period of utterance affairs. the money is -- i should not say being allocated because congress has the final say but i think that is happening. when you get into the details, there is a real desire to put investment into the technological side of things. you need people to operate that technology. i think we are seeing investment on the dod side. an investment is definitely being made to address the problems i a v.a. -- iava and others are trying to address.

you cannot allocate money to send warriors to fight and then not to carve them when they get home -- and then not take care of them when they get home. we have major bills in the house and senate being discussed right now. the only pushback coming from congress is that some are too expensive. we consider that to be shameful. if you sent these people to work, you need to pay for their health care when they come home. host: this is a map that gives you a sense of how much is being spent by the u.s. compared to other countries. the u.s. spending $770 billion. china is second. russia is just over six to $1 billion. japan nearly $50 billion. south korea is 35 billion dollars and the u.k. is $60 billion. william is joining us from alabama, another veteran.

what branch did you serve in, larry? caller: the army. i have been calling c-span since 1980 46 was -- since 1984 when i was discharged. that the secretary of -- did not show up on washington journal. i wish and i hope president biden would send this rick perry of v.a. -- would send the secretary of v.a. over here. since we hired the secretary of the v.a., taxpayers are paying the money. why not speak to somebody you hired? i would like to thank, mr.

butler, for coming forward to these veterans and talking with them and letting them know -- not only the disabled veterans and the p.o.w., but your organization is trying to help these veterans. steve, i am glad you are back. i think it was wrong the way they treated you, but that is my opinion. host: thank you for your service. jeremy butler, we will get a response. guest: i love the fact that he is a long time c-span and paying attention to the secretary at the v.a. because that is important. what i can say is that he has been open and transparent, not only with my organization. he called me when he was first nominated and we have been in touch with him on a regular

basis. it is correct with the caller was saying that we needed transparency from the v.a. and we needed frequent dialogue so they understand what veterans are dealing with. i think we are seeing that. the secretary, the president, the administration seems to have an open dialogue with the veteran community. there will always be some disagreement on what priorities will be but i think we are moving in the right direction to increase transparency and to see the secretary traveling around the country to speak to veterans. host: if you're joining us on c-span radio, we are talking with jeremy butler who is a veteran of the navy and we talking about veterans. especially for those who served in iraq and afghanistan. john is joining us in virginia. caller: can you hear me okay? host: yes we can. caller: thank you for working on memorial day and appreciate your staff.

12 months ago you were talking about memorial day so i'm glad to be back on the subject. in -- i am an iraq campaign veteran. i have been in the military since 1974 and still in the military as a civilian. i spent 50 years with the department of defense. one thing i find very annoying and that is that the american legion and the veterans of foreign wars are not the doing their jobs as far as helping veterans or working on issues. i dealt with these guys. it usually falls on deaf ears. especially with vietnam. the iraq campaign medal -- do you know that was canceled by the navy in 2019?

we need to bring that back. i would like to see your organization lobby and work with our elected leaders to adjust this wrong and have the iraq campaign medal come back. they also canceled the vietnam service medal, too. that is something i noticed. i get exhausted with the american legion and the veterans of foreign wars in regards to taking care of vets. host: john, thank you. we believe that there. thank you for your call and for your service. guest: i don't want to speak for the american legion and vfw, but we work closely with them. there is a coalition of veterans groups that work together across issues to try to amplify everything you're working on. with the vfw and american legion, memberships that are --

organizations that are membership driven, what they work on is determined by votes from their members. iava, we take a survey through membership but we have more than focus on emerging problems. i will give credit to the legion, vfw, all of these organizations because i think everyone is adapting to a changing environment where there are more veterans and more veterans serving organizations. not just getting involved in washington, d.c. but across the country. the best thing for us is if we work together collaboratively. we are seeing that across the board. i wish i could speak more specifically to your point about the campaign metals. i will look into that. i am a navy guy myself but i did not know about that. i will look into the. host: yesterday, president biden

paying tribute to our soldiers, sailors, and pilots and also today at arlington cemetery. it is always available at c-span.org. next is jasper from memphis, tennessee. caller: good morning. i met veteran of the korean war. we go to the v.a. and they do their research and they turned around and found out your military records were lost. are you working on anything like that for veterans? host: thank you, jasper. mr. butler, your response? caller: -- guest: that is one of the biggest things refocusing on.

there are two pieces of legislation that focus on what you are talking about. the illness is so many illnesses -- that so many veterans came back with, most related to toxic exposure. going back to the first gulf war, a lot of things around depleted uranium and many other exposures to toxic substances that resulted in long-term, chronic conditions that veterans are having to deal with. he pieces of legislation we are getting worse -- we are dealing with would overhaul the system and dictate to the v.a. if you served in any of these countries and you have come down with one of these medical conditions, then the v.a. is responsible for your health care. the fight is how long of a list of medical conditions will be included. that is where i alluded coming down to costs. we have members of congress that will be pushing back because

they want to see that list made as short as possible because the longer the list, the greater the cost. our point is it does not matter how long they list or how great the cost, if you were sickened because of your military service is been your -- then the v.a.'s responsibility is to take care of you. please go to iava.org, we are talking a lot about it. we just put out a big op-ed, myself and others, advocating to the others -- advocating to the v.a. to come together and make this legislation as copperheads of as possible. congress has worked in a piecemeal fashion to address agent orange for veterans, we don't want to go through that again. we want one bipartisan piece of legislation. as for medical records, that is incredibly frustrating.

the best thing to do is to reach out to the v.a.. they can do the research to find it but you can also reach out to iava's own helpline -- phone helpline. you can call or fill out a form and we can help you make sure your medical records are getting tracked down. we can help with anything, that is what we are therefore. we help veterans and their family members deal with issues. host: let me go to honoring -- "it would provide health care benefits to as many as 3.5 million veterans believed to have been exposed to toxic material. under the measure, the v.a. would presume that war veterans were exposed to armpits if they developed respiratory illnesses after deployments in iraq, afghanistan, and other countries that house u.s. troops." john stewart in washington, d.c.

with this last week. [video clip] >> we asked these groups what would fix this problem and they said we need a presumption of the various cancers and respiratory illnesses and immuno deficient doors orders that are occurring in the veterans' population and we need a way around the veterans benefits association because that is the access to care. we have to get in for a different door because we are not able to get. we set that is so clear cut -- they had an incredibly clear eyed vision of what it would take to fix this problem. in the fascinating part was great, let's work on that. they said let's hold on a second and they started to talk about what they think they could get.

it reminded us that congress's reticence and inaction has caused our veterans' community to negotiate against itself. to negotiate against the need they have and they needed their population has against the pursestrings that the v.a. and congress were holding over them. that is why i am finally encouraged. when we see the hard work they are doing and all these congresspeople are doing and the bills coming out today and will come out of the senate, they are finally recognizing that the consequence of war is not another line item in the budget you can ignore. host: that is from activist and comedian jon stewart. you can get more information on iava.org. let's get back to your phone calls.

mark in pennsylvania, good morning. you are on the air with jeremy butler. caller: good morning. i am a from iraq and veteran -- iraq and afghanistan. i am disappointed you are supporting another duct tail policy in iraq. what do you think is going to happen to these young ladies in afghanistan relieve? host: jimmy butler, your response -- jeremy butler, your response? guest: i am with you, it is scary what will happen locally. the problem is you have to look at what is our original mission going into afghanistan. i agree not is -- i agree not enough is being done to safeguard women and so many things we fought for. the flipside is you have to look at how long we have been fighting there, the large number

of troops and money we have spent their and what we have gained. what we are not in the business of is nationbuilding. we have learned that lesson the hard way. there's plenty of room for disagreement on whether or not we should be withdrawing from afghanistan. at the end of the day, if you look at how long we have fought their -- thought there, the amount we have poured in the re, you have to look at that with what we achieved by doubling down on that investment. i understand your feelings of discomfort that we are withdrawing. but in my opinion, it is an overdue decision. host: from canton, new hampshire. james, good morning. caller: good morning.

i am responding to what you did say, mr. butler, about the consequences of withdrawal. i'm a veteran of vietnam and at that time i was trained in the medical unit, where vietnam is -- where vietnamese were sent over here to -- i assume that an awful lot of them were in terrible straits once the enemy had taken over. i hate to see that occurring

again with iraq, afghanistan, or whatever subsequent and -- whatever subsequent endangerment they do have. this is what concerns me. host: thank you, james. jeremy butler? caller: -- guest: i could not quite hear everything but i think what people need to realize is that our engagement in countries like iraq and afghanistan does not begin and end with a military campaign. that is probably the wrong place to focus on. we will remain engaged in those countries, certainly militarily, we will just not be based in those countries. we have to do a lot of our work through nonmilitary facets.

through the u.n., through u.s. peacekeeping missions, through other ways of investing and diplomacy. that is where we will probably make the long-term gains. it is not at the end of the barrel of a gun. we can support the afghan military and police departments, it does not mean we have to have troops on the ground. host: i want to go back to this headline from your website that a recent dod study on the sexual assault in the military. what have you learned from your perspective and how bad is it? guest: it is bad. i am glad you brought this up because this is maybe the second of the two top issues we are dealing with right now. in terms of actually coming very close to making real substantive change. the department of defense has been fighting the sexual assault and sexual harassment problem in the military for years. we have made little to no

progress and that has been proven time and again. we worked with senator gillibrand and other allies to bring about a change in the way the department of defense deals with sexual assault cases in the military. give them to trained prosecutors that understand the intricacies of these types of cases and will remove any sense of commanders -- issues they may have with the accused, with the defendants and things like that. this has gained traction and is now supported by the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and is widely supported. it is supported by joni ernst, a combat veteran herself. it is called the military injustice improvement act. it has 65 cosponsors in the senate which is more than enough to pass this bill. senator gillibrand has tried to

bring this up for a vote and it has been blocked by senator jack greve. it is really important, they want to give the pentagon more time to do studies on this. we have shown time and again that studies show the same thing. were not going to move the needle on stopping sexual harassment in the military. this bill will do that and it will bring much needed change. host: this is the headline from npr, the bill to combat sexual assault in the military has votes to pass. the senate is in recess but will be back next week. ed is joining us from jacksonville, florida. thank you for your service. caller: yes, i am a veteran of vietnam, afghanistan, and iraq. i'm asking your guest if you would support a bill that will allow congressman to sit in the

v.a. facility to talk to veterans. it would allow a congressman to utilize the v.a. facility to meet with veterans. host: jimmy butler? -- jeremy butler? are you familiar? guest: i am familiar. the number of issues we are contending with our vast and overwhelming. this is one of them. it makes sense that members of congress should be able to use v.a. facilities when it is not taking away space needed for health care and when there is any opportunity for members of congress to meet with their constituents, with veterans, with their family members to hear about the issues those families have in getting access to the v.a.. this stemmed from something that happened roughly one year or longer than that now.

congress was kicked out of doing just this, using some additional, unused office space within a v.a. to meet with constituents. these numbers are represented. represent these veterans -- they represent these veterans in their district. they should have an easy way to meet with these veterans to find ways to increase support to veterans. there is a lot of unused space. politics played a role in kicking out this member of congress and resulting in legislation to say this is a no-brainer and let's give members of congress the ability to use unused office space within v.a. facilities to meet with their constituents. host: we begin our conversation with the u.s. pullout of afghanistan, about 2500 troops had been there the spring. the official pullout today is this -- is july 1. we are 25% in not pullout.

one of those photographs of troops and incremental leaving that country. from smyrna, tennessee. caller: i was wondering if your organization is associated with the veterans for peace? have you heard of veterans for peace? guest: i don't think i have heard of that one but i will look into them. if we are and we missed it, i apologize. host: thank you for the call. what do you view your is priority and your number one challenge? guest: right now it is the toxic exposure and the sexual assault in the military. we are at the precipice were congress can make sweeping, huge, impactful change for so many veterans and military for the long-term. these two pieces of legislation, if we can get the military and

just missed improvement and prevention act and whatever of the two bills, one in the house and one in the senate, addressing toxic exposures -- if we can get those to a satisfactory point, we can get those passed this year. we are at a tipping point where massive change can happen and congress needs to hear from citizens across the country to say this needs to happen. please go to iava.org to tell congress we need to support this legislation. those remain our biggest priorities. host: jeremy butler is joining us from new york. he is the ceo of iraq and afghanistan veterans of america. the website is iava.org. thank you for being with us. guest: thank you. host: coming up, we turn our attention to tulsa, oklahoma. 100 years ago from today, racial

tensions leading to a mob of white men, some members of the kkk, watching into the city -- marching into the city's predominantly black area of the city. 300 people were killed, city blocks were destroyed, 1000 homes and businesses. we will explore the legacy and the consequences of the tulsa race massacre. joining us in just a moment from the historical society is author and attorney hannibal johnson. his latest book is called "black wall street 100." we were to share with you a portion of powerful testimony earlier this month on capitol hill. viola fletcher, the oldest known living survivor of the massacre is now 107 years old. this is what she told members of congress. [video clip] >> on may 31, 1921, i went to

bed in greenwood. i fell asleep and felt that night was rich not just in terms of wealth but in culture, heritage, and my family had a beautiful home. we had great neighbors and i had friends to play with. i felt safe. i had everything a child could need. i had a bright future ahead of me. greenwood had given me the chance to truly make it in this country. in a few hours, all of that was gone. the night of the massacre, i was awakened by my family. my parents and five siblings were there. i was told we had to leave and that was it. i will never forget the violence. it looks like a mob when he left

my home. i still see black men being shot , black bodies lying in the street. i still smell smoke and see fire. i still see black businesses being burned. i still hear airplanes flying overhead. i hear the screams. i have lived through the massacre every day. our country may forget this history but i cannot. i will not. other survivors do not. our survivors do not. when my family was forced to leave tulsa, i lost my chance at an education. i never finished school past the fourth grade. i have never made much money in my country, state, and city. despite this, i spent time supporting the war effort in the shipyards of california.

most of my life i was a domestic workers serving white families. i never made much money. to this day, i can barely afford my everyday needs. all the while, the city of tulsa has unjust deadly -- has unjustly used the names and stories of victims like me to enrich white allies to the 30's -- i continue to live in poverty. i am 107 years old and have never seen justice. i pray that one day i will. host: outside in tulsa, oklahoma

, at the historical society, a look back at the events 100 years ago today. the headline from the tulsa world "100 years later, it is hard to know much about the 37 confirmed dead. at least -- the families of at least two of them vowed to never forget." hannibal johnson will be joining us, he is the author of "lack wall street 100" and also "black wall street." mr. johnson, thank you for joining us. guest: good morning. host: walk us through the events as they unfolded over an 18 hour period on may the first, 1921 -- on may 31, 1921. guest: the initial event involved two teenagers, a black

boy and a white girl who operated an elevator. the event unfolds on monday, may 30, 1921. take roland -- roland is working and he has to use a restroom, he knows one is available at the downtown drexel building. he walks over to the building, boards the elevator being operated by sarah page. something happened on the elevator, we don't know exactly what it was. something that caused the elevator to jerk or lurch. dirk brushed up against her, she overreacted and began screaming. he was frightened. the elevator landed back in the lobby and he fled. sarah page, exited deal elevator . she was comforted by a store clerk by a local -- a store clerk from a local store.

she told him her story about being assaulted. he called the police. sarah page would later retract or recant that story. she refused to cooperate with prosecutors who arrested roland. that might have been the end of the story if it had not been for the intervention of the tulsa tribune which the next day, being may 31, 1921, published any article about -- published an article claiming roland had attempted to rape sarah page in the elevator. the article went out of its way to make sarah page look virtuous. as a corollary to make roland

look at villainous. it had its desired impact. a crowd of white men began to gather on the lawn of the courthouse. roland was being held in the jail. the man began to talk about possibly lynching him. black men got wind of dylan's talk, several dozen black men gathered, some of them world war i veterans, many armed vowing to protect roland. the white mob continued to swell, numbering in the thousands. not surprisingly, as the black men approached, words were exchanged, a white man tried to take a black man's gun, and according to one of the survivors, all hell broke loose. that is the beginning of the tulsa race massacre which ultimately devastated the

thriving greenwood community. black men put up a rigorous defense initially against this onslaught. the white mob spilled across the frisco tracks, burning, looting, and shooting people. some of these people were deputized by local law enforcement. we know members of the mob prevented the tulsa fire department from putting out the fires. at the end of the day, we believe between 100 and 300 people, most of them black, lost their lives. hundreds more were injured, property damage was $1.5 million which would be in the tens of millions of dollars today. at least 1250 homes in the black community were destroyed as well as a number of other establishments. some people in the black

community were rounded up and taken to internment centers. ostensibly for their own protection, but it left the community defenseless to those who would come in and burn and loot. host: the tulsa world has some photographs of what that would look like. i should point out as we begin our conversation that we will show some photographs that you might find disturbing. we feel it is important to get a sense of exactly what happened. i wanted to jump in and ask you about this district called black wall street. what can you tell us about greenwood? guest: black wall street is an moniker attached to the business sector of the greenwood community . it was more like a black main street. they were mom and pop operations, commercial establishments, restaurants,

grocery stores, hotels, movie theaters, dance halls, confectionery's, coupled with service providers like doctors, lawyers, and accountants. a commercial district like you might find in many places across the nation. this was a segregated black community, it was a community of necessity because black folks were not able to engage with the regular economy. they faced an economic tour that created their oasis in the greenwood district. host: the death has come under some speculation. there are 37 confirmed deaths but you said 100 to 300, why such a variance? guest: the official death toll is 37. most historians and others who have studied this incident believe the death toll was much higher, between 100 and 300.

there were reports to that effect even at the time, even the report by the red cross. the reason for the discrepancy involves a number of factors. we know a number of people were injured mortally and left town and died elsewhere. some were buried without record. the actual record-keeping was suspect in that period. we know that there are oral histories and other documentation that indicate there are mass graves somewhere in tulsa. there is a mass graves investigation underway even as we speak. host: we are dividing our phone lines. if you're a current or former resident of tulsa, oklahoma, 202-748-8000. for all others, 202-748-8001. . . .+++j

tragedy of oklahoma but it seems there has been a renewed renaissance for trying to study this, something that may not have been studied 50 or 75 years ago. guest: a number of people talk about a conspiracy of silence with respect to this history. conspiracy is a strong word suggesting agreement. i don't know if we can prove agreement, but there are psychological dynamics that have kept this history under wraps. when the massacre happened in 1921, tulsa was on an upward trajectory to becoming the oil capital of the world. the city fathers had any interest in minimizing if not erasing this history. sectors of the community, there was shame that this incident had been allowed to unfold on what

people considered to be a cosmopolitan, forward-looking city. in the black community, there was posttraumatic stress disorder, anxiety, and fear. fear that such an event could occur and anxiety about sharing that information with family. in fact, knowing this information -- that knowing this kind of information could somehow hobble them. there were a number of bricks -- breaks in terms of the knowledge of this history. ed wheeler published an article about this history in a black magazine. he received death threats. people told him they should not -- people told him he should not be talking about this. another released a book called

"death of a promised land." it was his doctoral distant -- his doctoral dissertation at duke. the major opening became -- image opening came -- they held hearings, met regularly, released april -- released a report. that drew international attention and opened the floodgates in terms of the beginning of curricular reform. host: we want to thank you for being with us and we want to thank the tulsa historical society for providing us with a lot of resources we are using to tell the story of what happened century ago, may 31, 1921. two weeks after that incidence, the mayor had this statement to the commissioners looking into the events in greenwood. i want you to react to this

because i notice in your book. "let the blame for this uprising why right where it belongs, on those armed negroes and their followers who started this trouble and to instigated it. any persons who seek to put half the blame on the white people are wrong and should be told so." that is from june 14, 1921. your reaction? guest: a pretty amazing statement blaming the black community for its own demise. post-massacre, several dozen like men were indicted for the offense of inciting a riot. it is victim blaming, blame shifting. unfortunately, it is characteristic of race relations of that. that's of race relations -- of

race relations of that period. the systemic racial situations were across the u.s. host: you are in tulsa oklahoma, there had been security threats over the weekend. president biden will be there tomorrow. how is the community remembering the horrors of what happened 100 years ago? guest: there are a lot of things going on in terms of remembrance. there is a legacy fest this weekend, a festival celebrating black history and culture and celebrating the greenwood history. tonight, whether permit -- tonight, weather permitting, we are expecting a candlelight vigil which begins around 10:30, around the time the first shots were fired on may 31.

also on june 2 we are opening greenwood rising which is a world-class history center going up on the corner of greenwood and orchard to tell the entire narrative of the greenwood community. it is important to people in the community we not just fixate on the massacre, that we understand that we are talking about a community. it consisted of people. these were african-american people who created this incredible community. they nurtured and sustained the community during the -- through the massacre. it thrived into the 40's and 50's and early on into the 60's. the events are marking the massacre, the events we commemorate today, but also black wall street, that

entrepreneurial character that existed in the community. host: which is the title of your new book, "black wall street 100." our guest will be with us for the next 75 minutes here on c-span's washington journal and on c-span3's history tv. we have a phone line for those who are current or former residents of tulsa, oklahoma, 202-748-8000. for the rest, 202-748-8001. nancy is on the phone from new jersey. caller: i feel that white people and their attitude will never change and their desire is to promote white supremacy. i think black people need to use the roadmap that white people used and treat them the same way. if they're going to forget our history when we get in the

majority, we are going to be rewriting their history. if they can do the same thing and look in our faces and say we can't -- we did not do that on purpose and we have to show proof that they had intention to do this. we know that white people did the entire time and they are trying to write out that there was an intention to do a lot of things. but also, reparations. what do you think about paying reparations for all the businesses destroyed and how black people were affected all of these years? thank you. host: hannibal johnson, your response to that sentiment? guest: first, i would say that this history is all of our history. it is impossible to understand american history if you leave

out the totality of the experiences of american people, including black people, native people, and other people whose history has been marginalized. we have done a poor job of teaching what should be american history which is a people's history of the united states. it belongs to all of us, we needed to all know it and learn its lessons. the caller mentioned the concept of reparations. for me, i think of it in a denotative sense. it means to make amends or to repair the damage. once we look at those definitions, let's think about what are the best mechanisms to repair the damage or make amends? many people think only about cash reparations to identified individuals, survivors or descendants.

there is no question that cash reparations to survivors are morally justified. the question is more of a practical question of how best to get those reparations from the comparable sources -- from the culpable sources. in tulsa, we are looking at the city and the state and so forth. the routes that has been chosen is primarily the legal route. i think that is the route least likely to pay fruit. reparations for racial trauma similar to events like those and it also have come by way of the legislative process. the 1923 rosewood massacre, victims of that massacre and descendants received reparations from florida legislature. people of japanese ancestry interned during world war ii received reparations from congress. it seems the legislative route

is the most likely to yield cash representations. cash for positions -- cash reparations. cash reparations cannot be the be-all and all. my focus has been largely on repairing the damage done in the educational process by not including this information in the curriculum. we worked closely with the oklahoma department of education , even the governor's office to help get a curriculum change that this is top across generations. if we really want change in racial relations, we have to understand that race and racism are chronic issues and we have to impact each successful generation. how do we do that? we included this information in textbooks. other types of reparations include investments. this could be targeted investments in the black community so that we repair

economic damage done to the black wall street. other type of -- other types of investments include investments in education. museums, parks, history centers like greenwood rising which will teach this history in a robust way and draw a through line from history antidepressant. -- and the present. part of the goal is to have patrons understand this history, learn its lessons, and challenge them to apply those lessons to current regional challenges like black lives matter, black community and police relations, health care disparities, and on and on. any honest reckoning -- a honest reckoning without history is part of american citizenship. host: our guest is joining us from inside the tulsa oklahoma

historical society. he studied at the university of arkansas. teresa is joining us from tulsa, oklahoma. good morning. caller: my name is teresa. in 1989 or 1990, senator maxine horner assigned me because of me and my husband's expertise to the greenwood task force. during that period of time, we heard hunting stories because people were interviewed -- we heard hunting stories because people were interviewed and there were more people alive during that time. one of the stories that haunts me is the story of a woman giving birth and in the exodus where people were having to

leave, they put the baby in a man's shoebox. somehow in the craziness and fear, that shoebox got lost. we have moved to california and now we are back and we have been here a year -- we had moved to california and now we are back and we have been here a year. i want to get involved with greenwood again. host: thank you for sharing your story with us. we will get a response. hannibal johnson? guest: what a moving story. i remember the story of the woman who gave birth during the massacre and the baby was put in a shoebox. there are so many horrific stories around the 1921 race massacre.

that is the reason we need to understand this history. there are mistakes that have been made that we cannot allow to happen again. why do we study the holocaust? we study it because horrific things were perpetrated that should never happen again. we study incidents like the massacre here because we need to understand that our shared humanity is a universal imperative. everybody needs to understand the imperative of recognizing, validating the dignity and worth of each and every other human being on this planet. we have lessons in our history that we ignore at our own peril. host: we have been showing paragraphs -- showing photographs courtesy of the historical center of tulsa, oklahoma. we have a view of what greenwood looks like today to give an idea of what -- any idea of how to

transformed. give us any idea of what is ahead. guest: district of greenwood is very different than if you're looking at photos pre-massacre. it is a business community a couple of decades after the massacre, early to mid 1940's. well over 200 black owned business as talismans in that community. it decline in the 60's -- in the 1960's and 1980's because of a lack of a mentorship progress. today, the greenwood community is an integrated community. you will find residences, you will find entertainment venues, cultural venues, religious venues, educational venues.

it is an eclectic community, shared space that is integrated. much of the land is no longer owned by african-americans. the community is working to establish a new identity. black wall street 201. and working through the race massacre centennial commission to preserve the history. there is a view that leveraging and preserving the history of economics and entrepreneurship is imperative. the questions are the details. how do we do that in an integrated world? how do we cultivate economics and entrepreneurship and honor the rich traditions of

african-american participation and cultivation of those things. how do we target african-american business and potential entrepreneurs and bring them back into that community. for me, it is about helping people understand this legacy of economics and entrepreneurship created by black folks in the greenwood district with an understanding that black art printers and business people are no longer constrained geographically to that area. with technology, the black wall street mindset can be deployed anywhere. it is about understanding the history and the role models we have and using them, leveraging him in ways that create a new cadre of businesswomen and businessmen and entrepreneurs. host: the tulsa world has a number of interesting stories about this anniversary, including the story of brady, a

city leader and community leader and a member of the kkk. he is believed to be one of the leaders in the massacre and the sentence of brady were quoted in the article. there is a first-hand account from williams, he was 16 at the time when this took place. the audio is courtesy of the museum and historical society in tulsa, oklahoma. here is my she remembers. --what he remembers. [video clip] >> they never did catch the dad. he got out as far as pine street . one of his business associates

took a gun to his house. they came down to the hallway and bared me out. did not know where mama was. i ran into him downtown. i saw her and i said mama. that was something. none of us knew where the other was. host: that is from william dan whitworth -- dan with -- dan firth -- william. guest: yes. he is the son of john williams.

she and other people really help us understand these events. the survivor testimonials --many of the survivors were recorded when the commission met. the local historian met with, interviewed and recorded all of the living survivors that she could find, as a part of that commission work. those histories are archived at the historical society and are very helpful to understanding the tragedies and psychological dynamics going on in the minds of the victims of the massacre. they talked about not knowing where his parents were. he was 16 years old and does not

know where his parents are. it is a sense of uncertainty, anxiety and fear. here is what he said back in 1977, past of his own oral history. >> i saw a guy in my mother's upstairs where we lived, had her handbag, and she had one of these leopard coats, fur coat, pretty expensive you know. you could see the belt off of it, hanging -- >> how did this affect your parents? do you remember them talking about it? >> not much, because we lived in a tent for a few months until they built back the living quarters upstairs.

i never did hear them talk about it much. i was more interested in myself, doing school, football team, wondering if they're going to have a team. we were getting ready to have the junior/senior prom, and they burned down all the halls, the dance halls where you could have it. i know they must have felt it was a tough fight. they finally built them back. as i said, this recession set in. they couldn't make the payments. >> hannibal johnson, as you hear that firsthand account from w.d. williams and we look at the pictures, what type of arsenal did these mobs use that would cause so much damage so quickly? >> one of the tragedies with

regard to the way the massacre unfolded was that local law enforcement charged with protecting all citizens in tulsa actually de facto sided with the white mob, deputizing many people in the mob and assisting many people in the white mob when they looted pawn shops and sporting goods stores for weapons and munitions. so these were people who were fully armed. there was a machine gun actually used in the massacre as well. not surprisingly, the black community was overmatched in terms of the weaponry the mob was able to secure to use to destroy the community. the other interesting and perhaps unique thing with regard to the massacre is that airplanes were used. the official version of events

is that airplanes were used for reconnaissance. they were looking and surveying what was going on in the ground. but there is ample evidence, certainly credible eyewitness evidence and other evidence that planes were used both to strafe the community with bullets, somebody firing a gun from the planes, and that planes were used to drop incendiary devices on the community. this might have been dynamite. it might have been molotov cocktails with nitroglycerin or kerosene. it's uncertain. but there's compelling evidence that planes were used in this massacre to help destroy the community. >> if you're interested and unable to travel to tulsa, oklahoma, you can go to the website, tulsahistory.org, and they provide a timeline of events as it all unfolded 100

years ago today. 18 hours from the evening of may 31st and concluding the next day on june 1st. president biden will be in oklahoma, in tulsa to commemorate this anniversary. larry is joining us, a former resident of tulsa. go ahead, please. >> caller: yes, sir. my grandfather, les wilson worked in the oil field for texaco. there were hundreds of oil rigs around tulsa. a lot of equipment they used on the oil rigs come in two-by-sixes, two by eights, two by tens, two by 12s. a lot of people, white and african-americans built huts around tulsa and worked in the oil field. my grandfather and his friend -- his friend was going to get married. they went to one of the largest hotels right there next to where this riot started, and my grandfather and his friend went out on the porch, and i

understand the porch was off the ground probably 20, 25 feet, a big porch with a lot of steps. his friend's wife went upstairs to clean up, and they were going to go out to eat. they went back on the porch because people come in hotels said there was firing going on down the street. my grandfather and his friend got on the porch. all of a sudden, a bullet came between him and killed a man standing next to them. anyway, my grandfather related this story to me all my life. he went on to run a big oil drilling business which is still in business, worked in 12 states. he was very saddened by all of this. and when you related about the airplanes, my grandfather told me, they went out there, there was a lot of dynamite they used on the oil rigs, and they broke into the dynamite houses, got on

the airplanes and flew over this community and kept dropping dynamite. everything your author is telling you actually happened. i was trying to think what all happened. there was a lot of those airplanes -- oh, the thing my grandfather told me was, the story going around when the riot started was a white girl had come home, and she was all disheveled. he said what happened? and she was out with another white man they said. anyway, she lied and said that an african-american had attacked her, and that story went around. and later she recanted that story, according to my grandfather. and he was around tulsa for years working for texaco.

anyway, he claims that she -- this white girl started all this mess by some of the lies she told. but anyway, there were some other things my grandfather told me. his whole life -- and i saw the short movie of that. i talked to a white author that had a book on this story, and i talked to him years ago and told him some of the things. but a lot of the white people in oklahoma sent a lot of money and other things to help the black community. i saw some of the people had really nice african-american stores, i mean first rate and they destroyed all of them which was really sad. there was some more things he told me. i'm taking up all of your time. >> larry, we appreciate your

first-hand account. how old are you today, by the way? >> caller: i'm 81. all my kin people worked in oil fields. my grandmother is from haskel which is right outside tulsa. >> we'll leave it there. thank you very much for your call and the firsthand account. i want to pick up on one point he made. he talked about how the community responded. how did official tulsa, oklahoma, city leaders respond, and the red cross and others during the initial days after the massacre? >> well, the american red cross provided relief post massacre. it was led by a fellow named maurice willows sent in from st. louis. by all accounts, black and white, the red cross did a wonderful job. in fact, the red cross was called angels of mercy because of all the work that they did in providing medical care, food, shelter, clothing, et cetera. a couple of downtown white

churches that are still here were awful instrumental in providing post massacre relief. first presbyterian church and holy family cathedral. there were a number of stories about individuals in the white community who provided support post mass sker and during the massacre as well. for example, some african-american women were domestics in white homes in south tulsa. some of those women were sheltered in those homes as the massacre unfolded because people for whom they worked heard about what was going on and wanted to protect them, safeguard them over on the south side of tulsa. the city of tulsa for its part was not helpful immediately post massacre. there were a number of promises made about reparations, a number of people talking in grand ways about repairing the damage and

making the community whole. most of those promises were ultimately broken. the city of tulsa even tried to extend its fire code into the greenwood district in such a way that would make rebuilding for most african-americans cost prohibitive. so that was challenged by attorney b.c. franklin, the father of the imminent historian dr. john hope franklin. finally, we've talked a little bit about the tulsa tribune, the daily afternoon newspaper. three days after the massacre, on june 4th, 1921, the tribune published an editorial about the possible rebuilding. it was called "it must not be again." the uneducated, the people who were not knowledgeable about this history might think the tribune was publishing an article condemning the violence against the african-american community, essentially saying that sort of violence and chaos should not be allowed in tulsa

again. that's not what the editorial was. it referred to the black community in really derogatory terms and called it a cesspool and said "it must not be again." the black community should not be rebuilt, should not be resurrected. that's the kind of hostility, open and obvious hostility faced by the black community here in tulsa in 1921, even post massacre. the fact that they were able to rebound and rebuild their community is yet another testament to the indomitable human spirit that was endemic among the founders of the greenwood community. that's something we must leverage going forward, that human spirit. >> this is the headline from "the black dispatch," "a lot, arson and murder, not belgium, but the greenwood street in tulsa, oklahoma.

a white woman, seven years old at the time, courtesy of the tulsa historical museum and society with an oral history of exactly what she remembers as her family harbored some of the african-american people who lived in the greenwood district and were scared. >> the colored women who had been doing our washing for years showed up at our house on wednesday, just scared today. my mother said, lilly, what's the matter? this isn't your day to come to word. she said ms. waters, can you hide me? all the buildings in town are being set fire to. she brought her in, poured her a cup of coffee and told her to

sit down. she never did quit shaking. my mother figured out that the only place that she was sure of that nobody would probably look was down through a trap door that went into our basement which was covered generally by a rug. she gave lilly and this little girl she had with her some blankets and pillows and some food and water. and she stayed down in that place the whole day. about 3:00, 4:00 in the afternoon, there were two men standing there that said they were police officers. they wanted to know if the woman that worked here had come to work that morning. mother said she doesn't work here on wednesdays. they said, well, i bet she's here. she said well, come in and look. they came in and searched every closet and every room in the

entire house. and then they went out and searched the garage. then they came back. mother said, well, do you want to come back in and search some more. they said no, i guess not. so they went off. >> that firsthand account from 1978. again, our thanks to the tulsa historical society and museum, part of the oral histories that have been conducted, those that remember what happened on may 31st, 1921. let's get back to your phone calls. allan is joining us from durham, north carolina. you're next with hannibal johnson. good morning. >> caller: good morning, sir. thank you for providing us this golden information about our culture and what we've done. i have conservative values, but i'm an independent. i listen and i'm kind of a news junkie. i'm a historian. i love to hear about people of color and african-american history and what we've contributed.

conservatives always talk about exceptionalism. well, that greenwood community is exceptional. this is what we're talking about, having the opportunity to -- this is what they call strapping up your boot straps from 18 something since they were released, they came all the way to oklahoma and made it a great kind of new york wall street. due to jealousy and due to mean power, they hurt african-americans and then hid it for several years. those individuals who survived and their families, we need to honor them and we need -- america needs to apologize to them, just like they did the japanese in camps, bombing them from above. that's terrorism, and won't even talk about the car accident, the

people that got killed as far as being hung. this is american history that needs to be brought out. that's why the critical race theory and what's going on in school today needs to be taught. white people are afraid -- not all. i'm not prejudice at all. not all. i am pro african-american people of color. >> alan, thank you. i want to go back because he mentioned the genesis of this, and you talked about it a moment ago. what does this headline that you indicated earlier tell you about where tulsa was in 1921 and the country. "nab negro for attacking girl in an elevator." that building, of course, the drexel building. >> he does write good points. one of the things we need to understand about the massacre in tulsa, it was emblematic of the racial violence going on in the united states more generally. tulsa in 1921 comes on the heel

of a major outbreak of so-called race riots, mostly assaults on black communities in 1919. in 1919 alone there were over two dozen major events called race riots throughout the united states in places as far flung as new york and philadelphia, washington, d.c., omaha, nebraska, chicago, elaine, arkansas, long view, texas and on and on and on. in addition, during that same period, lynching was prolific throughout the united states. even here in oklahoma, between oklahoma statehood, 1907, and 1920, the year just prior to the massacre in 1921, there were 33 lynchings in oklahoma. 27 of those lynching victims were black. so we have these twin terrors in the united states during this

period. race riots or so-called race riots on the one hand and lynching, domestic terrorism on the other. we're living in this period in a sort of racial crucible in which black people essentially have no place to run, no safe haven given the span of institutional systemic racism of the worst kind. >> again, we want to share with you some of these photographs. we realize they are disturbing. so if it does bother, just be forewarned, but just some of the scenes immediately after what happened. this from june 1st, 1921, 100 years ago. our guest is hannibal johnson, he's written this, black wall street, american city grapples with racial trauma. in the aftermath, the dead estimated at 100. now today estimated at over 300,

"the city is quiet." bill is joining us from across the atlantic in england. good afternoon to you and thank you for joining in on the conversation. >> caller: how can we stop these horrible massacres in the future, how can we stop them? i know the question has been asked before. >> thank you for weighing in. hannibal johnson, how can we stop this? >> well, we stop such atrocious incidents from happening in the future by understanding our past. we've got to do a better job of making sure we understand the violence and the racial trauma that is part of our past and teach it in such a way that really engenders compassion and empathy in succeeding

generations. it's really the $64,000 question, and it really has everything to do with what i would consider to be diversity, equity and inclusion. making sure people understand history is part of that. making sure people have meaningful engagement with people who don't look like them or don't come from the same cultural group or religious group or other dimensions of diversity. making sure there's this cross-fertilization. that's part of it. making sure that our work spaces and our personal lives invest in diversity, equity and inclusion. all those efforts are essential if we're not to repeat the mistakes of the past. again, it boils down to something i said earlier. it really is about the universal imperative of understanding our

shared humanity, because if we understand our shared humanity, if each and every one of us is committed to that, then such incidents will not recur because we'll respect the personhood, the dignity and the worth of each and every other individual living among us. racism is the antithesis of that. >> and, of course, that story is told in great detail at the museum in tulsa, oklahoma, where you are. but at what point did this story become more public knowledge? was there a turning point? >> the turning point, i believe, was again the issuance of the report from the oklahoma commission to study the tulsa race massacre of 1921. that report came out in february of 2001. it drew international attention, and it also caused in oklahoma much more conversation to be had

about curriculum. tulsa public schools over the last 20 years has done a really great job in working to incorporate this history in meaningful ways. tulsa public schools is just unveiling a new curricular initiative whereby this history is going to be taught at every grade level, k-12, in an age appropriate way, and it's going to be taught in an interdisciplinary way. it's not just confined to american history, not just confined to oklahoma history, but it will be infused in other disciplines as well, social studies, language arts, et cetera, et cetera. that really is the way to integrate this history into the curriculum in ways that feel natural and authentic such that kids will, in succeeding generations, understand their

past and understand that universal imperative that i keep referring to of recognizing our shared humanity. >> let's get back to our viewers and listeners. bill is on the phone from new york city. we thank you for waiting. you're on the air. >> caller: good morning, and through for the discussion. i watch "the journal" every morning, as much as i can. i believe a solution is reached from a real system of justice that's needed, meaning guaranteeing that no one is mistreated and guaranteeing that those who need the most help get the most constructive help. that's what i would say just in simple form for a solution. but i would like to ask the guest today, how did this incident affect the futures of the people, these native-born black americans and their descendants? and is this a story that is common for native black in america? >> bill, thank you.

we'll get a response. >> to the point about the effects of this incident on descendants or successive generations, there are a number of things we need to consider. one is the economics. this event was a disrupter in terms of the ability for black folks to make intergenerational transfers of wealth. that's a really important point because we talk often about the wealth gap, the fact that black wealth in the united states typically is about one-tenth that of white wealth. why is that? part of the reason is these disrupters. obviously slavery is the origin story in terms of disruption, uncompensated labor. but the massacre in tulsa obliterated an economically viable and successful black community. there were millionaires in the

greenwood district, people who lost everything and, therefore, were not able to transfer that wealth intergenerationally. so it has an ongoing effect. the other legacy of the massacre, in my estimation, is a gulf of distrust between the black community and the white community, particularly with respect to white authority figures. remember i mentioned earlier that law enforcement actually deputized people in the white mob who overran the greenwood community. and then we ask today why is it people in the black community have lower levels of trust for law enforcement. well, that's part of the answer. part of the answer is history, historical treatment. again, in that way and many other ways, what happened in tulsa in 1921 is emblematic of american history around race. these kinds of racial incidents,

including the so-called race riots happened all across the country. lynching was widespread. between the collapse of reconstruction in 1877 and the peak of the civil rights movement in 1965, there were close to 5,000 lynchings in america. most of the victims were black. so we have this incredible legacy of trauma in the black community, failures on the part of government and other organized structures to provide for and protect members of the black community as were protected and provided for, members of the white community. so it's understandable that because we have led the wounds of our ancestors fester for so long, because we haven't had the courage to confront them forthrightly, that race relations still suffer in the

united states. and some of the incidents of race and racism still play out in ways that are similar to the way they played out 100 years ago. >> we should point out we're getting a lot of tweets, to basically summarize from our viewers and listeners, that this was not an isolated incident, that there were evidence of it across the country, not only in tulsa, oklahoma. this is the martial law declared by the governor of oklahoma in 1921. the governor at the time was government j.b.a. robert sochblt eli is a native of tulsa, oklahoma, joining us next on the air. go ahead, please. >> caller: hi. good morning, dr. johnson. good to see you this morning. can you explain to the public the allotment of the friedman, particularly the creek friedman which was $1,943,000 acres, much of it around the tulsa area, and

the cherokee friedman allotments and who they were that contributed to the great wealth of the black community such as greenwood and the other all-black towns in eastern oklahoma that was formerly indian territory. often it's left out of the conversation, and one of your callers earlier was talking about the oil and gas industry and how much of their land was part of that oil and gas industry as well as the importance of agriculture in the state's economy back in those days. it's really missing in the kks of why greenwood was wealthy, why tulsa was wealthy. we often leave that out, and i would like you to go in -- you've written about this -- and bring that to the attention of the public. thank you. >> eli, thanks for adding your voice to the conversation. we should also point out that the description of what this area looked like is on display

inside the historical society museum in tulsa. we'll show you those pictures and get your response, hannibal johnson, to his point. >> eli makes a number of great points. first, let's back up several steps and talk about the fact that there are relations between native americans and african-americans that we don't discuss nearly enough. we know about the so-called trails of tears, the forced migrations of the five civilized tribes out of the southeastern united states into what was then indian territory in the 1830s and 1840s, but we don't talk about the fact that all five of those tribes enslaved black people. we don't talk about the fact that on those trails of tears were people of african ancestry as members of those tribes, many enslaved, some free. so that's how people of african

ancestry got to oklahoma in the first instance, with the five civilized tribes, really important. we don't talk about the fact that the fact that the tribes officially sided with the confederacy during the civil war. the confederacy lost that war, by the way, and those tribes executed treaties with the federal government post civil war, generally called the treaties of 1866. in those treaties, those tribes with the exception of the chickasaws agreed to accept their formerly enslaved africans as tribal members. that's really significant because ultimately those black tribal members were receive land at lotments, parcells of land. land in the late 1800s, early 1900s really was an accession to wealth. these people called freed men got their 40 acres or sometimes

more. other people of african ancestry -- we talk about 40 acres and a mule and all that, those people never actually got that. these freedmen, black people who were tribal members, received land allotments. land is an accession to wealth. some of them created some of the all-black towns in oklahoma. oklahoma had more all-black towns than any other state in the union. the land allotments actually allowed these people relative wealth such that they could support successful business communities like the greenwood district which actually sits on land that once belonged to both cherokees and muskogee creek citizens. those freedmen, those people who were members of the muss koeg key creek nation, the cherokee nation and so forth, they are a large part of why the greenwood district became successful and was wealthy and was known

throughout the nation as the negro wall street of america, and later black wall street. so we need to really do a better job of understanding and educating people about the relationships between and among demographic groups. in oklahoma the rich history of oklahoma, which i think is some of the most robust history of any state in the union really comes from the intersection of three demographic groups, european americans, native americans and african-americans. it's those relationships, one to another, between and among those groups that really makes this fascinating, fascinating history. thank you, eli for the question. >> and we're talking about that here on c-span's "washington journal" and c-span3's american history tv another 25 minutes as we reflect what happened 100 years ago today in tulsa, oklahoma. our guest is hannibal johnson.

his books include "black wall street 100" and also "black wall street from riot to renaissance in tulsa's historic greenwood district." one of our viewers has this tweet, our books have been in my library for many years. reading this book was the catalyst for my study of other massacres and atrocities. antoinette joining us. >> caller: good morning. many years ago, i can't remember when, my mom, we talked about the black wall street, and unfortunately we had put those in the annuls of emmett till, for example, black people. what i wanted to say, from the cause and effect of what we've always gone through here in america, i feel as though reparations is a way to -- for

the united states to finally acknowledge and respect the atrocity of slavery, racism, because i can be a walking history, also. i was spat on. i was called the "n" word in the '60s. it has a cause and effect to black people. my question to you, mr. johnson, because you're a scholar, do you think maybe the scholars and elders can come together and talk about psychologically what black americans go through here, and that stigma of not receiving reparations like everyone else. when they received theirs, it was quiet. nobody heard anything. but for us we have to constantly, constantly relive the atrocities of what we're

going through. we have no sense of language, some of us. we have no sense of where we came from. we only have these stories to talk about. and at one time when we had those eyes on the prize, black power in the '70s, it's always some kind of way diminished, and we go backwards. now today our children have no sense of love for one another, and i always -- i know in my gut it's psychological, too. when you look at the scale of justice, it will never come even for black americans. so if we can all collectively come together and finally come to a solution, reparations is self-explanatory. i want to say thank you so much for the information you've given with us. i've shared that with my

grandson. he's 18. he knows about wall street. he knows about the -- what we call talking history, i try to keep that going. i would like to see reparations in my lifetime so i can pass it down. it's not much. like i said, the scale will tell you you can't put a price on what happened to us. >> antoinette, thank you. this is just a followup from mary on twitter. you can respond to both points, mr. johnson. when i first saw the postings about the tulsa massacre, i thought it might be some sort of a horror click bait, some exaggerated story meant to rile people. after all, i never even heard one thing about it. how could something like that happen and i did not know? i was angry that i didn't know. so to mary's point and to antoinette from philadelphia, your response. >> you know, i hear that all the time. particularly people in oklahoma who are angry they are from this

place yet don't know its history. i hear that as often or more often from people who are white than people who are black. it's really important to understand that we have been cheated out of something if we don't know our history. we've got a lot of remediation to do and a lot of catching up to do. the caller's point i think really goes to the issue of trauma, and the need for us to acknowledge that we have been traumatized and to perhaps convene listening sessions around that trauma to understand the full extent of the trauma. what is missing, what is absent? what do we need to shore up because of that trauma? we know we need to do a better job of educating ourselves and others. but are there other things that we need to help us get through

this life given the trauma that has befallen us. in terms of reparations, there are conversations going on all over the place with regard to reparations. of course, reparations for slavery. i believe the bill was successfully passed in the house that would initiate a study of reparations for slavery. part of a subdiscussion in that regard is a discussion of incidents throughout the united states like the incident in tulsa and what does that mean in terms of our reparations conversation. these are conversations that need to be had. it's hard history. there are differences of opinion. but if we recognize and value and listen to others, i think there's a way forward for us. i don't know what the future holds in terms of caste reparations. when we think about reparations, it's important certainly to think about caste reparations to

individuals, but that is perhaps the most sticky wicket because the devil is in the details as to who gets what and what proof is required and all that. it's not that it can't be done. it's difficult. there are other forms of reparations that we could be working on on parallel tracks. these are more communal, collective types of reparations, scholarships, other educational enhancements, facilities that are educational like museums and so forth. we need to be working on all those things and not put all our eggs in one basket. again, they're complementary, not contradictory. they're not mutually exclusive. let's look at all possibilities in terms of reparations and pursue them all vigorously. >> there is an incredible moment, you can catch it on the c-span video library. at the age of 107, viola

fletcher, who was 6 1/2, 7 at the time, remembering what happened in 1921. she came to washington, d.c., provided her testimony. we heard a portion of it a moment ago. the full video is available on our website at c-span.org, incredible on some many different levels, especially at the age of 107. she is completely lucid and recalls in great detail exactly what happened. hannibal johnson, i want to ask you about john hope franklin, a name you mentioned before. a park and a freeway named after him. first, who was he, and what role did he play in all of this? >> john hope franklin was an imminent historian, a son of tulsa. his father, b.c. franklin, was a lawyer who just moved his law offices here to tulsa from wren teaseville when the massacre happened in 1921. there is an iconic paragraph of

b.c. franklin and another lawyer and a staff person working out of a tent after his law offices were destroyed in the massacre. john hope franklin, b.c. franklin's son, grew up in tulsa, graduated from historic booker t. washington high school in 1931. he was valedictorian. the valedictorian of tulsa central high school, mr. borston, he and mr. franklin were honored at a ceremony at -- i believe the mayo hotel. these are valedictorians, one from the black school and one from the white school. in his memoir "mirror to america," john hope franklin talks about the fact that these are both valedictorians, yet at the ceremony honoring the two of them, he is forced to sit in an anteroom outside the main hall.

again, this is for a ceremony honoring him, because of the rigid segregation that existed in tulsa. so john hope franklin, went on to have a distinguished career, went to harvard, taught at university of chicago, ended his career at duke university as professor emeritus. he is the imminent historian of black history and, again, a sun of tulsa who visited park. john hope franklin reconciliation park named for him and a center that works on intercultural for race relations, named in his honor, somebody we should all know. >> we're hearing from current and former residents of tulsa, oklahoma. our next caller is a former resident of tulsa. mansa, welcome to the conversation. >> caller: good morning. i'm an aboriginal american,

indigenous american. a lot of the history the scholar is trying to recite is history that happened before the -- after the european presence came here and -- these why terminology and words are important. we wasn't called african-americans. that was created around the time jesse jackson was running for president. we were called moores. terminology is very important because a lot of history evolved in what we were really called. the moores americans at the time, a treaty was the newly formed u.s. government called the moores treaty which we should be going by, still in existence as we speak. it wasn't no five tribes.

the five tribes were -- newly formed u.s. government only acknowledged five tribes. there were hundreds of tribes. the newly formed u.s. government only acknowledged five tribes. that had something to do with the kidnapping of pocahontas and her coming back being christian. this was a muslim country. we did muslim religion. and then when pocahontas was kidnapped and came back a christian, it changed -- we started having the north american practice of christianity, and they only acknowledged the five tribes out of the hundreds of tribes that were here. >> thank you, mansa, we'll get a response. hannibal johnson. >> he makes an interesting point about the five civilized tribes. obviously that language is somewhat controversial. they were called the five civilized tribes because these

were the tribes that ak culture ated to european ways most readily. interestingly and ironically, one of those ways to which they acclimated themselves was chattel slavery. again, the five tribes engaged in the practice of chattel slavery. he talks about the existence of additional tribes. of course there were many other tribes besides those tribes. in oklahoma we have -- i think the last count, at least 39 recognized tribes. so the five tribes are important because of their historical role in populating and resetting, forcibly, in indian territory which ultimately merged with what was called oklahoma territory to create in 1907 the state of oklahoma. >> nita is next, any cal pin, florida. go ahead, please. >> caller: thank you for taking my calls. i watched the documentary

yesterday, and i'm 59 years old, and this is the first time, all through school, my whole life that i have heard about this. and i think that the white people on the other side that started all this, their descendants should be giving back those lands that they took, and i'm sure those people that started all this have names on buildings and everything else. they've taught this family to do it again and again and again throughout the generations, and i really appreciate this conversation. i learned a lot in the last two days. thank you so much. >> nita, thank you. and park storm again, which is typical of many of the tweets we've been getting saying i also never learned about tulsa in school. it is not taught. critical race theory would change that. does this surprise you, the sentiment we're hearing from our viewers and listeners? >> it does not surprise me.

how do we know what we know? we typically know what we know, particularly around subjects like history, because it's something that we study in our textbooks, in our curriculum. curriculum. this is not something that's been included in text books for american history curriculum or oklahoma history curriculum until relatively recently, so that people do not know it is not surprising at all. and that is why i'm grateful for a series like watchmen, for example, that incorporates some of this history in pretty realistic and authentic ways, and i hope encourages people to seek out the full measure of this history. it's a window into the history that i think is helpful because it piques the curiosity of folks and helps folks understand the importance of the history and

forces them to ask questions like your callers and your tweeters are asking, why don't i know this. why wasn't this included in my curriculum. we all need to be asking that, and we all have agency, we have capacity to make a difference. we all are represented by school board members and elected officials. if this is something that we feel needs to be changed, then we have people whom we elect who can change it. so we have to exercise our agency and get it done. >> back in 1980, mosella franklin jones, a black woman, she was 14 at the time, recalling what greenwood was like before and after may 31st and june 1st, 1921. here is her firsthand account. >> it was booming and very alive. and it continued to grow until the last.

everything was just destroyed, not only the businesses destroyed, but many of the homes was destroyed. there were many professional people. homes were destroyed and looted. and then they began to -- that restricted them from building unless they met certain specifications like fire walls and so forth. then there was a law firm, franklin chappell who filed a $4 million suit for the people against the city, and they won the suit, and then the people began to rebuild, and, you know, after they began to rebuild in 1938, it looked better than it had ever been because most of the businesses had been

revealed, larger buildings, and. >> that from mosella franklin jones, her firsthand account. our next caller is also a former resident of tulsa, cheryl now in los angeles, good morning. >> good morning, steve. i'm so glad you're back. first of all, i want to make a statement to mr. johnson. and the statement is -- am i on? >> yeah, you are cheryl, please go ahead. >> thank you. >> first of all, i noticed that we talk about reparations and i feel that we should never say we do not want a check. it's totally separate. we worked this land, built this country and for that and many other reasons i feel that we should have a check aside from anything else. and then after we get reparations like the agents did

when the war was on, and no one said anything about building schools or any of those things because that was totally separate. they had taken things from the japanese people, put them in a camp as they have done numerous times, and forbid us to work and all sort of things. so i feel aside from all the things, other things that we deserve and want, that's fine. and we should go after that, but first and foremost, they should give us a check without anything being attached to it, a check alone. and then after we get the check for our ancestors building this country, then i feel after that, then we can go after libraries and schools and all the other things that we need. but right now, i feel first and foremost we should get a check. thank you for listening. thank you for having me on. >> cheryl, thank you. former resident of tulsa.

you want to respond to that? >> well, certainly. yeah, sure. i have no argument with monetary reparations. i think i made that clear. i think there are parallel tracks where we're going to be looking at all aspects of reparations. when you say they should give us a check, who is they and how are we going to get the check? those are practical things that have to be resolved. the check has to come from somewhere, and there has to be a process of getting folks to approve the check and who gets the check and how much is the check. it's complicated. again, it doesn't mean that's not doable. it means that while we're working on cash reparations which are clearly morally justified, there are some other forms of reparations that we can work on as well, which are less complicated, and more communal and collective and could benefit

entire communities or the entire nation. so let's work on those as well. let's work on parallel tracks. it's sort of walking and chewing gum at the same time. it's that concept. it's that we don't have to limit ourselves to one remedy. there are multiple remedies, all of which are justified, some of us are going to be interesting in working on some things more than others. >> front page story this weekend in the "new york times" also available at nytimes.com telling the story of the tulsa massacre is the headline. with a lot of this media attention, are we getting the story right? >> that's actually a great question. are we getting the story right? so for me, it's always been about the community and the people and the massacre is an event that happens in the

context of the community and the people to the extent that getting it right has to do with understanding a more holistic picture. i would say that some of us are coming up short in terms of coverage because of a fixation on the massacre. now, i understand that, you know, this is commemorating the 100th anniversary of the massacre. i see that as an opportunity to bring people's attention to the full story. so understand the massacre, but understand the full story here in greenwood, understand the national context and understand the international and universal significance. >> and one final question, how is tulsa today, this week, and over the next few weeks commemorating what happened 100 years ago? >> tulsa's commemorating in a number of different ways. one of them, intimately involved

with the opening of greenwood rising, a world class history center. we have worked with an exhibit design firm called local projects in new york city on this. they did the 9/11 museum, so it's going to be a wonderful facility that tells this complete story and draws a through line between the history and our present. encourages us to use the lessons of our history to challenge current issues around race. that's one way. we received a million dollar grant from bloomberg philanthropy to do what's called the greenwood art project, so there are installations of various types going on around the city even as we speak. going forward, there will be, i hope, a number of initiatives and dialogues, exhibits. i'm sitting in the tulsa historical society and museum in

the midst of a wonderful exhibit about the greenwood history, so this is just another opportunity for folks to come in, to learn, to grow, to take the lessons of our history as we move forward into 2022 amazingly. >> our guest author and historian, his books, black city 100 and also the author of the book black wall street, from riot to renaissance in tulsa's greenwood district. we want to thank the tulsa historical society, to allow us to share what happened 100 years ago. with half a minute left, what are your final thoughts about this anniversary? >> it's a solemn occasion. again, it's about commemorating a massacre, but it's much more than that. it's about understanding the massacre's place in our national and international history.

and ultimately, i always hark back to that universal imperative of recognizing our shared humanity. understanding, appreciating and valuing the dignity and worth of every other human being on this planet. if we do that, there won't be another 1921 tulsa race massacre. >> hannibal johnson joining us from tulsa, oklahoma, inside the historical society and museum. we thank you for being here on c-span and c-span3's american history tv where we explore history every weekend. thank you. >> we're standing here next to the statue