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>> outside in tulsa, oklahoma, at the historical society. a look back at the events from 100 years. it is harder than ever to know much about the 37 confirmed dead. hannibal johnson will be joining us. hannibal johnson will be joining us, he is the author of "lack wall street 100" and also "black wall street." mr. johnson, thank you for joining us. guest: good morning. host: walk us through the events as they unfolded over an 18 hour period on may the first, 1921 -- on may 31, 1921.

guest: the initial event involved two teenagers, a black boy and a white girl who operated an elevator. the event unfolds on monday, may 30, 1921. take roland -- roland is working and he has to use a restroom, he knows one is available at the downtown drexel building. he walks over to the building, boards the elevator being operated by sarah page. something happened on the elevator, we don't know exactly what it was. something that caused the elevator to jerk or lurch. dirk brushed up against her, she overreacted and began screaming. he was frightened. the elevator landed back in the lobby and he fled. sarah page, exited deal elevator

. she was comforted by a store clerk by a local -- a store clerk from a local store. she told him her story about being assaulted. he called the police. sarah page would later retract or recant that story. she refused to cooperate with prosecutors who arrested roland. that might have been the end of the story if it had not been for the intervention of the tulsa tribune which the next day, being may 31, 1921, published any article about -- published an article claiming roland had attempted to rape sarah page in the elevator.

the article went out of its way to make sarah page look virtuous. as a corollary to make roland look at villainous. it had its desired impact. a crowd of white men began to gather on the lawn of the courthouse. roland was being held in the jail. the man began to talk about possibly lynching him. black men got wind of dylan's talk, several dozen black men gathered, some of them world war i veterans, many armed vowing to protect roland. the white mob continued to swell, numbering in the thousands. not surprisingly, as the black men approached, words were exchanged, a white man tried to take a black man's gun, and

according to one of the survivors, all hell broke loose. that is the beginning of the tulsa race massacre which ultimately devastated the thriving greenwood community. black men put up a rigorous defense initially against this onslaught. the white mob spilled across the frisco tracks, burning, looting, and shooting people. some of these people were deputized by local law enforcement. we know members of the mob prevented the tulsa fire department from putting out the fires. at the end of the day, we believe between 100 and 300 people, most of them black, lost their lives. hundreds more were injured, property damage was $1.5 million which would be in the tens of millions of dollars today. at least 1250 homes in the black community were destroyed as well

as a number of other establishments. some people in the black community were rounded up and taken to internment centers. ostensibly for their own protection, but it left the community defenseless to those who would come in and burn and loot. host: the tulsa world has some photographs of what that would look like. i should point out as we begin our conversation that we will show some photographs that you might find disturbing. we feel it is important to get a sense of exactly what happened. i wanted to jump in and ask you about this district called black wall street. what can you tell us about greenwood? guest: black wall street is an moniker attached to the business sector of the greenwood community .

it was more like a black main street. they were mom and pop operations, commercial establishments, restaurants, grocery stores, hotels, movie theaters, dance halls, confectionery's, coupled with service providers like doctors, lawyers, and accountants. a commercial district like you might find in many places across the nation. this was a segregated black community, it was a community of necessity because black folks were not able to engage with the regular economy. they faced an economic tour that created their oasis in the greenwood district. host: the death has come under some speculation. there are 37 confirmed deaths but you said 100 to 300, why such a variance? guest: the official death toll is 37.

most historians and others who have studied this incident believe the death toll was much higher, between 100 and 300. there were reports to that effect even at the time, even the report by the red cross. the reason for the discrepancy involves a number of factors. we know a number of people were injured mortally and left town and died elsewhere. some were buried without record. the actual record-keeping was suspect in that period. we know that there are oral histories and other documentation that indicate there are mass graves somewhere in tulsa. there is a mass graves investigation underway even as we speak. host: we are dividing our phone lines. if you're a current or former resident of tulsa, oklahoma, 202-748-8000.

for all others, 202-748-8001. . . .+++j tragedy of oklahoma but it seems there has been a renewed renaissance for trying to study this, something that may not have been studied 50 or 75 years ago. guest: a number of people talk about a conspiracy of silence with respect to this history. conspiracy is a strong word suggesting agreement. i don't know if we can prove agreement, but there are psychological dynamics that have kept this history under wraps. when the massacre happened in 1921, tulsa was on an upward trajectory to becoming the oil capital of the world. the city fathers had any interest in minimizing if not

erasing this history. sectors of the community, there was shame that this incident had been allowed to unfold on what people considered to be a cosmopolitan, forward-looking city. in the black community, there was posttraumatic stress disorder, anxiety, and fear. fear that such an event could occur and anxiety about sharing that information with family. in fact, knowing this information -- that knowing this kind of information could somehow hobble them. there were a number of bricks -- breaks in terms of the knowledge of this history. ed wheeler published an article about this history in a black magazine. he received death threats.

people told him they should not -- people told him he should not be talking about this. another released a book called "death of a promised land." it was his doctoral distant -- his doctoral dissertation at duke. the major opening became -- image opening came -- they held hearings, met regularly, released april -- released a report. that drew international attention and opened the floodgates in terms of the beginning of curricular reform. host: we want to thank you for being with us and we want to thank the tulsa historical society for providing us with a lot of resources we are using to tell the story of what happened century ago, may 31, 1921. two weeks after that incidence, the mayor had this statement to

the commissioners looking into the events in greenwood. i want you to react to this because i notice in your book. "let the blame for this uprising why right where it belongs, on those armed negroes and their followers who started this trouble and to instigated it. any persons who seek to put half the blame on the white people are wrong and should be told so." that is from june 14, 1921. your reaction? guest: a pretty amazing statement blaming the black community for its own demise. post-massacre, several dozen like men were indicted for the offense of inciting a riot. it is victim blaming, blame shifting.

unfortunately, it is characteristic of race relations of that. that's of race relations -- of race relations of that period. the systemic racial situations were across the u.s. host: you are in tulsa oklahoma, there had been security threats over the weekend. president biden will be there tomorrow. how is the community remembering the horrors of what happened 100 years ago? guest: there are a lot of things going on in terms of remembrance. there is a legacy fest this weekend, a festival celebrating black history and culture and celebrating the greenwood history. tonight, whether permit -- tonight, weather permitting, we

are expecting a candlelight vigil which begins around 10:30, around the time the first shots were fired on may 31. also on june 2 we are opening greenwood rising which is a world-class history center going up on the corner of greenwood and orchard to tell the entire narrative of the greenwood community. it is important to people in the community we not just fixate on the massacre, that we understand that we are talking about a community. it consisted of people. these were african-american people who created this incredible community. they nurtured and sustained the community during the -- through the massacre. it thrived into the 40's and 50's and early on into the 60's. the events are marking the

massacre, the events we commemorate today, but also black wall street, that entrepreneurial character that existed in the community. host: which is the title of your new book, "black wall street 100." our guest will be with us for the next 75 minutes here on c-span's washington journal and on c-span3's history tv. we have a phone line for those who are current or former residents of tulsa, oklahoma, 202-748-8000. for the rest, 202-748-8001. nancy is on the phone from new jersey. caller: i feel that white people and their attitude will never change and their desire is to promote white supremacy. i think black people need to use the roadmap that white people

used and treat them the same way. if they're going to forget our history when we get in the majority, we are going to be rewriting their history. if they can do the same thing and look in our faces and say we can't -- we did not do that on purpose and we have to show proof that they had intention to do this. we know that white people did the entire time and they are trying to write out that there was an intention to do a lot of things. but also, reparations. what do you think about paying reparations for all the businesses destroyed and how black people were affected all of these years? thank you. host: hannibal johnson, your response to that sentiment? guest: first, i would say that this history is all of our history.

it is impossible to understand american history if you leave out the totality of the experiences of american people, including black people, native people, and other people whose history has been marginalized. we have done a poor job of teaching what should be american history which is a people's history of the united states. it belongs to all of us, we needed to all know it and learn its lessons. the caller mentioned the concept of reparations. for me, i think of it in a denotative sense. it means to make amends or to repair the damage. once we look at those definitions, let's think about what are the best mechanisms to repair the damage or make amends?

many people think only about cash reparations to identified individuals, survivors or descendants. there is no question that cash reparations to survivors are morally justified. the question is more of a practical question of how best to get those reparations from the comparable sources -- from the culpable sources. in tulsa, we are looking at the city and the state and so forth. the routes that has been chosen is primarily the legal route. i think that is the route least likely to pay fruit. reparations for racial trauma similar to events like those and it also have come by way of the legislative process. the 1923 rosewood massacre, victims of that massacre and descendants received reparations from florida legislature. people of japanese ancestry interned during world war ii

received reparations from congress. it seems the legislative route is the most likely to yield cash representations. cash for positions -- cash reparations. cash reparations cannot be the be-all and all. my focus has been largely on repairing the damage done in the educational process by not including this information in the curriculum. we worked closely with the oklahoma department of education , even the governor's office to help get a curriculum change that this is top across generations. if we really want change in racial relations, we have to understand that race and racism are chronic issues and we have to impact each successful generation. how do we do that? we included this information in textbooks. other types of reparations

include investments. this could be targeted investments in the black community so that we repair economic damage done to the black wall street. other type of -- other types of investments include investments in education. museums, parks, history centers like greenwood rising which will teach this history in a robust way and draw a through line from history antidepressant. -- and the present. part of the goal is to have patrons understand this history, learn its lessons, and challenge them to apply those lessons to current regional challenges like black lives matter, black community and police relations, health care disparities, and on and on. any honest reckoning -- a honest

reckoning without history is part of american citizenship. host: our guest is joining us from inside the tulsa oklahoma historical society. he studied at the university of arkansas. teresa is joining us from tulsa, oklahoma. good morning. caller: my name is teresa. in 1989 or 1990, senator maxine horner assigned me because of me and my husband's expertise to the greenwood task force. during that period of time, we heard hunting stories because people were interviewed -- we heard hunting stories because people were interviewed and there were more people alive during that time. one of the stories that haunts

me is the story of a woman giving birth and in the exodus where people were having to leave, they put the baby in a man's shoebox. somehow in the craziness and fear, that shoebox got lost. we have moved to california and now we are back and we have been here a year -- we had moved to california and now we are back and we have been here a year. i want to get involved with greenwood again. host: thank you for sharing your story with us. we will get a response. hannibal johnson? guest: what a moving story. i remember the story of the woman who gave birth during the massacre and the baby was put in a shoebox.

there are so many horrific stories around the 1921 race massacre. that is the reason we need to understand this history. there are mistakes that have been made that we cannot allow to happen again. why do we study the holocaust? we study it because horrific things were perpetrated that should never happen again. we study incidents like the massacre here because we need to understand that our shared humanity is a universal imperative. everybody needs to understand the imperative of recognizing, validating the dignity and worth of each and every other human being on this planet. we have lessons in our history that we ignore at our own peril. host: we have been showing paragraphs -- showing

photographs courtesy of the historical center of tulsa, oklahoma. we have a view of what greenwood looks like today to give an idea of what -- any idea of how to transformed. give us any idea of what is ahead. guest: district of greenwood is very different than if you're looking at photos pre-massacre. it is a business community a couple of decades after the massacre, early to mid 1940's. well over 200 black owned business as talismans in that community. it decline in the 60's -- in the 1960's and 1980's because of a lack of a mentorship progress. today, the greenwood community is an integrated community. you will find residences, you will find entertainment venues,

cultural venues, religious venues, educational venues. it is an eclectic community, shared space that is integrated. much of the land is no longer owned by african-americans. the community is working to establish a new identity. black wall street 201. and working through the race massacre centennial commission to preserve the history. there is a view that leveraging and preserving the history of economics and entrepreneurship is imperative. the questions are the details. how do we do that in an integrated world? how do we cultivate economics

and entrepreneurship and honor the rich traditions of african-american participation and cultivation of those things. how do we target african-american business and potential entrepreneurs and bring them back into that community. for me, it is about helping people understand this legacy of economics and entrepreneurship created by black folks in the greenwood district with an understanding that black art printers and business people are no longer constrained geographically to that area. with technology, the black wall street mindset can be deployed anywhere. it is about understanding the history and the role models we have and using them, leveraging him in ways that create a new cadre of businesswomen and businessmen and entrepreneurs.

host: the tulsa world has a number of interesting stories about this anniversary, including the story of brady, a city leader and community leader and a member of the kkk. he is believed to be one of the leaders in the massacre and the sentence of brady were quoted in the article. there is a first-hand account from williams, he was 16 at the time when this took place. the audio is courtesy of the museum and historical society in tulsa, oklahoma. here is my she remembers. --what he remembers. [video clip] >> they never did catch the dad.

he got out as far as pine street . one of his business associates took a gun to his house. they came down to the hallway and bared me out. did not know where mama was. i ran into him downtown. i saw her and i said mama. that was something. none of us knew where the other was. host: that is from william dan whitworth -- dan with -- dan firth -- william. guest: yes.

he is the son of john williams. she and other people really help us understand these events. the survivor testimonials --many of the survivors were recorded when the commission met. the local historian met with, interviewed and recorded all of the living survivors that she could find, as a part of that commission work. those histories are archived at the historical society and are very helpful to understanding the tragedies and psychological dynamics going on in the minds of the victims of the massacre. they talked about not knowing

where his parents were. he was 16 years old and does not know where his parents are. it is a sense of uncertainty, anxiety and fear. here is what he said back in 1977, past of his own oral history. >> i saw a guy in my mother's upstairs where we lived, had her handbag, and she had one of these leopard coats, fur coat, pretty expensive you know. you could see the belt off of it, hanging -- >> how did this affect your parents? do you remember them talking about it? >> not much, because we lived in a tent for a few months until

they built back the living quarters upstairs. i never did hear them talk about it much. i was more interested in myself, doing school, football team, wondering if they're going to have a team. we were getting ready to have the junior/senior prom, and they burned down all the halls, the dance halls where you could have it. i know they must have felt it was a tough fight. they finally built them back. as i said, this recession set in. they couldn't make the payments. >> hannibal johnson, as you hear that firsthand account from w.d. williams and we look at the pictures, what type of arsenal did these mobs use that would

cause so much damage so quickly? >> one of the tragedies with regard to the way the massacre unfolded was that local law enforcement charged with protecting all citizens in tulsa actually de facto sided with the white mob, deputizing many people in the mob and assisting many people in the white mob when they looted pawn shops and sporting goods stores for weapons and munitions. so these were people who were fully armed. there was a machine gun actually used in the massacre as well. not surprisingly, the black community was overmatched in terms of the weaponry the mob was able to secure to use to destroy the community.

the other interesting and perhaps unique thing with regard to the massacre is that airplanes were used. the official version of events is that airplanes were used for reconnaissance. they were looking and surveying what was going on in the ground. but there is ample evidence, certainly credible eyewitness evidence and other evidence that planes were used both to strafe the community with bullets, somebody firing a gun from the planes, and that planes were used to drop incendiary devices on the community. this might have been dynamite. it might have been molotov cocktails with nitroglycerin or kerosene. it's uncertain. but there's compelling evidence that planes were used in this massacre to help destroy the community. >> if you're interested and unable to travel to tulsa,

oklahoma, you can go to the website, tulsahistory.org, and they provide a timeline of events as it all unfolded 100 years ago today. 18 hours from the evening of may 31st and concluding the next day on june 1st. president biden will be in oklahoma, in tulsa to commemorate this anniversary. larry is joining us, a former resident of tulsa. go ahead, please. >> caller: yes, sir. my grandfather, les wilson worked in the oil field for texaco. there were hundreds of oil rigs around tulsa. a lot of equipment they used on the oil rigs come in two-by-sixes, two by eights, two by tens, two by 12s. a lot of people, white and african-americans built huts around tulsa and worked in the oil field. my grandfather and his friend -- his friend was going to get married. they went to one of the largest

hotels right there next to where this riot started, and my grandfather and his friend went out on the porch, and i understand the porch was off the ground probably 20, 25 feet, a big porch with a lot of steps. his friend's wife went upstairs to clean up, and they were going to go out to eat. they went back on the porch because people come in hotels said there was firing going on down the street. my grandfather and his friend got on the porch. all of a sudden, a bullet came between him and killed a man standing next to them. anyway, my grandfather related this story to me all my life. he went on to run a big oil drilling business which is still in business, worked in 12 states. he was very saddened by all of this. and when you related about the

airplanes, my grandfather told me, they went out there, there was a lot of dynamite they used on the oil rigs, and they broke into the dynamite houses, got on the airplanes and flew over this community and kept dropping dynamite. everything your author is telling you actually happened. i was trying to think what all happened. there was a lot of those airplanes -- oh, the thing my grandfather told me was, the story going around when the riot started was a white girl had come home, and she was all disheveled. he said what happened? and she was out with another white man they said. anyway, she lied and said that an african-american had attacked her, and that story went around.

and later she recanted that story, according to my grandfather. and he was around tulsa for years working for texaco. anyway, he claims that she -- this white girl started all this mess by some of the lies she told. but anyway, there were some other things my grandfather told me. his whole life -- and i saw the short movie of that. i talked to a white author that had a book on this story, and i talked to him years ago and told him some of the things. but a lot of the white people in oklahoma sent a lot of money and other things to help the black community. i saw some of the people had really nice african-american stores, i mean first rate and

they destroyed all of them which was really sad. there was some more things he told me. i'm taking up all of your time. >> larry, we appreciate your first-hand account. how old are you today, by the way? >> caller: i'm 81. all my kin people worked in oil fields. my grandmother is from haskel which is right outside tulsa. >> we'll leave it there. thank you very much for your call and the firsthand account. i want to pick up on one point he made. he talked about how the community responded. how did official tulsa, oklahoma, city leaders respond, and the red cross and others during the initial days after the massacre? >> well, the american red cross provided relief post massacre. it was led by a fellow named maurice willows sent in from st. louis. by all accounts, black and white, the red cross did a wonderful job. in fact, the red cross was called angels of mercy because

of all the work that they did in providing medical care, food, shelter, clothing, et cetera. a couple of downtown white churches that are still here were awful instrumental in providing post massacre relief. first presbyterian church and holy family cathedral. there were a number of stories about individuals in the white community who provided support post mass sker and during the massacre as well. for example, some african-american women were domestics in white homes in south tulsa. some of those women were sheltered in those homes as the massacre unfolded because people for whom they worked heard about what was going on and wanted to protect them, safeguard them over on the south side of tulsa. the city of tulsa for its part was not helpful immediately post massacre. there were a number of promises

made about reparations, a number of people talking in grand ways about repairing the damage and making the community whole. most of those promises were ultimately broken. the city of tulsa even tried to extend its fire code into the greenwood district in such a way that would make rebuilding for most african-americans cost prohibitive. so that was challenged by attorney b.c. franklin, the father of the imminent historian dr. john hope franklin. finally, we've talked a little bit about the tulsa tribune, the daily afternoon newspaper. three days after the massacre, on june 4th, 1921, the tribune published an editorial about the possible rebuilding. it was called "it must not be again." the uneducated, the people who were not knowledgeable about this history might think the tribune was publishing an

article condemning the violence against the african-american community, essentially saying that sort of violence and chaos should not be allowed in tulsa again. that's not what the editorial was. it referred to the black community in really derogatory terms and called it a cesspool and said "it must not be again." the black community should not be rebuilt, should not be resurrected. that's the kind of hostility, open and obvious hostility faced by the black community here in tulsa in 1921, even post massacre. the fact that they were able to rebound and rebuild their community is yet another testament to the indomitable human spirit that was endemic among the founders of the greenwood community. that's something we must leverage going forward, that human spirit. >> this is the headline from "the black dispatch," "a lot,

arson and murder, not belgium, but the greenwood street in tulsa, oklahoma. a white woman, seven years old at the time, courtesy of the tulsa historical museum and society with an oral history of exactly what she remembers as her family harbored some of the african-american people who lived in the greenwood district and were scared. >> the colored women who had been doing our washing for years showed up at our house on wednesday, just scared today. my mother said, lilly, what's the matter? this isn't your day to come to word. she said ms. waters, can you

hide me? all the buildings in town are being set fire to. she brought her in, poured her a cup of coffee and told her to sit down. she never did quit shaking. my mother figured out that the only place that she was sure of that nobody would probably look was down through a trap door that went into our basement which was covered generally by a rug. she gave lilly and this little girl she had with her some blankets and pillows and some food and water. and she stayed down in that place the whole day. about 3:00, 4:00 in the afternoon, there were two men standing there that said they were police officers. they wanted to know if the woman that worked here had come to work that morning. mother said she doesn't work here on wednesdays. they said, well, i bet she's

here. she said well, come in and look. they came in and searched every closet and every room in the entire house. and then they went out and searched the garage. then they came back. mother said, well, do you want to come back in and search some more. they said no, i guess not. so they went off. >> that firsthand account from 1978. again, our thanks to the tulsa historical society and museum, part of the oral histories that have been conducted, those that remember what happened on may 31st, 1921. let's get back to your phone calls. allan is joining us from durham, north carolina. you're next with hannibal johnson. good morning. >> caller: good morning, sir. thank you for providing us this golden information about our culture and what we've done. i have conservative values, but i'm an independent. i listen and i'm kind of a news

junkie. i'm a historian. i love to hear about people of color and african-american history and what we've contributed. conservatives always talk about exceptionalism. well, that greenwood community is exceptional. this is what we're talking about, having the opportunity to -- this is what they call strapping up your boot straps from 18 something since they were released, they came all the way to oklahoma and made it a great kind of new york wall street. due to jealousy and due to mean power, they hurt african-americans and then hid it for several years. those individuals who survived and their families, we need to honor them and we need -- america needs to apologize to them, just like they did the japanese in camps, bombing them from above.

that's terrorism, and won't even talk about the car accident, the people that got killed as far as being hung. this is american history that needs to be brought out. that's why the critical race theory and what's going on in school today needs to be taught. white people are afraid -- not all. i'm not prejudice at all. not all. i am pro african-american people of color. >> alan, thank you. i want to go back because he mentioned the genesis of this, and you talked about it a moment ago. what does this headline that you indicated earlier tell you about where tulsa was in 1921 and the country. "nab negro for attacking girl in an elevator." that building, of course, the drexel building. >> he does write good points. one of the things we need to

understand about the massacre in tulsa, it was emblematic of the racial violence going on in the united states more generally. tulsa in 1921 comes on the heel of a major outbreak of so-called race riots, mostly assaults on black communities in 1919. in 1919 alone there were over two dozen major events called race riots throughout the united states in places as far flung as new york and philadelphia, washington, d.c., omaha, nebraska, chicago, elaine, arkansas, long view, texas and on and on and on. in addition, during that same period, lynching was prolific throughout the united states. even here in oklahoma, between oklahoma statehood, 1907, and 1920, the year just prior to the massacre in 1921, there were 33 lynchings in oklahoma. 27 of those lynching victims

were black. so we have these twin terrors in the united states during this period. race riots or so-called race riots on the one hand and lynching, domestic terrorism on the other. we're living in this period in a sort of racial crucible in which black people essentially have no place to run, no safe haven given the span of institutional systemic racism of the worst kind. >> again, we want to share with you some of these photographs. we realize they are disturbing. so if it does bother, just be forewarned, but just some of the scenes immediately after what happened. this from june 1st, 1921, 100 years ago. our guest is hannibal johnson, he's written this, black wall street, american city grapples

with racial trauma. in the aftermath, the dead estimated at 100. now today estimated at over 300, "the city is quiet." bill is joining us from across the atlantic in england. good afternoon to you and thank you for joining in on the conversation. >> caller: how can we stop these horrible massacres in the future, how can we stop them? i know the question has been asked before. >> thank you for weighing in. hannibal johnson, how can we stop this? >> well, we stop such atrocious incidents from happening in the future by understanding our past. we've got to do a better job of making sure we understand the violence and the racial trauma that is part of our past and

teach it in such a way that really engenders compassion and empathy in succeeding generations. it's really the $64,000 question, and it really has everything to do with what i would consider to be diversity, equity and inclusion. making sure people understand history is part of that. making sure people have meaningful engagement with people who don't look like them or don't come from the same cultural group or religious group or other dimensions of diversity. making sure there's this cross-fertilization. that's part of it. making sure that our work spaces and our personal lives invest in diversity, equity and inclusion. all those efforts are essential if we're not to repeat the mistakes of the past. again, it boils down to

something i said earlier. it really is about the universal imperative of understanding our shared humanity, because if we understand our shared humanity, if each and every one of us is committed to that, then such incidents will not recur because we'll respect the personhood, the dignity and the worth of each and every other individual living among us. racism is the antithesis of that. >> and, of course, that story is told in great detail at the museum in tulsa, oklahoma, where you are. but at what point did this story become more public knowledge? was there a turning point? >> the turning point, i believe, was again the issuance of the report from the oklahoma commission to study the tulsa

race massacre of 1921. that report came out in february of 2001. it drew international attention, and it also caused in oklahoma much more conversation to be had about curriculum. tulsa public schools over the last 20 years has done a really great job in working to incorporate this history in meaningful ways. tulsa public schools is just unveiling a new curricular initiative whereby this history is going to be taught at every grade level, k-12, in an age appropriate way, and it's going to be taught in an interdisciplinary way. it's not just confined to american history, not just confined to oklahoma history, but it will be infused in other disciplines as well, social studies, language arts, et cetera, et cetera. that really is the way to integrate this history into the curriculum in ways that feel natural and authentic such that

kids will, in succeeding generations, understand their past and understand that universal imperative that i keep referring to of recognizing our shared humanity. >> let's get back to our viewers and listeners. bill is on the phone from new york city. we thank you for waiting. you're on the air. >> caller: good morning, and through for the discussion. i watch "the journal" every morning, as much as i can. i believe a solution is reached from a real system of justice that's needed, meaning guaranteeing that no one is mistreated and guaranteeing that those who need the most help get the most constructive help. that's what i would say just in simple form for a solution. but i would like to ask the guest today, how did this incident affect the futures of the people, these native-born black americans and their

descendants? and is this a story that is common for native black in america? >> bill, thank you. we'll get a response. >> to the point about the effects of this incident on descendants or successive generations, there are a number of things we need to consider. one is the economics. this event was a disrupter in terms of the ability for black folks to make intergenerational transfers of wealth. that's a really important point because we talk often about the wealth gap, the fact that black wealth in the united states typically is about one-tenth that of white wealth. why is that? part of the reason is these disrupters. obviously slavery is the origin story in terms of disruption, uncompensated labor. but the massacre in tulsa

obliterated an economically viable and successful black community. there were millionaires in the greenwood district, people who lost everything and, therefore, were not able to transfer that wealth intergenerationally. so it has an ongoing effect. the other legacy of the massacre, in my estimation, is a gulf of distrust between the black community and the white community, particularly with respect to white authority figures. remember i mentioned earlier that law enforcement actually deputized people in the white mob who overran the greenwood community. and then we ask today why is it people in the black community have lower levels of trust for law enforcement. well, that's part of the answer. part of the answer is history, historical treatment. again, in that way and many other ways, what happened in tulsa in 1921 is emblematic of

american history around race. these kinds of racial incidents, including the so-called race riots happened all across the country. lynching was widespread. between the collapse of reconstruction in 1877 and the peak of the civil rights movement in 1965, there were close to 5,000 lynchings in america. most of the victims were black. so we have this incredible legacy of trauma in the black community, failures on the part of government and other organized structures to provide for and protect members of the black community as were protected and provided for, members of the white community. so it's understandable that because we have led the wounds of our ancestors fester for so

long, because we haven't had the courage to confront them forthrightly, that race relations still suffer in the united states. and some of the incidents of race and racism still play out in ways that are similar to the way they played out 100 years ago. >> we should point out we're getting a lot of tweets, to basically summarize from our viewers and listeners, that this was not an isolated incident, that there were evidence of it across the country, not only in tulsa, oklahoma. this is the martial law declared by the governor of oklahoma in 1921. the governor at the time was government j.b.a. robert sochblt eli is a native of tulsa, oklahoma, joining us next on the air. go ahead, please. >> caller: hi. good morning, dr. johnson. good to see you this morning. can you explain to the public the allotment of the friedman,

particularly the creek friedman which was $1,943,000 acres, much of it around the tulsa area, and the cherokee friedman allotments and who they were that contributed to the great wealth of the black community such as greenwood and the other all-black towns in eastern oklahoma that was formerly indian territory. often it's left out of the conversation, and one of your callers earlier was talking about the oil and gas industry and how much of their land was part of that oil and gas industry as well as the importance of agriculture in the state's economy back in those days. it's really missing in the kks of why greenwood was wealthy, why tulsa was wealthy. we often leave that out, and i would like you to go in -- you've written about this -- and bring that to the attention of

the public. thank you. >> eli, thanks for adding your voice to the conversation. we should also point out that the description of what this area looked like is on display inside the historical society museum in tulsa. we'll show you those pictures and get your response, hannibal johnson, to his point. >> eli makes a number of great points. first, let's back up several steps and talk about the fact that there are relations between native americans and african-americans that we don't discuss nearly enough. we know about the so-called trails of tears, the forced migrations of the five civilized tribes out of the southeastern united states into what was then indian territory in the 1830s and 1840s, but we don't talk about the fact that all five of those tribes enslaved black people. we don't talk about the fact that on those trails of tears were people of african ancestry

as members of those tribes, many enslaved, some free. so that's how people of african ancestry got to oklahoma in the first instance, with the five civilized tribes, really important. we don't talk about the fact that the fact that the tribes officially sided with the confederacy during the civil war. the confederacy lost that war, by the way, and those tribes executed treaties with the federal government post civil war, generally called the treaties of 1866. in those treaties, those tribes with the exception of the chickasaws agreed to accept their formerly enslaved africans as tribal members. that's really significant because ultimately those black tribal members were receive land at lotments, parcells of land. land in the late 1800s, early 1900s really was an accession to

wealth. these people called freed men got their 40 acres or sometimes more. other people of african ancestry -- we talk about 40 acres and a mule and all that, those people never actually got that. these freedmen, black people who were tribal members, received land allotments. land is an accession to wealth. some of them created some of the all-black towns in oklahoma. oklahoma had more all-black towns than any other state in the union. the land allotments actually allowed these people relative wealth such that they could support successful business communities like the greenwood district which actually sits on land that once belonged to both cherokees and muskogee creek citizens. those freedmen, those people who were members of the muss koeg key creek nation, the cherokee

nation and so forth, they are a large part of why the greenwood district became successful and was wealthy and was known throughout the nation as the negro wall street of america, and later black wall street. so we need to really do a better job of understanding and educating people about the relationships between and among demographic groups. in oklahoma the rich history of oklahoma, which i think is some of the most robust history of any state in the union really comes from the intersection of three demographic groups, european americans, native americans and african-americans. it's those relationships, one to another, between and among those groups that really makes this fascinating, fascinating history. thank you, eli for the question. >> and we're talking about that here on c-span's "washington journal" and c-span3's american history tv another 25 minutes as

we reflect what happened 100 years ago today in tulsa, oklahoma. our guest is hannibal johnson. his books include "black wall street 100" and also "black wall street from riot to renaissance in tulsa's historic greenwood district." one of our viewers has this tweet, our books have been in my library for many years. reading this book was the catalyst for my study of other massacres and atrocities. antoinette joining us. >> caller: good morning. many years ago, i can't remember when, my mom, we talked about the black wall street, and unfortunately we had put those in the annuls of emmett till, for example, black people. what i wanted to say, from the

cause and effect of what we've always gone through here in america, i feel as though reparations is a way to -- for the united states to finally acknowledge and respect the atrocity of slavery, racism, because i can be a walking history, also. i was spat on. i was called the "n" word in the '60s. it has a cause and effect to black people. my question to you, mr. johnson, because you're a scholar, do you think maybe the scholars and elders can come together and talk about psychologically what black americans go through here, and that stigma of not receiving reparations like everyone else. when they received theirs, it

was quiet. nobody heard anything. but for us we have to constantly, constantly relive the atrocities of what we're going through. we have no sense of language, some of us. we have no sense of where we came from. we only have these stories to talk about. and at one time when we had those eyes on the prize, black power in the '70s, it's always some kind of way diminished, and we go backwards. now today our children have no sense of love for one another, and i always -- i know in my gut it's psychological, too. when you look at the scale of justice, it will never come even for black americans. so if we can all collectively come together and finally come to a solution, reparations is

self-explanatory. i want to say thank you so much for the information you've given with us. i've shared that with my grandson. he's 18. he knows about wall street. he knows about the -- what we call talking history, i try to keep that going. i would like to see reparations in my lifetime so i can pass it down. it's not much. like i said, the scale will tell you you can't put a price on what happened to us. >> antoinette, thank you. this is just a followup from mary on twitter. you can respond to both points, mr. johnson. when i first saw the postings about the tulsa massacre, i thought it might be some sort of a horror click bait, some exaggerated story meant to rile people. after all, i never even heard one thing about it. how could something like that happen and i did not know? i was angry that i didn't know. so to mary's point and to antoinette from philadelphia, your response.

>> you know, i hear that all the time. particularly people in oklahoma who are angry they are from this place yet don't know its history. i hear that as often or more often from people who are white than people who are black. it's really important to understand that we have been cheated out of something if we don't know our history. we've got a lot of remediation to do and a lot of catching up to do. the caller's point i think really goes to the issue of trauma, and the need for us to acknowledge that we have been traumatized and to perhaps convene listening sessions around that trauma to understand the full extent of the trauma. what is missing, what is absent? what do we need to shore up because of that trauma? we know we need to do a better

job of educating ourselves and others. but are there other things that we need to help us get through this life given the trauma that has befallen us. in terms of reparations, there are conversations going on all over the place with regard to reparations. of course, reparations for slavery. i believe the bill was successfully passed in the house that would initiate a study of reparations for slavery. part of a subdiscussion in that regard is a discussion of incidents throughout the united states like the incident in tulsa and what does that mean in terms of our reparations conversation. these are conversations that need to be had. it's hard history. there are differences of opinion. but if we recognize and value and listen to others, i think there's a way forward for us. i don't know what the future holds in terms of caste

reparations. when we think about reparations, it's important certainly to think about caste reparations to individuals, but that is perhaps the most sticky wicket because the devil is in the details as to who gets what and what proof is required and all that. it's not that it can't be done. it's difficult. there are other forms of reparations that we could be working on on parallel tracks. these are more communal, collective types of reparations, scholarships, other educational enhancements, facilities that are educational like museums and so forth. we need to be working on all those things and not put all our eggs in one basket. again, they're complementary, not contradictory. they're not mutually exclusive. let's look at all possibilities in terms of reparations and pursue them all vigorously. >> there is an incredible

moment, you can catch it on the c-span video library. at the age of 107, viola fletcher, who was 6 1/2, 7 at the time, remembering what happened in 1921. she came to washington, d.c., provided her testimony. we heard a portion of it a moment ago. the full video is available on our website at c-span.org, incredible on some many different levels, especially at the age of 107. she is completely lucid and recalls in great detail exactly what happened. hannibal johnson, i want to ask you about john hope franklin, a name you mentioned before. a park and a freeway named after him. first, who was he, and what role did he play in all of this? >> john hope franklin was an imminent historian, a son of tulsa. his father, b.c. franklin, was a lawyer who just moved his law offices here to tulsa from wren teaseville when the massacre

happened in 1921. there is an iconic paragraph of b.c. franklin and another lawyer and a staff person working out of a tent after his law offices were destroyed in the massacre. john hope franklin, b.c. franklin's son, grew up in tulsa, graduated from historic booker t. washington high school in 1931. he was valedictorian. the valedictorian of tulsa central high school, mr. borston, he and mr. franklin were honored at a ceremony at -- i believe the mayo hotel. these are valedictorians, one from the black school and one from the white school. in his memoir "mirror to america," john hope franklin talks about the fact that these are both valedictorians, yet at

the ceremony honoring the two of them, he is forced to sit in an anteroom outside the main hall. again, this is for a ceremony honoring him, because of the rigid segregation that existed in tulsa. so john hope franklin, went on to have a distinguished career, went to harvard, taught at university of chicago, ended his career at duke university as professor emeritus. he is the imminent historian of black history and, again, a sun of tulsa who visited park. john hope franklin reconciliation park named for him and a center that works on intercultural for race relations, named in his honor, somebody we should all know. >> we're hearing from current and former residents of tulsa, oklahoma. our next caller is a former resident of tulsa.

mansa, welcome to the conversation. >> caller: good morning. i'm an aboriginal american, indigenous american. a lot of the history the scholar is trying to recite is history that happened before the -- after the european presence came here and -- these why terminology and words are important. we wasn't called african-americans. that was created around the time jesse jackson was running for president. we were called moores. terminology is very important because a lot of history evolved in what we were really called. the moores americans at the time, a treaty was the newly formed u.s. government called the moores treaty which we

should be going by, still in existence as we speak. it wasn't no five tribes. the five tribes were -- newly formed u.s. government only acknowledged five tribes. there were hundreds of tribes. the newly formed u.s. government only acknowledged five tribes. that had something to do with the kidnapping of pocahontas and her coming back being christian. this was a muslim country. we did muslim religion. and then when pocahontas was kidnapped and came back a christian, it changed -- we started having the north american practice of christianity, and they only acknowledged the five tribes out of the hundreds of tribes that were here. >> thank you, mansa, we'll get a response. hannibal johnson. >> he makes an interesting point

about the five civilized tribes. obviously that language is somewhat controversial. they were called the five civilized tribes because these were the tribes that ak culture ated to european ways most readily. interestingly and ironically, one of those ways to which they acclimated themselves was chattel slavery. again, the five tribes engaged in the practice of chattel slavery. he talks about the existence of additional tribes. of course there were many other tribes besides those tribes. in oklahoma we have -- i think the last count, at least 39 recognized tribes. so the five tribes are important because of their historical role in populating and resetting, forcibly, in indian territory which ultimately merged with what was called oklahoma territory to create in 1907 the state of oklahoma. >> nita is next, any cal pin,

florida. go ahead, please. >> caller: thank you for taking my calls. i watched the documentary yesterday, and i'm 59 years old, and this is the first time, all through school, my whole life that i have heard about this. and i think that the white people on the other side that started all this, their descendants should be giving back those lands that they took, and i'm sure those people that started all this have names on buildings and everything else. they've taught this family to do it again and again and again throughout the generations, and i really appreciate this conversation. i learned a lot in the last two days. thank you so much. >> nita, thank you. and park storm again, which is typical of many of the tweets we've been getting saying i also never learned about tulsa in school. it is not taught. critical race theory would

change that. does this surprise you, the sentiment we're hearing from our viewers and listeners? >> it does not surprise me. how do we know what we know? we typically know what we know, particularly around subjects like history, because it's something that we study in our textbooks, in our curriculum. curriculum. this is not something that's been included in text books for american history curriculum or oklahoma history curriculum until relatively recently, so that people do not know it is not surprising at all. and that is why i'm grateful for a series like watchmen, for example, that incorporates some of this history in pretty realistic and authentic ways, and i hope encourages people to seek out the full measure of this history. it's a window into the history

that i think is helpful because it piques the curiosity of folks and helps folks understand the importance of the history and forces them to ask questions like your callers and your tweeters are asking, why don't i know this. why wasn't this included in my curriculum. we all need to be asking that, and we all have agency, we have capacity to make a difference. we all are represented by school board members and elected officials. if this is something that we feel needs to be changed, then we have people whom we elect who can change it. so we have to exercise our agency and get it done. >> back in 1980, mosella franklin jones, a black woman, she was 14 at the time, recalling what greenwood was like before and after may 31st and june 1st, 1921. here is her firsthand account. >> it was booming and very

alive. and it continued to grow until the last. everything was just destroyed, not only the businesses destroyed, but many of the homes was destroyed. there were many professional people. homes were destroyed and looted. and then they began to -- that restricted them from building unless they met certain specifications like fire walls and so forth. then there was a law firm, franklin chappell who filed a $4 million suit for the people against the city, and they won the suit, and then the people began to rebuild, and, you know, after they began to rebuild in

1938, it looked better than it had ever been because most of the businesses had been revealed, larger buildings, and. >> that from mosella franklin jones, her firsthand account. our next caller is also a former resident of tulsa, cheryl now in los angeles, good morning. >> good morning, steve. i'm so glad you're back. first of all, i want to make a statement to mr. johnson. and the statement is -- am i on? >> yeah, you are cheryl, please go ahead. >> thank you. >> first of all, i noticed that we talk about reparations and i feel that we should never say we do not want a check. it's totally separate. we worked this land, built this country and for that and many

other reasons i feel that we should have a check aside from anything else. and then after we get reparations like the agents did when the war was on, and no one said anything about building schools or any of those things because that was totally separate. they had taken things from the japanese people, put them in a camp as they have done numerous times, and forbid us to work and all sort of things. so i feel aside from all the things, other things that we deserve and want, that's fine. and we should go after that, but first and foremost, they should give us a check without anything being attached to it, a check alone. and then after we get the check for our ancestors building this country, then i feel after that, then we can go after libraries and schools and all the other things that we need. but right now, i feel first and foremost we should get a check.

thank you for listening. thank you for having me on. >> cheryl, thank you. former resident of tulsa. you want to respond to that? >> well, certainly. yeah, sure. i have no argument with monetary reparations. i think i made that clear. i think there are parallel tracks where we're going to be looking at all aspects of reparations. when you say they should give us a check, who is they and how are we going to get the check? those are practical things that have to be resolved. the check has to come from somewhere, and there has to be a process of getting folks to approve the check and who gets the check and how much is the check. it's complicated. again, it doesn't mean that's not doable. it means that while we're working on cash reparations which are clearly morally justified, there are some other forms of reparations that we can

work on as well, which are less complicated, and more communal and collective and could benefit entire communities or the entire nation. so let's work on those as well. let's work on parallel tracks. it's sort of walking and chewing gum at the same time. it's that concept. it's that we don't have to limit ourselves to one remedy. there are multiple remedies, all of which are justified, some of us are going to be interesting in working on some things more than others. >> front page story this weekend in the "new york times" also available at nytimes.com telling the story of the tulsa massacre is the headline. with a lot of this media attention, are we getting the story right? >> that's actually a great question. are we getting the story right? so for me, it's always been

about the community and the people and the massacre is an event that happens in the context of the community and the people to the extent that because of a fixation on the massacre. now, i understand that, you know, this is commemorating the 100th anniversary of the massacre. i see that as an opportunity to bring people's attention to the full story. so understand the massacre, but understand the full story here in greenwood, understand the national context and understand the international and universal significance. >> and one final question, how is tulsa today, this week, and over the next few weeks commemorating what happened 100

years ago? >> tulsa's commemorating in a number of different ways. one of them, intimately involved with the opening of greenwood rising, a world class history center. we have worked with an exhibit design firm called local projects in new york city on this. they did the 9/11 museum, so it's going to be a wonderful facility that tells this complete story and draws a through line between the history and our present. encourages us to use the lessons of our history to challenge current issues around race. that's one way. we received a million dollar grant from bloomberg philanthropy to do what's called the greenwood art project, so there are installations of various types going on around the city even as we speak. going forward, there will be, i hope, a number of initiatives and dialogues, exhibits.

i'm sitting in the tulsa historical society and museum in the midst of a wonderful exhibit about the greenwood history, so this is just another opportunity for folks to come in, to learn, to grow, to take the lessons of our history as we move forward into 2022 amazingly. >> our guest author and historian, his books, black city 100 and also the author of the book black wall street, from riot to renaissance in tulsa's greenwood district. we want to thank the tulsa historical society, to allow us to share what happened 100 years ago. with half a minute left, what are your final thoughts about this anniversary? >> it's a solemn occasion. again, it's about commemorating

a massacre, but it's much more than that. it's about understanding the massacre's place in our national and international history. and ultimately, i always hark back to that universal imperative of recognizing our shared humanity. understanding, appreciating and valuing the dignity and worth of every other human being on this planet. if we do that, there won't be another 1921 tulsa race massacre. >> hannibal johnson joining us from tulsa, oklahoma, inside the historical society and museum.

>> we work >> you can watch the hearing referenced by speaker pelosi on the tulsa race masker by topping that into the video library search box on the homepage. we have other programs on the event. all available on c-span.org. tuesday, the washington post examines the tulsa race massacre with two curators from the smithsonian museum of african-american history and culture. live coverage begins at 12:30 p.m. eastern. later in the day, president biden travels to tulsa to mark the 100 anniversary of the massacre.