secretary lloyd austin on president biden's budget request for the pentagon. tonight on c-span. ♪ >> this week marks 100 years since the 1921 tulsa race massacre. historians believe as many as 300 black people were killed and 10,000 were made homeless after a white mob descended on the thriving black's nest district. the washington post -- thriving

black business district. a washington post reporter spoke about what happened 100 years ago and the lasting effects of the century-old massacre. >> good afternoon. welcome to washington post live. i am race and economics reporter at the washington post. we are speaking today with schola we are speaking today with scholars as the city of tulsa marks 100 years after the attack on a prosperous black neighborhood by a white mob. we are joint by two people from the national museum of black history and culture. thank you both for being with us today for this important conversation.

mary, tell us briefly about the black community of greenwood mary: the black community in greenwood represents the fulfillment of dreams. dreams of african-americans who looked at indian territory during the period of the land rush to see opportunity as a frontier for freedom. they saw space to escape from places where they saw violence and having to serve as sharecroppers, and they saw indian territory as a space to fulfill dreams of raising terror -- raising families, building institutions, businesses, and becoming self-sustaining. the killing what they saw as

their opportunity -- but filling what they saw as their opportunity to live out their dreams. tracy: a frontier for opportunity. you have a personal connection to tulsa, your uncle was a prominent businessman who knew booker t. washington. he owned a clothing store that newspapers described as being outfitted with marble floors and chandeliers. can you tell us more about him and the family business? mary: my uncle tj was a pioneer in the indian territory for african-americans establishing businesses. he was on the executive committee of the national niekro business league, and the head of the oklahoma state negro business league. he had eight siblings, the majority of which all had their own businesses as well, but tj was really significant in that

he spearheaded creating this on bella of businesses, including office buildings, hotel, they had 300 acres of land, and they had a department store. by the time of the tulsa massacre, the staller -- store was called elliott and hooker clothing store, 20 was in business. tj elliott was very much involved with the business around the state, and known as the merchant's prince. his clientele was black, white, and native american. tracy: we will talk more about him in a few minutes. paul, you curated the museum that depicts the resilience of the greenwood community. the museum's work is an

important part of filling the silence that has surrounded the master for too long. give us a brief overview of the chain of events that led a white mob to destroy greenwood's businesses, homes and community. paul: the chain of events that led to this massacre takes place along two timelines. one is this longer timeline of racial violence that was being perpetrated against african-american communities, much like the communities in oklahoma. that is taking place systematically towards the end of the civil war. not just in the american south in places like memphis and the louisiana, but also throughout the nation, and increasingly so into the 20th century. the red summer as it is known as 19 -- of 1919 saw it racial

massacre, significant events of mass racial violence in cities like washington, d.c.. chicago, illinois. arkansas. there is this ongoing drumbeat of violence that is accompanying a fast-cementing, systematic institution of white supremacy. there is a shorter timeline. that is what is happening nationally over the course of decades. but what is happening in the course of this vibrant community of greenwood, which is segregated, which is wealthy, is this increasing feeling of resentment on the part of white tulsans who are also newly emigrating to tulsa. what happens is a scenario that is almost a pretext for the

violence that ensues, which is that a young black man working as a shoeshine or in a white building in downtown tulsa has to use the restroom. he goes to the restroom and the only public space for african-american men to use. he goes down to the elevator, and something happens. perhaps he trips. he encounters the elevator operator, and she shouts. that is determined as many interactions, interracial between african-american men and white women as an assault, or perhaps attempted rape. this is an account that is recanted later by the young woman. it's a mythology that is born from cultural products that are circulating, and instances of

violence that are circulating around the nation. but it provides the community an excuse. an excuse to imprison this young black man, an excuse for when african-american men assembled to protect him and protect their community, to unleash what you had said is one of the most deadly massacres in american history. tracy: thank you for that very important national context. as we see, the false accusation of assault was also the pretext of many other massacres that occurred around the country. mary, you have an aunt. can you share her story for us? mary: i have an aunt who was 12

years old at the time of the massacre. she and her family were forced into the internment camps at the state fairgrounds. it was a white woman who employed her mother who went to the fairgrounds and was able to get them removed from the fairgrounds, and from there the family left and went to oklahoma city. she ultimately met my uncle. she was a social worker and educator, but very imploringly she was the first executive director of the washington bureau of the national urban league. she was part of the team that helps to cash along with martin luther king, lyndon b. johnson. tracy: i love getting to know about her story, and i am glad the world is getting to know it.

buck franklin wrote about his escape. he could not help but wonder at the time whether the city was in conspiracy with the mob. why did the local police and national guard joined the mob, and how and why were planes used in the destruction? paul: what you have across these two days, and frankly for the ensuing. as a pretext for the occupation, the destruction and the devastation of this black community. so when white mobs let's put it. us put it frankly. they invaded greenwood, setting fire and looting the neighborhood, the city deputized members of that mob en masse to "quell any riotous activity by

african-americans" who were in fact protecting their homes and families. so, the white mobs were deputized and given ammunition to carry out their act. that is what is happening here. in the immediate aftermath or even as a riot, the massacre is quieting in the days following june 1. the red cross is kept from entering to provide essential and immediate emergency relief efforts. they are prevented by doing so -- from doing so by the city government. tracy: what about the airplanes? paul: airplanes were in use during the massacre. buck frankland testifies in his accounts to airplanes and he is not the only one. multiple witnesses and survivors

talk about and have documented seven privately owned airplanes that are surveying and probably feeding information to people who are conducting violence, but they are also dropping incendiary devices, what they call turpentine bombs out of the planes. so buck frankland talks about buildings burning from the top down. tracy: they were being bombed. paul: yes. tracy: paul, can you talk about the loss of life and livelihoods in the immediate aftermath and the days and weeks following, the imprisonment of black tolson's who survived -- tulsans who survived. paul: it is important to put this in scale, we are talking about over one half -- 1000 homes and businesses leveled. we are talking about hundreds of people being murdered.

we will never know how many people. there is ongoing search is, archaeological services -- searches for mass graves today. we are talking about an immense amount of property, $1.5 million worth of property. as dr. hooker pointed out in her testimony that we heard at the top, it is more than just a neighborhood destroyed or businesses destroyed. it is the ongoing trauma that this event caused for people. that, not just rebuilding from this event but the systematic obstacles that are put in place by the city, by the state to prevent people from rebuilding, to prevent people from putting their lives fully together. and what we hear and what we should here is the way people did it despite the obstacles,

and that is one of the biggest stories that is needed to be told in the biggest silences. tracy: the city passed laws to make it more expensive and near impossible to rebuild. and black attorneys banded together to fight laws. mary, your family owned businesses and land in muskogee. how are they impacted, and how did they rebuild? mary: i am glad that you asked that question. one of the things that is powerful is that a cousin of mine, her family on the other of the family owned a funeral home. they had a business in tulsa, but they also had the business in muskogee. one of the things that happens to the point about the number of people who were killed is that there were bodies that floated down the arkansas river, and local residents ran to her

great-grandfather and said you have to come to the river because we have to get the bodies out of the river. it was that extensive. it was that extensive. and how they rebuild was -- you have to keep in mind that there is this network. i talked about the national negro business league, it is about these black networks that were a source of survival, whether it is a social network or a civic network or a business network, in this case it was the national negro business league, so all of these men and women pulling together resources to rebuild. it was four years after the massacre occurred that they held the annual meeting for the national negro business league in tulsa, meaning that all of the money would be spent for an annual meeting would be spent in businesses in the area that had been rebuild. it is very important to note the support of the larger black

community to help rebuild tulsa. tracy: why were people detained afterwords? what was the purpose of holding black residents prisoners, and how were they released? mary: my notion of them holding black prisoners is it is a land grab, it is a control issue, and i have to say this because i do not hear enough people talk about this. this was a gas lighting. you had people who build homes, businesses, schools, churches, they built communities and then afterwards these people are stripped of everything. they are forced into subservient positions, and the new narrative , which really is kind of like a renewed narrative is that they don't appreciate education, they do not have a sense of faith, they do not understand community, they do not like a

beautiful community to live in, they do not have entrepreneurial spirit and they do not understand business so they have to work under the intellectual white community members. tracy: right. they were not released until a white person came and vouched for them, right? as if they were the ones that were dangerously community. the truth of what happened was suppressed for decades until a special commission appointed by the oklahoma legislature appointed to investigate the measure had a 2000 page report in 2001 and then it was not taught in american schools. most americans had not heard about it until the hp owed miniseries -- the hbo miniseries "watchmen." when did you learn about it. paul, go first. paul: i learned about it in history class when i was taking it as a college student. that is the first time i had

heard about the tosa race massacre. it was called the tulsa race riot at the time. when i came to work for the museum, as we began to talk about the stories that we needed to tell, john hope franklin who is himself and oklahoman and tulsan. the preeminent american historian who is the son of buck kolbert franklin sat me down and talked about the importance of telling this story in our museum through the use of artifacts when we could find them, and the immense need of not just putting this story in the public's hands in terms of school curriculum, but the way in which these other incredibly valuable learning spaces, museums, and educational spaces where people of all backgrounds can come together needed to learn this story, and

that is really where my true education began. and then you meet people like mary as well. tracy: when did you first hear about this? mary: we had family reunions every two years and we talked about the strength of the family in oklahoma and indian territory but we did not talk about the massacre. it was not until the 1980's or 1990's when the story came forward about rosewood, and that is when i started to learn about the tulsa massacre. the other thing is that i did not know that my aunt was a survivor until after she died. i read about in her obituary. and what i imagine is that the pain of having to recount those stories is like reliving it. so, part of what brought me to this museum was i wanted to know more, i wanted to know more about my family, about african-american history, and about these nuances, and lived

experiences that have so long been pushed to the side or covered up. tracy: in the museum collection there is a chair that was reportedly looted from a black church during the massacre. how do objects like this testify to memory and loss? paul: i think this is a great example of an object that not only testifies to memory and loss, but also becomes an opening to talk about how we value history. how we talk about wealth, how we talk about what is lost, not just memory, but what was lost. what was the effect of that loss? and, how can we think about restoring the loss and actively think and talk about repair? so this chair, which was found in a consignment shop from one

of our friends in tulsa, vanessa adams harris, a playwright who has written a play using the testimonies from survivors and witnesses to the race massacre. she donated this chair to the museum, and i think it really becomes a way of talking about what we still have to understand about our past. it is also a tremendous window into the story of black churches and spirituality. both as the targets of racial violence of which there were at least eight churches that were burned to the ground during the massacre. but also as sites of sanctuary, not just during massacre but in the relief efforts. the ways in which churches galvanized themselves with businesses to provide relief

immediately, even before the red cross could come in. there were churches advertising sometimes through the black press nationally to help the brothers and sisters in greenwood recoup and reclaim themselves and peace their lives back together. this is an example of an object that can do so much work. tracy: you also found postcards, some showing earning corpses. why were these postcards depicting such gruesome violence, and why were -- what was the point of these postcards? mary: i think we -- paul: i think we have to understand the nature of our history of racism in this country. certainly during this time, there were hundreds of lynchings of african-americans, mostly men across the nation. up through the 1920's and 1930's, and even today the u.s. senate is trying to pass an

anti-lynching law. we have to recognize that these kinds of acts of violence, whether they were on a mass scale or individual scale were reinforced in culture, through things like postcards that were circulated and celebrated by people who were enacting and participating, and witnessing these forms of violence. and that was their purpose. they were created as instruments of terror. to strike fear into people. now, what is massively important about them is that over time, if treated carefully and with respect, those same instruments of terror can be used as evidence for legal evidence, but also evidence of what happened, so that we can look history square in the face with clear eyes.

tracy: you spoke about the role and importance of black churches in helping the community rebuild afterwards. i would like to hear more about the importance of the black press. we know that the mob violence was insulted by the "tulsa tribune" that falsely reported a black teenager had assaulted a white coral -- girl. what about the role of the black press in documenting the truth and what happened? mary: it is extremely important because, as paul mentioned, at the time the social climate, the competing voices in the public arena, and you have racist commentary and a segregated nation placing african-americans and second-class citizen positions, so you have the black press like "miss goni senator," -- "muskogee senator,"

and news journalists like ida b. wells, who are fighting to push out the truth, and tell the truth of the lived experiences of african americans, their accomplishments and the violence that they are facing. you cannot -- and the "tulsa tribune" countered with the language in the black dispatch, and so roscoe is writing only on june 12 about thousands of people leaving tulsa. but you also had "the muskogee senator" and "muskogee phoenix" where that is where one person's mother found out about the massacre. what is extremely important is that many of these news men and women were attorneys. so, they understood the

political and civic, and social implications of all of it. so, it was a form of educating the public as well. tracy: the state appointed commission on the massacre recommended in their report that reparations be paid for the lives and property lost. their investigation of insurance claims and lawsuits filed yielded a conservative estimate of under $2 million in property loss which is about $29 million in today's dollars. no black property owner was compensated. instead they were presented a goldplated medal. should tulsa victims and descendants be compensated? mary: i can only speak for myself. i think that the conversation about reparations is important, because that is what you are talking about. and this is probably one of the

best cases that as paul talked about, the evidence is very straightforward. you see where people unapologetically documented the violence that they metted out, and the destruction that they did to this community. and so, my thinking is that i have no idea where to start with reparations, but i do know that the conversation needs to happen, and i think it is imperative that we recognize that people were never made whole, and that is a legal term to be made whole again and that has yet to happen. took close, are there other chapters of our history we need to examine more closely as a country? >> of course there are more chapters that we need to explore, and i think this very question that you raised is one of them, and i'll just leave it

there. there is so much we need to bring to light but the whole question of reparations, we need to understand in a broader context. there were reparations paid to white owners of businesses in the immediate aftermath of the tulsa race massacre. those who deputized members of the mob took ammunition. those people work quote unquote made whole and the legal terms. no one else has been made whole. we need to understand that the conversations around repair is an unexplored topic, repair beyond just money but the topic of reparations itself is one that we need to understand in a bigger, broader context. reparations have been compensated and reparations have been made to former enslavers. these two people who work former

business owners, and i think that if we are going to have a qualitative and important conversation about repair, we need to be thinking in these kinds of terms, and i'll leave it at that. >> the reparations have been made to white business owners whose property was lost and white enslavers whose copy was quote unquote freed but not to black people who were enslaved or black people whose lives come whose property were lost. >> those are the facts on the table. >> mary, are there other points of history you feel need to be unearthed for our country to have honest reckoning with the state of our country? mary: all of this is connected. none of this can be viewed in a vacuum. so i think particularly about law and how the law has shaped where we are in terms of looking at race and how it has impacted

african-americans and what important is to look not just at the law on its face but the intention the hind the law, reading the records of debate and looking at the impact of the laws and i think we need to do a better job of that, because these things have long-term effect. i think that's very important. the other thing i would say is yesterday we commemorated, looked at memorial day. it is a day to reflect on those who were in the military and died in more and veterans and i think about the black veterans who were essentially fighting a war on u.s. soil just to fight for their lives in the lives of those who lived in the community . i think it's imperative we look

at these different moments in history and as a museum does, to look at this history through the african-american lens so we have a more nuanced, powerful understanding of our american story to empower us and to reflect. >> those are powerful words. unfortunately, that is all the time we have today cared thank you for speaking with me. >> thank you. it was a great conversation. >> thank you for being with us today. join my collie >> on sunday, maxl

be our guest on in-depth. >> the fall of saigon inflicted humiliation upon the planet's most powerful nation. revolutionaries have prevailed. the stairway of which on the evening of the 29th of april,

fugitives ascended to a rooftop helicopter. for me, as for all my generation, the struggle was among the foremost experiences of our careers. i was one of those who flew out of the u.s. embassy on that day. >>'s most recent book is operation pedestal. other books include catastrophe. chastise. and overlord. join in the conversation with your phone calls, texts and tweets on in-depth, live at noon eastern, sunday with max hastings, on book tv, on c-span2, and be sure to visit c-span shop.org to get your copies.