greene medford, and amity shlaes discuss the results of the most recent historians presidential leadership survey next. ♪ host: good morning, it is sunday, july 4 2021. we deep dive into c-span's latest historian survey of presidential leadership. but first, a question for you about american pride. we want to know if you are proud to be american and if so, what about this country is the source of that pride? if you say yes you are proud, (202)-748-8000. if you say no, (202)-748-8001. if you are unsure,

(202)-748-8002. you can also send a text at (202)-748-8003. if you do, include your name and where you are from. otherwise catch up on social media on twitter @c-spanwj and on facebook at facebook.com/c-span. this question we are asking, are you proud to be an american? as you are calling we will take you to the gallup organization. this was out a few days ago with the headline, american pride ticks up from last year's record low. talking about this is john clifton. take us through the results. how many say they are proud to be american? guest: john, thank you for having me and happy fourth of july do you. we have a concerning trend this morning. we ask americans every year how

proud are you to be american? this year we find that 69% of americans say they are proud or extremely proud to be american which is the second lowest figure we have ever seen in the history of our tracking. host: when you do that tracking how long have you been doing tracking and what was the highest amount of pride? guest: this is our 20th year of tracking this and the highest number we have ever seen in our history was after 9/11. it was 2003 when we saw 92% of americans said they were very or extremely proud to be american. host: this year's results, you broke it down along party lines. what did you find? guest: we find one of the big contributors to this decline comes from democrats and it started when trump became president.

before trump came into office a slight majority of democrats said they expressed a great deal of pride in this country, but in his second to last year it dropped down to 22%. since president biden has been an office that has rebounded to 31% although that is still one of the lowest readings we have seen in the history of our tracking. however, while republicans are and always have been very proud of their country we find 64% say they are very proud or extremely proud but that is down the past two years when 76% said they had a lot of pride in the united states. host: for visual learners, here is a chart of the breakdown by party from gallup.com. the top line, the redline, the

number of republicans in this survey that said they are extremely proud. going back to the year 2000. democrats on the blue line answering that question saying they are extremely proud and the gray line the independents. how else did you break these numbers down? what other demographics can we look at? guest: i think there are two other demographics. one is the demographic break between white americans and nonwhite americans. you see a nine point gap. white americans are more likely to express pride. one of the reasons that might be happening is what americans believe is one of the single biggest issues facing the country. every month gallup asks americans what they think the biggest problem is. the number one issue has been covid. that changed and though number

one issue now is the government but the number two issue is race relations. the racial injustices that exist in the u.s., and have existed for many decades, is one of the reasons you see that gap exist. host: what else have you polled on? what can you tell us about gallup's work? guest: i think while this is depressing news, that the pride in the united states is not where it has been historically, there is good news. gallup conducts surveys in over 140 countries every year and we ask people, would you like to leave your country permanently? we find roughly one in seven people would like to permanently leave their country. but the people that want to leave we ask the follow-up question, where do you want to go? the number one country in the world where people would like to relocate is the united states. 150 million people around the

world would like to become americans. if there is anything we should celebrate, it might be that. host: what about americans' knowledge of their own past on this independence day? guest: the fourth of july is a good time for us to reflect on our history as a country, especially because we have some americans not familiar with it. one time we asked to survey and said, what is it we are celebrating today? we found 15% of americans don't know. in fact, we also ask people who is it america won independence from? over 20% cannot name it. naming countries like mexico or canada. host: john clifton is the global managing partner at gallup. for folks who may want to answer some of these questions, how do you choose participants?

people say, i could answer this question. how did they get a call from gallup? guest: in the united states we do random digit dial. we call landline telephones and mobile phones. unfortunately one of the challenges is the chances getting called by gallup are rare. a long time ago i asked our founder, what is the likelihood of being called and he said about the same likelihood of being struck by lightning. it is very challenging to be one of our participants as we call 1000 people. host: gallup.com is where you can find this survey, all the surveys, and john clifton, we appreciate it. happy fourth of july do you. guest: john, thank you for having me and happy fourth. host: asking viewers in the first hour are you proud to be american? if you say yes, (202)-748-8000.

if you say no, (202)-748-8001. if you are unsure, (202)-748-8002. tim says yes, columbia, maryland. why? caller: i am proud to be american but at the same time we have a delicate gift we are given. we have to make sure we look after that and one of the challenges is polarization. race issues you mentioned earlier have been around hundreds of years. but polarization has gotten even worse the last 20 years. each president is moving further away from protecting the delicate balance on both sides and trying to create an identity for all americans to feel proud of. it is very dangerous we politicized being american. we said, this is what american is, this is what american is not. respecting those traditions, respecting everyone's right to

celebrate or advocate for their own identity as american is what is so precious. that is why i am proud to be american but it is a delicate thing that needs to be looked after and requires some restraint on both sides. i hope next year we can exhibit more restraint in each other's identity and respect for each other's identity. host: trent in monroe, louisiana for those who say no. caller: i was pretty disappointed in our historians that put donald trump is one of the worst presidents in history. you want to hear my 62nd thesis and why i think 3 to 5 years he will be viewed as one of the top presidents? host: give me 60 seconds but we will give you more in the next

hour. caller: the country's founders were deep thinking about old testament law being the framework of a democratic theocracy that could fight a democratic socialism. donald trump's ancestors were leaders in the revival of scotland. like a lot of us donald trump falls away from the lord but he is coming back, especially as he got the most powerful office. he says early on in presidency, i have the greatest advisors, counselors, consultants you have heard of. the leaders are heads of a covenantal community. if trump's populism synthesizes with this theological move, it

could form -- it could turn the world upside down like the early church. let's all have historians chew on that. host: we will be chewing on it quite a bit from 8:00 until 10:00 eastern. we are talking about c-span's historian survey of presidential leadership. it is our fourth survey. we release it every time there is a change in administration. you can join the conversation starting at 8:00 a.m. eastern. that was trent with perhaps a preview of the discussion we will have. the question in the first segment, are you proud to be american? don says unsure out of miami, florida. why? caller: happy independence day to everyone. host: same to you. caller: thank you. i travel a bit and people ask me what place do i like going --

which place do i like to visit? i always like going back to miami. things i have noticed when we invaded the sovereign country of iraq, and i am talking about from around the world, they thought that was a nasty thing to do. other countries also wonder about our fetish with guns and finally, when trump first started to run for president everybody would laugh. he was a clown and then when he was elected it became an embarrassment. i am happy to be american. i am very lucky. thank you very much. host: this is lileen out of florida. caller: nice to talk to you. i am proud to be an american. i came to this country in 1968.

i became an american in 1973. i have been very proud since then, happy. i have had a few chances to get jobs. i live and again, it is always good to come home. host: what country did you come to america from? caller: trinidad in the west indies. host: do you remember the day you became a citizen? did you participate in one of the naturalization ceremonies? caller: yes, i did. the court in brooklyn. it was in september. host: what do you remember about that day? caller: there was a few people,

very dear friend of mine came from new jersey and stood up with me. another friend, two people, a man and a woman, and a lot of people were there. indian and black people and white people and we all swore. i think the judge's name was o. r. something. it looks like i became a citizen before you are born. [laughter] i am 81. it is a long time ago. host: thank you for the call. happy fourth of july. it was president biden who on friday attended a naturalization ceremony with essential workers, military servicemembers. that taking place at the white house. here's a few of president biden's remarks. [video clip]

>> i am often asked by world leaders, particularly autocrats, how can i define america? i was with xi jing ping and it was a private meeting and his translator. he said, can you define america? i can in one word, one word, "possibilities." that is one of the reasons why we are viewed as being somewhat egotistical. we believe anything is possible in america, anything is possible. i think about my own family's journey here. at least two thirds came from -- got on a ship in the irish sea back in 1849 having no idea

whether they would make it across the atlantic to the united states. but if they did, they could do better. and they did. they did better and they built a life and raised a family in scranton, pennsylvania. here i stand on the shoulders of sacrifices of my great great grandfather, great-grandfather, and just all that they did because they believed. they believed like you believe anything is possible. i want to thank you for choosing us and i mean that sincerely. thank you for choosing the united states of america, believing america is worthy of your aspirations. host: that was president biden on friday at the white house at a naturalization ceremony. we are asking you, are you proud to be american? phone lines for those who say

yes, no, those who are unsure, and we are looking for media posts. steve duncan on twitter, i am proud to be american. the problem is the parties have too much power. they are pulling us away from the constitution and our rights, especially the right to vote. we put too much care on the military instead of putting into the bore. -- putting it into the poor. from pennsylvania this is steve, in the sense we are making it up as we go along? i'm proud to be an american. contrast that with ancient cultures who expressed a foolish false pride with nothing much new to show. i'm proud to be an american because we strive for excellence in all things not just rest on our laurels. mike says, very proud but concerned about all the misinformation that is pushed by trump. dan says, the new york times is

questioning the american flag now. spending the first hour of the washington journal asking you, are you proud to be an american? rich, kingsport, tennessee, how would you answer the question? caller: good morning. i would have to say no. since 1973 i am 67 years old and since then we have aborted, legally, nearly 70 million human beings and i would make that analogous to the german citizens in 1945, are they proud to be german? it is just a moral atrocity that decides our opposed ideals.

until that is resolved i cannot see being proud to be an american in a country that allows that. host: what is your outlook on the abortion issue, especially as the case is moved to the court system into the supreme court? caller: i see greater leeway for states -- i can see a weakening of roe. i don't think it will ever be overturned but it is possible. that is the president who supports abortion even though he says he personally opposes it which he never explained the contradiction. there is always the possibility

and i do believe, as a believer, i think hearts can be changed. there will never be a consensus but perhaps in the future we could see a return to sanity. host: this is pat in loveland, colorado. good morning. pat, you with us? got to stick by your phone. we will go to pat trick in greenville, south carolina. caller: i am not proud to be an american because america has yet to acknowledge the fact they have done atrocious things to the country. you see today the restriction of voting rights, blaming it on the democrats, and they will quickly go to another country and invade

. they are doing the same thing here in america. host: patrick in south carolina and this is larry out of illinois. are you proud to be american? caller: hello? host: are you proud to be american? caller: i am proud to be american. host: do me a favor and turn your television down and tell me why. caller: i am a voter. [indiscernible] my name is larry and i'm proud to be american. host: that was larry out of illinois. from the senate floor from late last month this is senator james lankford. this is one of the last days before the july 4 recess.

asking americans to recommit themselves to the cause of freedom. [video clip] >> on december 23, 1776 thomas payne wrote these words, "these are the times that try men's soldiers. the sunshine soldier will shrink but he who stands by it now deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered, yet we have this consolation that the harder the conflict the more glorious the triumph. what we have obtained we esteem to lightly. it gives every living thing its value. heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods and it would be strange indeed if so

celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated. it is a good thing for us to reflect on these simple words. "what we attain to cheap." i think we have forgotten the sacrifices of previous generations. in our time and in this wealthy moment in our nation's history we seem to esteem too lightly that that was attained too cheaply and forget the great sacrifices of the past. generation after generation of american history has set an example of how we have worked for a more perfect union. generation after generation has served each other and the

children that come after them. so that they could have a better future. it is our generation's turn. the generation i speak of could have never dreamed of the capitol that stands on this hill. the generation i speak of could have never dreamed of 50 states that would cover this continent, but they didn't dreamed this. it is in thomas payne's introduction, the cause of america is in great measure the cause of all mankind. this fourth of july we should recommit ourselves to the cause of freedom, the future of our nation, and the service to our children and the children not yet born. we are still a great nation conceived in liberty, born to greatness. if we are willing to work and sacrifice and give for each other, no generation in the

history of the world has inherited more than we have. no generation. should not receive it too cheaply or hold it too lightly. host: that was the republican of oklahoma quoting thomas payne. this is the back page of the sunday opinion section of the new york times. a reprint of the declaration of independence. that document right there july 4, 1776 side and said "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they have unalienable rights, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. governments are instituted among men depriving just power and consent of the government, that whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these

ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it and institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form as to them should seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." taking your phone calls and asking you if you are proud to be american. for those who yes, those who say no, and those who are unsure. marion, ohio, good morning. caller: i am proud to be american when we work together to do a good thing like a good football team. the problem we have is when we open the barn door and don't take care of people who want to step across the line and come to our country. they only want to help to our country to do wrong. we have to sort that out and the other thing is we save billions of dollars when we have people come into our country that want

to work on the team to do good things. but the problem we have is how much we have to spend in order to go after the people who really don't want to be here and pay a lot for it. the other problem we have where we step across the line on abortion and ask taxpayers to reach into the pocket with a gun to say they have to pay for abortions. no one has a right to tax you to do a crime and that is what is going on. i will hang up and listen to your comments. host: this is william out of chicago. you are proud to be an american? caller: good morning. i am proud to be an american because i am a veteran, i am on the fringe of finishing my phd in american studies, and i am african-american. i come from my maternal

grandmother who was a sharecropper with only a third grade education. that is the reason why i am proud to be an american, because of her willingness to make sure i had the opportunity to receive an education. i did want to point out we need to be forthright. i am a student of history and we need to tell all sides of history. we cannot talk about freedom without talking about the issue of slavery and the issue of jim crowism. we need to be honest with each other. that is the only way we can make a better country.

i do have a question to ask if i may? host: sure and i have one for you as well. caller: the issue of critical race theory, i was wondering if you could perhaps invite crimshaw? she created the theory of critical race theory or any of her students because there are misconceptions about that idea. host: william, we always appreciate guest recommendations. we had a roundtable on the issue of critical race theory and i want to say it was the beginning of last month but it is one we will talk about again. thanks for that recommendation. do you mind if i ask how old you are? caller: yes, i am 36 years old. host: headline from the new york post heading into this july 4,

young americans need to appreciate the good fortune they take for granted. i wonder your thoughts on this appreciation of american history , what it means to be an american, among young people today. caller: with respect to your queries, and hopefully i can articulate, i think we have to define what is history first and foremost. i am going to be your case in point. there is a conversation about the alamo. the question is, are we going to listen to both sides of the alamo? i think once we have a full understanding of the alamo i think that is the start of having appreciation of american history.

one can look at how did the indigenous people feel about the alamo? how did the enslaved blacks feel about the alamo as well as the anglo-americans? i think we need to have that approach and do not attack sides. if it is not perfect, we attack that perspective. i hope i answered your question. host: william, when you talk about the alamo, are you referring to that book, "the rise and fall of an american myth." caller: absolutely. host: that book getting a lot of attention. that was william out of illinois this morning. the headline we quoted about young americans, it stems from this op-ed in the new york post coming out yesterday. this is part of what he writes,

as we approach another independence day why do many of us think what we have here, freedom and safety, is normal in the course of human history or even the world today. a little perspective is in order. as americans we are heirs to a great inheritance few people have and few across human history can even imagine. on july 4 every day a little gratitude is in order for those who got us here. let's honor them by protecting all that is good and making it even better then we found it. that was fabienne in the new york post. rafino, are you proud to be an american? caller: good morning, john. at first i was very patriotic. i was named after my uncle who died in world war ii on d-day.

my brother died in vietnam and so i felt patriotic but last year it was very strange. i was driving down interstate 80 here in omaha and this cop followed me for like 20 miles, trapped me behind the truck and then gave me a ticket for following too close. anyway, i did have marijuana so i had to go through all that stuff now with the legal stuff. they died for our rights and i

felt violated for being an american. i decided i would protest for george floyd. i got gassed, i got shot with those bullets. thank you. host: rafino talking about his family's history of military service. it was on the senate floor late last night dan sullivan of alaska talked about the u.s. military, it service in the cause of freedom. this is a bit of what he had to say. [video clip] >> there is a saying in the korean war memorial etched in stone that says, "freedom is not

free." the sacrifices of our military are something all of us going to be thinking about over the course of the fourth of july week, weekend, as we celebrate and commemorate american liberty, american independence, and american freedom. our military has helped us provide that both here at home but also abroad. the president and i had the opportunity to go on a congressional delegation with two of my colleagues, senator kunz and senator duckworth, a couple of weeks ago to south korea and taiwan. it doesn't matter where you are from an america, whether you are democrat or republican, when you go overseas and you go to countries like that, countries and places that literally exist

because of the sacrifice of the american military it makes you humble and makes you proud. south korea, taiwan, vibrant economies, vibrant democracies, and if you know the history, those two places wouldn't be that way if it work for the sacrifice -- were not for the sacrifice of tens of thousands of americans. whether it is those places or places at home or in europe or asia that the united states has been one of the most powerful forces for liberating humankind from oppression and tyranny from any other force in the world. think about it. hundreds of millions of people across the world and in our own country over the decades have

been liberated by men and women wearing the uniform of the united states. as we contemplate the fourth of july week, weekend, that is something every american can take pride in and should take pride in. host: dan sullivan the republican from alaska on the senate floor heading into the july 4 holiday recess. we are taking your phone calls for the next 20 minutes asking are you proud to be an american? this is the 240th birthday of americans. those who say yes, (202)-748-8000. those who say no, (202)-748-8001 . if you are unsure, (202)-748-8002. this is scott on facebook, i'm not proud to be an american. i was born here to incredible parents and have enjoyed every privilege.

pride isn't necessarily a good thing because it can blind us to our failings and give us a false sense of superiority thereby impeding growth and progress. this from bob in connecticut, not very proud this year because of political corruption and treatment of police, destruction of cities. this from jackie in pennsylvania, we've given thought to move to canada but we decided to move to erie instead. it was the part of our climate action plan with inaction on climate fossil fuel production being the main reason for our disappointment. this on twitter, my family arrived and what would be the united states of america in 1650 and fought in the civil war. i still dream we can become the nation our declaration promises. i know we are not there yet.

this from dale in florida, congress and many local politicians and mayors and governors are such a huge downer. the rift between political parties -- shane in lakewood, california says he is proud. caller: i am proud to be an american but i want to say thank you to all that served before us, during and in the future. you laid down a great sacrifice. but my main point is we have got some tough conversations as americans to face and we need to have them in a civil way. lately it has been getting out of hand and we need to sit down and talk. host: how do you do that? how'd you bring down the temperature and get people to talk with each other? caller: that will be one of the main questions everyone will face but we need leaders of all

races, religions to come together and talk it out. but it's going to be tough but i believe we can get there. host: that was shane. this is brad out of london, kentucky for those who say they are unsure. go ahead. caller: i am certainly thankful to be an american and that has to be thankful for our men and women who have served over the years that provide us this place to do this thing that is the united states of america. there are a lot of them out there that have come back from a war zone with injuries, mental and physical. we all know over 20 of our veterans kill themselves every day and today we need to think

about these men and women who have sacrificed what they have had. they have been unselfish with their own lives and their own time which is not easy to do or understand, but they have given freely and that is the reason we have this place. even all the way back to valley forge where they walked barefoot in the snow and blood would fill the puddles where they walked. all the way up to the civil war where in church houses that were made into field hospitals they stacked arms and legs up to the windows high. that includes our early 20th century veterans, are world war i and world war ii veterans, korea, vietnam, all of our middle east conflicts. these men and women, this is

their day. they have given us this gift and in turn we owe the maintenance in keeping this thing together to them. we need to focus on that and think about that. host: how are you going to mark the day in london, kentucky? caller: the way i am most thankful and show them my appreciation. i have two nieces and i am going to have a great day with them outside and intermittently i am going to think of these men and women whose families are out there today who are not having a good day because they are missing loved ones. i will think of them and try to have the best day i can and i thank them. host: hope you enjoy your day with your nieces. paul in chesapeake, virginia. caller: good morning.

i would like to say i am proud to be an american. i have traveled around the world mainly because of my job. i mean, i have been in asia, europe, africa and i will tell you that i am so proud that i live here. and by proud i guess i am using that word to mean i am very appreciative, very glad. there is no place in the world i would rather live. many of the people who are calling in who are unsure, much of it has to do with political policy. as one gentleman alluded to earlier the ignorance of our history.

i would like to ask these other people of any other country if they are not happy living here, one of the country would they want to go to? the islamic nations have their issues and there is warlords all through africa. south america is in turmoil, eastern europe with the autocrats of the former soviet union. so yeah, my question is where would you rather be? and i am so appreciative to be able to live in this country because in my lifetime i can honestly say i have lost pretty much everything once and close to losing it twice and i have

been able to come back due to the opportunities this country has given me. host: that was paul in virginia this morning. 15 minutes left in this segment asking you, are you proud to be an american? from the atlantic from heading into this fourth of july weekend, art brooks with the headline, the happy patriot, the unhappy nationalist. no matter where you live patriotism can be authority subject. political division is ever more toxic. seemingly the only thing both sides can agree on is there country's ideals and institutions are a sham. populism and demographic is on the rise. ordinary people display patriotism at its best, a real and generous love of the fellow citizens. this can bring a nation back together around the commitment

to one another. a celebration that transcends disagreements and the belief progress is possible together. michael in the empire state on those who say no, they are not proud. why not? caller: i am in my heart but not right now in the present. from day one hour country was founded on a lie. white men, and i am white, white men were preferred. the constitution is talking about black people and animals or nonhumans on the farm. it continued for 400 years. i am so tired of it. humans have to treat each other with respect and dignity.

these people who are on the insurrectionist side, they have no idea what that means. thank you very much. i agree with all the people who were on the emails recently. the last person i don't agree with. that is all i have to say. it is a very hard day for me. thank you very much. host: that was michael in new york. in the building over my shoulder a debate about the removal of confederate statues from the united states capitol and during that debate it was speaker nancy pelosi that brought up the fourth of july celebration of the birth of american independence, noting it is happening at a time when americans are coming to terms with the times liberty has been denied to many. this is what she had to say. [video clip] >> this weekend we observe the birth of our nation, the fourth of july, when americans joyfully

celebrate the birth of america's independence and the blessings of liberty. as we do so we solemnly recognize that those blessings have been denied to so many throughout our nation's history out of sheer bigotry and racism. this holiday while celebration is also an opportunity to take steps to right the wrongs of history starting here, right here in the u.s. capitol. that is why today we are passing legislation to remove statues of confederate officials and other advocacy's of bigotry and removing them from the u.s. capitol. as i've said before at the heart of our democracy the statues we display should embody our highest ideals as americans, expressing who we are and who we aspire to be as a nation.

monuments to men or people who advocated cruelty and barbarism to achieve such a plainly racist end are an affront. they must be removed. host: that was speaker nancy pelosi from tuesday. back to your phone calls on the washington journal. are you proud to be an american? susan in florida says yes. why? caller: i am proud to be an american. i am in my 70's. i have had a wonderful life here. i feel sorry for the people who send their kids to college is now. they spent $70,000, $80,000 a year to have them brainwashed. how awful is that? we have a whole generation of kids right now that say, oh god, i cannot stand america, it's awful. i think any one of those children need to stay in china

for at least a year. than they will come back and say, oh, my goodness, this is a free country. host: stuck on the line with me for a second. the new york times says it enlists the young,: fray national service including one year of military service for all adults that should be completed before the age of 25. that was jonathan holloway the president of rutgers university. his column is about doing that. he writes, it would channel the conservation corps and put young people in the wilderness, repairing the ravages of environmental destruction. drawn lessons of the peace corps and dispatch them to distant lands where they would understand the challenges of poor countries and for whom basic health and nutrition are aspirational goals. i wonder on your thoughts of

this year of mandatory national service. caller: great. i think it is great. i think it is wonderful. they should bring back the draft. they might not be able to do it because some of those kids get started lawnmower let alone go over to china. they want to be like the uighurs over there in the concentration camp? this is a free country. we have been free. let me tell you something, there is no race in this country. there is no race. this was only put in their minds. host: that was susan in florida. this is and grand mac it's -- this is eve in grand rapids, michigan. caller: good morning. i disagree with the lady that was just on. matter-of-fact, i am one of the

last kids of a sharecropper and i want you to know that those people worked from sun up to sun down with my oldest sibling. i missed school 65 days because i stayed home as a six-year-old to take care of the younger ones. i want you to know out of all of those people, the 11 people in that family, i am the only one that went to college and graduated. others went but they didn't finish. i am the only one that went unfinished and i want them to know, no, we do not celebrate the fourth of july because we were not liberated in 1776. juneteenth was just put in place for the african-americans but as for the caucasian americans they may think like that because of the way they are treated. no. i am not proud of the united

states. host: how did you celebrate -- how did you note juneteenth this year? caller: i went to an hbcu and we were taught long ago, we were also taught about the 1619, we were taught about critical race theory or whatever. all those things were taught but at the same time we never thought about the fact that we was free. we went through a whole generation like i said. the particular age i am now, i have seen a lot of things, i have observed a lot of things and this is a different world for the african-americans than

caucasian americans. different. who see it through different eyes. host: that was eve in grand rapids, michigan. david in new brunswick about those who are unsure if they are proud to be an american. good morning to you. caller: thank you, sir and thank you for putting this issue to the public. thank you so much. i just remember the great words of malcolm x who said that he loves america the way a child loves a parent who beats her for nothing. and at the same time i am unsure i know the difference between china and the united states. i know the difference but that is not the issue now. these american states government is making a liar out

of my mother. i am 80 years old and she told me don't worry about the race problems in the south. look on our street. aren't we a league of nations here? is an everybody growing up speaking all the different languages? when you grow up things will be fine. last friday i was 80 years old and i cried today as i did then. america is somewhere in the future. america has not kept its great promise. please, we know the difference between china and the united states. we are fortunate to be born here but we are so far away from our potential. we argue that the election was stolen, attacking the basic

foundations of this country. free elections, the individual struggle, oh, there are other opportunities for us. we don't want to be born in china. don't say something as ridiculous as that. host: david, on our potential. if your mother were alive today, do you think she would see america moving toward that potential or are we moving away from that potential? caller: well, obviously 74 million people voted for someone who said barack obama was not an american citizen. that you can win 74 million votes by telling you that lie and demanding that obama prove he is an american citizen

instead of the accuser saying i have proof you are now an american citizen. he builds an entire political movement on attacking obama. please, america, come home. , home america -- come home america. host: last minutes in the segment of the washington journal. this is rosemary from facebook, yes, i am proud because think being an american means as citizens of this country we are constantly evolving and learning and growing because we have the freedom and ingenuity to do so. very proud to be an american says linda in new york. i just pray the greedy american stop robbing middle americans of our inheritance and our opportunities. lee on twitter say, i am not proud that income inequality is the worst.

corporations pay no taxes and upward mobility is behind france, the attempted coup on the government is supported by half united states. libby jane writing, i am proud when i consider other countries where i could've been born. i am truly blessed and thankful i was born in the united states of america. jeff in monticello, kentucky. you are next. caller: i am proud to be an american. i served our country. i joined up freely. what i am not proud of is the way our government is run these days. they should not be worried about the past and worry about doing stuff in the future. they don't need to be tearing down statutes and tearing down everything else. leave the past alone and take care of the people today and move forward. we don't need to be worrying about the past.

there is nobody alive left to worry about the past that lived through it. host: that is jeff in kentucky. time for a couple of more calls. i want to note on this july 4 president biden at first lady hosting their fourth of today with essential workers and military families this evening at the white house. the president expected to deliver remarks tonight and you can watch those remarks right here on c-span. amber to this question on are you proud to be an american out of massachusetts. you answered yes to that question. go ahead. caller: i am. i dissent from a member of the national society of the sons of the american revolution. i think a lot about that organization and the patriotism and just super proud of my family and grateful. proud and grateful mostly today.

thank you so much for bringing this up. host: do you remember the name of your ancestor? caller: i do not. my father passed away, and i was reading through ancestral records. it was a couple generations back. it is profound. it made me look at everything differently. doing a lot of genealogy, thinking back and -- host: what is something you have learned that has made it profound? caller: just how difficult it must have been. so many things. i am really moved. i guess it is because there is so much going on right now that is so divisive, so much conflict. host: ron in california, the last color in this segment.

go ahead -- caller in this segment. go ahead. caller: i cannot say i am proud to be an american, but i am grateful. i will put out my flag later today. i will raise a flag of travail. we -- host: i'm listening to you. hope and travail. caller: once again we are taking a good look in the mirror at our foundations, both good and bad. we have to see it all. i appreciate the caller before who brought up the fact that he is grieving as my over the fact that 74 million in of my fellow americans could follow alive but

that is us. we have to take a good look at our entire history, all of it. one thing about the truth is it will set you free but it will grieve you first. the truth will make us unhappy for a while, but if we deal with it, if we square off with it, we can most certainly be the more perfect union that we strive to be. host: on this fourth of july, up next a deep dive into c-span's latest historian survey of presidential leadership after the break. we will be joined by our panel, doug brinkley, edna greene medford, amity shlaes, and

richard norton smith. we will bureau back -- be right back. ♪ >> tonight, a look at presidents through the books they have written. >> you side in that quote that kennedy's father was the one pulling the strings behind the scene, but that is not true. jack kennedy wanted the blitzer prize. he told another historian "i would rather have a pulitzer --d rather have a pulitzer prize then be president." he wanted literary fame.

the pulitzer changed the equation. it made it an ethical question. leaders realized this to. when i was at the kennedy presidential library, librarians were sending him letters saying " did you really write this book? you wouldn't have accepted that prize if you didn't write the book, when you -- would you?" >> you can listen to q mende is a podcast anywhere you get podcast -- q&a as a podcast anywhere you get podcasts. ♪

>> washington journal continues. host: since 2000, every time there has been a change in administration, we have asked historians to participate in c-span's historian survey on presidential leadership. we are joined from texas by professor doug brinkley of rice university, from michigan by richard norton smith, via zoom by amity shlaes, and professor edna greene medford of howard university. thank you for joining us this morning. doug brinkley, start the

conversation by explaining the criteria we use here. how do we compare all the men who have held the office of presidency over more than 230 years? caller: c-span -- guest: c-span has put together a group on how to actually rank these presidents. this is not a scientific ranking, the purpose of it in many ways is to be fun, enlightening, may be to stoke conversation around the nation. what we really did do -- it is not just one ranking. you are breaking them up into categories. i will be judged on his foreign policy ranking or race relations or the environment or public persuasion, on media relations, you get the idea.

it is broken up into numerous categories. you go on a 1 to 10 scale in each of those categories. in the end we add them up. really, the top biographers, academic historians, journalists, they are all part of this survey. we tried to get around 150 to 140 people answering the surveys. we are proud of the list because we can know whittle over somebody we think should be ranked higher or lower -- all quibble over somebody we think should be ranked higher or lower. every year lincoln holds the top

spot. then you have presidents influx. the fact that dwight d. eisenhower has been able to corral that fifth spot is interesting. one wonders why. there was not all this talk about in eisenhower memorial on the mall. he had 2 terms. he could have had a third. the only time he used government troops was going into little rock on a civil rights endeavor. created nasa, the st. lawrence seaway, the interstate highway system, he was very moral, not a lot of corruption in eisenhower years. i could go on. you are seeing in the polling the rise of dwight d. eisenhower who was ranked in the middle not too long ago.

people thought he did not do much as president, but with the archives open we can see he was a hands-on president. the rise of eisenhower i found particularly interesting. he is now one of the american greats! host: round out the top 10, in sixth place truman, jefferson, reagan, the 10th spot this year, barack obama. president trump coming in at 41st overall, the first year he is part of this historian survey of presidential leadership. edna greene medford, why do this? is it helpful historically? guest: absolutely. it is always important to talk

about what is happening in terms of government aid or ship -- leadership. it is important to look at them over a period of time because historians like to view history from a far. we do not like to look at current events so much. if you look at the rankings of these presidents over a period of time, you get appreciation for how they are doing in terms 'of the country -- terms of the country's memory of them. the changes in ranking because of the passage of time. because each generation comes to its own conclusions about how successful these men hopefully someday women have been in terms of their roles as leadership in the country. host: the last two hours of our

program today talking about this survey of presidential leadership. you can join the conversation. republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. this is not c-span's ranking -- this is the ranking of 142 historians. who gets to be part of this survey? guest: there has been a concerted, and i would argue successful, effort since we began this back in 2000 to enlarge and diversify that academic electorate, if you will. there were 141 this time around.

that did not just happen. there was a deliberate effort on the part of the survey organizers to specifically -- i say diversify. to find more women, more people of color, more conservatives, because it is no secret, historians, academic historians and particularly political scientists tend to both left. -- bolt left. doug talked about the stability. stability is the first thing that jumps out of you, not only at the top of the list, but at the bottom of the list. the same three post-civil war presidents were deemed almost universally to have failed in the job where they were 20 years

ago and where they have been in every single one of these surveys. it is fascinating -- if you look at where the movement is it is not at the top or bottom of the list. it is in between. if you look at someone like andrew jackson who in the 20th century in the age of arthur sessions are -- arthur slashing her -- arthur slashing her -- in our ranking he is 28th. you leasees grant -- ulysses grant, the fact that he has surpassed jackson in the overall ranking is really revealing about the different criteria that are being applied 20 years on and to some degree of those

doing the voting. host: our last survey in 2017, andrew jackson was ranked 13th, 22 this year, ulysses grant up from 33 to 20. this is your first year of the survey you have been on this advisory team. what is your impression of the survey in years past in the previous surveys. what surprised you about being on it this year? guest: i am honored to be here to join the c-span team. the survey always impressed me because we included not only star academics, but also historians in the field who might not be phd professors so

we are glad of that. there is no snobbery, no guild snobbery at c-span, which has always been one of the strengths. as you look for serious people, at their work first, you get such a sound whole. i am vied to see the new diversity in the poll -- glad to see the new diversity in the poll. host: i want to get your reaction to donald trump's ranking. we do the survey every time there is a change in administration since figure 2000 . donald trump came in at 41st. he had his highest rankings in public persuasion.

your reaction to that 41st debut. guest: you have to ask where the historians as objective answering whether they would vote for him next time or were they ranking him? it is hard to rank recent people. look at the recent jump up of president george w. bush! that is one of the factors in the poll. you see president bush went up. you have to change lenses fast when someone moves to being history. president trump deserves a higher rank for economics, and i think history will bear me out on that. let's look at the other things -- you see jackson going down.

president trump -- jackson going down. president trump is more like jackson, an american cowboy. host: on donald trump's debut at 41st, we want to get your reaction. the categories we ask the historians to rank presidents on -- moral authority, international relations, vision setting, pursuing equal justice for all, and their performance within the context of the timess. do we give any further definition of what that should mean as historians make their rankings? guest: one of the problems is it is always best to have 25 years before you judge a president because that is when international archives release

documents through freedom of information act. you can start reconstructing a president. you will tend to see we will have a view of the trump presidency that may be different from what we have now. we have decided to include william henry harrison, who was only president for a month. that creates a line in the sand itself. you want to be below the president who was in the white house for one month and then died of pneumonia. that is where president trump finds himself. that means you did not help the republic forge forward. i thought trump would be fighting for the worst spot with james buchanan who was inert, inactive and trying to avoid the civil war, always

clinging to that bottom rung. trump has a chance to move upwards. his chances would be reelection. suddenly he is not a two-time impeached one-termer. his future is still wide open, president trump. maybe down the line he will arise for other reasons, when people look at the program forgetting vaccines distributed so quickly during the covid crisis. george w. bush who was very low, people assumed he would stay low because of the recession, what some people saw as reckless foreign policy, suddenly is rising. why?

people reflect differently. he scores well on moral authority, sort of the decency factor. this past year bill clinton and richard nixon fell some spots. you have to say why? because watergate was in the news so frequently, because the -- was being talked about during the double impeachment of trump. nancy pelosi said during the impeachments, " we are going to take trump in history. we may not remove -- taint trump in history." this poll shows that dent.

it successful, uniting of the nation,. host: plenty of colors already for our panel. -- callers already for our panel. if you want to follow along with these rankings, i encourage you to break out your laptop, go to your smart device and go to c-span.org/presidentssurvey2021. you can call in and ask about what you want to talk about. doug is up first out of wilmington, north carolina caller: happy fourth of july. it is an honor to do it -- talk with such a distinguished panel of guests. you talk about donald trump --

i think he is the worst ever! i think it started when he was in helsinki saying he believed put in our own fbi -- putin over our own fbi. the last year alone i think would make him last on the list. he was caught lying to bob woodward when he was saying " this thing was worse than i made it out to be, i just didn't want to panic anybody." are you serious? also the thing with the insurgents. people try to say that was a bunch of tourists? get your head out of you know where! that was an attack on our democracy there. here he is in mar-a-lago, saying, " i'm thinking of running in 2024 again."

host: edna greene medford, your response? guest: what we need to remember is that surveys are completed by human beings. we may be historians and people who are following presidential leadership, the changes at least -- we still have to remember this is very subjective, and people tend to respond based on their own beliefs and their views. that is why it is important to have a diverse pool of participants. he may have been lower if we had a different group of people. you may have been higher if we had someone else. we are pleased that this year's pool is so diverse.

we are close to where a lot of folks are at this point in terms of the ranking, but it can change by the next survey. trump could actually advance or decline. a lot depends on what happens in the next few months and years. there is so much going on at the moment. we have to wait for a while, and see what his legacy is going to be and how he does hold up. host: on this idea of presidents moving in subsequent surveys, here is a look at recent presidents and our last four surveys. president obama, his debut ranking 12th, his 2021 ranking

up to 10. george w. bush debuted at 36. in this latest survey, up to 29. president trump debuting at 41 st. steve, republican. guest: -- caller: i have a question for y'all -- how many showed up in florida last night to see the real president of america? anybody know the numbers? a lot of people showed up. host: where would you put president trump in a ranking of presidents? caller: to me he is the best president of my lifetime by far. he got 75 million real votes in

real life that actually happened, so i wish the media, you for part -- four media personalities would stop hitting me, my country -- hating me, my country, and my president. guest: i have been called many things but not a media personality. we will get that out of the way first of all. what this call illustrates is that we could spend all morning and the rest of the day and probably until the next fourth of julyre-debating -- july re-debating the issues of the last 4 years. i have suggested a 20 year rule,

where we probably should not try to assess presidential performance going back 20 years. if you stop to think -- go back to the beginning of the survey. every president since then unintentionally, but nevertheless because of the media climate, they have all been polarizing figures. they have been, in spite of their best efforts, divisive figures. nixon said it would take 50 years before anyone could write about him objectively. i don't think we need to wait 50 years, but i think there is something special about the presidents not only recent in time but also occupy as donald trump does a continuing element of polarization on both sides. i think that schemers that natural process.

right, as -- right amen at -- dwight eisenhower came in low chester aa -- below chester a. arthur. his papers came out and people found out he was more of an underhanded leader. that process generally tends to apply to presidents. they tend to be at the napier of their reputations when they leave office. it will be fascinating to see if donald trump who is unlike any other presidents turns out to be unlike other presidents in that respect as well. host: joe biden is the 46th

president of the united states. why is it only 1 through 44? guest: one man served as president twice. grover cleveland is one president. he is consider the 22nd and the 24th president. he is the only president in american history to serve nonconsecutive terms. host: you have karen out of tampa, florida. good morning. caller: my question is, for my statement i guess, is i think crisis management is the most important factor in the ranking of the president. i believeth -- believe if jfk was not president during the

cuban missile crisis, we would have ended up in a nuclear war with russia. i wonder if there is a weight ing to the other factors in the ranking? are some more important than others? also if you agree with me on kennedy -- the chiefs of staff wanted to go to work! did he actually save the world? host: jfk coming in at seventh in crisis management, eight overall in the rankings. amity shlaes, to karen's question? guest: we all know about kennedy and that war, but there are different crises. if you only code crises of

foreign policy, you also went to look at domestic crises like covid. there are two philosophies -- not all crises demand activity. some demand restraint. here i will talk about coolidge -- coolidge was a president who held back in a crisis. there was terrible flooding in the south, a terrible flood in his home state of vermont and he held back because he believed the state could handle the crisis. americans both want presidents to jump in during domestic crises and they don't. our heart is divided because our history is divided. we have a system of federalism. when people voted on crisis

management, it depended on their philosophy. do you always jump in during a crisis? do you always jump in and a certain way or do you hold back -- in a certain way for do you hold back? that is that they question. what is the definition -- that is the big question. host: that was a good transition into calvin coolidge. amity shlaes is on the board of trustees at that calvin coolidge presidential foundation. what should people know about calvin coolidge who do not know much about calvin coolidge? guest: i am broadcasting right from vermont! we have events going on right now at plymouth notch, president coolidge's humble village. today is coolidge's birthday!@ he is the only president born on

the fourth of july. last night we had a coolidge reenactor, and a coolidge birthday cake. i hope now that the country is opening up they come to the state historic site. coolidge was a specific federalist so he let the state be his government. i hope you come another year to celebrate his birthday with us on the fourth! host: born on the fourth of july! doug brinkley, do went to take the trivia of which president died on the fourth of july? guest: john adams and thomas jefferson. they were adversaries throughout life. they were great founders of our nation. we should be celebrating thomas jefferson today for the declaration of independence. ironically thomas jefferson on

his tombstone did not want to be known as the president of the united states. he was more proud of author of the declaration and being a founder of the university of virginia and other aspects of his career. jefferson i think should be higher than he has been coming out recently because of the one big thing he did -- the louisiana purchase when he doubled the size of america in one swoop of diplomacy. it is such a game changer what jefferson did. one thing i want viewers to understand is jefferson does not get credit in the polls for doing the declaration of independence because that was before he became president. on the fourth, john adams and jefferson, one of their i call it low simmering intellectual feuds was where did the american

revolution start? adams believed it began with the boston tea party and boston massacre, that it began. in massachusetts -- it began in massachusetts. jefferson clung to the idea that it was patrick henry that began it in virginia. their letters together should be mandatory reading. i consider them foundational texts. i would look to see -- at the jefferson-adams letters as a volume that tells us in a democracy you can hammer at each other, in these ugly, difficult elections and distill become friends and promote american --

still become friends and promote american democracy. we have seen bill clinton become friends with george walker bush. this magnificent biography of the ford and jimmy carter became incredibly close even though they ran against each other in 1976. this fourth of july we have to celebrate calvin coolidge. i wish i was up there at plymouth notch in vermont. it is important to think that founders for having the ideas of this democracy we love and cherish so much. host: thomas jefferson ranked number seven on this year's survey and in every survey. stability at the top of this, abraham lincoln coming in first

in every poll we have done. the bottom three, pierce,, johnson, and buchanan. those are always the bottom three. richard norton smith, take larry out of illinois, independent. caller: good morning,, everyone. i wonder -- you were talking earlier about the rankings and how they change. i would like some opinion on whether or not these historians think it is possible that our media is actually part of why we see this fluctuation over time in the pulling -- polling?

for instance, with the information they are putting out at the current time can affect how people are thinking and even historians who later on when the facts are more available, we get a totally different outlook. host: thank you for the question. guest: that is an excellent question. when i was the ripe old age of 10, there was a book published called " when the cheering stopped." it was a book about the last years of woodrow wilson and his years after his crippling stroke . it was a very sympathetic account. it has been a while since i read it, but i do not think there was any reference to the issue of race. and wilson's segregationist

abuse -- wilson, very much a southerner of the post-civil war generation. we looked at wilson and the media reflected -- hollywood made a movie in 1944 called " wilson." i can guarantee there was'nothing in there about wilsons racial -- nothing -- was nothing in there about wilson's racial feelings. for the last 100 years american presidents, most of them have been wilsoninas in -- wilsonians in their global policy, believing america to be a champion of global democracy.

the discrepancy between the democratic vision he pursued on a global scale and the commitment to jim crowism that characterized his presidency. it is certainly true that the media in the broadest sense of the word, they do in many ways provide the context as they affect the priorities that we as historians tend to hold most significant at any given moment in time. host: doug brinkley mentioned your work on that biography of gerald ford. gerald ford came in at 28. when will we be able to get our hands on what you are working on? [laughter] guest: i just wrote page 883 yesterday! i have 100 pages to go.

next june is the anniversary of the original watergate break-in , from which all of our history since stems. that seems to be a good pub, date for a big, new, revisionist biography of gerald ford. host: russell out of south carolina, democrat, good morning. russell, are you with us? charlie, a republican in new york, go ahead. caller: does your survey have barack obama ranked above ronald reagan? guest: no. ronald reagan comes in just before obama. your statement is what?

caller: my statement is let's look at president trump's accomplishments. his cutting of taxes and regulation had the economy booming, the lowest unemployment rates for black send hispanics in our history -- blacks and hispanics in our history. more women were participating in the workforce than ever before. his as the -- he recognized jerusalem as the capital of israel, he moved the indus -- embassy there, and you have him ranked at 41st? that is absurd. guest: these are subjective rankings depending upon the

individual philosophy, political and otherwise. it could be very different depending on who is actually voting, and who is actually ranking in this instance. it was a very diverse group, so there would have been both democrats and republicans, liberals and conservatives, men and women, racially diverse as well. it is what it is. i will take an opportunity to go back to a question about the media. the media always plays a role in what we are thinking of the people who are our leaders, but we are in a moment -- there is an important social movement for social justice. those in the middle who have

been gaining over the years, it is occurring because they are getting higher scores, and not the pursuit of justice for all americans. this year's survey shows that especially. whether someone comes in first or 41st or 44th, it has more to do with how they did on the economy, how they did with international relations, but it is also about administrative abilitie whethers they were looking at the country from the perspective of, all of its citizens. host: what are the 10 categories we ask historians to rank our presidents on? great, coolidge -- several fell

in that category. nixon, munro, jefferson. talk about the president who fell the farthest in that category, woodrow wilson from 20th in that category to 37th in this survey. guest: wilson is the president who made the statement, supposedly, that the birth of nations are very racist depiction -- he was someone who had very negative attitudes about people of color, minorities in general. his administration was occurring at a time when there is annan --

an assault on immigrants, especially immigrants from south eastern europe. there is a lot to hold him accountable for. presidents our leaders of the nation politically and socially as well. people pay attention to what their attitudes are and i think we are at a point in history when we understand how race has played a role in this country. when you have presidents who are divisive in that way, they will get lower ratings in that category. host: in the category of pursuing justice for all, coolidge is up. guest: that is interesting.

he made native americans citizens for example when he signed that into law, the snyder act. he said, " if all men are, that is final -- " if all men are equal, that is final." he signed a restrictive immigration act. it depends how you count equal justice, whether you include new immigrants. coolidge believed we should take care of who is in america first, but he was not a big it. he thought america had -- not a bigot. i wanted to make a point about the media. the media are people just like

historians are and they are affected by education. the shift in secondary education affects people. the national association of colleges recently published a survey, which i would be -- in which i was honored to participate, of textbooks of american history. when i pounded through them with my research colleague, what we found were the textbooks were rather skewed left. there was a sense of trashing often in the history, which was disappointing. historians are not politicians. there analysts. the books -- they are analysts. a second factor, regarding

secondary school textbooks is that they are hard to learn from because they slam the student with facts and they favor to multi-media. go online and do this exercise in a portal. you got the feeling that kids memorize facts and got a general left-wing message but did not get a coherent history or even a coherent picture of an individual president performance. if you have your upon year upon year of disappointing secondary school textbooks, you are going to see the results all over the culture. host: i come to the rice university professor -- your reaction to that? guest: i agree completely with

what she just said. what is changing now is there is an opening up of the narrative that started in schools. for example, when obama was president, we saved monuments. we honored soldiers of black americans who served in the army. we did cesar chavez, and for native americans in utah. that narrative is opening up and we are starting to look now. we are not just a patriarchal, white, male dominated society. the number of women and minorities taking part in this survey have a new kind of lens, a new sensitivity.

one reason calvin coolidge has risen some is he does not get good numbers overall. race matters right now. one of the reason grant has gone up some is people are looking at his more enlightened you on race band say woodrow wilson -- than say woodrow wilson. wilson tried to disenfranchise or give lower paid to african-americans that worked in the federal government, so he seemed to be bending that arc of justice in the wrong direction. it all works out in the end, but race matters. you see obama coming in at 10. he gets the perfect score of dealing with the issues of civil rights, but you are looking at somebody like obama who served

two terms, was largely scandal free, got america out of the great recession, was able to kill osama bin laden, bailout general motors, and he is the first nonwhite male president we have had. he is a president of great significance. i think should he be number 10 or lower, he will always be seen as a significant president. i stress the two terms -- we have had good one term president's. george h. w. bush was only one term but he oversaw the goal for, the successful deliberation -- oversaw the successful double ration over kuwait -- he oversaw

the successful deliberation over kuwait, the gulf war. he got attacked by pat buchanan from the right and a third party . bush did not become a two termer, so he does not rise as much. the first polling moment is did he get reelected or not? if the american people thought you did a good job, you get reelected. polk is a one term president, and he is ranked very high. you have great advantage if you can put together two terms the way eisenhower or reagan did. in the case of kennedy, he was an eclipsed president. some of our categories work in kennedy's favor when you are talking about media relations. he was phenomenal!

he invented the modern press conference. when you look at things like public persuasion, stunning. he could have 70% approval ratings, support for nasa's moonshot. we talk about crisis management -- not just cuba but berlin's crisis. he created the seals, he created the green berets, he did the nuclear testing tragedy -- treaty. we were blowing up atomic bombs in arizona and people were getting sick downwind. you start seeing really cheaps. what is real 1 -- seeing real achievements. james garfield was assassinated, but he didn't get a chance to track as president, so you see him in a low slot, but it is not

quite fair. you never had a chance to-- an opportunity to put together a normal term. host: frank in louisville, texas, independent. caller: can you hear me ok? host: go ahead. caller: i think trump should have been a lot higher than number 41, ok. this is for the panel -- i want to know how political this survey was. anybody on the panel, what the percentage of left-wing democratic historian voters was compared to the percentage of right-wing republican historian

voters? host: did we ask party affiliation when we selected the 142 historians for this? guest: we made a deliberate effort to diversify. implicit in what the caller is saying is historically, just as amity talked about left-leaning textbooks, historians and political scientists have tended to lean in the same way. this did not begin in this survey. if you look at the steady growth in the size and diversity and the representativeness, there has been a significant effort and i would argue a successful

effort to incorporate more conservative voices but the terminology the caller uses, and i respect his viewpoint, it goes back to what i said earlier. he talked about either left-wing historians or right-wing historians. that reflects a red and blue dividing line in our politics and presumably -- it is presumed -- in our academics. it makes the case for just how provisional rankings are. when you look at a president who is still very much so when the headlines -- one thing that separates president trump from most of his predecessors, one

reason president's rise in these rankings over time is because they cease to be active political partisans. they become elder statesman, if you will. doug mentioned the friendship that developed between bush and clinton. you could not imagine that happening while they were in office or while they were contending as political adversaries, but they become involved in charitable work and in effect today graduate from the role of day-to-day polarizing partisan figure two this -- to this role of elder statesman. president trump sees himself as a contender in 2024. he has no intention of retiring to build a presidential library

like most of his predecessors, and therefore, he remains a polarizing figure as the calls this morning suggest./ that may or may not influence how the next pole of historians -- poll of historians rank him. host: that information is available on our website, c-span.org/presidentssurvey2021. you can do a deep dive into our methodology. the slides we have been showing you breaking down the scores, all available at c-span.org. host: -- we are joined this morning by our panel of

advisors. it's douglas brinkley, richard norton smith, amity shlaes, professor edna greene medford for another hour. our first caller comes from the land of lincoln. lincoln placed first in all surveys. good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to say i'm a republican. my family has been republican. the current state of the party of lincoln seems to be rough

around the edges to say the least. something i thought about while listening to your show this morning, the insurrection that occurred january 6. i find what happened affected white american voters. i started to think about this. with all the african of this with all that african-americans have been through -- with all that african-americans have been through, sleight-of-hand from the tuskegee to dust tuskegee

experiment -- tuskegee experiment and not one damp time did we march up the steps to that capital with -- not one damn time did we march up the steps to that capital. not once did it ever occur to the african-american in this country to walk up those steps and desecrate the capital. that says a lot. that goes unspoken. there's a gentleman with a book out about president jackson and he said well we can't judge. well i can because the bible hasn't changed. right is right and right -- and wrong is wrong. host: that's judah and illinois.

we will go to edna greene medford for the answer. guest: although there has been oppression throughout the decades and centuries, africans and the dutch african america -- african-americans believed in the promise of the independence. most of us were considered property at that time. we still believe in the promise. we believe that america can do better and will do better because we understand that although people are concerned about the loss of power, they still know the difference between right and wrong. they understand that in america, everyone should be entitled to

rise. the need to stay in control sometimes is the overarching factor, the thing that motivates people. we are at a very dangerous point in the country. we have to decide whether an hour going to move forward and ensure those promises of the declaration, or if we are going to move backwards. it's upon us. this generation. host: you are heading -- you are nodding your head. >> we very much agree on that. one of my favorite categories in our poll is the last one which is, it's in the context of host: performance within the context of times. >>

-- caller: we also have to judge people within the context of their time. what they set out to do and said they would do and what were other people around the president doing at that time? what's valuable is the stability of this poll is that it shows americans respect that. people usually judge a man or woman by their own terms. i think that's also what edna is saying. we care more as americans more about civil rights and we judge differently. there's still a respect for the efforts. that's very important. host: professor medford, back to

you. do you agree? edna greene medford caller: i get that all the time. not everyone was doing that during that. -- during that time. i can look at george washington and say he did a wonderful thing in not trying to secure power onto himself and the presidency. he could have done that or at least he could have tried. i can certainly appreciate all that he meant to the country and all that he gave to the country, but i can still be concerned that this man held over 300 human beings in slavery while he was president and i can do the

same with thomas jefferson. thomas jefferson is writing the declaration of independence. he is talking about the equality of all men, but he is holding people enslaved. it's the hypocrisy. did they really mean what they were saying? i don't think it's possible to separate the man or the woman from their personal actions and what they are doing for the country. host: the declaration of independence signed on this day in 1776. the words written by thomas jefferson. among these are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

doug brinkley? caller: guest: it was like the press release. think about how the original one had two names on it. john hancock and draws thompson. -- charles thompson. a whole new country is being created, the united states. the british laughed at it and said we want to arrest hancock and thompson for treason and hang them. the 13 colonies pulled together and the american revolution gave us our first president. the one thing everybody agreed on is george washington did such an amazing job winning the war that the combination of the

battle at yorktown, he became the unanimous choice. it was secretary of the continental congress who want to virginia and told washington you are it. you are going to be the first president. washington was reluctant. he wanted to stay and work the land. he got on the horse and did the famous ride from virginia to new york city. if you go there today, i urge everybody that goes to new york city to visit federal hall. it is the birthplace of the bill of rights. washington did one of the greatest things as president. spirit of the declaration, spirit of democracy. he was uniting the country and

after two terms he said no i'm going to step back. if i stay on it will be more like a monarchy. his quitting of the presidency is one of the great presidential actions in u.s. history and that's why washington, we could spend hours on. he always hangs in there and the number two spot. lincoln, washington and fdr. just so remarkable. when we think about crisis and what fdr did in world war ii and patton and macarthur and the team he assembled. i think it's the high watermark. fdr could be number one.

some people think he could be above lincoln. when you're dealing with the top presidents, we have a lot to be thankful for. i just came back from north dakota and they are building a theater or at roosevelt presidential library there -- theodore roosevelt presidential library there. all of those people are going camping and exploring wild america over the fourth of july weekend. roosevelt injected conservation as the main premise of his presidency which was from 1901 to 1909. donald trump was impeached twice, he lost by 2 million votes, he was a disruptor not a

new -- not a uniter. his -- it is much more interesting to talk about fdr, ronald reagan reducing nuclear weapons in the world is a way that he was able to do. calvin coolidge that had greatness. when reagan left office, people thought he was a polarizing president that he was a conservative. you've seen in a poll like this one that the scholars recognize that he left america in a better place. so i think there is a lot of fairness in the poll. i don't think this is all right left vote thing. i think these scholars have all gone to universities.

they went and have studied and written books and they are giving us their honest opinion on these surveys. host: you bring up reagan. it's steve on twitter. we haven't been able to get to many of them this morning, steve wrightson on twitter "-- steve writes on twitter "he had the treaty into terms as a singular achievement. top 15 may be, but not top 10." richard norton smith? guest: it's been 40 years since ronald reagan took the oath of office and even people who disagree vehemently with him

accord him the status of a consequential president. franklin roosevelt changed the political weather. people fundamentally recognized that there was a fundamental change underway in the relationship between the average american and their government brought about first by the great depression. in much the same way, franklin roosevelt's consensus about the role of government prevailed. ronald reagan's great claim to his standing in the top 10 is that he thought about in his own

time as a change in the political senses. we were no longer talking as fdr did about centralizing power in washington, personalizing power in the presidency, a proactive approach to the nations problems . ronald reagan was talking about government being the problem itself as often as the solution. the interesting thing is we are at a crossroads. 40 years later, the reagan consensus. bill clinton was an activist by temperament, but he recognized that he was operating within the limits set by the reagan era consensus.

the assumption was when barack obama came the president, that was the end of the era of reagan. i would argue right now we are at a crossroads. there is a real debate going on. there are clearly different views held by the millennial generation. american history is cyclical. it may be after 40 years reflective distrust of government and its capacity to address problems. the problems -- not surprisingly overtime, public attitudes may evolve along with those problems. host: about 45 minutes left in this segment. we have been spending the last few hours of our program talking about the historian survey.

letting you call in to ask about those results. out of chico, california is wanda. caller: you guys are long-winded. yesterday, there was supposed to be a rally on youtube. it was supposed to cover the trump rally, but they backed out for political reasons. the rally was shown on tumb --rumble. they had over 400,000 viewers. host: did you have a question about this survey? caller: my comment is about the survey. i'm saying that i don't think any of these heroes that you like to put at the top.

and i really don't care what a bunch of host: alright that's rhonda in california. next color. caller: thank you so much -- -- host: next caller. caller: presidents that have worked to make great strides for a perfect union. that's who seems to be at the top of your survey. i really hate to get back to this, but this is the times we are living in. unfortunately, i'm wondering. it seems like everything is coming back to donald trump because he is the 10,000 pounds

elephant in the room. i don't see how he even made it to number 41 on your list with an insurrection. he is friends with the worst leaders in our world. he should be dead last on your list and if you make a list of worse presidents, he should be right at the top. he grabs women without their permission. he has no morals, no standards, no ethics, no values. he should be at the bottom of the list that puts good precedents at number one. he was garbage as a president. host: moral authority is one of those categories we asked who participated to rank presidents on. let me give you the top 10 in moral authority. it's abraham lincoln and george

washington followed by franklin roosevelt, barack obama, jimmy connor -- jimmy carter. the top performers in moral authority. caller: george w. bush used to always say i have finite political capital and i need to be able to spend at all. scandal takes away political capital or moral authority and we have seen that in a few presidents where they got distracted or created distractions and they were not able to get legislation through. think about president clinton who would've gotten health-care legislation through if he had not had the scandals. some of that was his fault. americans recognize the

discipline it takes to be president. what you have to put away, put down, forgo to be able to max out on your commitment that you've made in your party platform. it's very interesting to see the thinking on that. when you go back, what's surprising is that moral authority is trumped by other concerns. even though he squandered his political capital. most of the time, people respect moral authority. not because they are prissy but because they want historians to be able to execute on what they said they would execute on. that's part of being an effective president. host: this is todd in

evansville. good morning. caller: good morning. the last time i called and was presidents day a couple years back and doug brinkley was talking about the last survey. there's a discussion at that time and after 25 years, presidential papers are more accessible. i'm thinking mr. brinkley said this morning that he's tired of talking about donald trump. at that time, a lot of the discussion was about obama. a lot of the survey seems to be a discussion of trump politics rather than the historical context for presidents. if there is a delay in evaluating current presidents, i

wonder if you would have a more valuable discussion. look at the movements of bush 43 to that point. i wonder if i could get some reaction to that. host: doug brinkley? caller: guest: that's a very fair point. do you include all presidents? or do you put it 20 or 25 year rule on it much more we had to make a decision -- rule on it. we had to make a decision. i've been working hard to talk about jefferson and lincoln and some of the others because i find what fun about this is some of the president we don't talk about or think about. jimmy carter was mentioned for moral authority. he is not ranked very high.

or john quincy adams. both of them had extraordinary x presidencies. carter winning the nobel prize. john quincy adams, an abolitionist. i think it was something like 16 years in congress. huge figures as human beings, but their performance isn't as high as some of the other presidents. the 25 year rule is a good one. i wish it could be 10 years. it's hard to get into papers these days. you have to wait in order to be able to resurrect those.

sometimes it's fun to watch. why does one president start moving upwards? grant, suddenly everybody started reassessing grant. a new biography on coolidge or gerald ford or jimmy carter can work its way into. it's also books matter. a biography of harry truman and he started moving into one of the top-ranked presidents. his very right for someone to do a book on james madison. he's been underestimated as a president. you might start seeing madison

rise. do you wait 20 years? it was a decision we made and we did not want to start excluding presidents so we decided to include them all. host: books matter. i think our friends might have their new promotion clip from doug brinkley. edna greene medford joining us. i want to talk to you about that building that's over my shoulder . one of those categories that we ask historians to rate the president on is their relations with congress. one of the slides we have is how recent presidents have moved a bit in that category on relations with congress. george w. bush moving from 36 to 21 on this recent survey.

somebody like richard nixon down. what do you find interesting? guest: it's a difficult category because we are kind of making the president responsible for how congress responds to what their particular president is attempting to accomplish. in the case of obama, because he had so much trouble with the republican party especially, he was held accountable for that. we have no way of saying that it is the responsibility of congress to try to work with the president whenever possible. what we are seeing in terms of those who are making gains, and understanding that a president

may have done the best that he could to try to compromise, to try to work with congress and congress was just very resistant. i'm hoping that as, and i'm assuming that it's happening, as the participants in the survey are looking through these categories they are understanding that presidents may be doing the best they can, especially in that particular category. they will never be able to get a very high score if you have a congress or part of congress that has determined that no matter what the president is attempting to put forth for the american people that they are simply not going to participate in that. such political tribalism and it has been for a long time. you are going to see those kinds

of issues developing. host: is there an inherent handicap in the survey if they had a divided government? guest: i think that's absolutely true. we can't assume because the president belong to the same party as who is in control of the senate and house of representatives that things are going to work out for that president either. generally, it has been more advantageous to have the same party as -- same party in congress. you have a party that is decided no matter what is being put forward, we are not going to dissipate. we are not going to give this person a victory. we are not going to ensure the legacy of this person. then what is a president to do?

richard norton smith, an interesting question -- then what is a president to do. host: richard norton smith, an interesting question. guest: herbert hoover is in a unique category. they were non-politicians. never ran for anything before he occupied the ultimate political office. taft was someone who said i hate politics and who was obviously much happier on the judicial bench. there is a question that is not measured in our survey and that is the put that's the political temperament -- and that is political temperament.

he had demonstrated remarkable skills bringing people and outside egos together to win world war ii. it turned out almost perfect preparation. he was dealing with sam rayburn and lyndon johnson. those three men decided to work together. it's one of the reasons why people are nostalgic for the 1950's. you had divided government but effective government. gerald ford issued 66 vetoes. he made them stand despite the numbers in congress. was he a success because of

that? or what he's -- or was he a failure because he had to resort to a veto strategy? host: exactly why this survey is so interesting. about a half hour left with our discussion. you've got bill from florida. caller: good morning. can you hear me ok? thank you very much for taking my call. what a wonderful conversation we are having with such learned people. the reason i'm calling is i wanted to ask about president grant. i just completed reading a couple of biographies and of

also been reading biographies of lincoln and fdr. i feel that grant was overlooked for his great accomplishments, especially their performance during the civil war. i was wondering if i could get some comments from you about his presidency and the fact that he was hailed as a great man during his lifetime. thank you very much for taking my call. host: i would note that grant is up 13 places from 33 to 20. >> guest: there's definitely a concern about civil-rights, citizens rights and the culture and that would be the biggest factor in the rise.

we forgive other things because he was a strong general, genius and because of civil rights after the civil war. that's the short answer. host: doug brinkley, do you want to expand? guest: grant, the name is golden. anyone in new york city knows about him. one of the great documents in history. grant wrote great battlefield reports. i grew up in ohio so i'm always proud to claim grant coming from my home state. they have opened a ulysses s grant presidential library in mississippi. i think the library is one of the reasons for grants rise

because they are not only getting visitors, but they are starting to digital ties -- digitalize his writings. people don't realize that in many ways, african-americans were being elected to office in the south during this. -- during this period. people would visit him that were confederates to meet the great man as well as people that were so proud to have served under grant in the union army. it's just a matter of time that he would get this resurrection. cronyism and corruption in the administration has hurt him up to the previous books that the

caller has read. i just read a book will be coming out on grant and i have a feeling that grant is going to be talked about more. that's the life of these presidents. stocks go up, they go down. bill clinton, two-term president. one could argue that bill clinton was the most effective president of our time. we had a balanced budget and a surplus. we had the nato expansion. democracy was on a roll. but nobody has done a big book on bill clinton because hillary clinton got into the mix and she did not win and now the #metoo movement hertz clinton --hurts

clinton. he's really, after hillary clinton lost retired from that. host: i appreciate you getting through the grant commentary. edna green medford, 8 -- caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. this is a great survey is always . the panel is exceptional. my question is in regard to the categories, which categories, if

there's any particular one that you find more important for looking at presidents. i want to say today is fourth of july. i have two kids that share birthdays with presidents. calvin coolidge and john quincy adams and we always tell them they have presidential birthday buddies and that's how we are learning, teaching the kids about the presidents and stuff. host: sounds like you are teaching the children right. public persuasion, crisis leadership, economic leadership, moral authority, international relations, administrative skills, relations with congress, vision setting, equal justice for all and performance within the context of the times. is there one that is more important to you than the others? guest: i would have to say there

are two. moral authority and pursuit of equal justice for all. if i had to choose one of those, it would be the pursuit of equal justice for all because as americans we are a very diverse nation. we have to be more inclusive that we have been. our political leaders have to understand that and have to move forward to try to make that happen. especially on this day. he gives us the opportunity to reflect on where we've been and where we need to go. i think we've done a lot. we've accomplished quite a bit. we are not there yet. we have talked about lincoln's unfinished work. we are definitely trying to finish that work. lincoln was so much enamored

with the declaration of independence because what it suggested was that all men and women, we are including more people now, that all americans have the right to do the very best they can to have opportunities to improve their lives. if a political leader is not doing that, if a political leader is divisive or only looking at one segment of the american population then he and hopefully she's someday, we can suggest that person is doing their job. the most important thing that a political leader can do is to ensure inclusiveness. host: i want to quickly get an answer to sean's question and the rest of the panel? richard norton smith?

guest: i would agree with edna about the importance of pursuing equal justice. when we were creating all of this and trying to decide among ourselves which would be the appropriate cut -- appropriate criteria. that was added. it was taken into consideration by the traditional polls before 2000. the last category, performance within the context of their times, that matters. the presidency in the 19th century is a very different office than the 20th century. the age of radio, different from the presidency in the age of television.

herbert hoover is stigmatized and personally linked to the great depression that began during his presidency. expectations of presidents change and definitions of presidential performance must also evolve. host: you bring up the idea of presidency in the age of twitter. amity shlaes, is there one category more important? guest: i don't think it's more important, but i think it will go unmentioned so i will mention it which is economic management. presidents look good when the times are good. do they make the times good? do they inherit the times? that is always question. i'm always glad to see that category in there. expansion and discussion,

franklin roosevelt not bring unemployment below 10%. so was he a good economic manager or not? he was an inspiring economic manager and a good war leader. you could raise the question about his economic management. the gap between the inspiration and the reality. was it so bad that roosevelt did pretty well? or was it so bad because that administration contributed to the great depression? that question needs discussion without politics. am very glad that we are looking at history.

there's a joke about history that we don't skate to where the puck is going to be. we skate to where the puck was in the past. this endeavor can enrich our political conversation if we allow it. history is on the defensive now. what's glorious about this poll is it looks at history. we did not cancel any presidents. we consider them thoughtfully. host: doug brinkley on the category that's more important than the others. guest: crisis leadership. abraham lincoln is utterly remarkable. the way that he pulled our country together when we were divided after fort sumner.

imagine being president of the united states. lincoln wasn't even on the ballot in southern states. now he is in washington. the battle of bull run is where dulles airport is today. it was the utter unraveling of america and in the end, 600 thousand americans died. hundreds of thousands wounded. it was our crucible. lincoln pulled our country together and gave us a foundational text. the gettysburg address and the emancipation proclamation. crisis management, lincoln number one. as number two, franklin d roosevelt. the genius that he was of

creating industrial mobilization , recognizing that world war ii was not going to be one --won in europe but it was going to take place in detroit, newark, san diego and seattle. that homefront organizing to win the war to pull the country together, so i put lincoln and fdr in that particular category of crisis management very high and important. host: good discussion this morning. mike and the buckeye state. you are next. caller: good morning.

happy independence day to my fellow americans. what a great panel. what a great channel. i would like to quickly dispute very respectfully mr. brinkley. i think the end of world war ii, his failing health. fdr gave eastern europe away to stall. --a way to stall. i recently finished reading forgotten man. according to your book, he was going after chicken butchers in new york city. he spent years going after andrew mellon. i wondered personally what --

where you believe fdr should be on the list. i would also like to thank mr. norton spirit -- norton smith. let me thank the panel and i will take the answer off the air. thank you so much and happy independence day to all of you. host: amity shlaes on the forgotten man. guest: franklin roosevelt. host: republicans 202-748-8001. democrats, 202-748-8000. independence, 202-748-8002.

-- independents, 202-748-8002. guest: vr all mid-19th century presidents. -- these are all mid-19th century president. pierce stands by as the country is unraveling. he could have done something. he did not. he was the person that was there in the middle of this debate over the expansion of slavery. pierce doesn't really attempt to

challenge. you've got buchanan who is sitting by as the country gets closer to war. he doesn't do anything to stop it. you have lincoln coming in. he can either allow the confederacy to go its merry way or he could try to keep the country together and he decides to go for broke. he decides that it's important enough for the nation to be performed -- to be preserved to go to war. over 700,000 people died as a consequence, but he also opens the door to ending say it -- ending slavery. that is revolutionary. he is succeeded by andrew johnson who is not in any way fit to be president at that time. it makes perfect sense that

lincoln is elevated the number one because the country could not have survived without his leadership. with help from the military and the american people, but it was lincoln's leadership that made the difference. host: not to beat up too much on johnson, but why expand on that? why unfit? guest: andrew johnson was a southerner from tennessee, a democrat, but someone who remained loyal to the union. he did not have the administrative ability that lincoln did. he did not have the vision that lincoln did. he did not have the moral authority. it certainly was not any consideration, a percent of people justice for all people. -- a pursuit of justice for all people.

he simply could not deliver. host: do you ever engage in what if lincoln had survived? guest: of course. were not supposed to, but we do. i'm probably a little bit different in terms of, historians believe that if lincoln had survived there would not have been the kind of tragedies and reconstruction that occurred. i beg to differ. i think lincoln was so tired that he might have been willing to compromise with the south in a way that may not have extended rights to african-americans that were extended because johnson was so incompetent and congress was able to have their way.

i suspect that the 14th amendment would not have been ratified as early. i don't think the 15th amendment would have been ratified as early. i think lincoln would have tried to find a way to compromise with the south because he had already indicated before his assassination that there should be a more conciliatory toward these people who had removed themselves from the government. host: charity towards all was compromised? guest: it would have included former confederates. he would not have, he was not pushing them to the side. he would've wanted them to be a part of the government. he would have wanted african-americans to be a part of the government as well. he was the lead -- he was the leader of the republican party.

what better leader to give republicans power in the south? i think it would have taken longer. host: i feel like we could do what if history all day. gail, new jersey. you are next. caller: good morning. thank you c-span for allowing me to speak. my favorite all-time president was president john f. kennedy. in my book, he did the most to help people of color. i wish we could do something as far as to see where this world would have been if john f. kennedy would have been allowed to live. where would black people, where would -- what would our existence be like? president trump was the

president of the confederacy. i think his main objective was to bring the confederacy back into power. thank goodness people are waking up and realizing that it is better for our nation as a whole for blacks to be treated equally and receive the same rights and privileges that we've earned and deserved in this country. host: gail in new jersey talking about where jfk ranks in her book. doug brinkley? guest: john f. kennedy ranks very high among the public. he is a loved person, loved thinker. this assassination in dallas, so much was lost.

the truth that this poll shows is that we've had a golden age of presidents. fdr, truman, eisenhower and kennedy. it seemed things went bad after kennedy's death. medicaid and medicare and created the department of transportation. ladybird with beautification. we could go on and on. the war of johnson's devastated america. when we think of kennedy, we realize the promise of america. one of the great bits of oratory

of all times. as i mentioned before this banning of testing of nuclear weapons and stopping the underwater testing of nuclear weapons. kennedy has got so much to offer and being the first catholic president, i think there is a feeling that he shattered that glass ceiling. protestant american figures and suddenly, there's john f. kennedy. he lives large and on -- he lives large. some people upset in the press, why is kennedy so high. when you break it down, you see that he was very good and all of those. he is positioned about right. we can always quibble over who should be eight or nine or 10.

the bottom line is kennedy is one of the greatest presidents for the ages. host: quibbling is our favorite part. time for one more call. a call from the land of lincoln. a call from massachusetts. go ahead with your question or comment. caller: i want to thank this incredible panel, each and everyone of you are extraordinary americans. it makes me proud to watch you on the fourth of july. i could say so many things. i could give a shout out to. i'm overwhelmed. i can't wait to read about gerald ford. that will be a thrill for me. i have great admiration for him. i would like to talk, and i agree that clinton deserves,

despite his personal failures and being overshadowed by the hillary loss. i would like to say, i would like to focus on george w. bush. he was such a great administrator and moral person and ran a tight ship. i think he was very charismatic. he was a skilled logician and could, but the -- he was a skilled politician. host: let's take that because we have just about a minute left. i will let richard norton smith take that minute. guest: the caller raises a very important point. one reason i think the second president bush has risen in the rankings is applicable to this whole process.

when we reassess presidents, one of the factors that we take into account is how did his for 40 years, every resident had to deal -- every president had to deal with the cold war. presidents and their attitude toward israel and the middle east. we have 70 to 80 years in which to compare. the fact that there is a lot of criticism to george w. bush for the original decision to go into iraq, we also looked at how his successors have had their own difficulties in dealing with the consequences of that decision. that is factored into our assessment of bush and you can

factor that into president after president. host: i would like to thank our guest, richard norton, and professor edna green. thank you so much for your time this morning. >> happy fourth of july everybody. host: the same to you and same to all of our viewers. if you missed any of the conversation concerning the presidential survey you can watch it again. it will air at 9:00 p.m. eastern here on c-span or online anytime at c-span.org. you could also go to our website, c-span.org for the full results of the president survey. president biden and the first lady are hosting a barbecue for military workers and the

president is expected to speak around 7:00 p.m. eastern to have remarks. we hope you have a great july 4 we will be back tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. eastern and 4:00 pacific. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] ♪ >> c-span is your unto -- unfiltered view of government funded by these television , stations and more, including charter communication. >> broadband is a force for empowerment. that is why charter invested millions building infrastructure upgrading technology, empowering , opportunity in communities big and small. charter is connecting us.