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listen at c-span.org/podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. : kevin sabet is joining is now about efforts to legalize marijuana. he is author of smokescreen. he is also president and ceo of smart approaches to marijuana. kevin sabet, what do you do? >> thanks -- guest: thanks so much for having me on. when i was 13 years old, i called in to ask vice president gore about human rights abuses in iran. i think it was my parents most proud moment. thank you for your public service. host: thanks for calling in back when you are 13 and being with us for so long. guest: it was really fun.

it was great. host: we will try to find that clip. guest: sure. i worked in a couple white house demonstrations. i left the obama ministration into thousand 11. i notice that the conversation about marijuana, but essentially there was a massive industry whose is this that is to make money. i was burning -- i was promoting this idea that marijuana was essentially safe, natural. it was the herb of the 60's and there was no problem with it. the only way to have policy would be to legalize it. when i spoke to officials in the obama administration. i go into some of those discussions in my book. when i spoke to them, when i spoke to scientists around the country, every medical

association i spoke with, there was such a disconnect with what they were saying is we are concerned about today's highly potent marijuana. we are concerned about the tobacco industry getting involved. we are concerned about mental health outcome. psychosis, schizophrenia, suicide. the public's perception, i figured there was a gap that needed to be filled. patrick kennedy -- congressman patrick kennedy, we had gotten to know each other during the aca discussion and we were focused on how to treat mental health as well as addiction on par with -- addiction. we have made a stark divide

between mental and physical health. although the brain is -- we decided together that our next journey together was to start this organization. smart approaches to marijuana. not to advocate for the status quo. we don't want to see people arrested. we don't want to see criminal records. we would love to see expunged records. we would love to see the decriminalization of personal use. we also want to see a prevention account. we certainly do not want to see a for-profit industry taking this over. we have worked for the last almost nine years now as an

organization pushing back against efforts to legalize a for-profit industry and try to increase prevention and treatment. individual donors that have, i would say almost all, have had personal issues in their families or themselves with high potency marijuana. the stories i hear from parents about kids who have died by suicide where there suicide note wrote in there that it was because of the marijuana. i can't imagine living through that kind of tragedy, whether it's the parent i spoke to last week whose son is in a thc induced mania and 30 day inpatient. it is costing them their entire college savings put him into that state to control their 18-year-old son.

it these are powerful -- these are powerful stories. they've made money in this vibrant economy over the last 20 years and they have donated to us. we don't take a penny from industries like pharma, alcohol and tobacco. we never have and never will because essentially we are saying we do not want to copy those industries. we are a very lean organization, very small. we are one that drives off small individual donors. host: let me give phone numbers or viewers to join with kevin sabet. smart approaches to marijuana, also the author. he has talked about his book smokescreen. here are the fault this you are the phone numbers. if you support legalization 202-748-8000. if you oppose it 202-748-8001. kevin sabet joining us today

after chuck schumer and democratic senators unveiled their draft on passing legalization. the cannabis administration opportunity act would allow possession up to -- would allow possession, allow cannabis companies. your thoughts. caller: i guess i'm grateful that this discussion draft that this is not an official bill. there is room for improvement. there needs to be a lot of improvements. we need to make this distinction between decriminalization and legalization. there is such a key distinction. i know you're smart listeners will last. decriminalization is reducing or eliminating arrests or criminalized sanctions against people for low-level amounts of

use. one ounce is something around 60 to 70 joints. we are talking about 10 ounces for personal possession. that's something like 600 to 700 joints. the legalization is different. it's about sales, production and trafficking. i wish we could make that distinction better. i wish that this bill focused on decriminalization, not legalization. i was surprised because it leaves a lot of room for criticism. there are over half dozen democrats who are against

legalization along with not only republicans but every single medical association in this country because it does not address things like driving issues. it does not address driving impaired, high on marijuana. it is a huge problem in this country. we just had a brand-new medical journal showing an increase in little states like washington. and does not address that. it does not address the fact that it is guys who look like me who are the ones making the money and continuing to make the money under legalization. it's not going to be about guys who used to be drug dealers in the inner-city who all of a sudden are going to have access to capital and the connections and headstart start that you need to thrive at any business. i think it is insulting to say

that the time we are going to care about job opportunity is going to be because we want to legalize marijuana and use drugs. i would think we should care about that regardless of our feelings of marijuana. don't think it's going anywhere. it does not have the support it needs. i think it's far from being read host: -- far from being. host: tom in hampton, connecticut on the line for those who support the legal -- the legalization of marijuana. good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. i'm 74 years old. i can't hear you. host: you're the one talking. you're 74 years old? caller: i haven't smoked marijuana since vietnam, but legalization on a federal level

continues to make things around the country. in connecticut, i have a medical card. my point is you need to have the controls the same. they will make marijuana smoking the same as cigarette smoking. i think it's wrong. i think alcohol and marijuana should be exactly the same. you don't smoke marijuana on the street. you don't drink alcohol on the street. with the federal law, those could be regulated. i do have some issues with marijuana. 18-year-old kids growing minds should not be smoking it. host: take up that question. guest: it's a good question. frankly, it was the pressure point for the legalization

advocates about 20 years ago when they saw themselves in disarray. they did not have support of the american people. the issue of alcohol was the top issue that they got traction on. a wise person said consistency is the hobnob of a small mind. just because we have a law, that frankly, alcohol is the number one issue for violent crime in this country. there are more arrests, this is important. i was shocked when i heard this. there are more arrests are alcohol-related violations in this country, dui, selling to kids, public use then all drugs combined. alcohol is legal. we have a huge criminal justice problem. it is a top issue for domestic violence. the number one killer on the road. we have an alcohol industry that markets to kids, advertises on

the super bowl, has every flavor imaginable. if you want to talk about the opioid problem, we have to first talk about the alcohol problem. it's a huge problem. it's an embarrassment to our national fiber, the way he we have handled alcohol. if you look at inflation, we are at a fifth of where we were during the korean war. big problems, ok? but alcohol is legal. it's legal because it is been in our society for 5000 years. it has been used by the majority of western civilization. week marijuanaweak --weak marijuana was used in early

cultures. alcohol is here to stay and is not doing too well. why in the world will be what to repeat something going really badly? that should be an example for us to say let's not have marijuana in the fabric of society like alcohol. if your headlights were broken, would you break your taillights to be consistent? it was probably one of the main reason public opinion has changed. host: heidi in california opposes legalization. good morning. caller: i want to talk about a couple of points that tom brought up and that is when legalization happened in california, people began flaunting it. they were using in public places. they used at the beach. they smoke in their cars. they have no shame and they know they are not going to get any

consequences. nobody gives them a consequence. i can't even go to a public park or beach and not smell marijuana. it is not being enforced. the kids use it and they say it would not be legal if it was not safe. that is what they all say. my concern is the increase in homelessness. all this marijuana in public places, you can smell it everywhere. with that came more homeless people. can you talk about the connection? i really loved smoke screen so thank you. guest: thank you. you're exactly right about the flaunting. enforcement in this country is

that drug enforcement, things like enforcing local laws like open container laws or in this case, marijuana smoking in public. the dea isn't out surveilling your house to see if your 16-year-old is smoking a joint. that is local law enforcement. they are very disempowered to talk about this issue. they don't want to be arresting people in most parts of this country for marijuana. even before any state legalized less than 0.5% of state prisoners were there for smoking a joint. this all falls on the local and that has been a huge issue.

in manhattan, anyone is been to new york you saw a palpable change in the environment. the smells, the increase of that. one issue we do not talk about is second and third hand marijuana smoke. marijuana has at least the same about of tar as cigarettes, and we are just learning about the negative effects. it falls on the poor. this has been connected to the homelessness issue. it's the poor people and people without resources that bear the brunt of these problems. if i'm smoking marijuana and i have a problem with that, i'm not going to be fired from my job. i can stay home for a week if i want to get stoned and go to treatment if i need it. i can afford it. that is not the case for a lot of people. i see celebrities who are smart

flaunting this, talking about how many joints they are using and how great it is. i want to say that's great but that's not the average person who doesn't have the resources. the homelessness issue, extremely complex. the homelessness is a systems failure across our country in terms of access to affordable housing. we see how difficult that is in our major cities. it's a failure on our health care system. the richest country in the world should not having the health care access problems that we still have. it's a failure of the child welfare system. it's an archaic system built in post-world war ii. we absolutely have seen the link between all kinds of drugs and homelessness, but we have seen an uptick in homelessness and the particular places where marijuana has been legalized.

host: can we focus for a minute on the marijuana industry itself? we talked about the draft legislation from chuck schumer. legislation actually passed in the house earlier this year. prohibiting banking regulators from terminating or limiting financial services to legitimate cannabis related businesses and ancillary service providers. tell me what that would mean for the marijuana industry. what will be need to know about the marijuana industry to understand why we would need that? guest: the marijuana industry is illegal federally. upheld by court decision which was a majority decision by the

center and the left, including justice scalia, justice thomas dissented along with two others. the majority, chief justice stevens wrote the majority and said federal law superseded state law. all these state laws are illegal. it would be a great discussion for the limits of the supreme court when you have a federal law that is crystal clear and a state law that is crystal clear in flaunting it. banking and financial transactions are illegal if you are in the drug business. it's probably a bad idea that people like escobar and the other cartels getting access to the u.s. financial system.

the safe banking act would carve out an exception for state legalized marijuana businesses. the problem i have with it is that the excuse for the banking act is we don't want to operate in cash. that is really dangerous. so please pass this so we can accept credit card and debit card. we actually did an undercover investigation that showed that the majority of pop -- pot shots -- pot shops take credit and debit cards already. whether they essentially do a thing where they say will give you the marijuana for free from the marijuana company, but we are going to charge or credit card for the consulting company that helped you choose what kind of marijuana to find.

a lot of ingenuity goes into it when you have to fit a square pay into a round hole. i worry because the marijuana industry, a lot of it is entangled with the illegal industry. i spoke to a person who helped run the colorado industry from the states perspective you told me all kinds of stories about how drug dealers, convicted drug dealers smoking a joint or selling a gram to their friends, major dealers getting involved in the legal industry. we should not be surprised. we see that in some industries like gambling. the marijuana industry today is not only those folks. a lot of it is. the part i'm more concerned

about is the fact that you have big tobacco who brought us the vaping crisis among young people. vaping among 16-year-olds is not the same thing as vaping 60 year old who has smoked a pack of cigarettes for 20 years. i'm talking about kids that are vaping who brought us to big tobacco. remember the ads? marble? smoking is fine -- marlboro? smoking is fine. the tobacco industry was lying through their teeth for years and laughing all the way to the bank. that's the biggest player right now in marijuana. that should give us -- marijuana. host: i will take a call from

arizona for those who support legalization. caller: i would like to ask kevin a question. let's turn some pages. i want you to tell me what is most important part of your book and the message you want to get out? i want to have a slight discussion on it. go ahead. host: we are going to take your question, but let me get in diane who is waiting on the opposed line. caller: great. thanks very much. i understand that we just had this record number of drug overdoses. i think 93,000. we have a record amount of violence in the cities and the line from the proponents of

legalization is that marijuana has no affect on these things or that it even makes people mellow. i think the evidence is contrary to that and i would appreciate it if you could explain whether that is the case or not. host: we will take those two calls. go ahead. guest: there is a growing body of the evidence linking violence to today's highly potent marijuana. mainly through the mechanism of psychosis and mental illness. why would a drug to be correlated with violence, especially a drug known for mellowing you out? that's because today's marijuana in the potency levels, this is the key and this answers the first question. the potency, the 99% potent dabs , waxes, gummy bears, ice creams, sodas. the up -- these are delivery systems we've never had before.

thanks to the legal industry and this is another important point. industry innovated. they are the ones who brought us 99%. not pablo escobar. they did plenty of that, but the legal industry is responsible for these very highly potent products. there have been links to psychosis and the violence. there've also been links to the use of other drugs and a lot of other issues. we have to handle our heartbreaking overdose problem in a comprehensive way. you can't legalize drugs over here and think that you're going to have a reduced overdose or better drug problem over there. they are all linked together. host: this is roger on the line for those who support legalization. go ahead. caller: good morning. i'm assuming that you can hear me.

couple of things. number one, i can understand why the industries want to get into this. cannabis, i grow my own for my own consumption. i'm a poor guy who was on disability. i get very little money. there's no way i can afford $400 for an ounce of cannabis. i produce it myself for five dollars an ounce and it is, it does the job. number two, i want to see it legalize because i want to finally see the scientist experimenting with this. i'm 67 years old. i've been smoking tobacco since i was 15 and a half years old. it was legal in training school with my mother's permission to have eight cigarettes a day. i've been addicted to them things you much my whole life. i was also a carpenter who was taught to cut up spell those --

talk to cut asbestos and at 67, i have no cancer. my son who is 20 years younger than me has a health condition from the asbestos. he has never smoked cannabis in his life. i'm convinced that there are properties to this plant that are phenomenal in the medical industry. host: kevin? guest: we absolutely should study it. let's find out. we have done a lot of studies. a big myth is that we can't study because it's illegal so let's legalize it. that's not a great argument. we should increase the research. the research has probably been

tougher than needed. one of the things we did in the beginning was call for easier access to research. there are tens of thousands of peer-reviewed articles. listen to the national academy of sciences and medicine. a huge review in 2017 looked at studies. those are the things we should do. in terms of the colors --caller's individual experience, i'm glad he does not have those problems. these are drugs that are often used together. everybody's system is different. a 95-year-old neighbor growing up smoked three packs a day. he died of old age. i had a friend in college that smoke for four years and got cancer. everybody is different. we need to do more research absolute.

host: amazon ditched cannabis testing and more employers will follow suit. should employers be testing employees for we? guest: i think they should not to penalize them but to get them help. also, if i'm an employee and are on a factory it's not the best idea for people to come to work high on anything. i think this move by amazon is thinking that they are having a hard time hiring. because marijuana is so ubiquitous, they have to make this change. is not necessarily because they want to use marijuana come to work, but i worry that would be a negative consequence. i hope they would study the effect on tardiness. we have many studies on

drug-free workplace. a drug-free workplace is a safer and healthier workplace. i would encourage businesses to continue with this. so that we can have a safer workplace and get people help. host: frank in carrollton, virginia. you are next. guest: hey. how are you today? host: doing well. guest: when i was 13 years old, some girls turned me onto some pot. i am now 70 years old and i have done it every sense. i will say this. when i was in germany, got drafted. the heavy drugs i saw, what it did to young people. i got pictures of my garage of about 30 of us soldiers sitting

around in a circle passing around pot. we know that other drugs were wrong, but pot should be legalized. it does not hurt nobody. my doctors told me way back in the day that i would be going blind by the time i hit 70. since i started smoking pot, my eyesight got better. it does have good benefits and it does have bad benefits when you've got people that don't use it properly. i've always had if smoked it, i would never drive or anything like that. i will stay at home. host: kevin? guest: marijuana use in 1963, and i'm glad you know not to drive.

but frankly, marijuana in 1963 when your break -- brain was developing. we are concerned with age 330 use. that is old marijuana. -- with age pre 30 use. that is old marijuana. the american academy that deals with i issues -- eye issues have shown that marijuana rapidly increases pressure. you may feel a decrease which is good if you have glaucoma, but the minute you are not high you are feeling the rapid increase the way you are not feeling it before. we have better medications than

marijuana for people who have eye issues. host: for the line for those who oppose legalization. hello. caller: i believe in the emerald triangle. people have moved in here, bought up property and the whole valley is marijuana. my father drilled a well and it is shared by three properties. this guy who is growing now, he is taking all the water. we are in a severe drought. all the water, i'm afraid i'm not going to have a drop of water because he is taking it. i know about enforcement because i have all of the rules and regulations for the county and state. these people are not legal growers.

guest: i am so glad the caller called about this issue. we need to raise this to national importance. the effects of marijuana growing is a huge energy suck. it has untold environmental concern regarding energy use. marijuana is a very thirsty plant. we are seeing areas in places like california with climate change and droughts, we are seeing huge effects in terms of water shortages. that part of the central and northern california, this is such a big issue. last week, $1.2 billion worth of marijuana owned by cartels.

we were told legalization would get rid of the cartels. underground market thrives on legalization. i think it's something we look -- i think it's something we need to look a lot closer at. a lot of people have different views on environment and drug policy because the only way to follow social justice issues is legalized. i say let's decriminalize, expunge. we do not have to legitimize drug trade that hurts our environment and our kids. host: kevin sabet of smart approaches to marijuana. the book is smoke screen. this is allen in illinois. good morning. caller: good money.

i just caught the tail end of the program. just the other day, i walked into a store in illinois because it is legal. everything is done with cash. there is no way to regulate where this money is going and how much. he walked into the place and there's three atm machines because people cannot use credit cards or checks. i am wondering if it was legal like it was when prohibition ended, it was taxed and regulated. now, we've got a number of states that have legal marijuana and it is not regulated on a federal basis. guest: host:host: -- the tax revenue that could come in? guest: the tax revenue argument is an interesting one. even the proponents of

legalization in places like illinois say you should not legalize marijuana because you think you're going to get tax revenue. that is not the reason to do it. even the proponents say tax revenue is not a reason to do it because you are going to make a drop in the pocket. less than 1% of legal states budget comes from revenues from taxes. there's a thriving underground market. where are the kids went to get it? where are the people that don't want to pay those taxes? marijuana is extremely cheap to produce. the price now is close to bottled water. you are paying for packaging. the tax revenue is not as much as people bought and it's not paying for the programs itself. about the cost of increase in

car crashes? we have -- we need more people to man the emergency department. we have cyclical vomiting syndrome, which i talk about in the book. that's a growing issue according to doctors in the emergency room around the country. say we are going to have revenue but not count the cost, alcohol and tobacco. for every dollar in tax revenue those bring in, our society 10 to $15. we don't know. that's a losing proposition. we need to do more studies on this, but i don't think we could be -- i don't think we should be counting on tax revenue. host: one more call. terry has been waiting -- perry

has been waiting in florida. guest: -- caller: just a couple of quick points. i smoked from 21 years old to 60. i can or member times when i was swimming competitively, i would jump out of the pool. it kills your initiative. i was a salesman on the road. i was lucky, but the marijuana affects your driving. complicated jobs. i have an accounting jobs -- i have an accounting job. i cannot do the simplest task when i was high. dealing thing i can -- the only good thing i can think about it is it's not addictive like cigarettes. thanks for being on. guest: i will say that we know that it is addictive.

the days marijuana is addictive. -- today's marijuana is addictive. people in this country who follow statistical diagnosis for addiction. addiction is not equal for all drugs. one thing i think is happening that we are seeing is ironically as legalization spreads in different states and we are reaching the saturation point the states are going to pass this. as you notice the callers who are opposed, they are calling from pretty progressive states. california, new york, places that you may not have thought of for something like this, maybe the state that eagerly adopted this. ironically, the more you see this, the more you see the effects on your local community and your family, i think like tobacco, there's going to be a

backlash. i don't know if that's going to take 50 years. it will happen because we tend to go to some sort of extremes in this country. right now, we are going full throttle toward the extreme of acceptance as opposed to what we are trying to say, is go slow. host: kevin sabet is president and ceo

saturday on the communicators 6:30 p.m. eastern on c-span. sunday night on q&a, jessica was chief engineer of the historic boat when it was called into service to aid firefighters following the attacks on the twin towers. in her book, she tells the story of the community of mariners that came to the rescue of thousands. >> the eval -- evacuation is an incredible example of the goodness of people. that when you are given the

opportunity to help, you have the tools and skill set, you have the availability. that people over and over again may the choice to put themselves in harm's way for the sake of fellow humans. that is something we need to continue to remember. >> sunday night at 8 p.m. eastern on q&a. you can also listen as a podcast whenever you get your podcast. ♪

>> now, legal experts discuss regulating social media content. >> welcome to our showcase discussion series on free-speech and social media. and the vice president for strategic initiatives of the federalist society and director of the freedom of thought projects, new initiative to address emerging challenges to freedom of thought, content, and expression. freedom of thought, contennd