he set a deadline for democrats to agree for a $3.5 trillion budget resolution. watch the senate live on c-span2 and the house live on c-span. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are funded by these television companies and more, including charter communications. >> broadband is a force for empowerment. that's why charter has invested billions upgrading infrastructure, empowering opportunity in communities big and small. charter is connecting us. >> charter supports c-span as a public service along with these other television providers, giving we front row seat to democracy. >> en today's washington journal, a conversation with author michael wolff on his book

landslide, and later, dr. william schaffner jan newco but 19 variants and -- dr. william schaffner on new covid-19 variants. washington journal. ♪ host: house and senate returned to session later today, back from their recess with a list of bills and measures to take up. in the senate, the consideration of raising federal spending to historically high levels, the yet to be released $1 trillion infrastructure package, and a wednesday deadline for democrats to agree on a $3.5 trillion budget approved by the budget committee democratic members and their leadership last week. as the week gets underway, we

would like to hear your view on the proposed new spending. it is monday, july 19, 2021. welcome to washington journal. here is how conversation -- how you join the conversation. the democrats line is (202) 748-8000, republicans (202) 748-8001, independents (202) 748-8002. on twitter and facebook, you can post your thoughts. you can shoot us a message @cspanwj. your view of government spending and its effect on the economy, in light of the trillions of dollars of proposed spending ahead in the senate this week and in the weeks ahead. good morning and welcome to washington journal. writing about that in the washington post, tony rahm.

"democrats and republicans struggle as he senate deadline looms." he writes "president biden's economic agenda is set to face a major test on capitol hill is the senate barrels towards a vote on a proposal to improve infrastructure even though negotiators still have not agreed on key details. despite frenetic talks, lawmakers are slated to return on capital -- return to the capitol monday in the same political. -- in the same political decision in which they departed. they broadly support new spending to upgrade roads,

bridges, pipes, ports and internet infrastructure." he writes "adding to the headache, the public works blueprint is only one piece of a bigger fight, a component of a larger economic agenda. democrats have opted to seek a second package on their aims to boost federal safety net programs, combat climate change, and expand medicare." democrats (202) 748-8000, republicans (202) 748-8001, independent (202) 748-8002. here is what the president said. [video clip] >> you know, there are families in need. families need to be able to

frankly water that doesn't have lead in it and communities need reliable transit. we have a chance to solve these problems and create millions of jobs with prevailing wages, making $46, $50 an hour with benefits. we can win the second quarter of the 21st century because our infrastructure growth -- [indiscernible] disturbing to find out that they asked [indiscernible] of the 25 best airports in the world, the united states had none. we have got to build on

tomorrow. there's a lot we are going to do. hopefully will not be like the last team in here and i can be done, but we are going to get something done but we are going to get something done. that's what i think my agenda is all about. build back better. host: president biden last week at the white house. he will welcome the king and queen of jordan today. this morning, talking to you about your view of government spending and its impact on the economy. (202) 748-8000 for democrats, (202) 748-8001 for republicans, and independents and others, (202) 748-8002. this is the washington times morning, there front -- morning, their front page.

"democrats went for $2.5 trillion in spending, eating up almost all the federal government's tax collection. it will require more tax increases, borrowing or both. $8 trillion collected in tax revenue in 2021 for a host of expenses. mr. but taxes by 2.5 trillion dollars to pay for his infrastructure plan. the president says beefed up tax collection would add $700 billion and savings elsewhere in the budget would cover the rest of his new spending. let's get to your calls and comments. bill on the republican line in cleveland, good morning. caller: i would like to ask the audience. who out their lives that don't

pay their gas bill every month? who out there don't pay their mortgage? we've got to pay money to go and live in this country. we all do. to me, it is amazing that, all these years, all this money that biden is spending on the people used to be spent. somehow, they could not make it without the tax money we give them. did anyone see the 34 staffers from biden's inaugural campaign had over 100 meetings with the russians? oh, no, it didn't happen. that's why. they have convinced us that we cannot trust government. guess what? we are the government -- of the people, for the people and by the people. people make mistakes but we cannot trust government to do things when we give them the

tools to work with. host: bill, you said to give them the tools. do you think we are giving them too much money? caller: know. let me tie this into something. if we prove that we cannot take of the american -- cannot take care of the american people, then how can we take care of covid? that's what we have proven. republicans, get out of the way. go to mar-a-lago and worship your orange god. host: all right. in jacksonville, north carolina, independent line. caller: spending should be reviewed through some sort of nationwide audit. i just believe that, if we don't know facts, how can we spend money based on speculation. host: do you think the spending

in the past year has been based on speculation, the money that's been used for covid relief, the emergency money, for example? caller: i could not make that assessment. host: in new york, democrats line, good morning, jim. caller: good morning. thank you for correcting yourself. i like listening to the show in my country and i respect them and their opinions. i just kind of want to say -- host: jim, the question about government spending, particularly some of the proposed spending that will be addressed in the senate. go ahead. caller: our kids over $250,000. i can't see me in my life making $250,000 in our lifetime and

giving it with the trillions, so i don't really understand that. i think i am putting cotton -- i am voting cotton. not tom cotton. his sister, crystal, for president. host: eric on the republican line, thoughts on government spending? caller: eyman eisenhower republican -- i am an eisenhower republican. reason and logic. for that reason, we need to use artificial intelligence to analyze, prioritize, subsidize, designed so that we don't have waste, fraud, abuse, incompetence and partisanship. that's the way to get rid of partisanship.

ai is very intelligent because, like, the average -- or the smartest people can do 44 to 45 turns of a rubik's cube to get it to lay out. host: one of the pieces of funding proposed was a beefing up of the irs enforce more tax collection. that plan is at least on hold over the weekend. here's the story from the wall street journal. "lawmakers dropped plans to pay for infrastructure package in part by boosting tax collection enforcement at the irs, a setback ahead of a looming deadline for an agreement. go

agreement -- agreement." that was discussed by senator rob portman. here's what he said. [video clip] >> a number of your republican colleagues are coming out against this approach. senator ted cruz called it a foolish and dangerous idea, so is irs enforcement still part of your proposal or not? >> one reason it is not part of the proposal is we had pushback. another reason is we found out that the democrats were going to put a proposal into the reconciliation package, which was not just similar to the one we had, but was a lot more irs enforcement, so that created a problem because the agreement is this is the bipartisan negotiated infrastructure package and we will stick with that and president biden, to his credit, said we will be not

renegotiating these items in the reconciliation package. originally, the infrastructure package that biden put forward was twice as big as ours in terms of core infrastructure, so they have different ideas on this so we have a bipartisan says, a compromise between both sides. both sides made concessions. we want to stick with that. as far as irs reform, that will not be in our proposal. it will be in the larger reconciliation bill, we are told. we have the infrastructure bill separate from the $3.5 trillion reconciliation bill, which is a partisan exercise, more typical of washington, frankly. you see this difference between what senator schumer wants to do and -- >> if that is off the table, how will you pay for the $1.2 trillion plan? >> that's one reason we are

having additional meetings today and have had more over the past few days on this topic. there are other ways to do this. there's legislation. one called the bank rebate rule, which provides significant revenue. i have been on the phone with the congressional budget office over the weekend and we have a number of a-four -- and we have a number of pay-fors, and this is spending on infrastructure, not on a new government program, for example, so some will not be spent for the next five or 10 years or more, into goes into long-term assets that last 50 or 70 years, bridges, airports, waterways. the water infrastructure part of this is very important. the broadband part is important. host: this is the headline in

the hell this morning -- "biden seeks to prove skeptics wrong. he tries to get ambitious economic agenda past -- passed through congress. providing an opportunity for biden to again count his coronavirus relief law. jobless claims have followed to pandemic lows though inflation remains a worry. significant hurdles to the package remain, but it was a good week for the white house. one of the authors is the white house reporter for the bill, joining us this morning. how are you? guest: good morning. how are you? i am great. host: good.

what can we expect from the white house this coming week in terms of meeting with lawmakers and trying to lobby to get these measures passed? guest: white house officials have been regularly engaged with lawmakers, particularly regarding the bipartisan infrastructure framework that's coming together and the text of which is still being written, so i think we will see continued focus on that. when it comes to president biden, i think we will see him talk about his economic recovery plan and the importance of passing the bipartisan infrastructure proposal, so i think he's going to be focusing on building momentum and pushing this package that lawmakers and officials to get the final text of the bill finished before this

wednesday deadline that senator schumer set. host: over the weekend, in terms of ways to pay for this, was boosting funding for the irs, and that's now off the table. any word from white house officials about that and what they think they can do to solve that funding issue? guest: biden's big redline has been to not raise taxes on individuals making $400,000 or less a year. the white house is open to ideas on pay-fors. they want to see it paid for, but that is the big hurdle. it is something they will have to work out quickly as to what they can replace that pay-for with it i think we will see today and tomorrow what the position for the white house will be on what an adequate swapout would be for that. host: the president marking six

months in office. what plans are set to mark that? guest: he will do a cnn town hall wednesday. he will get a lot of questions on the continued recovery amid the pandemic and the economic recovery, the broader economic agenda. host: we mentioned earlier the president and the first lady welcoming today the king and queen of jordan to the white house. why are these events important for this president? guest: engaging with foreign leaders is obviously something we see every president do, but it is important for biden because he is trying to restore some relationships abroad or change them after four years of unpredictability and tumble under the trump administration -- and tumult under the trump administration, and it's an

opportunity for him to get them on board with his agenda as well. you saw him do his first trip abroad last month, and important moment for the white house to engage with european allies, bolster alliances like nato and meet critically with the russian president about an area of disagreements, and it is a return to normal. we have seen is -- we have seen a number of foreign leaders visit over the last months, and it is a return to a symbols of normalcy amid the pandemic for biden to meet in person with these foreign leaders. host: in this offer your election, the president will be campaigning for terry mccullough in the virginia governor's election. guest: that's right. one of his major campaign events

in his first term as president. we will see him try to build support for the gubernatorial candidate friday. host: morgan is a white house reporter for the hill. you can find her reporting at thehill.com. thank you for the update. a couple comments on social media. the question -- your view on government spending and its effect on the economy. (202) 748-8000 democrats, (202) 748-8001, and (202) 748-8002. fred says this. the last four years, we saw tax cuts for rich and ppp for the rich. if we keep subsidizing the super, who will pay for it?

the government spending is unsustainable as inflation rises. debt and borrowing will cost more. the government will limit the ability of the private sector to get loans. also, the interest maintenance of the national debt is getting bigger, says william of middletown. david in oregon says the spending is necessary. look around the u.s. our infrastructure is antique and the rich get richer. another -- the usa is a debtor nation. we have to pay this down before going further into debt. we must buckle down and work with what we have or we will bankrupt ourselves. calls. in durham, north carolina, william on the democrats line. caller: good morning. thank you for c-span. i agree with the first caller

from ohio. and i am behind biden and i think build back better and if they want to blame biden for all the problems in this country -- because that is what they are trying to do -- blame it on then -- blame it on him, but let's get something done. thank you. host: doug in fairfax, south dakota, go ahead. democrats line. caller: good morning, bill. last month, when i called in, i was talking to john about a deal. but on spending, i believe in helping the people and taxing the rich, but we are $30 trillion in debt right now. i'm getting old. i have money in the bank. i looked at the interest the other day.

.05% i was getting monday. and we owe $30 trillion like they say. inflation is going up. it is good that we are helping the people. we should be spending for the people, but we are $30 trillion in debt. everybody keeps saying we are in such great shape but how could we be when you are in $30 trillion of debt? host: does it feel that that government spending has been beneficial to your town or you individually? the spending over the course of covid, for example. caller: i think, actually, you know, this covid deal has not raised wages. people are starting to want more money. that's good. they need more money to survive. every individual owes something

like 83,000 apiece, and how are we going to pay this? i don't understand. when i was a kid, my parents died. i was 16. so the government helped me. social security came in. they gave me social security to go to school as long as i went to school, so i got free schooling. i don't know. my grandma used to tell me put money in the bank and it will grow, but you put money in the bank now and it shrinks because inflation eats the money. host: thanks for your comments, doug. the senate back at 3:00 p.m. eastern over on c-span2. ahead of that, a certain committee will be meeting not in washington but in atlanta. this is the story from the atlanta journal-constitution. they bring the fighting over voting rights to georgia today. senator amy klobuchar, former

presidential candidate and minnesota democrat, has muscled a panel into the spotlight. the committee will hold a field hearing in atlanta this morning as democrats turned their attention to voting restrictions in georgia and other gop led states to start the push for an elections overhaul. betty in blacksburg, south carolina, good morning. caller: i don't like nothing that he's doing. i think he's just the worst president we have ever had and i am 76 years old. everything he is changing. like, fox news, those people are truthful. they don't lie. i can look at them and tell that they don't lie. but anyhow, everything he is doing, you look at everything he is doing, everything he done when he come in office, everything that from --

everything that trump done. the country looked better then than it does now. i've never seen the likes of it in my life. host: caller? caller: everything the republicans wanted to get, they got. the democrats need to put a stipulation in these bills that the republican senators, if they vote against it, they don't get it in their district. they talk about racism, biden is not doing anything, because they are all still getting the money. if the representative votes against it, they don't get it. bush, reagan, trump ran up debt

with these tax cuts. there's empirical evidence that you can see. obama had to come and clean up. biden had to come and clean up. clinton had to come and clean up. reagan is the one who brought in all these illegal ms 13 from el salvador. look it up. the republicans are undemocratic. host: we are talking about your view of government spending. we heard much of that talked about on the senate floor this week as the senate moves towards taking up measures, beginning table ration on measures -- beginning deliberation on measures, including a 1.3 trillion dollars infrastructure package and a budget proposal. majority leader chuck schumer talked about some of the timetable in his comments last week. [video clip] >> as i have said from the start, madam president, the two

tracks of infrastructure will move in tandem. we are making good progress on both. we heard from the president yesterday on the budget resolution. the meeting was wonderful. the excitement was palpable. the opportunity to do so much good for so many american families was in the air in that meeting. it was exciting. and as that happened it the bipartisan working groups had -- and as that happened, the bipartisan working groups had many meetings on that as well. today, i am announcing that i attend to file cloture on a deal for a bipartisan infrastructure bill next week. senators will have until wednesday of next week before the initial vote on cloture. everyone has been having productive conversations and it is important to keep the process

moving. all parties involved in the bipartisan infrastructure bill talks must finalize their agreements so that the senate can begin to consider that legislation next week, and i am setting the same deadline next wednesday for the entire senate democratic caucus to agree to move forward on the budget resolution with reconciliation instructions. the time has come to make progress and we will, we must. host: on social media, some comments on government spending. "biden and the democrats are on the way to pulling off the impossible. the stimulus saved the economy and prevented business collapses. infrastructure, education, health, military, it set her up

-- military, at -- military, etc. things cost what they cost." the next 1 -- "show the national debt clock." we will look at that from the peterson foundation and the current 28 trillion dollars figure from the peterson foundation on their debt cloc k. the story from the wall street journal on some of the economic aid past during covid -- economic aid pasted during covid. -- districts in tennessee, texas,

california and colorado and states such as georgia have approved four figure thank you bonuses to stave off resignations and boost morale after a year that required virtual teaching and swinging back to in person instruction. georgia was the first state to act, signing off on $1000 bonuses, covering nearly every teacher and staff member, including aides, custodians, bus drivers and cafeteria workers. it was one of the state's biggest expenditures from its allotment of stimulus funds. that from the wall street journal. your view of the economy and government spending. let's hear from bill in jefferson township.

is that missouri, bill, or louisiana? caller: jefferson township -- can you hear me? host: we can. caller: the spending is criminal. and they are going to keep on spending. and they are not going to raise taxes because it is political suicide. and they all want to stay in office for life. ok? all the congress are our rich people -- are are rich people. they are modern day royalty. they ride around in limousines. they have personal security. we are being hoodwinked, ok? we do need infrastructure, though, but we are spending ourselves -- when you-know-what hits the fan, our creditors find

out that we are unable to pay our debt and stop leaving us money -- stop lending us money, you will see a depression like you have never seen before and inflation like you have never seen. i really feel for the young people because they will be burdened with this debt. host: all right. we showed you the debt clock. back to an article from dave boyer of the washington times about who holds the u.s. debt. that in a moment. leo on our democrats line in lowell, arkansas. good morning. caller: good morning. i keep trying to evaluate the total value of the united states , the freeways and everything, as far as maintenance -- can you

hear me? host: we are listening. go ahead. caller: it just seems like even though the $2 trillion or $3 trillion is what the democrats are asking for now, it is just not enough. they want to spread that over 10 years. we have freeways, hospitals, so much infrastructure. the real problem i have is i have a lot of republican friends telling me that there's too much government and everything, but the problem is we need government to permit everything that a hospital does, for instance, so our country runs off of debt. capitalism, debt is part of the whole scenario, so i think it is misinformation for people to

have been hearing for all this time that we have too much debt. we don't have too much debt. let's take our last president. his whole life runs off of debt. that's the way the capitalist system is. i hope i make sense. i think we need to spend more money on infrastructure. thanks very much. host: dave boyer writing about the debt and the proposed spending in the washington times today. he said in that piece that if any or all of the democrats revenue raising proposals fail, the government would have to borrow more to cover the difference. budget analysts say it is unwise to run up more deficits after record-breaking emergency spending in the past year. he writes the total outstanding u.s. debt has climbed to more than $28.4 trillion, although countries such as japan and

china own a substantial sum of u.s. debt, american taxpayers are liable for the vast majority, more than three quarters. japan and china hold 1.1 trillion and 1.2 trillion respectively. the rest is held by banks, state and local governments, and other entities. jerry on the democrats line, go ahead. caller: the department of justice allowed the republican party to operate in violation of the law because note senator -- because no senator -- the balance of power in the constitution of the united states. these three senators voted not guilty on the impeachment of donald trump. his abandonment of the

constitution by donald trump -- the constitution -- i condemn his actions. his violation of the oath of office is illegal. i have been trying to tell the fbi for -- the fbi this for over a year. they will not even talk to me. host: a bipartisan group of senators has agreed to in infrastructure plan that's not been released to the public. one of those senators is republican senator bill cassidy of louisiana. he was on fox yesterday. [video clip] >> senator, as david mentioned, you have the senate majority leader, chuck schumer, calling for a vote on wednesday, a cloture vote, to end the possibility of a filibuster on that infrastructure bill, which has not even been completed yet. two questions. first of all, will you vote for cloture on wednesday?

two, how confident are you that 10 republicans will vote, which is the number you need to blockade filibuster -- to block a filibuster? >> how can i vote for cloture when the bill hasn't been written? you need more time to get it right. it can happen but you need to pay-fors. if we get the pay-fors, we can pass this. that leads to the second issue. we need the senate leadership, schumer, and the white house to work with us. i can tell you that they are not. we are competing with their plan. they want everything reasonable on their side, not helping us. we can pass this, we just don't need programmed failure. >> ok. i want to lock us down before i move onto the $3.5 trillion. you are saying if chuck schumer goes ahead to put a cloture vote

on wednesday, it will fail? >> i just don't know why you would have a cloture vote when you don't have a bill written, when you don't have the pay-fors established. so i have to kind of get my mind around how do we vote on something that is not yet written as we try to get it right. we can get it done, but if they refused to cooperate on the pay-fors, it will not pass. they know that. so how do you vote for cloture on something that's not yet ready? i don't know how to answer that question, chris. >> and, briefly, could it be ready by wednesday or are there too many differences and it will not be ready by wednesday to have a cloture vote? ->> it could be ready. -- >> it could be ready. again, we need cooperation from the white house and schumer on

the pay-fors. we have good faith pay-fors that we agree are good and the white house says we want them for our $3.5 trillion. if you want to make the point that congress doesn't work because you make it so it cannot work, then take a look at the pay-fors. if you want a bipartisan bill that the american people strongly approve of, the cooperate. we can get this done. we just need a little help. host: again, action this week on an infrastructure spending bill and a budget agreement. here is the opinion of a syndicated columnist in the washington post. "joe biden and the social democratic movement" is the headline. he writes "we are living in a new social democratic movement. parties calling themselves by that name are having at best mixed success at the polls and

in the ballot boxes. biden is such a soothing figure that it is easy to miss how much he and his policies reflect this fundamental transformation of politics. sweeping change and not come as a surprise given the trauma the world has confronted since 2016. and the issues right-wing populists brought to the fore forced even the most complacent to confront the changes of the last half-century. this shift toward interventionism has reinforced that has been reinforced by a climate crisis. all this has led to a resurgence of social democracy's core idea -- that market economies can thrive only when governments underwrite them with strong systems of social insurance, new paths to opportunity for those cast aside, and updated rules

to advance social good." let's hear from mike in crescent city, florida on the independent line. your thoughts on government spending and the economy? caller: on this infrastructure bill, the republicans are wondering how to pay for it, when as far as we know -- as i know, we have been spending in afghanistan for years. how are you going to pay for that? how come they keep giving money to farmers and big oil? they keep subsidizing them. as far as i know, that is a socialist program, but they never talk about that. host: here is derek in chicago. welcome. caller: good morning. my view on government spending and the economy is what biden is

trying to do is do the infrastructure, number one, which will create a whole lot of good paying jobs, which will in turn lift the economy and take us out of this downfall, for lack of a better word right now. republicans are always talking about how her we going to pay for it? over the last 30 or 40 years, how did we ever pay for those tax breaks they gave to the wealthy that they didn't need? you know? that should be the first thing asked. how did we pay for them? we just gave them that money, you know? and we were indebted by and the government has been indebted for years. it is ridiculous. host: ok, derek and chicago. -- derek in chicago. this is from rick klein, political director with abc.

he writes that the clock has generally been president joe biden's friend. that goes for how he has seemed to slow the pace. he has managed to lower washington's resting news heart rate after his predecessor despite wild final days. now, the legislative calendar and real world events are reordering priority lists and threatening to leave several big items behind at a time when part of -- when party unity is critical for the biden agenda. this week brings soft headlines on the infrastructure measures. they are expecting to hold a test vote and it has not been written or gone through formal cost estimates. rick on our democrats line, go ahead. sorry about that. go ahead. caller: i have no problem of

infrastructure, spending money on bridges and that stuff, but taxes could be used for infrastructure, which the republicans failed to see. they keep talking about socialism. they have socialism for the rich too. you know what socialism is for the rich? they don't pay taxes, just like donald trump said when running for president. i don't have to pay taxes. that's part of the problem with this country now. host: do you think you will be affected by any tax increase? caller: let me tell you something. i don't make no money. i have been working for 69 years. the best i probably ever made in my lifetime is $40,000 a year. it doesn't matter to me how much taxes i pay. i want to help people. but you have people that don't want to help nobody. president trump cap yakking about this border thing -- trump

kept yakking about this border thing. the thing is, he kept talking about -- people working at his hotels and golf courses and stuff. these people, these dummies out here, saying all these people are murderers and rapists, but those of the people that seem to be working at his hotels and whatnot. he can spend this money on the border. they have dummies in texas saying they will raise money to spend on the border. host: we have about 10, 15 more minutes of your comments and calls on government spending. the lines are, for democrats, (202) 748-8000. for republicans, (202) 748-8001. for independents and others, it is (202) 748-8002. from the opinion pages of the washington times this morning,

this is michael mckinnon -- " vote no on energy taxes." he writes that "taxpayers will pay the equivalent of $1400 a year in new taxes to support the government spending on climate change. an annual energy tax per household seems like a lot, especially for the poor, the elderly, those unfixed income, and institutions like schools or hospitals. do not be fooled, he writes. corporations do not pay taxes. they only collect taxes, and very inefficiently at that. these taxes will ultimately be paid by consumers and the ordinary rate payers president biden claims to care about. there is more bad news. there was a quiet announcement that one of the new taxes embedded in the resolution was

something called a common border adjustment mechanism. that word salad translated into english means the senate democrats have agreed to impose an energy tax on imported goods. that will be paid by consumers who use oil, natural gas, coal or anything transported by trucks, planes, or cars, or anything made of or with oil or natural gas, which means just about everything made by humans." (202) 748-8000 for democrats, (202) 748-8001 for republicans. jerry is on the republican line. your thoughts on the government spending? caller: yes. i cannot figure out why they got this trillion-dollar bill, but only, like, what, 9% is going to actually infrastructure? and i don't understand the democratic party and i used to be a democrat. i cannot be that no more because that's all they want to do is

fight and argue and lie about stuff, and it is like, i just don't understand why we spend money in these other countries that don't care about us or nothing and we are spending trillions of dollars, sending over there, for what? for nothing, like afghanistan. why are we rebuilding the country when we can rebuild our own with the money? i just don't understand. people want to fight, fight, fight, fight, and there is no sense in it, because as long as we are fighting, we will never get nothing done. thank you. host: john in woodbridge, pennsylvania. john is on the democrats line. go ahead. caller: i am a small business person and apparently they are trying to pay with the taking of taxes. it is pretty sad when you

are a small business and you didn't owe any taxes last year but now they charge you for filing late when i thought there was an extension going on during the pandemic. so it is just really hurtful how they just keep putting us small people down farther in the hole. we still haven't gotten any of the ppp money. we are still working on that. the small businesses have had it tough. host: are you running a small business now? caller: i am. host: and you did not get money from the ppp money? caller: yes. i did not. host: did you ever get a reason for why not? caller: i got lied to by my bank, saying that they didn't have the right pay-for or this and that and it has just been a fiasco. i mean, it is a lot of us still waiting. caller: we will talk more --

host: we will talk more next hour about the 2020 for election -- the 2024 election with author michael wolff. "mike pence was met by a respectful and even warm crowd during his first trip to iowa since the election. he was clapped at in des moines. he was 'honorable'and a 'man of faith' people said. one may call him a consistent conservative voice. but few people said that what they saw in pins was the republican nominee -- saw in pence was the republican

nominee. in the most recent cpac straw poll, pence flatlined. he was heckled and called a traitor in florida last month." back to our conversation on the budget and government spending and the plan to take up an infrastructure package. rob portman of ohio critical of the majority leader's plan. here is what he said. [video clip] >> you and your colleagues are working through the weekend to try to finalize the infrastructure bill. will it be ready by wednesday? >> we are still working on it. it is more important to get it right then to meet an arbitrary deadline and we are still negotiating. in fact, last night, i was negotiating final details with the white house. we will have conditional negotiations with republicans and democrats who will come together to put this ability to attract that's unusual for washington. people are used till legislation

being on the republican or democratic side. this is confusing for people because it is actually 11 republicans and 11 democrats putting this together. chuck schumer, with all due respect, is not writing the bill. nor is mitch mcconnell, by the way. that is why we should not have an arbitrary deadline. we should bring the legislation forward when it is ready. it is incredibly important legislation. we have a situation where we have crippling infrastructure hurting our efficiency, and therefore our productivity and competitiveness. china spends more on infrastructure than we do, for example. every president in modern history has said we need to do a massive investment in infrastructure. president obama, president trump. president trump had a $1.5 trillion proposal in his budget. it is important that we get it done. it has to be done in a thoughtful, bipartisan way. we don't want to rush this

and make mistakes. host: the senate coming back into session today at 3:00 p.m. eastern on c-span two. the schedule ahead in the senate this week, again, over on c-span two. we have not talked much about the house. a washington times article does. "house lawmakers returned to work with only days before recess. the house will also be vying to influence senate negotiations of president biden's 1.9 trillion dollars traditional infrastructure bill and the $3.5 trillion package on health care, childcare, anti-poverty spending known as the human infrastructure bill. the big show in the house will be the first hearing of the january 6 select midi. -- select committee, set for tomorrow at 9:30 a.m. eastern. it will feature members of the capitol police and d.c.

metropolitan police who were on duty the day of the attack. house minority leader kevin mccarthy has remained quiet on which republicans, if any, he will appoint. most republicans oppose the select committee, saying it is a political effort by democrats to plate donald trump and -- to blame donald trump and the gop for the violence. asking you about government spending. our line for the democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents and others, (202) 748-8002. some thoughts on social media and via text. tony says we were taught the power of compound interest in growing wealth, but nobody seems to think about the compounding of debt. eventually, the debt curve will be so steep we will have economic collapse. lease on facebook says too much spending by both parties. they seem to forget it isn't there money. spent it on the country instead

of giving it to wealthy people. chris says this -- investments need to be made on emerging technologies that would allow the deficit spending to potentially pay for itself. i think multitrillion dollar investments into the pavement would be foolhardy. here is howard in utica, michigan on our republican line. go ahead, howard. caller: good morning. in regards to government spending, i am in favor of the infrastructure bill. the country is suffering tremendously from the decay over the last decades. in terms of paying for the infrastructure, i think it is clear and obvious that we should look at corporate taxes and a modest increase on the wealthiest in this country. it is clear that those two segments can afford it more than the working class. as a lifelong republican,

i have decided i could no longer be a republican after four years of trump, but in terms of spending, there are a number of areas we could look at. the $20 trillion in afghanistan would be a perfect example. but putting it together, it should be approved without question. host: robert in newton falls on the independent line, go ahead. newton falls, new york. caller: yes. hi. how are you doing? host: fine, thanks. caller: i just don't understand. i thought this was for the covid virus, this spending bill, and they are giving other countries the money that they don't need to, but this is the way they pocket and hide the money that they are stealing from the american people, our government. it is a shame that, as an

american people, we cannot work together. instead, they are destroying it. they are trying to make it into a communist country. i don't understand the reason why that is. i just don't understand. they want to take our guns away, our freedom of speech away. they are spending our money. who is going to pay for all of that? your children, my children? who? host: more ahead in washington journal. we will be joined by author michael wolff. his new book is landslide: the final days of the trump presidency. later on, covid infections are back on the rise. at 9:00, we will be joined by infectious disease expert dr. william schaffner of vanderbilt university to answer your questions about vaccination rates and the impact of the delta variant. ♪

>> tonight on the communicators -- >> the reason ransomware has become such a problem is it has become a huge threat, not only a cyber criminal threat, but as you mentioned, because of the implications for critical infrastructure like pipeline companies or the largest meat supplier in the country. these are significant targets and have increasingly become something cyber criminals are targeting, so what it is as a concept is simple. defending against it has become complex. >> he led cyber investigations during the trump administration. he discusses recent ransomware attacks and other cyber threats. >> this week in congress, the house returns from his fourth of

july break with government spending, voting rights. the bill that would speed up the visa process for afghans that work with the u.s. government, as u.s. troops withdraw from that country. majority leader schumer plans to move for a bipartisan infrastructure program. he said a wednesday deadline for democrats to agree on a $3.5 trillion budget resolution. watch the senate live on c-span 2, and the house live on c-span. announcer: c-span shop.org is c-span's online store. there is a selection of products. browse to see what's new. your purchase will support our nonprofit operations. you still have the opportunity to order our directory. go to c-spanshop.org.

"washington journal" continues. host: michael wolff is with us, the author of seven books, including three on the trump presidency and the latest, " landslide: the final days of the trump presidency." welcome to "washington journal." guest: thank you for having me. host: was it always your plan to write about the final days of the trump presidency, or did the situation on the inauguration, january 6 included, drive you to write this book? guest: i had no intention of writing a third book. i thought two was plenty. but then january 6 happened, and i thought, you know, how can i walk away from this story? this story has immense implications for the moment, for the future. it was a story that for better or for worse, i thought i knew

as well as anyone, and i put my boots back on. host: he also wrote "fire and fury" and "each -- "siege." what struck me was the sense of chaos around the election returns and the whole period of challenging the election, generally six. did that surprise you at all? guest: well, no, i mean, the underlying theme probably of the three books i've written about the trump administration is, to say the least, chaos. i think maybe it even goes further than chaos. a through the looking glass dysfunction about the trump white house has been kind of an epic story.

but having said that, the period after the election on november 3 came even more for the top administration, saying quite something. even more out of control, even more disconnected from all standard measures and functional reality. host: how do you approach writing these books on the president in terms of getting to sources, including the accounts of -- how are you able to make such good contacts with people and get such good information on what was going on? guest: i was speaking to a friend not long ago, bragging about the fact that i had written this last book in about four months, and my friend said, well, you've had a lot of practice. and i think that is the answer.

i have been doing this through three books. i have come to know probably nearly everyone in the trump orbit, or in the succession of orbits, because most of the people in the trump administration have cycled in and cycled out. but for some, again, for better or worse, i have become, i suppose, a kind of a trump -- host: i won't give away the end of the book, but you included an interview with the president. you put critical books on former president trump, and the end of the book concludes with your visit to mar-a-lago. did that surprise you, getting invited to speak to the president about this particular book, about "landslide"? guest: i think in a world beyond

surprise. after fire and fury came out, the president threatened to sue me, tried everything to stop the publication of the book, declared he had never met me, although i've known him for 20 years. and went on many twitter rants about how low and dishonest i was. so i thought then, i guess that's it for that relationship. but when i started to write "landslide" and was talking to many of the people around the president, one of them went to him and said, hey, i was working on a third book, that was kind of a warning to the former president. but he said, that guy, he gets ratings, let's see him.

i have been invited to mar-a-lago to interview the president, an interview that turned out to go for quite a number of hours. and then to have dinner with the former president and the former first lady. host: michael wolff is our guest on "washingon journal," his book "landslide: the final days of the trump presidency." we welcome you to call. the lines to call our for democrats, 202-748-8000, for republicans, 202-748-8001, after independents, 202-748-8002. in the book you write about the preparation that chris christie was playing joe biden in a debate. the former new jersey governor.

an on-again, off-again trump ally, participating in the trump debate rehearsal. was donald trump, in your view, talking off the top of his head, or being semi-serious there? guest: donald trump is always just talking off the top of his head. there is never any preparation. there appears to be never any pre-thought or consideration

that he has gone through, for whatever he has said. so there is not this or that. it is not a situation in which you can say he is talking off his head now but when he said it it was with some seriousness, because it is all just endless, endless, endless blah-blah. so you cannot ever really say is he serious, does he even remember this minutes from now? host: you right that stories would be told in confidence knowing that information would be leaked immediately. do you think donald trump was aware and was ok with information being -- certain information being linked -- leaked to the press during the course of his presidency?

guest: other leaking, it became a tool of policy, essentially. many of the people around -- and i think this is an important point -- many of the people around him basically saw their jobs as frustrating what the president might want to do. that is a large statement. the president of the united states, they are supposed to be there to implement the things that he wanted to get done. but his staff, the trump staff, in this ever greater in version -- inversion of reality, felt their jobs were exactly the opposite. trump would say weird stuff, and you had to distract him from

this or you had to slow-walk whatever the things that he suggests, that he was suggesting work, or you had to leak to the press so that the public outcry would stop it. but always with the main intention of getting in the way of the mostly ridiculous things that the president might want to do. host: but chief among those frustrate her's, you write, were jared kushner and ivanka trump, the president's daughter. did their status at all change during the course of the period you write about from the election, through the inauguration? did their influence with the president change? guest: i think that their influence has always remained basically stable because they

understood the limits of their influence. more than any people in the white house, yes, they could have influenced, but that always came up against the barrier of a president who, letter a, doesn't listen to anyone, b, can't really be reasons with in any conventional sense, and, c, left the thread of the conversation in short order. you could influence him about things that he didn't care about , or things he was not going to remember, or things that he couldn't quite comprehend. but if he got it into his head

that there was something he believed in, like the election steel, then you had to steer clear. jared and ivanka, certainly by a week be on the election, new that they could have no effect, so basically absented themselves from any involvement with the election challenge. host: you write that after charlottesville, something of a dress for herschel from the -- for the -- dress rehearsal for the capitol onslaught, had a kinder, gentler approach to the present. i have a photo here, michael wolff, from the press briefing

room, the president speaking, the comments he made from the video late in the day on january 6, that he made and released towards those -- getting recorded and out to the public. guest: there are two important levels here. first that the decision was made , strongly suggested that he not make a life statement. the press was clamoring for him to come out and say something, to deal with this violence as normally you might think that a president would. but the advisors around him -- and that included ivanka, arc meadows, if you other people -- mark meadows, a few other people in the white house, were very clear that he should not make a life statement because it was

very possible that the same thing that happened to trump would happen here, that he would veer toward support of the protesters. so they decided to make a video, and again, ivanka was involved in this, and mark meadows and several other people. it is notable how few people there were, however, in the white house at this point on january 6. i mean, i tried to actually count how many, and, you know, you're really talking about a relative handful of people. mostly everyone had gotten out or quit by then. host: when mark meadows came down shortly after the election, it seems to open the door to in floors years on the -- to

influencers on the former president. how big of a loss was that to have his chief of staff at that point down with covid for several weeks? guest: it was big. you know, one of the things that it wasn't just meadows, but among the people around the president, they had worked assiduously, and this was really since the first impeachment, to keep rudy giuliani out of the white house. but then with meadows, it was a combination of meadows getting sick and the president always shopping for someone to tell him exactly what he wanted to hear that allowed rudy giuliani to come back into the white house. host: we have michael wolff with us until 9:00 eastern. we want to hear from you, 202-748-8000 free democrats, 202-748-8001 for republicans,

and independents, 202-748-8002. jimbo from bakersfield says this -- i think he means 2022 -- guest: i think very much. that's what the setup is, and that is the direction that the discussion now heads. at the same time, i must say that the former president is absolutely convinced that he will be the determining factor in many races, and that they will capture the -- they will retake the house.

if not the senate. so that is the somewhat confusing thing. if they win, at that point does the president say the election system is sound and certainly works? host: let's hear from callers. joe in stamford, connecticut, republican line. go ahead. caller: good morning, mr. wolff. mr. wolf, i just software they showed an excerpt from your book where you stated about the charlottesville -- i was wondering where you saw the whole video where he condemns everybody. i was curious if you sold that saw the whole video. guest: i have, yes. caller: so why didn't you put the whole thing in there, except

just when he said there is find people on both sides. this man has been called a racist over a fallacy, and you know that. but you keep going with the same thing. have a great day, mr. wolff. guest: thanks. host: brenda, go ahead. guest: good morning. where there any wellsprings or rumors in the white house that donald trump might issue a blanket pardon tell the people that were in the capitol on january 6? it's my understanding that jimmy carter issued a blanket pardon to all the draft dodgers that avoided the vietnam war, so it seems as though a blanket pardon is possible. did trump ever consider a blanket pardon of all his loyal support of soldiers, or did he

just leave them on the battlefield? guest: if so, i don't know that that happens. host: wilhelm, upcoming in lawrenceburg, missouri. go ahead. caller: hi, mr. wolff. i wonder if you saw the video on january 6, where all the people was marching up to the capitol. trump always told lies and told lies, and that's all i have. already. guest: yes, i'm just missing the question there. host: our caller left. in terms of -- let's talk about mike pence sen. hirono: on the january 6 -- andy -- about mike pence on that january 6 -- where is his relationship with the former president? guest: at this point i would say

it is near to nonexistent. the former president became convinced that mike pence had the power to reverse the electoral vote, and that he would in fact use that power on the president's behalf. and essentially install the president for a second term on january 20. this was absurd and preposterous , and mike pence had told him again and again and again that this could not happen and would not happen. but the president continued to believe that. and when it did not happen, when mike pence did not do this, he was regarded as a profound betrayal.

and although there has been some minor effort to put a better face on this, the president continues to be deeply resentful about his former vice president. host: the attack on the u.s. capitol live to the second impeachment of donald trump. you said that trump was ranting to his legal team that he did not want the trial going down this way -- technicalities, free speech, jurisdiction baloney for them he wanted -- here was a chance to lay out the case. indeed, the former president propose he make the case himself on the senate floor. but here is the one argument virtually everybody associated with the case had no doubt we get the president convicted. once again, everybody was trying to get trump saved from himself,

never a promising proposition. how close to that reality become, the stolen election line, this part of his legal team's arguments? guest: the second impeachment was such a comedy, such a collection of the gang that shouldn't -- that couldn't shoot straight, such a disorganized mess, that i'm not sure you could say that there was anything that was close to happening, because what happened ultimately was completely random. the lawyers didn't know their client, they didn't know the president, they were barely speaking to him. even on the phone. they did not know the case.

you had various lawyers quitting in the middle of it. i mean, this was -- i mean, i understand you're are defending the former president of the united states before the united states senate, prosecuted by the united states congress. it was a -- you know, the president was as prepared as if he were going into traffic court. host: let's go to sarah next, with michael wolff, from sterling, virginia. go ahead. caller: good morning, mr. wolff. i'm not a psychologist, but i would say that mr. trump had a narcissistic personality. yet he got -- when he demanded the loyalty from not only people in the congress, but his followers and everything, did it ever dawn on some of the people

that, you know, he was a hindrance of a danger to our democracy? did they ever question his mental ability to even lead the united states? did that ever come up with any discussion that you had with his followers? thank you. guest: i think -- and i say this with all sincerity and without any intention at hyperbole here. i think that everyone who has come into contact with donald trump knows that there is something wrong with him, that there is -- that he is not like you and i. the gears don't work. call it what you will. but that there is something crazy about donald trump. and i think that in terms of the

dangers here, yeah, i think almost everybody understood that there were dangers here. it also, over the course of four years, came to understand that donald trump had no follow-through. he really had no policy goals, no clear intentions beyond just getting as much attention for himself as he could possibly get. for better or worse, certainly the republicans, or many of the republicans, decided that they could live with this. that they could accomplish their goals because donald trump himself really had no goals of his own. so that, i would say, comes pretty close to the devil's bargain that the republican

party made with the former president. host: i'm struck by the contradiction between donald trump's well-known reputation as a great fundraiser for candidates, and the reporting in your book and others elsewhere that by late summer of 2020, the campaign had a 200 billion doubt -- $200 million budget gap. i think you write that the campaign budget was in freefall. explain that country dish and, michael wolff. guest: i think what happened is that trump, throughout donald trump's career, he has looked at the top line and ignore the bottom line. that is to say, he has going around saying he is a man worth $10 billion without accounting for the fact that at most points he owes as much as $10 billion.

so everyone at the campaign knew that there was one ledger he was looking at, which is how much money had they raised? how much money came in through the door? he was never looking at how much had it cost them to raise that much money. so in effect, the campaign was spending vastly more than they should have to attract what was overwhelmingly all those online donors. so at the end of the day -- at that point in the summer when the first campaign manager was fired and a new campaign manager came in, they looked at the budget and said, you know, we are $200 million in the hole here. and in fact they went into the last week, unprecedented, being

outspent by the challenger nearly three to one. host: let's go to lee in west olive, michigan, republican line. caller: mr. wolff, how can you say that donald trump is crazy and had no plan? this is just another hit job book. donald trump's policies were working. unemployment was at an all-time low. he rebuilt the military, trade deals with china. i mean, he took care of the vets. he didn't have any plans or policies? he had the best policies. he had the best policies this country has ever seen come and it was working. you guys just ignore that and say donald trump is a jerk. quit hating on the man. he's the best president we have ever had.

he had millions and millions of followers, and you're calling everybody stupid. host: any response? guest: my only response is that this is the third book i have written. i have spoken to everyone around the president, including the president, at great length. so i'm just reflecting the experience that the people around him have had, the experience that i have had, spending a great deal of time with these people, and i would say that the policies, if you like the former president's policies, they largely came from sources other than the president himself, who is not concerned with policies, who really had little interest in politics per se.

certainly was an absent manager in the executive branch. and who was a man who exists in the moment, holy obsessed with the intention -- with the attention he would get from the public or from his fan base, his audience. so again, this is my experience. that's what i bring to the books that i write. this is what i saw. host: you write about the multiples of candidates, potential republican candidates coming to mar-a-lago to see his endorsement. what about donald trump himself? what is your feeling on him running for president in 2024? guest: i think it is subject

very much on his mind at this moment. host: we will hear from bill in riverside, california. go ahead. caller: good morning. host: good morning. caller: i agree with your last caller. it seems this wolff guy is sort of -- host: bill, you're breaking up. call back again and see if we can get a clear connection with you. we will go to maine, ann, on the democrats line. caller: thank you. i would like to suggest that trump is not the problem, that the republican party was trump before trump come and sadly it will be trump after trump. it goes back to gingrich

normalizing rhetoric. you have in the trump administration, you had all these people willing to spin trump's worst fantasies into even worse attacks on the ground. one of the reasons that was popular is it was all about necessary appealing language, like pro-life and trickled down, and all these rhetorical phrases that don't reflect the realities , and that religion -- it is not just practices, it is a mindset that invites a certain irrationality. it is unmoored from the empirical evidence and debate that we need to have for government. host: michael wolff guest: guest:? guest: i don't disagree with the caller. i would present that donald trump presents a further

separate problem from the problems one might have with the republican party. the separate problem, to my mind, is that he's crazy. somehow we managed to elect a president who is -- who operates in an altogether separate reality. not just from democrats but also from, often, republicans. i am not sure that we have quite come to grips with the meaning of this, with how a crazy man could become president of the united states. and exercise such a hold over so many people in the republican party. host: you right in the day are

two after the election, that jack morris responded with projections of a win in pennsylvania, by 117,000 votes in michigan, and by 147, james o'keefe, started to circulate a video of u.s. postal insider outlining a litany of abuses in pennsylvania, all of which would be debunked by federal investigators. the cpac moderator and trump operative match lap -- matt schlapp --

one of those, michael wolff, was rudy giuliani, longtime associate of the president. how did really -- how did rudy giuliani come back into the postelection period in the white house? guest: again, i think a lot of the people around the president -- for one thing, they were always trying to keep him out, so that was one of the priorities of the trump white house, or the people who worked for the president, was to keep rudy out. they didn't trust him for a full array of reasons, among them his drinking, his incredible disorganization. the fact that he would say almost anything that the president wanted to hear. essentially his desperation to

do anything to be back in the spotlight. many people blame rudy giuliani for most of the terrible things, including the impeachment of the president, that happened in the trump administration. so there was a real -- you know, a real guard against -- posted to keep rudy out. but a combination of factors, mostly having to do with the fact that the president is always looking for someone to say what he wants to hear, and at the end of the day, after it had become clear to everyone around the president that he had lost the election, and this was clear -- the election was on

tuesday, so by friday the results of the election were pretty much clear to everyone. at the end of the day, only rudy was willing to say to him, no, mr. president, you actually won the election, and they had just stolen it from him. that is how rudy, largely a drunken rudy, came back into the white house. host: what is the relationship between rudy giuliani and donald trump today? guest: they don't speak. rudy is not even allowed to call the president. this has happened multiple times over the last four years. rudy is allowed in, makes a mess, and then it is pushed back out. also, rudy wants money from the president. so no matter who you are, how

loyal you have been, how much -- the president might be -- once you start saying that he pay you, then his mood changes. host: let's go to jim, mulberry tennessee, independent line. jim in tennessee, go ahead. caller: yes, i would like to say that i agree with mr. wolff, and i have a comment. i would like to say that donald trump started out his presidency saying that mexico would pay for the wall, and he was wrong about that. so then he said he was going to just tax mexican products, and he was wrong about that. so he switched to health care and said he would repeal and replace obamacare. and he was wrong, and wrong about that. then he said he would found --

that he would possibly pay it off -- seriously wrong again. he said he would flip the trade deficit. and he was wrong about that. he said the virus was a hoax. wrong again. he said it would go away. he said obama was born in africa. he said obama didn't have a birth certificate. everything the guy has ever said was wrong. the sanctions, the trade war is wrong. thank you. host: ok, jim. michael wolff, any response? guest: well, i agree with everything the caller has pointed out, but i think you have to understand a greater context here come which is that

the president is always just talking. the president will say anything. the president -- in a way, i'm tempted to say you cannot really hold the president accountable for the wrong things he says, because he says whatever comes into his head. there is no thought there, there is no consideration. there is no analysis. we and certainly everyone around him, is just subjected to the sound of his own voice, which is the thing he most likes. host: you mentioned before that he was not interested in policy. was that a trait of his throughout his career, or he just wasn't interested in political politics itself. guest: i think both of those things.

his career would not have been spent in the political or policy world. there would be no reason for him to be securely interested in policy. basically has had two jobs. he was in the real estate business, and he was a television actor. so to suppose that he would then arrive in the white house, arriving in the white house with -- that was one of the greatest historical flukes possibly of all time. and then discover intrinsic policy and knowledge about policy, and he has no knowledge, no particular knowledge about the workings of government, or the purpose of government, or the craft of managing large governmental institutions. to think that he would suddenly

discover that, well beyond what he should expect, and then in fact that certainly did not happen in any way, shape, or form. host: next up is sarah in coal city, indiana. caller: hello. host: sarah, make sure you mute your volume and go ahead with your comment, otherwise you would mute -- you would get feedback. caller: i get so tickled at all you people when you write books about trump and all that i don't know what happens when you don't have anything else to write about. i'm 67 years old. donald trump was the best president we ever had. and for all the people out there to be badmouthing him and stuff, it shows you right there that you don't have anything better to say. look at mr. biden. stayed in the basement the whole campaign, never came out at all.

and he winds up winning? do you think we are that stupid? i can't believe it. and mr. biden has alzheimer's, and you're calling trump not in his right mind? host: frank wolf, you write about the strategy of the biden campaign, colors saying that now president biden was in the -- the trump campaign, they were frustrated by the biden strategy. is that correct? guest: very much so. the whole campaign, and this is reflecting -- i hear the views of the people inside the campaign, what a catastrophe. probably one of the worst run campaigns in presidential history. not only from the money standpoint, and that was a vast

problem, that the refusal of the candidate to take the most obvious advice, to tailor his campaign, to do the kinds of things which would have made a meaningful difference. the posters came to him at one point and said -- and these are his posters -- they said, if you are just a little more positive about math -- masks, your base support their wearing of masks. wearing masks has upwards of a 70% approval rating amongst your base. it will make a substantial difference if you merely don't attack mask wearing and mass wearers. he refused to do that. similarly, when his posters came

to him and said, if you don't -- if you oppose mail-in voting -- you don't even have to accept it , just oppose it a little bit less vigorously, that will help. and in fact, because he came quite close to winning this race , on those two points, all of his campaign steps -- he continues to believe if he had only done that, they in fact would have won. host: you write about this in the book, but the bottom line is, who does the president -- can you get an answer from the former on who he thinks stole the election or rigged the election? guest: you know, i wrote to him and said, ok, if you believe this election was stolen,

stealing an election in this country has got to be one of the -- one of the greatest conspiracies we might ever have experienced. this requires planning on a national and local level. it is a massive -- a massive job. so i said, who did it? who coordinated things here? who stole it? he said he knows who stole this election, but he didn't want to tell me then. he will tell me in the future. host: you said he will tell you in the future? guest: yes. host: so there could be a fourth book, michael wolff. guest: i hope not, but it's donald trump. host: michigan, nikki -- make

sure you have your volume and go that you mute your volume and go ahead with your comments. caller: thank you for having me on your show. i wanted to say thank you to mr. wolff, being honest in putting himself out there. my statement would be, for all the people who followed trump and our pro-trump verse, do your due diligence. you don't like whatf mr. wolf -- what mr. wolff is saying, don't be a follower. united we stand, divided we fall full-time and president biden and president harris -- president trump that you all love, he is crazy. mr. wolff is correct, and he is dangerous. mr. wolff is correct.

i want to thank mr. wolff. i will be reading your book and being a follower. thank you, sir. guest: thank you. host: jean in phoenix, arizona. go ahead. caller: good morning. two main items. first, i don't know how fast you can retrieve c-span files -- can your people go to december 8, 2020? look under the senate committee of all things under homeland security, and the topic is going to be hydroxychloroquine. that is one of the items that i believe this book is going to attack. the second thing, i believe you just quoted from his book, wolff

-- by the way, who is a liar. we had an audit done on maricopa county, having to do with mail-in ballots. you ready for this? biden received 74,000 more votes then mail-in ballots were mailed out. let me rephrase that or say it a different way. they mailed out x amount of mail-in balance. will they receive 74,000 more ballots for biden that were mailed out? host: michael wolff, a chance for you to respond. the caller did call you a liar. it is fair to get you to response to that. guest: i have no response. the caller can think what he wants. host: go ahead. caller: i'm sitting here looking at this guy, and he looks like a

total joke. i mean, he is just -- host: you can call in and agree or disagree with our guest, but do not call in to insult the looks or the background of our guest. that is beyond the realm of civilized conversation. we will go to mark in fort lauderdale, florida. good morning. caller: yes, hello. as always, thank you for c-span. i'm especially happy to be getting through to mr. wolf. f hell? -- hello? host: you're on the air, go ahead. caller: you mentioned something critical. how could someone steal a national election, broken down into states, counties, cities in one day? no one could really point that out, outside trump saying probably in the future. that being said, i hope you keep

writing and i hope you keep following, but i think your next book should be about how people taking these trumpism's down into the county level and the people who have been calling you up, you hear how they talk. they are practically spitting. the one guy who spoke coherently just reiterated the talking points of what -- of how successful trump was come which are outright lies. but we are on the cusp right now of something major, with the votes in several states, the attempts at the audits. it does not bode well for the future. if the democrats cannot get their act together right now with the voting rights act, the various voting rights acts, somehow, they are not going to be able to stop the takeover from the east coast. i have said my piece. i look forward to hearing your response. host: thank you, mark.

michael wolff. guest: you know, i largely -- i personally agree with the caller. you know, i like to restrict what i talk about and what i write about to actually what i am directly seeing, and certainly the fight over voting access in this country is a large one, a real one. my concern, however, has been getting as close to donald trump as i possibly can and getting to understand who this man is and what makes him tick, and to understand the -- what i would

have to conclude is an incredibly peculiar, if not twisted, psyche. so that is my specialty. voting, the campaign for voting rights is not. but i also agree that it is an extremely important issue. host: your book ends with an epilogue, a visit to mar-a-lago. in that, you say trump is -- in that, you say --

michael wolff, do you think he is happy in that role? guest: i do. i don't think that -- donald trump has not really, in my view, meaningfully changed from the donald trump in trump tower, the donald trump in the white house, the donald trump in mar-a-lago. he is the same person, he conducts himself in the same way. the presidency really did not alter how donald trump fills his day, or changed his focus. one of the things that i think is often said is that the presidency changes whoever occupies the office.

but i don't think that's been true about donald trump. he has remained singularly donald trump, and i think that is another curious point, is that he doesn't have to be the president to yet be donald trump. that is also a dangerous point, because it is not -- it is not president donald trump who has enthralled so much of the country. it is donald trump, whatever that character is, whatever role that actor -- which is what he is in many respects -- is playing. host: a couple more calls. we go to shirley in north carolina. good morning. caller: i don't think john will

trump -- donald trump is crazy. he might be narcissistic, but the biden white house is -- guest: is it possible that i could interrupt you before u.s. your question, just to make an observation? -- just to make an observation? caller: go ahead. guest: i appreciate this. because my in-laws are supporters of donald trump, and they say the same thing. they say to me, donald trump is not crazy. and i say to them, you know, i am the only person you know who has actually met donald trump. i have spent an enormous amount of time with him. so it is perfectly -- you have the right to decide this, but i'm always curious on what basis you and my in-laws can say with such certainty, that you have

such faith's in donald trump -- faith in donald trump's acuity. caller: ok. when do you think the doctors are going to come in and declare biden with dementia? host: we will go to max in enid, oklahoma, on the independent line. go ahead. caller: thanks for taking my call. i find this guest rich. he is really spotlighting the academic, disingenuous type of behavior in d.c. they love to dislike this guy. i'm not going to use the terms like joke or liar, but it is rich to hear somebody take umbrage with those terms when his book is about a person being clinically unfit to hold the

office that he only won because people were obsessed with him. all of the smart news they couldn't get enough of this guy coming down the escalator from day one. i'd never vote for the guy, but he was on tv but free airtime for the entire election. he didn't have to pay for a single minute of press because people like mr. wolff are infatuated with him. you need to step back and look at what you are creating. for every action there is an equal but opposite host: reaction. host:michael wolf -- but opposite reaction. host: michael wolf, your thoughts? >> i would encourage the caller to read my book and he will come with a different understanding of what happens with the nature of of one of the strangest

historical moments in the history of this country. host: we appreciate you spending the hour with us. michael wolff with the new book "landslide: the final days of the trump presidency." up next we will talk about the rising rate of covid infection across the country, the impact of the delta variant we will speak with dr. william schaffner from the vanderbilt university medical center. ♪ >> tonight on "the communicators." >> ransomware is a problem because it has become a huge threat not only a cyber criminal threat but because of the implications for critical infrastructure like pipeline companies or the largest meat

suppliers in the country these are significant targets, and they've increasingly become something cyber criminals are targeting. ransomware as a concept is pretty simple. defending against it has become increasingly complex. >> he oversaw the justice department's national security and cyber crime investigations during the trump administration. he discusses recent ransomware attacks and other cyber threats. tonight on the communicators at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span two. >> this week in congress, the house returns from his fourth of july break with work on government spending, infrastructure, and voting rights. they will vote later in the week on a bill that would speed up the visa process for afghans that worked with the u.s. government as u.s. troops withdraw from that country. in the senate, majority leader schumer plans to move on a bipartisan infrastructure

measure with a key vote as early as wednesday. he also set a wednesday deadline for democrats to agree on a 3.5 trillion dollars budget resolution. watch the senate live on c-span2 and the house live on c-span. ♪ >> weekends on c-span two are an intellectual feast. every saturday you will find events and people that explore our nation's past. on sundays, book tv brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors. it's television for serious readers. learn, discover, explore. weekends on c-span2. ♪ >> washington journal continues. host: joining us again on washington journal is dr. william schaffner from

vanderbilt medical center, welcome back to washington journal. dr .schaffner: good to be with you. host: we are having you on as covid cases arise around the country great reflected in this headline from usa today, fourth wave of virus hits the u.s., unvaccinated kids and adults suffer most from this spread. this is coming from the delta variant. are you surprised by these numbers going up or is this to have been expected given the recent fourth of july holiday? dr. schaffner: i'm concerned about it for sure and somewhat distressed, but not surprised. this delta variant is extraordinarily contagious, so it is spreading widely. initially this virus was affecting people who were older. many of them have now been vaccinated, so this virus is now seeking out and honing in on people who are unvaccinated, middle-aged and younger adults,

adolescents and down into children also. it doesn't surprise me and cases are going up, behind them a czar rising and it is likely that deaths will rise also. unless of course we get vaccinated. because the vaccines we currently have, once we use them are effective against this delta variant. >> is there any indication that because of this variant, potential future variance, a booster either with the moderna, pfizer, or johnson & johnson vaccine will be needed? dr. schaffner: that's a frequently asked question and it's asked by the people who have been vaccinated already. they are attentive to this and concerned. let's think about the two things that would be reasons for us to get a booster vaccination. the first is there our current

protections that we have from the vaccine that is waning and all of a sudden people who are vaccinated start to become ill with this virus. that has not happened yet. the other is that we have a new variant on the scene that invades the protection of our vaccines. that also has not happened. in the immediate future they protection we have seems to be sustained and we don't need to get a booster right now. however a year from now or two years from now let's play those cards when they are dealt. stay tuned, it wouldn't surprise me if we need a booster in the future, but not right now. right now rather than a third dose for everyone who has been vaccinated we need to focus on the folks who have not gotten there first dose yet. that is where we need to pay attention. host: the vaccines that we currently have, in terms of

these variants that come up, are the vaccines as they go along, are they retooled to handle these variants? dr. schaffner: so far it has not been necessary to retool the vaccines. when the new variance show up they are tested immediately in the lab to see if they match with what we have in the vaccine. so far we have a pretty darn good match. if other new variance show up that suddenly threaten the population of the united states and the rest of the world, then we would create a new vaccine and we would have to start all over again. host: if one is not vaccinated and gets covid and gets the new variant, does that provide immunity for future versions or strains of covid? dr. schaffner: yes.

if you have covid and recover you will have a measure of protection going forward. here is the interesting thing. this was a bit of a surprise for most people. the measure of protection you get from the vaccine is higher than the measure of protection that you get from the actual infection. that is why we suggest that everyone who is recovered from covid nonetheless still needs to get vaccinated. because that higher level of protection you get from the vaccine probably provides more durable or long-lasting protection and likely also provides more protection against the various variants that are out there. even though you did not -- you have recovered you still need to get a vaccine. host: we know a number of states

are under vaccinated across the country, in particular some states in the south and places like arkansas. do you think that the country as a whole has somewhat let down our guard in terms of vaccinations and being vigilant for covid? have we opened up too soon? have we loosened restrictions too soon? dr. schaffner: i have to admit tennessee is one of those states that is under vaccinated, to my great concern. it has been said in the media that there are two americas. there is the america that is very concerned about this virus that have complied with the vaccination, and then there is a large group of people who remain very dubious, skeptical, concerned, and some downright stubborn about the impact of covid itself and many aspects of the vaccine.

then there are some people who don't like to be told what to do and they are withholding themselves from the vaccination for that reason which i believe is unfortunate. let me just say a word about that, because one of the most frequent reasons i here for not being vaccinated is that it is their individual decision and they will make that decision when they feel like. there is an element of truth to that. it's not the whole story. here decision, you see this as a contagious virus. your decision not to be vaccinated could have implications for people around you, we all give up some of our individual decision-making in order to live together. when we all drive cars we drive on the green and stop on the red

, not being vaccinated is like driving on the red. yes you made your own personal decision to get where you are going, but it puts other people around you at risk. not being vaccinated is like driving on the red. host: dr. william schaffner joining us from vanderbilt. we welcome your comments and questions. the line for those of you who have been vaccinated against covid and for those of you who have not, -- the line for those of you have been vaccinated, (202) 748-8000, the line for those of you who have not, (202) 748-8001. the effective vaccination efforts on the youth in tennessee. tennessee abandons outreach on vaccine to minors. how important is it for teenagers in particular to get vaccinated before school opens up in the fall.

>> let's think about this. during the lockdown lots of parents did not take their children into be vaccinated. infants, children, and adolescence, against all kinds of routine vaccinations, let alone covid, and now before school is all the more important that we can once again raise up the rates of vaccinations of the routine vaccines, and now children age 12 and older can get vaccinated against covid. this is very important once school starts. the last thing we want our outbreaks of the old diseases, those mad old diseases that we have eliminated and of course we want to make schools absolutely as safe as possible regarding covid. schools can be safe, all the adults associated with schools not just teachers but school bus

drivers and custodians and coaches, everyone. they should by now have been vaccinated and if we can vaccinate all the kids 12 and older that would make those schools even safer. >> obviously hospitalization rates for covid due to the delta strain increasing across the country, what have so far been proven as the successful therapeutics as successful treatments for covid. what have we learned? dr. schaffner: we have learned on a norma's amount about how to treat people that come into the hospital with severe covid. in the beginning when covid first hit we opened up our textbooks and there were blank pages. people all across the country, our own intensive care doctors have made major contributions, we know much better about supportive care, we know how the virus hurts the body and at what stages, we have a couple of

drugs now that really do work, remdesivir and dextro method zone -- a steroid we been using for years. if you use them at the right time in the right doses we can have people get through hospitalizations and leave even intensive care units and come back to a useful life. we are very excited about that. let me just say, think about it. all the hospitalizations currently occurring in the country, and i do mean over 98% of them are in unvaccinated people. these are unnecessary hospitalizations that could have been prevented if people had been vaccinated. host: i just heard recently this term from a friend i know who has this long haul covid. i had not heard of it before. what is that and how is that

being treated? how long do doctors like yourself and others think this long haul covid could exist or last? host: this is something we are learning more and more about, this is a nasty virus. not only can it make you acutely ill but as you recover even after a mild infection there are some patients who develop symptoms that can last for weeks and months. they feel fatigued, they don't have the same energy. they talk about a brain fog, so they are not thinking as quickly. they can have muscular and joint aches and pains, a loss of taste and smell which you have heard about and persist for weeks. this collection of symptoms that can go on for quite a long time is called long covid. it is so common that medical

centers including my own have established a long covid clinic so we can better learn how to care for these patients and make them feel and function better and try to figure out what it is about this virus that produces these symptoms. host: our guest dr. william schaffner. you are welcome to call (202) 748-8000 for those of you who are vaccinated. the unvaccinated line (202) 748-8001. this is a headline in politico, poll shows growing worries about the delta variant, americans growing increasingly concerned about the delta variant of the coronavirus and are split along party lines on president biden's handling of the new strain. a survey published over the weekend found 62% of americans say they are concerned about the delta variant, but the dominant strain in the u.s. including 48% of the people said they are not

vaccinated or fully vaccinated. the former fda commissioner was on cbs's face the nation yesterday and was asked about the delta variant and his concern about it. >> the cdc director said this week that there is an epidemic of the unvaccinated. what is your reaction to that? >> when you look at the people hospitalized 98% of the hospitalizations are people who are unvaccinated. the bottom line is that many people are no longer susceptible to covid, about 50% of the population has been fully vaccinated, another third of the american population has been previously infected with the virus. many are not susceptible to the virus. a lot of people are still susceptible to the virus. this variant is so contagious it will affect the majority -- it

will in fact the majority. many will have been previously infected or will get the delta variant. for most people who get the delta variant it will be the most serious virus they get in their lifetime in terms of risks of getting them into the hospital. host: dr. gottlieb saying the most serious virus they will get in their lifetime. dr. schaffner: that's pretty straightforward, isn't it? i think dr. gottlieb is right on the mark. it is clear that this virus is obviously spreading among people who are unvaccinated. people who are previously vaccinated have good protection against serious disease, and it can make people who are unvaccinated if they acquire the infection seriously ill. i know they are younger and they were told that people who are younger are less apt to get seriously ill, that is still correct. you have to hold two thoughts in your mind at the same time.

although you have less chance it's not zero. if you do get infected even though you are otherwise perfectly healthy you can be put in the hospital seriously ill from this virus. this virus is not going to disappear or just vanish. dr. gottlieb thinks if you are unvaccinated it's only a matter of time before you become infected. that is how contagious this delta variant is. host: what do you think the behavior should be in terms of the people who are vaccinated. should people who are vaccinated still continue to wear masks? or should that be a personal choice? dr. schaffner: it's a personal choice, there are people like myself who use the belt and suspenders approach.

my wife and i are both vaccinated, but when i go to the supermarket i wear a mask. i'm in the older age group that is more likely if i do get infected to become seriously ill. and that also goes to people who are immune compromised. these are people who are for reasons of illness or treatment they are receiving, even if they are vaccinated the vaccine can't work as well in that group, so that group i certainly recommend that they continue to be cautious and wear the mask and observed social distancing and certainly when you are indoors in a large group circumstance, where the mask on those occasions. host: i want to make sure people know the correct lines. the lines for your unvaccinated (202) 748-8000, if you are fully vaccinated the line is (202) 748-8001.

we will hear from lori first up in hamburg, pennsylvania. good morning. caller: hi, my name is lori and i am vaccinated and i can -- i couldn't be happier. i'm going to see my daughter in oregon, portland. i waited two years i've had airline tickets. i think private businesses should be able to decide what they want for their employees and their customers or how they want, i think a lot of people will find that there are a lot of people that can be more comfortable going to work. i was talking to a man the other day who had a mask on and told me he wasn't vaccinated. he had all his shots before he went to school when he was later

little -- when he was little. there was no explaining to him that different things happen and throughout history we have had different pandemics and different viruses that have circulated. usually it depends on how people reacted as a whole as to how well the survival rate works. going back thousands of years. the workforce right now i think a lot of people have the long-term issues, migraines, seizures, hypertension, they are worn out. that is why they don't have workers. they keep on suffering and they don't understand it. ok, lori. -- host: ok, lori. caller: thank you for your comments and support of vaccination and keep trying to get your friends and neighbors who are not vaccinated to come in and receive the vaccine. it's important for them and everyone else around you. one of the things you mentioned

in passing has to do with employers asking their workforce to be vaccinated. that is happening slowly. in my own medical center all the leadership here is under an obligation to be vaccinated and we have a couple more weeks to get that done. that's in preparation for extending that obligation to be vaccinated for everyone who works here in the medical center. leadership first then the rank-and-file. i think we are going to do that because it's a patient safety issue. we don't want our infection to infect our patients. we do that with influenza vaccine already and i think you will see once the food and drug administration approves fully this vaccine that's a matter of time. there will be other groups who do the same thing.

host: our previous caller had mentioned childhood vaccines. i recall before the first -- before the birth of my first grandchild my doctor recommended getting i think it is called a tdap booster, getting a re-up before that baby was born. >> that's absolutely right. that has to do with the hazard of transmitting the bacteria that causes whooping cough to a newborn infant. infants are the most fragile and the most susceptible to severe whooping cough before they themselves can get the baby shots that will protect them. anyone that has contact with a newborn baby should have had your tdap, tetanus, diphtheria, a cellular pertussis, you should get that vaccine before you see the newborn baby. there are vaccines that are appropriate for adults. vaccines are not just for kids.

host: let's go to amy in georgia. go ahead. caller: good morning. first i would like to thank dr. schaffner for speaking so thoughtfully and clearly about this virus. i am unvaccinated. not on purpose. i had a reaction to my first pfizer shot, so i was unable to get the second shot. i would like to know -- i wear my mask and social distance -- i would like to know what you -- when you think it would be available for someone in my situation in the future, will we be able to mix vaccines or will they find out something different for someone like me? i would love to hear what you have to say about this. dr. schaffner: that's a very important question. the first thing i would say is, consult with your physician or

maybe -- dr. schaffner: it is for all the rest of us to be vaccinated. we can surround you with a cocoon of protection that will make it very hard for the virus to find you. we all have a responsibility to ourselves, but i am very clear, we also have a responsibility to our brothers and sisters among us who cannot respond optimally to the vaccine. that responsibility means we should be vaccinated to protect you and others like you.

host: chris is on our line for the vaccinated from michigan. chris, you are not there. i have the right line. chris, go ahead. caller: hello, doctor. why do you think the administration would be allowing all of these unvaccinated covid positive illegals to be spread around the country and why do you think the democrat lawmakers that took the planes to d.c. caught the virus. is it true that the vaccinated in england are becoming ill with this virus? thank you. dr. schaffner: thanks, chris. first of all i would like to back away from the political formulation, this virus doesn't care who you voted for. it's happy to infect anybody.

i like to approach it from a public health point of view. let's give a little subtle. if you are vaccinated you are protected against severe disease, that is what the vaccines were designed to do. if you have illness not only are we protected against severe disease by these vaccines, but they make it much less likely that we can get infected and transmit the virus to others. it doesn't go to zero. what we are learning now is that there are clearly people out there, this was not expected, who are vaccinated who are exposed to the virus, they have no or little symptoms and they can transmit it to others. let's make a distinction between getting infected and getting severe disease. talking a lot about people who

have been vaccinated who are still able to transmit the virus. clearly we are seeing that here also. the answer to all of this is if everyone were vaccinated the transmission of this virus would really be reduced, it would not disappear. it would be very reduced and we would all essentially be protected against severe disease . the only people -- dr. gottlieb mentioned this -- the only people being hospitalized today with severe disease are our friends who are unvaccinated. this is a huge emphasis on the importance of the vaccine, keeping vaccinated people out of the hospital and it's also a great sadness, these hospitalizations could have essentially been almost completely prevented and those

folks been vaccinated. i don't want everyone to be vaccinated, nobody wants to come to our hospital, it's not a resort hotel. >> the caller mentioned the virus in the u.k., the headline here from the daily beast about the british prime minister, boris johnson who had a serious case of covid, agreeing to quarantine after a covid-19 exposure when he learned from it -- of it from the app the u.k. is using to communicate. one of his ministers who was covid positive and the prime minister is going into quarantine. a question from you all -- for you all from michael in portland. "i read the delta variant may be at the outer limit of infectiousness, i.e. that mother nature has given us its most infectious variant it will ever see. if so, if we weather this fourth wave is the worst over? dr. schaffner: covid is teaching

us stuff every single day. here are my crossed fingers. i hope we don't see anymore contagious, more infectious variance than the current delta strains, but i'm going to hold my dollar. i'm not going to bet on that. we have to keep surveillance going and we are doing that. we are sequencing many of these viruses that are occurring to determine whether new variance crop up and what their characteristics are and then you will have to respond to that. hold on to that thought. i certainly hope you are right. host: on the vaccinated line, bayville, new york this is jeff. caller: thank you, bill, and thank you dr. schaffner. i have a point to make, really to expound on what you've been saying and other health care

experts. you point out very correctly that we have a solution to preventing the unvaccinated from succumbing to covid. absolutely correct. by way of analogy we also have a method and way of preventing the next outbreak from being so catastrophic and the data shows that as well. if we look at for example some south asian pacific countries that prepared and actually fared very well compared to the united states such as for example south korea and taiwan we see that south korea has a total of about 2000 or more deaths to date from covid. we have 600,000, and we want the temp -- we were the template south korea used to formulate their public health infrastructure to protect them

after the sars and mers pandemic. my point is that we know how to prevent this. the problem is that we don't resource it the way south koreans or taiwanese and other countries have. the take away is, we need to seed the necessary authority to resource our public health community, our health departments, all the necessary supply chains, contingency plans, to something outside of the budget process which has politicized it and prevented it from being resourced. that is the federal reserve-type paradigm. not the federal reserve itself but a similar situation where the federal reserve funds the program outside of the congressional process. it will fund all the things we know from evidence that prevent

the next catastrophe. inc. you very much. host: thank you, sir. dr. schaffner: jeff is onto something and we certainly appreciate his bringing up the point that if you are going to have a response to the pandemics you need at firm coherent public health infrastructure -- to wayne over period of time. we need a coherent public health , strong, professional infrastructure in place. that is something we need to think about going forward. we have to remind ourselves, we americans have a short memory, and there will be a pandemic that will come in the future. i can't tell you when, i can't tell you which virus, and i can't tell you where it will

start, you will need another good public health infrastructure, it just needs to be -- there are a bunch of good ideas. host: the next color is from montreal, canada on the unvaccinated line. caller: there are many reputable doctors in the united states and india -- and india that saying they are having tremendous success treating them with this drug. the india bar association is suing the nih and who for lying to their country about this drug. how many americans have choked to death on ventilators because they were denied life-saving medication? i thought there was something called the right to try in the u.s. and i'd like to know if the doctor believes that doctors that are talking about this

should be censored on the internet. thank you, very much. dr. schaffner: richard, thank you for your comments. you bring up a point about a drug that has been investigated and continues to be investigated in two circumstances. one, to prevent covid illness in the first place, and two, once covid illness occurs to actually treated. the data on both of those issues is rather mixed. i would say that the data are substantially in the, it doesn't look like it is -- as if it has a major role at the present time. we have had any number of studies to show that it does not play as large a role as was initially hoped. investigations are continuing. >> the delta variant not only

having an effect on americans health, also on their stock portfolio. from the wall street journal, but doubt drops as investors go into bonds, oil, u.s. stocks, and government bonds slid among anxiety with the spread of the delta coronavirus variant. surging cases of the coronavirus in many parts of the world including highly vaccinated countries like the u.k. have prompted investors to dial down their expectations of economic wrote the coming months. some are concerned a steep rise in prices will pinch consumption and prompt central banks to withdraw stimulus. on the markets this morning with this delta variant a question for you about the vaccines themselves on twitter. the vaccine has been emergency use authorization, she asks, why is this vaccine not being approved, what is holding us up? dr. schaffner: there are many of

us who wonder about that a little bit. just to make it clear to all the viewers and listeners, it's a two-stage process. the food and drug administration has the opportunity to issue an emergency use authorization when the vaccine and other therapeutics come along in the face of a calamity and of course we had that, 1000 people were dying back then in the united states on a daily basis. companies keep providing information to the food and drug administration to fulfill all of the requirements for complete licensure. this has been an ongoing process. the companies have to produce that much information. at the present time we have vaccinated 186 plus million people in the united states alone. that is more information than the food and drug administration has had for any other vaccine in

the whole history of the fda. we all think fda complete licensure is a foregone conclusion, it is happening. i do wish that it would happen more rapidly, some of us are puzzle is taken quite so long. we would love them to be careful but we are still a little puzzled why it is taking so long. many people say they would be pleased to receive the vaccine once it were fully licensed. i kind of wonder whether they have some other reasons, because i don't think if the license came through tomorrow, the day after tomorrow we would see long lines of people ready to get vaccinated. nonetheless it would put the period at the end of the sentence and it certainly would remove that concern.

i urge my friends at the food and drug administration, let's get on with it. host: here is mark from new york, vaccinated, go ahead. mark in new york, you are on the air. one more chance here. we will go onto anton from florida. caller: dr., you seem like a nice man. i'm really frightened, i'm 78 years old and have not been sick a day in my life. not a single day. i still work, i still work. if they force me to take the vaccine i am scared to death that i will die in a week. what do you think? dr. schaffner: first of all, congratulations on your 78 years and your vigor such that you

keep working and state of good health. you express a concern which in one way or another many people still have, a hesitancy, because you are concerned about the safety of this vaccine. not about its effectiveness, i think you think it works. the question is about safety, could you have an adverse event? what we know about these vaccines is they will make your arm sore, and many people feel fatigued for a day or two afterwards. some actually get some aches and pains, but that goes away within 24 to 48 hours. there are a few serious adverse events associated with these vaccines. i'm happy to discuss them but they are rare. a few cases for every million doses administered. you are at risk, just because you are 78 years old, of the

serious complications of covid. when you balance the risks and the benefits i think the benefits of getting vaccinated strongly outweighs the risks. if you have doubts, please talk to your doctor. host: dr. william schaffner a infectious disease professor at vanderbilt, with us to talk to you on vaccines about the delta variant. (202) 748-8000 if you are unvaccinated. if you are vaccinated the line is (202) 748-8001. this is the headline from the washington post this morning, biden surgeon general backs localized mask mandates as delta variance drive arise in covid cases. vivek murthy was on the state of the union talking about the delta variant and breakthrough cases of the virus. here is some of that. >> we are hearing about

vaccinated individuals experiencing breakthrough infections. some examples, the yankees red sox game was canceled because six vaccinated players caught the virus, six texas democrats who met with top officials in d.c. also infected. i understand the vaccine prevents serious disease and death, but of what is your recommendation for the 100 60 million vaccinated americans area should we live our lives differently than we normally would? >> the good news is not only is the vaccine highly effective at preventing severe infection and hospitalization, but even if you do have a breakthrough infection , which happens to a small minority of people it is likely to be a milder, asymptomatic infection given that the vaccines don't just prevent infection but reduce the severity of breakthrough infections. my hope is people will feel reassured by that. i'm fully vaccinated and i feel reassured by that data.

it makes me feel comfortable going out and resuming other activities that i missed. if you are in a community where there is a lot of virus spreading some people may choose to be more cautious in terms of how they use masks or in terms of their engagements and that is ok to do. getting back to quote unquote normal and what life was life pre-pandemic is going to be a process. we will not all move at the same pace in terms of our comfort with going back to the way things were it whether it is changing mask practices or tree engaging in group settings. it will take time. what we have to do is make sure science is guiding our process. host: dr. william schaffner, if you are vaccinated and get a case of the sniffles or are not feeling well how important is it to get a covid test after? dr. schaffner: that's very important. particularly as we enter influenza season that is coming

up pretty quickly. we will have flu and other respiratory viruses and we will want to sort out which is covid, which is the flu, which is respiratory etc. etc.. we will be doing more testing. even if we are vaccinated and we develop symptoms, call your health care provider. don't go into the office, you might be spreading something. call them or email them and get advice about whether they would like you to be tested. i hope we will be using testing more frequently this fall. by the way, isn't it wonderful we have a surgeon general like him? he is so clear, deliberate, careful, science-based. we are fortunate to have him. host: as we approach flu season, explain the difference between the seasonal flu and covid. >> they are both respiratory viruses.

the flu and covid are spread in entirely similar ways. the delta variant is even more contagious than the flu. both viruses can make people very seriously ill, so we take them both very seriously and remember once september rolls around and we are into october it is time to get your vaccine against influenza as well as covid. we need to protect ourselves against both because there is no overlap. you have to get independent protection against both of those viruses. the recommendations for getting a flu vaccine could not be simpler. if you are older than six months of age in the united states you should get a flu vaccine each and every year. host: here is pat from pennsylvania, good morning. dr. schaffner: --

caller: good morning, thank you. i am fully vaccinated and immunocompromised. my son last year traveled to thailand through hong kong and we believe he definitely caught the virus. he was very ill for three weeks. he doesn't feel he needs to get the vaccine. my question is, to people who -- do people who have had it need to get the vaccine? should i get an antibody test? i have heard about serious damage to long-haulers, and i want to understand, how can the lungs be so severely damaged by this as opposed to pneumonia? i would appreciate your answer, thank you again. dr. schaffner: two things. the first is, even if you have

recovered from covid the recommendation is that you nonetheless still get vaccinated , and that is because the vaccine provides a greater amount of antibodies and you get better, more durable long term protection from the vaccine we think then from the natural infection. as you can imagine severe covid involves the lungs. you can get severe inflammation in the lungs. it's a form of pneumonia. this is a form of pneumonia that when it resolves, when the body fights it off it's a little like -- you can be left with a scar, some scarring in your lungs which results in long-hauler kind of symptoms. you may not have the same capacity that you did before you became sick.

this is a nasty virus, not only because it makes you acutely sick, but it can have long-term implications for your health. host: here are the numbers on vaccinations across the country, the latest from the cdc. 161 million americans -- 66% have had at least one dose and 48.6% of the adult population with at least one dose. the population of greater than 12 years old. let's hear from betty in albany, louisiana. betty, go ahead. caller: good morning, thank you for taking my call. i'm in the vaccinated group because i'm in my 70's. the risk to me was great. i assessed it and i took the

vaccine. the problem is my grandchild. he is only like 13. they are telling us that even young children should get the vaccine. it seems that children are not likely to get very ill from it. the risk assessment appears to be that they are less likely to get severely ill unless they are immune compromised. why are they pushing this vaccine on children, even young children? i have read that there have been more than 5000 deaths due to the vaccine and it is causing heart problems in young people. if they are less likely to get it severely wide make them take a greater risk of being harmed by the vaccine? host: we will get a response. dr. schaffner: your question is very important. i will explain this but the first thing i have to tell you

is 5000 children have not been killed by the vaccine. that is malarkey, that is not correct. you are right, children are less likely to be infected with this virus and get seriously ill, but less likely does not mean zero. have been 300 plus children who have died of covid in the united states so far, over 13,000 hospitalizations and covid is now one of the 10 leading causes of death among children here in the united states. my two grandchildren, one is in child -- one is in college and one was about to go to college. they were first in line of their own volition to get this vaccine and i certainly recommend it to everyone else.

host: you been quoted in articles before including c-span health including on vaccinated people, variant factors. explain what you mean by that. dr. schaffner: it was a bit of a vivid notion. the virus has multiplied in people and can only spread in unvaccinated people at the present time. when it spread it vault -- it multiplies millions of times. variants are created through mutations. every once in a while you get one or a series of rotations that can create a new variant. whether you live here in the united states or someplace else in the world, if you get infected the virus can multiply and potentially create a new variant that can spread.

that is what happened with the delta. it was a one person, the variant was created. there was a potential for an unvaccinated person who it gets infected of the virus could be the source of a new variant that threatens the country and the world. host: you were commissioned in the public health service as an epidemic intelligence service officer with the cdc. is that the kind of position where you look into the source of viruses and variants like this? dr. schaffner: the epidemic intelligence service is a training program within the cdc. we are called the disease detectives and those disease detectives investigate all kinds of outbreaks of infectious and increasingly noninfectious diseases with the intention of

curtailing the problem, and they will be sure to create circumstances so they won't happen again to make the population here in the united states and around the world as safe as possible so that people can stay as healthy as possible. it is an elite corps of public health investigators and it was a remarkable experience, a great privilege to be part of the epidemic intelligence service. it has influenced my teaching and my entire practice as i have worked in public health to teach and do research in an academic environment. christ we will hear from chesapeake, virginia on the unvaccinated line. caller: we will hear -- i have a question about guillain-barre syndrome. if a person who is not

vaccinated -- should a person who is not vaccinated get the vaccine? we have not been able to get a direct answer from anyone. just give us literature to read. host: glad you asked the question. go ahead. dr. schaffner: it's an interesting question. let me tell you that there are two kinds of vaccines out there. there is the pfizer and the moderna vaccine. they are made in a similar way and then there is the johnson & johnson jansen vaccine, that is the one and done vaccine that is so attractive. that vaccine has been associated with the johnson & johnson vaccine with a very low risk of following guillain-barre syndrome. the risk is about eight cases for every million doses of the vaccine that are used, so there

is an increased risk of guyon barre syndrome. if that concerns you please get them a dharna the pfizer vaccine. but you should be vaccinated. host: to jonathan in texas. good morning. caller: yes. right now if i wanted to go to canada on a vacation they wouldn't let me in because of the covid restrictions and everything. i am only a 1 hour drive from the rio grande, and we are letting thousands and thousands of so-called migrants in, mostly untested. my question is is there any relationship between the spread of this delta virus and letting thousands of people in untested. i will hang up and let you answer. dr. schaffner: sure, that is also a commonly asked question,

and i guess behind that there is a notion that we should perhaps in some way create barriers to keep people out of this country, because of the risk of importing covid. covid is being transmitted very rapidly in the united states already. the analogy that i have used is by trying to keep people -- that's a little like telling somebody not to pour a bucket of water into a swimming pool. we have so much covid here i think restricting travel in the interest of trying to keep covid out is a small issue. there are some countries who are trying to restrict travel from the united states because we have more covid than they do. at this juncture the answer is, let's all get vaccinated.

host: the latest in terms of covid spread across the country, cases have arisen in every state across the country. the u.s., a 14 day change according to the new york times 140%, the top five or bottom five states in terms of the number of increases, arkansas, missouri, florida, louisiana, and nevada. we will go to brandenburg, kentucky and hear from brenda. good morning. caller: good morning. i am unvaccinated and i am more likely to want to take the johnson & johnson vaccine. from what i've seen on tv it's not as effective as the moderna or pfizer. my question is if i take the johnson & johnson mi more likely to spread the virus to other people? dr. schaffner: also a wonderful question. the johnson & johnson vaccine in terms of preventing serious disease is about comparable to

johnson & johnson, about comparable to pfizer and moderna. they are all in the same ballpark. there are nuanced differences between them. in terms of preventing infection completely, none of the three vaccines does that completely, but it does reduce your risk. if you are interested in the johnson & johnson vaccine one of the things we want to let you know is if you are under 50 years of age talk to your doctor about that. there is a small risk of developing this a rare clotting disorder that has been associated with the j&j vaccine. host: one more call from birch down, tennessee we hear from daniel. hi there, daniel. caller: hello. dr. schaffner, i wanted to thank you for what you have done in

the last year or so. you could walk away from your job today and hold your head up high for saving thousands and millions of lives, unlike somebody previously in the white house. i will stay away from politics. i do know about vanderbilt, university and i had a water ski accident several years ago, a punctured lung and broken ribs and i was transported to vanderbilt from the east side of tennessee and you saved my life. i know how good vanderbilt hospital is. i wanted to touch on denial is him and brainwashing. nashville television stations constantly tout their vaccination rate of four or five counties in the municipal areas of 40% to 50%. they rarely, i rarely see a

discussion on the other counties that are 20% to 30%. it's a form of denial is him, a form of brainwashing. they just do not want to cover this situation. i think, general russel honorary when he was in the middle of the second wave up in new york, he had to tell people jesus is not coming. science will have to take care of this. host: we will get a final thought from dr. schaffner. x there is not any doubt that as you move from cities out into rural areas vaccination is less accepted in the rural areas and that is true over much of the united states. i would like to emphasize that science is something that comes

from what we as humans do and many of us believe that is influenced -- there is the old saying that the lord helps those who help themselves and science is a way of helping each other and something you can do for yourself in a responsible way but also by getting vaccinated you protect your family, your neighborhood, and your entire community and i would urge people who are concerned about vaccinations, if you have not been vaccinated yet speak to your health care provider and they will provide you with advice. >> he is an infectious disease professor at vanderbilt university medical center. he is dr. william schaffner. glad to have you back on the program again. that will wrap it up for this morning's edition of washington journal. we are back tomorrow morning at

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