high but it will come down and that is something we will have to see how that plays out. i can't tell you that i know exactly. i do know we can't keep the easy money policies we have in place now once the pandemic fades. i think the fed would actually agree with that. where you draw the line is some people think it's already gone too far and others say it should continue. you can't keep borrowing indefinitely and shoveling money into the economy indefinitely forever without it causing some harm to the nation's -- to the dollar, the value of the dollar and the inflation to the economy. anyway, -- host: concordcoalition.org

robert bixby s ♪ washington journal continues. host: joining us is greg brown from the national apartment association. thank you for joining us this morning. guest: good to be here. host: who do you represent? guest: the national apartment association is a federation of apartment associations around the country. we represent property owners and managers of all shapes and sizes, from the smallest with a single unit under management up to the largest firms in the business. we represent every different segment of rental housing. all different kinds, all different shapes and sizes. host: we have talking about the eviction moratorium, the previous one put in by the biden administration. the current one put in place by the biden administration. through the cdc.

what do they do for those you represent? guest: we oppose eviction moratoriums as a tool to deal with this housing crisis from covid. what we have seen over the last 15 months is what we fear most. rental debt keeps piling up, both for residents and for owners. it's important to understand a little about the industry. half of our industry are mom-and-pop's. about 22 million units are represented by those types of owners. they operate on a very thin margin. only $.10 of every dollar actually goes to the owner of a property. everything else goes to someone else, the mortgage, the taxes, the salaries, those types of things. when you go for months without getting rent, it places your whole financial solvency at risk. a lot of owners have been in that very situation. they are hanging on by their fingernails. it is bad for their business, bad for housing affordability

long-term, and bad for residents. they have a pile that they have to eventually pay off and it will be due. we believe those policies are bad for everyone all around. host: as far as a landlord is confirmed -- concerned, what can they do under the moratoriums if a person is behind on the rent? guest: what they have been doing is working with their residents, communicating with residents, talking to them about the situation and figure out a way to help them through the pandemic. from the beginning our members have been helping people with payment plans, protecting them with socials -- connecting them with social service organizations. some have created programs to help people bridge between the start of the pandemic, they could get employed again. our members are doing everything they can with their residents to carry them through this so we can come out on the other side at some point. host: as far as actual

evictions, they cannot take place under what is the current administration? guest: you cannot physically remove someone, that's correct. they have to file ac/dc form that declares -- a cdc form that declares they are affected by covid. host: when it comes to coming into the qualifications, can anyone get it or do they have to meet specific qualifications? guest: you have to be impacted by covid, and there are some income limits. if you make up to $99,000 as an individual, you are covered by the order. host: we have heard from the administration. it was to give the government more time to get money to the states to turn to the tenants themselves. what is the difficulty as far as getting the money out to the states?

guest: the money has gotten to the states. the first 25 billion dollars approved last december was distributed to grantees quickly, within 45 days of the passage of the bill. that challenge has not been the government getting the money to the grantees, is the money getting to the residents and property owner. you have an inconsistent experience. in virginia, colorado, good programs, solid processes working with landlords and residents. the money has been flowing fairly good. utah is another good example. unfortunately they are the minority. most are struggling to get the money out. there are a lot of different reasons. some of the pay or bureaucratic requirements the program has in place can take time to filter through for residents and owners. some of these grantees have never operated a rental assistance program before. it has been a struggle to get it operational.

other places are bit of self infliction. michigan and new york the legislatures got involved. in new york, they only started out giving money out in the last 30 days. it has been a struggle. we are less than $4 billion allocated out of the total $47 billion provided by congress and the president. we are struggling. our job is to help grantees help the admin's ration find the spots to improve the process and that is what we have been trying to do. host: treasury offers information on the money coming out. about 12% of that emergency rental assistance distributed after six months. that is some of the information. greg brown joining us for this conversation. you can call and make your comments known for the renters out there -- make your comments known. renters, (202) 748-8000.

landlords, (202) 748-8001. all others, (202) 748-8002. you can also send us a text at (202) 748-8003. your organization has filed a suit against the biden administration. can you discuss that? guest: sure. you do the math about how much a unpaid rents is out there versus what the government provided, the suit is to make sure landlords and residents are made whole. there are about 26 billy dollars and uncovered rent debt that is outstanding. -- $28 billion in uncovered rent debt that is outstanding. subtracting with the government allocated, you're left with a proximally $26.6 billion. --

approximately $26.6 billion. we cannot let the debt go by. those folks have got to be made whole. residents have got to be made whole. the feature of affordability is at stake here if those folks do not come out on the other side financially solvent. the other matter is we don't think the cdc had the right to take this action. that is part of our lawsuit as well, challenging go right to take this action. host: what exactly are you seeking? guest: we are seeking that landlords that have not been able to recover can be made whole at this process. how a provided with some information about their losses. you cannot double dip. you cannot take a loss on somewhere where you are taking rental assistance. certain states are not eligible to be part of the lawsuit because they have evicted moratoriums that were stricter than the federal moratorium. the process works its way through. if a judge agrees -- i'm not an

attorney -- if a judge agrees with us, no individual landlords would receive compensation from the federal government for the losses. host: one of the people talking about the moratorium was representative cori bush. one thing she talked about is what it could be facing in the course. we will play what she has to say and then get your response to it. [video] >> your efforts resulted in a 60-date of eviction freezer people living in areas with higher substantial covid transmission, which basically covers almost the whole country now. even president biden said he is not sure whether this move is constitutional. it's facing legal challenges. if the courts strike it down, what is the next move? >> that is why i rushed back to st. louis to make sure that -- we have been saying it nationally. we have to do the work now to get this money out.

we have to do the work to make sure our states and local governments are able to release this money, get this money into the hands of the people who need it the most. we are telling tenants and landlords to go online porsche up at the country and apply for this money. and for the local governments and states, please get this money out. in 60 days -- 60 days, we may not have. we are pushing hard to make sure people apply. we keep hearing, especially locally, people are not applying. there have been barriers to people applying in those resources able to be moved. we are working out the kinks right now. host: mr. brown, how do you respond? guest: we agree with what she says. is the single most important thing you can do, to get this money into the hands of those

folks that need it. i agree with the congresswoman. there are barriers to people applying. it can be intimidating for residents and small landlords. you are asking for a lot of documentation that is difficult to obtain or just makes people nervous to provide some of these things if you are a resident. you are facing all this process and its intimidating. they need to get into the community and educate people about the programs, make them comfortable and get them to apply. the grantees have to make sure the money can actually flow. some of the requirements as far as documentation of someone's eligibility, income, covid impact, this contributes to slowing down the process. the treasury department ought to be exploring ways to streamline that even further so the funds can flow more quickly. host: there was a hearing

earlier on july 27. represented jim clyburn. he says the failure of some large landlord companies to comply with the eviction moratorium is grading significant hardship for tenants affected by the coronavirus crisis and could contribute to the housing crisis as the nation recovers from the pandemic and its economic fallout. guest: we provide guidance to our members into the industry about how to comply with the cdc order. every housing provider ought to be complying. there is a new wrinkle with this new 60-day extension. it is connected to community transmission of covid-19. there is a new element you have to be checking with the cdc portal to see where your local community is and those kind of things. until courts decide those of the rules so we our members to follow those.

in terms of participating in rental assistance programs, i have to say the point of the emergency rental program was to move money from here to there. that is residents and housing providers to get them past this. some grantees decided it's an opportunity to add other things that become disincentives for landlords to participate. taking away some of their future rights to manage their properties, providing less than 100% of compensation for rent that has not been paid, and the bureaucratic process itself. we have encouraged our members to participate in this program. we also hear back, i want to do that but i'm being asked to accept things that have nothing to do with emergency rental assistance. the process is not very friendly. i understand hesitation among housing providers and landlords participating. we continue to encourage them to do their best to get into the

process. there are two sides to this equation. the landlord needs to participate and so does the resident. we are hearing story after story of residents that start the process but don't complete the process or they will not communicate at all. this is a real challenge. there are many residents that have stopped communicating with her housing providers altogether. since the rules are they have to participate, no rental assistance can flow to that unit or individual without their participation. landlords are left to do without a lot of options. host: this is darrell in greenville, north carolina, on the line for others with greg brown from the national apartment association. caller: what i don't understand is a lot of these employers right now are struggling to get employees back to work. they will not give back to work with the federal subsidy unemployment and stay on

appointment. they are making more money sitting at home on their butt. if they're making more money not working, why should they be paying rent to begin with? guest: i would say the point about the number of jobs out there and available, that's a cause for positive feelings for us. it means the economy is coming back. we are hoping that will help folks get back on track with paying the rent. in the interim there is clearly a gap where people have been unable to pay. some of this is going back nine months, 12 months. consider that. we have tens of billions of dollars out there. the programs can bring people current. people having more opportunities can take care of us going forward. host: tom from connecticut, good

morning. caller: good morning. in connecticut, the application -- my landlord will not cooperate with me. i have written letters. i've disabled, 77, i've had covid. in connecticut, the application is basically by telephone. i am working with an entity called access agency. it is a nonprofit, or a not-for-profit agency. there is no paper backup. it is very, very frustrating because i want to pay my back rent. additionally, in february when i got covid and i got my shots

shortly after that, i kept getting notice from the landlord. i saved all the paperwork. in connecticut, they don't accept paper applications. host: ok, tom. we will let our guests respond toguest: that is an interesting situation. in terms of the process itself, this is one of the things we have been you have that flexibility here for application. not everybody has the same access to resources in terms of computers or whatever it might be to do? -only processing. -- to do digital-only processing. i'm hoping that is just a bad communication to the community in terms of how you apply. i can't speak to how the housing provider is not communicating with you.

there could be any number of reasons for that. we are encouraging our members and providers to communicate with residents, grantees, and do the best they can with the programs as they are, understanding there are challenges that make it difficult for owners to engage in the process. host: let's say in a perfect world that all of the applications are filed and everybody participates. what is the turnaround time before a renter gets money and how much of that is provided? guest: it varies. it varies widely. in some places -- i heard an anecdote yesterday where a grantee set up a system or a resident arrives at a courthouse, the grantee would have a representative. they would process the application with the housing provider on the spot and that housing provider would be paid within 14 days.

the provider told me that was happening. 14 days, payment was received. other places it can take weeks or months, because of young's like trying to verify someone's income. one of the fears i believe is out there among grantees is that they're going to put money somewhere they should not have and be audited. there is a lot of fear. because of that, there is a lot of oversight being built in and that drags the process out. it varies widely. some grantees, like utah or virginia, they are already paying forward for rent in the future. it varies. host: what guarantees that the money provided by the government makes it to the homeowner/provider? guest: i don't know about guarantees. there is supposed to be a process set up where we contract. as a housing provider i say resident a has this much in

outstanding arrears, then i submit that to the grantee during the tenant does their part, and there is a record that i have arrears debt for that resident that i can show to the grantee. the process should be set up, and amongst the most sophisticated grantees i think this is happening. you contract that and there is a clear record of everything having been done. it's not going to work that way everywhere, unfortunately. that is the objective. host: this is frank. frank is from pennsylvania. ahead, please. -- go ahead, please. caller: good morning. host: you are on, go ahead. caller: me and my girlfriend, she owns a trailer. we rent the lot. i don't have issues at the moment, with everything going on i don't want to be stuck, you know?

host: ok. guest: go ahead. host: he is done. guest: i think i would say any renter or resident that is having any kind of challenge but is struggling to find the solution to that, there is a portal -- excuse me, the consumer financial protection bureau website, for all assistance programs across the country. if you are thinking, where do i go for help? it is real simple. it is on the homepage for the cfpb. you can put in your zip code and it will pull up the local grantee for rental assistance. i encourage anybody during what to do to start their and you can get the information you need. host: some qualifications set up by the cdc. that person that needs help may have to make the best effort to obtain all government assistance or available assistance. earning no more than $99,000

during the 2021 calendar year. unable to pay due to loss, layoff, or extreme medical expenses. eviction would likely render the individual homeless. another one is, to reside in the u.s. county experiencing substantial or high rates of just an additional wrinkle that was added and it comes down to a declaration that was added by a resident that set all of the criteria. i will point out one thing in terms of the requirement on the income side, just as a note.

the income eligibility requirements with rental assistance program is capped at 80%. you do not qualify if you make more than 80% of the local median income. there is a pretty significant gap between that number and the income guideline of nine $9,000 per individual and 198 if you file jointly. in some communities, people are covered by the cdc order but not eligible for rental assistance. that can be a challenge because then as a provider, i am left without where do i go or where do i encourage my residents to go to get their emergency rental assistance. i want to point that out. host: our guest is greg brown who serves as the national apartment association senior vice president. this is denise from albany. hello. caller: hello. why is it -- i out many my land

load. before -- i owed money for my landlord and before i wanted to get a new apartment, and the landlord wanted to sell the building. i was looking for the apartment and they asked for a credit check and your credit has to be good. this is ridiculous. everywhere you go that is how it is, and i do not understand, where am i supposed to go to? am i supposed to be living in the streets? i do not know what to do. guest: that is a very difficult situation. i understand what you're saying. the options can be difficult in that scenario where having a provider is selling a building, which happens very often. and during the covid crisis, small size donors are leaving the business because they cannot

afford to be in the business anymore. the covid crisis for them has been particularly bad as well so they have had to sell the property. in terms of your options, it is difficult for me to give you a specific recommendation about what to do because i don't know the local circumstances but i will say the good news is that the housing community and every local community has resources that can help people find new options. this is going to sound empty but i would certainly encourage you to try to access those if you can, but i'm sympathetic to your plight because a lot of people are facing the same challenge. host: how much weight does the credit check play into a potential renter on getting a place? guest: each housing provider is different. risk management for various providers are different and they looked at various factors, credit, income, different things to make sure the person whom they lease will be able to pay the rent and they will be a good

resident. it does play a role for most housing advisors. sen. klobuchar: this is from -- host: this is from alabama, good morning. a landlord. you are on with our guest, go ahead. caller: i'm not a landlord, i am a resident in alabama. right now, i get 700 $94 a month in disability and they have money sent to alabama with us. all of us out here are getting a check already, it is more than a check. so now alabama residents, we are getting told there is no funds available for us. and we are staying in a motel with it -- month which is $880 a month. if it was not for my fiance, i would be on the streets. what we do from that? guest: thank you for the question. i don't know who is telling you

there is not resources for folks in alabama. there are rental sources -- resources for every state in the country. billions of dollars has been allocated. if you have access to wi-fi even on your phone, you can go to the cfpb website and put in wherever you are living right now and that will give you the global ranking. i encourage you to talk to them because that is their job. they put money out to folks that need it, not just rent you need right now but rental assistance going forward. there are resources for every state, there is a grantee for every state, and significant -- resources are significant. no one should be saying there are no resources. certainly there should be options and i would courage you to find them and connect with them. sen. klobuchar: the current moratorium -- host: the current moratorium expires in october. what happened after a landlord has to be forced to evict a person?

guest: our members have said if someone is communicating with them, they will work with them to keep them in their units. this comes down to communication. if you are a resident and are in trouble and can find a job or have been affected by covid, you have back paid rent, whatever it might be, talk to your housing provider and tell them and work out a plan with them if you need help accessing rental assistance, do that so you can get the resources you need. that is the first thing. for those housing providers who have residents who have been unresponsive, and these are stories we hear often, whether it is fear of talking to the provider or some people taking advantage of the cdc order, there are few options but to pursue eviction. they have to be able to claim the unit and get someone in the unit who can pay and once to

pay, whether with federal resources or their own resources. there will be evictions when the moratorium expires. like i said, from our membership, what i hear is it is hard to evict someone then to keep them where they are, so the last thing i will do is pursue innovation. for those that do not leave me any other choice, i pursue that. host: what happens about state moratoriums that exist? guest: those remain in place. i think new jersey has a moratorium that lasts until january. california has various jurisdictions that have moratoriums that well into 2022. those do not change. the cdc order is an overlay on state eviction moratorium. everything else remains after it expires. host: this next call is from marion -- narion in florida on our lines for others. caller: how are you? guest: good morning. caller: i have a question, and

i'm not a renter but i want to know how landlords are going to afford to pay their mortgage if people don't pay their rent. guest: thank you for the question, it is the single question that my members ask when they call me, what am i supposed to do? many of them have made difficult choices, especially those mom and pops i mentioned before. they are draining their savings, borrowing money separately to pay for that, using credit cards , doing whatever they can do to make the mortgage payment because banks are being flexible but they can only be so flexible and only for so long. some of them cannot be flexible at all. you are asking the number one question, and the other question my members are asking is how do i pay my people if they have people employed. maintenance workers, leasing agents, custodial, all of those folks that help make the

properties ron, and have been serving the residents throughout covid, what about them? u.s. just the right question, how do they bill them if the rent is not coming in. it is difficult to do that. host: from oklahoma, our line from others, we will hear from wayne. caller: yes. i wanted to ask mr. brown, with all of the money that the government has issued, the extra unemployment and stuff, why are there so many people who fail to pay their rent? guest: i wish i had an answer for you. it is difficult when i do not know. as you say, there have been quite a few financial resources out there for families and individuals struggling during covid. everyone's situation is different and we presume there are good reasons why people are unable to pay. all we are concerned with is finding the resources to help them pay the rent and that is what our focus is. host: this is a viewer from

twitter asking about an economic question saying "can you explain the doubling of not tripling of rental costs over the past 10 years, especially consider the wages that have stagnated during the same time?" guest: that gets to a larger issue, that rental housing and housing issue is dealing with in general. housing affordability is a category of issues we place this topic into. we have not been building enough rental housing or housing generally for a long time to meet the needs, and it is basic economics. not enough supply and a whole lot of demand and your prices will go up. that is what is happening and has been for years, long before covid. covid has made this worse certainly, so the economics are we need to build more housing, more rental housing, at all price points, almost every community in the country. everybody has a different very in level of impact but that is where we need to focus and a whole level of advocacy's we are working on, supporting

legislation on the hill and efforts locally to bring down barriers to new housing, get more supplying to the market, and that is what will bring rents down. that is what we need to focus those efforts long term. we need to keep our eye on the long-term. host: this is jan in pennsylvania, a renter, hello. caller: hi. i wanted to say a lot of these rents are not in sync's with people's wages and salaries. people making $15 an hour, even i will say $20, and i live in an area where it wasn't always like this but now the rents are anywhere between i will say $1600 up to about $2000 a month. it was not always like this. then, the place has these master meters or whatever, and the wood , sewers, and the heat, they split the bill amongst how many people are in the building.

there are 13-15 buildings out here. and we have to pay. the problem is some of the apartments have double families and everything, and i don't think they should be allowed a complex is this size, single houses divided into apartments, fine if you want to split water bills or heat bills, but not complexes. i think it should be individuals. it is like people who play to the rules and only have the amount of people living supposed to be in their living while other people have doubled the amount. we are paying for their water and heat. host: sorry jen about that. that was jan a renter, go ahead. guest: the first part of her question, i hear what you are saying. when markets and local communities change and they become more popular, they have more demand, prices will go up. it goes back to the supply problem i had before. the answer to that is get more supply into the market.

if you get more construction of rental housing and get it at all price points. there may be a greater need of affordable housing in that area, so that would be a focus as well and there are a lot of great programs on that. the water program, you get at master meters where you split the cost of utilities on a pro rata basis area it can be an issue of the older buildings. a submetering is where one meter per every units in a building and everybody pays for what they use. in the building you are describing, it is one big meter and everyone pays a portion and i can see how that could happen. some buildings are not able to get submeters. how they are metered is different for each community. host: this is a tweet from a viewer saying i would hope land lords and tenets workout reduced rent payments. guest: certainly payment plans

are big part of what our members have been doing since the start of covid to help residents get through the process and some of that is deferring rent until later. as far as reducing rent altogether, that is not -- an owner builds, purchases, operates a property on a certain set of financial instructions and that is the rent being charged is charged to cover the costs and make the property run. negotiating a lower rent is not something an individual owner -- >> good morning. you've been noticing, and since you and i have a pink shirt, you get the first question. [laughter] how many of you, raise your hands, if you got six hours of sleep? five. four.