january 6, views from the house sunday night at 10:00 eastern on c-span, c-span.org, or listen on the c-span radio app. c-spanshop.org is c-span's online store. there is a collection of c-span products. browse to see what's new. your purchase will support our nonprofit operations and your time to order the congressional directory with contact information for members of congress and the biden administration. notice c-spanshop.org. smith, the execf the block chain association and here to talk about congress and the recent discussions they had on the topic of cryptocurrency. thanks for being with us. guest: great to be here. host: what do you do and glad to

have you back? guest: we work with our 46 different member companies who are part of the cryptocurrency industry, and we work to figure out the public policy positions of the industry and advocate for those policies before congress and federal agencies. host: when it comes to the cryptocurrency itself, what is the best way for the average person to understand how it works? guest: cryptocurrency does take a little while to understand. i encourage people to google terms they do not understand. it is a digital asset. it is something you can and give to other people -- can own and give to other people. the big innovation is that you can make transactions online in a way that does not involve a middleman.

it creates a lot of efficiencies, and there are different applications that can be built around this technology. they are in the early stages today. in the future, it will lead towards a better financial services system and better internet computing platform. host: when it comes to the currency itself, what gives it value? guest: the value is derived from a couple different things. that coin is the most popular cryptocurrency. bitcoin's value is derived from the fact that it is scarce. there will only ever be 21 million bitcoins. bitcoin is akin to gold. when you look at some of these other cryptocurrencies, they power decentralized networks that offer specific services. there is something called file coin. that is like an amazon web services. the value of file coin is derived from the value of the

underlying service. host: if there is a dollar figure to be attached, how much is out there with regards to cryptocurrency? guest: it fluctuates. this year we reached the $2 trillion threshold. it is a little less than that now. it is a growing asset class. there are new digital assets that are being created all the time. the ones we have are growing in value as well. it is definitely an exciting and fast-growing space. host: one of the issues amongst the debates before congress in the infrastructure built and reconciliation built was this idea of how to treat cryptocurrencies, especially brokers. guest: if you think of your traditional stockbroker like charles schwab or merrill lynch, one of the services they provide is they send you a form 1099 that tells you how much tax you

owe for the capital gains from buying and selling stocks. in the cryptocurrency world, there are crypto exchanges, cracking, finance u.s., and with those types of brokers there are no regulations today for how they are supposed to issue something similar to the 1099. for these companies it is important that we get regulations that give them the guidance they need to offer this service to their customers because this reporting goes to the irs, but it also goes to make everybody's life easier. the problem we had this week in congress is that the language that was included that would help provide this type of reporting for traditional cryptocurrency exchanges included a new definition of the word broker, and the way it was drafted was so broad that it

would actually pull in other people who helped with the operation and maintenance of the decentralized crypto network that do not have customers and don't have information to report. as a result, these types of disease would not be allowed to operate in the u.s. because it would be impossible for them to comply. that is with the guidance is about, getting clarity on this definition of a broker so it applies to those cryptocurrency companies that truly are brokers but leaves out the software developers and validator's and other network participants that are helping keep the network up and running but don't have that customer relationship. host: kristin smith, our guest with blockchain association coming here to talk about cryptocurrencies and related issues. if you want to ask a question, (202) 748-8001 for republicans.

democrats (202) 748-8000. independents (202) 748-8002. perhaps you own cryptocurrency and want to talk about your experience, (202) 748-8003. i want to play a little bit from senator ted cruz of texas, one of the people that went to the floor of the senate and talked about this idea of regulation of crypto and admonishing other senators. [video clip] >> let's exercise a brief shining moment of common sense and less recognize that if we have gathered all 100 senators in this chamber and have them articulate two sentences defining what a cryptocurrency is that you would not get greater than five who could answer that question. given that reality, the barest exercise of prudence would say we should not regulate something

we do not understand. we should take the time to understand it. we should consider the consequences. we should not destroy people's lives and livelihoods from complete endurance. my amendment is simple. it does not add anything to this bill. it strikes these provisions. let's not do this until we know what we are talking about. let's be cautious. let's be reasonable. let's not be the number one economic developer for the communist party of china by sending cryptocurrencies overseas to our competitors because we made it impossible for them to succeed here. host: what is your reaction? guest: i think senator cruz is right. this is an important space and is going to be increasingly important in the economy. it is a complicated space. we have been working over the past couple years to educate

lawmakers and other policymakers about this. it is not something that can be done in a 15 minute meeting. you need a series of conversations that happen over time, and the crypto community has not had enough people working on these issues in washington to adequately educate all the lawmakers out there. we have been working with the irs to figure out how to do this type of reporting for centralized exchanges. what happened with this bill is the new broker definition was added at the last minute and had never been vetted by anyone in the industry. it does reflect the lack of understanding and knowledge gap that exists with certain policymakers as to how this works. we agree with senator cruz that it would have been nice to just take all of the language out.

there was another amendment that was more of a middle ground amendment offered by senator ron wyden and senator pat toomey. this amendment would have kept that language in that would have paved the way for 1099 reporting for traditional cryptocurrency exchanges. the difference is that it w as clear on that definition of a broker. if you are a software developer contributing to the open source code on the network or building wallet applications for a validator doing mining work or validations of transactions on crypto networks that those types of things were excluded from the definition of a broker. we believe that if we had been given a vote on that amendment, there were a majority of u.s. senators who stood behind it. i think this was from my

perspective working on these issues, to see this play out on the senate floor was remarkable. i don't think anyone would have predicted we would be having this type of debate on the senate floor. this is something that should go through the normal process that we should first have ideas introduced in legislation. you should have committee hearings and markups to discuss and improve those. this provision was tucked in at the last minute, and we were not able to get a vote on any of the amendments put forth to try to fix it prior to the infrastructure bill being voted out of the senate. host: one of the people commenting this week was senator elizabeth warren. she said cryptocurrency is the wild west and desperately needs rules of the road to protect the stability of our financial system. i am going to continue to engage the fcc and other federal

regulators on this. what is the response? guest: there are parts of that we agree with and parts we disagree with. we agree the crypto industry, we want to make sure there are adequate investor and consumer protections in place. we want to see that we have strong market integrity. we disagree that it is a wild blast. in the u.s., cryptocurrency exchanges are already regulated in many ways. they all have state money transmitter licenses. they have to have those top rate in those states. those are not easy to get. these companies are registered with the treasury department financial crimes enforcement center. there is a host of regulation that comes along with that.

there is a lot of regulation in place today. where we agree is that this patchwork of regulation where you have some state and some federal does not make sense for cryptocurrency markets. we think having a fresh look at how to properly regulate this in a more uniform way is definitely a conversation the industry has. we have a lot of ideas for how to do that. by doing this on the tax side, by pushing this provision through that does not make sense , by putting these information reporting requirements on to tease that don't have the information, that does not make any sense. that is going to stifle the innovation that is happening in this space because software developers will go overseas. investors will not want to invest in mining capability here.

we are hopeful that as we go to the house that there will be an opportunity to change this language before the bill gets signed into law. it is important in the crypto industry. we think these crypto networks are important infrastructure in its own right. we need to make sure that we are protecting the infrastructure of the future as well as the infrastructure that this bill is looking to fund. host: you can go to our website to see that debate play out. kristin smith of the blockchain association our guest. our first call comes from georgia, on the line for the democrats, you are on with our guest. caller: thank you for taking my message. my question is -- guest: there is no fdic insurance today for cryptocurrency holdings.

host: what factors go into the gain or loss of a currency? guest: in terms of price movements? there are a lot of factors, just like with the stock markets or other assets. you have macroeconomic factors. you can have factors with how the network is operating. sometimes there are larger investors that make different movements that have ripple effects. for better or worse, sometimes a cryptocurrency depends on what elon musk says. that moves markets. the markets are very complex. there are regulatory factors that move markets as well. this is not something that an investor should just jump into without doing their homework. there is a lot of thought and time that i recommend be devoted before investing in this space. host: from new york, this is frank. independent line. caller: good morning.

thank you for your explanation. it is very helpful. my question is -- i am not sure if it is related or not. the two modern monetary theories -- this is uncharted territory as well i think you will agree. it is worrisome for me because we seem to not be caring about the debt the way we used to. the question i have is how does cryptocurrency interact with the system and this new horizon of modern monetary theory? guest: i know there are some investors in bitcoin that are attracted to bitcoin as an investment because of its scarce nature. right now there are about 18 million bitcoin in circulation. over the next few years, we will

see an additional 3 million come into circulation. that is it. it is a scarce resource. it is similar to gold in many ways. for a lot of people when they look at the spending going on in washington and the money supply, they look at decline as potentially the counter to what is going on there. bitcoin and cryptocurrencies is about the individual's ability to own their own assets. you can custody them just like you can hold cash, but -- there are some cryptocurrencies like dogecoin that are inflationary, but most of them are a finite number of tokens. that is where part of the value is derived. host: from maryland, republican line, victor.

caller: i have a two-part question. number one in this infrastructure bill, i don't know which one it is going to be, but i have heard a couple stories that biden wants to put a new tax on 401k and ira accounts, and for those who are not eligible to take any money outcome of this is going to be a new tax. host: i am sorry to interrupt only because the nature of our conversation deals with cryptocurrencies. do you have a question specifically about that? caller: no, because i'm not interested in cryptocurrency. i thought we had an open line. host: there is a viewer on -- texting us this morning, jim in california, saying, how do you prevent criminals from using

cryptocurrency to get paid for ransomware attack's? guest: the criminal usage of cryptocurrency has been a popular topic in the headlines over the last few months. one of the unique features of cryptocurrency is the transactions are recorded on a block chain. this is a public ledger that you can view online and see where all the transactions are going. there are specialized firms that law enforcement works with. chain analysis is the largest one. what they do is days are forensic -- is these are forensic experts that know how to trace transactions through the block chain. whenever you go from a cryptocurrency to a fiat currency, there is a name and social security number and address identified with that transaction because these cryptocurrency exchanges are

registered as money service businesses. law enforcement likes it when criminals use bitcoin because it is much easier to track down the flow of the money and find the bad guys on the other end that are perpetrating the crime. host: that was one of the concerns that gary gensler wrote in a letter to elizabeth warren. right now we do not have enough investment protection in crypto. at this time it is more like the wild west. this asset class is right with fraud and abuse. in many cases investors are not able to get rigorous, complete information. i worry a lot of people will be hurt. as far as rife with fraud, scams, interviews, how do you react to that? guest: i think that is not the case. it was the case in 2017 that there was a period of fraud

where people were trying to take advantage of investors, but the sec cracked down on that. what we are left with today are the good actors that are building useful services and applications on top of block chain. i think one of the things that is interesting about what played out in washington over the past couple of weeks is that there were over 80,000 phone calls and emails that went into senate offices over a couple of days. it is not just a cryptocurrency industry. there are all of these other individuals and small players that are contributing to the upkeep of these decentralized networks. there are a lot of users who feel empowered because they can actually own their assets. when you are using a bank, you

do not feel you have as much control over your assets. there was a tremendous community response. it was not just an industry response, but a community response of users who care about these networks. what i think the senators have seen for the first time and what hopefully gensler realizes as well is that cryptocurrency is not just something for criminals. it is not just fraud. that is a small portion of the activity, just like we have in many other industries. what we have here is a passionate user base that is excited about these assets, that wants to participate, that wants to help create them. i think where we are right now in washington is that for the first time the broader set of policymakers are having to rethink some of the preconceived notions they have about cryptocurrency because there was such a response from so many

individual users across the country. host: can cryptocurrencies in fact the values of traditional markets? guest: i don't know that there is a direct correlation. i think markets will rise and fall based on broader macroeconomic conditions. they tend to be sort of separate . it is not like the price of bitcoin might impact something else. the exception to that would be companies that are publicly traded that have some sort of relationship to bitcoin. those stocks sometimes rise or fall depending on the price of bitcoin. host: what did we learn about that from the gamestop issue earlier? guest: that is interesting because the social media has really allowed information to move quickly to very large audiences. we have seen this with some

stops. we have seen this with cryptocurrencies, the meme driven investing is kind of an interesting space. with cryptocurrency, in the long run the value of the currency is going to be tied to the value of the underlying network. host: kristin smith with the blockchain association, she serves as their executive director. you can call us and give us your thoughts. republicans (202) 748-8001. democrats (202) 748-8000. independence (202) 748-8002. (202) 748-8003, call us on that line if you own cryptocurrencies. terry on the republican line, you are on with our guest. guest: good morning -- caller: good morning. i have two questions. with all the cryptocurrencies, and the other one i have heard of is bitcoin.

did they all start in the u.s.? did some of them originate around the world? if so, have those other countries put regulation in the place? is that part of the problem? help me understand if you can because i am trying to, should we be thinking of these cryptocurrencies more as a hard asset like gold that you buy and sell that you can get cap gains on, or do we think of it more as a currency to use to pay for things like instead of using dollars paying with cryptocurrency, somehow trying to avoid the high bank transaction fees? can you help me? guest: we think of it in many

different ways. bitcoin is a lot of different things to different people. there is a consensus that bitcoin functions similar to gold. there are other currencies called stable coins. there is one called u.s. dollar coin. that is backed by a reserve. you can always exchange one ustc for one dollar. those types of stable coins are well-suited for payments. if you go to the grocery store, you could use a stable coin to buy groceries. you probably would not use something like gold to buy groceries. excuse me. several other specific cryptocurrencies that help run networks. you would use that type of cryptocurrency to access a very specific computing service online. those are considered to be more

like utility tokens. those are different. going to your question on international regulation, these -- there is no bitcoin company. bitcoin is a decentralized network. it is not that these things are located in any one specific place. if you have access to the internet, you can participate in these networks. what we see is that their computers are connected all around the world, and they are sharing and operating on the same open source software that allows the network to run. it really is a global issue, and regulators around the globe have looked at it. the u.s. has some challenges that make it a little more difficult to apply regulation than in other jurisdictions around the world because what we have in the u.s. is a different

set of financial regulators. there are multiple agencies that each have a piece of this. there are other countries that have one financial regulator. it is easier for them to come up with a uniform system because they can do it in one place. i think if the u.s. were to come forth with a more streamlined, conference of regulatory approach, those principles would be mimicked around the world. if this tax principle goes through as is, it will make it difficult for software developers and other network participants to work in the u.s.. we will probably see that type of activity fleet, which is why it is important to get this amendment passed in the house. host: this is jim from our twitter feed saying crypto will

be accepted in the grocery store , until then it is the province of speculators. guest: there is a lot of speculation that goes on today. you have to remember if you think back to the early days of the internet in the 1990's, it used to not be particularly easy to use the internet. you would have to make sure you were not expecting any phone calls, plug in your modem, get online. it was difficult and cumbersome. we see these kinks get worked out, and they become easier to use. there is greater adoption. the criticism today that this stuff is not very useful, well, this is the early days. there is a tremendous amount of research and development. there is application building on top of these protocol lawyers.

what we are good to see is there are going to be new applications that are very low cost that allow for the movement of assets in a way that is quick and fast. you can do it any time of day. all of that is being built right now. it is hard to predict. i don't think in the early 1990's anyone would have thought i could pick up a smartphone and hit a button and get a car that drives me from my home to the tv studio, but that is what i did this morning. what we do know is when you have these open networks, anybody can come in and build on top of them , and that is a layer of infrastructure we want the u.s. to have an active role in building because we think it is going to drive a tremendous amount of activity in the years ahead. host: can you explain how that transaction takes place? guest: that can happen in a couple different ways.

if they accept bitcoin, than they have a wallet address. you can send money directly to their wallet address. what we see with a lot of merchants today is they actually take that bitcoin and immediately convert it into u.s. dollars, but it does not have to be that way. they can just accept it. i can take my send address and send it to their receive address. the transaction happens. it is validated by a network of computers. it is added to the block chain. that block chain is immutable. we know the bitcoin is now there. host: rachel from maryland, go ahead. caller: good morning. thank you. i think this is an interesting conversation, but i see that the ultrarich are trying to find other ways of not paying taxes. us middle-class people pay our

taxes. i agree with senator warren. we need more regulation. this is currency. it needs to be taxed. i think this is about the ultrarich, the wealthy paying their fair of taxes. the advocates, the lobbyists, ted cruz, he is getting paid so that the ultrarich don't have to pay their taxes. host: rachel from silver springs, maryland. guest: i would say, listen, cryptocurrencies today are treated as property by the irs. this is a determination that was made many years ago. if you conduct any transaction in cryptocurrency, you have to determine if there is a capital gain or capital loss. if there is again, you have to pay taxes on that just like anything else. there are a lot of taxes that

are coming into the government every year. if you look at the irs forms, it asks if you hold cryptocurrency. there is a lot of education about how to do that. what we were hoping with the infrastructure bill and what the industry wants is guidance on how the industry can provide the right information to the irs and the consumer so they know how to pay their taxes because today it is more difficult. those taxes are still owed today. if you are transacting with cryptocurrencies, you need to have records of all of those transactions and calculate if you owe money at the end of the year. there are a lot of software platforms that have been developed that can help you analyze and do your taxes. if you are transacting in cryptocurrencies, you pay taxes whether you are in the lower middle income range or the ultra

high net worth range. host: kevin in columbus, ohio, asks if you would explain in some detail with the process of crypto mining is. guest: there are different types of what we call consensus mechanisms. with these cryptocurrency networks, you have all these computers that are working together to maintain a database or ledger of transactions. today, in the traditional world, something like a bank would be the one that keeps that ledger. everyone who works with the bank would have to trust that the bank keeps the ledger. what we do with these crypto networks is all the computers have to agree that a set of transactions is valid and add them to the ledger. there are different types of consensus mechanisms. with bitcoin, bitcoin uses something called proof of work.

this is what we mean by mining. it used to just be your regular computer, but it has gotten much more sophisticated. it is now specialized hardware that ends up solving these complex math problems. through that process, it validates the transaction and adds it to the block chain. it is a really remarkable innovation in computer science and one that is incredibly secure and is an important step forward. there have also been other consensus mechanisms that use other kinds of models. mining is the process of validating the transaction. the reward for doing that work is you actually get some cryptocurrency as a reward. it is the process of adding transactions for a period of time will create new assets.

host: this is paul for kristin smith of the blockchain association. caller: good morning. this is fascinating. i just happened to bump into the show. thank you for the opportunity of calling in. i just had a general question. it sounds like congress is trying to regulate this market like they regulate u.s. stockbrokers individually. my question for kristin is does she think this is actually going to happen at this point? if it does, how long until it does happen without hurting the crypto markets? it seems like from a customer financial standpoint this could be a real boondoggle because things are always quicker than regulation. it could be a real challenge to regulate. my final point, the hedge fund market is not overly regulated.

that is huge and has been humming for years. thank you for this program. thank you for taking my question. great show. guest: i think what the next steps are are largely going to depend on what goes on in the house. we have this language that we think is overly broad, that captures a lot of different actors that don't have the ability to function like a broker. what we want to do is now that the infrastructure bill has been passed out of the senate and into the house, we want to get the house to change the language. that is going to be an interesting process because there are so many politics going on with the $1 trillion bipartisan infrastructure package, and now there is this new $3.5 trillion human infrastructure package. figuring out how that is going to work, it is unclear if there is going to be an opportunity to offer an amendment while the bipartisan bill is in the house.

hopefully we will and will be able to change it. if not, it is possible this language will go into law. the good news is we do not expect the irs to immediately act. there will be a rulemaking period with notice and comment, and hopefully we can keep the reporting requirements on those true brokers, those cryptocurrency exchanges that have customers because that is where that needs to be focused. we need to keep it away from the software developers and the miners. definitely stay tuned. this is something we are going to be watching closely. congress can always undo something later. it makes a challenging, but if this log goes through as drafted, we can try to get a second law passed that would narrow the definition of broker

to where we think it would be most effective to helping with tax compliance. host: the federal reserve itself is contemplating valving its own cryptocurrency. what should they consider? how would that disrupt other cryptocurrencies out there? guest: there is a discussion happening around the globe where central banks are discussing issuing a central bank cryptocurrency. at the blockchain association we think there is a lot of activity going on in the private sector that puts wrappers around dollars and makes it easier to transact. we are indifferent as to whether or not the fed considers creating some sort of u.s. central bank digital currency or cbdc. if they do go forward with that, one of the great features we have with cash today is that it

is private. you can transact on a peer-to-peer basis with one another. you can do that without having to have the government peer into every single transaction you are doing. we think a cbdc should have privacy around it. there are a lot of good reasons for that. sometimes there are private transactions, business transactions, embarrassing transactions. we don't want to have perfect vision into every single transaction. that is what china is doing with their digital currency. that is not the principle i believe we should have driving currency in the u.s. host: here is jason in san diego, democrats line. caller: good morning. very interesting subject. i just have a comment that maybe you could comment on. why is it that the preferred

method of payment for these bad actors, for ransomwares and hostage takers, why do they prefer to get paid in these bitcoins? is it untraceable? they can hide with this? it is easier to get away? can you explain why that is the preferred method? thank you. guest: ransomware existed long before bitcoin existed. it is not always that these types of attacks are asked to be paid in bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies. there are cash requirements or other demands out there. that being said, i think the reason they like it is because the money can move very quickly. the reason they should not like it is with bitcoin you can go through and trace the transaction history.

it gives the law enforcement professionals a lot of ability to figure out where that money goes. i think a lot of the headlines we see are focused on cryptocurrency because it is new, but for most criminals the preferred choice of currency are good old-fashioned u.s. dollars, and that is continuing to be a problem. with cryptocurrency, it is easier to trace these folks. on ransomware, there has been a lot of focus on we need to crack down on cryptocurrency because it is driving ransomware. there are other motivations besides financial motivations that somebody could have. i think it is more important that we address the underlying cybersecurity problems we have

because we could have a terrorist group one day that goes to shut down colonial pipeline or something like that that you cannot stop by giving them money. i think it is really important that as we look at ransomware we want to continue to use those tools we have. we need to figure out how can we ensure that there are good cybersecurity practices in place that prevent these attacks from happening? host: call from shreveport, louisiana, independent line. robin in shreveport, you are on. caller: i am sorry. hi, kristin. with this block chain system is crypto any sort of influence over what is called the quantum banking system? guest: i am not an expert in the quantum space. i know there is concern that

quantum computing will go at the heart of these cryptocurrency networks. i wish i knew more about that topic, but i have not had time to do a deep dive. host: as far as next steps, what are you paying attention to after what you saw in congress this week? guest: we want to figure out how to fix this issue. the good news is we have so many members of congress who want to learn about these issues now. i think over the next weeks and months ahead, we will be doing a tremendous amount of educating to get them the baseline level of knowledge they need to be able to make public policy decisions. also as you mentioned before with chair gensler at the sec, he outlined several different work streams he is looking at related to the crypto space. we are eager to participate in those conversations and bring ideas to the table and figure out a better way to regulate the cryptocurrency space.

there has been a tremendous amount of new interest. we have new players in the crypto ecosystem that are wanting to get to washington. we are going to be doing the policy work and being a place where the crypto industry can convene in order to interact with their policymakers. host: block chainassoc

also in these times contributor on her recent article about gerrymandering and how activists in wisconsin are trying to change the voting process. watch washington journal live at 7:00 eastern on saturday morning and sure to join the discussion with your phone calls, comments text messages and tweets. >> weekends on c-span2 bring you the best american history and nonfiction books. saturday at 2:00 p.m. eastern, a discussion on the survey of presidential leadership with historians. the survey ranks presidents from best to worst in 10 different categories.

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share stories of what they saw, heard, and experienced that day. >> at that very moment when the police officer announced we should take cover, i stood up at the back of the gallery on the second level. a representative from arizona was objecting to the arizona slate of electors and i shouted out at the top of my lungs this is because of you. i screamed it. i think i was representing four years of angst and anxiety and anger. many of us saw this coming from a mile away. i think i represented probably millions of americans who felt the same way. at that very moment, the entire country including myself recognized the fragility of our democracy. i have great appreciation for

the traditions in the congress and decorum. do not like to violated. i do not regret it. it was what i was feeling, it was four years of pent up anxiety about what was transpiring right in front of our eyes. >> this week you will also hear from other congresspeople. january 6, views from the house sunday night at 10:00 eastern on c-span, c-span.org, or listen on the c-span radio app. ♪ a british writer charles dickens is credited with creating some of the best known fictional characters. over 2000 scattered throughout his 14.5 published novels. american authors, journalists, and politicians often refer to situations as being dickensian.

a professor in london has published three books on charles dickens. the most recent one titled a very short introduction. we asked her to tell us about charles dickens life and a compliment including his two trips to the united states in 1842 and 1867. >> listen at c-span.org/podcast or wherever you get your podcast.