>> british writer charles dickens is credited with creating some of the world best known fictional characters. over 2000, for that matter, scattered throughout his 14.5 published novels. american authors and politicians often refer to situations as being dickensian. jenny hartley, professor at hampton university in london, has published three books on charles dickens. the most recent one, titled "a very short introduction." we asked professor hartley to tell us about dickens' life, including his trips to the united states. >> author jenny hartley on this episode of book notes plus. listen at c-span.org/podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. >> "washington journal"

continues. host: we are back with michael tomasky, who is the editor of the new republic. he is here to discuss his recent piece on the resignation of new york governor andrew cuomo. good morning. guest: nice to be with you. host: first i want to start out by reading a comment from you in your article, and i want you to tell us what you meant by it. you write, in 2020 -- 2021 at last, it is not possible as a democrat to survive serial allegations of sexual harassment. the same cannot be at said of the republican party. indeed, republican voters made their serial abuser the president of the united states. what did you mean by that and how does this affect andrew cuomo in new york? guest: well, look, the parties

have different basis. the parties have different constituencies, and those constituencies have different sets of values and concerns. in the democratic party, which obviously has liberals and feminists and people who generally speaking are more concerned about these allegations, then people in the republican party. we see this difference not only with respect to trump, what with matt gaetz, who has very serious allegations hanging over him about sex with an underage girl. i have not heard a republican say boo about that. maybe a couple have, but he still goes around the country giving speeches defending trump and january 6, and so on. in the democratic party it is different. constituencies care more about these kinds of allegations and take them more seriously.

her in mind, there may be an occasion where a democrat could skate through something like this. like, let's say, for example, the lieutenant governor in new york were a republican and cuomo was going to be replaced by a republican. and i think the politics of this situation would be different. i'd knowledge that. by and large we have reached a point where in the democratic party there is no tolerance for this sort of thing anymore. i think that is a good thing. host: do you think andrew cuomo would still be governor of new york if he had been a republican? guest: yeah, i basically do. i don't think, as i just said, there is a machinery, say, within the republican party that, you know, gets terribly upset about these kinds of things and that seeks to punish it in the same way there is in the democratic party.

host: how does the #metoo movement play into this situation in new york with andrew cuomo? guest: well, you know, i think, himself put it pretty well in his resignation speech, although it was kind of pathetic. he said the rules have changed in a way i did not grasp. he should have grasped that. the #metoo movement, which started in 2016 with the allegations against harvey weinstein and a lot of the prominent people in the media, you know, has definitely changed the rules. and men need to understand that and men need to acknowledge that, and particularly elected democrats. the party is not going to put up with that sort of thing anymore. it has had a big, big impact, and he was slow to recognize it,

slow to take it seriously, refused to take it seriously, and it cost him. host: you say particularly that democrats need to pay attention. what is this not extend to the republican party as well? guest: because the republican base does not care as much about this. we saw this in 2016. if that access hollywood tape that donald trump was on, using that vulgar term and talking the way he did with that reporter, if that had emerged about a democrat, the democratic support would have cratered, i believe. and turnout would have been depressed, and so on. for the republican base, it did not matter. host: you brought up andrew cuomo's resignation speech. i want to play a portion and i want you to react to what he said. [video] >> there is a difference between

alleged improper conduct and concluding sexual harassment. now, don't get me wrong, this is not to say that there are not 11 women who i truly offended. there are. and for that, i deeply, deeply apologize. i thought a hug and putting my arm around a staff person while taking a picture was friendly, but she found it to be too forward. i kissed a woman at a cheek at a wedding, and i thought i was being nice, but she felt it was too aggressive. i have slipped and called people honey, sweetheart, and darling. i meant it to be endearing, but women found it dated and offensive. i said on national tv to a doctor wearing ppe and giving me a covid nasal swab, you make

that gown look good. i was joking. obviously, otherwise i would not have said it on national tv. but she found it this respectful. i take full responsibility for my actions. i have been too familiar with people. my sense of humor can be insensitive and offputting. i do hug and kiss people casually. women and men. i have done it all my life. it is who i have been since i can remember. in my mind, i have never crossed the line with anyone. i did not realize the extent to which the line has been redrawn. host: michael, i want you to react to that part of his

statement. guest: yeah, well, it is defensive and it is not very credible, and it is kind of nonsense. if you read about what these 11 women say he did, it is pretty different than a friendly hug. we all know what a friendly hug is. a man can give a woman of his acquaintance a friendly hug. maybe a friendly peck on the cheek, depending on what the nature of their relationship is. everybody knows what a friendly hug is, but you read about what these 11 women say and what they say is that this went way beyond that and in some of his touching and some of his comments. we going to believe? none of us was there, but it is 11 women and it is very damning. host: let me remind our viewers that they can take part in this

conversation. republicans, your number is (202) 748-8001. democrats, call (202) 748-8000. independents, your line is (202) 748-8002. we are going to open up a special line for new york state residents. your number is going to be (202) 748-8003. keep in mind, you can also text, (202) 748-8003. and we are always reading on social media on twitter and facebook. michael, are you surprised that governor cuomo decided to resign ? and what was the breaking point? what made him decide he was not going to be able to stay on as governor? guest: i was surprised, and i think everybody was surprised, everybody who has watched andrew operate over the years. i met the governor in 2002 when

i was covering city and state politics. i have subsequently moved to washington, i have watched his gubernatorial tenure. he is -- tenacious is a nice way to put it. thuggish is a way other people put it. a very aggressive guy, and, you know, not known from backing down from any fights. everybody was surprised to see him resign, i think, but the reason he did it is that he was cornered. he did not have any choice. they were doing headcounts in the state assembly during the state assembly would ring the impeachment charges, and vote on those, and then if they voted them out it would go to the senate for conviction. there were enough people declared in both bodies, as i understand it, that his removal was virtually certain. he decided to do this in an

effort to head off an impeachment. now we learned yesterday through this morning's headlines that the assembly, indeed, will not pursue impeachment against him, which does leave open the remote , to me, possibility that he could have a come back someday. host: which was going to be my very next question. does he have a future in politics in new york state, new york city, or anywhere in the united states? guest: right now i don't think so. you never know about these things. there are always second act in american lives. third acts, i guess it would be. this is not like he got caught with his hand in the till or got caught in some minor petty corruption thing or rig contract

or something like that. this is a violation of a set of values that democrats and liberals now have and hold pretty dear, and i think it is less likely that people are going to be willing to forgive and forget something like that then some other kind of ethical lapse. so i think the road back for him is very tough. he could come back and appear to be chastened and so on and so forth, but, you know, i just think it is going to be hard, especially with a woman the go'. host: you write in your article that you think the cuomo era in new york politics is over. what gives you that hesitation? his father was new york governor mario cuomo and then andrew cuomo followed behind him as governor. do you think the cuomo era is over? >> as i said, i do.

never say never, right? we cannot predict how things will work, what people will think about this for years on, eight years on. he is still not particularly old , early 60's. a comeback eight years from now is not the question. i think it is over. this is another point i was trying to make in the call, i used to cover and have observed this cuomo era and it has lasted almost 50 years. it was i think in 1973 that jack newfield of the village boys wrote a piece bringing to the public's attention this lawyer from queens named mario cuomo. ed was always marry a, not mario -- mario, not mario.

he did a good job there. that is how he became famous and ran for mayor in 1977. he lost narrowly, but then governor of 1982, he ran against koch and eat him. that beat him. then he lost to a republican, than there were others in between, but his son andrew finally took over in 2010i guess it was. host: looks like some of our viewers -- let's let some of our viewers take part in the conversation. we start with anthony calling from new york on the democratic line. good morning. caller: hi. i think politically it is over for him. but that is why i am independent because i think the mccarty party has no rights. i think women have too much power and that is what i see.

that is why i can't be a democrat no more. host: go ahead and respond to that. guest: you know, if that is to stay, that is his take. in the democratic party, there are lots of women officeholders and lots of women in positions of power, and they have made a difference in the way people in the democratic party think about these kinds of issues over the last 20 even 40 years as more and more women are better at politics. i think the vast majority of democrats would say that is a good thing, not a bad thing. host: here's a comment from one of our social media followers that says something similar and we heard this also from andrew cuomo's lawyers so i want you to react to this as well. the comment is "i think the democrats have gone too far to the left with regards to sexual harassment." due process is not being provided to the accused. we heard that from andrew cuomo's lawyer as well, that he

has not been given due process. what you think about those arguments? guest: i disagree with that. he asked for this investigation by the state attorney general, right? when these allegations first surfaced a month ago, cuomo went before the cameras and said i deny this but what i request is that the attorney general conduct an investigation and we will see the results of that investigation and we will go from there. so he got per cicely the due process he requested. i would contrast this with one case, which some might come up, al franken. he was denied his due process, the normal due process of the united states senate. it's an investigation by the ethics committee and was hounded out of office by his democratic colleagues before he had the opportunity to have that due

process. i would say cuomo got the due process he requested. an investigation, and the findings came out and they wear what they were and he had to react the way he had to react. host: let's talk to terry calling from ormond beach, florida on the democratic line. good morning. caller: good morning. i lived in new york for many years and have been a foreigner around eight years. i remember when he was attorney general, cuomo. he was fantastic. he went out after a lot of corporations ripping people off. i like the way he handled the beginning of covid where the government was not helping him, trump government, and he had to fight like crazy to get anything done. as far as this case, this #metoo movement, i am almost 80 years old. something does not ring right. even cuomo's lawyers said these

gals, i think there are 10 or 11 of them, have never signed an like oath or report where you are under oath, documented what is happening. me too does not count. you can't have women saying me too. i saw pictures of the recent gal around -- with her arm around the governor's neck. very cozy. the first one that made allegations actually confided in the governor about her sex life, about how she was accosted at one time. you don't do that with your boss. there is something wrong here, and especially i want these women under oath. host: what do you think about her comments, michael? guest: it is interesting. i wouldn't read too much into

one photograph. i would not put too much stock in one photograph but good luck. 60 spent -- 60% of new yorkers said he should respond. -- should resign. that is not my opinion, that's the majority of a large opinion of new york -- large majority of new york, republicans, democrats, and independents. so the majority clearly thought these were serious enough for him to not be the governor anymore. host: let's talk to lauren calling from alexandria minnesota on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. i think you are wrong on that, that democrats are more dominant with these sex allegations. ted kennedy cheated on his wife, bob john kennedy was a womanizer. john was cheating on jackie left and right.

so democrats are not more -- than the republicans. host: on our social media page, we have a couple people bringing up names like bill clinton and ted kennedy. what do you say about those who say you're being hypocritical if you say democrats don't actually care about these things. guest: no, no, no. that's ridiculous. i talked about 2021. i specifically said in the call and we reached a point in 2020 one at last where democrats cannot survive these kinds of things. bill clinton was 20 something, 25 years ago, monica lewinsky i think was 23 years ago. quick was 1969. jack kennedy was 1961-1963. of course they did those things in those days and went unpunished. those things were not punished in those days in either party. my column says things have changed now just in the last few

years, and now in 2021. so these people are not listening. host: let's talk to pamela also a new york resident calling in on the democratic line. pamela, good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. i wanted to say couple things, because anything i say will be construed as she is a democrat and she will stick up for him or be biased. let me tell you something, a man was elected president, who got on television and admitted he would grab a woman's parts, private parts, and was elected president of the united states. i think this whole thing is absolutely ridiculous that they would take this man down over alleged things he said and supposedly did without him

having the right to get up there and say this is what really happened. anything he says now is being construed as him just saying stuff to get himself off of the hook. i think it is outrageous. i am devastated by the loss of andrew cuomo. i just lived in oregon for almost two years during the start of the pandemic and every morning i tuned in to watch him and cried over how wonderful he was getting this thing under control. i think the whole body of his work, everything he has done, overshadows any kind of rumors or any kind of things like that, because let me tell you something, what he is trying to say without saying it is i am an italian american myself and i can tell you up here in upstate new york people kiss on the lips. one of the city administrators

who knows my family well kissed me on the lips during a democrat fundraiser. i did not get appalled, wrong, and say he is sexually harassing me. host: go ahead and respond, michael. guest: i would encourage the caller to read through the attorney general report, read the allegations these women are making. they are not just like social kissing at a family picnic. i am italian on my mother's side. my name does not sound italian but i grew up going to italian family reunions all of the time. i understand how that is. that is not the same thing as something that feels inappropriate and sexual to the woman. it is just not the same thing. obviously she is entitled to her opinion, but i do not have any quarrel with her. 60% of new yorkers said he had to resign. host: in a couple weeks, new

york will have its first woman governor. talk to us about our audience about current lieutenant governor kathy hochul. caller: she is, from what i -- guest: she has, from what i understand, liked and admired. she is from buffalo, the major city upstate, one of the major cities, and she has had a pretty impressive career. she won the congressional seat in buffalo in 2011, in a special election. there was a seat held by republicans for 40 years. she lost at sea the next time because they redrew the district and may the republican more district -- made the district more republican. but then she worked for governor eliot spitzer. then cuomo chose her as his running mate in 2014 in part because cuomo was facing a primary from a woman and he decided he needed a woman running mate. then cuomo kind of wanted to get rid of her in 2018 but she held

on and one. the love -- the governor and lieutenant governor ran separately. she won her race against a pretty tough challenge. she is known for being calm, reasonable, competent. not that the lieutenant governor has that many things to do, but those are the words used, to me, to describe her. it will be very interesting to see what she does, not only the first woman governor but the first true upstate governor in a long time. i think about a century. and who see chooses for her lieutenant governor is an interesting question and what kind of tone will she said and what will her relationship you like with the speaker of the state assembly and the leader of the state senate, both of whom are democrats. both who have majorities in the houses. there are a lot of interesting things to watch, but those who i

talked to seem hopeful about it. host: she will be probably the first upstate governor in new york in a long time, but that means many people downstate, new york city, don't know who she is. is that an advantage or disadvantage for her? guest: that's a good question. probably both in different ways. on balance, it is probably a slight disadvantage. she will probably have to spend a lot of time in the city and getting to know the various powerbrokers, political and economic, in the city. because the new york state democratic party is so concentrated in new york city and in the immediately surrounding counties like westchester. so she will have to choose a lieutenant governor from downstate, i believe. both legislative leaders are from downstate. the a simile speaker is from the

bronx, and the state senate leader is from across the line. -- across the line from the bronx. she will have to demonstrate to downstate or that they will want to insist to her that we still run the show. host: let's talk to maxine calling from leavenworth, kansas on the democratic line. maxine, good morning. caller: morning. i think you are right about democrats and republicans have different sets of morals. andrew cuomo had allegations, unproven allegations, of harassment, donald trump admitted himself he sexually assaulted women. my question is, do you think cuomo would have been forced to resign if he had been a republican, and republicans had been in power in new york? host: go ahead and respond michael. guest: i don't believe he would

have, no. i do not think the republican party is as worked up about these kind of issues as democratic rank-and-file voters are. host: i want to ask you a little bit about month's new republic, where an interview of mary trump will be in this month's issue of the magazine. what will readers learn in this interview? guest: it is not an interview, it is an essay by mary trump, the cover story of the september new republic, which is on our website, www.tnr.com, and should be on new stanza soon. i asked her to write this piece because a lot has happened since her book came out. a lot of interesting things, january 6, the aftermath, and the rest. i thought it would be interesting for readers to hear

from mary, who is a terrific writer and smart person. what she -- on what she makes of these most recent events and whether she would seek the presidency in 2024. people should read the piece. it is a very powerful essay i think about the danger she believes he and the republicans still posed to this country. host: people can find the essay right now on new republic.com ash newrepublic.com? -- newrepublic.com? guest: while it is tnr.com, but i think that will redirect. host: thank you for talking us through the resignation of andrew cuomo. thank you so much. coming up in this time, magazine contributor cat sees our will

talk about redistricting, her article, and how some are trying to change the process. ♪ >> weekends bring you the best in american history tv and nonfiction books. sunday on book tv, hear from authors attending freedom fast in rapid city, south dakota, including new hampshire based author carly garrick on her opinion pieces and short stories in her book, the a static pessimist. then a columnist with his book, our broken elections, which he argues liberals use the covid-19 pandemic to change the election system and make it more vulnerable to fraud.

economic historian deirdre mccloskey with her book uttering human makes, which looks at a new kind of economics that focuses on science and a better understanding of human action. george gilder talks about the future dominance of artificial intelligence in his book gaming ai. on afterwards, conservative podcaster and journalist ben shapiro discusses his new book the authoritarian moment in which he argues the progressive left is pushing an tort -- any authoritarian agenda in america. he is interviewed by eric with taxes. watch book tv every weekend and find a full schedule on your program guide or watch online anytime at book tv.org. ♪

>> "washington journal" continues. host: we are back. for our spotlight on magazine segments, we will be talking to a contributor to in these times magazine, and she will discuss her article looking at gerrymandering and how activists in wisconsin are trying to change the process. good morning. guest: good morning. thanks for having me. host: for our audience, tell us what the publication for in these times