"washington journal"

continues. host: we will turn next to the fate of children -- women and girls in afghanistan. anita mcbride was the chief of staff with first lady laura bush from 2005 through 2009, and has been a member of the u.s. afghan women's council. guest: thank you for having me. host: tell us about the council. when was it formed, and what happened to its mission? guest: thank you for the opportunity to talk about the u.s.-afghan women's council which was formed in 2002 as a public eye from private partnership and a bilateral partnership between the government of afghanistan and the government of the united states of america. with president bush, all eyes of the world were turned to women of afghanistan, the brutal

treatment they had lived under, under the taliban, for too many years. when laura bush gave the historic radio address in november of 2001 as first lady, really it demonstrated, through her very poignant words, what women have been facing in afghanistan -- the nile -- the denial of education, the participation in the country, the brutal horrific treatment. and with that not only were the eyes of the world with the eyes of american women, who wanted to do something to help their afghan sisters -- the council was formed in 2002 under the leadership of a senior member of the state department team, the undersecretary for global affairs, who was the architect of developing the council, how it would work as a public-private partnership.

american companies, american businesswomen, businessmen, joined eagerly to find a way to address the most urgent need. the most urgent needs for him for categories -- education of course because women had been denied a generation of education, unable to go to school. there was not one girl in school in afghanistan in 20 -- in 2001. the other was health care. the maternal mortality rate was the second highest in the world, next to sierra leone. it was terrible conditions for health care for women, nonexistent essentially. the other was economic empowerment, a way for women to support themselves. the taliban would not let women leave their home to earn money. many of them were war widows, raising family, sending their children out on the street to try and get food or scraps or something to sustain themselves. taking what they had, skills,

and turning them into financial resources for them. the fourth area of great need was women's political participation, leadership. and leadership in all sectors, building up the capacity to be part of a civil society and rebuild their country. here we are, 20 years later, and 16 million women have been put back in the same place they were 20 years ago, after so many years of hope and progress. we need to understand the progress that women made their. -- there. host: give us a sense of the progress in terms of the numbers the council was able to affect over the past almost 20 years. guest: in one area is women's leadership. there is so much invested in leadership training for women,

not only through the council, but with our partners. like the artemis program at the university of arizona. they are doing economic empowerment training and leadership for women. also, the ability to work to be educated and to go into law, to be judges, to be parliamentarians. some of the most brave and bold young women that were now educated and becoming parliamentarians, writing the laws of their country. we provided not only our country but other countries around the world training in law enforcement. one of my trips with laura bush to afghanistan in 2008, the final trip she made as first lady, we met with the only female governor in afghanistan. she was a big supporter of

training women for the local police force. every sector of society had women now working in it. from law enforcement to legal affairs to political participation, and entrepreneurship. host: how much of you been in touch with the women you have been involved with, in terms of the afghanistan counsel there in afghanistan, and those who may have made it to the united states? guest: we have never, for 20 years -- and this is really an important thing for americans to hear about what we have done. our generosity has helped to give hope and opportunity to the women of afghanistan, and they were doing it for themselves. they wanted to stay and build their country. we have consistently supported them for 20 years, through four administrations, to support the afghan women's council, which

thankfully, georgetown university -- when the bush administration left in 2008, we wanted to be sure the council could continue. a mechanism was devised for the council to be houston georgetown, which really took on a great deal of help and support in the leadership program that we were able to do. a senior member of the state department team was detailed to the council, so that we could keep the bridge open between the public and private side. the global women's issues office at the state department was deeply engaged with us. we had access on the ground to our embassy and ambassadors. the fulbright program was a shining light for afghanistan. president bush put me on the board.

president obama reappointed me. i oversaw the afghan program specifically. when we started it, there was three afghans who were qualified, had the education and training to make it through the rigor of fulbright. three. not one of them were women. by the time that i left the program 11 years later, we had dozens of fulbright or's qualifying, and half of them were women. we continue to work with them. host: our guest is anita mcbride. women and girls in afghanistan, we welcome your calls and comments. mountain and pacific, (202) 748-2001. how arlie did you start to become concerned what life would be like for women and girls in afghanistan after the u.s.

withdrawal? guest: it started before the u.s. withdrawal. one of the women i have been working with consistently, was her mentor -- she is now here on political asylum because it was such great risk for her to live in afghanistan, and she came here about five years ago. she tells this very poignantly. she said the golden years for children in afghanistan were 2001 through 2014. it was consistent support. coalition forces were on the ground, providing security. not only the united states, although of course we bore the greatest burden. there was the international community was really operating well together and supporting all sectors of society. those were the golden years. 2000 -- 2014, things began to

change for afghan women. we started engaging in dialogue with the taliban. the office was opened in qatar. the obama administration began to have dialogue. probably the big chain -- game changer was the prisoner swap, when president obama exchanged five taliban prisoners for the army soldier who had really, many would say now, really went so that was the beginning where things started to change. host: what was it about that moment that made things change in your view? guest: people in leadership in the taliban are back in afghanistan or on their way back to afghanistan.

leading the charge in villages and communities. maybe not necessarily kabul, but other places of the country where this started to get some control. women began to worry about their rights being protected. and then in these last weeks. and then also what was coupled by the fact that americans were more wary. at that point after 14, 15, 16 years, they were war weary and we could feel it and we continued our work and continued growing partners, both in afghanistan and the united states to work on these areas of concern. we could feel the weariness by americans, that it was time to

leave afghanistan. the women of afghanistan worried about that. and then with this last year and last months and weeks, with dizzying speed come overnight, 16 million afghan women at a risk. host: we take the phone close to look at some of the progress that has made, about 3.5 of the 9 million afghans enrolled in schools were female. the number of schools rose tenfold after 2001. in 2003, fewer than 10% of afghan girls were enrolled in school and into thousand three, they had been shattered by rising insecurity. by 2020, 21% of afghan civil servants were women compared to almost none during the taliban years. women's life expectancy grew to

66 years in 2017. mortality during child meant -- childbirth declined from 1100 to 396 and 2015. guest: those numbers are incredible. it tells the story. that was the hope of afghanistan. that progress was continuing. i appreciate that you shared those statistics. we really want your viewers and people to hear that. i want our american military, veterans, goldstar families, and of the wounded to know that their efforts were not in vain. they gave hope and opportunity. there were the best of our opportunities that we tried to bring to afghanistan. host: what is your biggest fear

today with no military presence and no diplomatic residence on the ground in afghanistan? guest: that if he goes back to the way it was before 2001 when the taliban first entered. nothing to base it on that they will be any different, because we know they already are terrorizing women, keeping them from getting to the gates at the airport, keeping them from checkpoints. now fanning out to the borders as people are trying to make yet again a daring cross. they couldn't do it by plane and they will try to do it by a car or over land and by foot. these stories are coming in and people are risking their lives to try to share this with us so they know what we are facing. a young female journalist went on afghan tv two weeks before

everything broke down this august and interviewed a member of the taliban and directly said, we want our rights and we will not give up our rights. she then went into hiding and has since left the country. she wanted the world to know this is a different generation of afghan women who don't know anything other than access to education, being able to work, access to health care, functioning and participants in their society. it is not going to be easy for them. they are resilient. i don't know how much people will fight back and what fear does to people, in their hearts, they know we had their back for so many years, and now of course they are worried and we are too.

host: from some of your headlines, no possible life under taliban rule. as gran -- afghan women fear murder after u.s. withdraw. our first call from maryland. good morning. caller: my question is -- what about the young afghan men aged 20, 25, who have grown up seeing their mothers engage in society, be educated, growing up with their sisters who went to school with them? what role can they play in supporting the women of afghanistan today? guest: that is a brilliant question and gives me an opportunity to tell you a story, without giving any names, of an evacuation that we tried to do three times in the last week of a family, of which a mother and

father, two sisters, two brothers. the two brothers are exactly the age you are talking about, about 20, 21. their entire lives they grew up seeing their mother working, their sisters being educated. in the perilous attempts to try and get out of the country, they were defending their family and trying to help as much as they could. without giving too many details, it was disappointing it didn't work to get them out. they were right there defending their family's honor, defending their sisters, defending their mother. and they function like any family here they were working

hard. they were trying to make a living. they were being educated. they had aspirations, hopes, and dreams, along with their sisters. and you worry because they are at the age to be taken by the taliban and forced in supporting their efforts, which are dark and evil efforts. i just don't know. host: to gordon calling from laramie, wyoming. go ahead. caller: thanks for your efforts, ms. mcbride, with the afghan women. you already addressed the comments i was going to make about thinking the veterans. so many men and women have died trying to protect the rights of these women and the people who have sanity in afghanistan. you know, all the c-17's that

were heading into the airport in kabul, they were empty going in and they should have been full of troops, tanks, and artillery. the only way to win a war is by overrunning force, as we did in world war ii and desert storm. korea, vietnam, iraq, afghanistan, they were destined to lose because of the strategy. that's all i have to say. thank you again for your effort. we will keep praying for these men and women in afghanistan that have any sense at all. host: anita mcbride? guest: i think you bring up an important point on just what our military did to help liberate this country, give them a chance to build their nation for

themselves. i think you saw so many veterans and nonactive duty, retired military that went back in, and these incredible ways to help facilitate the departure of afghans. many of them who they knew whether they were translators or afghans they had met during their deployment. these underground railroads, how brave and our official efforts and military were helped by those. the way these people were communicating and trying to get people out, particularly our special immigrant visa applicants, especially those who risked their lives to work with us and thought we would be with

them and help them. i am glad that you mentioned that, because our military are absolutely amazing, active duty and retired, and they found ways to get in. i was getting facebook messages from women veterans who had served in afghanistan and were so worried about the women they had met in their years of deployment and trying to figure out ways to help them, get messages to them, try and get them out. this is a band of brothers and sisters in our military that are just the best of our nation, and they weren't going to give up. host: in what ways with the rights of women codified by the afghan parliament between 2002 and present day, and is it your concern all of that will go away under taliban rule? guest: it is interesting that you say that. there was a comment hillary clinton used to make when she

was in the senate, and then also as secretary of state said you can have laws on the books but if they aren't on the streets, than they are not effective. one of the major areas of focus that we all had through several administrations, and especially in the bush administration, was putting together a team of lawyers and judges to work with afghan parliament in writing those laws. and then there were ngos on the ground and women's groups, founded by hillary clinton and headed by my predecessor. wheat worked hand in hand with these organizations -- we worked hand in hand with these organizations to help write the laws and help women get an

opportunity to be a part of the political process and legal process. when hillary clinton was secretary of state and was meeting with afghan delegations, she refused to meet with any afghan delegations if that were not women in it. we were helping them in subtle ways and not-so-subtle ways to be full participants in writing the laws of the country and enforcing them. host: let's hear from curtis in apopka, florida. good morning. host: go ahead, you are on the air. caller: se people -- i see people serving in the military. he should be removed. for him to be speaking.

host: let's go to howard in salisbury, north carolina. go ahead. caller: i just heard that how we tried to go over there and write a constitution for the afghan and how we are concerned about the women's rights and about terrorists. but it is so ironic how people, especially european americans, feel like biden did something wrong by pulling out and how it was pulled out. can we just look at what is happening in america today? the same thing. people not having the right to vote, no democracy. right now, we are worried about terrorists from over there.

we have terrorists right here. i am glad we pulled out of afghanistan so we can concentrate on us. guest: i would like to respond to that, and i do understand that. 77% of americans wanted us to leave afghanistan, our military presence. we are certainly not denying that. almost an equal number don't like the way that we did it and the weight we left and the cast we left behind. you are absolutely right. -- and the way we left and what we left behind. you are absolutely right. we can protect our own safety and security because we have to understand what happens in a faraway country in afghanistan can affect us here. we know it did. next week is the anniversary of

9/11. it is 20 years. nobody on september 10 knew attorney think about afghanistan -- knew a darn thing about afghanistan. we can't support impact of terrorism. we are a global, open border world. we have problems here at home and we have to focus on them. that is what our elected leadership should be doing, protecting our security. host: i have a question from jacksonville, florida. she said american values are not islamic values. the limit of afghanistan believe there are no rates for women. guest: the thousands of afghan women i met over 20 years of course respect their religion, but they also want to be participants in their country. i will give you an example of a

imprisoned who studied at one of our western universities. she was given an opportunity several years ago to apply for asylum here, and she didn't want to leave her country. she said fulbright invested so much in me, i am making contributions in my country. afghan women can have a right to a life, to participate in our country. it doesn't divorce her from the fact that her religion is islam, not at all. i think people like her and her family worried that their religion gets perverted in that way, that doesn't allow women to participate in the life of the country or they just don't accept that.

host: i want to ask you your reaction to stories like this and the headline of the washington post is "women in western afghanistan protest taliban rule despite the dangers. dozens took to the street on thursday and a rare public mensuration against taliban restrictions on the right -- in a rare public demonstration against taliban restrictions on their rights. the group enforce an extreme interpretation of sharia law, forcing women to wear burqas, beating women who went out in public and accompanied her coat -- accompanied." guest: this is a different generation of afghan women. they don't know anything other than the opportunities they had to be educated, to work, to contribute to their communities, to their family, to their country. there amongst, the afghan women

i meant -- i met over 20 years, including those who lived under taliban role, they are the most determined women i had ever met. and that is at great risk for them to go out in the streets and be identified as challenging the taliban rule. when it happened, the first couple of days after the beginning of the withdrawal, after president ghani fled the country, there were a group of women that stood outside the -- and said we demand our rights. that was at great risk to them. i don't know who they are, those women specifically, and i don't know where they are.

host: let me get your reaction to a taliban spokesperson reacting to the criticism. he said the islamic emirate is committed to the rights of women within the framework of sharia law. our sisters and men have the same rights and will benefit from their rights. there will not be any discrimination against women, that within the framework we have we will allow women to work and study within certain frameworks. guest: we will have to see. does that mean, is it something as simple as women will be able to continue to be educated but educated separately from the men ? that would be the most mild interpretation of that. we already know one of the best examples of our soft power in our diplomacy was helping the afghans establish a university,

the american university of afghanistan which has now been completely taken over by the taliban. i don't know if women have access to it right now. they probably don't. we will have to see what that means. it is the old adage, action, not words. we don't have anything positive to base those words on yet. i am not sure when or what we are going to see. guest: we will go to deborah calling from maryland. good morning. caller: i would like to ask the young lady. if you are so supportive of women's rights in the middle east, why are you so supportive of saudi arabia and why did you skedaddle so fast out of syria, abandoning kurdish women to the tender mercies of isis. guest: that was horrible.

you are saying me specifically. certainly i did not make those decisions and i wasn't proud of my government for having done that. the kurds fought alongside us, trying to keep out these horrible elements. isis wreaked havoc on not only people of syria but other countries. all of us remember seeing that jordanian pilot being burned to death on worldwide tv. i don't condone those kinds of actions. we do get weary of it being involved in conflict. our military is mighty, but we also are a country of political leadership and different political leaders have different opinions of how our military should or should not engage. it is one thing about our

country, we don't often play the long game. that is part of being in a free society of differing opinions and when differing opinions are in leadership they get to make different decisions. it breaks my heart that happened to people who worked alongside us and we are doing the same thing to the afghan translators and those working alongside our military. i don't know how -- were going to have a tough time getting over this as a nation and have other nations trust us as a partner. i do fear that. host: let's hear from robert in maryland. good morning. caller: how are you this morning? host: fine, thank you. caller: what concerns me is i see we care about the women's rights over in afghanistan, yet in texas we don't care about

women's rights. another thing is, what i can't believe is the people, we worry about democracy in afghanistan, it texas they are trying to take the minority civil rights away. it is kind of hypocritical. when people sit back and objectively evaluate that we call that hypocrisy. host: anita mcbride, any comments? guest: going back to the, we made earlier, we have big challenges and issues in our own country to face. we are a country of laws and so in a country of elected leadership, you have to fight back on policies that are made that aren't serving the american people. i totally get that. we have our own set of problems

that we have to work on, and we put people in elected positions to make good decisions for our lives area we also -- lives. we also put people in elected positions, the president of the united states has the responsibility for our safety and security, to really have our eyes out on the world where we have threats to challenge our way of life. we saw that happen to us 20 years ago. that did not go away. we have to remain ever vigilant to keep what's happening overseas, which is acts of terror everywhere to keep it from our homeland. i will repeat what happened in afghanistan mattered to us here. it took the lives of 3000 americans 20 years ago. now 2700 of our military.

we can't divorce ourselves from both problems come outside our borders and in our own. host: a question from russ in texas, he says we had excess with women in afghan and that is fine, but going forward do you have any strategies to help those educated in afghanistan? guest: that is a great question. we have a 20 year track record working with women. it is going to be challenging with access on the ground. believe it or not, there are still people working on the ground and ngos not pulling out. assistance is probably the most critical. people are hiding in their homes. they don't have access to food, to services. there are so many challenges that are there that the humanitarian crisis is real. the international community is

trying to negotiate with the forces that are now running the country to allow humanitarian aid but to get it into the hands of the people and not be corrected, which is -- has certainly played afghanistan for many years. we are continuing to operate, to be their voice. it is harder to be an advocate and a voice when people are in hiding, but we are finding ways to do it and we are finding ways to try and get some people out. but the reality is, the majority will not get out and they will be there and we don't exactly know what their lives will be like yet. we haven't seen the action us -- actions of those ruling the country. we are finding a way to get aid and keep being the international community that turning their

eyes and back on the mentoring crisis that is happening. host: let's hear from leo in el cajon, california. caller: good morning. this is difficult for me. if you care about the women and girls in afghanistan, shouldn't we have stayed in afghanistan and try to solidify that country instead of moving into iraq and trying to topple saddam hussein? saddam hussein was not a good guy, but he did fight iran and there was no ices in afghanistan or in iraq at the time. so the expansion of the war into iraq has abandoned afghanistan and under the circumstances, if we had stayed there, afghanistan could have been made a more solid country and you would've

had more ability to take care of the women and girls in afghanistan. host: thanks for your call, leo. guest: the reality is we never really did leave afghanistan. our footprint was being reduced, but we had a presence. we had a force there. and that was helping and providing security and stability and training the afghan forces. we were all disappointed to see what happened this august with the afghan forces. but the reality is, so many afghan military lost their lives in these years trying to protect their country. we did have a presence. and i think someone argue even a small footprint remaining on the

ground there would have prevented this chaos from happening. we look at countries where we have been for 70 years. in korea where we have a footprint, it has kept peace between north korea and south korea. there is going to be a lot of monday morning quarterbacking, examining the decisions over the last 20 years and certainly examining the decisions over these last few weeks to pull out so precipitously with no real plan, shutting down our secure airfield. people just don't understand that. and i really hope and this is starting, a real examination by the congress of the decision-making process that went into pulling out entirely and so precipitously. host: karen is calling from new

port richey, florida. caller: good morning. first of all, i loved the texas caller. he was right on. it has been an unstable nation since and before 2001. i am wondering why they continued in a war-torn, unstable environment to continue to have somebody children. and i am wondering how many of those babies belong to american soldiers and why do we think we can continue to change this nation or any other nation. guest: i will answer your last question because that is the only one i can speak to. i think there was a real belief and a hope, certainly by afghan women, that they can be the force for change in their country. there is not one country in the world where women aren't

marginalized and fully participating that is anything other than a failed nation. the afghan women felt they could help change the tide of their country. we were helping them, because remember what i said earlier as well we knew that the instability and the terror they are its way to our shores and if women felt they could help change their country and we could help them do that and ultimately be a connection to our own safety and security, then we had to try. our veterans that were there believed they were doing that and met some of the bravest afghan women and men in the world trying to change it. that is the only way i think i know how to answer you is to say there was hope and opportunity that it could be different. host: it is the u.s.-afghan

women's council and anitascussi.

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