prize of $5,000. entries for the competition will be received wednesday september 8. for rules, tips, and more information on how to get started, go to our website. washington journal is next. ♪ host: good morning. it is monday, september 6, labor day. we begin with the question of the workplace in the time of covid. we want to know where you stand on companies instituting vaccine mandates as a condition for returning to the workplace. phone lines split differently. employers can call in at (202)-748-8000, employees can call in at (202)-748-8001, all others (202)-748-8002.

you can send us a text message at (202)-748-8003. if you do, include your name and where you are from. catch up on social media @c-spanwj, on facebook at facebook.com/c-span. good monday morning to you. you can start calling in on this question of whether you support employer vaccine mandates. here is the latest polling from last week on abc of 1000 u.s. adults. 52% support businesses requiring employees who come to work to be vaccinated. just under two in 10 say they are required to be vaccinated. 3 in 10 are unvaccinated and were asked what would happen if the mandate was imposed. 16% said they would get

vaccinated, 35% said they would ask for exemption, 42% said they would quit. those numbers from washington post abc news poll. recently this idea of an employer vaccine mandate discussed by the u.s. chamber of commerce in discussion with u.s. surgeon general. he answered a variety of topics. this is what he had to say. [video clip] >> there are a lot of people who bristle against the idea of requirements but the notion of having requirements for safety in the workplace is not new. many employers are familiar with this, especially health care workers. they have to get certain vaccines in order to work in the workplace like the flu vaccine. these are the steps we take to protect not only the workers but those who come into the workplace. i think they are very reasonable

steps to take. the department of justice has weighed in in terms of legality and it is appropriate. i think with the full approval of the pfizer vaccine workplaces can feel more comfortable on those kind of requirements. >> one of the challenges is we are facing such a massive worker shortage. i know there are employers that are afraid if they mandate this vaccine they are going to have a harder time holding onto their workers. if you were looking into the camera and talking to these business leaders, what would you say to them? >> it is a really good point and i know when you are running a business, and i had the privilege of running a technology company for many years before i served as surgeon general, i know the talent you bring in, that is your goal.

that is the most important asset you have. to lose talent is a huge cost. but i would also consider, in addition to thinking about how people act negatively to a requirement for a vaccine, i would also think about the flipside which is how employees may react to a workplace they do not feel is sufficiently safe. we are already starting to see these rumblings in some businesses i speak to. employees have questions. how do i know it is going to be safe? especially if they have young kids or people who are vulnerable at home. many are unwilling to come into a workplace or into a place of learning where they feel there is not adequate protection and they feel the people around them are not vaccinated. i would strongly consider that as well. at the end of the day, i think history will judge us well for the steps we take to create

safety, safe spaces for kids to learn, people to work, clients to get services. that is where i think these vaccines are justifiable. will it cost them short-term? as we all figured this out, yes. but i think there is a cost to in action as well. more and more we know there was a large portion of the workforce that is already having doubts about coming back to working in person, that has questions about how to make sure their family is taking care of as they try to come back to some work life. i think it is important at this moment in time that employers try to do everything they can to make sure the needs of their employees are met. and i think the vast majority of employees want to know the workplace is safe and they are not going to bring infection back to the people they love at home, especially if they are not vaccinated. host: that was the u.s. surgeon general in conversation with the

u.s. chamber of commerce. if you want to watch the entire conversation, it is on our website at c-span.org. this workplace question, do you support employer vaccine mandates? (202)-748-8000 four employers to answer, (202)-748-8001 for employees, all others (202)-748-8002. also, you can catch up on social media and already a healthy conversation going on on facebook and twitter pages. this is donald from facebook, yes, an employer has an obligation to their workers to provide reasonably safe workplace. if customers are exposed to workers, the employer is legally obligated to provide safety. this is a worldwide pandemic that is being needlessly extended by an action and fullest. this saying, my body my

choice. justin saying, freedom is not a one-way street. freedom is having the choice to get the vaccine and an employer requiring you to be vaccinated. freedom is also giving you the choice to quit. just because you do not like the options or choices does not mean your freedom has been taken away. we especially want to hear from you on the phones. brenda is up first on the phones. up early in california on the line for employees. brenda, good morning. caller: good morning. how are you? host: i am doing well. what is your thought on private company vaccine mandates? caller: i work in the department in san francisco and am part of the vaccine team. i am one of the supervisors. what i would say to that is, there is a big battle going on with the public sector workers

about people who want to be vaccinated versus people who feel like it should not be mandated that they get vaccinated. my personal feeling, and i have told them this for me, seeing what happens to people and how it is not gone away i would say that i am totally in support of them mandating people to be vaccinated. i really do not want to go to work in a public health setting and work with someone who does not have the vaccine or is not protected. and the patients are going to be exposed to these things. definitely support the vaccine. host: what is the requirement right now? is there a requirement or have they said there is going to be one down the road? caller: what they said is if you work for the city of san francisco, it is mandated that

you get vaccine. they will give you a certain amount of time to do it. if you refused to get the vaccine, you will have to get testing at least twice a week. and so, there are people opposed to any of that. i know our union is meeting with the city and different unions who cover the public sector workers to talk about how best to handle that. but i think it is going to end up that people have to be vaccinated. we already do it for tb and a lot of other things when it comes to public sector workers. if you do not have your tb test, we will send you home because you might expose other people. i do not see how this would be any different. host: thank you for the call. you headed to work on this labor day? caller: actually, i am off today. i have time to watch you.

host: have a great labor day. thank you for watching. brenda talking about public sector employees, very much part of this conversation and has been. public employee conversations one that started before the private employers got on board with these vaccine mandates. governor ron desantis in florida recently was asked about public employee vaccine mandates, specifically law enforcement. this is what he had to say about the idea of vaccine mandates. [video clip] >> no, i think people need to make the decisions about what they want to do. part of the problem with these vaccine mandates is they are very unscientific. i have not seen any mandate that recognizes prior infection and immunity you get through prior infection. that is not following science if you are not recognizing that. my view is it is available for all, forced on nobody. host: governor ron desantis,

republican governor of florida. we want to hear from you this labor day morning about employer vaccine mandates. norman in new jersey, good morning on the line for all others. caller: good morning. i can't understand what this nonsense is about people getting a religious -- can't do it for religious reasons. what is the religious reason? i am 95 years old. i remember when the polio vaccine came out. there was no question about it. this is a matter of life and death, it shouldn't be political , it shouldn't be for religious or your rights. you cannot speed, you have to put on a seatbelt, they come

up with stupid reasons to not get the vaccine. it is not only their life, it is my life. i am 95 years old. i am afraid somebody that does not get vaccinated will infect me or my wife, we are both in our 90's. not only at work but at restaurants i think you should be required to show that you have been vaccinated. i just got my booster shot. i don't think my rights are going to be affected by getting the vaccine. your life is in change or and other people's life is in danger. host: stick around until the 9:00 hour. we are talking a lot about booster shots and the latest on the rollout for booster shots.

the biden administration aiming for september 20 as the start date for that booster shot. lori tremmel freeman joining us at 9:00 for that conversation. on the idea of vaccine mandates, you talk about religious exemptions. that is discussed in the guidance offered to private sector companies by the equal employment opportunity commission. this is there guidance they put out to businesses when it comes to conforming with laws around mandates in the workplace. federal equal employment opportunity laws do not prevent an employer from requiring all employees physically entering the workplace to be vaccinated for covid-19. in some circumstances, title seven and the americans with disabilities act requires the employer to provide reasonable

accommodation unless providing accommodation would pose an undue hardship on the employer's business. that is the federal guidance to companies on this in navigating the workplace laws in place when it comes to mandates. we are asking you this morning, do you support employer vaccine mandates? william in baltimore, employee. what kind of work do you do? caller: yes, i am operating remote. i work in the surgical suite. i definitely support the vaccine and, as a matter of fact, as of november 1 the hospital is requiring all employees to get the vaccine. of course, there are a few holdouts who are going to try and use the religious clause to

not get the vaccine, but i can tell you privately those of us who have been vaccinated are looking at those who have not gotten the vaccine are irresponsible in putting others at risk. i had to stop giving my coworker a lift from work because i found out he was nonvaccinated and he kept it secret from me. it is causing some rift in the workplace but if we want to get back to normal, i think we all have to get vaccinated. thank you for taking my call. host: thank you for the call. allentown, michigan, sarah, you are next. caller: hello. how are you? host: i'm good. go ahead. caller: i do not agree with any mandates. people have the right to choice and also based on what i find

amazing is that people think viruses are eradicated. viruses do not get eradicated. they live on the planet with us, they always have, they always mutate. we carry viruses, bacteria and microbes and exchange them with each other freely. my health is not dependent on your health. you cannot spread anything unless you are ill. this is what i do not understand. this information has come across in the wrong way. it is not correct. it is not correct and by the way, you talk about religion, people like the jewish people, they have always never gotten vaccines. they do not believe in that. they believe in their natural bodies which, by the way, the vaccine only offers a picture of what it may come across in the future. your immune system fights it. host: just on the jewish religion, i think you are talking about specific aspects

and not the jewish religion at large. from your perspective, what kind of job do you do? where do you work? caller: i don't really want to say because i think this is gotten really weird. it is almost purposely destroying workplaces and destroying jobs. companies in places like hospitals where they need nurses, they would purposely get rid of them based on the vaccine? did they ever make them get the flu vaccine? did they ever make them get the rsd vaccine? host: if employers made them get those in the past, would you say it is ok to do it with the covid vaccine? caller: absolutely not because an employer is not your doctor. he is not the one that dictates your health. i could've sworn that. i swear it is between you and your doctor. it has become that everybody is the doctor police. i have to make sure i tell people i am healthy before i operate in society? this is insanity. you live on planet earth.

there are plenty of things that can kill you. the gentleman who is 95 is scared. what is he scared of? he could go get hit by a car. host: that is sarah in michigan. the nbc news wrap up of companies with vaccine mandates has been announced. it is an ongoing list. here are some examples of how it is working in different companies around the country. cvs health said august 23 it is requiring patients and corporate employees to get the shop by october 31 and new hires by september 15. all those health care giants asking pharmacists to be fully vaccinated november 30. it did not mention the same for retail associates adding other roles are under review and may be added based on updated data. here is delta airlines. they announced back in may it would require all new u.s.

hires to be vaccinated. this is an important move to protect delta's people and customers. as it accelerates to the recovery into the future one other company, doordash, all corporate employees not required to come back until january. those who voluntarily do come back before then must show proof of vaccination according to the company. just a few examples of how different companies are dealing with this. we want to hear your stories from your experiences, especially employers and employees. mark is an employee in lily, kentucky. good morning. caller: good morning. it has not directly affected me but i know those who have had it impacted them. i work in the small atmosphere

of a law office in a small town. the secretaries have worked there for 20 plus years that left poor were fired because of this. just the idea of a vaccine mandate, you are creating a two tier society. they say this is segregation of people. i do not see how anyone can support segregation in this life. martin luther king said, he did not say, he helped his girls would be judged one day by the color of their skin but the content of their vaccine passport. he wanted them judged by the content of their character. if your freedom is contingent upon receiving a pharmaceutical product, you are not talking about what your freedom is. one more thing, one third of people they estimated in the

u.s. who have had covid by the end of 2020. that is an established fact. there is a harvard study that has been released that proved the extent of natural immunity being superior to the immunity offered by the vaccine. we already have 100 million people who have a naturally superior immunity to these vaccines. have are we talking about vaccine mandates? how is this a saying society -- sane society? this is madness. host: dennis in kingsport, tennessee, employer. what kind of business are you in? caller: i am in the plumbing business. i get to see a lot of people and a lot of them have got vaccinations, a lot of them don't, but we keep our distance from each other just to protect each other. you know, these people who are

vaccinated can still carry it and give it to somebody else. then they turn around and they get sick. well, i just had four family members get sick and all they did was sad at home and quarantine for 10 days. if this was so bad, why are we turning around and, you know, sending these people back home? host: the numbers right now, some 644,000 americans have died of covid. the official case count close to 40 million at that point. those numbers are taking up in recent days. those numbers from the cdc's official data. how many employees do you have in your plumbing business? caller: i had three because i

refused to get big and not be able to treat customers right. host: what sort of rules do you have for your employees when it comes to dealing with covid? d require them to have masks on when they go into houses? caller: no, just wear gloves and use common sense. i had a heart attack recently. i had three doctors tell me not to get the vaccine because of my immune system. some of the drugs i take, i have bad reactions. i almost died twice. just from the medication so i have immune system that fights this. if they put that vaccine in me, i could have a bad reaction and that could result in a bad situation for me because of my immune system.

host: do you get the flu vaccine each year? caller: no. nope and i never get the flu. i get colds but never the flu. my wife done that once and she got double pneumonia and she never had pneumonia. once she got it she got double pneumonia because her immune system was fighting it and it turned worse. host: that was dennis in kingsport, tennessee. asking you about the idea of employer vaccine mandates. the phone lines, employers (202)-748-8000, employees (202)-748-8001, and all others (202)-748-8002. it was earlier this week at the white house press briefing that press secretary jen psaki was

asked about vaccine mandates and she called it one of the biggest reasons why the u.s. has seen the first time vaccination rates jump in the past month. here is what she had to say. [video clip] >> the white house has been seeing good numbers on vaccination rates. the other day there were 4 million more shots in august compared to july. what do the white house think is driving that and is there something the federal government is doing to see that difference from july to august? >> there was a bunch of different data and some is in your polling, frankly. i can't break it down for you but what we have seen consistently are mandates put in place by companies, private sector and others, fear of delta which is understandable. people are seeing horrifying stories on local news, national news, of young people, in some

cases children, being hospitalized and that is scaring people. we hate for that to be the scenario but that is certainly, we believe, prompting more to get vaccinated. it is possible the fda final approval has prompted more people to get vaccinated but i do not have an exact breakdown. certainly we have seen those as the three biggest factors. host: jen psaki from the white house last week. asking you this morning, do you support employer vaccine mandates? johnny out of boston, you are next. good morning. caller: good morning morning, john. interesting subject. i have a few views on this. i am retired but was involved for 30 years with my company. i have gotten vaccinated and i have a compromised immune system. my personal opinion was the science is there and if we go back to, say, even with flu

shots, i used to get the shot every year, every year before i came down with this disease i have. once i got this disease, which was an arthritis type of thing, i started getting the flu shot and i have not had the flu since in that is over 20 years. that is one .2. i think in our country what we are doing -- one point. i think our country what we are doing is we cannot compromise. i dealt with my employer for many years as an officer in my union. the compromise is so important and i will give you an example. i would say to my employees, do the math on the people that have died from this, ok? just do the math and the people

even who had gotten the shot had serious complications. that is to protect yourself with science. you gather them together, whether it is 10 employees or 110, you gather them together and say, the compromise is this -- we respect your opinion to not getting the vaccination and if you do not want to get the vaccination, we are going to test you at least once or twice a week to protect you and protect our employees, protect everybody. what is so hard about that? we don't want to lose any of our freedom. what we want -- host: don't you think those folks who have to go get a test every week feel like they are losing their freedom with the weekly time they have to spend

getting a test and then showing that proof? caller: well, there has to be some kind of compromise and if they couldn't understand that, then they have to pay the consequences whether it is going to be discharged or suspended or whatever. but there is a compromise and that is what people have to do. now, when we first got into this mess everyone was saying, from the president on down, get tested. what is so hard about getting tested? host: thank you for the call. diane next in ann arbor, michigan. caller: good morning. i am, frankly, getting tired of hearing freedom, freedom, freedom. when they say that it is the freedom to infect our hospitals, freedom to infect our schools, the freedom to infect our workplaces.

how does that work? and, you want to add up the cost of all this freedoms the people are taking to become sick and fill our icus, fill our emergency rooms, and frankly, there are people with vaccine to cannot get into the hospital for surgery is that they need, for treatment for cancer that they need. just something like having -- needing surgery -- it is not the pancreas -- appendicitis. people cannot even get into the emergency room because they have an appendicitis attack and they need surgery. quite frankly, i think if you do not get vaccinated, ok. but you get into a field hospital. they sidelined you so people who are vaccinated who need

emergency treatment can get a bed in the hospital that is not used by someone who used poor judgment and got sick. host: on the idea of freedom, one of the groups that often talks about this issue of freedom, the american civil liberties union, their legal director and director of the program on freedom of religion and belief, david cole and daniel mauch, wrote for the new york times. we are not shy of defending civil liberties even if they are not popular. while the permissibility of requiring vaccines for a particular disease depend on several factors, when it comes to covid-19, all considerations point in the same direction. the disease is highly

transmissible, serious and often lethal. the vaccines are safe and effective and crucially, there is no equally effective alternative treatment to protect the public health. in fact, far from compromising civil liberties vaccine mandates further civil liberties. they protect the most vulnerable among us, including people with disabilities and fragile immune systems, children too young to be vaccinated, and communities of color hit hard by the disease. that piece goes on from there if you would like to read it in the new york times. here is lisa out of maine. you are next on the line for employees. go ahead. caller: hello? host: go ahead, lisa. caller: hi. thank you for taking my call. i just want to say, what i hear a lot of today is a lot of me and i. there is no more we. it is all about one person

nowadays and nobody cares about the other person. you had a collar on and asked her what her profession was and she did not answer. i did catch that when she was talking she identified herself as a nurse. i was also a nurse. i understand that polio was a virus but we no longer have polio. sure, polio is out there but we get shots for them so we do not get them. all these nurses -- imb will i am bewildered. all i am hearing is i and me. a lot of these people are talking about their freedoms and how they don't want to get the shot because it is mandated and

somebody is telling me to do it. well, what was my point -- sorry, i am kind of nervous. host: that is ok, lisa. i think you made your point. 25 minutes left in this segment of the washington journal as we take calls from employers and employees on this question of, do you support vaccine mandates? we have also been looking for comments on social media. learnen rights, i working grocery retail. if customers come in unvaccinated, we cannot even get them to wear our mask. it is becoming so ridiculous. mlb writing if a company allows employees to ignore company policy, why not ignore all of them? pinkeye? no problem. come to work in ever but he else will deal with your decision. these people do not even make nonsense.

stephen pennsylvania is next. caller: thank you for taking my call. my wife and i are in our 70's and we have taken the shots. i go shopping myself and i wear my mask anyway but i believe this thing is very serious, very troubling to a lot of people. if american government was really concerned, republican and democrat, close the border down. a lot of people are coming across and have had the virus. they should close that down for six months and everybody coming from one country to the other should be stopped for six months. get this thing under control first. a couple of weeks ago nancy pelosi -- i think she was in california or somewhere -- at a big democratic rally. hundreds and hundreds of people

there and none of them, including herself, wore a mask. host: on closing the borders down, do you think people should be allowed to travel outside the united states or visitors come to the united states for tourism? would you stop that as well? caller: i understand the question. no flying or anything like that for six months. have it under control the best you can. i took mine voluntarily and so did my wife because i am concerned some people in our government, because of who they may be, will take our freedoms away for dealing with security. if they really care, stop the traffic going across the borders and even canada. and also the air travel. host: on your travel restrictions, are you concerned people would express that the

government would be restricting their freedom of movement or travel to see family? caller: you can take a vacation in the united states. there are many things in the united states i'm sure people have not seen. host: but what if they have family in another country? caller: what's that? host: what if people have family in another country they want to see? caller: well, the way they have got things now you can skype and do different things, etc. and so on. they can do that. i can't do that but i am concerned if this continues, and i think it will for years because something else will be coming behind, we are never going to get out of this thing without doing what i said. like i said, i wear my mascara

mask every store i go to. host: next out of illinois. caller: i am an employer and i just have people wear our mask. i have an autoimmune disease and i just wear our mask. even coming into my house they have to wear a mask. host: what kind of business is it? caller: i am a farmer and i have to have people work for me because i own land. anybody that comes on my farm or works for me, because i have an autoimmune disease, i just wear our mask. host: do they wear the mask inside and outside? caller: if you are away from people outside far enough, they do not have to wear the mask. but if they come up to me real close, i make them wear the mask or if they come in my house because i have autoimmune

disease, i tell them they have to wear the mask. i cannot take the vaccine because i have an autoimmune disease and that is why i make them wear the mask. i don't believe anybody should be forcing anybody to take this vaccine because, in the long run, who knows what side effects could come out of this in the long run. it has not been tested that long. what happens if employees took this vaccine and they lost health over this? host: that was leo in illinois. fairbanks, alaska, gail, good morning. caller: good morning. i am a retired individual so i do not have to interact with people at a large capacity. just when i go shopping and i'm out of town. i will wear my mask if required.

i am not a proponent for forced vaccination. i think one of the suggestions a former caller made was a nice compromise and that is if you do not take the vaccine, you would be required to be tested on a weekly basis or what have you to maintain your status as a healthy person. another point i wanted to bring up was we talk about the statistics when it comes to the number of deaths in the u.s. a lot of people don't realize within that 600,000 deaths that we unfortunately experienced here in the u.s., it was really 5% of that total that actually died of covid. the others died with covid but the 95% had either three or four

of the additional health problems. host: where'd you get your numbers on that because i am using the cdc numbers? caller: the cdc and who, world health. host: the cdc number, total debts, covid, 600,848. caller: and 5% of that number were just covid deaths. host: where did you get that information? caller: from the cdc. they had comorbidities remaining numbers. of course, they died, they had covid, but they had these pre-existing conditions that were part of what made them die not just straight covid. you know, you really do not know what made them die. was at the heart problem they

had are the covid? host: that was gail in alaska. this is max in ohio. good morning. caller: good morning. i am not an employee but i told the lady that i talked to my daughter two weeks ago who works at a hospital in texas. my daughter is 50 plus years old and works at a hospital in texas. i do not know her title but she has her own office. only 38% have shots and she is upset about it. she said, in houston, texas hospital they fired approximately 150 and it went to court and they found it was legal to fire them. i said, why don't they do the same at the hospital you work? they said, they don't have the employees to replace them. my daughter started out in the

army. anyway, i will not tell you what hospital but she is 300 miles from houston. host: thank you for sharing her story. mark on facebook says, he supports vaccine mandates for medical workers and first responders only. boomersaurus say, if you run a company, have a healthy workforce. private corporations is known different from mandating dress code. jeremy says, they have the right to do what they feel they need to do in order to protect the company and the brand. tabatha out of las vegas, good morning. you are next. caller: good morning. i would like to say i was having my blood taken at my local doctor's office and the woman

said she did not believe in vaccines and she was breathing in my face and had covid a couple of weeks before. i was not very happy and i decided i am choosing another doctor. [laughs] host: these vaccine mandates have these consequences is what you are saying? caller: absolutely. if you are a nurse and you do not believe in science, you have no business being a nurse. host: tabatha in nevada. this is dan in georgetown, massachusetts. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for having me on. yeah, i want to say one thing. these people talking about believe the science. where you getting the science from and where you getting the numbers from? it is ridiculous. john, do you know that this so-called vaccine is gene therapy.

the fda came up with a new definition for vaccines so they could say that these so-called vaccines are vaccines. host: the mrna? caller: excuse me? host: you're talking about the mrna vaccines? pfizer and moderna? caller: yes, it is gene therapy. you are familiar with what is going on in america. things are getting redefined left and right to make it sound like it is palatable. host: dan, do you think employers should define a condition of employment as getting a shot, getting a covid shot? caller: i think there needs to be more information about what is actually happening, john. likes several callers have already said, natural

immunity is much stronger. this is coming out now. it came out in israel, it is coming out in harvard. host: and that was the point was made in the news conference. he did not think they took into account the natural immunity people have already had. caller: that's right. do you know what that makes it look like to the population of people that are actually paying attention? oh, you cut me off? host: i did not cut you off. caller: i'm sorry. just think all these people who got covid, i know several who got covid early, and they ultimately fought getting the vaccine and their employers put so much pressure on them, well, your antibody counts are low now. you know what? your antibodies are only there

for a certain amount of time and then from your antibodies the information for how to make those antibodies gets stored in your bone marrow. host: i will take your point on the number of employees -- employers, that are mandating vaccines. that number likely to go up in the months to come. we talked about the polling already. here is one more, the reuters story from last week, more than half of u.s. companies are planning to impose covid 19 mandates in their workplace by the end of the year with almost a quarter considering vaccination as a condition of employment. that national survey of nearly 1000 employers, 961 u.s. companies that employed together 9.7 million people in the fourth quarter of 2021, over 52% of employers could have one or more vaccine mandate requirements. that is an increase from the 21% currently.

that reuters reported. william is next out of maine. an employer, good morning. caller: my name is william. i am from lewiston and i volunteer at a men's halfway house. as of october 1 i can no longer volunteer there, doing it for 15 years, and the mandate was that everybody works or volunteers needs to be vaccinated. my doctor recommended after i got covid that i did not get vaccinated for six months after having symptoms. and i still have about four months left to go. i am not included in that stat. i have been doing a lot of research on natural immunity

but i don't feel as if natural immunity is being considered in any of the stats i am hearing. i don't know how i can take it seriously when that is the case and i want to know, when i'm hearing over 90% of those hospitalized are people who are unvaccinated, i am not hearing how many are hospitalized had infections. how many are being hospitalized for reinfection? i'm looking to get the booster shot only because that is the information i am getting that maybe that would be the only thing i would need rather than getting two shots and then a booster later on. host: is that something your doctor talk to you about? caller: yes, yes. i am healthy and he said, you

should wait six months before getting vaccinated. not the booster shot. more data has come out since i got covid on natural immunity and it is hard to find but my question is, how many people who are being hospitalized, the over 90% hospitalized, how many of those are reinfections of covid? host: that was william in maine. this is danny in atlanta, georgia on the line for employers. what kind of business? caller: i told my contractors if you do not want to get vaccinated, i do not want you around me and my wife works with me. i do not want you around my wife. but i am astounded. you talk about disinformation on facebook and youtube and everywhere else. just listening to you this morning in the past couple of mornings, i have heard more lies and disinformation coming right

through my television from c-span. john, you know what these people said are wrong. people know that. this is just more disinformation. all these people calling up and none have a medical degree. one of the biggest disinformation outlets is fox news but all those hosts -- headquarters has instituted the policy if you have not been vaccinated, you cannot come into the office. the same people who preach, i am crying on the inside about the disinformation coming from c-span. these people, none of them have medical degrees. they all want to quote the cdc. this is craziness. this is silliness. host: danny, what we try to do

and have been doing often throughout this pandemic is try to bring on medical professionals, people with medical degrees and we are doing it today at 9:00. lori tremmel freeman of the national association of county and city health officials coming on to talk about their role and we let people ask their questions and express their concerns so she can respond and other medical professionals can respond. caller: i just want to respond to that, john. i am not saying that you don't wrangle medical experts which you absolutely do. they get out the correct information. what i am talking about is the people calling on c-span, especially this morning. john, if i were to call up -- and this is just an example -- and say, john, you are a bank robber. there are two truths.

either this is a lifesaving vaccine or it is not. either these people who are sitting here -- do they have a medical degree? the disinformation is coming from your callers. host: i get what you're saying. we also are not requiring anybody who calls and have a medical degree. caller: i understand that. host: we are letting people express their concerns, ask their questions, and what we do each day is let americans talk to each other and express their concerns so we can learn more about where people are, especially right now in the midst of a pandemic. do you not find that helpful? caller: no, no, no. you can call up all day long. either the person is a bank rubber or not.

host: i got your point. to be clear, i'm not a bank robber just to let you in on that. i appreciate the concern and it is something we deal with everyday but appreciate your call. that was danny. this is rodney in plainfield, indiana, employee. good morning. caller: good morning, john. i used to be an employee, my wife is still an employee and she works for a hospital. she has been in the midst of all this covid since the beginning. she has been there 14 years. right now her floor is with covid patients and she wears the mask. she had to get vaccinated or lose her job. she has a rare eye disease and i was really worried about her getting this vaccine because she

has to get injections in her eyes every so often to stop the bleeding. long story short, she wears her mask everyday, she is vaccinated, i am not. i wear my mask -- she makes me where my mask when we go out to shop or we are in public. i have been healthy, always been healthy, but when i get sick, i get sick and i am a flu bug attraction you might call it. before i retired these guys at work, they would come in so sick and spread it to everyone, the flu. of course, i always got it but man, when i get it it puts me in bed for two days. host: were you in favor of getting the flu vaccine when you were in the workforce? is that something you wanted your fellow coworkers to get,

especially considering how susceptible you are? caller: no, john. i never even considered getting the flu vaccine. as bad as i get it i am afraid to death to get it. host: that was rodney in indiana. lynn in arizona, you are next. caller: thank you for taking my call. i am concerned, john. i am hearing people call in, i know they are afraid. my sister has a terrible autoimmune disorder. she just worked in coronation with her doctor and when she went to go get her vaccine they observed her in the office while it was happening so if there was any reaction, she could be attended to medically. she handled it fine. you know, i did not realize either about the importance of protecting people with autoimmune disorders until my husband, who had a kidney transplant, had to have his

immune system suppressed and that is the first time i got the flu vaccine. i thought, if i get this vaccine, i'm going to get the flu. it was really just my own ignorance. it took me having to protect my husband's health because they were like, listen, if he gets the flu, he has no immune system. that is when i started getting the flu shot and ever since then i have never had the flu. i did not want to get it anyway, but i think if you are concerned about getting the vaccine because you have an autoimmune disorder or health problem, do not assume. go to your doctor, talk about it, and this natural immunity, i came to florida before this blow up and everybody was going on. i came back and this thing exploded after the fourth of july. florida is a mess. the problem with natural

immunity is, how many have to die to get natural immunity? the point is we are trying to save lives. little frustrated. i think a lot of people are speaking on their own fears and they are not really making the decisions in conjunction with her doctor. you are the one if you have the autoimmune disease to get the vaccine. you are the one at risk and the risk is death from covid. host: thank you for the call from arizona. couple of minutes left and several callers left. hunter in new jersey. what job are you in? caller: health care. host: what is the status of vaccines? caller: in new jersey they are moving toward every employer moving toward vaccination. some people are saying things are just incorrect. the comorbidity think? almost everybody has

comorbidities but you are not dying from it. you are dying from covid. same thing if you get hit by a car and you have diabetes. you have died by getting hit by the car but you still have the comorbidities. those of the people with high risk and covid is killing them. second thing, the reason why people are concerned about getting the vaccine is because their body does not necessarily create antibodies. that is the issue. that is the majority issue. talk with your physician. but for the most part, people can get the vaccine. if you have had covid, there is no exact guidelines. there is a rough rule of 90 days but the issue is you want to get tested to see what your level of antibodies are. if they are low, get the vaccine and you will be fine. if that is what is needed, not this silly science or pseudoscience.

get the vaccine, it saves lives. 95% effective in saves lives. there is no reason for this nonsense. host: north carolina, good morning. caller: good morning, john. host: what is your comment? caller: everybody is talking about submitting to the vaccine. you've got to submit, or you don't have a job. you're not going to be able to feed your family, you are not going to be able to house your family. where do you think this is going to go? people are going to take to the sword, i'm sorry to say. if you deny people feeding their families, you are going to have a big problem. host: it is an employer vaccine mandate and you don't want to get it. can't you go find another job, another private employer? caller: if everybody's going to mandated, where are you going to

get a job? the united states is not the only country doing this. if you look, you've got anti-vaccine rallies going on in germany, france, great britain, the netherlands, all over the world. it's not just stupid republicans or stupid people from the south that's not doing this. everybody in the world is against this vaccine. host: north carolina, last caller in this first segment of washington journal. plenty more to talk about this labor day weekend including the topic of unions and the future of organized labor in the u.s. we will be joined next by mark max for the center of american progress. and later, county and city health official co will join us to discuss the role of public health officials in vaccine booster rollouts. stick around, we will be right back.

announcer: today on c-span, a congressional hearing on workers rights at 1:00 p.m. with business experts testifying before the senate banking committee, on the opportunities the economy provides and government's role in protecting those that fall behind. as we approach the 20th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, watch as author and scholars testify before the house homeland security committee on the causes, responses and consequences of the attacks. watch today on c-span, online at c-span.org, or listen on the c-span radio app. ♪ [solemn music] announcer: this year marks the

20th anniversary of the september 11 attacks.join us for live coverage from new york, the pentagon and shanksville, pennsylvania starting at 7:00 p.m. eastern on saturday, on c-span. watch online at c-span.org, or listen on the c-span radio app. ♪ >> theodore gilmore bilbo was an american politician who twice served as governor of mississippi, once in 1916 for four years and from 1928-1932. later, he was elected a u.s. senator in 1935, was reelected, but died in 1947 in his third term. he was 69, a democrat, an outspoken white supremacist and a strong supporter of fdr's progressive new deal. we asked dr. morgan, a retired

professor of history at the university of southern mississippi, to give us background on theodore bilbo and's impact on politics in the fdr era. professor morgan is the author of "redneck liberal, theodore bilbo and the new deal." announcer: author and history professor chester morgan on this episode of book notes plus. listen at c-span.org/podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. announcer: c-span shop.org is c-span's online store with a collection of products. your purchase will support our nonprofit operations and you still have time to order the congressional directory, contact information for members of congress and the biden administration. go to c-spanshop.org. "washington journal" continues.

rsation on the state of unions in this country. joining us once again for a discussion about unions, mark is the president of the national legal defense foundation and david as well joining us, center for american progress, author of the recently released book "green union: how board labor reforms can repair, revitalize, and reunite united states." i want to start with the raw numbers on union membership in the united states. we are going to show viewers union membership in 2020. about 40 million americans, 11% of the working public. 7 million of them in public sector unions, 7 million of them in private sector unions. on those numbers, is that a healthy amount? is that a good number for union membership in the united states? guest: not particularly good.

there is a share of the workforce that has been declining for the past several decades. if you go back to the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's, we have up to about one third of workers in the workforce part of labor unions. but as policies have changed and employers have become more hostile, workers have not been able to join unions. it is especially problematic because polls show about half of all workers say they would like to join a union. membership is very different than what people say they would like to achieve in my mind. host: some of the things that dave talks about, 1983, 18 million americans were members of unions. at that time, 20% of the u.s. workforce, that compares to 40 million today. 11% of the workforce. your thoughts on those numbers?

guest: one of the interesting facts about the numbers as we have more public sector union members in this country than private-sector union members. the growth for unions has been in government. i think we seen some results of that increase both in power of union officials when it comes to government and government activities. the idea that no one can join a union is just not correct. one of the things that we talk about all the time is that somehow employers are just the worst type of employer and they need to be unionized. if we extrapolate based on public sector union members being the largest in the country, one can surmise that the most people employer in america is government because obviously they are at 36, 30 7% in the government sector. most of that comes with government privilege. they passed laws that say the union will be the monopoly. and so the model for unions, what they ought to do is go back to that speech from 1924 in el

paso, texas and a here to the institutional, voluntary unionism. he knew that when workers come together voluntarily, it is inherently stronger and better for workers than one that is cobbled together through compulsion articulated in federal law and state law. host: we are going to be talking about some of the laws that have been proposed that would impact union membership in the country. as we have this conversation on this labor day, here is how we split up the phone lines. (202) 748-8000 if you are a member of a union. all others, (202) 748-8001. mark mix and david matalin. mark, explain what your organization is, what you do, and is your group antiunion? guest: know, john, we believe that every worker should have the right to join a union, but we believe that no worker should be compelled to support a union which they disagree with for

whatever reason, whether it be ideological or political. they should be able to choose whether or not they want to financially support a labor union. the foundation has been around since 1968. all we do is represent employees that have had their rights violated by forced unionism schemes. what we do is we sue unions, we sue reporters when they violate workers rights. we try to help them recognize their rights under section seven, the right to associate, the right to bargain, and the right to refrain. we have 21 staff attorneys and with into the supreme court 18 times on behalf of workers. every one of those cases has been defending an individual workers rights. host: what does it mean to be eight right to work state? guest: a right to work state is one of 27 states that have passed laws. workers can decide for themselves whether or not to financially support a labor union. a worker cannot be fired because they decide that they want to keep the money in their pocket

and not give it to a labor union. that is it, that is the complexity of the right to work law. host: david, why are the majority of states in this country, 27 states, right to work states? guest: first, the idea of what a union and a right to work are, let me clarify a few misconceptions. first, you can never be forced to join a union. you can when a union negotiates with an employer, that union can compel you in certain cases to pay the cost of representation for that collective bargaining agreement, so if you are not paying union dues, you can pay the fair share fees. but you never have to pay union dues. sadly, i think right to work,

its history is really that a number of southern states in the 40's and 50's passed laws to weaken labor unions and prevent black-and-white workers from joining together because they didn't want that to happen. in recent times in the past couple of years, there has been a handful of other states that have passed right to work laws. they are typically republican seeking power because they know that if they can weaken their political opponents, they can enact their agenda with fewer constraints. in my view, it is a really bad political situation where opponents of workers and opponents of unions seek to really undermine the capacity of workers to have any voice. host: remind viewers what a ruling did in 2018? guest: this was a supreme court

decision that effectively made the public sector right to work so that public sector workers do not have to pay any cost to unions if they don't want to, even though the union is doing work on their behalf and has to negotiate a contract that raises better wages and standards. that is one piece of a recent series of court decisions and policy changes that have made it harder for unions to be able to financially support themselves and weaken their ability to represent workers. host: mark, especially at a time in 2020 when 35%, as we said, of government workers belong to the union. guest: the decision was litigated by attorneys at the national right to work foundation all the way up to the supreme court and it was a great

victory for public sector workers across the nation. nothing stops a worker from paying fees to a union if they choose to do so. it simply makes it voluntary. the decision was interesting because what the majority of the court said was that everything that government unions do is political by nature because they are trying to affect the terms and conditions of how the government operates. so when you talk about political activity, you basically get to the first amendment. and they decided a first amendment, constitutional protection for government workers across the entire land in america says that if you want to join a union, you can do it, but you can't be compelled to pay a fee to a private organization for the privilege of working for your government. and it has really been something that union officials have talked about a lot. they have said we have got out and talk to our workers and they are joining because the union is telling them what they can do for them, and that is the way it should be. the other part of the decision was that no money can be taken from a worker unless they

affirmatively waive their first amendment rights. workers have to opt into the fees and the union and the representation. getting back to david's point about joining a union, the idea was 1935 to 1953, you could be fourth to join a union. it wasn't until 1963 when the supreme court said the idea that we've forced someone to become a formal member of a private organization is a bit too far. and so they rolled back that compulsion to join the union. but they did say you could be forced to pay up to 100% of dues and keep your job in a workplace. host: three years after, the democratic congress is working its way through the proactive. what with the pro act do? guest: the first is it would raise penalties when larger unions violate workplace laws,

violate the rights of workers trying to form a union. for example, right now, if an employer illegally fires a worker for trying to join a union, there are no financial penalties. therefore there is not much of a disincentive for employers for breaking the law. first, it would create actual, financial penalties. the second thing it would do is it would kind of expand rights including limiting right to work, limiting the ability of employers to classify employees as independent contractors with no bargaining rights and forcing them into force arbitration agreements where they don't have the basic rights that workers can and should have which includes the selection process for droning a union so that, for example, you wouldn't be forced into meetings with your boss in the same coercive way that you can be.

really, it helps right the balance that makes it fair and easier to join a union because, as i mentioned at the beginning, those are basic discrepancies that about half of the public would like to join a union. but far fewer are able to do so because the law does not prevent employers from crossing the line and making it a coercive process to prevent workers from exercising their basic rights. host: protecting the right to organize act of 2021. the democrat of virginia. it passed the house back in march, waiting for action in the senate. if it were passed in the senate and signed into law, what would it do? guest: it would eliminate the 27 right to work laws across the country that have been passed by constitutional amendment or referendum. the federal government would basically once again impose the

compulsory regime that was created during the roosevelt years in 1935 to say that no state could free workers from being forced to pay dues to keep a job. those 27 state right to work laws would be wiped out immediately by joe biden signing the act which he has promised to do. the other thing it would do, penalties for an employer that punishes a worker for union organizing. section seven in the national labor rights act are something they take pretty seriously. while there may not be penalties for employers, there is certainly back paperworkers. the idea that there's no penalties is really not quite true. what they are talking about here is a 50,000 other first-time fine on small businesses if there's allegations of an unfair labor practice charge. what they want us to take them completely out of the equation. i think an employer and

employees ought to have conversations about what happens in a unionized situation. nothing stops workers from trying to organize a workplace. there is a process for that. everyone knows what it is. the union just can't get over the fact that they need to compel people. if you go back to this problem that unions have, it is because they are using government power to grow their ranks. while data says 60% of people would like to join a union, if you look at the polls when we talk about forcing them, eight out of 10 americans believe it is wrong to pay a fee to a union for the right to work. even union households have that view. host: sounds like you want to respond. guest: on the idea of where the public is on these questions, the state of missouri had a ballot initiative, about the only really direct vote on the

idea of whether workers want right to work or not. and in missouri, in 2018, by a 2-1 margin, the voters said they don't want right to work. whenever they are given a chance , they wanted public sector bargaining rights. when voters are given a chance, just yesterday or the day before, a poll came out and said the highest support for unions that there has been in many decades, two thirds of workers support unions. two thirds support for anything is a very high and unlikely in our current divided environment. two thirds of workers support them. when workers get a chance to have a voice in our democracy, they say they want to support unions, they want workers to

have the ability. unfortunately, politicians are seeking to carry out their own agenda to undermine workers and are really undermining our democracy in the process. host: plenty of calls already for you gentlemen. ralph is up first on that line for union members out of new york. (202) 748-8000 i am a worker from upstate new york. i want to correct mr. mix when he is talking about the numbers. back in gompers here there was the close shop. he didn't support no volunteer shop. what he was speaking of is the american federation of labor for volunteers and for affiliates like the international unions to join. anyways, the history of the right to work laws, originally, when workers organized the unions and they wrote the first collective bargaining agreement, they had to take a separate goal.

whether or not to have a union under security briefings. over 90% shows the union shop. that part of the national labor relations deck was repealed around 1951. they did not have to take a separate vote. today, workers organize the unions, right to work laws restrict the right for them to bargain for various forms of union security agreements. it is the state legislatures and the governors the take away the choice of workers, not the workers themselves. host: questions directed to you. guest: thanks for the history, it is good that he is up to speed. the speech was predicated -- i'm not going to argue with him on what his intentions were, but one of the things that was happening was they were interested in going to government for their power. shortly after that speech in 1924, the railway labor act was passed.

it had exclusive monopoly representation in the federal government said that railroad employees can be compelled to associate with a labor union. there is a little more history than that. i've read gompers speech, his late spee -- last speech that.he gave his support of voluntarism --i don't believe he would have said you must join a union, must pay dues to a union if you want to work in america. i don't think that context is in that speech. he talked about how important that is as a principal. host: labor day, and good data talk about samuel gompers. daniel gompers, the first president of the american federation of labor and advocate of making labor day a national celebration, lifted up freedom and a commentary on the holiday back in 1910. "the struggle of labor is to free the man from his own

weakness, from his own unfair, unjust, and unnecessarily cruel environment and to bring forward the day of deliverance from absurd economic conditions and cruel burdens. guest: he had the idea of positive freedom. that in order to be free, you needed to be able to come together as part of a union so you could negotiate on relatively equal footing with your employer. without that ability, the employer unilaterally sets conditions, can pay poverty wages, force you to work constantly, all the time, no overtime, no weekends, no safe working conditions. and so the idea that unions really are essential to having a free society is at the core with gompers. when you think about what unions do, not only do you negotiate

together for higher wages, better benefits, the ability to have a safe workplace, the ability to even have some interest in your worksite so that you can have some voice that your employer is going to listen to, and not be fired. this is really a better interpretation of freedom than the idea that freedom is whatever the employer says or wants at that moment. unilateral freedom for the employer is the definition of freedom. i stand, -- instead, i think it is workers having some ability to have a right to dignity themselves. host: west virginia, good morning. caller: good morning, thank you for taking my call. my question is really related to the future of labor unions. is there dialogue between manufacturing unions, public-sector unions, and other in like, the sports industry or entertainment in general?

to me, it seems like the unions in those industries have a lot more success and have lesser challenges than some of the public-sector unions and manufacturing unions. guest: certainly. unions get stuck all the time. as the caller knows, union density in some sectors is significantly higher than others. some unions have more success. but the core problem is that basically every single industry over the past 30 years, union density has declined. there's not a single union that has dramatically increased density in their sector over many decades. and so that's why unions have come together to support the program. they feel it is essential that

all workers have some basic rights and are able to join the union. that is one of the things that will certainly come together in discussing a range of other policies that workers want and need to have representation. and we can talk about those are things like promoting more employment, like the build back better agenda, which makes significant adjustments -- investments in roads and bridges as well as health care and childcare so that there are more jobs. and then the government spending that helps create those jobs ensures that those are good jobs. the number of policies that i think the labor movement have been pushing for at the core, young workers have some basic rights. host: it was last week at one of the christian science monitor's morning breakfasts with newsmakers that the new afl-cio

president spoke of union support . this is what she had to say. . >> absolutely. the proactive is a top agenda -- pro act as a top agenda item for the labor movement. as i've said before, the challenges that workers face in trying to form a union, they are harassed, intimidated, and therefore you can't get more workers to come together collectively and raise their standards on the job. we are never going to get to a place in this economy where we are having a rising tide of higher wages and better benefits for all working people. and so the pro act, yes, has faced some challenges in terms of the senate rules. they are arcane rules, they need to be changed because they are preventing progress, preventing an agenda from passing. the proactive, voting rights, infrastructure, those are the three big ones that i keep thinking about because i think they will make the most difference for working people.

but we are not just fighting this battle in washington, d.c. and it is not just about rules. we are going to keep pushing and holding those senators' feet to the fire, but we are also going to fight this out in the field and mobilize folks on the ground because workers aren't waiting for a bill to pass. they are continuing to push forward and there's examples of workers organizing all over the country. there's examples of strikes that are happening all over the country because workers have had enough. they are fed up with the system that is broken. and elected officials, if they are not listening, that is when elections end up having consequences, right? host: that is from tuesday at the christian science monitor newsmakers breakfast. guest: i'm kind of intrigued by it. the idea that the pro act would give union officials dramatic

new powers over individual workers like the ability to keep a job in the states that currently have right to work laws. moving toward a regime where the secret ballot election gets pushed aside for a course event intimidating way of getting workers to sign cards. you've got to get 75% of the workers to even have a chance to win an election when they go behind the curtain. the coercive intimidation is one of the things that we help workers with. you hear someone say someone shows up on my porch at 10:00 at night. most of the time, even the afl-cio says workers will just sign the card to get you off their back. the penalties for small business people, secondary boycotts, they are going to legalize secondary boycotts were union protesters and militants can protest customers of the targeted unionized company where they are trying to unionize their workers

so you can shut down the power to a bakery in order to get the baker to say yes, i will agree to card check unionization or certification of the union or whatever it is the union wants to demand of him. as david mentioned, the idea of changing the definition of independent contractors. this is targetinguber -- this is targeting uber and lyft contractors. the only way they can be unionized as if they are employees. unfortunately, just the other day, two weeks ago, the california supreme court overturned the referendum. a popular vote by the people who said they wanted a reform. the gig economy limiting legislation that california passed. and she talks about the work that her people are out there doing. they are exercising their rights. but the one thing they want is

more power to force more workers to join unions. host: in a lot of union members calling in this morning. james is one out of north carolina. (202) 748-8000 good morning -- guest: good morning, john. mark, i am a truck driver. i drive for five years. i'm not getting a dime from them. i drove for them for 24 years and i am now sitting back in my chair enjoying myself. my wife is in dialysis this morning. i'm sitting in my chair relaxing right now. host: what was the best thing

your union did for you? caller: beg your pardon? host: what was the best thing during a union did for you? caller: i'm sitting back in my chair right now. i'm sitting in my chair right now and i'm collecting. my wife is a dialysis right now. host: mark. guest: i think james has had -- called before. i don't have two left feet, but i use my left foot more than my right foot. look. james is happy with the union representation he got, he is happy with the benefits he got. no one can take away his right to be part of the union if he chooses to do so. but there are other workers who don't have the same feeling about being forced to associate with a private organization and beyond that, paying dues or fees to better keep the job. we don't contemplate the idea

that you can lose your job if you don't pay your dues. but it doesn't stop anyone from doing that. whether it is like new jersey or north carolina, you can exercise those rights. there are states with right to work laws that have a higher union density than states that don't. it is all about union officials being held accountable. so, congratulations, james. glad you are relaxing. host: indiana, good morning. caller: it's my understanding that if you work in a place and they unionize a you decide not to join, you still get to benefit from what that union negotiates. so perhaps if you decide not to join the union and your fellow employees negotiate a higher raise, perhaps you shouldn't get that raise, you need to negotiate on your own. guest: thanks for pointing out

some basic facts. unions help not only their members, but they help all workers because they benefit from higher wages and better benefits. in addition, worker also benefit. the spillover effect is significant. that is one of the reasons wages have been stagnant not just be unionized worksites have less power, but the benefits are spilling over. your point is either that, yes, everyone benefits from unions and therefore we need to find a way to ensure unions can have financials or and people should be able to pay for the benefits they receive, or we need to find a different way that ensures that unions can remain a viable

organization because the current model, they have been declined for 40 plus years, even though most workers would like to join a union. we need to create a system that actually encourages and facilitates workers joining union because they provide broad benefits for all sites and our current system doesn't do that. right to work as one of those problems, but there are many problems. the real issue is that unions are good for society and we need a relatively whole balance between the power of workers and employers, and unions are the essential way to do that. host: about 25 minutes left in conversation with mark mix and david madland this morning. phone lines this way, (202) 748-8000 if you are a labor union member. (202) 748-8001 (202) 748-8001

for all others. on that line for union members, new york, good morning. caller: i was going to ask a similar question. why is it that i, as a union member who paid dues, subsidize nonunion members? is mr. mix going to go to court for my rights not to subsidize nonunion members? because my dues pay their benefits such as health, dental, representation etc. i haven't seen him go to fort about that. did mr. janice renounce all his benefits? i doubt it. and do you go to court for workers who attempt to unionize and are intimidated by their employers?

i doubt it very much. host: we will take the questions. guest: thanks for the call and thanks for the question. the idea of the duty of fair representation, which both of these callers have mentioned, that the union has control over all the negotiations, and a nonunion member benefits from that as well. the history of that is pretty interesting. what happened in 19 44, the union was recognized in the white union officials decided they didn't want to represent the black railway workers. that went to the u.s. supreme court because the union had this exclusive bargaining power saying they could speak for everybody in the bargaining unit and nobody in the bargaining unit could speak to the employer without the union people present. so these white union officials discriminated against black railroad workers and a supreme court look at that case said no, if you are going to have this

privilege, if you're going to rely on this monopoly, then you have to represent every worker. you can't throw these workers off the train, if you will. we support legislation that says workers and union officials can only represent their members nothing and federal law stops unions from representing the workers. federal law allows union officials to negotiate contracts for members only. they can do that. the one thing officials the man after they are certified as a union security card. it is union security. not worker security. the union will be secure here and the employee we collect the dues and they will speak for every worker. and there has been a series of supreme court cases that said they unions control the process. they can take agreements to

completion or they could stay with an employee. forget it. all of this is legal because unions have this unbelievable monopoly power. if they were to give that up, there would be no power. host: a couple times now you have mentioned the support for labor unions, the recent polling on that. this is the paul that came out within the past month. 68% approve of labor unions in this country, the highest since 1965. 90% of democrats, 47% of republicans. you started the program by saying that that is not a great number of reunions, the current membership. what do you propose for those reformed?

guest: the three big policy ideas that i discussed are ensuring that workers have strong right so they actually have the ability to toward a union. and the second idea, we were just getting here, the idea that unions provide benefits for all workers, and to ensure that we are able to do, we need to ensure varying memberships. have the ability to recognize it is in the public interest for workers to have good wages and benefits and a pension to be able to retire. we are going to ensure that, for

example, unions are inverted and were first trading. the third thing is to improve the way we bargain. in the united states, we mostly bargain worksite by worksite can lead to significant improvements at those worksites. but it can also free in some weird weird disincentives. the most successful bargaining in the u.s. when this happened was across the entire industry or sector so that all workers in that sector are covered. black, white, hispanic workers. it tends to reduce pay gaps, any quality work. more workers benefit. it also creates the right to financial incentives for employers.

all employers in that sector would have a higher standard they would need to me, and that factors a productivity-based competition which tends to lead to higher economic growth. the ideas behind this are -- really, a workplace bargaining system has succeeded that. we have done much better when workers have strong lives, when workers that unions are actually in defiance themselves and recruit and retain members and air structure understands how modern economy is structured. because the other thing about this bargaining is many, many employers now have contracting between the lead employer and

the actual worksite. we think that is a much better way forward. host: reunion, humbled labor reforms can unite the united states. peter is next, union member. go morning. caller: i've been a union member my whole life. i'm 90 years old, retired 30 years. i've been financed for the whole 30 years i'm retired. i have had medical coverage all years. being a union worker was very beneficial to me. i would like to have a survey of all the people that were union workers, how they did, and of nonunion workers and what they did after their retired or when they retired. i was close to over $1 million in finances because i made that kind of money and did well.

all i companies that were unionized did very well, too. it should be that labor should be equal. ceos today are making 300 -- host: we lose you? caller: $300 million per year, which is ridiculous. and they are fighting unions? i think union workers benefit the worker and i hope they keep unions strong in this country and that's why germany has more unions than us. they are very well-off in europe. so think of that. host: mark on the comparison? guest: congratulations for being a union guy and getting that great union pension. germany doesn't have forced unions. the united states is one of the two countries that has the ability to compel workers to support an associate with a private organization for the right to work.

nothing wrong with unionization or voluntary unionism, but compulsory, forced unionism is wrong. and any government program that imposes by government decree industry-wide or company-wide where someone has to support a private organization is wrong is the wrong economic model, the wrong policy. it violates individual freedom and the right to associate. if everything gets better, maybe there is a solution. the idea of forcing is opposed by americans across the country. caller: i just have a comment. david mentioned unions being in decline for the last four decades. the reason for that, i am a 45 year retired member of the union.

i agree with that gentleman before me who just called in the same statement. nafta destroyed the unions. the politicians work bought and paid for by corporate america and mr. mix, workers don't stand a chance. you've shipped all the jobs to communist china. we've made communist china what it is today, corporate greed and poor credit -- corporate profit and nothing more. i was making $30 25 cents per hour in 1981 while the youngsters can make that today and they have no benefits. they are in poverty. anyway, that's my comment, thank you. host: do you want to focus on that especially?

i think that hits on a key point of why unions are so important. the idea that politicians and democracy should do what the public wants is kind of the court tends. unfortunately, we have publishing issues far too often. that has been enabled because unions have been in decline. the insurer demography functions properly and made development. when unions, workers are much more likely to vote. unions are educating them and people will go up. they write letters for their members of congress. they rallied behind the themes for the issues.

what unions are pushing for is what the vast majority of the public wants. they played is the laws enroll in a political spot proceeding that the voices of ordinary people or hold an politicians usually don't have bad policies that weaken jobs and weaken the energy. we get actual investments in public infrastructure. whether we think about unions, we really need to understand that they play this direct role that helps workers as well because the people of power on democracy and economy and that is the vital thing that is needed right now. we have a peter in democracy that has far too much power on the top and not enough for the rest of us.

we host: talked about this union decline a couple more times this morning. jerome is a professor at the university of california working on a paper about unions and u.s. economics. : after peaking in strength in the 1950's, unions began the slow process of decline. initially it was gradual, then 33% in 1958. increasing the 18.2 one million in 1958 to 20.8 million in 1970. but after ronald reagan's firing of the aircraft in their ill-fated 1981, union membership began to apply sharp.

host: i want to get back to the question of this democracy issue that david mentioned. 6 we are a country for the public, we are not a democracy. but there are certain things that should be untouched by democracy. the idea that you get one more hope than i do, that you can force me to pay dues to a private organization is really wrong. but there are some rights that should never be subject to an election. when we talk about life, liberty, and right to poverty, count one's labor as property. the idea that we block someone from joining the union, that is a problem. but forcing someone to pay dues is a violation of that individual freedom. somehow the government can compose an industry-wide agreement on everybody in the marketplace is an issue of this one-vote war. i have one more vote than you, so i can do this.

that shouldn't be in the american workplace when it comes to individual rights as a placed the property. the idea of force is something that we afford in this country. we give government the ability to force on certain subjects. no private organization has had that force and the idea that union officials benefit, there are lots of organizations. lots of nongovernment organizations benefit all of us. but that doesn't mean we are forced to pay them. that is the essence of america. we donate these causes that we believe in because they are doing good things. compelling someone changes the situation completely. they will continue to decline until they get back to the shop floor working for american workers, not play politics with their money. there are 1.8 phyllis -- there's

a $1.8 billion industry. this may be a stretch, but there may be some union members that disagree with that political agenda, especially those who are worth to pay for it as a condition of their employment. host: plenty of union members calling in. georgia, you are next. caller: when you tell the writer worked on the land -- host: you are talking to them. caller: waiting you work in a right to work state, your employer has the right to fire you for anything. you can go to work one day and you can be fired the next day with no excuse. i don't need you anymore. plus, they don't have any benefits. bacon can work as many hours as they want to and then they jiggling around sometimes so they don't have to pay overtime.

and they don't pay doubletime and a half for holidays. i have a daughter who was working at this company. she was supposed to work a certain amount of hours, but she was going to work at 6:00 in the evening. sometimes she would get off at 5:00 in the morning because they said you have to work until the work is done. she quit, and i really don't blame her. she was working every weekend. she would have one day a week off. and there was force overtime. a right to work state is nothing but a slave state. guest: the first part of her comment was basically what you're taking later, it was called the at will employment doctrine. that is totally separate from

the right to work question, nothing to do with it. on the other issue, if you are doing that, join the union. if someone stands in the way, particularly this national labor relations worker with that and we step in and adjudicate your right foot workplace. you don't have to have an attorney, you can file a complaint there yourself, and they will issue a complaint and you will go through the process. this notion that somehow, all of these workers, 94% of the private-sector workers in america are not getting benefits, are not getting paid? really? really? guest: i think the color made a very good point and that is really hard to say you aren't able to join a union employer has tremendous power. not every employer will abuse

that power. some will. some will make you work for very little money, have no pension, have no health benefits. maybe show up at odd hours. change your schedule. fire you because they don't like your beard, for example, for they don't like the way you cut your hair or they woke up in a bad mood. when you join together in the union, you have budget to negotiate with the owner which gives you a cause of freedom to live your life and make a decent living and have a decent life. and that is the kind of thing we want to support more. when we like something, the policies actively encourage it. we do that with plenty of other things, i just don't see any small businesses. we give public grants and loans

and antitrust policies to the large employers. we actively encourage them because we think there's is a good thing. we need to do the same thing so all workers who want to be able to join can do so. this is a poor idea of this notion that we are all better off when we have relatively even footing and that unfortunately, employers have far too much power. host: david has been waiting in texas come good morning. caller: he just wrote that article, he did not fire the air traffic controllers. he gave them until noon monday to return to their job or forfeit the job. he did not fire them. plus, they didn't have the right to strike.

guest: he's right, the loss of they could not strike. and reagan said come back to your job and if you don't, you forfeit it. ronald reagan was the president of the screen actors guild. that notion of the air traffic controller is being assembled and the description of unions is just not true. guest: the legacy of the moment? >> that moment according to joe mccarthy really catalyzed employers to say we have much more free reign to go after workers who want to join a union. at the president has taken a stand here and gone out for

workers exercising. right now illegally, they could not strike. the basic ability to withhold your labor just can and should be a basic right. of the air traffic controllers didn't have that and so president reagan said i'm going to go after you because you are doing this. presumably, all workers did have the ability to strike with very few exceptions. host: in the public sector? 5 the key idea, this was martin luther king. the garbage collectors were being called boy by their employers and they felt that they needed some ability to join together and join a union

because that was the only way they could have any dignity and respect at work. yes, if that came to it, they should have a basic right. that is your decision if you want to compel people to force them to work, but never allowed them an opportunity to join together in a union. it is a really interesting contrast. we need workers to be a long. host: this is edna. go ahead. caller: i am a retired flight attendant and i flew for 47 years that i saw my working conditions improve not because i was an excellent employee, but because of collective bargaining. anybody with the union is not a

positive thing for the united states should start reading the history of work in america. it was because of unions that we have or did have a solid whittle class. you want to see a country where unions are not a possibility, though to china, and i alluded china for years two or three times a month. and to see where people must live where they work in dormitories or in tents, yes, unions are necessary. people should not have to live according to the largess of an employer. host: i want to get each of you gentlemen a final minute. david matta 10, you can start. guest: unions are essential for

a democratic society to function. they ensure workers have the ability to be treated with dignity and respect and have good pay and benefits, and without that, you live in an authoritarian state where an employer or the government has too much unilateral power to do whatever they want. the history of unions in the united states, they built the whittle class and that is the reason we have today off as a holiday for many workers, and there is a reason that we were a model for the rest of the world for many decades in the highest quality of living for most of us. that is not just something that happened in the past but is happening today in a few sectors where unions have strength. we need to ensure that all workers can join together and bargain collectively so that we can have a secure and facing a

future with respect and a solid democracy and that it continues to be responsive to the will of the people. guest: there was a place for unions and there is a place for unions and will be in the workplace but there is no place for compulsion. they need to go back and adhere to the -- they need to show the workers of america they can do things they want to do and they can help them. but relying on government and clinical elections and spending billions of dollars on political activity is not the solution. the solution is to convince workers to join them. think of the amazon plant in alabama, it was an international campaign. celebrities from hollywood came out and talked about it, and yet i think 24% of those who are voting actually voted for the union had i think 60% of the entire workforce voted for

unitization. the bottom line is people will vote for unions when they feel like they want to and they also will vote against them. we most protect the individual rights to protect themselves. that is what right to work does. it is not antiunion, it is pro-freedom. host: always an interesting conversation with you do john -- you two gentlemen. especially on labor day. thank you both for your time this morning. about one hour left in the program this morning, stick around. we returned to the conversation about the covid pandemic should we will be joined by lori tremmel freeman to discuss the

role of public health officials and vaccine booster rollouts and covid testing. first, from wednesday, jen psaki was asked about the status of covid boosters as well as a recent jump in the number of americans who are getting their first covert shots and this is what she had to say. sec. psaki: some experts have expressed concerns, and the decision to make boosters available -- fully way in. what can he tell people who are concerned that the desire to get ahead of the virus has put them out front of the science? sec. psaki: first of all, this was a decision made by and announced by that nation's leading public health officials, the head of the cdc, fda

commissioner, and the director of the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases. they reviewed mountains of data on effectiveness and made a judgment that boosters would be needed and announced a plan to begin them september subject to the fda and cdc processes. we also know that there needs to be -- there needs to be a plan to implement these shots around the country. this was a recommendation made by our leading experts based on the data and there will still be a final piece of this process that will be seeing through, but our objective is to save more lives and protect more people. as soon as this science is made clear, we want to put this information out to the public. >> the september 20 date [indiscernible] sec. psaki: it is pending the

final processes. >> the covid vaccine rates, they are pretty good numbers on vaccination rates. there were 4 million more shots in august compared to july. what does the white house think is driving that? is there something that the federal government is doing? sec. psaki: there is a bunch of different data from some of your news organizations, so i cannot break it down for you but what we have seen consistently is mandates that a been put in place by companies, private sector institutions, and the fear of delta. people are seeing horrifying stories on the news of young people, some cases children being hospitalized, and that is scaring people, which we hate for that to be the scenario, but that we believe has prompted more people to get vacna