report that found that the social security trust fund will deplete reserves in 2033. you could join the conversation by phone, on ♪ >> this is the washington journal for september 9. we want to hear from you about what you think about the u.s. economy. president biden tested his efforts yesterday, citing job creation and an effort to pass infrastructure and a budget he believes would further the economy. however, the federal reserve released a report showing signs of a slowing economy do to covid paired when it comes to how you see the economy, let us know what you think. if you say the u.s. is on the right track, (202) 748-8000.

if you say no, (202) 748-8001. you can also text us at (202) 748-8002 --(202) 748-8003, or post on facebook or twitter. as you are calling in, two things you should be watching out for. when it comes to matters of the economy, the president's $3.5 trillion blueprint is up for reconciliation -- consideration. you can take a look for that and watch and follow along as that bill gets worked on. you can do that on c-span.org. you can also follow along on the free c-span radio app. leader on, president biden will release new plan dealing with covid in the u.s.

a six-prompt approach. you can follow along at c-span.org. it was in front of labor leaders yesterday that the biden administration number president biden himself, talked about the efforts his administration is making on the economy. in part, saying the infrastructure built and jobs created. here is a portion from yesterday. president biden: let me tell you something. my measure of success is how working families are doing, whether they have a little breathing room. whether they have a job that delivers some committee, a paycheck that gives family. the economy that my administration is building, instead of workers competing for jobs that are scarce, everybody is mad at me, because now,

employers are competing to attract workers. [applause] think about it. that kind of competition in the market helps workers earn higher wages. it also gives them the power to demand dignity. simply put, worker power is essential to building our economy back better than before. to counter corporate power, to grow the economy from the bottom up and the middle out. i am so tired of trickle-down. i asked, when is the middle ask -- classic better -- class better when the wealthy have not done incredibly well. i cannot think of a time that when the middle-class class is booming and moving everybody does well. host: president biden for the white house yesterday giving his view of that u.s. economy and his administration's efforts. when it comes to matters of the

economy, you can look a your own picture there where you live, look at the jobs situation, efforts by the administration when it comes to infrastructure. you can factor of those things into the conversation as far as whether the economy is on the right track or not. you can call us at (202) 748-8000 if you say the economy is on the right track. if you disagree, (202) 748-8001. you can also text us (202) 748-8003. a couple of postings from facebook. in chino saying, super inflation due to too much free mining does not help. -- free money edward saying, recovering from the last administration is not going to be a straight ride, but we are getting there. when it comes to matters of the

economy commit to figure going to suggest lockdowns every time the virus is around, we will be in the stone age again by year. the economy needs more citizens to get jobs. there are more jobs available. almost all retail establishments are playing -- paying close to $15 per hour. you can factor those things in as you give us your thoughts. when it comes to the latest from the hill, this is a piece from the hill saying, the path of the u.s. economic recovery is looking increasingly tenuous. adding that that could further complicate life for president biden, whose approval ratings have sagged recently. the august jobs report came in far below expectations. 9 million americans also lost unemployment benefits this week. looming over everything else is that alta. -- delta variant, which has

slashed hopes of a short recovery. another sign of trouble came on monday when goldman sachs economists cut their growth forecast for that u.s. economy. now expect growth at 5.7% for 2021. that is just some of the economic picture. you can paint those into your perception of what is going on with the economy, whether you think that u.s. is on the right track or not. we'll start with robert in indiana. he says the economy is on the right track. caller: there were so many unfilled jobs. this year in terre haute, adds up and down the streets. there is plenty of job openings, which means there economy is doing well. host: do you think the ability to fill the job openings is there? is that a sign of the economy?

caller: i hope there is enough employees to fill those positions. i'm hoping the afghanistan, the afghani's mate be able to fill some of those positions. factory jobs, if they can speak some english, they would be qualified. i am not sure why there are so many openings. maybe the economy is doing so well there are more jobs available than employees. seems to meet the economy is doing great. host: in terre haute, what type of jobs are we talking about? retail jobs? other jobs? caller: many factory jobs. we have a trailer company always asking for new employees. we have a rolling steel plants that is hiring.

we have a plastics plant, multiple plastics plants that are hiring. industry seems to be hiring as many employees as they can get. there is plenty of openings. host: robert in terre haute giving us a picture in indiana. you are welcome to paint that picture of where you live. mark, new hampshire, also believes that conway is on the right track. -- the economy is on the right track. caller: i am on the wrong line. i do not believe we are on the right track. the previous caller identify thousands of jobs, but if no one is stepping up to take those jobs, where is the economy? i am retired, but i still have my finger in and on the pulse of my buddies who have businesses

and jobs. everyone is crying for help, from the grocery store to the painting companies to the electricians to manufacturing. i have a buddy who does generators. and bucket trucks for the electrical industry. he is swamped with work, cannot get qualified employees. the biggest problem is the lack of a solid education system that teaches people not just reading, writing, arithmetic, where we are so far behind the rest of the world, but an actual work ethic. get up in the morning, put on your boots, go to work. if you're not making enough, get a better education and move on to a better economic situation. host: do you believe that education is the key driver of people not filling these jobs?

or do you think there are other factors? caller: it is a combination of many factors. the educational this education level is one thing. the work ethic pet parents used to teach their children -- you want to get by in the world, you work for a living. i traveled the country as a harley mechanic, as a commercial painter. i went from new york city to california to texas, arkansas, louisiana. i traveled the country chasing that paycheck. the bottom line is that if you are not happy in your current situation because are mistreated or are not making enough money, move on. do not complain, do not cry. do better for yourself. host: that is mark in new hampshire giving us his thoughts on the state of the economy. dividing the line because of how you view it, if the economy is on the right track, call us at (202) 748-8000.

on the no line, (202) 748-8001. caller: hello. i believe so, because when i was going up in the late 70's, i had to move three states over to get a job. people were waiting in line miles down the road just to get jobs. hitting laid off -- note getting laid out for many years before you finally got settled in. there is jobs all over the place. i see signs, have a stamping plant, a steel mill. they are all looking for some buddy -- somebody. if you have a craft, they are all over the place. you can choose what you want to do. it is better and will be better. if somebody told me right now back in the 70's if you tell us, that you have to have a vaccine to get a job, nobody would be

arguing about that, because there was no jobs. there was layoffs, high inflation. the only people who had any money was the wealthy. that was through the reagan years. it is 100 times better than back then. host: you talk about job openings, but the previous caller said the lack of people filling those jobs may be a sign of the state of the economy. caller: i just retired. when covid came around, every buddy was doing this or that. i got tired of watching everybody. i did not want to die before i was able to enjoy my life with my wife. i retired. it just worked out. all the other people my age or some, maybe they retired early. now you have got this boom of jobs, because we knew what was going to happen. we told these people and we get out of here, you are going to

have to hair a bunch of people. when i left, i think it was just a waterfall. everybody has to go after the crafts, please. tax -- tech, go after the crafts. host: that is a sampling of some of their perspectives about what you think of the state of the economy. this was referenced earlier, the unemployment map in august. the unemployment figure, though, is just pretty 5000 jobs -- 25, 000 jobs -- 235,000 jobs added in august. when you go to food and beverage stores, a loss of 23,000 jobs. that is from the data from the labor department last week. columbus, georgia, this is eric.

he says the economy is on the right track. caller: thanks for taking my call. this is kind of unrelated. this guy is doing everything wrong. everything wrong. i would not vote for him. but i have to give him this. people are afraid because of the unknown. therefore thing to compare this to, but this is like the chains of capitalism breaking. when he says and he is right with his giving the power back to the employees, he is right. didn't you do something about training? he did something about two-year degrees or something to prepare the people for this? i think he did. host: since you're coming in,

when you see the economy is on the right track, what you point to as far as that determination? caller: i got to -- he is getting money to people. i want everyone to understand that they're throwing the ball over everyone, saying everyone is staying home because they want the money. some are staying home until things get better. [inaudible] host: john in california since economy is not on the right track. caller: this is dr. john from massachusetts. there is a shortage of nurses who work through the pandemic. they made it through and had to work. now they are not letting those people work. to shorten to those people. as for inflation, you would think that joe biden has to make sure that everybody makes that

has a mask mandate, a vaccine mandate. they're going to raise prices, which is a tax on the poor people so they can pay their taxes so we can bring in a bunch of people who are unvaccinated from all over the world and wring them in here to make us sick. that is ridiculous. start calling it the chinese flew like it is. host: that is john in california. you can add your thoughts on the phone lines. you can text us, too. the build back better agenda, the work on the budget starting today at 10:00. if you're interested in seeing how that process works out, you can watch on c-span. for those matters, it was nancy pelosi talking about that $3.5 trillion figure saying that negotiations on that figure

could see that total figure go down. she spoke yesterday in front of reporters, talked a little bit about the state of what is going on, particularly when it also comes to matters of the economy. here she is from yesterday. speaker pelosi: it is important -- as important as infrastructure is, it is not the totality of his vision. it is a vision that does was not just restore to where we were before it takes us into the future. it will cut taxes. delivering one of the largest tax cuts for families ever with this biden tax credit. i called the biden tax cut. it will lower costs, especially for essentials and for prescription drugs, which is an important health issue and an economic and financial issue. lowering the cost of health care, home l -- health care, and the rest.

it will create millions of jobs, good paying jobs while tackling the climate crisis and advancing economic justice. host: the washington times, when it comes specifically to the $3 .5 trillion budget blueprint, choose what it is saying we will honor the values of the president and his vision to build back better. we will have our an -- our negotiations. i do not know what the number will be. you're not going above $3.5. joe manchin calls for a " strategic pause" when it comes to the effort. barry, virginia says the economy is on the right track. tell us why. caller: i think it is on the right track, but more like a

corporate agenda that they economy is on the right track. if you look at everything that is being supplied right now, all of a sudden they just had this big supply problem where they cannot get stuff to stores. it goes back to inflation. there's really no such thing as inflation. it is just people who run things thought they wanted to take more from poor people, so they decided to raise prices. what this means is that the economy, what they're basically trying to do is they are trying to put out less product and make more money, so they raised their prices. this called inflation, but it really is not. host: seattle says economy is not on the right track. caller: no, it is not. my question is, nobody is asking about the jobs that individuals already had. the essential workers -- my job

was essential. i do not understand how somebody could determine whose job was essential and whose is not. marijuana shops were left open. people in the motel businesses or airlines were shut down. why? nobody is talking about vaccination itself. how does it affect me? host: what kind of work did you do? caller: i was in sales. my job was shut down. the question is i did not get sick. individuals around me did not get sick. for those who got sick and did not have to be hospitalized, what were we doing? how do we combat that? host: have you managed to look for work? have you managed to find another job? caller: i have a job now.

it did not take me too long to get a job, but there are a lot of people who lost their jobs who cannot go back to the industry and cannot go back now because of [indiscernible] if you've been vaccinated, you need to get vaccinated again or we'll have to wear a mask. who wants to do that? host: that topic of covid will be part of the president's speech at 5:00. you can monitor it on c-span.org. al, michigan says economy is on the right track. caller: how are you doing? i think everybody is confused about the economy. the economy, when people talk about all these jobs, they are always tech about the factories. that is where the economy is at. these people did not have the

work. they did not have the money to hire their businesses. the economy would be in bad shape, but these people -- everybody working is doing good. that is undeniable. the confusion is there is always people who did not work. i am 72. there have always from people who did not want to work. i think the emphasis is on the wrong direction. host: when you determine the economy is on the right track, do only look at the people working or not working? caller: there are other factors. it is the negativity factor causing all the problems. all these companies are looking for help. if they did not have the business, they would not be looking for help. i don't think that if the hair all these people, they will get the business. they have the business, they have people coming in. they're not finding people going back to work. we boys had that, but the

emphasis is in the wrong direction. -- we have always had that host: when it comes to that job approval ratings of the president and the economy, you go to the real clear politics website, they take a selection of poles -- polls on a certain topic and build an get. currently, when it comes to matters of the economy, 45.6% say they approve of president biden's handling. disapproving, 49.6%. you can see more at the real clear politics website. evan mccarthy posting on his -- kevin mccarthy posting on his twitter feed and youtube page looking at the piper -- the biden presidency. >> prices keep rising.

from may to june, inflation jumping nearly 1%. in comparison to a year ago, up 5.5%. >> data from these major cities so rates in 23 when compared to the same time last year. >> tonight, calls for help at the southern border are apprehending the most migrants in one month in 20 years. >> there are now hundreds and hundreds, more than a thousand americans with no way out. no plan to rescue them. >> why do you trust the taliban, mr. president? host: half of our twitter feed,

lee says that the white collar salaried worker. i was expected work 80 hours a week. labor labor needs a stronger voice. annapolis took power needs to be broken up. seth in california -- monopolistic power needs to be broken up. seth in california saying -- the economy is likable engine that could. ron in pennsylvania texting biden's economy looks good on paper, at higher prices are eating all happiness and gaining nothing. you can text us at and can also post on twitter. caller: i traveled 5000 miles the car checking everything out. the government and the media are

looking at the truth. there are signs all of for hiring. people are desperate for people to work. the ones that are working and have some kind of work ethic cannot handle their jobs too much anymore, because they are overworked and they cannot do it. what is happening is restaurants will have to because. i talked to qvc supervisor. he said he comes in at 6:00 every morning and closes at night. he has to pay $50 for an interview. they want $50 an hour. he said they will have to close. what in the world is a government talking about? they do not know what is going on in this country. we are being lied to. host: that is faye in arizona. caller: good morning, c-span. the stock market is historically

high, so it helps those who have 401(k)s and stock ownership. that is a good sign. if you have several be in dollars -- several billion dollars and jobs without workers, that is a good sign. that reason why people are not taking jobs is because they're kind of dutch wages have been stagnant for far too long. a very few handful of companies pay them. on the one hand, you are not going to argue that the economy is good, but biden is trying to correct generations worth of unfairness to the middle class. the stagnant middle-class wages have -- while about 1% of the population has been facing a massive wealth gap.

host: how do you think the biden administration is going to correct that? caller: we need to not keep giving tax hikes to the wealthy and hope of the company's new better. -- do better. it has never happened. it is just what republicans are doing to create a picture of cutting taxes for their buddies. we need to invest in the middle class, help the kids to go to college. you have been opening jobs. jobs for the last 20-30 years have never given help in the middle class in any way. college is expensive. host: that is from gainesville, virginia. house ways and means committee, if you are interested in matters of the budget, ways to pay come

up for debate. you can see that play out in front of the house ways and means committee on c-span at 10:00. you can also go to c-span.org and listen on our radio up -- app. rob in florida says the economy is not on the right track. caller: i do not believe the economy is on the right track. i think it is on life support. we have been getting federal stimulus from us two years since this pandemic started. without it, our county would be in the tanks. the housing markets, the reason where we left is because the market is on the rise. the federal government has been spending about $500 billion to a trillion dollars when we had this last rush on homes. the whole economy is a falsehood . until the stimulus is taken out

and the government stops messing with the housing market, they will see what the economy really is, but right now, it is false. host: if that is the case, what do you think about other opinions that we have heard over the course of the morning and the number of job openings? caller: the economy for the low-wage worker -- because of the shutdown is actually coming back. from the small business loans and stuff like that. i know they need it, do not get me wrong. in small business owners do need immediate help, because a was showing them down. this was needed to get these workers back to work, it as it goes for corporate american stuff, that stimulus should not be going to corporate america. these huge fortune 500 companies. host: rob in florida.

you've heard a sampling of opinions about the state of the economy in the first half-hour. we will continue on in our second half hour. you can call in and give your thoughts. (202) 748-8000 if the economy is on the right track. (202) 748-8001 if you say it is not. you can text us, post on facebook, post on twitter. as we take calls on that topic, some other news. cnn reporting that the taliban in afghanistan allowing 200 people out of the country, including americans, to fly out of kabul airport. also the, if you go to the washington post, reporting about the taliban bringing back the feared ministry of vice and virtue. it says that religious policing predated taliban rule. the government who served between 1992 and 1996 created the vice and virtue ministry, but under the taliban, it

expanded. for ordinary people, the ministry was the face of the regime. accounts from the time detailed forces patrolling streets, shutting down tops at prayer time, and americans saw the morality police punish those who disobeyed modesty codes. they banished girls from school and women from the workplace in the public eye. a woman could not venture outside without a male guardian. for more about the story, look at the washington post. gabriel, maryland saying the economy is on the right track. caller: thank you for having me and thank you for this show.

the economy is on the correct uptrend, but the thing is that we have to realize that this is no longer -- we are not national citizens, we are becoming global citizens. what is happening is that it is a wealth transfer to the people of the world. for example, with bitcoin and the block chain, the ability to get money to extreme poverty people, like in other nations, like kenya, it is so much easier with bitcoin. cryptocurrencies and bitcoin and block chain, the distribution is easy compared to u.s. dollars. host: bring it back to the u.s.

as far as economy and why you say it is on track. caller: the government and the congress, we had to pass a huge sum of money, but because the u.s. dollar is great. it is going to be the world currency probably for another 10 years. we need it to print a lot of money with these stimulus taxes, because they know that the next thing -- knowing that that money is going to flow into bitcoin, into block chain but it is a good thing, because there will be distribution and everybody will get their cut. there is always concerns, but i believe it is a good thing, a peaceful thing. people who are used to having money, like the 1% -- one less thing, is the stock market.

it is about to crash. it did not always crash, but these hedge funds, the ceos of these hedge funds, they gambled a lot of money away. host: thank you. this year from barbara, alabama, no line. caller: that one thing that people are not discussing that is causing such gross inflation is everything we eat, everything we where comp -- wear, the television should we watch, the toys our children play with all, to us by truck, fueled by airplane. fuel costs have gone up so much. our ports are snarled up due to fuel costs on the shipping.

there is a shortage -- on the shipping, there is a shortage of truck drivers. this rush to turn everything green and the hatred of oil, the shutting down of the keystone pipeline, has caused such grief in this country, not only to people who have their personal vehicles that they are having to fill up at the pump, but think about everything that comes to you and how it has to get there. of course, the cost is going to go up. host: are you a truck driver? do you know people in the trucking industry? caller: i know a fellow that is in the trucking industry. his cost -- he is an independent trucker, a young man. he just started out a couple of years ago.

he is trying to pay for a track. his cost has doubled in the last year. host: that is barbara having a trucker -- word that perspective of the trucking industry. ron in missouri says the economy is on the right track. caller: it is on the right track. just look at the stock market. to this woman who just called, in 10 years, all tracks won't probably have a driver. we will have a person sitting in it and we will do this thing. host: why is the stock market and indicator of the economy? caller: look at inflation. as opposed to the stock market. let us look at the bottom line.

let us talk about the last caller. what is a truck driver make? $45,000 a year? host: those are perspective, but you mentioned the stock market. caller: why would it not be? host: what you mean by that? caller: i mean the people that have 401(k)s are doing ok. as long as that is going on, the rest -- let us go back -- afghanistan. host: we will stick to the economy, but thank you for the perspective. other news, we will try to fill you in on items besides the economy. in california, there is the recall election for gavin newsom .

it was vice president harris yesterday traveling to her home state to rally voters against the recall. she said the race is a battle between california's progressive values and republicans looking to take the nation's most populous state backward on women's rights. she said, california, let us send a message to the world that these are the things we fight for. she told cheering crowd in the san francisco bay area. the washington boast -- post said one of the key challengers, larry elder, wanted -- saying elder never sought office before this year. telling fans someone with his libertarian views was simply not electable. with days to go before the september 14 vote, he is emerged as a likely candidate to replace

gavin newsom and the crucial figure and the governor's efforts to hold onto his job. stay in office, the governor needs 50% or more of the voters to reject the recall. larry elder need to do some default below 50%, but after that he needs only to win more votes than any other of the 45 replacement candidates on the second recall question. so far, polls have found him as doing the latter easily. let us hear from mitch, oregon, says when it comes to the matters of the economy, is not on the right track. caller: good morning. i am a business owner in oregon. i am connected with business owners the state. we are seeing openings being unfilled and have been since extra benefits have been paid.

but that is just an indicator of subsidies. they have hurt small businesses. a lot of the shutdowns, we are trying to come back. that is one factor. it is affecting supply chains overall. that hurts the economy, because when there is less available, prices go up. this my next comment. consumers really drive the economy. what we make and what we spent are the two most important factors. if we can buy less with our money today, then we are losing ground economically. that may play out in the markets eventually. they will shut down, come back. interest rates will go out. markets will go up and down. host: michael, maryland says the

economy is on the right track. caller: as far as the right track, i think income inequality is not being addressed by congress. they will not pass the minimum wage hike. there is going to be permanent tax relief for the really, really well-to-do businesses. what is happening is biden is putting the federal government in competition with those businesses that say, we are not raising our wages. so the federal government, biden is saying, we will pay people and you can compete with us. we will will either have to raise wages or else you are not going to have workers. it is kind of brilliant, actually, that without having to pass a minimum wage increase and without having to do anything else except the stimulus, they have actually forced big

businesses's hand in raising wages in trying to get workers. they competing with the government now. host: that is michael in maryland. this is if your from cape cod. he says over $1 billion in real estate sales in july alone on nantucket island. the economy seems to be going pretty well here. if you are on twitter, long-term, i do not think we are on the right track. we stopped investing and innovating. wealth disparities are only going to get worse. this is from angie -- anthony from philadelphia, saying the economy is not on the right track, not enough jobs that are willing to help people gain experiences. as a college student looking to gain experience, i am not able to because jobs don't want to hermie because i do not have the experience, but i do not but --

but i want to gain experience. you can text us at (202) 748-8003. gerald, hello. caller: no, it is not on the right track. it is not on the right track because the federal government keeps on doling out money to people that do not want to work. they give out money, they keep people at home. the government is giving, giving coming giving. you cannot only give so that you can only give so much before the country is going to be in a deficit. i hear all these people talking about truckers and fuel. it is actually people. get off your bots, go to work. help the country out. stop sitting at home and wait for a government check. stop waiting for welfare, food stamps, because that's what they're all doing. host: but many of those benefits

have already expired. do you think the trend will be that more people will start looking for work? caller: yes. stop giving away free money. get off your ** and go to work. caller: hello. i think the economy is doing great. around here, there are jobs, $50 an hour at coffee shops or mcdonald's. -- $15 i have another question. you're talking about the ministry of vice and virtue that they brought back to afghanistan. one of the things they were trying to enforce was flying a kite. apparently, that is the sin in the islamic religion. as wondering if anybody knew why that is? host: you can go to the story from the washington post.

from massachusetts on our no line, this is eddie. caller: there were some impediments to business, the corporate tax, it in the 90's, when the iron curtain came down, and -- finally, donald trump changed it from 35% to print 1%. the next impediment is obamacare. we pay more than two an half times as our neighbors. john mccain put his thumbs down. that was the worst thing he could do it what we need is to give doctors, nurses, hospitals some sort of guarantee that they do not get sued. we have got to keep it out of the courts and lower medical expenses. host: let us hear more from president biden from yesterday, particularly about how his administration has done when it

comes to job creation. president biden: our economy has added some hundred 50,000 jobs a month on average during the past few months -- 750,000. in the first half of this year, our economy grew at the fastest rate in 40 years. might build back better investments are going to allow us to keep and progress and move further in the years to come. the next stop is dealing with the ability to pass the rest of my build back better agenda. once in a generation investments in our people, making housing more affordable, bringing down the cost of prescription drugs by giving medicare the power to negotiate for lower prices. have to thank bernie sanders for that. [applause]

making elder and childcare more affordable while improving the pay for home care workers and childcare workers, providing paid family leave and medical leave so that no worker is forced to choose between their job and their caregiving responsibilities. you have all fought for all these things. host: this is tony, tampa florida, says the economy is not on the right track. caller: the economy is not on the right track. we've got two problems. you can print money with out having to be backed by a gold standard and that the stock market is engineered economically with tax buybacks and tax cuts. it is not based on corporate profits anymore. these people that think that the economy is good because of the stock market, that is a total fallacy. this country prints about $6.5

billion a day to keep this economy growing. banks are being bailed out. eventually, -- trump claimed he had the greatest economy of all time. he did 3% in gross domestic product, one month at 3% and he said he was going to give us 4 .5%. i am not knocking trump, but i am just saying that if that is the best we can do, that is pretty bad. that debt, when that interest comes due, it is going to be more than a grossed domestic product gross domestic product. when you look at how much money has been printed in this country over the last couple of years, if you took all that money and

took all that's to me is out, ask yourself how good the economy would be. host: boyd in west virginia says the economy is on the right track. caller: how are you doing? i am saying the economy is not on the right track. because everything is higher. housing, the price of gasoline, the price of groceries, your rent is higher. used cars are out of sight. just a used car. for a vehicle, you've got to pay as much is you used to pay for a house. how do you figure the economy is on the right track? if anybody thinks that taxes are not going to go up, they are wrong.

we are going to pay for all of this -- all of these giveaways. that is the only thing i have to say. host: boyd in west virginia giving us his thoughts. the anniversary of 9/11 this week, if you come to washington, d.c., one of the things that you will see around town is ford's theater kicking off a new season with a return to live in person performance for the first time with a free one-time staging from the steps of the lincoln memorial. a musical about 9/11 presented on the eve of the tragic day's 20th anniversary. that setting in the small town in the most eastern part of canada where airline staff and passengers were stranded in the immediate aftermath. our photographer capturing images of the set.

again, the locality of the lincoln memorial. those are photos of what you will see going up, particularly if you're in washington, d.c. and want to see staging, there are the photographs. we will take our next call. mike, california says the economy is not on the right track. caller: good morning. what is happening here in california is that the state government is run for the been meant of the state's government employees. for example, the prison guard union. california's prisons used have a program that convicts could get time off if they took courses that give them skills so that once i got out, they were less likely to offend. it was working. the recidivism rate was lower. the prison guards' union illuminated that reform, so that

those courses are no longer available to the california prisoners. as a result, the recidivism rate went way up and the convicts are reoffending at higher than the previous rate. california state had to hire more prison guards, adding more to the weight of the state government on the population. host: if you go to our website at c-span.org, there was a recent hearing of the house small business committee. it was the ranking member, he talked about concerns about the biden administration's efforts on the economy, particularly what that might do for small businesses. here is a portion. >> as members of the of congress, we must not ignore the barriers that will event a small

business growth in the future. at a time when most are somebody trying to stay afloat, president biden and congressional democrats are pushing tax increases on both the corporate and individual levels. the elimination of taxes on the basis of inheritance and other changes have implications for all small businesses and farms. they should not be forced to pay for the democrats' outrageous and unnecessary spending agenda. we are also facing worker shortages and skyrocketing inflation. we should -- we should not be perpetuating an environment that requires them to scale back. host: the military times reports that white house officials are asking for resignations of multiple members of the military academy advisory board appointed by donald trump. the boards as a military academy at west point, the naval academy

in annapolis, and the air force academy in colorado springs are made up of a mix of lawmakers. presidential appointees that traditionally meet several times a year on issues of curriculum. caller: i am in favor that the economy is on the right track for the civil fact that unemployment figures are down. that means that there are more people who are working and so on concerning what is happening. for the past quarter, i understand that the economy was up 6.4%.

those two factors are indications that the economy is on the right track. that is all host: i have to say. host:those gym in new jersey. we'll hear from coleman in oklahoma, who says the economy is not on the right track. caller: the economy cannot be on the right track with the biden policies that are coming at us. i used the example of energy, because the administration attacks energy first. first canceling the keystone pipeline and then stopping production, pulling us off the energy independent track that trump had a son. the price of gasoline and diesel are examples of what is coming at us. when trump left office, $1.87 was the average price of gasoline in the country. now it is over $3.

the democrats obviously love big government. they are after trillions of dollars of control of money. the bureaucrats in washington, d.c. voted 95% for biden. we in oklahoma voted 70% for trump. a big debate. the government loves the biden administration because it grows. as it grows, the burden on the taxpayer increases and we will become -- host: the headline about the efforts of the administration to boost solar power by 2050, a potential price tag of $562 billion. david, flint, michigan, yes line. caller: good morning.

the economy is doing great. biden's inflection of that money to the economy really brought us out. trump had us way down. half of the people in america wasn't working during trump. i know i have had my kitchen done and have to wait a couple of months, but it is beautiful. everything i went to buy -- hardware from a kitchen and stuff -- i had to wait. that lets you know the demand for everything you go to get done on your home, you have to wait. help wanted signs everywhere. biden is really doing good. all the people keep calling in, the republicans talking about the pipeline. all that oil went straight out of the u.s., it did not even stay in the u.s. host: to relive it from cnbc

saying it was janet yellen saying yesterday morning the house speaker that the mere specter of u.s. default can have rustic consequences u.s. financial markets. she urges democratic leadership to raise or suspend the debt ceiling as soon as possible. she says the delay will likely cause irreparable damage to that u.s. economy and global financial markets. this is from willow grove, pennsylvania on our no line. caller: i want to recall 90 years ago, we had a great depression. the american people were smart enough to replace hoover with fdr. we had 50 years of unparalleled prosperity. then people were kind of stupid and replaced -- put the narrator of death valley days into office. he instituted voodoo economics.

for 40 years, this country has been on the skids. whatever people want to quote about statistics, that is not really matter much. just look around the country. host: finishing off this hour, thank you thank you to all of you who participated with the 20th anniversary of the september 11 attacks. two segments talking about various aspects of those. we will hear from author james reston junior who will discuss the anniversary and how the day changed america. later, a documentary filmmaker on his pbs frontline film "america after 9/11." those conversations coming up on washington. ♪ >> today, president biden gives an update on the pandemic, including new steps that his administration is taking to increase vaccination rates and stop the spread of the delta

variant. he is expected to speak from the white house at about 5:00 p.m. eastern. we will have that streaming live on our website, c-span.org. >> weekends on c-span2 bring you the best in american history and nonfiction books. this weekend marks the 20th anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. saturday on american history tv's american artifacts, we will tour the flight 93 national memorial and your shanksville, pennsylvania and hear the story behind the hijacking and passengers who attempted to take control of the airplane from four terrorists heading to washington, d.c. on the presidency, president bush's oval office address to the nation on the night of september 11. five: 30 p.m. eastern, the former white house chief usher recalls events within the white house walls after the terrorists crashed into the twin towers and

pentagon. book tv features leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books. on sunday at 2:55 p.m., we will continue our look at 911 with a historian and his book "the only plane in the sky, and oral history of 9/11." and then i pulls her prize-winning novel and his book "the looming tower: al qaeda and the road to 9/11." every weekend on c-span two. find a full schedule on your program guide or visit c-span.org. >> "washington journal" continues. host: james reston, jr. good morning. when it comes to this book that you wrote about the 19th hijacker you cast it into a novel versus a work of

nonfiction. why is that? guest: because the 19 hijackers, the perpetrators of 9/11, are all deceased. it was interesting to me and important to me to try to understand how on earth anyone could get sucked into such a plot as 9/11. the most interesting of the 19 was the pilot who went down and shanksville, pennsylvania. he was lebanese, not saudi arabian. he was specifically interesting because he almost pulled out of the operation a month before hand. that interested me immensely, that one of these people being actually in conflict over the plot itself and the operation itself. he was a guy who came up to a

choice, and he almost pulled out because of a romantic relationship with a woman in germany. all of this is chronicled in the 9/11 commission report. i was encouraged 10 years ago to focus on this character. it had to be done in fiction, through imagination. we could not, obviously, topic down what the motivations of the character would be. >> as you got to learn more about him tell about his role and the thoughts that he had. guest: this was a guy who was

not all that smart. he had to have special accommodations through schooling in lebanon and then his parents sent him to homburg, germany for his higher education. there he had problems with learning as well and needed special accommodations. he was also a lonely guy who drifted into a group of islamic arabic people who were there. mohamed atta the ringleader. i believe the shanksville pilot was a hanger on rather than a wild terrorist in lockstep, like a nazi. that type of complexity interested me a great deal.

he came up to a choice being pulled between this commitment to al qaeda and his commitment to this woman. obviously he decided on the plot. that complexity allowed me to imagine what his recruitment was like. how islamic history and islamic ideology may have figured into the recruitment process. i was trained by the u.s. army in 1960 in the recruitment of foreign agents in army intelligence. what i wanted to do with this novel was to explore the possibilities of how islamic history or islamic theology may have been used in the recruitment process. host: what did you learn about that process? guest: if you imagine somebody who is kind of an

empty-character who comes into this highly motivated group of people in homburg, germany led by mohamed atta -- lots of things get poured into that head. as a way of moving towards total commitment. so, this was an amazing human story, if you will, from a very fine family in beirut, lebanon. a middle-class family. to homburg, germany into this homburg cell. onto his training to fly commercial airlines in florida. to the newark hotel. and at the last moment he is writing love letters to this

woman on the way to the airport on september 11 in newark. he calls her before he gets on the airplane. all of that interested me, the tug between two enormously interesting forces. host: if you want to ask questions about the piece that he talks about, the book that he is written, and with the anniversary of 9/11, the impression of an author of that day, you can call us. (202) 748-8000 eastern and central. (202) 748-8001 for the mountain and pacific time zones. you can text at (202) 748-8003. mr. reston, over the last 20 years you have read a lot of articles and stories about 9/11. you are quoted as saying those stories capture what was going on around that event. can you expand? guest: flight 93 is famous in

american -- in the american people. for one thing and almost one thing only. that is the amazing, heroic revolt of passengers against the two foreign hijackers on the plane. that has obscured something that is arguably more important in the long run. the target of flight 93 was the united states capitol. i had decided from my research a series of accidents of history or happenstance is led to that airplane going down in shanksville, pennsylvania. i will tick them off for you. probably the most important is all four of the airplanes were

supposed to leave at the same time and reach their targets at the same time. flight 93 was stalled in newark airport for 45 minutes -- 25 minutes, sorry -- before it actually took off. by the time it was hijacked in ohio the other airplanes had already hit the new york towers and the pentagon. it gave about 20 minutes or so for the passengers to decide what to do. they knew that they were part of this plot and that they were headed for some terrible crash of some sort or another. they got on their cell phones. there was space because of the delay of the flight for them to decide whether to attack the cockpit or sit and hope that it

would land in some way or another. obviously they decided to storm the cockpit. the other happenstance was there were only four hijackers on flight 93 rather than five. there had been five on the other three flights. the next happenstance is a really remarkable thing. in that passenger pool there were about five or so athletes. there was a quarterback on his high school team, a bungee jumper, and all-star field hockey player, and one of these athletic characters was one -- was over 200 pounds. fortunately for the standpoint of american history those people decided to act. secondarily, they had these athletic people who could

overcome the two hijacker pilots. they could pass those who were in front of them, guarding them from the cockpit. when i say that it is only half of the story that has been really focused on it is the remarkable, heroic effort of the passengers so obscured the basic fact that before these accidents of history the united states capitol could have been utterly destroyed that day. host: james reston, jr. our guest to talk about the events of 9/11, the author of "the 19th hijacker" a novel. go ahead with your question or comment. caller: yes, the hijackers, the 9/11 hijackers, they posted a

suicide video explaining why they were doing what they were doing. it was shown in canada but has never been shown in the united states. i would really like to know what is in that video or whatever known thing they have left. guest: the video you are referring to does not have audio. i have that. the institution i am associated with in washington, the woodrow wilson center, is going to be releasing that video today. it's only the visuals of mohamed atta and ziad jarrah, the shanksville pilot together, giving their testimonials, their suicide testimonials. we know is likely -- we know from other testimonials what is likely in those speeches. if you happen to read my novel

you will get a real taste of what those testimonials were like. they are rather predictable. they are totally against the west, against christianity, resentful of the way in which the west has treated the islamic and arabic people, and that this is a great, heroic act that they are about to commit. it's a rather predictable thing that you would expect, and ultimately not that interesting, except that it was part of a tradition for al qaeda, particularly the ones who were going to be the perpetrators. they needed to give a post of

allegiance to osama bin laden. in my novel the shanksville pilot comes into the presence of osama bin laden and they talk about the oath before he gives his allegiance to osama bin laden. that is what those testimonials are like. host: the technicalities that you listed about what happened on 9/11, to what degree do you think americans are interested of learning about why they did it? guest: well, i would hope they would be interested. an essential question now after the fall of afghanistan is if we are safe now, if we are safer.

that puts a great emphasis on where the bad guys are. we need to know not only where they are to eliminate them, as we are trying to do, but also what motivates them. why do they become terrorists? i think the whole process of the recruitment, the radicalization if you will, of young middle eastern men, how that process happens is important for us to know to protect ourselves. so, one can just set all of that aside and regard all of these people as monsters and try to kill them where they are, but that is not really all that is involved in trying to apprehend the people who are out there

trying to do us harm. it is not going to be alternately a successful thing unless we know what motivates them. host: michael, queens village, new york. caller: good morning. i wanted to ask, after your research for the 19th hijacker novel, do you feel that we as an american society and country have learned lessons to prevent another 9/11, another terrorist attack that the 9/11 commission said was a result of a lack of imagination? guest: two tha -- to that, i do think that we are safe in the aftermath of the fall of afghanistan. in the last 20 years we have obviously made a whole

intelligence apparatus, our counterterrorism operations are far more sophisticated than 20 years ago. we know who the bad guys are. we know where they are. we certainly have eyes in the s ky that will be watching very carefully. contrary to what you hear in the political realm in washington nowadays i think on margins we are considerably safer so far as afghanistan is concerned. terrorism is not limited to afghanistan itself. there are bad guys in africa and south america and so forth. it is a global kind of problem. the reality is we cannot protect ourselves from every single terrorist in the world. -- in the world who wants to come here and do us harm.

i would say the mistake made in afghanistan at the onset was to widen the american effort from simply going after the criminals to the whole afghanistan to say we have to defeat the taliban and so forth so that afghanistan will never again be a haven for terrorists. this was a very small group of people who plotted for over two or three years to do this attack in the united states. it is not the cliched image that we have of terraces. -- of terrorists. the bad guy ranting all the time. but they are very sophisticated ones, who like the 9/11

hijackers, particularly the shanksville one, were very good at living a double life as a double agent, sleeper agent. a terrorist who is good at leading a double life, who is a good secret agent, is far more difficult to find than deploy american troops by tens of thousands to a place. i think we are far more sophisticated generally. we cannot protect ourselves absolutely from everybody out there. it is just a matter of a more sophisticated kind of vigilance. host: with the research are there parallels to be drawn with

what you studied and what we saw earlier on january 6? guest: the press said over and over after january 6 that this was only the second attack on the u.s. capitol in american history. the first being in 1814 when the british burned a very small version of the u.s. capitol. that is a half-truth because of the target of flight 93 on the u.s. capitol itself. we were within 20 minutes of that building being utterly destroyed. what would have happened if the plane had not left late from newark, if it had been hijacked quickly, the way that the other three flights were and turned towards washington and the

capitol, and the passengers would have had no way to know that they were part of a plot, if so it is technically true that january 6 was the second, but we were within 20 minutes of it being the third attack. of course, there would have been no capitol to attack. there is a relationship because january 6 was focused on the citadel, this temple of democracy that was sacked in a medieval manner, but those who sacked the capital did so for hours and it was possible for the congresspeople to come back into the building and certify the election.

there is a stitch, but through one's imagination one could almost not imagine how much worse 9/11 would have been had the capitol been destroyed on september 11. the capitol had not been destroyed on january 6. it is very much in business. host: from potomac, maryland. caller: hello. i would like to know, was intelligence made aware of the fact that the hijackers only wanted to learn how to fly the plane and not how to start and end the flight? was that intelligence overlooked ? was it never given to our intelligence?

guest: it is very interesting. it has nothing to do with the actual hijackers of 911 but with a man by the name of zacharias who was thought to be a backup pilot if one of the four hijacker pilots pulled out, specifically the shanksville pilot who was in conflict and known to be in conflict. the al qaeda people were very concerned that he was going to bail out and be with his lover. they had a backup who was training also to fly commercial airlines in minnesota. he was the doofus who made that remark, that he just wanted to learn how to fly, to take off on

an airplane but did not want to know how to land it. that of course interested law-enforcement immediately. he was apprehended. the interesting thing about him as he is the only al qaeda figure who was actually tried in united states federal court. he came within one juror's vote of been given -- of being given the death penalty. it was not invoked and he now resides in a maximum security prison in colorado. host: linda in akron, ohio. caller: good morning morning. good morning, mr. reston. i several years ago read the book by the wife of the

gentleman whose famous words "let's roll" started the insurrection against these hijackers. i'm interested in some of the other people who were so brave to try to stop this. could you shed some light on that for me? thank you. bye-bye. guest: well, i think the assault on the cockpit in flight 93 was the most heroic event by ordinary americans in the entire american history. it is a truly amazing event. the fact that they had 20 minutes to decide whether to act or sit tight was not an easy choice. they had in those 20 minutes

discard the whole past history of hijackings in american history from the 1960's to the 1970's to the 1980's. those past hijackings were by people who took over airplanes who had an agenda of some sort to force the airplane down to land safely and a negotiation to take place which ultimately resulted in the release of the passengers. those passengers on flight 93 had to realize within a couple of minutes that the whole history of past hijackings did not apply to them. that this was a suicide mission. as i said before, it is

astonishing that that particular group of people had very athletic people, very action-oriented people who decided to act and the storm the cockpit. if you imagine in a random flight from newark, new jersey to san francisco, who would have been in a similar situation, you cannot count on their being in a random group of passengers the kind of athletic people who would be action-oriented. this is yet again one of the lucky things that happened about the story of flight 93. and it goes further to the historic achievement of those passengers beyond just the story of their heroic assault, but the

historic accomplishment of scuttling that flight at the peril of their own lives, which save the united states capital -- united states capitol. host: our guest james reston, jr., the author of several books, his latest "the 19th hijacker". including one about the nixon interviews. what role did you play in those interviews? guest: the watergate advisor for the 1977 nixon interviews. that interview, historically in fact, there was confrontation of richard nixon, the only confrontation on the watergate affair, which eventuated his acknowledgment of his criminality and apology to the american people. it stands to this day is one of the most watched public affairs on television in the history of

american broadcasting. i was very happy to be involved in that. host: rick in north little rock, arkansas. rick in little rock, arkansas. go ahead. caller: yes, i have a question as to the origin of the taliban. it is my understanding that they originated from a cia organization in pakistan for the orphans of the russian invasion of afghanistan. i would like to know what your guest has to say about that information. i received it from my brother who was in country in the early 2000's in afghanistan and later in pakistan as a state department u.s. aid contractor.

guest: it is one of the perils of writing books when you focus on a very specific story that it is assumed you know everything that relates to the history of the context of the story you are writing about. i have to be disappointing to your caller. i have no information on what he has heard on the origins of the taliban. host: bill in new mexico. low slowness -- los lunas. caller: good morning, c-span. florida, texas, arizona, possibly nevada, and possibly

louisiana. these are all of the states where the flight schools were. these states are southern states, republican. let's go back to the history. you are not connecting the flight schools of the republican states. you go back to the history where oklahoma, the bombing. you go back to the history where school bombings, church bombings . who was responsible for all of those bombings? they were domestic terrorists. the flight schools had something to do with supplying these pilots airplanes that they wanted to learn how to fly. thank you. guest: well, i'm not quite sure how dad onto that -- how to add onto that.

something that really interested me about 9/11, the perpetrators of 9/11, was how they got recruited. we have now in america a real problem about the mystic terrorism -- about domestic terrorism. they will have to be a lot of thought that goes into january 6 as to what the motivations of the people were, how many of them were violence prone, and how many of them had been denied as trump people. we need to have a deep dive into the motivations of the people on january 6. i have been a great advocate for this. we need to have a presidential commission that would look into

this. 9/11 itself was fortunate to have had a presidential commission that was established afterward that took two years to try to understand the 9/11 event . the january 6 event, i think that it is very much worthy of a similar kind of treatment. i know there is something going on in congress about it, but it seems to be much more partisan than it ought to of been -- ought to have been. if you look at some of the great tragedies of american history in the last 60 years, starting with the jfk assassination, there was something called the warren commission that try to understand the assassination and the people who were behind it and so forth. when the challenger shuttle blew

up, there was a presidential commission to try to understand why that happened. when there were riots in america in the 1960's in cities all over america there was a presidential commission that try to understand the origins of that. we need to have a similar thing for january 6 that relates to domestic terrorism. that is going to be a process that needs to unfold in the coming couple of years, because we have a real problem in this country now with domestic terrorists. host: there was an effort to establish an independent commission in congress that failed. there is a select committee process that you referenced. you talked a little bit about it, but what do you think about this light committee approach to investigating the events of january 6? guest: i think that the way the whole thing is happening is very

unfortunate. it was driven by nancy pelosi as a partisan enterprise from the very beginning. that has really tainted the whole process. she was very partisan in her first proposal for something in congress that should have been taken out of her hands completely and put into the white house and made a presidential commission which would be headed by equal members of republican and democratic parties. that is the way that it was done with the 9/11 commission. unfortunately, it was decided against having a central commission. so, pelosi's fallback decision was the select committee. she first wanted to make it

entirely dominated by democrats and got a lot of pushback. now it is a bit more bipartisan, but the republicans on it are very much anti-trumpites. i can only hope that partisanship is set aside to some extent when they do the actual investigation into january 6. inevitably, no matter what they come up with, it will be presented to congress and the american people as a basically partisan enterprise. it will eventually, likely, have impeachment inquiries between republicans and democrats. i have little hope that it will have the kind of distinction that the 9/11 commission has into perpetuity.

host: duncan saville, pennsylvania. caller: i was wondering if mr. reston had information about if they had gotten the airplane to three mile island nuclear power plant, which was not far east by flight. i wonder if you knew about that result? guest: i think it is virtually the case that the pilot, who he was, the shanksville pilot, who was not very skilled and was flying an airplane for the first time, what he did was to put the coordinates of reagan airport over the u.s. capitol into the flight data recorder. there is a direct route from eastern ohio that he took the

plane over to reagan airport and the capitol right behind it. this -- he had narrow skill to make random moves left or right, here or there. this was very skillfully designed by al qaeda to have the attack on the american economy with the towers, the american military through the pentagon, and the american political life of the u.s. capitol. i think it is inconceivable that it was considered to hit three mile island. host: john, good morning. caller: a lot of callers indicate that biden's -- his

inept handling of the afghanistan situation, but no one engines bush ignoring the warnings about the flight schools. raleigh in minnesota and williams in phoenix were the ones who got through to the white house. nothing was ever done. they completely ignored the warnings. i think there should have been an investigation on that thing. as far as the involvement of cheney, halliburton, blackwater involvement, and the war profiteering, i think a lot of this ought to be checked out. it seems like a lot of people are ignoring the fact that there were warnings. probably 9/11 should have never happened.

again, this is something that was overlooked. i got my information on a talk show called coast with george norrie. some years ago and fbi agent was discussing this. this is not hyperbole. colleen raleigh and kenneth williams were the ones who got through to the white house and were totally nor. nothing was -- totally ignored. nothing was ever done and i think it ought to be investigated. guest: that is definitely part of the overall 9/11 story. that the fbi and cia were definitely onto a few individuals and reports were made. unfortunately this is a story of how bureaucracy works, including the bureaucracy of law enforcement. that there were suspicions that

were raised particularly through the zachariah case that we talked about earlier. the guy who just wanted to know how to fly but not land. he was apprehended. that is where the suspicions were raised and reports were generated. that there was something very dangerous in the wind. i think you are absolutely right from the evidence that those reports were ignored. it did not register with the higher ups of the agents who wrote the original reports. that is indeed a tragedy of 9/11, but it is not the only story of indications of where this plot might have gone awry. it was discovered there were a couple of hijackers, ultimately

muscle men, of one of the airplanes that had been in california. there was information about them that was never really pursued. those people before they came into the united states were being watched in a meeting in thailand before they got to the united states. in the case of ziad jarrah, the shanksville pilot, he was nearly apprehended in egypt on the way out of afghanistan after his terrorist training and was let go. there are a number of instances along the way that law enforcement might have done bett er, but it always comes back to the question of bureaucracy. there is something very dire and

dangerous that is apprehended by one agent somewhere, does that information rise to the top and action taken? host: one more call from brian in michigan. caller: can you hear me? host: yep, go ahead. caller: you keep mentioning the 9/11 commission report, which i have read, sir. if you are going to apply that to today in action, nothing was done with that. one of the commission reports at the highest mark was we cannot have any more overstayed visas. i believe 250,000 per year are overstayed visas, which is continuing to this day, sir. also the southern border must be secure. we can have all of the 9/11

commission reports from january 6, which from what -- that is an overblown situation that is all political. let's get clear on this. these reports don't do that much for us at all. host: that is brian in michigan. guest: we can always hope that a commission after a disaster solves problems, but that is may be a bit unrealistic. after the 9/11 commission report itself, he did make a number of suggestions to tighten american security including the establishment of the department of homeland security. these commissions, if the

january 6 commission was paid attention to, there would be recommendations made. both 911 and january 6 are very specific events, specific attacks. what a good commission does in that instance is to address the physics of those attacks and how general policy should be changed to make sure that they don't happen again. they don't solve all of the problems that are there. host: james reston, jr., the author of "the 19th hijacker" a novel. thank you for your time. more on the 20th anniversary of 9/11. michael couric will talk about his front-line film "america after 9/11." later on, the committee for a responsible federal budget president looking at spending and a recent report that found

the social security trust fund will have the reserve depleted in 2033. that is coming up on "washington." ♪ >> the house ways and means committee meets this morning to consider the democrats' 2022 budget reconciliation bill, which includes proposals for universal paid, family, and medical leave, investments in childcare, and expanded health care options for seniors. live coverage begins at 10:00 eastern on c-span, online at c-span.org, or listen on our free c-span radio app. ♪ >> on sunday night on q&a, jessica delong was the chief engineer of the fireboat john jay harvey on september 11 when it was called into service to aid firefighters following the attacks on the twin tires. in her book -- twin towers.

in her book she tells the story of the community of mariners who came to the rescue of thousands. >> the maritime evacuation that delivered nearly half a million people to safety is an example of the goodness of people. that when you are given the opportunity to help, you have the tools and the skill set and the availability, that people over and over again made the choice to put themselves in harm's way for the sake of fellow humans. that is very instructive and something to continue to remember. >> sunday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span's q&a. you can also find interviews where ever get your podcast. -- wherever you get your podcast. >> "washington journal" continues. host: michael kirk is the

director, cowriter, coproducer of america after 9/11. talking about the film and the events. thank you for joining us. guest: thank you for having me. host: what was your approach to this film? guest: we have made 19 films since september 11, 2001. during that time we gathered tens of thousands of pictures, documents -- almost everything that you could imagine. interviews with hundreds of people, participants, thinkers, journalists, others. we were asked to do an anniversary film, but we did not just want to retell it. we wanted to ask a big question and step back to the 30,000 foot level from all of the films we have made. we asked the question, how did

the national security decisions made after the attacks, the invasion of afghanistan and weapons of mass destruction, colin powell's appearance before the united nations, torture, going to the dark side, black sites, all of the things in the headlines for all of these years -- to take them and try to measure how they lead to the distress, division, and polarization that seems to be in the country today in such a huge way. that was the original purpose. that is what we made. in the two hour documentary we touch on those big moments and see how they feed the diminishment of america in the world and the division, distrust, and even i daresay the attack on the capitol building on january 6, 2021. something that al qaeda tried to do on september 11, 2001 and did

not succeed. americans did succeed in assaulting the democracy in the building at that time. how we get there is the driving question inside this film. host: what did you learn along the way, and do the conclusions you reached -- and what were the conclusions you reached? guest: over the presidencies, we can see it through the eyes of three presidencies. we watch closely the decisions that were made, the mistakes especially that were made, and t he way -- the difference in what george w. bush promised on the night of september 11, that we were the good guys and after the evil-doers, how that promise deteriorated in the face of

something cheney said three or four days later that america is going to the dark side. there were two contrasting arguments and a lot of things happened that americans discovered. first, protests happened, and then more. the forever wars, the lies, the deceptions, the mistakes, the well-intentioned mistakes, the orders from the military, all of that effect on a nation that was struggling with economic dislocation. where racism had really risen up and added people from the middle east to the mix. it is a recipe for what has happened now by our calculations. host: if you want to call and ask questions about the film, (202) 748-8000 for the eastern

and central time zones. (202) 748-8001 for the mountain and pacific time zones. text us at (202) 748-8003. we will show folks at home a bit of the film, particularly how the events that you talk about impacted the world of politics. [video clip] >> if you're just joining us, you probably already know the twin towers, the new york landmarks, have collapsed and are gone. >> 911. >> it is huge. >> america, attacked. >> we now have fire confirmed at the pentagon. >> in washington, d.c., fear. >> the state department has been evacuated, the white house has been evacuated, the capitol has been evacuated. >> the u.s. capitol, a target. the american public was not prepared for the idea of an

attack on american soil. >> it is one of the darkest days of america. >> it was very easy for people to understand even at that moment that we were embarking on a new era in american history. by evening the nation's leaders began to react. [crowd singing "god bless america"] >> it is almost impossible to imagine that sort of scene occurring today with members from both sides of the aisle coming together in song, putting country over party at a moment of crisis.

>> there are prominent republicans and prominent democrats, and it was a real gesture in the sense that we were going to find something within ourselves that would rise it and pull us together. >> after september 11 we are all willing to go to war as one against the yet to be seen enemy that is so far away from us. >> we had a great sense of mission at the time. the american people had a great sense of patriotism. we experienced domestic unity like we had never experienced before. >> and america's response to 9/11, through three presidencies, a chain of unintended consequences. growing anger, mistrust, division, and ultimately the

capitol again a target. host: that is a little bit of the film. you draw parallels between the events of 911 and january 6 in particularly the world of politics. expand on that. guest: what happens in a nation where you don't trust your government, or your government has not, even as we say unintended or intended consequences in some cases, when your government is not telling you the truth and win in spite of the patriotism and unity that we saw on the capitol steps with the members of congress it doesn't take long for it to go off the rails. when it turns to iraq -- first when osama bin laden gets away in afghanistan and finishes the pakistan, where he taunts america with thousands, with

dozens of videotapes that he sends out into the world. death by 1000 cuts was his philosophy and plan. as we fall into that trap with one mistake after another, including widening the war to what was called the axis of evil. we are after states, not the shadows of terrorist organizations. it is one thing after another. i think our sense is that people, when they don't trust their government, all kinds of bad things happen. one is that they believe in conspiracy theories and another is that they really divide across party lines for sure. class lines and a lot of the elite class in america did not have any blood or treasure directly involved in the wars in afghanistan. it all just, for more than a

decade, was active news. on the national news, especially around the rush to go to iraq and the weapons of mass destruction, it did not help things by themselves not being accurate, by not discovering -- hardly of the other news organizations in america stepped up and said, wait, there is trouble with the weapons of mass destruction allegation. that began to put truth in play in america. when people don't believe the government, when people distrust decisions that are being made and eventually each other, you get, i think, what we have now. if along the way you get a president like our most recent president hu stokes that fire -- president, who stokes that fire,

and 9/11 is a wedge issue when two other presidents had been stuck in the quagmire. it is quite a switch. that is when the fuse gets lit for what happened in the capitol building on january 6. host: rich in new york. you are first. go ahead. caller: i was wondering, i thought that you were making a point in the documentary that you thought that it was bin laden's intent to get america to overreact and wind up basically bankrupting themselves and that was how bin laden would overtake guest: that was certainly the strategy. the people we talked with the film, that we trust, does the

analysis have been done. the messages of which we have all seen. but yes, in the first instance he gets away from afghanistan from where he was trapped, i guess. they get across the border in canton to america. they can say to the world, the most powerful military machine in the world, i wonder if america is a paper tiger. in some way that i can't imagine , he creates -- he is a geopolitical strategist, but he has a sense that overreaction would be part of what we did and what our allies did and what president bush did. and he was right. things happened. from the torture stuff to the not being ready to do anything with afghanistan once we had kind of broken it and the same

is really true in iraq. he was leaning back and watching it all unfold. to whoever he was talking to, i told you so. this is what these people would do. whether he was actually that clever or hoped anticipated that would be what we would do, people we talked to so that is what it feels like to them given the way he treats periodically with the kind of idea toward death by a thousand touch strategy. host: in arizona, this is eddie. caller: i am here. host: go ahead, you are on. caller: my question is, does he believe we are just as vulnerable today to a terrorist

attack from the middle east or -- basically, that is the question. are we just as vulnerable today? guest: i think we were especially vulnerable them from what cia people tell us. as was discussed earlier on the program, according to all the cia people we have talked to, the lights were flashing in the summer of 2001. the white house didn't hear it, didn't believe it, whatever. others didn't communicate it or it was ignored, whatever happened -- the lights are shining very bright for every president now. since then in fact, almost every decision as you will see in the film -- almost every one of the big decisions certainly obama made and that cheney was pushing were all about if there is the

slightest chance, 1% chance that a terrorist group is going to rise up somewhere, we've got to make sure they can't raise up. that was the strategy in afghanistan. i think probably our systems are better, certainly more intelligence agencies, i think 17 now. it is all coordinated in one place. we did what america does, what big nations do. we created a top-secret america bureaucracy to respond to the permit of homeland security in a giant, the biggest building in washington is there. theoretically, if money and manpower can provide, americas much more prepared and

presidents understand a single attack on america can destroy their presidency. given that 9/11 happened, and think it is going to be effective. if there are things you can do to get ready that are different than what was happening on september 10, 2001, those things have been purchased, bought, paid for through trillions of dollars worth of things. we have fought a couple wars in that region, we were all over it is much as we can be. we are not there diplomatically, but i have to believe we have spent a lot of money on a lot of people to keep their eyes and ears open. of course we are going to be watching afghanistan for the introduction of not only isis-k but al qaeda and other groups that have gathered over the last

four or five years across northern africa and the middle east. watching closely, watching for whether we can anticipate and stop an attack -- nobody knows until it happens. or they try to do it. host: how did your film address the recent events in afghanistan , the pullout of military operations? guest: essentially, we noted it. we were done with the film. we opened it up to go back in and noted -- note it. excuse me. and we had the president saying -- president biden, a couple of cautionary tales.

at the end of it. it is an interesting thing when you make these big films for a living. what happens is if you put the details of what is happening, what america was doing -- if you get this right in the early stages then you come down. things are happening of their own force. he sort of knew, you can sort of know when you watch the film that afghanistan is coming in after obama try to get out and trump wanted to get out, even negotiated with the taliban and had a treaty, you knew it was coming. the falling action. like everything like you will see in the film that happened. other than actually getting osama bin laden and killing him after 10 years, you see it in you sort of know, here we go again.

another thing that looks like one thing. it is probably -- biden is getting out, he promised he would get out. obama tried to get out. now it happened. but the consequences -- all you can do if you are a film maker is say watch the last two hours, they are good hints about what is going to happen in the future. host: from texas, hello. caller: good morning, think you for letting me speak. i want to say that america is the most powerful nation on the earth. we don't have the philosophy like other places in germany where we have to go and places and dominate them for years and control them. the world doesn't work like that anymore, with our technology people can see things. i want to commend the young man -- host: are you there?

i think he got disconnected. mr. kirk, if you want to respond. guest: i don't know where he was going, but it was going to be provocative. i wish we could hear the rest of it. host: from tina in illinois, hello. caller: yes. i wanted to make a statement that i think america has destabilized other countries around the world and now it is happening to us. this is supposed to happen to america. that is all i wanted to say. host: when you say this is supposed to happen, what you mean question mark --? caller: it's in the bible. all empires come to an end. america is nothing but empire. genocide on native americans, think they don't have to pay a price. host: that is teen in illinois.

one of the things you talk about, we sure the various presidents in the roles they had. -- you show the various presidents and the roles they had. we will show you a little from the film into then you can talk about it. [video clip] >> facing two wars, he knew which when he was going to fight. >> there was a huge and deadly explosion afghanistan. >> obama's global analysis of the situation was that afghanistan was the right tour and iraq was the wrong war. >> for president obama, the attacks of 9/11 had come from afghanistan. >> president obama's message was to double down, we are going to win in afghanistan which was a good war. >> obama wanted to reverse years

of failure and afghanistan. and to the victory that eluded president bush. to do it, he brian a hard charging general -- bought in a hard charging general. >> he was the head of special forces and brings with him his old special forces group. who speak in a harsh language of special forces. we don't hire the snake eaters as they call themselves, to be america's diplomat. >> he describes the afghan conflict is at a precipice and we are at risk of losing. it can be turned around. >> tens of thousands of troops was necessary. obama was reluctant. but wanted to win. he agreed. >> u.s. troops are not heading

to afghanistan. >> a third of american troops are at its peak. >> the final deployment of u.s. troops is arriving in afghanistan. >> is the troop surge working question mark -- working? >> he had to bring victory to afghanistan. >> military commanders wanted to show how additional forces deployed to president obama could turn the tide of the war. to show how u.s. forces could not back the taliban. >> he designed a task case. 15,000 troops would try to round the resurgent taliban from their stronghold. >> i was there on the ground. the truth was, it was a mess. >> come on. [gunfire] >> watch yourself. [gunfire] >> the american forces could not

hold it. host: that is a bit from the film. the obama administration's influence on afghanistan. guest: what happens after they can't hold it is quoted as saying it is a bleeding ulcer. he is back at the oval office in realizes he can't win and that america can't win. in afghanistan. he is also told by experts that if you pull out and there is an attack on americans, afghanistan had been the place where al qaeda came from. he is between a rock and a hard place. that is when he decides to mow the lawn and afghanistan. that is the phrase the used. to just make sure, be there enough to make sure that a

terror group does not form up, does not use as a place of operation and come forward and do something to america. and to destroys presidency. he had a very aggressive domestic agenda and he did not want afghanistan to get in the way of that. so we stay in afghanistan. the way they devise to stay in afghanistan, the thing he embraces aside for most of the cia stuff that bush had been doing other than torture in waterboarding and a couple other things, he signs on for a lot of it. including guantanamo. he will try to get guantanamo. but he couldn't. so it stays open. then drones as a way of attacking, he beyond doubles down. quite a large number more than

bush ever used. thousands of people are killed, including civilians, children, etc. it is a very aggressive, from the air new weapon and obama not only embraces it, but he must approve it and it does with great frequency. that becomes his war machine. a bit of an ironic thing to happen for president who had been given the nobel peace prize in the early months of his presidency. that is why we were still in afghanistan until about two weeks ago. host: from houston, texas. go ahead. caller: yes. mr. kirk, i watched the program last night. i was very impressed.

the front line really came through. particularly among the presentation of the speakers, the contributors like the author of the unraveling and obama's national security. it felt like the program itself contributed to the understanding of the whole. -- of the whole period from 9/11 and going into iraq which is really sad. but at the very end of the programming, the added on, the withdraw of afghanistan -- i

don't think you were critical enough. the way it was done. and of has two hours and you had time limitations, perhaps that can be covered. but i also felt like the criticism of trump and his period was very partisan. i lived through trump era and there were many things trumpeted -- trump did. i guess you were sticking to the war period and the withdraw into the 9/11 context, but i did feel like it was very partisan. host: we will let our guest respond. guest: that is the great thing about america. irene and others, to be able to

-- if you are me, worry about division we all feel toward each other, it is refreshing to have someone be able to say i didn't think you are fair there. as somebody who tells stories for a living and tries to get it right into be as full as possible, it is great to hear. somebody who can say i agree with that, i didn't agree with that. somebody is paying attention in trying their best -- and trying their best to make it make truthful sense. i applaud the question and i appreciate the question. and the fact that you watch the film -- watched the film, that is what my job is.

that is what i wish there was more of in the country. host: dan in west virginia. good morning. caller: hello. i remember reading when 9/11 happened, this should be a police action instead of a military action and i was wondering how mr. kirk felt, if things would have been different if it was a police action. enqueue. -- thank you. guest: the phrase is more than it sounds literally. back when america was first hit in beirut, america did not really have a policy on what to do about terrorism. we never had a hit, then our cia station was hit. inside the reagan administration, there was an argument about what you do.

do you do police action, which is arresting perpetrators, and when to evidence, take them out come up the medical ward of law. break them up that way. or -- go after them with techniques of law enforcement. the fbi would play a big role, that is what they do. you interrogate people, you be careful not to be prejudicial in all things that did not happen once the decision was made of law enforcement. cia driven approach to terrorism. it is a theoretical discussion that continues to happen between shouldn't we be surgical and taking out terror cells here into their into leadership here and there, resting them because we are in america and believe in -- everything about our constitution into law supposes we would do that.

but once cheney and others pushed -- in the bush administration decided we need to go for -- it was a perilous time, we were going to walk away from our constitutional responsibilities. we were going to put people in guantanamo. they would be out of the jurisdiction of the american constitution. we would torture, rest, even in sovereign nations. -- arrest, even in sovereign nations. that becomes a kind of military/ national security intelligence agency operation. it is not just me, it is what people have told us. if there would have been police action, the fbi would have done it. there would be trials in new york and problems with that too.

but that is why the fbi walked away from interrogations. from people in guantanamo and other places. they thought it was unconstitutional, what was happening. some even said, are we authorized to arrest? the interrogators are breaking the law. that is what was going on in america and i'm star economic and more precise. -- i am sorry i cannot to more surprised. that is the difference between police action into military action. host: you can find the movie to stream for free on pbs.org and the app. michael kirk, director, cowriter and coproducer. mr. kirk, thank you. coming up, we turn our attention to domestic issues.

we look at federal spending, particularly recent government reports about the future of the trust fund. that conversation coming up next on washington journal. ♪ >> 20 years ago on september the 11th 2001, two large commercial airlines flew into the world trade center. a few minutes later, american airlines flight 77 crashed into the pentagon, killing a total of 189 people. the fourth plane, united 93, crash in a field near shanks for pennsylvania at three minutes past 10:00 on that morning. 44 perished. these events, as everyone knows,

were a great shock to our nation and the world. as a small way to commemorate this moment in u.s. history, here are some of the callers to the c-span network the morning after, beginning at 6:00. >> the entire united states is shut down. you're talking to people around the country and around the world who are shaken to their roots by this. >> i look -- a look back on the september 11 attacks. listen at c-span.org or wherever you get your podcasts. ♪

>> washington journal continues. host: joining us now, maya macguineas. remind our viewers about your organization and how it is financially backed. guest: the committee for response will federal budget is a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization that focuses on fiscal responsibility and what that means is a good question. we try to think about how you manage the deficits and debt in this country after how much we borrow year. the cumulation of that. how do you manage that in a way that a smart for the economy, families and the long-term health of the country rather than political interests? it is made up of a bipartisan

group of people who have run the treasury department, the budget committee, the congressional budget office, the office of management budget. i am a political independent, which i think is important to mention. we are backed by small donors and foundations. host: looking at the management of debt and deficit in the united states, how to social security and medicare fit into that picture? guest: social security and part of medicare both programs are financed by an accounting mechanism that helps us know how much money is going into the program and how much money we have to spend. but they are all part of the major, big, multitrillion dollar federal budget. social security importantly is the single biggest program into federal budget, medicare is not far behind. as we are going to talk about, because of the trust funds, we know both of the programs are underfunded, dangerously underfunded.

they are some of the most important programs because they go directly to so many americans and for many of us, it is the largest tax that many people pay. benefits is something that almost everybody receives in their later years. host: what was said about the funds come about their fiscal future question -- future? guest: what we got from the trustees was not good news. expected, but not good. social security is becoming -- there will not be enough money in the trust funds to pay all the benefits promised in the year 2034. that is not far off. that is when today's 54-year-old to start to retire. medicare's program, the trust fund portion of the program, is becoming absorbent much sooner, about five years. with the trustees told us is what they tell us every year for decades now, which is there is a

number of options for things we can do to improve the finance of the program, but we have to make those changes in order to pay the benefits that are promised under law. if we do not, there will be across the board immediate spending cuts when the trust fund cannot pay for full benefits. social security, when that program can't pay full benefits and about 13 years, there will be an abrupt 22% across-the-board spending cuts. that is for new retirees, widows , people who do not need to program very much and people who depend on it for all of their income. it is obviously a really irresponsible thing to let go in place. we need to be making changes to these programs that we phase in changes in advance so people know what to expect rather than delaying. we have already delayed -- it is going to be much more difficult

than it has to be. host: what is the main cause of those deficits? guest: the deficits come because the money dedicated to the program isn't sufficient to cover the benefits. the last time for social security, the bigger form is 1983. -- reform was 1983. the main reason they are struggling financially is because we are all living longer. that is the great news. but the problem is you can't support people in their retirement for years and years longer and was anticipated when the program was structured, as we currently are, without either adjusting benefits or increasing the amount of money that goes into the program to support them. we have an aging population, more people are moving into retirement and they are living longer. it is no surprise we have to make adjustments. adjustments that would've been tweaked if they were put in place when first realized but

will be more significant now since we have waited. if we wait until the program actually absolves and we are forced to make them, that will be 25% larger than they would be if we started to put them in place today. from my perspective, this is not paying attention and not being willing to do work in a way that would save us from abrupt spending cuts because it is politically difficult. i am sure we will have a lot of emotional discussions today, because people depend on the program really need to know what is coming at them and what to expect and politicians, rather than being direct and honest about of an options, they are choosing to kick the can as they have before. to anybody who is either depending on the program or paying so much of their taxes into it. host: for those of you who

receive social security and medicare, give us a call at (202) 748-8000 all others, (202) 748-8001. text is at (202) 748-8003. medicare recipients about 61.2, about 41% of federal spending accounting for that. when it comes to depletion dates, maya macguineas, it breaks down. holding survivors by 2033, social security disability by 2057. the combined social security reserves by 2034, medicare part a for inpatient by 2026. anything to add about the specifics you've not mentioned? guest: you've got the numbers spot on. that covers it well. it is important to emphasize just how many people depend on this program. it is an of the most important programs, social security in particular.

it is accurate that they are programs that really have changed the livelihood of seniors, many people depend on them for the bulk of their income. they've lifted many seniors out of poverty who would otherwise be in poverty. the fact we are setting it up for across-the-board cuts, regardless of need, seems to be such a dangerous kind of a fiscal cliff to be setting up when we know how important this is. the good news, it is important to think about the federal budget as a whole. these programs have successfully lifted seniors out of poverty and no seniors at the group with the lowest poverty rate in the country. the bad news is when you look at other areas of the budget where the group with the highest poverty rate is children. we need to think about how we make these programs and the overall resource allocation in our country, where we are putting dollars, where the most important needs are. it is important to think about

social security and medicare is a program that they are in isolation, but also important to think about the hold of the federal -- hole of the federal budget. -- whole of the federal budget. there are some parts that i would argue are getting fewer resources than they really need, i look at the children's budget. host: in order to stop the trend currently happening, what changes should be made to these programs in particular? guest: the trend across-the-board right now are fiscally irresponsible. it is dangerously polarized nation where there is a lot of disagreement and part of the reason i am a blood clot independent it because i don't think you can run a country with two teams -- political independent is because i don't think you can run a country with two teams fighting against each other. it makes even more difficult for

politicians to do hard things. nobody wants to tell anybody bad news, they want to give away things. the big trend we see is let's not pay for things. there's one big exception. we borrowed trillions of dollars for covid, that is what we should have done. it was an important time gop economy as was fight the pandemic that we borrow that money and that saved the economy from going much worse. we were building up to the pandemic, borrowing trillions of dollars for tax cuts and spending increases when the economy is strong and we should not have. i am worried we are turning back to that now, the talk of borrowing potentially trillions of dollars more. that is the same kind of hard choices that need to happen in social security and medicare. the specific things we need to look at, the most obvious one is

to gradually start to raise the retirement age. we are living longer. if we put this in place and kicks and for younger people who frankly, many of them don't even think they're going to get social security which is wrong, they will. but if we gradually raise the life expectancy, that would be one thing that would make a lot of sense. another thing is measurements in the program that overstates inflation. we need to adjust the program were to inflation. the inflation in the economy for the coming months, maybe years. it is important to point out that seniors are protected against inflation increases. many others in the economy are not. then we can talk about slowing the growth of benefits. my preference would be to slow the growth of benefits for people who don't depend on the program and increase people who do so you are not living in poverty. i think that should be a

commitment to our seniors. another option is to put more revenues into the system by lifting the payroll tax rate or cap for social security. you only pay up to about $140,000. you don't pay payroll taxes after that. a good idea is also the base. the payroll tax to support these programs is on wages alone, be good brought annette to include another form of income, -- but you could broaden that to include another form of income. we have what i think is a perfect tool called social security reform or were someone can go and make their own plan for social security. there have been more than a couple members of congress who have used it to come up with their social security reform and he think the main point i would make is there is no right way to fix the program. there are many options. there is no right or wrong, except not doing anything. when you note the program is

facing financial challenges, with the trustees were dismayed to make changes into do them sooner, doing nothing is the most irresponsible option there is. host: this is from california, medicare recipient. caller: thank you very much. my question is to remove the caps. if you make more than $140,000 a year, if a rate remove the caps totally, the program would be totally funded forever. thank you. guest: the cap is removed from medicare, social security, removing the cap is one of the options that could put the most money to social security. unfortunately, it is not enough to fully fix the program. but it is close. it certainly should be one of the major considerations that there is. right now, it does not make sense -- one could argue and i would argue it does not make sense that lower income people

pay a greater share of their income into social security then wealthy people. i shouldn't say fair, fairs in the eye of the beholder. you could make the system more balanced so was a great option. i will point out something that a budget chair thinks about, which is there is money big capture into could go to social security. but i would also make the case we are talking about spending priorities, whether does infrastructure -- it is infrastructure, pk -- pre-k, expanding health care -- trillions of dollars in new spending is on the table. we should look at all of these options together and decide with the most important angst to spend money on our. so social security benefits coming clinic for people who do not eat them, bridges, roads, broadband -- is it expanding community college, all of these things. there on the table and all

should be considered. but we don't need to think about it as money spent on one thing can't be used for another. the fact that how we are budgeting right now, we don't have real budgets in place. the house and senate budget committee chose not to go through the process of putting out real budgets with how many would be allocated and spent through the normal budget process. it just kinda bypassed that, because i think from what many people have said, they didn't want to do with the hard choices of saying what they were for in how to pay for it. the factory are having this discussion without budget in place for the single largest economy in the world should be something that really makes people angry. we want to see the picture, we want to see the plan. we want to see the blueprint for

what we are proposing to do and where the money would go. but to go back full circle to your point about raising the payroll tax cap, terrific option. something that should be part of the discussion. host: a social security recipient in chicago. caller: good morning, thank you for taking my call. in a thank you for the washington journal, the greatest show on cable. i love this thing. i have a few comments i want to make about social security. first, 1983, ronald reagan increased the payroll tax to boost up social security to solve it for years to come. but i think in reality, through sleight-of-hand, that many did not go into social security. it went through a bunch of -- i

don't know what they did, but it covered at the federal deficit at the time. from my understanding, there is two dollars -- $2 trillion to $3 trillion the government has borrowed over the years from social security and hasn't paid it back. that includes paying for the war. i think we need to figure out some kind of way to put that money back in. the second one, we still got to get out from under trickle-down economics. i heard on fox news, it must be true, that millionaires and billionaires have a collective wealth of something like $163 trillion yet they do not pay their fair share of taxes. they've got loopholes. we are taught wealth growth, capital gains, things like that.

we need to get out from under trickle-down and put a higher tax on millionaires and billionaires. host: we will stick to those two points, but think you for the call. ms. macguineas, go ahead. guest: there is a 10 of information there, let me try to get to everything in the right way. the first point, the social security trust fund. i'm glad you brought them up. that is unbelievably confusing. here's what happens. in 1983, we made the reforms, more money was coming into social security then was being paid out. smart thing to do, because we wanted to pre-fund some of the money. each of us is paying in, that is not being put aside for us in accounts with our name on it.

that is going to pay benefits for our parents or grandparents at the time. then when we retire, somebody else will be paying in that money will go for us. pay means a lot of the money is going directly and indirectly out. but when they pre-fund a portion, that meant we were building up savings in anticipation of a larger generation. the problem with that is there is no airtight mechanism that was figured out to make sure that money was saved. they made the determination, which makes sense, to invest the money that was being saved in the trust fund and government treasury. but the same time, what government treasuries are is how the u.s. finances its borrowing. it is how we went to the government so they have money to spend on defense, health care, the environment, all of those things that even when taxes aren't covering all of it. that is exact we what happened. we left the money in the trust fund to the government which paid for other parts of the federal budget.

it also meant people at the time were paying lower taxes for the rest of government than the cost. now, the pre-funding days have dwindled because we are paying out more in benefits coming in every year. in fact, we -- the money will get repaid. it is going to be between $2 trillion to $2.5 trillion over the next decade before the policy date hits. the problem is, the federal government doesn't have the money on hand to repay it. it was spent and does all running huge federal budget deficits. it puts huge pressure on the rest of the budget and is squeezing at many other programs. but the money will be repaid. it wasn't borrowed and is sneaky sleight-of-hand, it was more borrowed because we didn't have a mechanism that would save that money.

your second point, i will be brief. the trust fund is one that is so confusing and it is helpful to understand how it works and that it was an honest way of doing the program that turned out to greet a lot of problems. i don't think there was any ill intent. but it certainly didn't save the money in the way it should have. your points about trickle-down make an awful lot of sense. people make disagreement about them because different people have different beliefs about what is a fair tax policy, who should pay how much. one of the policies that are most useful for growing the economy, there are lots if you want to make the tax code more progressive, which is what you were talking about. raising tax rates on the upper end of the income. certainly raising the tax rate on capital income, capital gains, raising taxes there. really sensible one is looking at the estate tax or something called stepup basis which is

when you die, paying taxes on a lot of the accumulated wealth or capital gains and we talk about how you make the changes. we also have a number of tax breaks in our tax code, well over $1 trillion a year many of which are regressive, meaning people who make more income get larger tax breaks. the home mortgage interest deduction, there is a whole lot. we could change those and make them into credits or get rid of a lot of them because they are spending the tax code, much of which does not make that much sense. there are a lot of policies that pay people to do things they would be doing anyhow. to the second question, yes. there are a lot of ways we could change the tax code that would help improve distributional effect, for you want to do is --

i don't want to leave the spending side of the budget off the table. you would be likely to support testing benefits, a big discussion that is going on -- i will try to go quickly. i get excited about these issues. a big discussion going on is should be universal more targeted? a more aggressive distribution in the tracks -- tax code, to have more targeted benefits -- not universal. but you would talk to people whose families fall below a certain poverty line. it also means making social security more progressive. a lot of options there, that is the same point i will make over and over. we should be talking about all of them and be doing something so we can make these programs. host: someone from florida is

asking if you could speak to the relationship of a person's wages do their working life into the social security benefits they receive at retirement and what a person working minimum wage receive little in social security? guest: the way it works, you pay in every year you are working. calculate your wages then you get a replacement rate, which is a share of your wages. on average, benefits end up replacing about 35 or 40% of peoples average earnings. that number goes down, that goes lower in -- as you go higher up the income spectrum. are progressive in that if you are a minimum wage worker, your replacement rate then if you're making hundreds of thousands of dollars, used to get a bigger benefit. but your share compared to pre-retirement rages -- wages

would be lower. host: from south carolina, medicare recipient. caller: good morning. i was wondering, that fella from california took my thunder. i don't understand why these rich people don't pay their fair share of anything. it is all a big conglomerate. people up there in washington, you are an -- were in washington i think at one point, you don't pay your fair share either. it's a crazy thing. people down here in south carolina are struggling. if he were in the nation they are struggling. -- everywhere in the nation they are struggling. it doesn't make sense white rich people can't pay their fair share. thank you so much for letting me get in. guest: i've got you. i've got your question. here is another tool. we have budget tools i think are really useful because i want people's input.

we have a budget tool called pain that have. -- called paying the tab. what do you think someone should pay? how much do you think people should be paying as a share, that shows you how much they are paying. we collect people's input and share with members of congress. i encourage anybody who wants to weigh in about what the fair share should be and how to adjust the tax code way in and we will share those numbers with members of congress. something i would like to talk about is the tax cap. the tax cap is the difference between how much is owed and how it is collected. there is a real problem with that because we have hundreds of billions of dollars that are not being paid that could and should be. it comes because people are

hiding their money. they are hiding their money illegally, often it is because people are using the tax code to shield their income legally. it is legal to do because the tax code is so complicated, there are many loopholes. it is much more accessible to people on the upper end of the income scale. often, a lot of taxes are not getting paid because the tax code is so complicated people do not understand and they are not getting help in filing their taxes. there's a big effort right now and bills being considered in congress to start closing that gap. that concert differ in options. one of them is giving more money to the irs and defunded over the years to provide helpline. it is hard to get through. more people who are there to help people pay taxes and more people who are enforcing taxes that are not being paid. there are two important answers to your point, which is we could

change the tax code to make sure people the upper end are paying more in taxes, that is a perfectly sensible approach. two, what could we do to close the tax gap so we are actually collecting the taxes that are already owed question mark -- owed? that seems at the first step in we should move as quickly as possible so that taxes that are owed on the books are collected as they should be and we will collect a good deal of money that way. host: from the line for all others in oklahoma. you are next up. caller: number one, remove the cap. number two, corporations should pay attacks. try to find out where the missing dollars went and how they are going to get paid back. that will solve social security not being funded the next 20 years. guest: thank you, i love the color calling in with actual solutions, which is the same thing your first caller data.

there is fear mongering, scaring people about their social security in order to delay. but you have people calling in saying, let's do this. that's do this. it makes sense. corporations do pay half the payroll tax, the way it is structured come individuals pay half and their employers pay the other half, missy result employed then you pay all of it. the whole point about corporations certainly makes sense, as you probably know, because c-span listeners tend to know an awful lot about what is going on. there is a good deal of talk about resume corporate tax rate back up to 21% up to 25% or 28%. still lower than it used to be. people think it should be lower because it was harming our competitiveness locally because tax rates are lower around the world. but bringing it somewhere between 25% and 28% has a decent amount of momentum.

it is difficult to do these days, there will be pushback. there seems to be support for doing that and looking at corporate tax breaks. host: if you're from twitter saying the problems faced on our programs are man-made. they are political problems, not financial. legal authority should pay benefits instead of continuing to constrain itself. guest: all of these problems are man-made and they are policy problems and political problems. the point about the policies they are easy to fix. more seven social security, medicare is a much harder thing to fix because it is about fixing health care system overall. but social security, you have the option of changing benefits, changing retirement age, fixing housing inflation, changing the amount of revenue that goes into the program. that is a policy design lesson we can fix relatively easily.

it doesn't mean we have the resources. they are, i disagree. it is not a simple choice. we have a multitrillion dollar budget. a few people are eager to pay more, but few people are eager. we are going to have to. if we want to put more money into social security, ok. do we want to put less money into something else? do we cut a bunch of other spending? do we want to raise our own taxes, or do we want to borrow, which is a heavy burden to put on younger people given they are already accumulated trillions and trillions in debt from borrowing we had because we don't want to pay for all of our current consumption, that has damaging effects on the health of the economy to their ability to return and respond to emergencies, to bridge in a way that is necessary.

we know in the future there will be different threats than today. i worry deeply about huge debt payments built into it and huge amount of debt owed to younger people just because we did not want to pay for things today. i don't think is a fake constraint. budgets are real constraint that we can come up with any solution we choose, but the exercises the most important thing to be doing, and how we are going to pay for it. that is incredibly important to exercise in skipping doing the budgets to the budget committee and skipping budgeting in general is something -- the responsibility is the greatest role of our governments process. we should demand we at least put the budgets in place. host: in just a few minutes, the committee will meet to start the mark of the build back better act, the 3.5 trillion dollar price tag you've probably seen attached to it.

what do you think about what the act was to raise the money to spend? guest: the $3.5 trillion package being considered is moving forward the reconciliation. you'll need 50 votes. in reconciliation, they set a number giving themselves permission to bolo -- borrow. that is a huge problem. that is not like covid borrowing, which is what we should have done. this is borrowing because people are unwilling to pay the price of the policy. here's what i think needs to happen. people who are working on these initiatives need to figure out how much they're actually willing to pay for and what spending cuts they're going to do. the exercise they are looking at come as a corporate tax, individual tax, do we want to get a tax breaks, should be put in place a carbon tax? should we scale back spending in other places?

figure out how big the pool of money they have to work with and figure out the best use of that money. i think a $3.5 trillion price tag will prove too expensive to get the support they need. some members of the senate have said they cannot support a bill that big. it is a massive amount of spending. it was just a few years ago it was in the tens of billions or hundreds of billions of dollars, now we are talking multitrillion. i am worried we have morphed into a mass expansion of spending without realizing that price tag has to be paid for somewhere into the import question is how are we going to pay for it, along with how are we going to spend it? i don't think we've done the detail of digging into how we want to spend this money. there are top-level numbers and policies, i am curious to see what comes out of the committees and where they think the policy should spend.

the most import priorities of what we should be doing. i'm concerned because they have said we are going to arbitrarily cut off some of the spending. spend some thing for four years, then stopped spending to make the price tag look smaller. all of the policy should be permanent and we could evaluate the cost. it is going to be a complicated process. that is the one thing i can say with 100% confidence. this is going to be a very difficult package to negotiate. it comes after what is also going to be considered, which is the trillion dollar bipartisan infrastructure bill. this is a lot of spending we are considering. while the debt is at near record levels. what we should be doing is figuring out how to get a handle on the debt because somebody is going to need that debt down before we start thinking about how to spend new money. host: that hearing just about to start.

joe and north carolina, quickly with your question or comment. caller: why did you tell the people you want to go ahead and continue the law that want to take the money out of the trust funds and they don't have a lot to pay it back? you were the only one that has said they owe money back, that is $5.5 trillion. guest: what i did or didn't do that was right or wrong, what i am saying is that money was borrowed, it has to be repaid. it will be repaid. the other thing we have to do is adjust the benefit for the taxes. even ones that money has been fully repaid, we are still going to have across-the-board benefit reduction for everybody who is part of the program unless you make changes. we both have to repay the money. we don't have the resources safe to do it, it will be a burden on

the budget, but must be done. we need to make changes to the overall program so we can meet the commitments we have to people. host: before we let you go, real quick, tell people about budgeting for the future. guest: this, i hope makes budgeting fun for people. there is a bunch of interactive tools on our website. you can do everything. you can learn about the budget. we are hoping younger people will also get engaged with this, so high school students will look at the budget. there are quizzes on the budget. there are tools that look at how we allocate resources between the generations and what is there. what you think we should spend more money on and less money on. it breaks it down on how much money we should spend per person. it shows you how much it is.

how should we be paying for these things? who should pay? what taxes should we use? it is a tool that is meant to be educational, but hopefully it can be fun. i think people should have budgeting for the future parties at their home on friday nights. i hope they are tools that are both educational and fun. we are excited to get responses so we can share them with members of congress. this is a great place to do crowdsourcing. host: she serves as the president, thank you for your time. guest: thank you. host: the house ways and means committee is set to mark on the build back better plan from president biden. that hearing is set to start momentarily. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2021] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute,

which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

>> will members guests and staff members please take their seats. this meeting will now come to order and a quorum is present. we are holding today's meeting in a hybrid format in compliance with the rules and regulations for remote committee proceedings pursuant to house resolution 8. want to remind you for a few procedures to hopefully keep these proceedings running smoothly. first, consistent with regulations, the committee will keep microphones muted