our partnerships are getting stronger. this is what we are about. i thank you all and i look forward to seeing you both in person very soon -- i hope. thank you. >> [indiscernible] >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government, funded by these companies and more, including mediacom. >> the world changed in an instant and mediacom was ready.

we powered a new reality because we are built to keep you ahead. >> mediacom support c-span is a public service, along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. ♪ >> the whole notion that the family has been disintegrating, this goes back to 1925, going all the way back through the era of slavery. it's now that we suddenly see its inevitable.

>> has been 40 years since the show ended, and his writings continue to illuminate whether the topic is race, crime, or so many other subjects, his scholarship remains as relevant as ever. >>, soul is a great economist, he is a sociologist who has written books about virtually every culture. he is a photographer, the is america's greatest contemporary living philosopher. susan: jason riley, that is a clip you did on the life of thomas soul and have top that with a brand-new biography titled "maverick." why so much interest on your part? jason: for a couple of reasons. one, as the video clip showed, many of the debates for your

having our thinks he has written about quite extensively. i think the scholarship is quite relevant to the current policy debate, whether the topic is inequality, affirmative action, what have you, thomas soul -- sowell has written extensively over the decades and i would argue has been quite right. that is one reason i wanted to write the book and do the documentary. the other reason is i do not think he is as well-known as he should be. i think it is quite unfortunate if not tragic that individuals like cornell west are better known than thomas sowell. i think he has written circles around those individuals, and it's not simply the volume of his work that is unmatched, but

also the range and depth and rigor of his thinking is something i don't think they come close to matching. one of the reasons i wanted to write the book is to raise awareness about sowell, particular to a younger generation. susan: why is that? jason: i would argue sowell was canceled a long time ago when he turned to writing racial controversies in the 1970's. he was a critic of affirmative action, a critic of the direction of the civil rights movement in the wake of the passage of the civil rights act of 1964 and voting rights act of 1965, when they turned attention away from equal opportunity and toward special treatment. he was quite critical of that,

and their focus less on self-development, which had been the focus up until then and more on a focus into integrating political institutions, collecting black officials, thinking if we can get more of our own into office the rest will take care of itself. sowell was quite critical of that change. he paid a price for that. the people that run the academies, run the foundations, control most of the mainstream media tend to be people on the left. sowell refused to play footsie with them. he was quite critical of black leadership in particular, told those people in particular that sowell is not someone you should turn to, and he was sort of canceled in that time. i think that is largely why he

is not as well known today as the names i mentioned earlier. susan: you titled your biography "maverick." tell me about that word and why he fulfills the definition. jeff: i chose that title because he sort of distinguished himself by doing something that really should not distinguish you as an intellectual or scholar, and that is simply telling the truth. being honest. following facts where they lead. even where they lead to politically incorrect conclusions that may make you unpopular. he has not been bothered by such considerations, he has simply done the research and report of the findings. he has not sugarcoated them. that is how he's a sandwich himself -- distinguished himself. today, election will -- intellectuals and scholars put

logical correctness above stating the facts. they are fearful of being called names, getting a social media mob after them. tom is not someone who concerns himself with those things throughout his career, and i think that is what makes him a maverick. susan: you described "maverick." " as an intellectual biography. what will readers get from it? jason: it is a focus on his ideas. i do not spend most of the book talking about his personal life, though i do spend some time doing it. the ideas he is best known for came from somewhere, and in many cases it was his personal experience which informed many of his ideas. he had an interesting upbringing, and i do talk about that in the book. it is primarily a treatment of

his scholarship, what his legacy will be, how he has distinguished himself. susan: thomas sowell is a trained economist. if you would give a shorthand view of his theories, but would that be? -- what would that be? jason: he is in empiricist is the simplest way to put it. in the tradition of the university of chicago economics where he earned his phd under the guidance of milton friedman. the chicago economics department distinguished itself from m.i.t. or harvard with its focus on empiricism. it was more about theory and math. at the university of chicago, it

was more about how economics could be applied to everyday problems, in an empirical way, using data to analyze everyday problems. sowell comes out of that tradition. the first book he wrote was an economics textbook for college graduates, it's full of graphs and explanations. his best-known book is called basic economics, and it is essentially an economic textbook with no grants and jargon, written for the general public. tom is quite proud of that work, and i think it is evident that his focus in terms of using his -- using the discipline to people who are not trained in

economics, that is something his mentors did. tom has done that as well. most of his books are not written for his peers in the academy, they are written for everyday people, unlike friedman , sowell felt the duty of a scholar is not to talk to intellectual gears but explain the discipline to the public. susan: is that still in print? jason: jeff: i believe it is in his fifth edition now -- jason: it is a best-selling book. susan: you described his scholarship as broad ranging, but tell readers he is best known for race and racial policy. if you were to distill his writing about racial policy issues, how would you distill them? what are the overarching themes he conveys to his readers? jason: i think the best way to

understand his writing or where he is coming from in his writing, whether they be at that race or economic history or sociology what have you, is to understand his writings on political philosophy and social theory. in that book, he lays out that framework and a book called the conflict of visions which is a book about how many of our policy disputes today can be traced to different views of human nature and how the world works. the constrained and unconstrained vision. sometimes he called it the unconstrained vision, sometimes he called it the constrained or tragic vision. what he is talking about there

is that there is a view -- there are limits to human betterment. we may want to solve crime and so forth, but that is not likely to happen. so the best that we can do is put in place institutions and processes that help us deal with problems that we are probably never going to solve entirely. you may not like war, you may want world peace, but it's unlikely to happen so you probably should create a defense department and prepare for being attacked and having to use arms to defend yourself. you may want to end crime, but that is probably not going to happen so you probably need a rule of law where people can go to have their disputes adjudicated and so forth. he contrasted this view with the

utopian view of the world which says no, there are no real limits to human betterment, is just a matter of reason and willpower and we cannot only manage these problems that we have today like poverty or inequality, but we can solve them if we put our minds to it. depending on what views you hold, it tells you about on where you come down on any matter of public policies from past policies to rent control and zoning laws and military spending and so forth. i think that that book, which is part of an informal trilogy, the latter two books go into detail about critiques of the visions themselves. in the first book he is just laying out an intellectual

framework in which to view the world. if you want to understand where thomas sowell is coming from on any topics, conflict of visions is the one to read. he does take a more tragic, constrained view of human nature. in his writing on race, it's entirely evident. and that has what he has been hammering home for decades. i guess the big take away in his writings on race and culture and ethnicity, is that racism and discrimination and bias is not an all purpose or blanket explanation for racial disparities. too often when we discussed racism or discuss disparities, that is the view that people are operating from. the but for racism, we would not have this inequality, but for

bias, but for the nefarious actions of third parties, we would not have these racial gaps in education or earnings or employment or so forth. tom takes that to task in his writings, showing that racism still exists and racism can't have -- can have an impact on these outcomes, but it does not stand up as an all-purpose explanation for the disparities we see today. susan: i want to play a clip from 1990, he talked about this book. listen to what he said about it. [video clip] >> what is your favorite book? thomas: conflict of visions. it is more mine in the sense that it does not build on any theory that anyone else has or out there in literature as an attempt to explain why people

reach different ideological positions. our two people similarly informed and bill reach opposite conclusions not just on a given issue but a whole range of issues. susan: the tragic vision versus utopian visions, because that help us understand why the country is in a deep partisan divide? jason: to some extent. people who hold these two visions are often talking past one another, and i think you see a lot of that going on today. today, you have that problem that sowell is laying out, but you have other things today that i think are driving divisions. namely, i would point to our industry, the news media.

i'm old enough to remember when most americans had three channels to get their news from. today, we have cable news and social media. i don't think anyone would argue to going back to the old days, but there has been a trade-off. the trade-off has been that people can tune in to news outlets and have their own ideas reinforced over and over again, toward they can set up their phone and computer with the newsfeed that will tell them what they want to hear over and over again. the result of that i think his people are largely talking past one another. one new service might be focusing on another set of issues.

when you talk about the divisions we have today, i think a lot of that is driven by the perforation of news outlets that we have people tuning into what they want to hear. out of professional duty, i flip around when i am watching the nightly news and flip on fox or msnbc and so forth and then do the same thing on sunday morning. i think that is increasingly rare in society, and that is a big part of what is driving these divisions. susan:susan: the report that as early as 1995, sowell dr. warmed of prospects of polarization. what was he seeing back then? jason: i say that partly ingest.

i think he was a worrywart, he is relentlessly pessimistic about the course of the country. that was said partly with that in mind. one thing he has pointed to, here we are some 40 years later in talking about this again, during the 1980's, our schools began stressing multiculturalism to an extent they did not before. sowell saw this as a move towards the balkanization of americans. he viewed that as dangerous in a pluralistic society when you had an asian and hispanic population growing.

the i did you would teach children to focus on differences instead of what brings us together he thought was dangerous. i think that is something we have come full circle with critical race theory being question school curriculums, the 1619 project, these efforts to teach children to focus on racial differences and ethnic differences. you think about where this is headed, if this movement succeeds in infiltrating school curriculums to the extent they want to, children, this notion out there that america's diversity is a strength. he has pushed back at this, he says our strength is the ability to overcome problems that come with diversity, and focus on

what unites us as americans despite those differences. that is our strength. sowell saw where we were headed decades ago in terms of this debate today over critical race theory in's goals. susan: picking up on that theme, if he acknowledges that racism exists and can exasperate disparities, does his work offer solutions? jason: he has largely steered away from offering solutions, and sees his role as more to point out what has been tried in the past, what works and what has not worked. he is not someone who believes that there is a silver bullet or solution. that comes out of that constrained view of human nature

that he has, the tragic view. you take something like the minimum wage law. if you increase, people who keep their job will be better off. there also will be people who don't get hired to begin with because they become too expensive to hire, to peoples to his hours will be cut because they need to be paid more per hour. while you have solved one problem, you have created some other problems. that is the round that sowell 's scholarship deals with. what are the benefits, what are the costs? often, those with utopian view only deal with the benefits.

susan: i want to spend some time on his biography, it greatly shaped the person he became. tell me about where he was born in his early years. jason: sowell turns 91 years old in june. he was born in 1930 in the jim crow south, north carolina outside of charlotte. he was orphaned as a child, taken in by a distant also. -- distant relative who moved the family to harlem when he was nine years old. he was a bright student but had hmos was home life and what of dropping out of school. he did menial work to support

himself. eventually, he was drafted into the marines during the korean war and in the military he began to turn his life around. he developed some self-discipline, some direction in his life. when he got out of the marines, he went to night school at howard university and then transferred to harvard where he completed his undergraduate degree at the age of 28 years old. he got a late start. that he went to columbia university and the university of chicago. susan: there was a character in his early years you wrote about. so by the name of eddie -- someone by the name of eddie. jason: he comes up in the documentary film.

this was a person the family knew before they moved to harlem and made sure they connected so sowell had someone to show him the ropes. eddie was a black immigrant family from the caribbean. he showed him around harlem, took him to the library. told him if he did not like his local school he could transfer to a better school which he did. little things like that. they seem little at the time but even something as simple as being introduced to the library was a life-changing experience, so this is someone who had a huge impact. susan: he's years in the marine corps, you talk about him learning a new skill which is photography.

we have a clip from that. [video clip] >> thomas sowell may be an academic by training, but he is not one to gather solely by books. he became the researcher who traveled the world. >> the often documented these trips through the lens of his camera. >>'s was to try and understand cultural differences. not only today but throughout history. susan: how did the marine corps introduce them to photography? jason: he had some interest before he entered the marine

corps, i am not sure that was his first introduction, but when he found out there was a department in the marine corps where he could put his skills to use and learn more, he jumped at it. he became more expert as a result of them as zines -- marines. as he has traveled the world in research and scholarship, he has documented a lot of travels with his cameras. i am not a professional photographer and don't know a lot, but i have spoken to people who had seen his work and tell me it's quite good. that this is something tom sowell could have become professional if he had wanted to. i think largely he has used it as an escape from writing and

research, a hobby. it is something he has turned to to take his mind off the issues. susan: i wanted to take time to understand his path to economics and harvard. it is not a normal course. you wrote "it would be difficult to underestimate the severity of sowell's learning curve when he entered college." jason: he was always a bright kid and recognized by teachers. tom was right. -- bright. he says despite being orphaned, the distant relatives that took him in was a great aunt who had

two adult children, one of who was married. sowell lived with for adults in his formative years, and he talks about the importance of that in language and skill development and so forth. we know the literature on only children and their outcomes versus the younger siblings, not only only children but firstborn. sowell talks about as if he was an only child being raised by four adults, and he thinks that gave him tremendous advantages going up. he started out as a marxist and his intellectual thinking, which again would not be uncommon for someone born at the time he was born, during a period when blacks were going through what they were going through. he talks about these menial

jobs, this would be in the 1940's in new york city, one of which was a messenger for western union which is located in lower manhattan. to get home, he was sometimes ride the double-decker bus which were taken to harlem. he would get on the bus, he would go past the fancy shops. the ritzy shopping districts, then carnegie hall, upper riverside drive through a wealthy neighborhood. then he would cross the viaduct and there are the tenements, and that is where he would get off. he would say what just happened? why did things look like what they look like down there, now they look like this appear.

he said that marx explained that at a time he found satisfactory. he remained a marxist through his years at harvard, even while studying under these free-market giants like milton friedman. sowell remained a marxist. it was a job in government that ultimately got him to change his mind about marxism and socialism in general, working for the government, studying minimum wage laws is recognizing the harm they were doing to the employment prospects, particularly of low income minorities. this caused tom to rethink his whole view of the benevolence of government and programs when it comes to helping disadvantaged groups.

it was a life experience that changed his views, but sowell -- he encountered a lot of incredibly influential and bright people throughout his studies. he studied under a nobel economist at columbia. he studied under another nobel economist at the university of chicago. these people are coming in and out of his life, they recognized his talent, and they were obviously right about that. susan: there may be some that are not familiar with the economic theory. can you talk a little bit about its position in the world? jason: as i said, what distinguished the school wasn't

focused on empiricism -- was its focus on empiricism and its practical uses of economics. at these other schools, economics was about math. that elegant theories. that is not what was stressed at the university of chicago. it was the practical uses of economics, and that is what sowell was focused on. sowell started writing about economic history, history of ideas. his real expertise on people like adam smith, these classical liberal economists. that is what sowell studied initially at the university of chicago. sowell taught economics

throughout the 1950's at schools like howard university where he attended as well as cornell. he would later teach at amherst and ucla. he spent a couple of decades in academia. but his writing for the general public, the focus has been on the practical uses and spreading economic literacy. he stresses the importance of economic literacy to people who are not accountants susan: i'm curious about how someone was a marxist in thinking would apply to a school known for its market focus, and likewise why they would be interested in him as a student. jason: he wanted to study the history of economic thought under george stigler, which is why he was at columbia for his masters, and he planned to stay

at columbia. he went to chicago because stigler took a job in chicago, and sowell followed him there. sowell did study under friedman, everyone had to take a price theory class. that was his focus. the history of ideas. marx falls into that category. it's not necessarily odd that a marxist would be interested in studying economic ideas. susan: you explained george

stigler took a personal interest in sowell. jason: this shows how sowell's talents were recognized in his student days. when he was not writing about race. which is something he is best known for today. i think sowell is someone we we talking about today if he never wrote a word about affirmative action. his work was recognized as quite good, he published in all of the best journals and published more than many of his peers in the academy. yes, when sowell was in graduate school, he was having some financial difficulties and was thinking about dropping out and getting a job. it was stigler, along with milton friedman, who without his knowledge went to a foundation

and secured a grant for him that allowed him to stiffen -- finished his studies. the story i tell is the head of the foundation at the time did not know who sowell was, but if stigler and friedman said we should support someone, that is all we needed to hear. the man said that they said in their letter that this guy is a marxist, but he is too smart to stay that way. even as stigler and friedman recognized tom's talent, he was still a marxist at the time. they were just someone who saw he was going places, so they went out of their way to make sure. susan: we have a clip about --

[video clip] >> you were a marxist that one, and her life. thomas: it's not that unusual. most leading conservative thinkers of our time did not start off as conservative, you had a couple like bill buckley. milton friedman was a liberal in tcm. ronald reagan was so far left that one the fbi was following him. >> what was your wake up? thomas: fax. -- facts. susan: he was awarded his degree in 1968. where was he intellectually during that period? jason: sowell an initial

supporter of the civil rights movement. he was at night school when brown v. board of education came down and he supported, wrote about how -- he also supported the civil rights act of 1964 and voting rights act of 1965. but what sowell always cautioned was these accomplishments, while making the country more just and uploading them, he says they are not going to be enough to solve the problems of blacks and inequality we see. four has to be done and needs to be done. internally. .

he often said the problems of blacks not to more than what white are doing to them. while he uploaded the supreme court decisions or passage of legislation, he was cautiously optimistic about how much good it would do in the end. you mentioned about the 1960's. he was teaching on college campuses. they were changing dramatically at the time. the civil rights movement, women's rights movement, antiwar movement, gay-rights movement. sowell was rather old-school in terms of what he thought the point of a college education should be. you are here to learn, i am here to teach, no you cannot be excused from class. no we are not going to spend our class discussing. . newspaper headlines. . it was also a very tough grader.

that is part of the reason sowell he left teaching. it was his first love, it was what he wanted to do. classroom teaching is what he wanted to do. that became increasingly difficult in the 1960's. he was at cornell during the big student protests in the late 1960's when you had armed students on campus occupying student buildings. i think that was the real breaking point for him. he would remain in teaching throughout the 1970's, but i think he had one foot out the door. he was spending less time in the classroom, more time in think tanks. by the end of the 1970's he was done entirely. he left ucla and joined the

hoover institution at stanford university in 1980 where he had no teaching duties and could devote all of his time to research and writing books and that is what he has been doing ever since. susan: the hoover institution? jason: it's a think tank focused on foreign policy. hoover is named after the former president, but it's broadened its scope. is located on the campus of stanford university, a separate institution from the university. that is where sowell has spent his time since 1980. i spoke to a lot of people about the trade-offs. some people are of the opinion that they were she stayed in teaching despite the difficulties at the time, if he

had, perhaps thousands of graduate students would sowell have studied under sowell sowell . instead, he left and went to hoover and has been churning out books and columns. others say they would not trade anything for those books and columns that has expanded economic literacy to a lot of people. when sowell retired his column in 2016, i wrote that some people just lost the best professor they ever had even if they never went to college. it was interesting getting different perspectives of people who wish he had stayed in teaching. susan: he arrived at the hoover institution in 1980. the report he was sought after

for a cabinet position that ultimately he did not accept. what was the thinking about politics as opposed to academia? jason: i think tom realized early on that he did not have the temperament for politics? . he speaks his mind. when politicians speak their mind they have misspoken. tom realized early on he was not cut out for politics, but he did indulge some offers. particularly there was an offer to at the department of education, he said it was an issue he cared about and spend time critiquing, he thought he should consider the offer and he did, but he ultimately said no. one of his mentors milton

friedman had been enticed to join government over the years and always declined and told sowell that he could do much better working outside government in terms of trying to influence people. sowell ultimately took that advice. there were constant entreaties -- the department of labor, commerce, other things. susan: i was an trait he was a democrat until 1972 and never actually registered as a republican. jason: sowell becomes out of the classical liberal tradition, what they saw was someone who believed in small government, less regulation, so forth. he better fit the republican profile. those are the type of thinkers

who would have been attracted to what he was writing, so that is no surprise. as tom said in the clip, not uncommon at all for people who become conservative later in life who started on the left. particularly along -- among blacks, clarence thomas started on the left. an economist who passed away recently started out on the left. shelby steele, the race scholar and colleague at the hoover institution started out on the left. these guys did not to start slightly left of center, tom was a marxist. clarence thomas was a black panther. walter williams was sympathetic to the views of malcolm x. shelby steele was a black radical in the 1960's. it wasn't that uncommon that

sowell's origins in that sense. i'm not surprised at all. susan: just to let you know, we have about 15 minutes left. i wanted to go back about not suffering. the. i started writing down some descriptions, headstrong, high-handed indifference, surprising self-assurance. if you met thomas sowell in person, what would you get? jason: [laughter] it's hard for me to think of meeting him without knowing who he was and having read him. i was already quite intimidated, because he was such a towering intellect when i first met him. but he did put me at ease, he

was very funny. he tells a lot of jokes, he can be self-deprecating. in terms of his scholarship, and that is where those -- the terminology i used is in reference to the scholarship. that is where i believe he is extremely competent, he knows his material, and he is someone who can sniff out sloppy thinking and reasoning for miles away and you will not get it past him. again, it goes back to that rigorous empiricism that he has been trained in and may be simply hardwired for. susan: you talked about the longevity of his column. how did it get started? how many newspapers carried it? jason: i believe it was well over 150 newspapers.

he started writing op-ed pieces in the 1970's produce papers. used to write pieces in the new york times. . magazine we think about the new york times today and you are very unlikely to read something from the likes of thomas sowell or anything sounding like that. but back in the 1970's, they did seek out wider points of view and tom was one they turn to. . he wrote 5000, 6000 word essays in the 1970's. to begin writing a syndicated column in the 1980's. he wrote it for newspapers, then for a period of time he wrote a column for forbes magazine that was quite popular. at bump what he was writing to were three columns a week in addition to all of the books.

it's amazing how prolific he has been, given he did not graduate from undergraduate until he was 28 years old and didn't write his first book until he was 40. since then he has written by my count 36 books, five of which since he turned 80. he has been incredibly prolific. even though he retired the column in 2016, he has continued to write books. he published a book on charter schools last year. susan: i think in your book or documentary i didn't see any aspect of religion. jason: it's not something he has written about or talked about publicly so far as i can tell. i do think, and i am speculating, that he has some

familiarity with religion, certainly christianity. i believe he was exposed to that growing up. i see that in some language uses when he talks about the anointed , for instance, that is a biblical reference. no, it is not something he has written about either in his memoir or in my conversations with him. susan: looking over his prolific career, you open your book with the question from 2003 asking him how would you like to be remembered? what was his response to this? jason: i don't think that tom is much interested in personal notoriety, and i think the proof is in the pudding. someone who is interested in

notoriety i don't think would have jumped into these racial controversies over the years, they would have kept their head down and saw how towards and prestige that the left-wing elites received today. sowell was not interested in that. i think his career is proof of that. what he is interested in, and what he said in that interview, is that he is interested in his ideas being out there and prevailing in policy debates. but, it is not personal notoriety that is driving him. he sees his work as part of a continuum. he is just submitting to a body of work that pretty exists -- preexist him and will continue

to grow when he is gone. he is trying to add to this body of work that is out there. that is how he sees himself. susan: i want to spend our last few minutes with a little bit on you. you are a senior fellow at a think tank and you have a column in the wall street journal. tell me about your work at the manhattan institute. jason: i am a journalist, i do not self identified as a scholar. [laughter] i write down questions and answers people give me. i write a column focused mostly on urban public policy. racial issues, police issues, tax issues, immigration, regulations and so forth. i spend more than two decades at

the wall street journal prior to joining the manhattan institute writing about these issues. i continue writing about them at the manhattan institute in addition to writing books. public speaking. going on television and radio and talking about the things i write about. it's more of a journalist in residence that i am a scholar in these areas. but sowell's has informed my thinking for a very long time, he is someone i discovered in college in the early 1990's and having discussions about affirmative action. someone said you sound like tom sowell. the person wrote down the name of the book on a sheet of paper and i went to the school library and i read in one sitting and went back the next day and checked out the library's entire

-- and have been hooked ever since. i first got to meet him in the mid-1990's after i joined the wall street journal editorial page, and he would come to new york on book tours and meet with editorial boards. that is how i got to meet him, and later i went to hoover and wrote up a profile for him. that is when we struck up an acquaintance that has endured ever since. i was quite shocked he did not have a biographer. not shocked that he did not want one. so over the course of a decade, trying to get him to write this. he tried to get me to write it without his cooperation, but i wanted his cooperation. eventually with the help of some of his friends, we wore him down and he agreed to sit for some long interviews. susan: if your book or this conversation has intrigued

people to learn more about his work, where would you recommend to start? jason: if you don't know anything, he published a book in 2011 sowell sowell called the thomas reader. it's a collection of book chapters and essays, economic history, culture, race, migration, intellectualism. it gives you a nice sampling of his work, you might want to start their. if you want to dig deeper, conflict of visions is the book that explains the flame work on which he is operating. susan: last question. you describe thomas sowell of a continuum, we talked about his intellectual forbearers.

who are the inheritors? jason: [laughter] basically, if you name a black conservative, they have probably been influenced by thomas sowell has been around that long. it would be hard to find a black conservative that was not significantly influenced. you see academics like lemon lowery, in younger writers like coleman hughes and wilford riley, you see some of thomas sowell. he has had an impact. not as big an impact as i think he should have, and i want him to have which is why i wrote the book, but he has made his mark.

susan: jason riley's book is called "maverick." thank you so much for giving c-span an hour. jason: thank you. ♪ >> all q&a programs are available on our website or on a podcast at c-span.org.

and foreign affair issues from london this is about 45 minutes. >> we now come to questions. >> numbe