only one to get fired. you still have your job, that is good. we want to thank you for being with us. >> if we can help you at all, mr. chairman, don't hesitate to call us, we are here to help. >> absolutely. that concludes our hearing and we will adjourn. thank you. >> the bureau of labor statistics has released the september jobs report. the u.s. added 194,000 jobs, less than half of market estimates. president biden will talk about the latest jobs report. you can watch live coverage starting at eastern here on c-span. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. including buckeye broadband. ♪

>> buckeye broadband supports c-span as a public service, along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. q&a on our c-span now app. host: we are joined by josh rudolph now, a national security staff member during the obama administration. now he works at the alliance for securing democracy. explain what you do there. guest: hi. the alliance is a transatlantic think tank program housed at the german marshall fund, focused on stopping autocratic efforts to interfere in democracy. on the money guy -- i;m the -- i'm the money guy. host: a busy week for the money

guy with the revelations in the "pandora papers." a headline, "lawmakers call for a crackdown on financial enablers" after those revelations. what do we mean by financial enablers? guest: i am glad it is picking up, because that was the second headline from the "pandora papers." the first was all these politicians, the king of jordan, heads of state who have fortunes overseas, but the enablers are the second story, which is american professionals who are handling this dirty money, enabling foreign corruption and bringing it onto our shores. i am talking about unregulated lawyers, hedge fund managers, art dealers, trust administrators who set up these legal arrangements, and then move money into the united states.

so, what that means, in terms of the u.s.'s role in the pandora papers, is the policy response to this problem needs to similarly be made in america. host: why should americans worry about dirty money? why is money laundering a threat? guest: it is a great question, because sometimes in the cases of the "pandora papers", it is not even necessarily illegal. sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. that is the biggest scandal, when it is not illegal. but to give examples of the types of individuals who were apparently holding a billion dollars in south dakota in these trust arrangements, these are not good folks. these are tycoons bulldozing homes in the dominican republic. they are injured trafficking rings, violating labor laws and guatemala or underpaying farmers

in brazil, so for the u.s. to be enabling that kind of crooked thuggery. chris, we failed to live up to our values. we have taken money not investing in american communities. we are propping up adversarial regimes and sowing resentment against america all over the world. it's a security challenge. host: who is we? who are these people? guest: professionals who, like i mentioned, the trust administrators, lawyers, accountants, hedge fund managers who are handling the money. i do not say in that particular list bankers, although there is good and bad apples everywhere. but i am focusing on the professional enablers, because they do not have similar regulations. they do not have to scrutinize their clients, figure out the source of their wealth the way we require of banks.

that is with the policy response has to be. host: what is congress proposing to do about the nonbank enablers? guest: to watch out for dirty money. and let the treasury department know if they see any. it would mirror the regime currently in place very bankers, where they have to have compliance officers, audits and controls meant to spot dirty money by scrutinizing transactions, keeping records and reporting suspicious activity to the treasury department. host: the legislation that lawmakers have dropped, it's called the enablers act, proposed by a democrat of new jersey and other members of the caucus against foreign corruption and kleptocracy. it would direct the treasury department by december 31 of 2023, to create due diligence rules on sources of funds for investment advisors, attorneys

involved in financial activity, company service providers, accountants, pr firms and third-party payment providers. what would that do? guest: it would require them to ask their clients, where did you get the money from? send me documentation to justify it. if the numbers do not add up, if the money is coming from some other secrecy jurisdiction and they say that they are going to start xyz business, but they have, for example, flows in the middle of the night, vast amounts of money that does not seem logical in relation to that business that they say they are creating, then the enablers would have to flag it pray law enforcement so they could look into it and make sure everything is above board. host: the enablers act and financial regulation and light of the revelations from the "pandora papers." that is the topic of conversation. if you want to join the

conversation, the phone lines are as usual. 202-748-8001 for republicans. 202-748-8000 for democrats. 202-748-8002 for independents. josh rudolph is with us from the alliance for securing democracy. if you have read a story on this topic, you would probably find a quote from josh rudolph. he's been very busy. we talk about the enablers act squeezing out of these routes for dirty money to be laundered. you talked about bank regulators have a rules they have to follow, but how much of this in the federal government is squeezing a balloon? and if we start going after the real estate agents, the trust fund managers, folks who are moving money will just find another route down the road to launder their money through. guest: interesting analogy. that's exactly what has happened. there was a lot of dirty money

in the bank's before -- banks before we imposed these types of regulations after 9/11. what has happened since 9/11? first of all, we have not seen -- one of the many reasons we have not seen a terrorist attack on that scale is these regulations work. when the u.s. got into the about about compound, where bin laden was, one thing they found evidence of he was spending a lot of his time looking for channels of money, saying the treasury department had cut him off. so it works, it is just over time new ways to stash money comes up -- come up, and regulatory elements are taking advantage of by bad actors -- taken advantage of by bad actors. eventually, you will cover all the major bases of it they are putting their money. so i do not think it is endless balloons of additional types of

areas of goods and services. they like their yachts and fancy condos. host: banks a bigger business than the local real estate agent, an part dealer or investment advisor, so how much of the burden when the enablers act, or something similar, how much of a burden would it put on these small business owners in america to look into the finances of folks overseas? guest: they are not -- they are mostly not small business owners, we are talking about hedge funds and private equity firms. when i say art dealers, that is not any random art dealer, the threshold would be $10,000 or more pieces of art, so the big auction houses, the museums, where we found out this week that looted cambodian art is sitting in the metropolitan

museum of art. for it to cover investment advisors and realtors, there would be ways for them to outsource due diligence. many of these are sophisticated professions, where they know how to -- when you purchase a home, there is so much paperwork to do, and to have one more saying where did you get the money from is cannot a big burden. it's actually helpful, to most american businesses because it is a leveling the playing field so they do not need to compete with the shop down the street that's taking money from a russian oligarch that can offer lower prices that way. we need a clean economy and i think most would appreciate that. host: to other countries require this level of due diligence in all these industries? guest: 90% of other countries do. the u.s. is among the 10% of countries, less than 10%, that did not require these nonbank enablers to watch out for dirty money.

that is one reason why you see it concentrated here. that is why we are the enablers, because we are among the few countries that allow it. host: who does it the best? guest: the european union, actually, has -- or is very good at creating rules that cover the full financial system, because they look at these gaps. like the balloon you were talking about, after they make new rules they have a process of coming back and figuring out, how is it being abated. and some derive one way or another the rulemaking process in brussels, but over time it creates a strong and comprehensive regime. they are not as good at supervising and enforcing as we are in the united states. every time you hear about a massive, multibillion-dollar bank money laundering scandal, inevitably they are european banks, and that is because in the united states we have multimillion dollar fines.

if you were to combine our enforcement strength with a broader regulatory gambit, that would be the most powerful in the world. host: you are talking about putting regulations on banks after 9/11, but why didn't we look at the balloon again and see where the money was going? guest: good question, i wish you they're raising that question 20 years ago, because in the patriot act, right after 9/11, that was one of the underappreciated elements, section three, which requires the treasury department to extend these rules to real estate agents, sellers of yachts and planes, and others. unfortunately, in 2002, the treasury department issued exemptions. and that is one thing that the enablers act does, in addition to adding seven new rules, it also asks for the appeal for

these exemptions and that have been around for two decades. at that time in 2002, the government got distracted into focused elsewhere, among other things on the ground wars in other countries. with those ending, this is a stronger way to support democracy and our values in the world. host: i want to give you a chance to talk to the callers. the phone lines for you to keep calling in. the republicans on 202-748-8001. the democrats on 202-748-8000. the independents on 202-748-8002 . in alabama, willie is a republican. caller: good morning. my comment is, and i am not sure if this is related to what he is speaking to, and i apologize if it doesn't, but i know about 11 years ago, halliburton was

investigated by 60 minutes, they were doing a story on them because they had a shell company in the cayman islands and it was occupied by no one. it might've been money laundering. and i know that they get all the military contracts and so forth, so i would like for you to speak to that. guest: such a great question. you are probably more up to speed on that case than i am, but there are a number of cases like that of military contracting that we do not know ultimately where all the money goes to, and unfortunately the latest and very important case, an example of that, is in afghanistan, where our top source or top destination of aid is in the world. and a lot of that money ended up in corruption. and sewing resentment against america.

that is what produces a military that will not be so inclined to fight for their corrupt leaders. an echo of that same situation could potentially be in jordan, where one of the biggest regulations in the "pandora papers", the king of jordan spend more than $100 million on lavish properties around the world. he's already embattled over corruption in his own country, and that is the third-largest destination of american aid around the world. so we need to take a close look at that and start cleaning up our own system. host: in arizona, mary. she's an independent. caller: did your investigation touch at all on the russian oligarch demetri --, who bought the former president's home for about $95 million? guest: yeah, that is a great question.

my research, i do have a research piece called "regulating the enabler." and that comes up as one of the many examples of how foreign adversaries can potentially funnel money into our system. not just our financial system, but potentially to interfere in our political system. there's reporting that upon selling that property to demetri rye blow, president trump said to a close confident that that is putin's money. when robert moeller saw president trump on the stage in helsinki with putin, he said if trump is compromised by putin, it would be because of money. that was a concern. we were not fully able to corroborate that, that it was intentionally the kremlin's money.

but it does show how we do not know how and why foreign money comes into the u.s. host: rudy in seattle, good morning. you are on with josh rudolph. caller: i only have a comment in regards to our political system. it is set up in such a way that you can hire lobbyists to make up certain laws to never be passed, that would take care of these problems. and as long as we allow billions of dollars of dark money in our political system, you are going to have a bunch of problems like this gentleman is talking about. that's all. goodbye. guest: thanks for that point. and you are right, so the enablers act, for example, is going to regulate all of these

professional enablers. that's a lot of powerful interest groups. and on the others of that, enablers inflict a wide array of harms and dangers across american society, so the good news is that is reflected in a diverse motley crew of bipartisan lawmakers who are introducing the enablers act. at the top you mentioned tom lemanski, a former diplomat who sees corruption as the issue of our time. on the other side you have maria salazar, the daughter of cuban exiles who knows thugs like castro -- like the casters. -- the castros. you have steve cohen focusing on yachts pushing up home prices. and joe wilson is focusing on china, iran and russian

oligarchs. there is something for everyone in taking on the enablers. host: we focus a lot on the enablers act, but what about the other legislation that has been proposed, the justice for victims of kleptocracy act, combating global corrupting -- corruption act? guest: we are seeing the ground shift on capitol hill in terms of treating this corruption as a top national security challenge. it's like the new communism compared to the cold war. it's our top challenge, how are adversaries are organized. and so you are seeing, for example, the kleptocracy caucus organize all of these new laws that would expose klepto clients -- kleptocratic. s. when the u.s. bars somebody for significant corruption from our country, these laws would require revealing who that is, coordinating with other countries to share information

about who we ban, publicizing on the department of justice's website when we confiscate money, so that people in those countries can see it. lots of important movement on this issue. host: these are all bills, not laws yet. do you think they will become laws? how much pushback will they face in congress? guest: there is a bipartisan consensus around a lot of these, most of these. the ones you mentioned, i think six new anti-kleptocracy bills were recently included, bipartisan bills, included in the house a version of the ndaa, so we have to see that continue on the senate side. but yeah, these pieces of legislation are moving. host: sean in ohio, a republican. you are on with josh rudolph. caller: hi, thank you for taking my call. i have a question when it comes

to, when you happened to do the research of these papers, you mentioned trump's old house. has anything come up about the stuff with the bidens or soros, or with hunter biden, you know, his history and the millions in china? has anything looked into that? same on the republican side, the american oligarchs with their money getting involved? guest: a great question, and i appreciate the way that you are asking it, asking about both sides and asking it as a genuine question. it's important to know. it's important to live in a country when we are asking questions, not just accusing the other side. one of the reasons why data leaks and careful investigations like the "pandora papers" are important, is because we do not

want our political discourse to be based on innuendo but to be grounded in facts. i've not seen that, substantiated evidence with regards to most of those cases, frankly on either side. even though i got the question about real estate, about donald trump's real estate empire. the "pandora papers" is full of heads of state that cannot explain how they got hundreds of millions of dollars. i have not seen evidence that puts trump in that group either. corrupt politicians have gotten and are mostly wealthy off of their positions. his background is more an enabler of foreign corruption, spending his life in real estate, selling his brand name to anybody with money without doing due diligence. but the pandora papers is mostly about the professional enablers in the united states and corrupt figures abroad.

host: it is a good time to talk about the genesis of the "pandora papers." we did that yesterday on this program. greg miller, an investigative reporter, one of those who has been involved in the "pandora papers." and in plenty of the stories coming out this week on the "pandora papers." he answered viewer questions. one of the first he got was on how the "pandora papers" came about. [video clip] >> it came through an organization of investigative journalists, which is a group of journalists that has gathered material like this before. they are best known for "the panama papers," which won a polluter prize of five or six years ago. they work with partners around the world, because the information they get is so expensive, it is too much for any single media organization to go through.

so "the washington post" was part of a team that worked on this project for most of the past year. host: what did the information you got from the icij focus on? what were you looking for? guest: this is all offshore financial data, so that is referring to files, secret records, private business, shell company and other registrations in a number of jurisdictions around the world. basically what we are looking at is kind of this parallel economy, this secret economy, in which wealthy individuals use jurisdictions, like the virgin islands, singapore and other places, to set up shell companies where they can hide wealth. and these were files from inside the company's that those individuals work with.

so we are looking at millions of accounts. host: that was greg miller of "the washington post" yesterday on the genesis of the "pandora papers." what would you add? is there anything you can tell us or that you know about the origin of the leak of these papers or where they may have come from? guest: leaking from 14 companies, offshore financial companies, and their role is to hide money around the world for people who are extremely wealthy, and sometimes corrupt. in terms of the ultimate origin of the leaders, this group of journalists were able to obtain documents from the 14 companies. that's kind of a tradecraft that i do not know. and i would not want to know, or for all of us to know, because it is important for them to be able to protect that so they can continue to have access to this

type of information. in terms of what i would add to that, the importance of these investigations -- this is the civil society response and corollary to the international globalized, you know, manner in which corruption now occurs in an offshore system. if an oligarchy is going to be moving their money all around different jurisdictions, and ultimately destined for real estate in malibu or around the world, then civil society, journalists, need to similarly by organized and collaborating -- i think that there were 600 journalists working on this for over a year, the biggest collaboration in history -- that's an important way of how we fight back. host: in the buckeye state, john, a democrat. caller: mr. randolph, are you familiar with the case a few

years ago with bradley bergenfield and 19,000 secret bank accounts in switzerland? our politicians, he filed a whistleblower, and the department of justice put him in prison rather than go after the 19,000. hillary clinton ordered the department of justice not to dive all of the names -- divulge the names. cheryl atkinson did a report on this. i called in before to talk to her. john, you cut me off and did not finish the question i wanted. those 19,000 of our government officials have stolen money from united states citizens. the went aftery 3500 at the bottom, recovered over $9

billion. and he got a settlement. and i would like to see that pursued further. they have trees and u -- trea soned us, stealing our money and lining their pockets with secret bank accounts. thank you. host: i am sorry you felt like i cut you off. we has cheryl atkinson here on this program in december of last year, here to talk about her book. all of her appearances are available on our website at c-span.org. to the caller's question. guest: it is a great question about an important case. that case is what opened up, and ultimately help to break, swiss bank secrecy. and there was a response, a policy response and a legislative response that's now

in place with regard to the americans who were keeping their money in swiss bank accounts so they wouldn't have to pay taxes. it's a law that requires overseas banks to tell the u.s. treasury treasury department about american citizens who are holding their wealth overseas. and so, if that was what happened with bank secrecy, and we saw a legislative response, what i would like to see is something similar now with the "pandora papers," with regards to the nonbank enablers. host: clark in tennessee, good morning. are you with us? caller: yes. host: go ahead, sir. caller: i would like this gentleman to explain dark money. host: dark money, mr. rudolph.

guest: whether it is called covert money or dark money, that is a really important issue, carter. money that is not transparent. in the case of the enablers act, we are talking about not even public transparency, but it is dark to the government and to law enforcement. dark money can refer to -- it can refer to campaign-finance and the types of nonprofits that are used to, get money into elections it can refer -- get money into elections. it can refer to how money is put into our political system. i've had a report on that topic. but we live in a society where we need to live up to our values of transparent money by regulating the enablers. host: to rich in pennsylvania, a republican. good morning. caller: thank you for taking my

call. as far as the dark money, and what you have been talking about with respect to lobbyists, i want to touch on something a previous caller mentioned. i will ask it in a different way. that's influence peddling. i've read that in every other, not every, but almost every other major country influence peddling is a crime. it is not in america. can you talk about that? guest: sure. i guess it would depend on what exactly you mean by influence peddling, whether it is a lobbying or whatnot. so, we do have -- we have access to and rights to assistance with public relations and lobbying, it is part of our democracy, but it needs to be transparent first

and foremost. so there is -- there's multiple regulatory apparatuses set up around what is called foreign agents registration or lobbying systems. my focus is on the illicit, dirty money that flows through professional enablers, because that is the part of the system that does not have similar regulatory set up, as would be required in the enablers act. host: are hedge funds less regulated than a traditional bank? what are the differences versus banking regulations? guest: yes, it is surprising. but hedge funds and private equity firms are not required to have the same compliance officers that have to set up anti-money laundering programs to scrutinize their funders and to figure out where they got the money from. it's a good question and an

important issue. the part of the u.s. government that is most concerned about this is the fbi, they have been fighting it for some time. a decade ago, there was a warning on the hedge funds that were investing in silicon valley, ultimately from russia, according to research. they were using that to try to steal military secrets. a year ago, the fbi had an intelligence bulletin that said it is these hedge funds that do not have money laundering regulations that are being used by drug cartels, by organized crime, and increasingly what they pointed out was adversarial regimes to tried to control individuals. so it is a really important issue, regulating hedge funds. host: a separate issue as we get past 8:30 a.m., the bureau of

labor statistics out with their september jobs report. we are keeping you updated on that. 194,000 jobs added in september. the unemployment rate fell to 4.8%. we will talk more about that in the final segment today. that news just out. back to your phone calls for josh rudolph. edward in grand prairie, texas, an independent. caller: mr. rudolph, my concern is that we balance the books as it relates to african-americans, before we are overcrowded. and i have looked at the illicit money that the government is -- from all over the world. all of us that were kidnapped were not just jungle bunnies, some of us were kings and queens, and we still have those genetic traits. what we would like to see is the

u.s. allow us to sit at the table when we discuss racial matters, which we do not see on tv. mr. biden was put into office primarily by the congressman from south carolina, with the promise he would create a committee to look into things so we could bring about parity. that has not occurred. we observed the way that he looked at the gentleman that was debating against him, who was encouraged to do this as soon as possible. host: what would bring about parity in your mind? caller: i think a start -- the country is not even starting. allowing african-americans to settle land, like the original anglo-americans did, and giving them a small amount that could be agreed upon by the majority of the american people, say $300,000 each to start, and for 450 years of free labor. if i do not make my house

payment in three months, you come and take it. host: we are getting a little off our original topic. and we only have a few minutes left to talk about financial regulation in the wake of the "pandora papers." luis in charleston, you are next. caller: i was concerned as to whether or not the act in the papers would cover a situation where the major oil companies go to the countries on the coast of africa and have huge oil deposits offshore, but within the country's jurisdiction. it has been shown now that in the gone area -- ghana area, the leader got paid a huge amount of money and he and his son have purchased property in california. it was brought up that it was paid to him for a big oil concession. you are talking about looking into major oil companies purchasing oil drilling rights

by basically bribing leaders in small countries about her on the coast of africa. guest: great question, maurice. while oil companies per se are not one of the enablers that would be regulated by the enablers act, the way they move their money, not just the oil company, but the corrupt officials who receive large amounts of money, the way that they move their money is through enablers. on the coast of africa, for example, in angola, the kleptocrats, the daughter of a longtime leader there, isabel santos -- she became africa's richest woman, but the way she did so was the only on his job she ever had was an accountant, so she knew how to use the

world's most effective accountants. she was able to use pwc and higher accountants to run her empire. sometimes even craft the presidential decrees that made her so wealthy. and so, yes, there are oil companies and kleptocrats, but we have to focus on the way the u.s. system enables them to move their money. host: do you think that mexican cartels have assets in america? that's a question from twitter. guest: assets and networks or ways of laundering drug money to and from the united states, including cases like one of the ones i mentioned earlier, this gentleman who -- i guess this was a colombian cartel, but they used a black market peso exchange where they had a system

of currency exchange to laundering drug money back into their home country. but than the money came back to america again in the form of sitting in a trust in south dakota. host: jenny, a republican. good morning. caller: -- host: are you with us? stick by your phone. sydney in louisiana, you are next. caller: good morning. i would like to know where he is blaming all these foreign countries, russia, china and all - why don't you discuss the 131 federal judges that have just been put out that they were ruling on case courts, where they were making money by the

decision. did you hear anything about that? guest: i did hear about that case. you probably know the details better than i do, but you are right to be asking -- we cannot just focus on corruption overseas when we have corruption here as well. so that is why the legislation, like the enablers act, would focus on all u.s. persons in terms of the financial intermediaries of corruption, regardless of where it comes from. if it is anybody in the u.s. with ill-gotten gains and they are trying to stash money in south dakota, that would be covered as well. host: josh rudolph, we have seen so much from the "pandora papers" these past couple days, what more do you think is there, what should we be watching for in the coming days? guest: it has been striking, the

fact that there are 35 world leaders, 14 currently sitting heads of state, one up for reelection today in the czech republic. so i think we have to continue to watch for the fallout around the world, what will happen in jordan. that will be the first stage,. but the second is what we will do about it. are we going to finally regulate the professional enablers who are identified here? is legislation going to move on? we have not talked about the administration. is the treasury department going to take this on isaiah priority? -- on as a priority? will president biden launch a regulatory initiative around enablers, as i recommend in my research? so there is a lot we can do, including on both ends of pennsylvania avenue. host: thank you for joining us.

josh rudolph is a fellow from the alliance for securing democracy. you confided them -- can find them online, if you want "washi" continues. host: just about half an hour left in the "washington journal" this morning. around 10:00 a.m. eastern, we are i expect it to take you to a pro forma session in the house of representatives. until then, getting your reaction to september jobs numbers release in our ago by the bureau of labor statistics. the total payroll employment rose by 194 thousand in september and the unemployed rate fell by .4 percentage points to 4.8%. notable job gains occurred in leisure and hospitality, in professional and business's services, retail, transportation, and warehousing area employment in public education specifically was one area that so i distinct decline. that is topline numbers. here are the numbers