he is interviewed by republican senator and sass. watch book tv every weekend and find a full schedule or watch online anytime at tv.org. -- book tv.org. >> in the fall of 2018, historian, his daughter and dog set out on a road trip to retrace george washington's visit to the 13 original states. what came from his venture is his latest book, titled travels with george, in search of washington and his legacy. the first u.s. president said his goal was to bring the country together and he travel as far north as catering, main and as far south as savannah, georgia.

>> on this week's episode of book notes plus. you can listen on our new c-span now app. >> washington journal continues. host: we are back with our spotlight on magazine segment and we are here with dion rabouin who is going to talk to us about his recent time magazine piece. it could doom the almighty dollar. good morning. >> guest:guest: good -- good morning. thanks for having me. i've been following this central bank digital currency space for quite some time. i do some reporting on central banks and what's going on with the world with money and it was clear that no one had done a big

, exhaustive, authoritative piece about what's going on in the central bank digital currency space. the biggest question i had was, why was the u.s. so far behind. china has already rolled out there -- rolled out there currency the way all money is printed. the bills and coins that you have in your wallet right now. they are rolling out a digital version of that. you don't need a bank account. you don't need an internet it can -- you don't need an internet connection. just like you have paper currency, they are already rolling that out in cities across the country. they are testing it. across borders, using this digital currency the way that we are using dollars in the u.s.. this is already happening.

here, we are talking about a paper that may or may not come out that's going to say should we do this. here's the pros and cons. we are not even at a point where we are so country are moving forward. the big question i have was, why are we so far behind. what is contributing to that? could we catch up if we want to? host: let's make sure we are using the same terms and we know what we are talking about. the find what digital currency is. is that it coin, what exactly is digital currency? -- is that bitcoin? what exactly is digital currency? guest: a digital currency backed by the simple -- by the central bank. that is the same as a dollar or

nickel or quarter. the things you have in your pocket. the 20's, 100s, exact same. if they get a system in place, you will be able to use it to buy things at the grocery store, to shop online, to do all the things that you do. that is very different from bitcoin, cryptocurrencies that people conflate with digital currencies. digital currencies, it's an umbrella term. sandals are shoes, but all shoes aren't sandals. is very important to point out that most people don't use crypto for currency as in buying and selling. they use it more as an asset. those are digital currencies because they do have exchange value. people do pay for things with

digital currency. mostly with the dark web. one dollar on a piece of paper. that would be a piece of paper note. i want that. i will pay a dollar for that. even the value might start to increase. that would technically be paper money. the same way cryptocurrency was technically digital currency. is that the same as a dollar bill that is backed by the full faith of the u.s. government. is that -- does it have value to it? yes it does. the two are as different as those two things. host: why is the u.s. find? i want to point out the part of your article that says not only the china is ahead, but other countries. the bahamas announced the

integration of its digital sand dollar to the stock exchange while australia, malaysia, singapore are moving forward with the world's first central bank digital currency exchange program led by the central bank of central banks. it's not just china moving ahead with digital currency. it is other countries. what is the united states waiting for? guest: that was what prompted me about wanting to do this article. the answer is two or three fold. the biggest burden, i'll toss, think that keeping us as a country -- the biggest birding is the -- the biggest burden is the banking system. in china, it's the central bank, the people's bank of china

that's leading the effort. it technology -- most people pay through why the central bank has stepped in and said we are going to control how people pay for this. all those countries, the banking system, the commercial banks, chase, bank of america, wells fargo, they are equivalent to china in terms of here's what you will do for the banking system. you are not going to make a ton of money on this. you are not going to get wealthy through the system. you are going to facilitate what we tell you to do and that's how this is going to work. the system and the uss decided, we don't play that. we don't want this thing to come about and they put a lot of lobbying efforts to making sure that it does not. the american banking association put out and testify before congress that digital currencies

are a problem. they say they it can do more harm than good. they said things like, another large banking organization has come forward to say they don't even think the federal reserve has the power to do this, that it could only be authorized by congress despite the fact that it is very clear that they are responsible for printing money. the argument is, does digitally printing money count as printing money. it means less profits for them. the other issue is a lot of folks are sympathetic. they say they don't have any issues with our digital currency and digital payment system. echoed the language used by the american anchors association saying this is a bit of a solution in search of a problem.

-- american bankers association saying this is a bit of a solution in search of a problem. he doesn't really see the use for this. he said something like no one has come to me and shown me a solution for this. when i have spoken to people who were dealing with this on the ground, they say the technology, we could roll this out pretty quickly if we needed to, but the problem is the banks do not want it and we would need the banks to facilitate it. we could not do this out side of -- do this outside of the banking system. we don't really think this is necessary, we don't think it's helpful. the other thing is it's not clear decision-making in terms of who is overseeing in terms of what regulation is in charge and would be taking over not only the pushing outs and creation of this digital money, but is it

the securities and exchange commission? there are at least 10 different organizations group -- who could have some hands in this pot and all of them are battling over turf and it this is my part, this is your part. there is a huge bureaucracy problem. there is another problem with the banking system putting its foot in the way saying we don't feel like you guys should do this. there's regulators who say this is more harm than good. we don't think this is the thing we should be pushing forward on. host: let me remind our viewers that they can take part of this conversation. we are going to open up the regional lines about the future of digital currency. that means if you are in the eastern or central time zone, you can call 202-748-8000. if you are in the mountain or pacific time zone, you can call 202-748-8001.

keep in mind, you can always text us at 202-748-8003. we are always reading on social media on c-span and -- facebook.com/cspan. the question is why would the u.s. want to issue digital currency? should taxpayers be concerned? guest: that's a great question. it's one that is at the heart of this. the federal reserve has been saying they are going to put out , it was going to come out into live. i think it was, then it was september. then it was sometime soon and we still have not seen it. there is going to be a taper at some point -- at some point.

the case that i have heard through my reporting is the banking system is inherently unfair. it punishes folks at the lower end of the spectrum and rewards folks at the upper end. credit cards rewards points. that is used by wealthier upper income folks. folks in the lower economic spectrum use debit cards that come with account fees, overdraft fees, maintenance fees, things like that that staying lower income people who don't have the money to pay for those fees. a lot of the banking system does penalize poverty. that is one thing that folks have been talking about for years. you can go out and you can spend, there's no reason for you to do things like go and get a payday loan or go and get your

check cashed at some places want to charge you 5, 10, 20, $30 to cash your check. you have to get from getting your paper check to getting your paper money in your pocket. that penalizes the poor. there's also the idea that traveling cross-border transactions. i have a couple of family members whom i send money to and if there's ever an emergency, like they need $1000. i try to send them $1000. if i do a bank transfer, that's 20 take five to seven business days. -- that is going to take five to seven business days. all of these things to go to the banking system take excessive time or have a lot of fees associated with them. digital currency would eliminate all of that. you can spend digitally.

there is no middleman. that is one of the benefits. it also makes things breeze through easier where we are already doing things digitally. money is already ones and zeros in the system taking that out and using paper complicates and makes that more expensive and allows things to profit at a really spectacular level. host: several of our social media's followers want to know whether digital currency will require people to have internet access, mobile phones? are those disadvantages by requiring people to have those things if digital currency requires you to have that? guest: no, you would not need a digital desk and internet connection. you can access it -- you would not need a digital -- know you would not need an internet connection. you think of zell, paypal.

central bank currency -- digital currency would not allow -- would not require you to have an internet connection. china is pushing this forward. china is the biggest country doing this right now. you named another -- you named a number of others, but china is obviously the biggest one. if they are able to implement this, they are ruling -- rolling it at the beijing olympics and showing hey, this is how you use digital currency. if they use it first, they get to set the rules, so to speak. differentiation in the payments so we've always said the rules. the government is less so in your business than they are in china. the government -- china wants the government to see everything. if they get there first, develop it first, they get to be in the

drivers seat of the citing the rules of the road and how things go. that's another reason why the federal reserve wants to push forward on this. some folks and government want to push forward in this because they don't want to allow china to set the rules going forward. to come back to your initial question, yes you probably would. the government as a program to get people mobile phones. even if you just wanted a mobile phone or digital bank currency, you could get some of those free phones from the government. the odds are this will not place and get rid of paper money. it will be a complement to paper money. if you really do want banknotes and want to keep them in your pocket or in your mattress -- or it under your mattress, you can do that. host: let's go to our phone

lines and talk to don who was calling from las vegas. good morning. caller: good morning to you. i want to ask the question as an american, why in the world would americans want to follow in china's footsteps? there's only one reason. because china wants to control the digital, financial system through their digital currency. they are going to have, they are going to be able to see every transaction that goes on in the banking system. if america is doing the same thing, we are giving up our sovereignty. they are already starting with this starting to get the irs to spy on our bank accounts. they're going to make it so that they can stop transactions, they are going to say you cannot buy this or you can buy this. they are not going to let us use

it. the government will have complete control over our money. host: what about her concerns? guest: her concern has been voiced by a lot of americans and voiced by a lot of politicians. it hits on both sides. what you said about china is correct. they do want to know what everyone is doing. they do want to be able to step in and know about all of the transactions that are going on in the country. this is also one reason folks are pushing the u.s. and federal reserve to make and put forward a digital currency so that it would not follow the chinese model. if the chinese model becomes and the government does see and able to interject in any final -- and any financial transaction, folks are saying the federal reserve which is already looking into this question and examining says -- needs to find a way the government isn't able to see every single transaction.

it may be only transactions over $500 or one thousand dollars or certain transactions with -- certain transactions would register. that would be a question of which government agency oversees this. i think it has been pushed forward in sweden were only certain transactions are available to be seen by any government or regulatory officials. that concern is a valid one. it's the problem and solution. people are saying we want to stop china from being first, from laying out the rules of the road and saying only thing -- and saying the only way to do it is let the central bank and government view every single transaction. the u.s. needs to step in and create a system that allows more privacy, allows more freedom for

transactions. also does not allow for money laundering, fraud, things like that. there's got to be a way to do both. on one side, this is what we should. on the other side, this is what we shouldn't. host: we have to also be concerned with computer, security, viruses and all of the other concerns that we have with anything flowing through the internet and digitally. what are security concerns with digital currency? what is being done in other countries to make sure their digital currency is secure? guest: this goes back to a note joke where the police as the bank robber why did you rob the bank and he says that's because the money is there. opportunities for theft. we do have the federal deposited

insurance that controls the currency, apparatuses that prevent folks from hacking and stealing money. that is part of the development. the reason china is rolling this out is because they know hackers are going to try to get in and steal people's money. what they are doing is green out different ways to secure the system. it's not just china. eastern caribbean, south africa, all those countries you named. this system is being tested over there for exactly this because the system has to be safe. it has to be secure. here in the u.s., there's got to be a level of privacy. allows for as many people do use it as possible. this stuff isn't easy for

exactly the question you asked. this is exactly why officials are taking their time. security is just one part of the concern. i don't have the knowledge of what needs to be done for it to be secure. i can assure you that m.i.t. and places around the globe where they are looking it where to keep hackers. host: some people in congress are concerned about what a cost -- cashless economy would bring to the united states. i want you to listen and respond to this. during a house hearing, representative sylvia garcia some of her concerns about going to a cashless system. here is what she said. >> there are poor people that are not going to be able to

access basic necessities of life. even something as simple as handing the cash to a child to get their meal at school, being able to pay a cash bond when one of their friends or loved ones may be in jail, being able to put cash in an offertory basket at church. those things cannot be done with credit cards. if not everybody has a credit card. the sense of frustration for someone calls this attack, let's put ourselves in the shoes of someone who can't get to a bank, can't get to a credit union, does not have an account, does not have the capacity, the language capacity to understand and to be able to manage an account.

yes, this is about making sure that we have financial inclusion. our economic banking system needs it. it needs choices, choices for the consumer to make. host: you were talking earlier about the penalties that the or pay to use cash and check. she was talking about the penalties the poor might have debates when you go to a cashless society because they have to learn how to use, they would need a cell phone. they would need to figure out all these things. do you think her concerns are warranted? guest: the concerns she is making are some of the concerns the banking committee has made in favor of a central bank. he is also talking about accounts, every american would have an account under his proposal. the money would go directly there. you can do all the things she talked about in that speech or

in her remarks with central banks digital currency. you can transfer love -- you could transfer money straight to a loved one. no one is talking about getting rid of cash. this would be a supplement to cash. most folks use debit cards or credit cards. the people that don't could still access cash or this digital currency which would be available to them at the offering plate at church, they could do a digital offering plate. pass around the ipad, everyone puts in their sensual bank currency -- everyone puts in their central bank digital currency. you can spend this directly at stores. no paper checks, no going to your bank account waiting three days for the funds to clear. that argument is usually one in

favor of digital currency because it is different from credit cards. it is different from debit cards. it gets the money directly from the source to the person and that can be transferred anyway way the person likes. it is all available without need for internet connection. host: let's talk to ray who is calling from tennessee. caller: let me ask you this. no more yard sales. no more flea markets. no more buying cars off craig's leads -- craigslist. i bought my car from craigslist. i paid cash. explained to me how i'm going to go by a really good bedroom suit at a yard sale or a flea market using digital bitcoin. and another thing.

i read this this morning. 11 million people in russia, russia has this too. you haven't said nothing about that. 11 million people were hacked last year. digital coined. i'll listen for my answer. guest: ray, i will answer your question. you first talked about yard sales, buying on craigslist. you can do all that with digital currency. i will have a wallet that will have might central money -- central bank money in it. i would transfer that money to you. you would have one, we all have these accounts. i can still pay you cash if you prefer cash in your hand. if we all have central bank digital currency, that's the thing. i don't have chase. you don't have wells fargo. we don't have banks that don't

interact with each other. i've got my wallet. i send it to your wallet. i'm not a baller like you. i don't have a car. if i wanted to buy a car, i could pull out my phone, transfer $1000 from my wallet to your wallet, you see the money in your wallet as soon as you give me the item. it's as simple as that. the question is really just do we get folks like ray who is seemingly skeptical of what he calls digital bitcoin on board with this mission? let's not mislead ourselves and say that everybody wants this. there are lots of folks who are not trusting of the government to do these things. that's part of why we are supposed less than sparta while we are behind. we have democracy and we have different and his agent tasked

with a lot of different things. russia is another laggard. part of their digital system is relying on other institutions outside of the central bank to do this. i'm not aware of the hack he spoke of,. -- i'm not aware of the hack he spoke of. different from bitcoin and cryptocurrency. digital currency is an umbrella term. it means all of those things. all sandals are shoes, but not all choose our sandals. digital currency is all kinds of different things. all of those things are not the same thing as central bank digital currency. host: privacy and digital currency, this person writes, the government already knows how i earned every penny i have. digital currency will keep track

of every penny i spend it. where is our right to conduct our business in private? cash gives me anonymity guest:. guest: -- absolutely. that's a valid concern. how do we allow people to have privacy while also stopping things like money laundering, human trafficking, things like that. it is a tricky question, but if a cash transfer from one party to another is under a certain amount it would not transfer that it would not register. cash transactions under a certain level would only be monitored by certain agencies. it would only rise to the level of being seen by somebody like the nsa if you are transferring large amounts of cash or making consistent transfers of large quantities.

there is that back and forth. that is a legitimate concern, one that folks in the federal reserve say they are working to address and we will see how that goes. safety, security and anonymity is going to be part of any u.s.-backed central bank digital currency. i think a lot of folks who have become very distrustful and wary of the government are going to say, i don't want this even if this rolls out. i want to keep cash. i think those full would be in the minority and a shrinking minority as we use digital currency more and more. no one is talking about getting rid of cash entirely. people who are dubious of the u.s. government can keep the banknotes. they will find that fewer and fewer people are willing to accept those. host: let's talk to mike who is calling from long beach, california. caller: my question is in regard

to the value of the dollar. does this have any effect on the u.s. being the regard this being the reserve currency. what if you lose your phone? >> great question. the idea that this would be secure, you would have a password or something like your fingerprint or other method to keep it secure or someone could not find your phone and login. a lot of people keep their bank account on their phone. i think this would be the same way. it would be a digital currency. it's not like the money is in there. you have digital access. my assumption would be that you would have a new phone, you would put your account on that

new phone and you would have access and no one else would. these are open questions because we are waiting on that paper from the federal reserve. the answers to those questions are supposed to be forthcoming. we just haven't seen them. the other part of your question in terms of, i'm sorry. what was the first part of that question? host: to be honest with you, it slipped my mind as well. let's go to bill who was calling from florida. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i have two questions. the first question is i and is -- my understanding is that bitcoin is going to have 21 million. the dollar, making more dollars.

why would a person want to own a federal reserve digital currency if you would own bitcoin. that is my first question. part of that, with the u.s. government have to been -- have to ban bitcoin like it was banned in china. i understand that digital currency should be programmed. what about the federal reserve saying you have your currency here on deposit, but the economy is doing poorly. we want to goose consumption. if you don't spend 10% of your

money in the next 60 days. -- if you don't spend 10% of your money in the next 60 days, it's going to disappear. guest: i'm glad you asked the question because that helps me remember the other question the other caller asked. it's about the value of the dollar. how this could affect the value of the dollar is quite simply, if folks have another option it makes the dollar less valuable and it costs us as a country a lot of our geopolitical power. one of the main uses of the dollar because it is the world reserve funding currency, the u.s. can say we don't like what you are doing over there and we are going to restrict your access to the banking system which operates on dollars. if the dollar is not the main currency or dominating one, the

dollar is used in like 70% of transactions worldwide. it is over 90% of fx transactions. if that starts to go down, the others would lose -- the dollar would lose value and we would lose some of our geopolitical power. very important to watch there and i don't think the development, experts that i talked to say the development is not going to be the thing that does that. what could do is open up the currency space a lot more than it has been. back to your question, most folks i talked to who are the regulators and authorities see bitcoin and the dollar central bank digital currency as two separate entities that don't have much to do with each other. there is a fixed amount, federal reserve cannot print more bitcoin.

no one can. there is a finite amount of it. colors the call then, they prefer that. they know -- some of your callers that called in, they preferred that. it will still be a choice. it is not going to be do i want a or b. it is going to be do i won't -- do i want a and b? there is a lot that could be very rare. it could be something that could be used pay for things down the road if i sell it. do i want to hold this thing to make everyday purchases? to answer the last part of your question in terms of could the federal reserve take away percentage of your money. that is something that has been proposed. one of the things that people

who backed the central bank currency says -- you better spend this buying 30 days or were taking it away but more the fed could inject everyone's bank accounts with $1000 and say ok this $1000 is only there for the next month. if you don't use it, you lose it. the idea is there will be laws in place, structures, regulations. they could not go into your bank account and take the money out. it is a thing that comes down to trust of the government and trusting the guardrails that are put up. host: let's go to george who was calling from new mexico. caller: i have a couple of questions. the first one will be is this some sort of situation where you are saying that it is a fixed

value but yet it is traded on the market and the $5,000 or whatever it is now? what if it is $15,000 -- $35,000 or whatever it is now? what if it is $15,000 tomorrow russian mark another thing. this country has been hacked -- what if it is $15,000 tomorrow? another thing, you are telling me that this is going to be secure? i don't believe it. i think this falls under the category of rainbow do which was sold in the 1930's. it doesn't make any sense to me guest: guest:. thank you. guest:guest: -- to be clear i'm not telling you anything. the authorities behind this are saying if and when we do this it will be secure.

i'm sure there is a technique if you wanted to talk, they would tell you how the situation or system could be secure to keep hackers out. that is not something i'm telling you. i'm telling you that this information will be or should be available in a paper presented i the federal reserve. i'm not saying it will be secure and there will be rainbow stew for everybody. i'm telling you that is part of the stock -- art of the discussion. we are conflating cryptocurrency and central bank cryptocurrency. it is not going to fluctuate in value. it will be backed by the full faith and trust of the government. that's where it will go. it will not fluctuate in value. it will not be on the open market like bitcoin. cryptocurrency is not really currency because it fluctuates

wildly in value. the time it would take to pay an item at $100, i want to pay for that in bitcoin. it could be worth $10 or $90 with bitcoin. that's one of the things -- that's one of the arguments in favor of digital currency rather than cryptocurrency, which is an asset that fluctuates in value 24 hours a day and can swing wildly as we seen this week. 20% from where we started last week, where we ended last week. that would be backed by the government, that we would know has the assets and federal reserve which can perform overnight market to keep the values steady the same way they do with the value of different things like the u.s. dollar, the greenback we all keep in our pockets.

difference between bitcoin, cryptocurrency -- bitcoin cryptocurrency and digital currency. host: is it eight if ra -- is it a if or a when the u.s. will go to digital currency? guest: jay powell has not been an advocate for this. it has been governor brainard who has been leading the charge onthat will be big whether we se president biden come out and renominate powell as fed chair or nominate someone new. most folks think will be leo brainard. that is very lucky to push forward on central bank digital currency. it is almost certain when in a short timeframe.

with jerome powell until the hand is forced. at that point we will go forward and have to move into the space. it's a matter of when and the timeframe depending on who is leading the federal reserve. host: thank you for being here with us this morning and talking just through this time magazine article. the u.s. losing the global race to decide the future of money and it could doom the almighty dollar. thank you so much. guest: thanks so much for having me. host: we would like to thank our other guests, callers and viewers of washington journal. stick with us. we are back tomorrow morning for another addition. have a great saturday and continue to wash your hands. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2021] ♪

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