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our guests are keith mueller and fred ulrich. in syracuse university's patrick penfield talks about delays in the u.s. supply chain and the impact on the economy. washington journal is next. host: this is the washington journal for october 18. a new poll asks people about the role of government. most respondents told the polling companies they think many things could be done by individuals or businesses. there is more to the poll on people's opinions of government power. we will ask you to tell us what you think about the role of government, whether you would prefer a reduced government role, maybe you think government needs to do more. (202) 748-8001 for republicans,

democrats (202) 748-8000 and independents, (202) 748-8002. texas your thoughts at (202) 748-8003. you can also post on facebook and our twitter feed is available @cspanwj. the headline is americans revert to favorite reduced government role. joining us is to talk is the u.s. social research director. thank you for your time. guest: hello. host: what prompted this poll? we take up all -- guest: we take a poll every year. it is called our government survey. we ask on a different topic and have been doing this since 2000. in september we asked all about government, what americans think about government power, all

levels of government, federal state, and local on their performance. quite great trends updating this year after year. host: one of the specific questions is about the role of government as far as doing too much. 52% of those respondents said that was the case. 42% said government needs to do more to solve problems. comparing that to 2020, 143% wanted government to do more. those are the numbers. give us the context of the result? guest: to repeat, we give people three options, would you rather have more government services, less government services, or keeping the status quo. we have not asked it every year. the largest response is always a preference for less services and reduced taxes. last year that dipped.

the 42% had been 56% earlier in the decade. in september, the final months of the trump administration, still in deep lockdown, that point only 42% wanted less government. a record high at that time said they wanted more government, even if more taxes. this year we went back towards normal with 50% thing we want less government and less taxes in the present wanting more government and more taxes -- host: one of the other questions you ask people about the government having too much power, we will show people the results. that questions proposed amongst republicans, democrats, and independents come 82% of republicans saying they thought the government had too much power compared to 59% of

independents. 63% of democrats say government has the right amount of power. how these numbers compared to previous ones? guest: that is a question where we did not see any change in overall attitudes. we had 54% this year sing the federal government has too much power. you're saying there has not been a change. the response is typically the government has too much power. there has been a huge change by party. republicans typically are the ones that think the government has too much power but there less likely to think that when there is republican in office. last year 61% of republican said the government had too much power, this year that went up to 82%. 82 percent is about what republicans were saying turn the obama years. that is a typical attitude. democrats said 51% said the

governments had too much power, that has plunged to 19%. in the context of everything that is happening in washington with discussions of infrastructure spending is that 19% among democrats is a record low, even lower than the percentage during the obama years. democrats obviously in more of a growth mode in terms of government. host: you also asked people about what the government does and whether those types of things could be done by individuals or businesses. can you give us the context? guest: this is a trend that goes back to 1992. you think the government is doing too many things that should be left individuals and businesses and should to be doing more to solve the country's problems? these attitudes have waxed and waned over the years depending on circumstances in the country and the presidency, whether it

is republican and democrat and how active they are. last year we saw one of the rare times that half or more of americans said they wanted the government to be doing more. it was 54% last year, this year it has fallen back to 43%, which is more typical of recent years. huge party differences on that. 80% of republicans think the government is doing too much and only 18% of democrats agree. host: as far as this poll is concerned, any other interesting things you found other than the questions we had talked about? guest: just that there is eight tied that affects everybody in terms of the circumstances of the country, whether pandemic or a recession. demand for government changes a bit.

it seems so much by party, there two factors going on. what is interesting is to follow the independents. on that basis, attitudes have been steady on these questions, except for last year, when independents clearly showed more desire for government than they usually do. this year it is back to normal. host: the u.s. social research director for gallup who took this poll. you can find the results online, people's perceptions and views of a reduced government role. thank you for your time. we will turn to you for the remainder of the hour as far as you view government. maybe you agree with those on the pole as far as seeing reduced role of government. maybe you think more needs to be done. here is your chance to call and let us know. republicans (202) 748-8001, democrats (202) 748-8000, and

independents, to give your perception of government role, (202) 748-8002. you can also text us at (202) 748-8003 and poster a social media sites as well as some of you did. richie says when it comes to the role of government, the government is supposed to protect our rights. the bigger question is who the government works for, not necessarily the size. of course i oppose socialism and communism and fascism, but i also oppose emasculated governments, which is what we have now come as far as needs of the poor, the working and middle-class know. on facebook adding after seeing government screwup all it touches, i want to see it contained. then saying if we had a government that works for the broad mass of people, this would not be happening. some of the thoughts.

you connect doors under the facebook page or if you want to send us your thoughts on twitter or text as well. eugene starts us off come outline for independents in albuquerque. what you see as far as your comfort level. caller: americans are concerned about big government. we need government to ensure our basic rights, our constitutional rights. we also need to have united nations rights. the universal declaration of human rights to ensure everyone has a right to food and housing and health care. the united nations -- [indiscernible]

the u.s. is violating international law by not enforcing the united nations human rights. host: why do you think bigger government will give us that? caller: all the other countries like in europe or in canada where they make sure everyone has health care. host: that is eugene in albuquerque giving us thoughts on the role of government. our guests reference this. it's at republicans and independents become increasingly likely of saying there is too much regulation of business, less likely there is right amount, saying 72% of republicans and 42% of independents say there is too much regulation. the remainder of independents divided evenly be saying it is

too little regulation. adding more democrats last year said this was the right amount of regulation involved. that is a topic of business when it comes to the topic of health care. one of the topics when it deals with how the government deals with these issues is vaccine mandates. that was part of the discussion yesterday. it was the arkansas governor talking about republican legislatures across the nation pushing back on vaccine mandates. here's part of that conversation from yesterday. >> republican state legislatures have gotten aggressive and trying to insert government either into overreach on local government decisions or on private sector decisions. are you concerned about the direction of your party, that there is the sense of -- it is not a small government party, it is a my government my way party, at least in the state legislatures. >> is an important debate on

liberty. my view has always been, which i believe is consistent with the principles of our party, that lets stay out of interfering with private business decisions. these are not large employers. they could be a small employer that wants to protect their business and their employers and their customers. they often have those decisions. if you say the government can come in until the employers what to do, the same thing -- the next thing is they can say we should not have drug-free workplaces. i think that is wrong. i am a former head of the dea and i think employers ought to make decisions. if someone does not comply they lose their job. we require that in many different sensitive businesses across the country. i think when you're talking about a restraint on government, let's be consistent. i do not want the federal

government doing the mandate, i do not want the state government doing a mandate. let's try to be consistent. host: vaccine mandates part of the conversation when it comes to the role of government. gallup telling us that americans are telling them they favor a reduced government role. maybe that is your opinion. maybe it is not. call and let us know as far as the role of government and the level of comfort you have with it. (202) 748-8001 for republicans, (202) 748-8000, and independents, (202) 748-8002. if you wish to texas, -- if you wish to text us, you can do so at (202) 748-8003. this is from our twitter feed, saying i would prefer smaller government, but that would necessitate that corporations lower their profit priority. bc venice saying there's no

question government is bloated. with congress out of control and nepotism running rampant, those charged with our security abandon their posts long ago. dump the thousand generals at the pentagon, the war profiteers, this current congress. diane in her twitter feed, saying when it comes to the role of government, america seems to be missing history. the effects of the big government and popular dependency on the government is full of genocide and death. that is some of the opinions from our facebook and twitter feeds. samples in the washington post wrote about the gallup poll, saying "over the past 29 years by gallup strand on this question, there is only one other time when half the country favor were active role for government. this team in the immediate aftermath of the attacks on september 11 of 2001, when the desire for more government was

focused on security issues and defending the country from foreign terrorists rather than on whether to spend more to do with health and economic issues. other than that moment in last year, americans have been wary of too much government. the reality confronts president biden as they pushed ahead to pass the bipartisan infrastructure package and the democrats package of social initiative and climate programs. like bill clinton and barack obama, mr. biden faces the twin challenges of asking voters to support more government while trying to persuade the government -- the public the government is capable of doing what the president says is needed." taking issue at the gallup poll, talking about the role of government. yesterday secretary pete buttigieg talking about the administration's efforts, particularly with climate change. we will show that in a bit. you can also calls on the lines, post on our facebook feed, our

twitter feed, if you want to tell us about the role of government and what you think is the proper role. randy in madison, wisconsin, independent line. what is your thinking? caller: if you think about it, look at the role the government plays in our society right now. all of the taxes that we pay for our roads, our health care, all sorts of medicare and medicaid, all of that stuff, i do not understand where this limited role comes in? quite honestly government plays a large role in society and a beneficial role. the fact that you have this gallup poll, gallup is a partisan organization to begin with. i do not understand why you think people think this is a limited role? host: these are the people telling gallup they prefer a limited role. caller: but it is not even true.

host: let's go to keith in denver, colorado. democrats line. caller: i have to agree with the last caller. we have other polling that we should cite. build back better, when you go issue by issue, overwhelming majority of americans, both republicans, independents, and democrats agree with most of the stuff in the build back better, from universal pre-k to two years of unity college and expanded medicaid, medicare -- republicans call it socialism. they say things like keep your hands off. that shows the disconnect, correct?

host: let's start with the gallup poll. what you think is wrong? caller: the caller proceeding me, i am a pr person, 30 years in the pr business. gallup is rated c. methodologically, they conflated the role of government with taxes. right there there is a flaw in the design. host: why is that? caller: when you say the role of government, that is where the question should end. when you say lower taxes, then you are mixing two elements. the average person cannot separate that. when you ask them, are you for

free government funded universal pre-k, 70 plus percent of all americans say we want that. host: you cite that figure. what do you base that on? caller: these are not democratic polls. i challenge your producers to pull up polling on the build back better elements from various sources. host: that is keith in denver. one of the questions, you think the federal government has too much power or the right amount of power or too little power? this is from gallup showing the trend over time going back to 2002 between 2012 and 2014. 60% of those say the government having too much power, that is ascending to 54% in the current day.

when it comes to the right amount of power, that trending as far as the blue line, as low as 32% as far as 2013 and onward , and up to 36% in the current day, 9% of american sickly government has too little power. that is the result of the gallup poll. you can talk about that we think about the role of government and what you favor as far as the role of government is concerned. republicans, (202) 748-8001, democrats (202) 748-8000, independents (202) 748-8002. this is a person on our twitter feed saying reduced government role means to let the wealthy segment of our country run their businesses the way they want, which includes not protecting the workers. poor people do not need help from the government, they just need stronger bootstraps? mike on twitter saying there be more control enforced

regulation. the role has to be what it is now but it will have to level with people before much longer about the realities the world faces. those are some of the transfer mark twitter feed. -- those are some of the trends from our twitter feed. climate change was one of the topics pete buttigieg talked about, prickly as efforts in the biden administration packages dealing with climate change, some of those efforts may go by the wayside in an effort to come up with a final bill. here are some of the discussion from yesterday. >> a clean electricity standard will likely be dropped because joe manchin says he cannot support it. you supported a clean electricity standard during your campaign. how disappointed are you this will potentially not be in the bill? >> the administration and the president are committed to bold climate action, exactly what legislative form that takes is what is being negotiated right now. the bottom line is we have to

act on climate for the good of our children and for the good of our economy. i viewed this as a planetary maintenance issue. the longer you take to do something about it the more it will cost in livelihoods as well as lives. we need to act. the president has lead on this from day one, rejoining the paris climate court. while the piece i worked on in transportation is limited, it is a big one when it comes to making more affordable and easier to drive electric vehicles and dealing with carbon and other sectors of transportation. we have to get this done. our future depends on it. host: people tell gallup they prefer a reduced government role. you may agree or disagree. this is scott in thomasville, georgia. good morning. caller: i am in the majority with that gallup poll. i do think government needs to

be less in our lives. we function better by not being managed and micromanaged. my children have taught me that. the more i tried to control them and tell them what they need to do, generally they do not do very well. sometimes when i let them feel the pain of their bad decisions, feel the pain of things they do not do that they should do, a lot of times they adjust. they do not adjust to me. host: why do you think that is the right approach when it comes to the role of government? caller: because i think as people we do not like to be controlled. that was one of the good things in the trump administration. i do not think he did any great things, but government was so busy inviting -- busy in fighting the economy and people were productive in and of themselves.

when you start trying to overtax people and try to control things and people -- a democrat said ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country. we do not need to rely on government, we need to rely on ourselves. host: that is scott in georgia. next arlington, virginia, independent line about the role of government. your comfort level with the of government. good morning. caller: good morning. everything is controlled by corporations. government does not have everything except the military. everything we purchase in this country is controlled by corporations. it was the government? the government is the congress, the white house. there controlled by business.

people do not understand. everything is controlled by the rich, the corporations, the people who have money. they take your taxes right when you make it. host: you think the role of government should be reduced? caller: no. it should be turned around. take money out of politics. the majority of people, 99% should be in control. who is in control now are the two parties and the rich people. they spent over $30 trillion since 9/11 until today. this new congress now, they were asking for help for the poor people, they said that is not right. the republicans want to spend

money and come up with our freedom. host: next will hear from randy in williamsburg, virginia. caller: good morning, america. the make america great again will back better, all of these slogans ring hollow for me. the problem is at the state and local level, let's take education for example, students far outnumber teachers, and local governments hire the most people in every town in america. what happens is small business is not allowed to compete with not-for-profit and local businesses with national not-for-profit and all of these other companies that are side of

fossils for a lot of government employees. small businesses is never given a chance to make a difference in their local communities. host: how does that relate to the role of government, or the role of government you are comfortable with? caller: let's take a look at bike paths. we have one that people love, but to be honest with you they have about 1000 riders a day and that is a stretch. there is a not-for-profit capital could capital trail foundation, and like last person called and, the owners who are on the board, there on many boards of the local not-for-profit. that not-for-profit now controls tens of millions of dollars that the department of transportation

gives to them from the federal government, and they don't it out to the local not-for-profit that are held unaccountable and demonstrate no measurable improvement in anything. host: that is randy in williamsburg, virginia. we will hear from carl in chicago, democrats line. caller: the biggest problem in this conversation is defining who is the government? are we talking about the employees of the federal government? are we talking about congress and the senate? when the republicans have it, they want nothing to do. host: what lead you to believe that? caller: just take a look at the

last two groups of republicans who have been in office. when bush was in, most of the money went to the war we knew we were not going to win. then when trump got in, money only went to the states republicans controlled. host: that is carl in chicago. just to show you the results of apollo, you heard our guest talking about it, when asked if the government was doing too much, 52% responding in that way. when it comes to the question of government needing to do more to solve problems, 42% saying that compared to 2020 when 43% wanted government to do more to solve

problems. 82% of republicans as well as 59 percent of independents in 19% of democrats saying the government has too much power. 60% of democrats and the government has the right amount of power. you may agree or disagree with those thoughts. you may:, republicans (202) 748-8001, democrats (202) 748-8000, and independents, (202) 748-8002. maggie in ohio on our independent line. caller: i just wanted to say i think the government is completely out of control. i do not want them trying to force a shot into my arm. i can make decisions myself. i have immunity to the vaccine. i do not want marxism in this country and that is what we are having, and i think a lot of people do not understand that is what we are having. it is clear if you watch what is happening and what they're

trying to do some the control they are trying to take away from your life and put it in their hands. i do not think bill will put up with it -- i do not think people will put up with it. host: that is maggie in ohio, giving us a call when it comes to issues with the vaccine and the vaccine mandates. this is from calmly of falls, maine -- this is from columbia falls, maine. caller: i want to thank you for taking my phone call. i have a simple question. for this 2400 page bill the democrats want to try to pass. why cannot that be held in print so the public can read and see what is in that bill that they will not let anyone know about. host: there is some finalization going on. since we are asking about the role of government you're comfortable with, what would you

respond? caller: i think the democrats are trying to hold back. they should let everyone know what is going on. host: david in maine on a republican line. yesterday you heard dr. fauci, particulate taking a look at the upcoming holidays in the comfort level he feels as far as what he is recommended to people. here is part of that discussion. >> we know the best way to keep safe is to be vaccinated. what are your guidelines for the upcoming holidays? will you be giving out halloween candy? what we do thanksgiving, christmas, the other holidays? >> i believe that particularly in vaccinated people, if you are vaccinated and your family members are vaccinated, those were eligible. young children are not yet eligible, that you can enjoy the holidays from you can enjoy halloween, trick-or-treating,

and certainly thanksgiving with your family and christmas with your family. that is one of the reasons we emphasize why it is so important to get vaccinated, not only for your own safety and that of your family, but also for the good of the community to keep the level of infection down. when you do that there is no reason you cannot enjoy the holidays in a family way the way we have traditionally done it all along. host: this is from california, independent line. whereabouts in california is fortuna? caller: it up in the redwoods, god's country. host: joran, go ahead -- you are on, go ahead. caller: to answer the question concerning the role of government, it seems to be important to consider whether the people in power have an

altruistic concern, a real concern of the well-being of the people or if their intent is malevolence. to cut to the chase, democracy is no better than fascism if the people in power, the majority hate the minority. the only way this democracy works is love. if it is run with love than the government stands a good chance of helping people. if the government does not have a true interest in helping people, then less government control would seem to be better, less government involvement. host: how would you rate the current rate of government as far as their interest in helping people? caller: it seems to be governments throughout history, go back as far as you want, eventually becomes more of a self-serving entity and a promotion of its own power than actually helping individuals.

i guess everybody can judge that. host: you relate that same sentiment to the federal government at large or your local government? caller: the thing is the larger a group the more power it has, inherently dangerous it becomes to the individual, especially one that does not agree with that. host: let's go to ron in springfield, virginia. caller: there is a definite role of government. that role should be the essential things that benefit americans. the one thing that is lacking in all these conversations is we need single-payer health care. a big percentage of the population already has that. all of the military, medicare, medicaid, they need to expand that to the rest of the population. there are things the government should not be doing.

that is things like occupying and palming multiple countries at any given time, ensuring the multinationals such as apple are sitting on hundreds of billions of dollars in cash. due to forced labor overseas. there are things the government should do. the interstate system might be something we can point to. a new interstate system for high-speed rail. the government does have a role, but not what it is doing now. the government is out of control because it works for -- our congress works for special interest. in their work for us as americans they have a central role. host: why do highlight health care as far as one of those things government should be focused on? caller: that is critical. the middle class is getting reamed. the poor, their health care is

subsidized, the rich are fine, the middle class, with the advent of the high deductible health care plans, the middle class is getting destroyed. people have to go bankrupt. maybe people can call in, people who broken arm and it cost them $20,000. health care is essential. that is one thing that benefits everybody. like the interstate system, there are things the government can do to benefit all people. that should be the focus, not just picking and choosing those things the top donors want such as war and destroying our manufacturing base and things like that. host: that is ron in virginia. we are basing it from the results in a gallop general attitudes when it comes to the role of government, those

favoring a reduced government role, even the gallup poll saying government is doing things people and businesses should be doing. you can agree or disagree with the ideas that some of our colleagues have brought to the table. (202) 748-8001 for republicans, (202) 748-8000 for democrats, and independents (202) 748-8002. this is sherry from our twitter feed saying when it comes to the role of government, when the government is the largest employer in insurance companies are the richest, something is very wrong in the u.s.. this is from tony off of our twitter feed, saying when it comes to the idea of taxes, which a caller brought up earlier, saying taxes are the cost of government. taxes need to be considered when discussing the role of government. then from a viewer saying reduced government roles means

the next catastrophic weather event does not come to help you or your property and then you're left to rebuild your own business. for the role of government, those are some of the things being shared on our various feeds. our facebook page, you can also call us on the line. betty and elizabeth town kentucky, democrat line, your next up. caller: thank you for taking my call. i am concerned when he talks about the gallup poll, i want to know what is the sample they were using? they went into the southern states they would get more towards whatever the republicans are doing. what is the sample they are using? the other thing is we are a republic. we are not a democracy. we elect representatives who

supposedly represent our interests. the only problem we have is we have lifelong senators and representatives. they have made a career out of it. that was not the original intent. the original intent was you would serve a certain amount of time and he would leave, and there would be a rotation, which would keep fresh ideas coming in. we need to understand that there is always going to be a need if the people do not recognize we are the government. we the people are the government, according to our original documents that tells us what we are to do as the government. it is our responsibility. host: when it comes to the current level of comfort you have with the role of government

, where's that place for you as far as what government should be doing or not doing? caller: it depends on what they are doing. i do not think the government should be in areas such as vaccinations. that is something being americans, we are stubborn and we do not want anybody to tell us what to do. that is running against a brick wall. do not pick a fight in an area you cannot win. host: betty in kentucky, democrats line. also hundred democrat line, anthony from new york. caller: thank you for being america's complaint department and i appreciate your patience with all of the colors. i want to give you a quote from an 18th-century lawyer and writer.

he has had a democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government, it can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. from that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most from the public treasury and democracy always collapses. the average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. these nations have progressed from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness. host: that is the quote, but what you think about the role of government? what is your personal preference? caller: we have gone through those cycles that he had warned us. he said it is the human condition that reigns supreme. we can never deviate from what ultimately happens in all

governments, whether it is communism, socialism, capitalism, they all meet the same brick wall where people selfishness and self interest always rules the day, and then we end up back to a dictatorship. magazines with the vaccines we are at a dictatorship. the bank bailouts, the country is broke. nancy is back for more money. host: piercing the government is doing too much. caller: it is broke. don't you see it? nancy is surrounded by a 17 acre estate with all the money in the world but she is still a politician. chuck schumer, the same thing. host: let's hear from eleanor in germantown, tennessee. caller: i think the problem is they are never held accountable for what they do. they break the law because they do not know what the law is.

they do not know their own job descriptions. they are never held accountable. if they would stop the criminal activity they would have just the right amount of power. host: give me an example of that. why do you think that? you said they break the law. give me an example. caller: i heard a guy who is having a town hall say he had never read the constitution and did not care, we do not need it. host: as far as level of government, what is your comfort level? caller: what they have real authorization to do. stop appointing bureaucrats to make up the rules, that they cannot pass a law to authorize.

if they would learn their job descriptions. host: that is eleanor in germantown, tennessee. one of the many calls this morning about the role of government. this gallup poll we referenced saying when it comes to the recent poll taken, general attitudes, more americans reverting to reduce government role. there is details within the poll , you can find it at gallup.com. as well as sample sizes, you can look there. highland park, illinois. hello. good morning. caller: in the past, government has helped our country considerably. many of us have medicare. to meet is the greatest value. we are all helping each other stay healthy and keep healthy. we saved the world from

hitler's. if it was not for the united states, europe would all be under fascism. government has a role. we are not perfect. when government is called to do something, we do it. we have a terrific interstate system. you can try from miami to seattle and not stop anywhere if you had that much fuel. i do not think people should be so pessimistic about our government. host: when you see polls that say as far as the current trend is concerned showing a favoring of reduced government role, what you think of that? caller: i think people are watching the right wing media too much. they are being influenced by propaganda. just look around and see what government does for you. it is amazing. let's say transportation.

look around and try to be thankful. that is all i can say. thank you very much. host: that is lou from highland park illinois. you're welcome to call in and the 15 minutes or so we have left. (202) 748-8001 for republicans, (202) 748-8000 for democrats, and independents, (202) 748-8002 . jennifer jones saying small government is why corporations have so many loopholes. republicans have claimed to be the party of small government but they've made sure the government makes it easier for the rich to stay rich. richard somerville saying it seems we get is less taxes and loss for rich people to get away with whatever, the same with corporations, bankers, and pharmaceuticals. if we spend $600 or we try to make money the same way rich people do we go to jail.

al from facebook saying all of these paul's have been all over the place. one make -- one week the majority of americans support a thing come the next week americans oppose the same thing. week to week americans do not what they favor apart from answering poll questions while being uninformed about the topic. you can agree or disagree with those topics. our viewers from facebook and twitter. joe in ohio, republican line. caller: how are you doing today? host: i am well. how are you? caller: i believe the reason we have the government is protection of our borders and the american people. beyond that, there are areas this government has spread into that they have no business being in. host: why do you think it is limited to those two things? caller: that is the way the

constitution was written. they have no business being in education. that is the responsibility of the state and local governments. they have no business being involved with the drug companies and mandating vaccines. that is an individual choice. that is the way our constitution is written. my point is the constitution was created so the federal government was designed to support the states, not to take over from the states. host: you think states have the right role or response as far as the role of government? you think they have the right amount of power? caller: i think they've given up power. they have allowed the federal government to take over because politicians are corrupt. our entire system, we have so many corrupt politicians there never held accountable.

you've had a couple callers call in the last 15 minutes, like the gentleman reading with a guy from the 1800s wrote. he nailed it. our government is corrupt. all they care about is their power. they do not give a dam about the people. host: let's hear from david in new york. caller: can you hear me? host: you are on. caller: a lot of talk about the constitution and of people would just read the preamble to the constitution, it describes perfectly clearly what the government is about and what it is supposed to do. three things. it can be read in less than two minutes out loud. if people would hear that, they might be able to assess whether the representatives are actually

living up to the purpose of the constitution. host: what would uss? -- what would you assess? caller: it says the purpose is to provide for the common defense. this is been done in many ways. it has also been overdone. the second thing is it says to promote the general welfare. one would assume that all bills coming out of congress would be to promote the welfare of the population, which it does, depending on what part of the population you are. there is a great deal of the population which is not benefiting. the last one is to maintain liberties for everyone. depending again on who you are, how much liberty you have.

it is a mixed bag. it is not perfect. it seems, as your previous caller said, the politicians seem to have lost the idea of what the government is supposed to do. host: let's hear from marcia in north carolina. republican line. caller: hello. you are asking a woman about the laws and what laws they had broke. the laws they had broke his not securing the border. host: you are still there. go ahead. you are still on. caller: another law is the mandates are illegal. there is no executive order.

pfizer and them are illegal because it is still an emergency. it has not been passed. i could go on and on. host: to level should government be operating? how much influence should it have? caller: it should be operating in our security. american security. if you notice the illegals do not have to take a shot. the people coming into the hospitals and taking over are not following the mandates that biden has put forward in the media because it is illegal. host: the fda itself fully approving that pfizer vaccine, which from the release on august 23, saying they prove that for covid-19, the vaccine will be

now be marketed -- it goes on from there to give us the status of where vaccines are. we are talking about the role of government. the gallup poll saying when it comes to general attitudes, americans favoring a reduced role of government. in washington, d.c., this is george. independents line. caller: one of our principal problem comes from how the two party system has devolved. a few suggestions as to how we might improve that. one would be stripped dollar limits on contributions and banning any corporate contributions weather above the table or below the table. the second would be term limits on the house of representatives, limiting their terms to 16 years total and the senate 18 years total, the supreme court 18 years. creating some type of stakeholder for interest of the future in the interest of children as opposed to

stakeholders with money promoting their personal interests. finally, mandatory education in history and government. host: those are mechanics. what you think about the role the government plays? how would you identify that? caller: how would i identify it? the problem is in some areas it is too broad and in some areas it is too narrow. depending on your political persuasion that defines which areas you think it is too broad and narrow. there is too much money put into defense. it is taking over a lot of the country by our militaristic attitudes. we do not need 800 basis and the kind of money that goes into the defense department. host: let's go to harmon in seattle, washington. caller: hello. the question that you are asking

, that depends on which party is in power. you have these warmongers, they do not want to stay in afghanistan for 20 years and spend trillions of dollars. as soon as somebody tries to get them to take care of the people in this country, poor people come all of this kind of stuff, they ask the question where we would get the money, who will pay for it? that is the first thing they ask. host: you have democrats in control of the white house in 2 -- democrats in control of the white house and congress. what would you say is the role of government? caller: they should be very involved, especially with this pandemic and all of this kind of stuff. we have these two people acting like they are democrats, you understand, when they are really republicans being controlled by mitch mcconnell and all of this kind of stuff so they cannot get anything done.

that is the same thing about these other people. when they are in power they say we do not want abortions, but as soon as the kid comes here, they are through with him than. host: we will hear from john in breezewood, pennsylvania. democrat line. how are you? caller: i want to make perfectly clear i've been a candidate for federal office in united states congress. i lost. democrat joe manchin is a great union democrat and a great democrat that represents the united mine workers. number two, are you still there? host: we are asking people about the role of government. what you think? caller: i believe the federal

government has overextended its constitutional authority immensely. one of the things the other people do not talk about that is in the constitution, it says the government is required to maintain postal routes. that is in the constitution. you can read it. host: when it comes to overextending its authority, will you offer as an example? caller: the coinage of money. the federal reserve being created and has totally destroyed the u.s. economy. totally unconstitutional. in the constitution there is nothing about a private central bank issuing our money and charging us interest. abraham lincoln was right when he made the greenback. host: that is john in pennsylvania. mary owens from twitter saying federal control is necessary. states prove they are incapable of self-rule so right now we need a lot of it. gaylord campbell texting us

saying if you take citizens united out of government and increase corporate and the 1% taxes, we need better environmental protection. people on the role of government. let's hear from jason in maryland, republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. first of all, as far as the government extending itself, i've been sitting back for the past four years. we have seen the fbi manipulating evidence, doctoring evidence, there is no accountability from anybody anywhere. hillary clinton, it has been proven she was behind the whole russian, but there is no accountability. for you to say the pfizer vaccine is fully approved, lemme ask you something. can you sue pfizer? caller: but you can not sue them

, so it is not fully approved. host: finishing off calls this morning as far as the role of government. we appreciate all of you who participated this morning. we are going to talk about congress as they come back in session. axios congressional reporter alayna treene will join us. some of the things to watch out for in congress, including negotiation on the president's agenda. later on, we will hear from university of iowa researchers on the rate of covid's in rural areas of the u.s. that and more coming up on washington journal. ♪ >> this week on the c-span networks, house and senate will

be in session. also, live coverage of several congressional hearings. on tuesday, that senate finance committee considers the nomination of tucson police chief chris magnus to be the u.s. customs and border commissioner. later, that january 6 committee will vote preferred stephen bannon to the justice department for criminal contempt. wednesday, 9:30 a.m. eastern, live on c-span3, the senate foreign relations committee holds a hearing for a few nominees, among them nicholas burns, who president biden nominated to beat the u.s. ambassador to china and rahm emanuel, for u.s. ambassador to japan. at 10:00 a.m. eastern on

c-span3, merrick garland will make his first appearance before the house judiciary committee issues facing justice department. homeland security secretary hunter mayorkas will appear before the senate judiciary committee -- alejandro mayorkas. also, head over to c-span.org for scheduling information or to stream video. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. >> washington journal continues. host: our first guest alayna treene with axios. she serves as a congressional reporter to talk about congress as they come back and the things they have due. guest: thanks for having me. host: that way you framed it

yesterday is that when it comes to congress, they are beginning eight year end sprint. guest: congress has been sprinting for a bit, but i think the next few weeks and until the end of the year is going to be a lot of chaos on capitol hill. there is a lot that democrats in particular but lawmakers in general have to get done. it starts with their reconciliation package, the massive social spending package that president biden and democrats have been trying to put together for several weeks or months now. it is hitting its crucial time period. there is a lot of sticking points still, like prescription drug reform, a lot of things they need to work out. have a deadline that they are

trying -- they want to try to get an agreement by the end of the month if not pass it by the end of the month, which will be very difficult even how many details they still need to iron out. they also have their infrastructure bill that the house needs to pass. it passed the senate in august. it is still waiting to pass the house because a lot of progressives want that other social spending package past first --p-- passed first. there is a lot of other things that congress has pushed off -- government funding. they did a short-term funding bill in september that pushed it off until december. summer third we will need -- december 3 we will need a government funding bill to avoid a shutdown. there is also the debt limit. they will need to extend that again in december or january,

depending on how long it takes to run out of the short-term money that they just extended. and then a lot of other things, like national defense authorization spending, voting rights bill. there is a lot they need to get done. it is going to be crucial to fulfilling the president's agenda, but also the midterms are creeping up on us, just over a year away. it is going to be key for democrats. host: when it comes to the reconciliation vote, he said no top line figure has been made yet, but programs that may go by the wayside, is there a sense of what programs might be on the chopping block? guest: a few things are being discussed. if you ask progressives and moderates, they are going to

have two different answers. there has been some discussion of cutting part of the medicare expansion. there is something that someone like bernie sanders is saying there is no chance that that gets cut, but that is something that we are hearing that is being looked at as potential things they might have to put aside for now. climate change, a lot of climate change revisions. there is going to be a lot of climate change provisions in the bill, but how many? different people in congress are hoping remain may end up getting cut. we saw this from nancy pelosi. she has been increasingly hinting that we may need to do less with this package in order to pass it. that keeping, and i wrote this yesterday, is that democrats will have to decide if something

is better than nothing. in something that a lot of people on the hill often say -- do not let a few good things -- a few small things be in enemy of the good. they may need to settle for a smaller package in order to get it across the finish line. host: our guest is with us until 8:30. if you want to ask questions, (202) 748-8001 four republicans. (202) 748-8000 four democrats. independents, (202) 748-8002. alayna treene, those hurdles that you mentioned -- how many deal with senators mansion and cinema? -- manchin and sinema? guest: we hear about manchin and sinema all the time. they are being clear that they

have a lot that they disagree with. they wanted to be smaller, they think some provisions are too overreaching. we often talk about them together. that is one that i think is worth mentioning. they have two different ideas. there is something that senator manchin wants that senator sinema does not. senator sinema is seen as someone who is generally for prescription drug reform but not the ambitious proposals that progressives want in the package , where someone like joe manchin does not mind those as much. climate change is something that senator sinema is very much for. she wants a bold climate change section of the package, whereas senator manchin has been focusing negotiations on that. they are the two holdouts in the senate.

it matters, because they need all 50 democrats to sign on if they are going to do this via the reconciliation process, which is a budget process on the hill that is complicated, but you only need a simple majority in the senate, not the normal 60 votes needed for major legislation. you need those bets. they are very clear that they're going to take a lot of work in order to get those votes. we have seen this over the past several months. we have seen both senators having things with the white house. there was a time when senator sinema was at the white house four times in one day meeting with president biden. they really are key. from what we are hearing, negotiations are ramping up. it is owing to be a huge week to decide if they can meet the

deadline. -- it is going to be a huge week host: you write that leaders on both ends of pennsylvania avenue are frustrated like this process. what is the strategy coming from senator schumer, speaker pelosi, and president biden? guest: they are trying, from what i am hearing -- they are frustrated and want to get this done. they want to do it in a way that it can pass. you do not want to go through all of this work, and control the house, the senate, the white house as democrats, and not fulfill this agenda. the strategy is they need to make sure everyone is on the same page. they are trying to set deadlines. we note that congress works best under a deadline.

this week, i spoke with a lot of people on both sides of the aisle, but particularly in leadership that say this is going to be the week where they really need to find a consensus, what the topline number will be, which provisions stay, which get cut. host: we have of you are of our twitter feed. he talks about deadlines, saying, nothing in washington happens before the "deadline." in this case, the "deadline" is just before the midterm elections. there is plenty of time. guest: the argument that democratic leaders make is that americans need these programs

now. they need to get the economy ramped up through some of these programs that will create jobs, send many needed to a lot of important projects -- childcare, families. that is the argument from president biden and democratic leadership. at the same time, there are smaller things. the reason the end of the month is a deadline that she is not arbitrary per se -- october 31 is when transportation programs expire. they had to pass the extension at the end of september, a 30 day extension to keep those programs running. that is one of the reasons they are saying to pass the bipartisan infrastructure built to make sure that these programs stay afloat, but they need to have consensus on the other bill. but the viewer is right.

a lot of these are arbitrary deadlines. i do have time, but they want to get this done as soon as they can. -- they do have time host: on the infrastructure bill, when will we see possible action? guest: is what they are looking for at the end of the month. these two bills are always talked about together. now it was a time when particularly republicans tried to say they are not linked. but they are and always have been. that -- the house can take that up at any time. it is already past the senate, just awaiting passage in the house, but progressives view that built as leverage for the broader social spending package. they think they cannot pass the infrastructure bill until they have at a minimum the agreement

on the other bill, if not having that bill passed first to ensure it is as ambitious and as progressives as it can be. the thinking there is that moderates mate withdraw their support, particularly the two senators, senators mansion and cinema -- manchin and sineam, they want the bills are passed. it will be important for their states. complicated host: congressional reporter alayna treene from axios joining as. ewers,: power -- colin powell has passed away from complications of covid. according to his family, he was

84. general colin powell passed away this morning due to complications from covid. thorough -- the powell family road, we have lost a remarkable family member. our first call is bill in syracuse new york. caller: i am on the democratic line. i am a democratic-socialist. i like all of the programs that president biden is promoting, but i realize that half is better than none. this is the time for president biden to enter negotiations in good faith" the good faith shown by the progressive democrats -- and the good faith shown by the progressive democrats to pass

the infrastructure bill and then negotiate on the other. host: alayna treene? guest: it is a great point that bill is making. it is one that centrists are making as well. they do not understand why they have to hold the infrastructure bill in order to pass the broader reconciliation package. there is a lot of people who would agree with bill's point of view, but a lot who would say no. we saw this come to a head at the end of last month when the speaker had promised a vote on the infrastructure bill. essentially, it took president biden coming to the helm and saying we are going to hold it, trying to figure out negotiations on the bigger package first, and mass them

together in order to change the narrative around when that bill passed. at this point, progressives are staying for that they have the votes to sink the infrastructure bill without getting that agreement on the broader bill. they are not budging from that position. progressives, as of now, are not taking that point. they want to wait and make sure they can pass the broader bill before they do anything on the infrastructure bill. host: one thing also happening are hearings. this week, the homeland security secretary facing a hearing. and you give us an update on some of the hearings that we can expect? guest: a lot from the hearing standpoint. two big ones that we are going

to be with rahm emanuel, biden's nominee and another very contentious one. he is going to be prefer the senate foreign relations committee on wednesday. a few other ambassadors will have confirmation hearings at the committee level on wednesday as well. those are going to be big, if you're interested in foreign policy, interested in seeing republicans with some of these nominees, that is going to happen. other big deadline is tuesday. we sought last week that steve bannon -- saw last week that steve banton has been defying january 6 tina. they will have a vote tuesday night to decide whether to hold him in contempt for defying a

-- a subpoena. we are not sure what was going to happen. we were not sure if individuals related to that january 6 rally would be held in contempt, but the committee has been clear that that is a route they were planning to take if they divide these subpoenas. thursday, merrick garland is going to be before the house judiciary committee for an oversight hearing of the justice department. there is a lot of issues that he is going to be grilled on -- january 6, but also on abortion, texas's abortion law, immigration is a huge one

republicans are planning to ask about. a lot happening this week at the hearing level. we have not seen a lot of these hearings. this is going to be a huge week for these to have a centerstage, dominate cable news coverage. host: wanda, michigan, independent. caller: number one -- i do not like either one of these bills. i think they are full of things we do not need. my question is why art date talking about getting our deficit down instead of spending all this money? guest: a lot of people are

talking about getting the deficit down, republican in particular. derek has have also been saying we cannot be spending as much as we have been -- democrats have also been saying we cannot be spending as much as we have been. the argument from the way house then they are trying to make this broader social spending package totally paid for. if they actually pay for it completely over the next 8-10 years, that is the plan and a huge part of that negotiations holding up the process. it is the key issue that republicans are driving. it is going to be huge for them from a messaging standpoint. because we aren't seeing inflation -- we are seeing inflation dominate coverage and be an issue that lawmakers are definitely worried about, and

the spending is big. we had the $1.2 american -- $1.2 trillion american rescue package earlier this spring, then the bipartisan bill. i say roughly $2 trillion, but we still do not know the price take for the package. it is a huge issue. that is why we have seen the deficit fight be so potent this time around, where normally it is a bipartisan thing to raise the debt ceiling -- in particular, because it is for packages passed in the past. republicans voted for a lot of the debt that they are refusing to extend the debt ceiling four. but we are going to see this be a huge issue again when the debt

ceiling needs to be extended in december. they are paying attention to it. it is going to be a huge issue moving forward, one that is reflected in the midterms. host: darrell, missouri, republican. caller: on the infrastructure bill, that has got a million pages. i did a little investigating. there is stuff in that bill that makes your jaw drop, what the heck is going on? illegal aliens, they want to give them $200 million for amnesty. there is something about butterflies and desert fish. some of that stuff don't make no sense. what is going on? guest: i am not sure. with the amnesty aspect, is not

amnesty that they want to give. -- to give undocumented immigrants. it is something that democrats and the newer social spending package have been wanting to create a path to citizenship for dreamers that the senate parliamentarian said it is not possible then they can do some of the things related to immigration that they want to do through urgent reconciliation. you are talking about the $1.2 trillion bipartisan bill when you talk about infrastructure. there is a lot in there. this was a bipartisan bill that got, i think 19 if not more republicans in the senate to vote for it. there was a ton of republicans who helped craft the package. this is what we see with any

bill. it is a huge argument from lawmakers, particularly a bill of this size and scope, that there are things in the bill that they think are unnecessary or superfluous. i am not sure about the total level or which provisions you are speaking about that you are confused on, but i think that is something that we saw a lot of, we expect will be passed given the numbers in the senate. host: alayna treene, we heard as far as immigration by the senate parliamentarian pushback. dick durbin and chuck schumer said they would approach it in other ways. what might those ways be? guest: senator schumer and durbin have -- durbin has been walking some of that back recently, saying it is going to

be tough, because they did try to go back and find another way to provide a pathway to citizenship for dreamers and get different border provisions and different laws related to just how the crackdown on the border is being handled, and as of now, it looks very difficult. that is something that i think senator padilla in california has been involved in this fight. i think they are trying to get creative and find different ways , but at least from my conversations with senator durbin, they are feeling less confident that they will be able to do it. this is going to be a week where we see senator durbin gather some of the folks who are very much focused on immigration in the senate to see different pathways. we will probably see a meeting between them at some point this week, but increasingly, i have

heard that be a little less confident in the strategy. host: dave, michigan, independent line. caller: [indiscernible] talking about a review of this type. [indiscernible] all this money allocated, but why isn't there a governor's review? [indiscernible] host: i am going to have to pause you. you are breaking up. tried giving us another call and see if we get a better consent -- connection. charles, georgia, republican line. caller: the problem is we have not had a budget in 25 years. we need to take that away from congress. alayna treene, that point, as

far as passing budgets through regular order, it is a thing of the past as far as financial matters go? guest: well, they are not things of the past, i would argue, but he had seen increasingly a completely partisan exercise. there is a budget and the white house has the budget and both the house and senate pastor framework. we're looking -- passed a framework. we looking at him broader -- one of the big questions i want to know is to see whenever the next change comes, when republicans are in control, particularly in the senate, if they try to do -- use the same

tactics that democrats have to their advantage. it is where that they control both chambers of congress and the white house, which gives them this ability. it is going to be difficult. they will not be able to do that if republicans take over the majority in either the house or the senate. they are not going to be able to continue using the reconciliation process the way they had. host: one of the things the senate will work on is a proposal on voting rights. this authored by senator manchin. guest: learning rights have been a keeper ready for -- a key priority for democrats this year. they have had really no success in getting it across the fishing -- the finish line. they had an act goes off of an

hr one program that they tried to pass during the trump administration. they treated earlier, tried to pass it, it failed. because of the filibuster, you need 60 votes. this is where we start to see that filibuster -- a lot of the packages you're talking about have been via the reconciliation process. voting rights needs 60 votes. this is where a lot of congress over while -- whether democrats should block the filibuster and put it aside to pass the voting rights package. keep senators like joe manchin and senator sinema have said, no , we will not blow up the filibuster. but this particular package that we will seek voted on, that will set up a wednesday vote, is something that senator manchin

has proposed his own framework for this bill. it had a lot of negotiations to reshape it to something that he would support and that he thinks he could potentially get republicans to sign on to as well. manchin has been having negotiations with republicans, but schumer announced that time is up, we have to vote, we have promised the party that we would have this vote. it does not seem as of now that they will be able to get to 10 republican votes in the senate in order to break the filibuster. it looks like they will have this boat and it will not do anything to pass. host: alayna treene reports for axios. she is a congressional reporter. you can find her work at ax ios.com. thanks for your time this

morning. we will go to open a forum for that next 20 minutes or so. a facebook posting about colin powell, the announcement saying he passed away due to complications from covid. the powell family and also noting he was fully vaccinated, i think we want to thank the staff at walter reed for their treatment. we have lost a remarkable and loving husband, father, grandfather, and a great american. (202) 748-8001 four republicans. (202) 748-8000 for democrats. independents, (202) 748-8002. we will take those calls when washington journal continues. ♪

♪ ♪ >> get c-span on the go. watch the day's biggest political events on our app, c-span now. listen to radio and discover new podcasts for free. download c-span now today. host: you can participate if you

want to text us at (202) 748-8003. you can post on facebook and twitter. a story about colin powell adding that general was then nation's first national -- african-american national security advisor. describe frequently is the most popular american general since dwight eisenhower. mentioned as a possible candidate for president never elected to run. an american hero, a great american story. president elect george w. bush said in selecting him to lead the state department in 2000. it is a great day when the son of the south bronx succeeds to the office first held by thomas jefferson.

to learn more about colin powell, to our website at c-span.org. there are over 400 appearances of general powell there in various roles that he served. if you want to see more about his life, philosophy, otherwise, go to c-span.org. if you type his name in the video library box, you can pull up all of our events with him. you can call us at (202) 748-8001 for republicans. (202) 748-8000 for democrats. independents, (202) 748-8002. andrew, massachusetts. caller: i sought the reporting that colin powell was fully vaccinated. that is a better point to look at and realize that maybe the vaccine is not helping, not doing anything, maybe people

suffering from fibromyalgia should be speaking up and allowed to voice their opinions somewhere in an actual public forum, because things like facebook, twitter are not going to allow the truth. host: andrew in massachusetts. we will hear from avery, north carolina, independent line. caller: two things. sometimes the issues behind the infrastructure bill being stalled and the filibuster and the two senators from moderate states. that is not such a bad thing to have that level of moderation, but what is telling and most

concerning to me is that they cannot get over the fact that some of these things that many of their constituents have sent them, lest joe manchin is supposed to kyrsten sinema. kyrsten sinema's constituency heavily sent her there with the understanding that she would carry out democratic ideals. right now, one the most pressing things that needs to be addressed that would have the most systemic downstream impact our hr one, before the people act, the ability to remove money from politics. that alone is the one place at angus king has said, removing money from politics, from the politicians pocketbooks and essentially make it where they have to disclose who they are receiving that money from your

respective of that terrible supreme court ruling is majorly important. people have to see that that is the key to protecting what is going on. host: colin powell served as george w. bush's secretary of state. a statement from the former president -- laura and i are deeply saddened. colin powell was a great public servant. during vietnam, many presidents relied on his counsel and experience. -- reagan, my father, president clinton. during my administration, he earned the presidential of freedom twice. he was highly respected at home and abroad. most important, he was a family man and a friend. laura and i sent our sincere condolences. stan, staten island, democrats line. caller: colin powell was a great

military leader. what was beautiful about him was that he was a person of color and your classic example of somebody to the up to as leadership is concerned. his ability to work with a variety of different people in the cabinet was outstanding. the only blemish was that speech he gave at the you and. -- at the u.n. other than that, he was an outstanding leader. if you are a person of color, you have a lot to be proud of. finally, c-span, we worship you. you meet a lot to us. host: from william, illinois, independent line. caller: i have got a lot of

questions about my history, about open alabama news. open alabama was a long time ago in springfield, missouri. [indiscernible] was involved in this situation that [indiscernible] when they got together. they was taking so much money out of the people's pockets, the new solution. from kentucky and the rest. now, when they did, they took so much money out of that pocket, that is why they give out $300 retirements. host: william, illinois. if you go to the new york times,

there is a story about black staff members leaving congress. pictures of some of the staffers, along with the story. they also write about the experience, saying in a letter published on friday, two associations call for better pay and a stronger college to congress pipeline to recruit black people. this is published on behalf of 300 staff member -- black staff members in the house and the senate. currently, about 3% of top chef numbers on capitol hill or black , only two chiefs of staff, the position responsible for hiring. while the house has almost 30 black chiefs of staff, the person appointed said their disproportionately concentrated in the offices of black members of congress.

you can find the story online at the new york times. pennsylvania, john, democrats line. caller: my concern is the infrastructure bill. the president ought to call the bluff of the two senators, joe manchin and kyrsten sinema, and have a vote on that and see where it goes. if they vote against it, they are going to be the goats. the problem is they are holding out, i think for other reasons. sinema was promised a job. her polling numbers are way down. manchin, even though west virginia could use that money -- host: the infrastructure bill is still waiting about in the house. it passed the senate. caller: west virginia could use

that. his constituents are for that bill and yet he is in the pocket of the fossil fuel industry. it is a shame that he is being bought off. host: that is john in pennsylvania. when it comes to his efforts on campaigning in light of what is going on currently on capitol hill, usa today saying both republicans and democrats campaign, taking a look at the president's proposal, saying that with democrats holding the slim journeys, both parties are furiously trying to find the right message for the midterms. as messages will be drummed in. the parties likely will be have more money to spend than ever before. the cost of 22 elections is likely to exceed the record some spent in the 2018 midterms.

if you want to read more of that, that is a usa today. louisville, kentucky, bob, republican line. caller: the bemoaning of permanent senators -- wouldn't it be nice if our governors could appoint senators when they get to be picked as governors? oh, wait a minute, our constitution used to be that way and i believe our politicians voted themselves in. host: you have a problem with representatives? 15 more minutes if you want to give us a call. you can also post on facebook. colin powell, as you heard, passing away from having. his family posting that online,

adding that he was fully vaccinated. if you want to go to c-span.org, you can find out more about colin powell's life and the things he did while in various forms of government. that is at our website at c-span.org. in other news, a small georgia town is preparing for the murder trial of the three white and charged with killing ahmaud arbery, a black jogger whose shooting was captured on video last year. greg mcmichael, 65, his son, travis, 35, and their neighbor are accused of killing ahmaud arbery on february 23, 2020. brian filmed part of the shooting on video. it is at usa today. johnny, south carolina. caller: my name is johnny.

i served in vietnam. i am 74. colin powell was a fine gentleman, but he lost a lot of credibility when he lied at the u.s. but i would like to say one thing. you remember when president trump had the conference and said this general patent -- if general patton was alive, he would not have left equipment in afghanistan. he is not qualified to even mention -- name.

if he refused to go to war but because he had something, general patton would have beaten him to death. host: dan, independence, organ, democrats line. caller: i wanted to call about covid. everybody is really railing about getting a vaccine. i would like all those people out there that are not getting the vaccine to start exchanging the word covid for the word hiv /aids, saying it is just as good. you do not have to get it treated. you can give anybody a you want. host: how do you relate the two exactly? caller: they are post-viruses, both have to be treated.

they can be passed from one person to another. if you get aids and give age to somebody else, it is just like getting covid and giving covid to somebody else. host: help didn't you come to that conclusion? -- how did you come to that conclusion? caller: it is just as bad. it is obvious. they are saying, i can give covid to anybody and i do not have to be responsible. host: one of the topics that came up on the sunday shows yesterday was the work of the january 6 select committee in light of what they will vote upon when it comes to steve bannon. one of the people on the shows was representative adam kinzinger of illinois. he talked about what he thinks the committee's work will ultimately result in. >> what we really want to do is make sure we are getting every

piece of this puzzle. that is going to include people that already talked to us, people we will potentially subpoena in the future hope you have probably never heard of. that begins to put the building blocks together. speaking honestly, if we subpoena all of a sudden the former president, we note that is going to become a circus. that is not something we want to do upfront. this is not about necessarily even getting answers for tomorrow and hoping that the people at the believe the insurrection was some antifa falls blank -- false flag. i hope we can change minds tomorrow, but there is that 10 year argument. what are our kids going to think when they read history? i have believed since i have been a kid in sunday school that

truth wins out. host: went the things to watch for on capitol hill this week. if you are on the go and want to see events as they happened on our c-span now video app, you're welcome to download that and follow along. when it comes to gas prices, this is from usa today, sang the national average price of gas has been at a seven year high as of recent days. $3.18 a month ago. $2.18 eight year ago. the story out of that petroleum exporting countries recently decided not to increase oil production. adding that opec's influence over the global oil market has declined amid a surge of

production. the story attic that u.s. producers have not increased production, because they fear that investments in fossil fuels will prove to be a port use of resources. usa today if you want to find more. for the remainder of our program today, you are going to hear from two researchers out of the university of iowa. they take a look at covid in rural areas of the u.s. thank will join us for that discussion as well as new research about how the health care system in those areas art set up. we will have a conversation with those guests in a few minutes. later on, we will hear from patrick penn field of syracuse, new york. you've heard a lot about global supply chain. he is an expert.

we will talk about the current state of the supply chain and what might happen in future. those conversations coming up on washington journal. ♪ ♪ >> in the fall of 2018, a historian, his wife, and his dog set out on a road trip to retrace george washington's visits while president of the 13 original states. what came is this book, titled travels with george: in search of washington and his legacy. the first president said his goal was to bring the country together. he traveled to maine and

savannah, georgia. >> then historian on this week's episode of book notes plus. you can listen on our new c-span now cap. -- app. >> weekends on c-span to our intellectual feast. every saturday, you will find a fence and people who explore our nation's past. on sunday, book tv bring suit the latest in nonfiction books. learn. discover. explore. weekends on c-span two. ♪ >> washington journal continues. host: joining us for a discussion on covid related deaths and other information in rural areas is keith m -- keith

mueller and fred ullrich. to both of you judgment, thanks for your time. mr. mueller, scribe your work, particularly when it comes to covid related information. guest: as we call it, we are the center for health policy analysis. we have been tracking covid data since the spring of 2020, needing to understand both initially the differential in terms of the impact in metropolitan and non-metropolitan areas. unfortunately, since we have been living with a pandemic, we are also talking what is happening.

that has been fascinating to watch in the terms of data observation, discouraging. we have dealt with the surges since the spring. in the two most recent surges, it has hit rural areas harder than urban. host: mr. ullrich, can you give us a snapshot of what was found? >> what we found was that people in nonmetropolitan areas art dying at twice the rate of people in metropolitan areas. this was not entirely surprising, the magnitude of the difference has been eye-opening. we have seen for over a year that metropolitan areas have been hit worse by the disease. a year and a half ago, when covid first hit, it was largely

considered a metropolitan phenomenon. back in march of 2020, the news was rife with stories of new york city hospitals overrun, lack of supplies, lack of space and work facilities. the whole world thought this is going to be a metropolitan problem, but in the second and third waves, surves, that happened in the summer, non-metropolitan rates overtook metropolitan rates. as keith has said, rural is not a refuge from this disease. host: if those are the facts coming out of what you are studying, what are the causes? or what could you relate causes to? >> part that it would be the initial flip from metropolitan to nonmetropolitan.

in the earlier variant, which was already efficient in terms of how rapidly it could spread, once it reached rural areas, it spread rapidly, because they are areas where people are much more in contact with one another when the population is smaller. people are interacting more often. you get a greater spread. we have seen over time. as hotspots where there have been congregations of people initially, it was related to the meatpacking industry. then large truck stops on interstate highways. now it is related to some of the population characteristics -- low income population, underrepresented minority populations that are in much of

rural america. that is what we have seen of her time -- over time. host: if you want to ask questions about this research, we have divided lines this way. if you live in a rural area, (202) 748-8000. urban area, (202) 748-8001. you can also text us at (202) 748-8002 -- text is at (202) 748-8002 --(202) 748-8002. you use the word non-core in your research. >> the way to slice the population depends on density, size, proximity to large urban areas. there are lots of different entities that define urban,

rural, non-metropolitan. non-core counties are small, sparsely populated, do not have high density, and they do not have an economic relationship with a large urban area. they are not bedroom communities. truly rural areas. host: a couple of graphs. this is a graph of that mortality rate, the seven-day moving average. that shows you a little bit of the trends. they also have the seven-day moving average of mortality rates. when it comes to hotspots and transmission, usually see these depending on the time of year or the weather, are those consistent with rural areas? >> it has been consistent. we look for differences between

non-core areas and micro politician areas, small cities. not a lot of variation. the nonporous tend to come out -- non-cores tend to come out worse, but micro politician areas --while both of those aree than metropolitan areas they run parallel. we have seen in the last year an increase in metropolitan cases and nonmetropolitan cases. they are running pretty much parallel. host: as far as what you are seeing on the results side what could you tell us about the areas when it comes to vaccination rates? whether they have access to vaccines or interested in being vaccinated in the first place? caller: unfortunately,

-- guest: unfortunately, where the data is published it does not let us look at small areas. in terms of access we are not really sure. pharmacies are scarce in rural areas but i cannot tell you what is driving it. vaccination rates in non metropolitan areas are more in general but whether it is hesitancy we are not sure. host: anything to add? guest: the other thing we cannot

quite detect is the pattern that holds across all cases. what we can report because we follow like anyone else is reports coming out on a case-by-case basis. there are examples of places with low vaccination rates and high mortality but, when you probe the data, there are the inverse. high vaccination rates and still a higher death rate. it is very difficult to tease out what are the actual drivers behind the overall difference we see between metropolitan and nonmetropolitan? i tend to think of it as in the phrase, all hands on deck. look at all possible explanations and deal with them one at a time the best you can. that is where we see the policy initiatives, the actions of

civic groups from the communities, or i happen to be an active member of the national royal health association which has a vaccine messaging campaign across the country. uninsured is another factor that plays into this. people are reluctant to go in for care because they are afraid they cannot pay the bill. that is even going in for vaccination although all the messaging is the vaccine is free. they are still fearful there will be a charge for putting the shot in the arm even if the medication is free. there are all kinds of factors that play in. to go back to one i said, that strategy seems to be identified a factor you can put data behind that makes sense and deal with that factor and deal with as many as we can. host: we have calls lined up for

you. catherine, st. joseph, michigan defines herself as living in a suburban area. catherine, go ahead. caller: good morning. this is interesting you are studying all this data. how do you feel we can keep ourselves safe? i mean, how do we do it? you say you really don't have the data with vaccinated areas. you know, people are still dying no matter where you live. what is your concern as far as letting us know how to stay safe? what do you think? guest: follow the advice of the cdc and other top scientists. frankly, they have been saying at the last year, year and a half, wash your hands, maintain

your distance, get your vaccine, wear your mask. guest: even if someone who is vaccinated, just to give you a personal example, i masque up going into public places so that i don't become a spreader even though nothing happens to me. i am uncertain whether or not it spreads. anything you are uncertain about take whatever steps the cdc and others are telling us we could take to deal with that. as communities i think it is important to get people into treatment early if symptoms arise or they have been in contact with people who tested positive to get tested to try to deal with the symptoms early on because there are ways of doing that as well. host: from craig in tulsa,

oklahoma. you are up next. caller: pleasure to be on with you guys. appreciate your work. my condolences to general powell. he was fully vaccinated but died of covid. i think we need to unify against covid in this country not divide. it is scientific fact, and y'all can speak on this, that if you are vaccinated you can still catch and spread covid. you can still die of it. if you are unvaccinated, you can still die of covid. people who have natural immunity i am thinking they are probably the safest and they are part of the herd immunity which is not announced much. the transmission -- this vaccine is good because at least it keeps you alive, it lessens your symptoms, but does not stop you from spreading it. i hope people do not demonize

either side and work together. that is what i hope. host: that was craig in oklahoma . >> i agree. when i go out in public, when i go into a store or small indoor gathering i always mask up. i work in the college of public health. i am trying to send a good message. when i wear a mask not because i am afraid of what i am going to get from you, i am committing a public service by not being a spreader and not knowing it because a lot that start with the disease present asy mptomatic. i could have covid right now -- sorry -- and i am not wearing a mask. i am lessening my impact by containing the covid i am carrying. it is a public service. i don't have to apologize to you

for being afraid of something. >> and i like the caller's message of everyone has a role to play in trying to divide is not the way to deal with it. the best way we can deal with it is personally and in a public sense as well. host: mr. ulrich, you were talking about data and the data you collect. when it comes to deaths related to covid is there a way to separate the deaths in rural areas strictly to covid or those two covid complications? >> we don't have that level of data yet. that will come out of the vital statistics data and it takes a while for that to mature. we are concerned about what impact not only covid has had directly but the impact covid has had on other causes of death as well.

you may recall there have been stories about people delaying care seeking behavior because they didn't want to go to the hospital because that is where covid was. they didn't want to leave the house because they were concerned about covid so they did not get the regular health care visits. i would expect to see increases in the number of deaths for a variety of causes that were initially or primarily treatable but for which treatment was delayed. i expect to see a large number of excess deaths. how that will play out versus on the urban-rural continuum i don't know yet. host: mr. mueller, the government accountability office tells us when it comes to hospitals and places you can get care several closures over the years saying there were 100 from january 13 to february 2020. the average travel for care was 3.4 miles. relate that to what you study as

far as the ability for someone to get care should they get covid. >> thank you for bringing that up. that is another important issue. do we have the infrastructure in place and health care delivery to handle the onset of a pandemic? we are learning about that as we get through this one. one of the realities i like to point to is covid has shined a bright light on what were already severe challenges in maintaining the delivery of services. you mentioned hospitals, in particular hospital closures. just as important are health care personnel and there is a techno definition -- technical definition and they are disproportionate. it is not just the hospital if you can have a hospital but can you get the appropriate staffing to handle the surge in demand we

are seeing with the pandemic? one hospitals may have closed that may not have been an immediate obvious problem. people can still drive some distance to get care. you mention the distances have grown. but that also meant we didn't have the capacity to deal with an increase in demand in that area. i like to point to that as equally important to the ongoing situation. well, we have seen on the more positive side is collaboration across rural institutions all across the country. rural institutions located, say, in indiana in the radius of 150 miles of each other would get together, probably virtually, and think about, you know, if we have a surge in our hospital, how quickly can we get somebody

to your hospital? it is not necessarily moving them from a rural hospital to an urban hospital. it can be from rural to rural. we are learning how to deal with systemic, longtime challenge. we are also learning how important it is to come face-to-face with that challenge and do what we can to maintain hospital services in rural america. host: the next call is from illinois. caller: good morning. i hang around with farmers routinely and i can tell you there are three reasons these rural places are having covid incidents rise. a, lack of education. if you have no undergraduate degree, you are more likely --

it is my analysis -- more likely not to take the vaccine. number two is in these rural areas most people listen to news media and podcasts that is anti-vaccine. misinformation regarding the disease. number three is the people who come on the televisions, those so-called doctors, they are really not specialists in infectious diseases or epidemiology. they are any doctor. you would not go to a surgeon and ask advice of covid. you would not go to a dentist and ask advice of covid. but there are people coming on television, they are associates in communities who are doctors

who are not infectious disease or epidemiologists. host: we got your point. thank you very much. you can respond as you wish. >> sure and he's right. to be real upfront, i am not an epidemiologist, physician, or infectious disease specialist. i am a data analyst and policy analyst. what we have agreed is part of the issue -- and it relates to of the caller said -- has been messaging. the messaging has been mixed from the very beginning. had there been a unified front of yes, this is going to be a bad thing, yes we need to deal with it, yes we need to take it seriously, we probably wouldn't have the conundrum we have right now. but the early message was, eh, this is going to be no worse than the flu or it is going to go away by itself. i think that really sort of launched us off on a bad foot

for which we are trying to recover and not doing a very good job of recovering. people are really good at what they want to hear and holding onto that idea tightly and not letting it go. that message that came out 20 months ago still resonates with an awful lot of people. host: mr. mueller? >> the caller implicitly pointed to who the messenger is and how you reach the rural population. just like trying to reach the intercity of a metropolitan area is different than reaching people in the suburbs reaching people in rural montana is very different than reaching people in rural illinois. and it is who the messenger is. that is one of the issues i mentioned about the uninsured. if they are not going into and don't have a relationship with a clinical provider, that is a void and we have to fill that so

we can get the message to the individuals. host: let's hear from jeff in bayville, new york. caller: thank you for taking my call. if i could, i would like to put some perspective by stepping back a little bit. we have known the pandemic was likely due for decades and because you are a data analyst i think we should be looking at the nations that fared best to see what it is they did and how they did it so that we can do the same to prepare for the next pandemic. maybe even to get out of this one because we are not over this one by a longshot. and one of the things i have done is i put a proposal out to the president and to the congress by writing letters with a proposal of what i believe we could do to learn from people

who have done well with this. it seems to me that we could learn the lesson we have to have capacity and trust. if we don't have both of those, we cannot do well and nations that did well had both of those. for example, south korea. the way we can do it as americans is going to be different because we have a political system that allows diverse opinions and the problem we have is the political branches don't have incentive to fund a long-term project that was always going to be prepared and always be distributed to every community in accordance with the hhs pandemic preparedness plans and local plans. host: caller, we put allowed out

-- a lot out there for our guests. go ahead and respond. >> you point to the importance of having preparedness plans well-designed and acting quickly to implement those. we have done a lot in our country since 9/11 and put a lot of investment into public health preparedness. a lot of local health departments have those plans and have been working to implement them. one of the weaknesses is they need sustainable funding over time to continuously update the plan, to be ready to act based on that plan. we mentioned messaging and some of the local plans but without the consistent resource of support it is very difficult -- if the pandemic hits if you will -- to turn on a dime and deal with it.

host: this is rick in maine. good morning. caller: good morning to you. one of the things that absolutely baffles me is every weekend there are hundreds and hundreds of thousands of screaming fans in the stands at these sports events, elbow to elbow, no masks on and yet, we don't hear about any massive outbreaks of the virus. are we supposed to assume that every one of these people has been vaccinated or has passed a test before they are allowed to go into these sports arenas? i am baffled. thank you very much. >> i don't think your befuddlement is yours alone. we solve reports from one of our colleagues earlier or last week who talked about the same issue and it appears because they are

outdoors where there is an abundance of fresh air and possibly a breeze the infection rate seems to be relatively low. i have not looked at it is specifically and i am simply reporting what i heard from one of my colleagues at her explanation, but it does not seem -- and this is by no means a blessing but it does not appear these are a vector for spread. >> one of the interesting, from a researcher perspective, would look at the difference between that kind of event in the event that may even be outdoors but people gravitate into entertainment venues, etc. while at the big outdoor event and i am thinking of the event that occurs in south dakota. they were seeing a bit of a

ripple surge after the latest event. in that event it is outdoors, people gravitate indoors for food and drink, and that is where the spread probably happened. host: as far as getting care one of the discussions when it comes to rural areas was access to broadband and internet, telemedicine is dependent on that. what kind of factors do those play as far as care in rural areas for those once they get covid? >> significant impact because you want to be able to consult with the appropriate specialist early on. i mentioned the importance with any disease or infection treating it early. we rely a lot on telemedicine specifically to do that. the absence of broadband does

play a role in how we access care individually, it plays a role in how our insta institutions are able to do that. host: george is in miami, florida. go ahead. you are on with our guests. good morning. caller: my question would be did they use fetal from aborted babies to make the vaccine? >> i am not a disease specialist or immunologist. i cannot comment on that. >> same here. host: got about 10 minutes, eight minutes. if you want to call and ask questions about the research into rural areas, particularly dealing with covid. when it comes to the data what data do you rely on and how do you put faith and accuracy in the data you use? >> so, we have been relying heavily on the johns hopkins data primarily for our mortality

and disease incidents data. we have used cdc data to look at vaccines primarily because that is the one source that can get us the data at the level we want. again, there are lots of places putting out surveys or what not to look at state level data or look at getting the national polls, but our interest is on rural areas. in order to do that we have to have data reported at the county level. initially we relied on another independent source. we were using a place called usafacts.org and they would provide me that level of data. after a while we decided johns hopkins would be preferable because it seemed to be the go to data source for this information. i would like to be able to use other data sources but data is expensive, hard to do, and part of the messaging of covid got in the way of reasonable and good

data collection early in the process. which is why we have to go to a university or go to a private organization instead of going to where we normally go which is the cdc. that is changing. we might be able to go back to using them as our data source but we have every reason to believe the data we are seeing is a good and reasonably good faith effort. we have no reason to believe there is any agenda anywhere else guiding the data collection. host: from rhode island this is christine. good morning. caller: good morning. i was calling, i don't understand when the covid started here in the northeast and people were dying and they had the information, they saw what was going on, our governor was on daily to give us information. and i just don't understand why

the politicians with the propaganda on fox news and other channels is what is causing -- this is a pandemic. i lost three family members. so please, listen to the science. >> sorry for your losses. >> what she said, listen to the science. host: william from houston, texas. caller: i am curious if we have seen any super-spreader events from any college football games? we have seen a couple of events where hundreds of thousands of students rush the field in close proximity and of course, like you mentioned with the sturgis event, i am sure they congregate inside. have we seen correlation between football games as well? >> we don't have any data that allows us to single that out.

again, the data we are working is at the county level. an event like that would probably occur at a much more interesting fashion. i would not necessarily think it would be isolated to a particular location. at the university of iowa, people from all over the state come into the stadium so it would not necessarily show up. unfortunately, i go where the data tells me and i don't have data that would answer that. host: mr. mueller, what are communities doing to bring the pandemic under control? what kind of strategies are they trying? >> i go back to what i said earlier about all hands on deck, try all means you can think of. providing access to testing so that if people do come in contact or think they have, they can get the test readily at no cost to themselves. providing access to masks for people who prefer to keep

wearing them no matter what the regulatory policy happens to be. both of us mentioned our desire to stay masked up. a lot of conversation this morning from the callers and us has been about what is the message that gets through? how does it get through? at the community level thinking about who people trust further contact, working with large employers in communities, even without the presence of the vaccine mandate that has been happening around the country so that those employers are working with employees and making it easy for people to, one, get tested, get vaccinated. any reason or barrier we can think of that we can take down that is the strategy and there are a lot of local ways doing that. it is probably most effectively done one locality at a time where you understand the

population in that area and what kind of messaging would get through to them and what kind of help they need. host: here is bob in michigan. hello. caller: yes, i would like to talk a little bit about who doesn't get vaccinated in rural areas. i live in a rural area but it is close -- within 20 miles -- of an urban area. most rural people tend to work in urban areas, even the farmers do around here. you could consider it rural in some ways. it is primarily agricultural, the land is, but let folks live. they are in contact constantly, 24 mile drive to a hospital.

i am not talking about the middle of western nebraska i am talking about where most people live. and it is political. it is purely political but not political in the sense of wonder to political parties. -- one or two political parties. this is a willingness to die for some absurd theory, you know? i am telling you the way it is where i live. they may vote a certain political party but they may not vote at all. they have an attitude that is almost impossible to stop and i know because my son in law died a month ago from this. host: that was bob in michigan. >> i am very sorry for your loss, bob. it does come down to attitude but attitude is influenced by a lot of different things. sense of isolation, sense of empowerment, by lack of

appropriate sources of knowledge, by messaging again. again, i don't think, as keith has repeated, we will not find a single button to fix this. it will take multiple messengers. host: as far as lessons learned from what we have seen so far and how it applies to the future fightings against pandemics, in rural areas particularly. guest: i could answer that -- if i could answer that with a good, informed, intelligent answer, i would not be working for him. it is going to be difficult. we are not done with this yet. we have seen that both incidents and mortality rates are down, but they are still shockingly high and there is no reason to

believe we will not see some other variant or change in the next few months that will not send us up through the roof again, so i hate to say this, but i think we are still relatively early to try to figure out what lessons we have learned from this from a historical perspective because it is not over by any means. guest: the important lesson you mentioned earlier about sustained, reliable funding for our public health infrastructure, from the local to state to national level, and turning the infrastructure as early as possible so we are prepared when it gets here. the second is continuing to invest in access to services in rural america. you mentioned hospital closures

earlier in our conversation. i talked about health care professionals and the importance of maintaining a presence in rural america and linked to both is the use of technology through telehealth and making sure that is available, so, to me, it circles back to what we are doing with the health care system to be sure that people in rural america have access, that we connect with people in rural america, as we should everywhere . host: keith all rich -- keith and fred ulrich, to both of you gentlemen, thank you for the conversation. coming up, we will talk about the global supply chain and what is going on with that with syracuse university's patrick

penfield. that coming up. we want to again inform you about the passing of colin powell at 84 years old due to covid complications. a posting from his family this morning on the family's facebook page. if you go to our website, over 400 appearances of colin powell you can watch as far as some of the things he has said and done in his time in politics and other areas of the government. he made a speech at mount vernon during his time, about how he rose through the ranks in the areas he would serve. here's a portion. [video clip] >> now that i am, or was, a four star, they come up and say, did you go to west point? i say, no. did you go to one of the schools down south? i say no. well, where did you go? ccny. well, what's that? city college of new york.

and they say, and you became a four-star general. did you have a dream of becoming one? that is my punchline. i grew up in the bronx. there i was, on the corner one day, and i said to myself, you know what? you are going to become chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. everyone breaks out into laughter. it wasn't thinkable. i mean, we are talking about a point in time in this country where segregation still existed. it had just ended and the military but still existed in the whole country, and i did the very best i could. and with my -- and what my nco 's, sergeants told me when i got there, when i was trying to adjust to it all, powell, we don't care what color you are,

where your parents came from, what school you graduated from. the only thing we care about is your performance. we want to see what your potential is. "do you understand?" yes, sergeant, understand. "good. get out and do it. and that is what i did for 30 years." host: joining us now is patrick penfield of syracuse university here to talk about what you have heard about the last few weeks, delays in the supply chain. good morning. guest: glad to be on the show. host: what is the best way to think about a supply chain, particularly with the issues currently at play? guest: supply chains are simplistic. it is basically input, transformation, output. they have gotten complicated over the years, and a lot of bit has been due to cost reduction, trying to get the lowest cost and the best quality, so now we

have a global supply chain crisis, problems and issues throughout various parts of the supply chain. host: what are the biggest problems adding up to the crisis? guest: yeah. the big one is a shortage of materials. we have a shortage of the basic ingredients, chemicals, for semi conductor chips especially. we have long lead times that keep getting longer. an example would be come if you were to ship something from china last year, it would take about 35 days. now it takes about 73. we have congestion at the ports, 56 container ships outside the ports waiting to be unloaded. we have a lack of workers, 4.3 million vacancies we are unable to fill, and the lack of warehouse space. we have nowhere to put the stuff once we unloaded. -- we unloaded it. host: was part of the problem because of the pandemic directly or where there issues before that even? guest: we have had other issues

with infrastructure, so it has been something that has been happening, but the pandemic has definitely been the impetus behind most of our problems right now, so i would say the pandemic, weather events, and the cybersecurity attacks we seem to be having lately. host: relate this to the consumer at home. i know that the president talked last week about maybe the holiday shopping season. there are other issues as far as people reporting things not on shelves. what is the real worry for the consumer at this point in your mind? guest: i think there's two things. one is they will see a lot of prices going up, so that will be constant throughout the whole season, and the second thing is lack of ability, so you will see some stuff but not the variety we are accustomed to seeing. the hot stuff will be gone quickly. host: our guest with us until 10:00 here to talk about global supply chains and the issues you

are hearing about. if you want to ask questions, if you live in the eastern or central time zones, (202) 748-8000. if you live in the mountain or pacific time zones, (202) 748-8001. you can text your response at (202) 748-8003. mr. penfield, with the president himself talking a little bit at least from the government's point of view about how they are resolving this issue, i want to play a bit of what he said last weekend and get your response to that. [video clip] >> after weeks of negotiation and working with my team and with major union retailers, the ports of los angeles -- the port of los angeles announced today it will begin operating 24 hours a day, seven days a week. this follows the port of long beach's commitment to 24/7 that was announced weeks ago. 24/7 system. what most of the leading countries of the world already operate under, except

us. until now. this is a key step in moving our entire freight, transportation and logistical supply chain nationwide to a 24/7 system. host: that is part of the proposal, patrick penfield. how much will that do as far as resolving issues? guest: i applaud the president for getting involved and trying to fix the situation at the ports. it will help a little bit. it will not resolve our issues because the supply chain is so complex, so the help he is stating will be there will definitely give us some relief as far as being able to unload more ships. the problem is that you will have a bottleneck that will form. that is what the ports are right now, they are a bottleneck. the next bottleneck is where are the drivers to move that freight and where do you place it? that is what will happen. host: moving into 24/7

operations, that exacerbates the problem? guest: well, i think it helps the unloading of the ships, but what will happen is that it will cause other issues because we have things sitting there that will still have to be moved, and that is common within supply chains. usually, within -- usually, when you get rid of one bottleneck, another will form baird host: how does that work labor was? how does it typically work? guest: those two ports are not very well automated. that is one thing. i would stress that we need to do a better job of automating those facilities. right now, it is very labor-intensive, so again, that is an issue. and there is only so much people can work. 24/7 continuous operations, that is a lot of hard work for people on a weekly basis, so another issue with this is making sure

they have enough labor to support that operation. host: increasing operations to that extent, i assume, if i do that, i am also increasing my costs. guest: absolutely. you are paying time and a half, doubletime, so it will be more costly for them to do 24/7 operations. host: there was a recent piece in barron's. the writer said greater automation is key to speed. once on land, smart cargo handling and transport technology, including automated port management, will make the process more green and efficient, indicating that elevated lanes and major interstate highway improvements to close the last-mile gap. guest: that is something of necessity to be done in those two ports, long-overdue,

something that will hopefully happen the next couple years. host: as far as the automation, what does that technology look like? guest: again, this is robotics that you have in place. this would be automated guided vehicles. this is technology that is there now. if you look at some of the ports in the other parts of the world, specifically singapore, you will see a lot of that technology already being deployed. host: our first call for you is from chuck in florida. patrick penfield of syracuse university, you are on with our guest, chuck. go ahead. caller: one of the problems we are having is a lack of truck drivers, correct? guest: you are correct. caller: what i don't understand is a truck driver can get drunk as a skunk on friday night or saturday night and is allowed to drive monday morning, but if a guy smokes a little pot friday night or saturday night,

he cannot drive. how do we solve this problem? in other words, i know a lot of people who like to smoke a little joint friday night, but then they can't drive. guest: again, that's an issue outside of this, but i think, for the most part, yeah, we always want to make sure we protect the public safety as much as we possibly can. that is a dilemma we have with marijuana legalization, is again to understand the reppo -- the repercussions of a situation like that. so i think the reason for that is in the interest of public safety for the most part. this is something that, in the future, they could do more studies to understand what is happening with this. the best way to get more truck drivers is may to lower the age limit from 21 to 18. that would go a long way. another way to get more truck drivers is maybe to use the military, some of the truck drivers they have to help with

the shortage. i can tell you this. we have had a truck driver shortage probably for the past 20 years. what exacerbated that was when covid hit. we had a lot of truck drivers that retired. because they retired, we now have almost an increased shortage of these truck drivers, so that would be my recommendation. let's lower the legal age limit from 21 to 18, see if we can get military truck drivers to help with some of the shortages, and maybe that would allow us to move this freight faster. host: do you think automated truck transport is something that will come into play in the future/ guest: absolutely. the big issue stalling automatic truck transport is regulation. there is no regulation allowing autonomous trucks across state boundaries. you have laws allowing states to use them, but no regulation regarding the state-to

-state situation. if we could get that enacted, that would go a long way. host: from libya, washington, this is elaine, good morning. caller: i have a question. i have heard that some truckers and their rigs were prohibited from going to the ports because the trucks were considered old or the driver wasn't immunized. that's number one. in the second one you just brought up -- and the second one you just brought up. can they get transit tickets crossing from stateline to stateline and is there a prohibition still on what they can carry? guest: good questions. i know there have been poor issues and i am hoping the port authority of l.a. and long beach will be more lenient with regard

to the types of trucks and drivers they allow. i have been hearing that when the truck drivers are not there at their scheduled time, they are told to leave, so i think we have to be more lenient, more focused on getting trucks loaded and out. i would suggest that to the port authority if they could do that to make that change to allow for some leniency when people show up. the second thing as far as a state to state, yeah, you can do that but not with autonomous trucks, and that is because every state, the ones that have autonomous truck legislation, it is different. so those of -- so those are some of the problems. host: when it comes to the ports and workers involved in everything else, how much of a role do labor unions play in this process? guest: labor unions play a big

role. the longshoreman union is very strong. that is a very big concern, will they work with the port authority? they are focused on making sure their union membership is protected, so there's two sides to this equation, but absolutely, if you don't have their help, it will be a deterrent to what the port authority will be trying to accomplish. also understand that the longshoremen's contract in los angeles and long beach is up in july. it could be a potentially contentious situation, so i hope they work for the common good. host: we had a viewer asking a question, it are vaccine mandates responsible partially

for the disruption? guest: absolutely. we are seeing that in different types of operations from a supply chain standpoint. the best thing is to get vaccinated and i cannot stress that enough because it is for the greater good and it protects your coworkers. i am hopeful that in the next month or so we will start to see some of that go away. host: let's hear from justin in california. you are on with our guest, patrick penn field -- patrick penn syracuse university. caller: thank you. big fan of c-span. my question was about trucking and connecting the cargo container to the truck that will bring it out of the port. when they are unloading all these cargo containers, they cannot just throw it on the truck. how did they match that container with that truck and get it going to the right place

on the news we got the last week that they interviewed a truck driver who said he was waiting in line for five hours before he was able to pick up his load. i can see how that would be a logistical challenge. my second question, if you could , some smuggling evidently does come in through the major ports, a lot of the illegal drugs that enter our country. i think for smugglers, this must be a golden opportunity because i don't think we are inspecting our cargo containers as closely as we would like. i would like your thoughts. guest: sure. in the past, when we had ships unload, it was a pretty smooth transition. a year, year and a half ago, we would have maybe one ship waiting at anchor to be unloaded. so you unload the ship, the 20 foot containers would be there, you would have a truck driver

coming in, they would match up what they have from their ability to pick up, the paperwork, you would load it and off they would go. that is not the case now. what is going on is going on as we are unloading all these freighters, but the 20-foot containers are everywhere, so this is causing part of the issue. now, there is no first up system for these containers. they are getting unloaded and placed somewhere and now you basically have to hunt for a container when a truck driver comes in for their pickup. that is what is causing these issues and why this particular person had a five hour delay, just trying to hunt and find that container. that is the issue you have where you have capacity just inundated. you are able to process to the extent you were in the past. as far as smuggling goes, i don't know. that is a concern, absolutely,

but part of the issue is, even if you are a smuggler, how are you getting your stuff and are you getting it quickly? there are a lot of issues with just the stuff sitting there. if you are a small company, you are probably struggling with trying to get your 20-foot container. if you are a large company like walmart, target, usually you have people on site to work with the port people to get their product on trucks faster. host: to that point, the president talked about the role of retailers in this. i will play a little bit and get your thoughts on it. [video clip] >> the positive impact felt across the country and by all of you at home, for that, we need major retailers to order the goods and the freight movers who take the goods to factories and stores to step up as well. these private companies are the ones the higher the trucks and railcars and move the goods. on this score, we have some good

news reported as well. today, walmart, our nation's largest retailer, is committing to going all in to moving its products 24/7 from the ports to their stores nationwide. specifically, walmart is committing as much as a 50% increase in the use of off-peak hours over the next several weeks. additionally, fedex and ups, two of our nation's biggest freight movers, our committing today to -- movers, are committing today to increasing the amount of goods they move overnight. they ship to some of our largest stores but also for tens of thousands of small businesses across america. their commitment to go all in on 24/7 operations mean that businesses of all sizes will get their goods on shelves faster and more reliably. host: mr. penfield, that is what the president said. what is the reality of how that plays out? guest: absolutely.

again, i applause -- i applied the president for giving the information. these are something -- these are things the companies are doing anyway because they have to. this is a great move. the largest impact is, again, when you pay people at night, you pay the more. when you have more capacity, you will have to pay more. this is something that these companies were already doing, having these plans in place. i applaud the president for getting involved in trying to make sure this happens. again, i applaud also the supply chain professionals in the u.s. this has been a difficult time for these particular people and they are doing everything in --everything and anything to make things happen, and i mean that. it is an arduous task and they are going above and beyond. this is one thing that i think

they really need to be thanked for, all the stuff they are trying to do for the holiday season. host: there's a story and the washington times about backup ports. could other ports become viable? guest: a lot of them don't have the infrastructure for the big freighters, and that is the dilemma. that is why we have these bottlenecks. if the other ports could unload these 20,000 tu containers, absolutely. right now, they cannot. some of them, they are actually getting, the walmarts and home depots, our leasing smaller freighters that these ports can actually handle, so that's another possibility, that reducing the size of the ships and allowing other ports to be able to unload them. host: let's go to tony, cleveland, ohio. caller: i would like to make sure that i say that biden is

the greatest -- has the greatest honor of all. that man brought our army home from the war. and since biden has been in office, look at the things he has done. host: ok. we are talking about supply chains. do you have a question about that for our guests? caller: i am saying the chain comes from president trump. all the chains. everything that goes on, that is the chain. you can look and see because that man is fierce. host: ok. that is toni in cleveland, ohio. does any of this relate back to the trump administration? guest: i would say no. this is really a commercial issue. there is only so much the government can do. they can change laws,

incentivize, and that is really the role of government. if there is anything different from what they could have done it is with infrastructure. we just have to start investing more in infrastructure. it is a necessity. if we don't start investing in it -- and that is where governor -- where government plays a big role -- we will have issues. host: a statement as far as that many of the containers can be moved in bulk by rail and is that a solution? guest: people have been trying the and the rail industry is in the same situation as the ports. the issue with rail is that when you ship via rail, stuff will go into a railyard and you don't know when it will get where it is going, so the problem with rail is delivery problems. right now, the rail industry is in a similar situation as the trucking and port industry is in, they're very congested and

have a hard time moving products. host: you are on with our guests. caller: thank you for taking my call. i was senior legal counsel to a multinational corporation -- to multinational corporations for about four decades, and so what happened as we offshore the manufacturing -- and saw what happened as we offshored the manufacturing of just about everything. monopolies to offshore and save 1/10 of one cent. the issue is we failed to enforce our monopoly laws. this is why everything is offshored, even quality control. that's a joke. there is no quality control. i was responsible for putting in place all the contracts with these offshore manufacturers for inspections, and we primarily

did unannounced inspections -- did announced inspections, and that is a total joke. even if you know unannounced inspections, they know our inspectors are there. what i really want to know about is, with covid, obviously, no inspections are happening whatsoever in terms of the quality of the goods. that's very serious in terms of masks, respirators. we offshored 100% of n95's to china and mexico. 90% to china, 10% to mexico. materials are not available for testing. we have no testing program in the u.s. guest: great questions. i am a proponent of manufacturing in the u.s. manufacturing creates wealth within a society. so i agree with the caller.

we have offshored too much in this country and we need to bring production back for our livelihood and it is also a national security issue. being so dependent on semiconductors from other countries is not a wise course of action. it is prudent and makes more sense to hopefully bring that stuff back. and what the caller stated was true. some of the medical devices, medical equipment, a lot of that should be produced in the u.s., so i am hopeful the government will incentivize companies to bring that back because the caller is correct. you have a lot of issues going on. the problem, then come is that it is cheaper for companies to produce things -- problem, then, is that it is cheaper for companies to produce things offshore. hopefully they are the same quality. but i think now we are seeing the issue with the outsourcing we have done. i think it would again make sense to bring back certain industries into the u.s., create jobs. ideally, mining factoring

is what we want to do here. host: patrick penfield, thank you for your time, sir. thank you for having -- guest: thank you for having me on. host: that is it for our program. another edition of washington journal coming your way tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. thank you for watching. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2021] ♪ >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are funded by these television companies and more, including comcast. >> you think this is just a community center? no. it is way more than that.

>> comcast is partnering with 1000 community centers to create wi-fi enabled systems to give families what they need. >> comcast is partnering with c-span along with these other television providers to give you a front row seat to democracy. a new mobile video app from c-span, c-span now. download today. colin powell has died after complications from covid-19. he was secretary of state from 2001 to 2005 in the george h.w. bush administration. the first african-american to hold the position. mr. howell served as chair of the joint chiefs of staff from 1989 to 1993 and national security advisor from 1987 to 1989. he was 84 years old. here