recounts his role in president trump's first impeachment trial and threats against american democracy. watch book tv every weekend and find a whole schedule on your program guide or watch any time at book tv.org. >> get an early start on holiday gifts at c-span shop.org. shop now through wednesday and save up to 15% on our latest collection of c-span products. there's something for every c-span fan for the holidays and every purchase helps support our nonprofits operations. the team at c-span.org. "washington journal" continues. host: each week in a segment of the washington journal, we focus

on a recent magazine piece and we are focused on the pages of the american spectator. pat nolan is a director emeritus of the american conservative union foundation for justice, and he wrote this piece. the headline, businesses beg for workers and exclude a whewell -- huge pool of applicants. mr. nolan, who is in that pool of eager applicants? guest: men with chemical -- criminal convictions. host: how are why are they being excluded? guest: frankly, most company hr departments automatically toss out anyone with a conviction, no matter how long ago it was, and no matter how clean a life they have lived since. it is a mark of cain. it makes it very difficult to get employment, if employers would only look behind the conviction and see how long it

is, and what kind of life they have lived. they would have a shot at it. the fact is, the employers that you hire, they find them more loyal, more hard-working, less likely to quit, and of course, we save them a whole bunch of money from having to keep hiring new people and trying them out. as a player said to me, dealing difference between those with a record and those without our -- i don't know the background of those that don't have a record. i do know the those with. i can see if they've been leading a productive life since. host: from the pages of years -- or peace, -- your piece, college is used background checks, and any records for minor offenses can be used to reject the job

applicant and deny them a place to live or a college education. --. there are many restrictions and they are prohibited from obtaining a barbara cosmetology license. that would be funny if it weren't so stupid and harmful. what states are the most restricted? guest: they tend to be those with tough on crime policies. it is really interesting. those with restrictions on licensing, they are usually dominated by people who already have licenses. not the public. they tend to exclude anybody who is not competition. here in arizona, the governor signed a far-reaching legislation which said that you cannot look at the record, so long as they satisfy all of their obligations to the public.

they've been kept out of trouble with the law. there are many states moving that way, but the majority of states still have an impediment to getting any kind of licensing. one example is tyrone peake, a young 18-year-old who learned to drive, took a ride with his buddies. one of them had stolen a car. he was convicted and he had a felony on his record. he did not get any scale time and he only had probation. and after getting a degree in behavioral sciences and specializing in helping the elderly, he still finds it difficult, after no other involvement in the criminal

justice system, he still finds it difficult to find employment in helping the senior citizens in hospice, which is his desire. another example is darrell langdon who was caught with half a gram of cocaine back in 1985. he was sent to prison, he was on probation, he has had a totally clean record since. he has no drug involvement at all. 35 years later, he still, when he applied to the chicago school system to work in the boiler room, he was denied a job because, it only because, a scaled conviction from 35 years earlier. host: criminal records in hiring god is our segment -- hiring is our segment for the segment. employers can call in at (202) 748-8000. those with experience in the criminal justice system can call in at "washington journal" (202) 748-8001.

all others, rep. smith:. , (202) 748-8002. explain the justice system and how you go about your work. guest: we believe in limited government but also redemption. we tried to apply to conservative principles with the criminal justice system. we work to help support legislation that helps vendors turn their lives around. they have reasonable restrictions on future employment, but, they don't put it totally off limits for employment. we were strong supporters of the firststep act rated a strong bipartisan effort led by

president trump, but also leading democrats, as well as republicans that passed overwhelmingly, and it is helping turn the tide, so criminal justice is the focus on those that really pose a threat, a physical threat to us, rather than those who happened to break the tens of thousands of laws on the books for relatively minor things. host: we are talking about personal issues for you. can you talk about your background and how you got into this work? guest: sometimes, god hits us upside the head. i was a member of the california legislature. i was targeted by the fbi in a very political investigation. i, rather than running the route, because of mandatory sentences, i risk going to prison for 21 years. i children were very young.

they were 5, 4, and 10 months old. i would've missed their childhood, so i did what a lot of folks did and said i did something i didn't so i limited the damage to my family, but it was through that that i had my eyes opened because it was a tough law and order legislature. to the injustices of the system, having relatively small players who were caught up in the war on drugs -- the people that end up, are the low-level folks. one of the rubrics at the center states that prisons are for people who are afraid, not those who you are mad at. as a conservative, we think that the government should be limited to certain roles. obviously, protecting us from physical violence is important.

but a young kid with merely possession of pot that is imprisoned, that makes no sense. it is a terrible use of resources. it destroys their future, as their families often times on welfare, and from a conservative and libertarian point of view, that makes no sense. here in arizona, we have the highest number of people for -- imprisoned for pot possession, not for sale. mere possession. more than any other state. i am in arizona resident and we are working to change that here. host: you brought up those examples, the most extreme examples, of criminal convictions. keeping someone from being hired on the road, but what is a reasonable restriction? how far out do you think a conviction should follow somebody? how do you know when it is right to return to the working world? guest: you're actually right.

we are not saying that get out of prison all the ollie oxen free. they have to pay recompense to the victim if there is a victim, and in which most cases they are. most of the states, 10 years. some are as low as eight and some are higher. if you have been able to keep your nose clean for that long, if you are meeting all of your obligations, no other run-ins with the law, there needs to be a. where we say, ok. we will give you a second chance. america is a land of second chances. some people came here with records from abroad, and they became solid citizens your over the centuries.

a lot of folks had a record, and they started over, here. they live great lives and contribute. there needs to be a. to show that they are serious, that they have met their obligations. are they paying child support or are they supporting their children if they art? it is difficult if they don't have a job, but if they are meeting those obligations, we should give them a second shot. host: is there federal legislation to that effect, and is this subnet can be on a state level? guest: there is currently in the first step of implementation act, there is a provision to allow a clean slate. several states have already adopted it. justice brandeis said we are a great laboratory 50 states. good legislation has to be tested in the states, and when

proven successful, it becomes national. currently, states have already adopted clean slates like pennsylvania, utah, michigan, connecticut, delaware has in the past. they had a governor who supported with a signature. virginia has passed a slimmed-down version for pot. the states that are pending right now are texas, new york, north carolina, massachusetts, louisiana, and oregon. the thing is, the mix of random blue states, some of the most conservative states, they are saying yes. we believe in redemption. we believe in a second chance. after an appropriate. , let's give them another shot. let's let them join the workforce. they are not untapped reinforce -- resource.

we have an 87 billion dollar domestic product. a job is the most likely to keep somebody from recidivism. from committing another climb -- crime. we win, all the way around. host: what is the window on the clean slate legislation that you're talking about? what is the timeframe that would be codified? guest: it is fluid. 32 b that -- there needs to be that period, and dick durbin and ashley in the senate, the republican and democratic leaders in the senate judiciary committee, they have been outspoken on this issue. between the two of them, as they did with the firststep act itself, they will come up with a

reasonable. period. but for most states, it is in the range of eight to 12 years. this doesn't expunge the record. all this does is seal it to the public. law enforcement still has access to these records, and for licenses that are needed for senior care, working in hospitals, daycare centers, it is still available for review, but they cannot automatically exclude them. they have to look and see if the offense applies directly to the situation or runs the risk for the public and that. it gives credence to the idea that if they have been crime free all these years, two or three decades, that is a very low risk.

all the studies show that recidivism decreases dramatically over time. the further you get, the more you have lived life free of crime, and the more likely you are to not commit another crime. bill is on the line for employers out of northbrook illinois. you are online. caller: a great discretion -- discussion. here's my question. with states to have recreational marijuana, we have thousands of people incarcerated for drug offenses. some of them for dealing, distribution, and some of these people are pleading down to a lesser crime. they had a gun used, and my question is this -- how would you go about looking at these individuals on a case-by-case basis about releasing them? it was a selling or using -- how

do you get a handle on these individuals? guest: first of all, that's a very good question. nobody wants to endanger their customers or the other employees. i guess my suggestion would be, if you have this long. , and i'm not saying, most of the states that have adopted it, it is only misdemeanors. their only stew states -- two states that allow felonies and restricted circumstances. none of the states or proposals are including that, for instance. the legislature is really trying to limit risk while allowing for opportunity, but for an employer, it is recommended that

an employer really looked beyond -- do not automatically reject them. instead, except the application, look at the circumstances, see if it was of any threat or danger to you, and yes. look if they pled down from a violent felony to a lower one, but if the states have adopted it, most of them do not allow felonies. it is only misdemeanors. the risks are low. an employer, one of the big concerns is liability. you want to hire one of these folks with the record, and does that make you more liable for a lawsuit. we are working with a state to come up with a good solution to protect you from liability, for giving a second chance, while also having an employer liable if they hire somebody with an egregious offense.

they just ignore further customers and employees. we are still working out the details of that, but again, the lack -- laboratory of 50 states allow some play of the joint to figure out what works, but we are sensitive to employers who do not want to open up themselves to bore liability from this. we also have to say, take a second look at folks who haven't record. host: just about tournament slept. jerome, you are online with -- just about 20 minutes left. jerome. caller: excellent topic. i've been sitting here, and incidentally, i am involved in the criminal justice system.

i have been in a motion to have a record expunged. i am a discharged army veteran with a diagnosis of ptsd. i worked with missiles in the service. along with ptsd, came involvement with the criminal system. it goes with the territory. with that, it brought me inside of the colonel justice system. i wanted to say that everything is -- the topic that is going on, i have had thoughts on these things. it is just my experience. with regards to employers, i am concerned -- having concerns with convicted offenders, and with insurance purposes and things of that nature, most

states give a bonding process where they can apply for a grant , or i am not exactly sure. i've not read about it this in some time, but you can apply for bonding. you can be bonded. there is definitely a process where expungement, the exile or can go in some state to apply for what is known as a certificate of rebuild tatian. you can go to the employer when they go for job -- for an interview and so on and so forth. i also wanted to put in to the conversation to the biggest employees of ex felons, from my personal experience, i worked in the ip w, and i am a strong supporter of the unions. the way the units work, -- unions work for mike springs, you can ship -- from my

experience, you would not be on any federal contract or building contract, or thing of that nature. host: let's let nolan jump in. guest: first of all, thank you for your service to us in defending our country. that is honorable and sadly, as with my brother and other dear friends, ptsd is all too frequently a lingering wound. it stays on and it has sadly led many to them -- the colonel justice system. the points you make are good. the bonds are helpful. certifications of rehabilitation, they are excellent, but seldom used. we need to look at their regulations regarding that.

the courts have the authority to issue them, but they are reluctant to. i don't know why they are. the judge is intimately familiar with the crime and the circumstances surrounding it. if the person has shown, they can be good contributing member of the community, the circumstances show them as being rehabilitated. that would give some insulation to the employer if they are ever soon. to say, look, i have the certificate that shows the court has said i am rehabilitated. one of the problems for employers is, you know, being able to will lawsuit is different than someone being able to file one against you. the cost of defending that, even if you have a legitimate defense, like a certificate.

you make a lot of good points, and we really need to work with the employer community to say, how do we give these folks a second chance. let them get to the interviewed stage before they automatically exclude them. how does it make you feel, when applications literally are thought away before it ever his review. by the employer. at least look at it and give them a shot at explaining the circumstances and the life sentence. there is a company in pennsylvania, and when i was working with prison fellowship, the owner of that was a good friend of chuck colson, and i met with them, and the director of operations, and they hired over half of their employers. how did this come about?

the owner said, my director of operations here said we need to hired offenders. i said why the hell we do that? jesus told them to. so they did. they found that those employees they hired, and they work with prison to to identify the prospects, galvanizing is a dirty hot work. no one really wants to do that. but these guys were eager to work. bishop more often, they are loyal, they actually police each other because they don't want somebody going off the rails for the rest of them, or they are x offenders, and they have made a decision, and frankly, it is the best decision i ever made. host: for those with experience in the criminal justice system, thank you for waiting. ron, florida. caller: thank you.

i appreciate it. mr. nolan, i have never talked to a conservative and appreciated what he was doing. i think i am coming at it from a different angle. i was charged with a couple of felonies, and my saving grace was the attorney. those felonies, he negotiated time limits on them with different steps to go through to come up to an expungement at the end of it. after a 10 year time limit, everything was expunged.

i got the felonies dropped after two years, and believe it or not, i got my second offender status dropped after 10 years. but, the other point i wanted to make, if i could, and this is, i think, one of the things -- i am white. my attorney was white. the chief judge was also white. i think that is one of the problems that we have -- some people don't have good attorneys to make good cases or them, either in the beginning, middle, or the end. to help them along even before the person gets to jail or prison and then gets out.

mr. nolan? guest: i hope you will look at conservatives and libertarians differently on this. i think you will find you have a lot more in common with us then you start feeling. the movement in the states and federal government has been conservative lead. of course, liberal support, but we have been instrumental in changing the tough on crime rhetoric to be more interested in reducing crime rather than punishing and reducing the risk. i saw, imprison, racial disparity. you'd have to be a blind man not to see it. i don't think it is deliberate, but it is actual. is there. i did time with some kids, young

black and hispanic folks who, had they had the opportunity in life, would've been facing -- there was one kid who is just a delight. fun, great sense if you were, but also hard-working. if you growing up in any area other than a gang infested neighborhood, he would have been a ceo of a company. this kid was so talented. you know, the number -- one of the black kids i was with, usually, they are stuck with a public defender who has 300 files and is -- he went into a hearing, to go to trial, and he

had given the public defender a whole bunch of witnesses, and they say he was not even there. this was allegedly when it occurred, and he said, where all the witnesses. the public defender said i didn't have time to contact them. of course, he turned around and said his mother, please, go call so-and-so and so-and-so. she had eight bad reporter, and it was too late. they were deprived of his defense, which was that he was not there. he didn't have time to presented because of his public defender, and i know they are doing the best they can, but they are overwhelmed with files. they don't have the resources for investigation. not like the prosecutors. the points you make are valid, and i think, you know, to

reevaluate the criminal justice system, it has been healthy. people don't realize, it is harder and states before the federal program, and tough on crime texas. they decided that they were locking up a lot of folk and it was costing them a fortune. they had to build more prisons, and they cannot afford it. they reevaluated, and they changed the sentencing laws, and did more to help the families to stay out of trouble. it has been remarkable, the drop in crime there. i can't say -- crime statistics are always a year or two behind, but before all the pandemic, crime in texas, they closed eight new prisons, saving

billions of dollars. but the crime had dropped to the lowest level since 1967. you can have a safer public and smaller prisons and save money, all at once. it is a win win win situation. it started in conservative states like texas, georgia, louisiana, utah, and other liberal states have come along. but it was conservatives that led the way, saying this does not make any sense. host: we are running short on time, so let me take a couple of calls in a row, and we will come back to you. in ohio, experience with the kernel justice system. caller: good morning. i just want to say, type in trouble twice, and both times, it was kind of bad. but it was smoking where wanda

-- marijuana, and i am not one that was to buy a bag of weed off of somebody i don't know anything like that. so i grew a few plants of my own. just for myself. i was arrested the first time, and it wasn't too bad. it cost me $3500 to get out of there with a public defender and stuff. the second time, about 10 years later, i did it again. this time now, they took all of my sentence rights away from me, and everything. i second amendment is no longer. i've been in the oilfield. i have done heavy equipment. i've done things throughout my life, they should be able to use. now, it is against me because of this, and i don't know what else to do.

now i am legal to smoke marijuana. it is crazy, man. host: thank you for sharing your story. jimmy in neary, pennsylvania. caller: the morning, nice to hear from you. i am a retired school bus driver here in theory, pennsylvania. -- theory -- theory pennsylvania . there's always the same stuff and it is always repeat offenders, and if you want to become a school bus driver in pennsylvania, you have to fill all kinds of paperwork, and then, by chance, the person who runs the school bus, they happen to get somebody in there who has a record or, guess what, they are going to take his rights away.

there was just a case in philadelphia where, on a subway, i was c-span would've covered it. a guy on the subway, rain delay, it was a 40 minute episode. people said they dialed 911, and they get to the police to take care of the sky. they were all videoing on their phones. turns out the guy was a repeat offender. philadelphia is a sanctuary city, that is part of the problem. but i can tell you, i don't know whether the last time you spoke pot was, but this pot is laced with fentanyl. where is the fentanyl coming from? across the southern border. there was a bus down there at the border -- 40 pounds of fennel. brought up a lot of points. host: what about the last two

calls? guest: i am sorry to callers who are waiting have not had a chance to get through. you can reach me at conservative justice reform.org. i would be glad to hear any of your thoughts. as far as these cases, the less callers have it right. that fellow, he shouldn't have been prohibited. it is lately. he was a sentence offender. he cannot make this stuff up. the fact that people stood by and videoed it, rather than help the poor woman, that is just stunning to me. as a kid, i remember a case where they were murdered. people all around watched it happen. they did not come to her aid. it looked like we sunk to that

again. the first fellow, the idea that he is prohibited from working, and it is legal to smoke pot now. he was not distributing it. he was growing it for some years, but that was a violation that is not the type of client -- crime we are afraid of. it is ridiculous that he still suffers from that. and the second amendment right. i was pardoned, and i was grateful for that, and one of the big reasons i am is because i was observed. i was a marksman. after my conviction, i could not have a gun to protect my family. it really distressed me, and now i am able to carry again. i have a concealed weapon permit.

i am a good shot. we should not strip people of their second amendment if they were not involved with violence. is martha stewart a danger? should she have a gun? i've had the benefit in working for chuck olson for 13 years. was he a danger? he was next marine. you cannot -- it makes no sense. to deny people to protect himself. host: caller: pat, you touched my heart. i have worked in logistics and supply chain for 30 years. we have locked up so many kids. we need truck drivers and

forklift drivers and people to put the packages. you hit a nerve with me. for the people that smoked some pot or somebody killed and murdered, lock them up. but 20 minutes ago as you said, if you just smoked some pot, we have locked up a whole nation of attentional workers. within supply chain's, those are one of the best jobs for x gang members. they drive the forklift. they drive the truck. they don't have to interact with a lot of people. now we are in a supply chain shortage. i have been in the industry 30 years. i wanted to express to you that this is a very critical topic. host: mr. nolan, i will give you the final minute. guest: she make such a good point. we are hurting ourselves fight excluding these x offenders. there are 70 million people in the u.s. with criminal records.

that is one of out of every three adults. why are we denying them a chance to get back on their feet? especially, when they have shown for a decade or two that they are straight arrows. they are doing a good job. we are harming ourselves and the economy. also, as a nation, you know, redemption is important. these stories of people that have turned their lives around our legend. tim allen, the fellow that was in rudy charles, chuck olson. so, having committed a terrible crime should not condemn you forever. john, thank you for this chance. i am a big fan of your show. i watch it often to you i

appreciate this chance to talk with you and share thoughts on this important issue. host: pat nolan is the director emeritus at the american servant of union foundation nolan center for justice. it is conservativejustice reform.org. before we go we are saying goodbye today to our longtime producer on this program, jan ross. -- jen russ. in her goodbye imo she wrote "when i started at the washington journal as an intern, i knew i had found my place." you certainly did over 17 years. we will miss you. best of luck in your next adventure. we will see you down the road that will do it for our program today. we will be back here tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. eastern 4:00 p.m. pacific.

have a great saturday. ♪ ♪ >> keith richburg has been the printer knows his entire life. originally from detroit, michigan, worked for the washington post for 30 years. his assignments included four years in southeast asia, africa for three years, and five years in hong kong. his time is new york city church -- pure chief. -- bureau chief.

he was also in paris, and later as a china correspondence. he had his time in afghanistan and iraq. keith richburg is currently the director of the university of hong kong journalism and media studies center. we asked him to talk about his work. >> on this week's episode. you can look -- listen to book notes plus on our new c-span now app. >> you can be a part of the national conversation by participating in studentcam competition. middle and high school students, create a five to six net documentary that answers the question, how does the federal government affect your life? it must have supporting and opposing views. use c-span video clips that are

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