you can make these kinds of stops and it doesn't matter that that's not really what you are really interested in. and i think what has to thank is that the very nature of policing has to change and we need to take that role out of policing. police should be used to investigate crimes and prevent crimes. making traffic stops are a major problem because they disproportionately focus on people of color. >> tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span's q&a. you can listen to q&a and all our podcasts on the new c-span now app. ♪ host: good morning, everyone, on this sunday october 24, welcome to the washington journal. we'll kick off the conversation this morning with your confidence level and president biden's handling of the economy. republicans dial in at

202-748-8001. democrats 202-748-8000. and independents 202-748-8002. you can text us with your thoughts, include your first name, city and state at 202-748-8003 or post your comments on facebook got com/c-span and send us a tweet with the handle@cspanwj and follow us on instagram as well with the same handle. we'll kick off the conversation with the economy but first i want to show you polls to see if you agree or disyes with them. look at a cnbc poll done mid october. 54% of people polled said they disapprove of president biden's handling of the economy and 30% said they approve.

the university of michigan consumer survey done in october as well found that 48% believed government was doing a poor job on economic policy, 33% government doing a fair job, and 19% say the government is doing a good job. do you agree or disagree? republicans are saying president biden is not doing a good job on the economy and they blame him for inflation for the rising cost of goods across the country. listen to the republican leader in the house, kevin mccarthy of california earlier this week. [ 51% of [video clip] >> 61% know what is causing the

problem. 41% of the democrats believe their own policies are creating the inflation. whether the bill is $4.5 trillion, the democrats' proposal will worsen inflation and continue to harbor and harm our labor shortage. it won't do anything to stop the border crisis we have today and it will set our country back for decades. we cannot afford this, not ever, and especially not now. americans are finding life today much harder than they did just a short year ago. because you go to the grocery store it will cost you $200 more over the course of the year. you're being warned that you've got to shop for christmas now if you want to be able to get anything. if you want to be able to get anything. every time you go to fill up your gas, it is higher. with the winter around the corner, you are being told to brace for heating bills that will cost 54% more. could you imagine being in

america today that tomorrow will not be better than today? and bg tomorrow will not be better but will cost you more? economic conditions are expected to continue to deteriorate. democrats want americans to lower expectations. you have heard me compare this administration to jimmy carter. if you look back to 1979, there are some very eerie similarities. in a timely when jimmy carter had americans being held hostage in the middle east, joe biden created the same problem for america. you have inflation. the same challenge we had with jimmy carter. host: the leader of the republicans in the house, kevin mccarthy. the state of the economy, the

snapshot taken for september. the unemployment rate, 4.8%, 194,000 jobs added. president biden at the cnn town hall this past week was asked about people returning to work. here is how he responded about the state of the economy overall. [video clip] >> is there anything you can do to encourage people to go back to work or make jobs more attractive? >> first of all, we have created more jobs in the first eight months of my administration the any president in american history -- administration man -- than any president in american history. people are reluctant to go back to their jobs because they are afraid of covid, many of them, so they don't want to go back, be exposed to customers because they are not required to

wear masks or have shots, or they do not want to go back because they are not sure the people are waiting at the table or coming up from the food market. that is number one. number two, that is why, you know, we were able to go from when i was first elected, where only 2 million people had covid shots in the united states of america, the vaccine. now we have 190 million because i went out and bought everything i could do and it worked. here's the deal. the second thing that's happening is people are now using this as an opportunity to say, wait, do i want to go back to the seven dollars an hour job? i will not name the particular restaurant chain, but they found out, when they couldn't hire anybody, they started to pay $20 an hour. everybody wanted to go back to work. not a joke.

so wages are up for those who are working because for the first time in a long time employees are able to bargain. you are the boss? you want me to work for you? what are you going to pay me? host: how is he handling the economy? a look at this headline in a poll cited in it. president biden losing support amid concerns over the economy and immigration. "in 2020 exit polling, president biden won independent voters by 51% to 44%. if the election were held today, our poll shows president trump winning that group. it is a massive shift in the demographic that helped carry biden to victory less than two years ago." linda in mississippi, democratic

caller, what do you think, linda? how is he doing? caller: i think he is doing great, because when he came in, the former president did not do the transition of government, did not give them the tools to do what he needed to do when he came in, and trump left him a great big mess. he has not even been office a year. it took him four years to mess this country up and i think joe biden is doing a great job. host: so you say we cannot judge him quite yet. caller: no, ma'am. you all gave trump four years, a demagogue. he came into a great economy because of obama. he did nothing but talk about what was wrong with this country, and let me speak about mccarthy. mccarthy knows republicans have

no ground to stand on. they do nothing but stand on the sidelines and throw rocks. if this country falls, it will be because those spineless, do-nothing republicans -- because of those spineless, do-nothing republicans. biden is trying to bring this country -- host: what do you like about what he is doing on the economy? what is working? caller: i think he is working with the congress trying to get the infrastructure. he's working with the congress and the senate, those we are trying to get, not like republicans, always trying to give the rich a tax cut, and those of us at the bottom, one thing -- host: so you are in favor of president biden's proposal to raise taxes on those making over

$400,000 and increase the corporate tax rate? caller: yes, ma'am, because the republicans gave the rich a big old tax cut, gave us nothing. we got the crumbs, and they ran over there and took a picture with trump. host: so, linda, as a democrat, let me ask you. what is your wish from senator sinema and senator manchin? caller: get with the program. host: thank you. caller, how do you think he is handling the economy? caller: a terrible job. everything costs more. he is not creating any jobs.

the jobs are just coming back that were shut down during the pandemic. host: are you worried about gas prices? caller: yes. i am worried about gas prices. we were energy efficient on our own, did not have to buy anything, and now he is begging opec to pump more oil. his plan is idiotic. i feel sorry for them. i think he is losing it big time. host: what is the price of gas in your neck of the woods? caller: $3.26. host: how does that compare to a year ago? caller: better than a dollar higher than it was a year ago. host: a dollar higher a year ago? caller: a dollar less. host: got it. caller: a friend of mine just bought fuel oil.

it was $3.16 a gallon, almost as high as gasoline. i don't know how people are going to make it this year with the fuel, the heating oil and stuff. host: in the wintertime? caller: yes. host: what are you hearing from your friends and family about that expense and their fears it could go up in december, january, february, march in ohio? caller: they are worried about it. a friend just told me about it being $3.16 a gallon. he has a wood burner. he doesn't have a big house. he's just got a little two bedroom house, and he's on a fixed income just like myself. biden promised he would raise our social security. that is one thing he never -- he got everybody else. all these immigrants doing that

stuff. not a nickel in social security. host: you are in a fixed income. your social security has in ghana. one -- what has gone up for your bills? caller: everything has gone out. electricity, gas, food, everything. host: so what are you doing? how are you compensating? guest: caller: doing without -- caller: doing without some stuff. host: what are you going without? caller: i cut my cable down. i cannot afford the cable. should not have had it in the first place. host: how are you watching us? caller: i cut back on it. i had a bunch of extra channels. host: i see. ok. good. caller: i went back to basic cable. host: you got to keep c-span

with basic cable. caller: yeah, thank god you are on basic cable. host: we appreciate you watching. that is how we operate. however you get your cable, your provider provides c-span to you as a public service, so that's how you get to watch us and participate in the conversation. the president was asked at that scene in town hall about gas prices. here is what he had to say. [video clip] >> gas prices relate to a foreign policy that's about something that goes beyond the cost of gas. we are at about $3.3 a gallon in most places, when it was down in the single digits -- i mean, single digits, a dollar plus. that is because of an amount withheld by opec, so there's a lot of negotiation that is -- there's a lot of middle eastern

folks that want to talk to me. i am not sure i will talk to them, but it is about gas production. host: do you see a timeline for when gas prices may start coming down? caller: i would guess you will start to see gas prices come down as we get by going into the winter -- excuse me, end of next year, 2022. i don't see anything happening in the meantime that will significantly reduce gas prices, but, for example, for natural gas to heat your home, because the winter is coming, we put in billions of dollars in what we call liheat, a provision of the federal government subsidizing that in a significant way and there's billions of dollars passed, that i got passed in

march of this year, but the answer, ultimately, is investing in renewable energy. host: president biden on the price of gas in this country. listening to his answer, what is your reaction? gary a silver spring -- gary in silver springs, maryland, an independent, what is your thought? caller: i don't understand why people are talking about the 700,000 people died. a lot of those people worked, so when they died they left vacancies. i don't think joe can do anymore for this economy than trump may have done. people are not factoring in the numbers as far as i am

concerned. how -- if two members of a family die, those are two working people. i think he has done the best he can but the economy -- talking about these people who have died, who have contributed to the economy. host: so do you support president biden's efforts on capitol hill to pass more spending, increased spending, in response to the economy, child tax credits, universal pre-k, community college paid for, all those proposals the democrats are negotiating, and have been for weeks, trying to reach an agreement among themselves about how much to spend? do you think they should spend $3 trillion, $4 trillion, or do you think the number should be lower?

caller: based on what has been proposed in the bill -- and i have not read all of it -- the only problem i have is free tuition for college. they should help people who cannot afford to go, but i am not in favor of paying free tuition for people, you know, to go to college. i am not in favor of that. host: you would compromise if you were in the room. caller: yes. i would, absolutely i would compromise, yes. host: hernando, hollywood, florida, we will go to you next. hi, hernando. caller: hello. host: how is he handling the economy? caller: terrible. i feel as an american, i feel we are being held back by at least 20 years and i wish that he would be more aggressive and

more understanding. host: in what ways, hernando? how is he being held back. -- held back? caller: gas prices. i'm working at least 85, 90 hours a week, and -- what else? -- everything else is going up. and just in general, everything, electricity, rent has gone up dramatically. host: are you working more hours now than you did a year ago because of rising prices? caller: yes, ma'am. host: you are? caller: yes, ma'am. host: how many hours were you working a year ago? caller: i was working at least about 48 hours.

host: what do you do for a living? caller: i work at a -- i work at a club at a gas station -- at a club and a gas station. host: two jobs. caller: yes. host: and are you able to pay the bills every month with two jobs? caller: yes, ma'am. host: thanks for calling in. joe in north carolina, democratic color. joe, did you vote for president biden? caller: did i vote for biden? host: yes. caller: i did. i don't believe it has anything to do with biden or trump or any of them. we are in a corporate dictatorship. that is where we are now paired gas was going up before -- where we are now.

gas was going up before trump got of -- got out of office. it was already going back up. i live very well. i used my common sense. that is what people in this country do not use, there common sense. in the congress, the senate. you have bribers walking around in the congress and the senate calling themselves lobbyists. what is wrong with this country? the thing about it is they let racism divide them. it has been going on since slavery. these people do not understand. the longer they can keep racism involved -- they run anything and we sit back like idiots. host: joe in north carolina,

democratic caller. a headline -- biden finds even victory has its costs. the campaign to unseat donald trump was simple, remove a stubborn leader with one with a proven record of taking half a loaf, seeming to have brought biden to the precipice of victory in a $2.5 trillion deal that could begin to cement his legacy as a policy architect. the bill is certain to be far smaller than what he originally proposed, less ambitious than he and many allies had hoped. he will not be the one who secured free community college for everyone, free dental, vision coverage for medicare,

and there will not be any new penalties for the worst polluters. on what should be negotiated on capitol hill, a compromise between the liberal and moderate parts of the democratic party. on the senate floor, missouri republican lloyd blunt, as republicans have been doing for weeks, criticized negotiations by the party, the efforts by them, to pass this so-called reconciliation package. here is what he had to say. [video clip] >> the big spending spree began in march with a totally partisan, one side of the aisle only, $2 trillion so-called covid-19 relief law, but frankly, it was a recovery plan when a recovery was well underway. i think the recovery plan slowed the recovery, made it less likely that people would get back to work and more likely that people would have money to spend that they would not have otherwise and drive inflation.

the expert opinion of economists on both sides of the aisle, who said that what was done in march of this year would assure that inflation would rise. it is the same thing they are saying about the bill that's being debated now. it has already happened and it is happening. americans are paying more for everything from groceries to gasoline to a big purchase like a new or used car, even, selling at a new sudden premium. consumer prices have jumped 5.4% from when you're ago. that is not the kind of thing that does anything to help families. in fact, according to moody's analytics, a family earning an average income of about $70,000 spending an extra $175 a month on food, fuel and housing because of what that article

referred to as president biden's inflation. host: lloyd blunt, the senator from missouri, republican, on the floor. to one caller saying he was living on a fixed income, i want to share this article from yahoo! finance. why a 6% cost-of-living increase to social security could be a double-edged sword. let me read you it. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2021] social -- social security coulde getting the biggest boost potentially in the last two years. the cola calculation will be made based on the third quarter. the social security administration announces the amount and october -- amount in

october and increased benefits go into effect in january. while the increase may seem substantial it does not necessarily mean a bigger income. everything is 6% more expensive these days and that is the minimum needed to maintain the purchasing power you have had. kathy, a republican in texas, your thoughts? caller: the last guy was spot on. our government is being hijacked by communists. but anyway, biden is not all they, everyone can see it. but when he is there -- supply chains, high gas, people losing their job, encouraging illegals to invade our country the country is going crazy. when president trump was in office we were protected by him,

low gas, unbelievable what he is doing, you will, democrats, stop defending this man. he is harming our country. host: how has your economic picture changed month-to-month? what does it look like now? how different is it that a year ago? caller: if my husband didn't get forced into getting his vaccination, he would not be working right now. this is a real thing. there is covid. we are not idiots. the bulk of society is fine. i think that this man is ruining this country using covid as an excuse, ok? i don't know what to tell you. gas is higher, food is higher, everything is higher, and you get on tv defending this man. you will never see one thing

that against him. he is a joke. you see what they are doing in the stadiums? the kids cannot stand him. they are saying "fu, biden." the communists. thank you. host: thank you. how did you vote, caller, in 2020? caller: thank you for giving the opportunity for everybody to voice their opinions. i have been working since i was nine years old and paying taxes -- a paper route, you know? i am permanently disabled and i am completely reliant on state and federal processes and money to get by, to keep my body alive and maybe i should just die like

all the other people who are immuno compromised, like, i'm allergic to the vaccine, but i am a person that -- i am a patriotic person, and i just feel like there's this terrible sense of neglect when it comes to accountability for what is spent. i used to be an auditor, like, an internal auditor for billions of dollars of programs and i think how -- and i know how they are monitored, but i don't see that with this current trillion-dollar, $2 trillion, $3 trillion, you know, i don't see where that is going to elvis build and -- to help us build and pull down the costs better drowning people. people are already not able to

go back to work. i cannot buy healthy food with what i get now. a year ago, i could buy fresh vegetables, fresh fruit, and now i am stuck with canned. and i have diabetes now, for crying out loud, like, this has a deep impact on everyone. and i don't think that any one president is responsible or in charge of a pandemic, you know? -- making a disaster out of our country, but i do think we need strong language and strong leadership that says "we are still in this together." and republicans and democrats agitating for civil war. i watch c-span around-the-clock at i love it because i don't have to deal with the spin of

the news channels, people pandering to the democrats, the republicans. and i would like to see for them to get together and say this is how we serve the people that we are responsible to. and those are my thoughts. i appreciate you letting me on to share them. host: thank you for calling in, robin. steve, oak ridge, tennessee, democratic caller. hi, steve. caller: good morning. the fishing in one spot north carolina has been terrible. the economy, let's get to that. first off, let's talk about the price of oil. you know, in 2017, you had a senator from north dakota on your program talking about the

pipeline and he flat out said we want that pipeline to sell oil on the open market. there was nothing about independence for american energy. it was about selling the oil. the next thing about that is i want to say, in tennessee, gasoline was $2.89 a gallon until two weeks ago, when it went to $3.09, so it has gone up. a man called earlier, talking about some 125,000 dead americans. how many of those people were working, had jobs that are still jobs that are not easy to replace? energy independence. if we had been energy independent all this time, than we wouldn't be buying oil from saudi arabia, which we have been doing old-time. the stimulus package, i think it

was an overreach. i think it was on purpose to get some things done. host: are you talking about the bill they passed in march? caller: the bill they passed in march, i think, was probably a pretty good bill, but this when they are talking about now with the infrastructure, i think they are going overboard with a lot of that, but i think it needs to be whittled down. so it bothers me when republicans call and say, or republican congressmen come on and say, that democrats are refusing to compromise and do a bipartisan bill, when the first thing they do is say take this, this, and this out, or we will not even talk to you. that is not how you compromise. that lady that called a few minutes ago, the hate in that

woman's voice, it is disturbing to me that people in this country have so much hate in their hearts and what do you think the world's thinking when we look at -- when they look at what is going on here? what do our allies, our enemies think? host: let me ask you, based on everything you are seeing happening in this first year of the president's tenure, how motivated were you to vote in the 2020 election? on a scale of one to 10? caller: i was -- i would say 10, but i have voted in every presidential election since i was eligible and i am 72 years old. host: so you are always going to vote? caller: i am always going to vote. host: do you always vote democrat? caller: as far as the president is concerned, i have. now, as far as other offices,

governorships, i lived in north carolina until two years ago and i voted for republican governors in north carolina, so ifo based on who i think will do the best job -- so i vote based on who i think will do the best job. host: do you feel the enthusiasm level for president biden is the same as it was heading into the november 2020 election or has it decreased? caller: i think, as far as i am concerned, like i said, as a retired teacher, i think he is doing a great job. i think the withdrawal from afghanistan could have been handled somewhat better. you know, you look at getting 120,000 people out of their? that's amazing if you think about it.

the situation at the border could have been handled better. you know, in exodus, it talks about a lady named miriam, who puts her son, moses, into the river, hoping -- host: sorry about that. i pushed the wrong button. billy in texas, a republican, we will go to you next. caller: good morning. a preacher this morning. biden handling the economy. biden is not handling a thing. biden is a patsy -- pansy. that is what we have for a president now. he is not handling anything.

he is a puppet. host: let's go to the labor secretary, who had a washington -- who will, at a -- who, at a washington post event, had this to say about jobs. [video clip] >> in the long run, i view it as a potential opportunity. president biden, when he ran for president and got elected, used the phrase build back better, and the intention behind that was creating pathways into the middle class. many of the people thought in the great resignation, if you will, some of the people in that category work in high-paying jobs and are realizing they want to change their work-life balance. they have been working 15, 16 hours a day. they wanted a change. the majority of those workers are working in low income housing and not making a lot of

money and i think a lot of people, including myself, spent a lot of time during the pandemic, having dinner at the kitchen table at 5:00 at night, like i did as a kid, like a lot of people did, and we were not going out, spending time with their families, and people started thinking about what they were doing with their lives. -- to make investments, to help people better themselves for the next career they go into. they have an opportunity to get into the middle class. that is the president's plan behind build back better, moving people into the middle class. i spent a lot of weak thinking about communities of color, the black and latino community, and how do we make life better for people, still living, paying rent, don't own a home, with no prospect of owning a home, trying to raise a family?

how can we make their life better? it came down to making investments in workforce development. host: the president's labor secretary at a washington post event. harry in georgia, independent, how do you think the president is doing on the economy? caller: i am afraid i will have to defend him a little bit after everything i'm hearing. good morning to you. good morning, america. the first thing to know about macroeconomics, so how the economy is doing in general, you get taught, if you study that in college, that it takes about 18 months for any policy changes , either monetary or fiscal, to work their way into the economy, so there's really not much that joe biden has done that you are feeling in the economy yet. now, people talk about the keystone pipeline. i will try and read through some

of these issues that have been raised. keystone pipeline, that oil was coming from canada. it was good work for refiners in louisiana but it was being shipped to china, so that oil has nothing to do -- it has to do with, maybe, welders jobs on the pipeline and stuff like that. someone raise the issue of social security. -- someone raised the issue of social security. you did bring up that there will be the biggest phrase ever in social security in october or november. you will get that notification. the issue of gas prices being up, remember, we had this hacked pipeline, the colonial pipeline, that russian hackers shut down. that caused a price crunch

because of lack of supply. same as these hurricanes in the gulf. they shut down a lot of these pumping stations out in the gulf of mexico. also, people have been driving less during the pandemic. that's having a huge impact on demand, so the company shut down a lot of their most high-priced pumping in this country because they shut down pumping when there is no demand. now the price is up. they should be opening up more, but it takes a while to start up again. the natural gas, also, when the demand for natural gas goes down because of industry slowing down, the frackers usually are the first to shut down because that is the most expensive way of getting natural gas. now, the issue of federal unemployment

compensation, in georgia here, they cut that off in july. that has not sent more people back to work. people are still -- women cannot go back to work because there's no childcare available. maybe that will change if kids can go back to school, but -- and that extra money certainly is not keeping people from going back to work. i don't know why. people are still afraid. there are so many people out there who won't get vaccinated for some reason. and, you know, the federal reserve and the secretary of the treasury are both encouraging the congress to go as big as possible on this infrastructure bill because that will stimulate the economy, so there's a lot of

issues out here that are homing back -- are holding back, raising the cost of gas, holding back the economy. a lot of it is just fear of covid still. host: thank you for watching that -- for walking us through that. caller in california, good morning. caller: a couple things. people are forgetting the last two years of the obama administration. we got no costs of living increases. in one year of the trump administration, we got no cost-of-living increase. this 6% should be more like 10% or 11% to bring us back to where we should be. number two, the price of gasoline, they just had a special on tv 24 three nights ago -- on tv two or three nights

ago that the price of gasoline in west los angeles was above four dollars a gallon. talk about what the prices of what people in california have to pay for gas, because we are i guess one of the biggest users of gasoline and it blows me away that people in america are paying, like, in the low three dollars range. it is half of what we get to pay. there was another thing that i forget, but the thing is that we are so far behind in cost-of-living increases, what i am paying now is absolutely nuts. i mean, i am actually going to have to move out of state because i cannot afford to live here anymore. host: where will you go to, charlie? caller: the midwest more than likely. more than likely the midwest. a little past texas because it is a lot cheaper there.

my money will go almost three times as much, what i am paying for rent here is $2000 a month for 600 square feet, and over there, where i have a few friends who have moved, they are paying them for a house, a three bedroom, two bath house, and to me, that is a place to live, a home, a roof over your head. it is very important. it is the foundation. i just -- i cannot believe i forgot the last thing. host: we will leave it there because i have a tweet to share with you as well on gas and oil prices. i will say this again. i remember when gas prices were high-end everyone sold their gas guzzlers. this is not new. we will go to tyrone in essex,

maryland, democratic caller. good morning to you. caller: thank you for taking my call. i have a few things to say. a lot of people are always talking about donald trump. to me, he wrecked the country and made us go back to hundred years because he brought racism out in front. it was always hidden but people have learned to deal with it. now they think that it is ok with prejudice. you are always talking about people coming from foreign countries here. most of us did. we were not born here. why can't it be america? because at the end of the day, for us to fight over, this land -- host: what about the economy, though? how does this relate to our question? caller: because biden is doing what he can do.

republicans will try to stop them from anything he tries to do. they did the same thing to obama. and before he even got an office, they always talked about, we are not going to let this go through. rich people, like he said, donald trump, not paying taxes. i have spent my life in the military. we pay more taxes than rich people. if you can pay someone a hundred million dollars to pay football for two years, you can come up with the money to do that, why can't you do that for poor people? you have people who served and live on the street. host: the democrats have the numbers in the house and the senate. thin margins in the senate. if they want to pass something, they can using reconciliation, because it only takes 50 votes, and if they don't have all of them, the vice president will have the tie-breaking vote, so right now, they can do this.

they are negotiating with them -- negotiating within their party about the number, how much money should they actually spend. republicans are arguing they want to spend too much. this is kevin cramer on foxbusiness news. [video clip] >> there are a bunch of gimmicks you can use that embed the policies, which is worse than the price tag, because policies are forever. it is difficult to rollback an entitlement program that gets put in place even for a short time, so you can mess with the price tag, but these tax policies, i mean, you mention unrealized gains. that is their latest effort to disguise this as something other than a tax increase. one thing we have to remember that is important in our exceptional system, 50 republican senators have never flinched, blinked.

we are united in our opposition. we need everybody on board, but the key, larry, is that the american people are experiencing the ramifications of bad public policy coming out of the white house. this inflation is real. it is not transitory. it is big. you can say that the president does not say gasoline prices, but when you cut production and half, it affects -- production in half, it affects the markets. this is squarely on joe biden, him and his office money. the bill in march, none of that is paid for. all of that is borrowed on the backs of future generations. but that increases, in an artificial way, demand, without the supply to meet that demand. in fact, shrinking the supply, so he is the cause of all this disruption in our economy, and

the american people know it. host: the senator from north dakota, republican, kevin cramer on foxbusiness. we are asking you on your confidence level -- asking you about your confidence level regarding president biden's handling of the economy. good morning. caller: good morning. yeah, well, everybody is getting what they voted for. biden is one of the most insane communists we have ever had in washington, d.c. his cabinet needs to be dismantled. host: how is he incompetent? caller: they don't know what they are doing. he doesn't know what day it is. host: what are they doing, what specific actions are they taking do you think showing competency? caller: they have created a crisis of everything that he has touched. you cannot name one thing he has

done that has been an improvement on the u.s. host: how does that relate to the economy? caller: everything in the economy and every step out here. for instance, i live within seven miles of three refineries, and the refineries are running on just about a quarter production. ok? diesel in this country, when you kill it, diesel is dead -- the country is dead, because everything runs on diesel. transport. refineries come if they can produce diesel, this country is dead. biden needs to be kicked out of office before he completely destroys the united states. host: all right. glenn's thoughts there, a republican. jerry, a democrat in tennessee, livingston, tennessee, hi,

jerry. your next. -- you are next. caller: look at the numbers when biden was in office, 9%? now, what is it, 4.5%? i was at the lumber yard yesterday and building materials have come way down. we are on the road to recovery. look at the vaccines he's gone out since he took office. seniors are fixing to get a raise, you know? i think people are just down on america too much right now, especially the republicans. i think they really are and i don't know why. host: we will go to john in pennsylvania, a republican. what do you think? how do you think the president is handling the economy? caller: horrible. i am a small business owner. i could understand one gentleman that called up earlier who did

not have a high school diploma who thought joe biden was doing a great job. a retired schoolteacher gave him a b? that is why our system is failing. you have schoolteachers that don't have enough education or intelligence to see this guy is ruining this country. the town hall -- talking about the restaurant, they paid the workers $20 an hour. i cannot go to wendy's anymore because the value meals are over $10. somebody has to pay for. -- pay for that. he doesn't realize that. he thinks you can go to mcdonald's and mortgage a new house. that's not who the jobs are for. they are for college kids or retired seniors who want to

supplement their health insurance, but these jobs are not made for people to raise a family. this is getting ridiculous. gas went up $.10 overnight hearing pennsylvania. -- overnight here in pennsylvania. diesel went up almost to four dollars a galant. -- a gallon. host: you are a small business owner. how has this impacted your business? caller: i just gave a woman a quote last week. she did not blow up on me, but she was, like, oh, that's crazy. that is one of the best quotes i have gotten. now we have to pay $20 an hour now. if you have to pay these people more money in our and everything you're buying, a bottle of bleach, which i used to get for $.99, now costs $4.98.

now i have to get negative feedback from my customers. i'm getting no calls, practically, for houses. all my calls have been repeat customers, you know, my regulars, you might call them, so, yeah, i am telling you -- host: so in order to have workers, you had to go from how much you paid them before to what you are paying them now? caller: it was mainly a summer job and these people were college kids or younger and i started them at $10 an hour. i immediately had to go to $13 an hour and i got one person working for me. one person. the rest of them, they don't care. they want that $20 an hour. and this is a seasonal job, and it is not meant to, you know, raise a family on. one guy that is working for me is working two jobs, ok?

so that is who i have now, angelman working two jobs. -- now, a gentleman working two jobs. host: how much do you pay him an hour? caller: $13 an hour, which i know is not great, but what am i going to do? people thing my estimates are too high. it is like a big, giant circle. it all comes back to you. people don't understand that. host: john, have you seen your profits decreased? caller: what? host: have you seen your profits decreased, what you take home? caller: yes. i will not know until the end of the season when i file my income taxes, because i don't do quarterly since i don't work all year, so i file at the end of the year, so i cannot tell you exactly, but yeah. i can tell you from phone calls and the amount of deposits that

i've got every month when i do my deposits, cashing checks. host: thank you for calling in and sharing your story. henry, springville, florida, independent. good morning. hi, henry. caller: good morning. sunday morning. i want to talk about consumer confidence. i would say america's confidence has gone down by the actions of the democratic party. the first day in office, we rescinded our keystone pipeline, our border policies, wisdom is proven by its actions and mr. biden, i believe, is incompetent of running the country. i believe someone else is doing it for him. thank you and that's all i have to say. host: if you missed it at the top, we showed you a recent poll from mid-october. they found that of those surveyed, 46% say the economy

will get worse in the year ahead. 47% believe there will be a recession in the next year. 79% judge the economy as just fair or poor. stanley in massachusetts, an independent. hi, stanley. go ahead. caller: like you say, we had one idiot in the second one. -- idiot and then a second one. producers cannot move food off the fields, cannot get the labor to do it because joe biden is handing out money left and right. someone has got to pay for all this. at the same time, this covid, like i say, is running rampant because of people who are compromising their immune system. meanwhile, people who don't use those things are penalized and have to take mandated vaccines.

two friends of mine took the vaccine, wound up in the hospital because the vaccine caused direct damage -- something they had, it kicked it back up into their face real bad. host: what do you do for a living, stanley? caller: oh, i moved myself slowly up. i should be getting retired. i didn't pay into the system because the doctors lied about what causes cancer. i had liver cancer. i did not get to know about it until three years later. when my pc did an ultrasound, the cancer is gone. i have a hole in my liver where the cancer was. cancer has nothing to do with your immune system. it runs on ph. they keep lying and lying. the people right now, it is just

drug companies making more and more offensive drugs. at the same time, compromising their immune system. it is the ph of your body. find out what you are. alkaline or acidic body? eat according to what you are. remember -- acid rain. everything is becoming more acidic. host: stanley massachusetts. -- stanley in massachusetts. we will leave it there. ohio democrat stephen pepper joins us after the break on his book laboratories of autocracy, about what he describes as attacks tax on democracy taking place in various state legislatures, and, later, author batya ungar-sargon talks about her new book, bad news: how woke media is undermining democracy. we will be right back. ♪

>> this week on the c-span networks, house and senate are both in session. on monday at 9:30 a.m. eastern on c-span two, whistleblower frances haugen testifies. tuesday at 8:30 a.m. eastern on c-span three the fda advisory committee meets to consider authorization of pfizer's covid vaccine for children five to 11 years old. we will have live coverage of congressional hearings on c-span.org and the c-span now mobile video app. at 9:30 a.m. eastern, the armed services committee will hold a hearing on the security situation in afghanistan and the region. at 10:00 a.m. eastern, representatives from to knock, snap chat, and youtube testify in front of the commerce committee on children and social media. wednesday at 10:00 eastern, and c-span-3, merrick garland testifies before the judiciary

committee on issues facing the justice department. on thursday at 9:00 eastern on c-span-3, the heads of four major oil companies and other industry leaders will testify before the house oversight and reform committee about information fossil fuel industry publishes on climate change. watch this week on the c-span networks are watch our full coverage on c-span now, our new video app. also head over to c-span.org for scheduling information or to stream video, live or on-demand, anytime. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. >> weekends on c-span two are an intellectual feast. every saturday, events and events on american history. discover, explore, weekends on

c-span two. >> "washington journal" continues. host: david pepper joins us, the former ohio democratic party chair and author of the book “laboratories of autocracy: a wake-up call from behind the lines.” tell us about the title. what are you talking about? guest: some will recognize i am taking off of the term that has been used to talk about states that there are laboratories of democracy. for years we thought about them that way and and sometimes they have been. but among the 50 states of one state will try something and it does a good job for democracy and other states model off of it and sometimes it becomes national. the health care plan for example became something that the obama

administration used to fill a national health care plan. the point of my book is that there are other times in our history where states have had the opposite role and have done things that became popular that were negative. jim crow era was an example. it was the state legislature domino effect around the country. the point of the book is to say for the past decade and accelerating the last couple of years including this year, statehouses across the country, places where people couldn't name their representatives, mainly unknown, honest politicians through voter suppression or gerrymandering districts, some people have no choices or laws regulating protests, they are taking more and more steps that get at the heart of our democracy, passing laws and other states are doing the same thing.

it is spiraling quickly. this is a view that gets lost in washington. people know it is happening to some degree but it doesn't get much attention. amid all of the debate over marjorie taylor greene or the congresswoman from colorado who largely don't do anything, they are talking, there are hundreds of people who are legislating and putting into place laws that really undermine democracy and they are going into effect in the long-term danger of this is the statehouses control our elections. they set the rules, districts. if they keep doing what they are doing, it doesn't only have a destructive impact within the state, and has an impact nationwide. i am trying to raise an alarm. i am very disturbed by it. i think there are things we can do if we understand what is happening. host: is this a coordinated effort, david pepper?

guest: it started out i would say a few years back where each state was doing its own thing, but at this point it is coordinated. there are groups that have figured out they can get far more done through statehouses and congress. statehouses are rushing bills through and there are groups that 10 years ago especially relate figured out that was the name of the game. we have seen a group called heritage foundation was literally bragging about how it had written a number of the laws attacking voters in places like georgia and other states. it has become coordinated. sometimes it is social causes, sometimes it is a voting issues and right now it is also gerrymandering, where there are people behind the scenes who are in some cases using the state

representatives as their puppets to push through different types of laws, and they brag about it. there is a group that has conferences where they fly legislators in and put together model legislation on everything you can think about, and send them back to the capital cities and they pass them. at this point it is highly coordinated which is putting the problem on steroids. these statehouses have long been the achilles of american governance and some groups are that out and are taking advantage. host: from the book you write, the onslaught has been so fierce, it is easy for everyday americans seeking a political respite after the trump presidency or seeking normalcy amid a pandemic to lose sight of what is happening and to often they put that in the box of a voting rights, we have seen for years. others attribute these attacks

to donald trump's big lie. when you pull back the lens and observe how broad the onslaught is, we are expensing something much deeper, a coordinated weaponization of statehouses to undermine american topography it -- american democracy and where it could head into 2022 and 2024 and even permanently it is downright frightening. what do you mean downright frightening? guest: i have a chapter in the book called come with great power comes great anonymity. the great power part should frighten people. these legislatures, by the u.s. constitution, are given the power to set the rules of elections, to set the rules of how electors are chosen and to draw out the maps that include congress and their own

statehouse. in the hands of people -- and one of the points the book makes is because of terrible it into thousand 11, we are essentially living with -- in 2011, we have a generation of officials in statehouses who themselves have never been in real elections. they are in districts they cannot lose. democracy is not something they have experienced. they know that if they were in the real election they would lose, because there are positions are not ones that make for good politics if voters have a choice. so this group of folks who are fearful of elections also set the rules for the elections, how is that going to work out? it not. they will do what they can where you are seeing in ohio, texas, wisconsin. if they are in power in 2022 and

2024, these are also those who will be setting the rules for the presidential election and also the ones who can determine how electors are chosen for the presidency. that is a whole lot of power. it should worry people and i think it prompts action at the federal level. we are seeing debates about voting rights. should the filibuster get in the way, absolutely not. the founding fathers of this country gave states a lot of power and they were if states ever became undemocratic that they would become dangerous to the overall democracy. so they said to the federal government, you must guarantee that states have democracy. the filibuster has no business getting in the way of that. everyday people need to step up and we need to engage on the state level. you need to have knowledge of who your state representative

is. if they are for democracy, great, if not, challenge them. if we don't do that, the prospects are frightening. a number of the state legislators were part of january 6. others are part of some groups like the oath keepers, which should disturb us. the most dangerous part of these lawmakers is that they are lawmakers and states, because more than a protest rally or a group, it is as lawmakers they could actually change the rules of elections. and that is where they are more dangerous, more than what they did on january 6. they set the terms of elections and can also pass laws that impact everyone's lives, like what they did in texas on a whole lot of abortion bands. it should frighten us. you read the comment about the "big lie," and that is not

happening from it it predates the big lie. legislators have been doing that. they did after obama won. it is what is fueling them to go faster and this activity and the lack of democracy in the states was before the big lie it was first uttered by donald trump. host: are you raising the alarm because you are a democrat in your party will be hurt? guest: my book is very clear that the battle to take this on has to go beyond one party. we need people who care about democracy and states in the nation to step up. democrats need to stop fighting about other things when they are all on the same page of democracy. and to the extent republicans, even if we don't agree on other issues, are saying that we have to team up.

the voting rights act was re-signed by ronald reagan and george w. bush after almost unanimous votes in favor of it in the senate and house. not long ago, views about democracy, views that you stand for democracy against all other things and basic voter protections, this will not partition. this is something that once you broaden the lens, this is about attacks on democracy that has to stop. my worry is it doesn't happen that way. we have a real historic precedent for what is happening and it is called the jim crow era. people didn't see how that it was getting or were aware of its

or they at least let disputes on other issues divide them while folks were trying to destroy democracy in the south and those divisions allowed it to happen. i happen to be a democrat and i am proud to be a democrat, but if you are for protecting micro see of any -- protecting democracy of any part, welcome to the team. host: are they doing anything illegal? guest: right now in ohio there openly violating the constitution. 70% of ohio voters twice voted to change the rules of the ohio constitution to require a transparent and fair districting process. the current statehouse majority, they don't know what the voters are about, they have violated the constitution again and again and they are in secret. in the ohio supreme court, i

think they are going to get a wake-up call when the court rules on their case. but in many cases, the law in texas that is controversial, that isn't open violation could one of the things that is happening, because this is happening in statehouses, it creates some sense of legitimacy. a lot of these laws are holy illegitimate. they got away with it because they are the ones in power. one of the things that shows you they are worried about legality is they are trying to change the rules of how courts are elected in places like ohio. that has already happened in ohio. all around the country statehouses are trying to change the rules about how the judges are elected or selected. you mentioned is it illegal,

these very rigged statehouses that the folks to work to get reelected, they are corrupt as can be. another point of illegality, ohio has had one corruption scandal after the next, people going to jail and being indicted. so part and parcel with an elected system that essentially is rigged, is that they get more taken out by the private interests during money at them and they find themselves breaking the law of the time. the districts are so rigged a lot of them still win reelection even as the prosecutions are taking place. there is a whole lot of illegality tied to it. but the problem is the systems are so gerrymandered that even when the illegality, there is very rarely accountability in politics. i don't say it probably and i

don't mean to offend viewers of ohio, we were ranked by usa today as the most corrupt state in the country. we had a for-profit charter school scam. we had people sitting around with payday lenders. we had a company come up with a bailout that the fbi is now investigating. part and parcel with all of this is a lot of illegality, corruption, violating the constitution, but not enough accountability. host: david pepper is our guest here. he will take your questions. caller: i love c-span and i love "washington journal." i watch the hosts just to learn how to talk to people. you do an excellent job.

i wanted our guest to know that i agree largely with everything that was said but i wish i had your optimism that more education for the voters would result in turning back these kinds of things that directly impact the quality of our democracy. i can just tell by how much things have changed over the last 10 to 15 years with the caller on "washington journal," that people just repeat the talking points of whatever news network he listen to without seeming like they're listening to the guests who are put up or the analysis that we hear. i just don't think we have the capacity for it. i would like to challenge the "washington journal" to take a deep dive into what guests are suggesting is that may be monthly and set of just concentrating on the legislation

at hand or the headlines, navy we could take parts of the open phone lines -- maybe we could take parts of the open phone lines to do a deep dive into for instance gerrymandering and how it is impacting at the state levels. in could suggest some ways to do that -- and the guest could suggest some ways to do that on these important points that we need to pay attention to. host: we did some special programming about redistricting across the country and talked to reporters, political reporters on the grounds in those areas. go to c-span.org and you can find that program. david pepper, what do you think? is education does not going to work? guest: i think it can. some groups will have their strong views but there are some areas with issues like democracy

or outcomes in your own community. one of the points and try to make is the net result of these legislatures being essentially rigged for results, 99% are totally predictable, and tied with private interests who are seeking public access for their own benefit and not public benefit. the outcomes in the states like ohio are terrible. we have towns across the state that are just ghost towns. the public school system in ohio has fallen from the top six to mid-20's because they are taking the money and giving it to private companies who claim to be educating kids but they are not. you saw a democrat when the governorship of kansas because her predecessor had run public schools into the ground. there are issues that get beyond today's polarized politics. they are common issues people

care about but the current mode of politics in states like ohio are undermining. on the education piece, i agree with this caller and i appreciate what you said about redistricting. i don't think most people pay attention to their statehouse. the prior caller, busy running small businesses. the lack of attention on statehouses is a huge part of the problem. people have no idea who the state representative is. they don't know the power they have. people are waking up to gerrymandering. guess who knows about who these people are and what they can do, the private interest want things done on the statehouses for their benefit. i literally started this book in april, and i was writing like crazy because i am so concerned

that the biggest owner ability is the average person has no idea what is going on in the statehouses and by the time they figure it out it is too late and it is passed. most people know who their congressman is and maybe their governor. they know who they are and the local state rep is 20% at best and that local state rep has massive power over estate and they set the terms. i wrote the book to try to educate people on that reality and the reason i think it is so out of control is because people either don't see it or understand it or maybe we understand it collectively but we pay attention to it every once in a while when a law

passes. we all freak out for a day and then we moved back to washington and we never stop and say it, what is happening in the statehouses, why is it happening, and how do we stop it? that is what my book tries to do. i am an optimist by nature but i am not some naive optimist. unless people really get energized around it, it is a scary time. i would rather push than not. i think if you give up you lose, but i also want to say to the caller that i am optimistic only if people wake up and that is what i wrote the book. host: we will go to john, new york, republican. caller: i am a publican -- i am a republican. gerrymandering has been around for such a long time, it is

nothing new and has a lot of kirchen -- a lot of corruption. in new york state, someone said the only thing that can make congress look good is the new york state legislature. i do agree with what you are saying. it is rigged and it has been. it has often resulted in putting people in office that really shouldn't be there. but ultimately with our system of government, federalism, the people call the shots. in people, if they want to correct things and get better government, they have to be educated and aware of the issues and get organized and then vote. something bothered me and i would like to, regarding state legislatures. in the past election, the pennsylvania state legislature was assigned the task of

determining the voting qualifications and rights and things like that. from what i understand, a judge and the state attorney general superseded them and ruled on something that allowed extended voting -- and please correct me if i'm wrong -- extended voting hours, lack of chain of custody and things that were irregularities. my point is that i don't feel, at least at this is correct, that the pennsylvania state legislature acted appropriately and discharged their duties as prescribed by the constitution. if that had taken place, the election outcome possibly could have been different. the thing i would like to add and maybe you could comment on this -- recently in arizona we

had an audit which showed in fact joe biden did win by several hundred votes in excess of what the original vote count indicated. why didn't we have that immediately following the election of 2020. the supreme court weighed in on it and they dismissed it that president trump didn't have any standing. but trump was at the center of this argument here they dismissed it on procedural grounds. they didn't dismiss it on grounds of merit. host: can you wrap up? caller: thank you, greta, i am sorry i went on. i think state legislatures are best respected -- best reflected on the will of the people. they have to affect change, but one last thing, the recent

abortion law in texas, if the people that are pro-choice want to change the law, change the elected officials. host: david pepper, go ahead. guest: i appreciate what you said at the beginning. i don't know why anyone in this country, republican or democrat should be satisfied with the system were 99% of the elections for their statehouse are guaranteed outcome. that is not a democratic or republican problem, it is just a problem. you should expect that your elected officials has to stand before you every two or four years and actually worry about being reelected and legitimately need to seek your vote. the problem in our country right now, and i am glad he agrees,

that republicans and democrats should be unsatisfied with the system were almost every election is predetermined and you get the outcomes we are talking about now. . what we are seeing is when the districts are rigged so there is no worry among these politicians that they are ever going to lose, they don't reflect the will of the people at all. on issue after issue in statehouses, they reflect the opposite of the will and majority and that is one of the problems. i don't care if it is climate change, and most americans support roe v. wade and some commonsense gun reform. not all of them and not every reform, but 50% to 65% of

americans support most of the issues that these legislatures are literally working the opposite side of in only 30% or loss of average people and sometimes in these districts agree with the what the state legislatures are doing. but they are sealed off from the average person because of rigged districts. there is no accountability. one of the things you asked is is this coordinated? if you want to get bad stuff done in politics that you know is unpopular, you go to the statehouses, because they are the one place that can do it, because they can push some crazy law and no one can do anything about the fact that they did. i agree the system is rigged and i am glad jen is equally troubled. i don't agree is that of course the local levels should be tied to the people, but they are not anymore because they have been so gerrymandered that these folks are reflecting extremism.

i want to give you an example. i live not far from ulysses grant's home. the state represented 10 miles from his birthplace of ohio leaving the union, just leaving and nullifying its membership. that is not mainstream and that is not close to the people. he got elected for different times talking about that because the districts are immune from the voters at this point. that makes it dangerous because they are people who have the power to pass laws like that one that passed. host: donald, washington, d.c., independent. caller: thank you for taking my call. it appeared to me that people

are suspicious of the gerrymandering. i think your congressman could be guilty of the same thing. i was going to s the if he was open to the idea of having maybe the homeland security, the irs or the social security administration -- the elections. host: i am going to leave it there. david pepper? guest: let's just say, i heard it from him and the prior caller , the idea that both parties

gerrymandered. they actually do. the republican gives have far more seats they can gerrymandered. we are seeing in some states, in illinois you are seeing a democratic gerrymander. gerrymandering always has the same outcomes, it leads to poor government. i don't think we should give control of elections to the groups he mentioned, but i think the federal government needs to set some standards, because if you don't have some standards about how districts are drawn, what you are inevitably have is a race to the bottom. in ohio, people who are in office only because of gerrymandering are doing everything they can to gerrymander again and they are always going to do that because they have such a conflict paired we passed some changes to our constitution -- conflict. we passed some changes to our

constitutions that i think will reign it in, but unless our standards, you can't do extreme partisanship. you have to reflect the community, standards that can be litigated and protected. you will have a race to the bottom in all states because each side will think the other is doing it. republicans are doing it now more than democrats, but if you want to stop everyone from doing it, that is mine the bill that amy klobuchar and joe manchin and others support puts in place some protections that would put a halt to it everywhere. i don't think that is an excuse to do it right now. i think but the ohio legislature is doing is horrible and they shouldn't do it. it is cheating, basically. and we are going to stop it as best we can. but i also think the federal legislation could make sure that it doesn't happen anywhere and that would be in the end the most secure solution. host: diane, ohio, democratic

color. -- caller. caller: what can we do, other than voting, to help this crooked situation. i get so frustrated and i know 75% of our problem in ohio has got to do with the white supremacist groups taking over the state. a good example, the city my son lives in, the money that was supposed to be going to the police and fire department, they are giving them just a little bit. the rest is going to the city and the mayor and the city council is republican p what can we do -- republican. what can we do to help the state? guest: i hear that frustration

all the time, diane. i wrote the book to try and lay out what we can do. we have not a lot of time. i think we have to get moving very quickly. there is work for people who are elected to do what a lot of work for the rest of us paid what we cannot do is continue to not pay attention to statehouse races. know who your state rep is. spread the word. the worst thing we do is not contest these races, so these people literally get reappointed without even a conversation. we need candidates running in every state house district. another thing that has happened in ohio, we have seen horrible suppression of voting in ohio. one of the worst ways has been

purging of voters from the rolls. yes, some have passed away in some have moved, but a whole lot hadn't. some were even purged in error. one thing every citizen can do beyond registering themselves and knowing here state rep is, take part in registration efforts. we need to always register voters. if we wait for candidates to register voters, we have waited far too late and they are not going to register enough of them. get involved in any just ration efforts in your community. i go through 30 concrete steps in my book that people can do to get involved, because i hear the frustration. she just captured it perfectly, i don't want to wait. history is clear, if one side is fighting against democracy with

all its might and the side that cares about democracy runs out of gas, loses energy, the other side is going to win. that's why we got stuck with jim crow. i hope that whether it is my book or other ways to get involved, figure out five or 10 or 15 ways you can get involved to protect your democracy. you are seeing it right now, school board races, democracy happens every year. everyone who votes this year is likely to vote next year so get involved in your school board races and city council races. never use the term off your election. it is the year we decided to educate your children and also is an important part of building towards democracy. one of my role models is stacey abrams. she never stops fighting for democracy, every single year,

big ways, small ways, running for governor and registering voters. host: david pepper, the impact of decreased journalism on the state level, reporters in the state capitals covering what's happening in their state legislatures? what has been the impact? guest: it is a huge problem. the local journalism and state-level journalism has been hit incredibly hard economically . we all know that. and it is really -- it's really part of the power keg of state houses more activity happens there and the less journalism happens there because of a cutback in statehouse bureaus and local papers, the more happens in the dark. the more it is in the dark and people are getting away with it and keep going and not to washington where there are a lot of people covering everything. the average number from the data

i found was that three statehouse reporters per state capital. that is a nightmare. it means there is not enough. it means the ones who are there, and ohio is a wonderful statehouse, we have more than three and they work hard. they tell me they are exhausted trying to keep up with all the stuff that's happening, corruption, crazy laws, voter suppression, gerrymandering. even a robust statehouse core like we have here is exhausted trying to get out to a population who is not paying attention as much to statehouses. it has people clicking because everything is about clicks on social media. it is a really big problem and really hurting the ability -- and the strategy on the other side, and you ask is it

coordinated and yes it is coordinated, but the strategy is to get semi things the statehouses that even if half of them fail, half of them succeed. if you don't have enough statehouse coverage it is more successful. normally the reason something doesn't work and it statehouse is because it becomes a scandal. if you don't know, it ends up going through. it is not just statehouse bureaus that are smaller. it is small town newspapers. those of the papers that normally would cover, statehouse members so and so did x or y or z. it is the only place where a local community person who wants to know what they're statehouse member, who they are and what they do, would probably read about them. those papers are also either dying or getting brought up into broader conglomerates. so the focus on that individual

officeholder is disappearing which means no accountability, which is the heart of the problem. it is a huge issue. host: troy, republican, dallas. caller: i am a lifetime republican. i didn't vote for trump in the last election, just out of my feelings of responsibility. we have a general lack of responsibility for our actions. the ideology of victimhood. nobody takes responsibility for their own actions. it is always someone else's response ability. there are many times young men, the judge tells you know what caused that, you are responsible. i watched the news and there was

a woman who says, six months went by and i didn't know i was pregnant. but he said you know what caused it. we are at each other's throats for no reason. host: and get have david pepper jump in. -- i am going to have david pepper jump in. guest: let me talk about the abortion law. if you care about the constitutional form of government that we have, whatever your view on choice or reproductive rights, that has to trouble you, because it is not just a law that is flying in the face of roe v. wade, which is constitutional law in the country, but the law that says you get to personally sue as a

private citizen people in texas, if you don't like that they did something that is their right to do under the u.s. constitution. the whole purpose of that was to come up with a system where people cannot support their own rights as defined by the supreme court in their own state, but will be sued and the lawsuits that will come stop the behavior . that is an attack on our basic system of law & order in the country. it is much bigger than the substance of abortion. it is an attack on people who have rights by the supreme court. normally the way this would happen is a legislature will write a law that would violate the roe v. wade. before it went into effect, someone would sue and it would

stop and at least be litigated. this is actually saying, we come up with a way or trying to where you don't get to sue to stop a law and the threat of litigation. the activity from happening. that is an attack on our constitution right there and it is trying to say to people, you don't even have a way to assert your rights in court anymore. that is something that putin would be impressed by. that is something in hungry that they would say, that is a cute trick. that is not part of a system of america that respects constitutional rights. that is why it is so stunning, trying to eliminate people being able to go to court. you should have a right to go to court and make your case and not have it become something that has been turned into vigilantism

to stop you from asserting your constitutional rights. i put that lot into the category of being yes it is about abortion, but it is also another way they are attacking democracy itself, trying to undermine constitutional rights of citizens to this mechanism they have come up with. it is terrible. and the court last week is letting it play out in a way that is exactly what they wanted to accomplish. host: chuck in michigan, independent. caller: my comment is, i lived in front in hills michigan and in my disk -- in farmington hills, michigan, and in my district it is all union and we don't have a prayer of electing anyone in the statehouse, and that is the only comment i have. as an independent, we don't have a prayer. thank you.

guest: it is important point. don't mistake what i'm saying that there aren't in many places in the country, communities that have strong views that are one-sided and you know who they are going to elect. that will happen even if you don't have gerrymandering. i am from cincinnati, and is a pretty democratic area. there are more democrats in the statehouse. that is normal or that is democracy. what has happened with gerrymandering is 25 state seats on one side and 25 on another, and entire super majority in the ohio statehouse who never worry about elections. they are almost all gerrymandered. they are guaranteed their majority by double-digit election wins.

that is what is extreme and unhealthy. what they need is a caucus, 60 plus people. not one of them is worried about reelection. so there may be more democrats or republicans in districts, others are frustrated that is democracy. all of them are gerrymandered. after 2011, i could have predicted for you 99% of the results of the statehouse of ohio for 10 years. every election is predetermined. that is what is so unhealthy that there is an entire generation of these folks in charge and in power, and they never have actually been through a real election. the consequences of that entire generation being in power is i think what we are not coming to terms with as a country, how devastating it is to a functioning democracy.

host: what are the states to watch? guest: i wish they were on two hands. right now, ohio is one of -- ohio, wisconsin, texas, in the first round of gerrymandering right now and it has been really ugly. in the coming months, you will see it across the country, dozens of states that have been living off of a gerrymandered system for 10 years, suppressing boats across the way. -- suppressing votes along the way. if you're interested, the blank center does a really good -- the -- center it does a really good job. the gerrymandering process. there is another place called democracy docket, a website with

good updates on all of the states. my book tries to cover it. it is not just a couple, but it is enough that it has basically taken over the country, this antidemocracy assault. i hate to say it, but in the last couple of months -- biden one the election and some of the callers like it and some don't. they are still plugging away on these democratic measures every day and it is happening very quickly. my worry is people who don't fight back hard and they will settle in. host: the book “laboratories of autocracy: a wake-up call from behind the lines.” david pepper, former ohio democratic party chair, we appreciate it. we are going to take a break, we

will turn to the question, your confidence in president biden's handling of the economy. there are the numbers on your screen. we will be right back. ♪ >> weekends bring you the best in nonfiction books on book tv, coverage of the 33rd annual festival of books from nashville. virtual event features the book "jesus and john wayne." former tennessee governor discussing his book "faithful presence." democrat california congressman adam schiff talks about his book "midnight in washington," which recounts his role in president trump first impeachment trial. he is interviewed by correspondent lisa mascaro.

watch online anytime at book tv.org. >> get an early start on holiday gifts at c-span's shop.org. shop now through wednesday and save up to 15% on the latest collection of apparels, books, home to core. -- home decor. shop now at c-span.org. >> "washington journal" continues. host: are you confident in president biden's handling of the economy? that is our next conversation on "washington journal." the cnbc poll they did in mid-october found that 54% of

those polled disapproved of president biden on the economy and 40% approve in the same poll also found 46% of the economy will get worse in the year ahead, 47% believe there will be a recession in the next year, and 79% say the economy is just fair or poor. the university of michigan conducted a consumer survey and found 48% think the government is doing a poor job on the economy, 33% said a fair job, while 19 percent that they were doing a good job. do you agree or disagree with that pulling? listen to kevin mccarthy criticizing the president and his economic policy, saying he is to blame for inflation. here he is. >> 61% of americans know what is

causing inflation, the democrats and the policies. 40% of the democrats believed that their own policies are creating this inflation. whether it is 4.5 trillion or one trillion, the democrats' proposal will harm the labor shortage and will do anything to stop the border crisis that we have today and will set our country back for decades paid we cannot afford -- decades. we cannot afford this. americans are finding life today much harder than they did a short year ago. you go to the grocery store it is going to cost you $200 more over the course of a year. you are being warned that you have to shop for christmas now if you want to be able to get anything. every time you go to fill up your gas, it is 42% higher. with winter, you are being told

to brace for heating costs that will cost more. can you imagine living that tomorrow will not be better than today? it will cost you more? economic conditions are expected to continue to deteriorate. when confronted with the reality, democrats want americans to lower expectations. you heard me many times before compare the biden administration to jimmy carter. if you look back to 1979 and today, there are very eerie similarities. at a time when jimmy carter had americans being held hostage in the middle east, joe biden created the exact same problems for americans. you have inflation, the same challenge we had with jimmy carter. they both want to get america out of their problems they could

become energy independent. host: california republican kevin mccarthy. take a look at this pull had -- poll headline, present by losing support of independence over economy and immigration. they quote a poster in the story saying, in 2020 pulling, president biden one independent voters by a 51% margin. they show for trump -- former president trump winning, a massive shift in the demographic set helped biden to victory. john in california, republican, how is the president doing on the economy? caller: good morning. i think the president is doing a really bad job on the economy, because he is not paying attention to the indicators like inflation or jobs or anything

like that. my comment would be is that right now i am really angry and i am angry because this president is betraying the people who put him in office, i am talking about the black community who voted for them in total, and look what they got. they got a border and out the wagers being tested by illegal immigrants, we are going to bring wages down. they voted against themselves. it was a racist vote. i am upset when biden said you aren't black enough to get other people to vote for him, and it turned out voted against themselves. host: how is this personally impacting you, the economy during the first year of president biden? caller: the first thing is i

have lost confidence in our government, in our economy. we have people in government who do not believe in capitalism. i worked my way up and i worked hard, and to see this guy come in and just treat money like it is toilet paper. give it out and print it and he just has no clue as to how hard people earn their money and it is a total betrayal, this economy. i have lost all economy -- confidence in joe biden. host: nate, tallahassee, florida . what is the economy like in tallahassee? caller: i am a black american

and i voted for biden as an independent. i feel very offended by the young man who just spoke, because he apparently is calling black people racist because they acted in their own self interest. but i would like to say, and the reason i called, is because when mr. trump was president, the democrats did the exact same thing to mr. trump as the republicans are to mr. biden. trump came in and the unplanned rate was 4.7%. he had a great economy coming out of the obama administration. at the same time, mr. biden comes in and things are looking bad coming out of the trump administration, and we are blaming him for it. both of them take credit for what didn't happen.

what is happening in the economy right now has nothing to do with mr. biden. the supply shock we are going through is not his fault, but we are blaming him for it because we take political positions and the democrats do the same thing when a republican gets in p can't bring this country together to find out real issues -- gets in. we can't bring this country together to find out any real issues. the only policy mr. trump implicated -- implement it was the tax cut. we are looking at the previous effect of the previous administration and blame the current administration, and we will do it to the next president . that is the way we operate in this country, and that is unfortunate because we cannot come up with a model. the economy is going to structural changes. host: i want to show you and

others with the president said, because when he is asked about jobs and people returning to work at the cnn town hall, the first thing he says is that most jobs have been created ever historically under him. you are saying he hasn't done anything but he is taking credit. >> is anything you can do to either encourage people to go back to work or make jobs more attractive that they want to go back to work? pres. biden: first of all, we've created more jobs in the first eight months of my administration than any president in american but the problem for people not going back to work is twofold. number one, they're reluctant to go to work because they're afraid of covid, many of them. they don't want to go back and be exposed to either customers because they're not required to wear masks or not required to have shots or they don't want to

go back because they're not sure the people waiting on them at the table or the people coming up in the food market. so a lot of it has to do with covid, number one. number two, and that's why, you know, we were able to go from when i first got elected, there were only two million people had covid shots in the united states of america, the vaccine. now we have 190 million because i went out and bought everything i could do, everything i could buy in sight and it worked. here's the deal, the second thing that's happened, anderson, is people are now using this as an opportunity to say wait a minute, do i want to go back to that hads 7 an hour job? i won't name the particular restaurant chain but they found out when they couldn't hire anybody, when they found out, they started paying $20 an hour, everybody wanted to go back to work. not a joke. so what you see is wages are actually up for those who are

working because for the first time in a long time employees are able to bargain. you're the boss. you want me to work for you, what are you going to pay me? host: i want to go back to nate in tallahassee, are you saying the president shouldn't be taking credit for the jobs? caller: no, i'm not saying that. what i think he did is he qualified and said the first eight months. however, i think he's doing the same thing trump does, he pumps. he makes himself look better than he really is. the economy -- actually, i think the economy is pretty sound but i think, unfortunately, there are some structural changes we're going through in the economy and that's exactly what's going on and he has to work his way through it. maybe the next year from now the economy may be robust. but i think right now the economy right now is pretty sound. host: ok. i'm going to go to scott who is in ithaca, new york, democratic caller. thanks for hanging on the line. go ahead. caller: good morning. i've been on a democratic

committee for 14 years at least locally and i see it a little differently, a little bit similar to the last caller in that we get terrible candidates on each side and then we're forced to choose as the voters, this goes back to your original guests from the local level all the way on up to the presidency and all of a sudden we have to choose between, you know, trump and biden? and it's like there are so many other people that could have run that were much better candidates. host: scott, let's talk about the economy, though. caller: the economy requires somebody to be a really good problem solver and i think a lot of people even on the democratic side have resolved that they just don't think that biden -- president biden is a supremely good problem solver. i'll give you one small example and it has to do with the truck driver shortage. you have to approach it -- he's

correct when he says if you throw out better salaries for people, there's more people that are going to be attracted to come back to work. with truck drivers, it's more complex. you have a young population supposed to fill the population of truck drivers, and the problem is you've got more younger people that don't want to be on the road a week or two or three weeks or whatever at a time. they just don't want that lifestyle. you have to find some innovative way to attract more people to back fill the people quitting those jobs and he hasn't done it. he hasn't come up to task on doing that. i think what we lack at that level is people that aren't just multigazillion airs like trump and maybe they were background successful or family members were successful in biden's family, we need small, small business people to be more involved in local and federal government and be better problem

solvers to help fix the economy, and that's one of the biggest problems with the supply chain. host: let me talk about the truckers. the transportation secretary pete buttigieg is relaxing trucker regulations under review in supply chain crisis. and it says that as a supply chain crisis grips the nation the inflation surges and the white house is mulling regulations for truck drivers. the transportation secretary tells fox business the allowable hours for drivers are under review to get more truckers on the road but notice safety issues are part of that review as well. that story on fox business news, foxbusiness.com if you're interested. elizabeth, democratic caller. you have a grade for this president and how he's handling the economy? caller: well, i do agree with several of the points from the caller in ithaca and tallahassee that the president can only control so much of the economy.

of course he is to blame because he's in office. but i'd like to say if people are dissatisfied there are a few things to do to help our economy. number one, they can get a covid vaccination. that will help us in our schools, in the workplace, and for the general economy to move forward. that's just basic science. and then the other thing they can do is encourage their members of congress, republican or democrat, to pass the infrastructure bills and the reconciliation bills. both bills contain things that apparently the vast majority of americans want and need. they need better transportation. they need help with daycare or childcare and elder care and many things like that that also, by the way, will help the economy. and number one, it's going to

help us. we all can unite on environmental and climate change mitigation and some of the measures included in the bills will help with jobs and the economy. host: elizabeth, are you as a democrat onboard with lowering the overall price tag? caller: i find that very upsetting. it may have to happen. we may have to do it piecemeal. if you look at the budget for the pentagon, $700 billion in two years we will have surpassed or come close to the amount that they are proposing. this is over 10 years. it's not that much money relatively speaking per year if you look at the 10-year amount that they want to allot. i would caution against whittling everything down to the point that really won't make a difference for any one item that is listed in that legislation.

specifically, the last man who called from ithaca who was mentioning the truck driver problem, i'd like to see biden take much stronger action or his administration in paying for people to go to nursing school, medical school, perhaps for trucking school and training and certain other professions that we desperately need, and that can cost a lot for people just to pay for on their own. host: that is typically the community college level. take a listen to "the new york times" reporting. they say this reconciliation package, the so-called human infrastructure proposal by this president is likely to be around $2 trillion. and they write, the bill is certain to be far smaller than what he originally proposed and far less ambitious than what he and many allies had hoped. it won't make him the one who finally secured free community college for everyone. seniors won't get free dental,

hearing and vision coverage for medicare and there won't be a new system of penalties for the worst polluters. those are the things that look like they're falling off of this overall package that they're on the chopping blocks. let's hear from lynn in edgertown, wisconsin, democratic caller. hi, lynn. caller: hello, greta. host: good morning. caller: there's a lot on the table. your previous guest nailed a lot of things. on the biden economy, everything that's on biden's agenda has been a part of the democratic surveys that i've participated in and it pretty much nails it down. there's a lot on the table. just in the matter of the trucking, they could take the national guard and say somehow

recruit the national guard instead of maybe two weeks up at fort mccoy doing their thing that these guys that are all truck drivers that maybe somehow they can get into the program to get those containers off the ships and transport it out of the country to the rest of the country. are we still there? host: you broke up for a second. you were saying get them into ports, get the goods unloaded. # # #. caller: my significant other is trying to get ahold of me. host: you better take that call, lynn. andy in glenwood springs, colorado, republican. caller: hi, everybody. host: good morning. caller: i want to comment about the trucker thing. and the economy. so many people -- presidents get too much blame or credit for the

economy and the economy is hundreds of millions of people and a lot of moving parts. i never made an economic decision based on who the president is. in regards to the truckers, who would go into trucking when we've been told by elon musk, tim cook, jeff bezos for years that trucking is going to become autonomous, why would anyone go into that career when we've been told it's going to not exist in five, 10 years? that's the private sector has more to do with the economy than the president does. thank you. host: davis in cincinnati. what are your thoughts on the president and his handling of the economy? caller: yes, i have lots of thoughts about it but the callers have really addressed quite a few and have been discussed. i was on hold before and accidentally dropped. so i just want to approach this

a little differently and talk about their question, handling the economy. others have said something about this, the idea that the president handles the economy or runs the economy and the government creates all these jobs in the private sector and all these myths. but handling the economy. we have a $22 trillion economy. think of it as a ship. people seem to being the president is up there steering the ship. i just think it's a misconception or even a myth. i could be president and so many jobs would be created because we're coming out of the covid recovery. and unemployment benefits drop the extra benefits so people are coming back in. i think you do a disservice by oversimplifying and making it sound like the president runs or handles the economy or that the cabinet or executive branching.

that's just my thoughts and wanted to get that out there. thank you very much. host: all right, davis. let's hear from karen who is in leesburg, virginia. hi, karen. caller: about -- good morning. i guess my comment is i think the question should be is how is president biden handling the economy if covid wasn't at the center of the country? because if covid wasn't here, we wouldn't have a supply chain issue or a labor issue. we wouldn't have an education issue. so i think it is unfair to ask how he's handling the economy considering we're in the middle of a pandemic. i think that is unfair. regarding trucking and some of the other things happening now, you know, we've got to get time to get through it. biden has been in office eight months. i don't think it's a fair question to ask about confidence because we're in the middle of so much stuff.

i would like to see this question a year from now. i would like to see this question about once we get on the other side of covid. then can you have an intelligent conversation about the confidence of him. right now i see him trying and using every tool he can, including trying to bring congress together with wrestling with the filibuster or voting rights or a whole bunch of things. it's not a fair question to ask eight months in because you'll get disenginous answers and that's not fair right now. host: the previous caller talking about what does the president have control over, the argument being made by president biden at the cnn town hall when it comes to gas prices. take a listen. [. [video clip] president biden: gas prices relate to something that goes beyond the cost of gas, $3 a gallon when it was in a dollar plus digits.

and that's because of a supply being withheld by opec. so there's a lot of negotiation that is a lot of middle eastern folks want to talk to me about gas production. there's things we can do in the meantime. anderson: you have a idea when gas prices will come down? president biden: we'll see gas prices go down going into next year in 2022. i don't see anything that's going to happen in the meantime that's going to significantly reduce gas prices. for example, for natural gas to heat your homes as winter is coming, there's a lot of -- what people don't realize we put in billions of what we call lie heap. lie heap is the provision whereby you're able to get funding from the federal

government based on the need to heat your home and it's subsidized in a significant way and there's billions of dollars we have passed in the legislation i got passed in march of this year. because we anticipated that would be a problem as well. but the answer ultimately is, ultimately, meaning the next three or four years, is investing in renewable energy. host: president biden from the town hall that took place thursday. what do you think, a republican, john? caller: being a republican i don't think biden is doing a great job. we'll see much higher gasoline prices in california. we're used to near $5 a gallon. i don't think the rest of the people across the country are more inclined to $3.50 a gallon. all the rise in gasoline prices

are exclusively biden's fault. stopping the pipeline, war on fossil fuels. the dilemma is you can stop all the fossil fuels in the united states and they're going to get burned in india and china and get burned in vietnam and all these other countries so he's not going to change the climate by making us pay $7 or $8 or $10 or $12 for gasoline. that's silly. tax the rich. well, i never got a job from a poor man. he's going to drive jobs out of the country. he already has. the backup on the porch is obvious. we have too much of our products we need manufactured out of the country. and i know that's a result of

cheaper labor and like that but to raise taxes on the people that are producing and distributed among people that aren't producing is a bad idea. and it will not sustain to add to the debt, to add to inflation, and it's bernie sanders socialist agenda and that was rejected pretty wholeheartedly and then joe biden picks it up. host: john, a republican in california. we'll take a break. when we come back, we're going to switch gears and talk to "newsweek" deputy opinion editor who discusses her new book, "bad news, how woke media is undermining democracy."

>> tonight on q&a, retired california superior court judge looks at our legal system and offers suggestions how to approve it. her latest book "her honor" addresses racial bias and jury selections and police reform. >> in urban settings, not exclusively, police officers aren't interested in the fact that you didn't have your traffic signal on. they're not interested in it. what they want to do is have a reason to stop you to then engage you in conversation and then maybe to search your car. the u.s. supreme court said to police officers, that's just fine. you can make these kinds of stops and it doesn't matter that that's not really what you're interested in. and i think what has to change

is the very nature of policing has to change and we need to take that role out of policing. police should be used to investigate crimes and certainly to help prevent crimes but i think traffic stops are a major problem because they disproportionately focus on people's color. >> tonight on q&a. you can listen to our podcasts on the new c-span now app. # # ♪

>> "washington journal" continues. host: with us is "newsweek" opinion editor, author of the new book "bad news, how woke media is undermining politics." i want to begin in the opening scene, 2018 on cnn's don lemon show, hosting a panel discussion. tell us why you started your book with what happened on his show that night? host: absolutely. first of all, greta, thank you so much for having me. i have to tell you what your audience already knows is that you sit here and do god's work, bringing republicans and democrats into the same space and treating everybody with respect. this is a vanishing art in journalism and so crucial so thank so you much for all that work that you do. i open my book with a scene in

which don lemon and a number of his guests are talking about how all of president trump's voters were racist and the reason i opened with that is because it provided for me a primal scene i wanted to explore in my book which is how people who were so rich, who had won on so many of the metrics of american society in found a way to sort of legal size centering at the losers. president trump famously won the vast majority of people without a college education in america. people who are downwardly mobile and the disappearing middle class and especially the working class, and i argue in my book that people like don lemon who make millions of dollars have found a way to sort of couch the abandon. of the working class as social justice by smearing them all as racist.

and the thesis of my book is that america does not have a racial divide. we do not even really have a political divide so much as we have a class chasm that the media, especially the liberal media, is using race in order to hide in a way that perpetuates inequality and i make this argument from the left. i'm very much of the left and why it's so important we speak up about it. host: how do you define wokeness, what are you saying there? guest: thank so you much for that question. it's very important people understand this. wokeness is not when you care about police brutality. i care deeply about that. that's one of the number one issues we as americans should care about. it's not care building education reform and the children who have been left behind, the poor children of color. that's not what it is to be woke. that's what it is to be moral. to be woke is to take on the mandate that everything is either racist or anti-racist,

meaning every minute you're not spending inserting race into every conversation, you're being racist. that to me is wokeness. it's a moral panic around race that does a really good job of hiding the incomeing equality into this nation by distracting us. host: is this just about don lemon? guest: no, no, i argue it's really -- over the course of the 20th century journalism overwent a status revolution. don lemon is at the pinnacle of the status revolution. a hundred years ago the majority of journalists didn't even have a college degree. journalism used to be a blue-collar trade and was something you learned on the job. you can't teach somebody how to be a good listener, you know this. it's something you learn through doing it. what happened over the course of the 20th century, journalists, along with many highly educated liberals in america underwent the status revolution where they

became part of the american elite, part of the top 10% and local journalism and newspapers collapsing under the pressure of digital media, there were fewer and fewer journalists and those who managed to hang on were increasingly affluent or coming from affluence. host: who or what is behind the conversation, the wokeness conversation and who benefits from it? guest: such a great question. obviously i talk a lot about journalists but journalists would not have the freedom to do this if their corporations weren't behind them. it used to be you had a lot of towns in america, one paper towns and you had republicans and democrats living side by side. the owner of a newspaper or publisher and owner after corporation, they'd want the biggest readership possible so it was sort of in their financial interest to keep the news reporting very middle of the road, right? because if they leaned into

either side they would be sacrificing readers. the problem with digital media is success is measured in terms of engagement. more your story gets online engagement, the more you're succeeding and the more you can charge per ads and the more you can make as a company. we all know the most engaged people online are the most extreme. journalists are becoming more and more affluent and more and more drawn to the ways universities talk about race and identity because they're all university educated and brought it to the corporations where they work but corporate media is leading into this extremism because it's very flattering to their highly educated and even elite readers. everybody is sort of pulling in the same direction of woke media on the left and that's really sacrificed any kind of attention to the staggering income and equality in america. this class chasm which resulted in what you see a lot,

journalists who are affluent smearing at the working class and smearing at the people who most need thousand speak on them in the working class and i mean working classes of all races. host: who is the audience and what do they get out of the conversation? guest: i argue a moral debate around race distracts from the perpetration of the elite. it's not really now on the right where you have people endorsing policies that leave the vast majority of americans behind. you know, as the middle class has really disappeared in this country you had the sort of great squeeze where some people have been squeezed to the top 10% including the highly educated and i argue in my book that even though they see themselves on the side of social justice, they think what they're doing is bending the moral arc

of history through this talk about race. i argue it's very much in the interest of the amare create ickes lead to talk about race because they don't have to talk about class and would really threaten their status and position in american society today. host: what is the income inequality like in this country and who is not getting heard? and what does this person or these people look like? guest: i really feel we have deep platforms of the working class of all races, working class americans tend to have more conservative view and values. a lot of the views have become not only mainstream but definitive on the left are kind of the ideas that are cooked up in the university and are very counterintuitive of working class people, irrespective of who they feet for. it's those people with conserve

pitch values and often support more liberal policy that have been silenced and removed from the table because the right wing media, they don't smear their values, it's true but they don't represent their trickle down economy that's not in the interest of americans but working class americans want their good jobs that give them dignity and gives them a sense of being active participants in building up this nation and we've really taken that away from them on both sides, greta. host: the working class in this country, what is important to them? not -- is it a political party or is it something else? what do they want to be listening to? guest: what i'm seeing is an abandonment of the working class on both sides because you have on the right these trickle down

economics, the idea of free markets, the stuff that really has led to offshoring of jobs, manufacturing jobs and globalization but on the left what you have increasingly today are ideas like universal basic income. this idea that you sort of pay people off because their jobs are disappearing and that's not a pro working class agenda either. what the working class wants is for their values to be respected. they often are socially conservative but also, they want to see themselves as active participants in building up this nation. that means good jobs that are part of the fabric of society. and to me it seems like the media and politicians on both sides are increasingly catering exclusively to the top 10% of either side. you have a party representing the highly educated top 10% of liberals and a party representing the rich republican side and nobody representing the other 90%. and i argue the media really has

been a partner in this abandonment and today they're using these sort of woke ideas, a moral panic around race in order to close this abandonment as though it were social justice. host: where are the working class then getting their news? guest: it's a great question. 54% of americans don't get any news at all, they're completely disengaged because none of this is speaking to them. fox news pretty much has a lock on working class viewers and it's funny because cnn really can actively alienate these viewers the last 10 years when this moral panic began so in 2012cnn and fox, only 25% of their viewers had a college degree, fast forward to 2019 and now cnn has 50% of their viewers have a college degree, meaning that 25%, they realize, they understood this is no longer for me.

and i argue they used the language of the university to signal to working class americans we're not for you anymore and that abandonment at the symbolic level in the media has really been an engine for the disempowerment of working class americans economically as well. host: we want to get our viewers involved in this conversation. republicans dial 202-748-8001 and democrats 202-748-8000 and independents. 202-748-8003. include your first name, city and state. let me go to terry who is up first. welcome to the conversation. go ahead. caller: good morning to you and your guest. i'm so happy to listen to you. i wish we had 10,000 more of you out there speaking up. and also i'd like to thank you for using the word "equality"

instead of equity because that's the proper word. i want to ask you, did you know anything about on capitol hill one of the bills they're trying to pass that there's millions of dollars they want to give to the media, is that to prop them up, to keep them from going out of business because they lost so many viewers? i hope you can understand my words. i was born tongue-tied. so if you can comment on that a little bit. guest: i'm not familiar with that bill. thank so you much for your kind words. i really appreciate it. what i can tell you is unfortunately woke media is very successful economically even though they are sacrificing viewers. that's the problem, as i write in my book, journalism started in america. you have this amazing explosion of populist journalism in the 19th century and you had joseph pulitzer, benjamin day and fathers of the penny press and

showed up on the scene and realized all the media was for the elites and said wait a minute, there's so many poor and working class people and literate and have nothing to read and created these newspapers for and by the working class and poor and got so rich because there were so many working class and poor people their circulation was astronomical. what happened was "the new york times" showed up and said i can't compete with them in numbers but what i can do is the opposite. what i'm going to do is i'm going to create a newspaper that's exclusive in nature that signals to its readers through the language and vocabulary and the topics that were not for the poor and working class and then i can charge advertisers more because i can tell them only rich people read my newspaper so their ads will be worth more and unfortunately, that's really the model we're seeing now more and more is that everyone seems to be trying to get that same highly educated, affluent,

liberal leadership and all the outlets are competing for the same readership, abandoning everybody else but has turned out to be rather successful for them. for example, "the new york times" is doing very well financially. so i'm not sure about that specific bill but i don't know that the people leaning into this. it is rewarding from a financial point of view and why we're seeing it. host: talk about the history of income inequality in journalism. was there a time when there was income equality and you had journalism that spoke to the broader audience? guest: you know, we often talk about the postwar period, those 20 years as being this sort of utopian time in america and we were still struggling with the vestiges of state sponsored segregation and wasn't

graduation for everybody. but for the upward class there was so much for a fordability. and doesn't have what we have today a huge chasm. it used to be middle class americans and low class americans were living side by side and not much to distinguish them from more affluent americans and journalists would live in those neighborhoods as well and journalists would be making maybe a little more than their neighbor the cop where as opposed today they're making a little less than their neighbor the lawyer, right? i think at that time, yes, the media that we think about as catering to the great american middle, people talk about walter cronkite and this age of where republicans and democrats can get their news from the same place but what i argue in the book that is really more about class as well. people of different classes could get their news from the same place because they were living lives that were comparable and what happened was that chasm that opened up the last 40 years, you're seeing the

left and the democrats as well increasingly leaning into the college educated and where you're seeing the vision open up in terms of class. host: steven, a democratic caller from illinois. go ahead. caller: fox went to the supreme court to establish they have no obligation to the truth. so woke or not they can print broadcast lives and somehow it's about racism is the problem, i don't get it. guest: thank so you much for that question. it's a really good question and really important question. so i'm an opinionator so means i have one screen in front of me, cnn and one screen in front of me that's fox all day. i don't think you can compare

fox to o.a.n. the day time shows are very rigorous in terms of fact checking. of course they are partisan. they focus on the stories they want to focus on like the liberal media focus on the stories they want to focus on. what i would argue is that what you're seeing on fox is the difference between fox and cnn and this is from someone that watches both of them all day, the real difference is one of class. fox is picturing a viewer that does not have a college education and everything it does from the aesthetics of the show to the choices of the topics covered is going to be focused on that viewer, and one of the things it means is they will cover crime because working class people, their lives often are impacted by crime, whereas you won't see crime covered at cnn or "the new york times." that's sort of why i take your point but i think something like that is an example of where woke

media that refuses to cover issues that are important to the working class and that has a sort of racial moral winery in place where people, we can't cover crime if the crime was committed by a person of color which is essentially what is happening at "the new york times" and cnn. to me that will result in death and has resulted in death. we're in the midst of a murder spike and it's not getting any attention because the wrong people are being killed, it's people of color and apparently the liberal media does not care about them. to me i take your point there are problems on the right for sure, chief among them the abandonment of the working class. when they have a lock on the audience, they could do so much with that. but i have to say i think the consequences of the moral panic around race has been to further

push away the solutions to racism. i think the stakes are extremely high and not that they're talking about race. i hear the questions why do you care they're obsessing about it? i care about it because the obsession allowed them to filibuster police reform. we need police reform but it has been fill gusterred -- filibustered unthe guise of social justice. and it really harms the most vulnerable communities of color as well. and as a person on the left, i'm not ok with that. i just don't accept that's how it should be. host: what about how the stories are covered by fox news and appealing to the working clasps emotions rather than the problems and the intellect? what are your thoughts on that?

guest: i'm actually curious to know what you think, do you think there's less of that on msnbc, there's less peopling to emotion? i'll give you another example. "the new york times," a sociologist counted the number of times president trump's name was used in "new york times" in 2017 and it was 97,000 times. ok, maybe that's just how often you talk about a president, right? but president obama's name in his correct year in office was only mentioned 37,000 times. so to me it's -- we actually know why he mentioned his name so many times because of a thing called project feels. this is not fox news but "the new york times." they have a advertising project called project feels. they started out by asking a group of highly educated affluent millenials to rate how stories made them feel. they would say how does the

story make you feel, does it make you feel angry or sad or happy and how much did is it make you feel? they found the more emotional a person was, the longer they stayed on the page. we can measure this. we know how long people stay on the page. the more they felt the longer they stayed on a page and more likely they clicked on an ad. then they created a machine learning algorithm that could predict how an article was going to make a reader feel and took it to advertisers and said it was ongoing. hi, armani, how do you want your "new york times" viewer to feel when they encounter your ad? it increases the traffic flow to the ad and the click volumes and click rates. i want to tie it back to why president trump's name appeared 97,000 times in the "new york times" in 2017, which is the equivalent of twice every single article. because it makes affluent

liberals feel things and makes them very emotional. affluent rib halls have a higher vocabulary because they have graduate degrees as well and it's about the argument because we've moved into racism and should make us emotional. it's terrible and we should be focused on it. but the way it is 6 is to produce emotions in affluent readers and produces revenue. host: i should have phrased the question differently. i was following up on the viewer connecting fox news to the works class but your answer that this is all news media is appealing to people's emotions. that's how you sell news is your argument? guest: absolutely. that's why we don't see coverage of crime because it makes liberals very uncomfortable to have abandoned poor people of

color. that's not something armani wants to run an ad next to. host: in milford, ohio, you're next. guest: my wife and i are sitting here watching c-span this morning and first thing i just want to say is we're going to get this book. we're very impressed with what you're saying. and the reason is it's really resonating with something that we feel. we're older now in our 60's and i guess you could say we're in the probably top 20% and we read mostly read, we don't watch cnn or fox but do read "the new york times," "washington post," get the new yorker, as lance said we read online and my wife has a site called all side. i have lots of questions and know i can't ask them all but i want to come back to your main theme. the moral panic theme.

that is the moral panic being experienced by the amare create ickes lead and was a cover to distract from the inequality and the true class economic issue which a big important issue for us but the great gaps in income and wealth. what is the motivation in your mind, is it out of built or why are they having this moral panic and want to put it all on racism? the second one i'll get out quickly is probably heard or know about "the new york times" where i guess it was a year and a half ago, i can't remember his name but head of the newsroom and they were having a big meeting and somebody recorded him in that meeting and the gist of that was they were going to pivot away from so much coverage

of trump and the russiangate conspiracy and focus on racism and wokism. are you familiar with that i'm talking about? guest: yes, i am. caller: the other thing is, you can address all three of these. i get this from avol levine and talk of his book "time to build." but the media, they have their platform and they're like a brand and have their twitter accounts and say it's detracting from their professionalism and think it's ridiculous they look at how many twitter followers they have. they're promoting themselves and used to be ok, you have "the new york times" and might be promoting itself but now have the so-called journalist reporters becoming these celebrity twitter people. host: brooks, i'm going to jump

in because i want her to take all three points. go ahead. guest: brooks, thanks so much. so the first point, why they're doing this, i'm so glad you brought up uvol levine because i heard him say washington would an much easier place to get things done if people showed up and were, like, eh, eh, eh, i'm going to be evil and get money and power. the problem with washington is everyone shows up saying i'm going to bring justice and i'm going to make the world a better place. it's so important to me to address your question of why they're doing it. i truly believe most people who i am critiquing think that they are on the side of justice. i think we all feel just gutted by the places where racism still exist, where it's still state sponsored and it's really, really important to pay attention to that and to agitate, to solve those issues.

but while i think they are coming from a place of want dogma the world a better place, i don't think ebrom's book how to become an anti-racist would have become a bestseller if it weren't in the economic interest of liberal elites to focus on that. it's sort of complicated. there's the generous reading and the cynical reading and i try to hold both of those in my hands because i don't want to be a pollyanna but at the same time i know a lot of woke people and love a lot of woke people and they truly believe america is still white supremacy and that must be addressed in every single conversation. to your second point, maybe the reason they think that is completely. the conversation that brooks is addressing is one in which being the executive editor of "the new york times" had a meeting with the staff because the meeting was called because a headline had failed to call donald trump a racist, one of "the times"

didn't call him a racist and a meeting was called and one of the reporters asked him racism is baked into everything in this society so shouldn't that be the focus of our coverage and the editor said yes, yes, as we get away from focusing on trump. but the sociologist i cited in my book noticed the shift from many years before so it started around, you know, 2012, 2013. so much earlier. in fact it may have had an impact on helping elect trump. the third point you make about twitter, i'm going to address it quickly and come back to "the new york times." in 2014 "the new york times" wasn't doing great in terms of visual media and the current publisher wrote this innovation report to address where "the new york times'" failings were and one of the things in the report is we need our journalists to be social media stars and how you

make stories go viral. the report was horrify -- there was a journalist who didn't tweet out his story for two whole days and was the report and they wanted their journalists to have power to become social media stars and what happened was they conveyed that to individual journalists and they did become social media stars and now from the power of their platform on social media, they've been able to influence personnel decisions at "the new york times" because who wants to take on social media mobs. so i take your point and really glad you brought that back. host: harrison from south carolina, democratic caller. caller: i have a friend a general manager of a local tv station and did it through the 1990's and 2000's and we were in the back of a boat talking about

things and this subject came up and he pointed out, again, he was in the media business and he said when it turned bad is when they started putting ratings on it. and i don't know exact time frame of when that was. maybe you could clarify that but he said that's when it really turned is when it had a market attachment to it, it was all about advertising dollars. he said before that the news was the news, they put it out and people reacted to it. and now just like the power to mind was twitter and social media is all driving it where as in the walter cronkite days they told the stories and people reacted. now what is happening is people are not reacting but are making noise in some of the news so then the news will pick up on what it is. it's almost in reverse.

like i said, the social media is driving the news stories. host: let's take your point. guest: i think it's a really great point. people often talk about social media as being sort of the democratization of the news. you used to have the gatekeepers in the news and the people who had to passively consume it. the problem is the people with the power on social media are not representative of americans more generally and tend to be much younger, much more extreme, much more engaged, much more he -- we call it extremely online and they're very much driving the direction of the news like the caller said. you know, i just want to make a little counter to your point which is that back in the day i considered to be this amazing populist journalism in america in the 19th century, they were not nonpartisan but very much partisan on behalf of the poor

and working classes. that's another point. partisan news is not a problem but everyone is represented, if every group had their news. there was a time in the 19 20's there were so many communist newspapers in new york city you could have four communist newspapers you never dreamed of reading because you had the one you were reading but partisanship is not necessarily a problem. i don't think we should not have partisan news or that somehow we should have, god forbid, state regulation or anything like that. i think the problem is that today's media is part of only on behalf of the rich and the affluent and that's on both sides of the political spectrum and only catering to the top 10%. and the racial moral panic has enabled liberals of doing that under under the guys of peeling liking they're heroes.

host: democratic caller in new york city. caller: good morning, america. i wake up and i love the morning joe and i love his opinions and i watch fox news and my other point is why isn't anybody talking about the secretary of state colin powell, this gentleman was the secretary of state and he served our country and they're not interesting. i'd like to know about that. you have a nice day. host: putting you on the spot, i'm sure you don't know what the arrangements are for colin powell's funeral but his point about getting information that he wants to find and the

difficulty of doing so. guest: cornelius who is a democrat watches joe scarborough who is a independent and he watches fox news. that's the point. democratic people who don't see themselves reflected in the media will end up going increasingly to republicans and independents to get the news which is so strange. it's kind of like when you saw donald trump run away with the working class. wait, that's supposed to be our thing, you know. i think the reason there wasn't a lot of coverage of colin powell is because it didn't really fit into the narrative and that's the problem with this, we're so heavy on culture wars and there's so little room for anything that doesn't fit our narrative. host: in the book you have a breakdown of the audiences for certain personalities for anchors and what did you find?

income levels and who they watch because you had working class watching a fox news anchor and chris matthews, for example, as well. guest: it is so interesting, one thing the right has done is unite different levels of income around cultural issues, right? so when you say "working class in america" there's two ways to interpret that, there's the idea of the laboring, whether these people work in labor, whether they are from a certain income point of view, whether they're unionized or in a certain income bracket but there's a cultural side to this, increasingly, people are being united around opposition to the highly educated, to people with a college degree who have their

own set of values. and someone like rush limbaugh was able to unite very wealthy republicans with very poor and working class republicans over cultural issues, over these culture war issues. again, abandoning the economic plight of the people who needed him the most while he had a lock on their attention. i don't let off the right wing media at all. host: i just want to show people the numbers from your book, the dark is those that make over $75,000 and the gray is $30,000-$75,000 and the light gray is under $30,000. you have rush limbaugh with a combination audience, 30% of his audience makes over $75,000 and then 35,000 to 75,000 and hardball, similar statistics there. guest: yeah, absolutely. it is very complex and also these numbers have changed over

time as well. i think again that question of which emotions are being appealed to, whose emotions are being appealed to. what's very devastating is working class liberal americans really don't have a media outlet catering to them anymore and really have been forgotten. people who are pro-choice and very much people who are democrats who are pro-choice and very much in sort of the lower income bracket, where are they going to get their news. no news outlet is catering to them and you see that. the liberal outlets, "the new york times" and "washington post," these people are catering to the highest level of education and increasingly income as well. host: let's go to jeff in phoenix, republican. hi, jeff. caller: thanks for taking my call. good analysis of the corporate media. my question to you and your guest would be how does the

corporate media compare or the culture compare with lobuli funded media like pbs news or n.p.r.? guest: wnyc, my reporting found they had newted a quota on quoting people who were not disgenderred white men, meaning that performance reviews would be tied to how many people of color and nonheterosexual people you interviewed for your story and what we've really seen is that since this was instituted, you can't turn on n.p.r. and listen to it for more than 10 minutes without hearing about race. again, i'm saying this is a lefty who cared about racism and combating it and especially where it's still state sponsored but that's ridiculous. you see it comes from a personnel decision, it comes from sort of a mandate by the

company to force people to cover these issues. and you know, so i'm not really seeing a major difference between publicly funded outlets and the ones that are sort of making money for profit places, and i think that's probably because they're geared at the same audience, the n.p.r. audience is the same, "new york times" audience is the same box audience. everybody sort of leaning into the same audience and because we're so good at tracking what the audience wants because of digital media, it's very easy to lean into what they're looking for. host: kathleen, democratic caller, our last here. how are you? caller: i'm great. i don't believe highly educated humans don't understand political topics from cnn, msnbc to c-span can't understand all talking quotes expressed as you

have. guest: i definitely want to agree but. i'm sorry if that's how it came off. i completely agree with you. i don't mean to suggest in any way, god forbid, people who don't have a college degree understand things less or more poorly. the opposite. i think we need to increasingly speak to the people about those issues and speak to them with respect and what we've lost. what i meant to suggest is the way that the news is conveyed in these more liberal outlet is meant to suggest that they are really only speaking to highly affluent people. for example in the restaurants they cover or travel section or real estate section, you'll see houses that cost millions of dollars or second homes for sale for $2 million. i meant to suggest that, it's in the way that it's covered and not at all in the topics

covered. again, i want to really emphasize this. the problem is that we don't take the working class seriously and treat them with disrespect. i apologize i came across that way. i really apologize. marcus: the book is "bad news, how woke media is undermining politics." thank you very much for the conversation this morning. we appreciate you coming on and talking to our viewers. guest: thank so you much for having me. you're doing god's work. thank you so much 3678. host: we'll leave it there for now and back tomorrow morning, 7:00 a.m. eastern time. thanks for watching. enjoy the rest of your sunday. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010]

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