back better spending bills. then the going for broke podcast which profiles those who have endured economic hardship in the u.s.. "washington journal" is next. ♪ host: this is "washington journal" for october 29. now that the framework has been passed, congressional democrats are trying to get it over the finish line. for our first hour, you can discuss not only what is being offered in the build back better framework, but also tell us what you think about the stalemate currently going on on president biden's build back better agenda. republicans, (202) 748-8001.

democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. if you want to text us, you can do so at (202) 748-8003. you can post on our facebook page, and on twitter as well @cspanwj. this was some of the reaction from legislators as far as the framework is concerned. starting with kyrsten sinema, saying, "after months of good faith negotiations with the president on the white house, we have made significant progress on the proposed budget reconciliation package. i look forward to getting this done come expanding economic opportunities, and helping everyday families get ahead." senator joe manchin of west virginia saying, "as we work toward the next text of the legislation, i would hope that everyone works in good faith to do what is right for the american people."

sanchez saying, "finally delivering for millions who call this country home is the right thing for families and for our economies." lindsey graham on the senate side saying, "this so-called framework negotiated by democrats behind closed doors will add to our inflation problems and be an impediment to growth. there is nothing moderate about this proposal." that is some of the legislators reacting to the framework released yesterday by the white house. the president himself addressing reporters before he left for his trip to rome and ultimately to the climate summit. here is some of what he had to say yesterday about the framework. [video clip] >> it is a framework to create millions of jobs, grow our economy, invest in our nation and our people, turn crisis into opportunity, and put us on a path not just to compete, but to

win the economic come petition for the 21st century against china and every other. it is fiscally responsible -- every other country in the world. it is fiscally responsible. it is fully played for -- fully paid for. over the next 10 years, it will not add to the deficit at all. it will actually reduce the deficit, according to economists. i want to thank my colleagues in the congress for their leadership. we spent hours and hours over months and months working on this. no one got everything they wanted, including me, but that is what compromise is. that is consensus. that is what i ran on. i have long said compromise and consensus are the only way to get big things done in a democracy. important things done for the country. i know it is hard. i know how deeply people feel about the things that they fight for. but this framework includes

historic investments in our nation and in our people. any single element of this framework would fundamentally be viewed as a fundamental change in america. taking together, they are truly consequential. host: the president from yesterday. also putting on her feet, representative pramila jayapal, chair of the congressional progressive caucus, "we are going to get this done, but we are not going to leave the majority of the agenda behind." also supporting her is senator elizabeth warren, saying, "i support representative jayapal, and bill back better must move forward." it was reported yesterday that an attempt by house leadership to put a separate bill on infrastructure, the bipartisan inver structure bill, to get a separate vote on that. that did not succeed. this is the headline from the hill.

"progressives win again. no infrastructure vote on thursday. democratic leaders abandoned that attempt to clear the path for a bipartisan info structure bill as progressive helped firmly oppose without deeper assurances that a larger package of social programs was a slamdunk. the visit was held by lawmakers all stripes, but did little to convince liberals to vote immediately on the inference or bill -- on the infrastructure bill, and spark a new round of finger-pointing from lawmakers frustrated with a months long impasse and the president's sinking approval numbers." that is in play on the build back better agenda and the bipartisan infrastructure bill. we are asking about the stalemate and the details released yesterday as well. again, the numbers. for republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002.

we will start with barney in florida, a democrat. go ahead. caller: yes, kyrsten sinema and joe manchin, i think they are bought and paid for. i don't understand why america just refuses to help the middle class. kentucky is the poorest state in the union, and they still put mcconnell back in office. there's got to be something wrong. kyrsten sinema has been bought and paid for, too. i don't understand why we can't tax the higher income. they tax the middle income, even me. i don't understand. they don't use the roads, bridges and schools? why do people sit here and try to defend the richest people in the united states? that is my comment.

host: let's hear from todd in california, independent line. caller: good morning. the plan is to expensive -- is too expensive. if they would lower taxes across the board, people could take care of a lot of their needs. there shouldn't be any new spending. this has just become a ridiculous nanny state. i have to pay more for gas and food. host: it started at $6 trillion, down to $1.5 trillion, around $2 trillion. why do you still think that is too extensive? caller: the word trillion. there's no way this is ever going to be paid off. it will just keep tacking on and on future generations, and then the whole thing with the global warming green initiative, i

personally think global warming is a myth, but even if it is not , we have to burn fossil fuels to power electric cars. the whole thing is ridiculous. biden is the worst president we've ever had. he needs to be impeached. host: that is todd and california. let's go to ed on the republican line. caller: i've only got two things about the better agenda. i will let pedro tell you about the first one, and that is that instead of giving all the people that voted for biden, he's going to give for hundred thousand dollars to illegal aliens. $400,000? that was number one. my second thing was -- host: which is not part of the legislation currently being debated, but go ahead. caller: uh-huh.

well, why would he give $400,000 to illegal aliens and not the people who voted for him? his record player told him he would be able to stop all of the hurricanes and all of the floods and all of the fires and tornadoes that we have been having for hundreds of thousands of years by putting up a few windmills. the man needs to be impeached. he's out of his mind. host: so you are concerned on the climate portion particularly? why is that? caller: well, like the other caller said, you're going to have to have electricity. you have to have fuel to make electricity. host: ok. let's go to anthony, columbia, maryland, democrats line. caller: hello? hey. so i think we all keep going in

the same circle of information, and some people seem to have not gotten any national memo about climate change is actually real. it is changing. that is why it is called climate change. people just really focus on the importance of furthering our cause as a species and not worrying about their backyards and whether they get reelected. host: so what do you think the spending associate with this bill on climate efforts will do at the end? caller: it will create jobs. that is what it is designed for. it is -- everyone is beholden to someone, but i think -- host: do you think it does anything specifically as far as changing the climate or reducing climate emissions?

caller: i mean, we've got to start somewhere to fix years of doing it the wrong way. just to give out solar. two colors before said you will need fossil fuels to power electric cars. no, you use solar power to power electric cars. people just don't get the national memo. i don't know what the reality is . we need to change with it. host: that is columbia, maryland , on some of the political back going on. you can comment on those fronts. (202) 748-8001 for republicans, (202) 748-8000 for democrats, (202) 748-8002 for independents. you can also text us your thoughts and post on our social

media sites. "the wall street journal" has been reporting on several stories. their congressional reporter is drawing us now. good one. guest: thanks for having me ask good morning. -- good morning. guest: thanks for having me. host: what is the mood on capitol hill in response to what was released yesterday? guest: i think it depends on who you ask. there are a lot of democrats who were excited to see a framework that has a little bit more finality then some of the other proposals out there. $1.85 trillion framework the white house put out there seems to be something that can actually get to the finish line in the coming weeks. i think progressives, some of them said there are a lot of things that are not in this framework that we would have liked to see. at the same time, this will be a major accomplishment for us and for the democratic party. i think at the same time, there are centrists who are frustrated

that the infrastructure bill has still not passed the house, and they are frustrated that the framework did not get democrats to that point. but i think overall, it feels like we are finally moving closer to getting some of these bills across the finish line. host: to that infrastructure vote yesterday, what exact he happened as far as the ability not to put it on the floor as a separate vote? guest: yesterday, after the white house put the framework out, house speaker nitze plus he said she wanted to bring the infrastructure bill to the floor that day. the reason these bills are connected is because progressive democrats in the house have said we will not vote to pass the info searchability the other bill, the build back better bill, is sewn up a little bit more. until we have clarity on what is in that bill and whether it can pass the senate. yesterday they put out this framework. president biden came to the hill and set i have this new agreement. i believe this has the 50 votes

in the senate. speaker pelosi said now we should pass the infrastructure bill. we should get this across the finish line and send president biden abroad with a big legislative accomplishment. but progressive democrats once again had a similar situation at the end of september. they said we still don't have what we need only build back better bill. we still need to see text and we still need more time to process it, and we will not vote to pass the info searchability if it comes to the house lord asked the infrastructure built if it comes to the -- the infrastructure bill if it comes to the house floor today. so they are pushing into next week at the earliest. host: remind people about, on the house side, how any votes can democrats afford to lose these various packages do not get passed? guest: in the senate they can afford to lose no votes. in the house, they can afford to lose no more than three votes. so they are dealing with

historically slim margins even as they are trying to pass major pieces of legislation. there's been a lot of delays and back-and-forth and haggling over the last several months, and a lot of that is just a reflect in of the fact of how difficult it can be to operate with such razor thin majorities in congress. host: the house is out today. what happens going forward as far as making efforts to pass this? guest: the chairwoman of the congressional progressive caucus, pramila jayapal, said yesterday that progressives want to work on the text of the build back better bill over the weekend, and that they might be able to get to a point by next week where they feel that bill is ready to go, and a key standard for them is that that bill comes to the house floor. she says that could happen as soon as next week. we will see about that.

oftentimes, that timeline and deadlines in congress and of getting delayed and pushed back. but it does feel like, after the release of this framework, there is actually some legislative texts under construction here on the social safety net and climate bill, that that could actually come together in the near future. maybe not next week, but in the coming weeks. host: for those who are still hesitant, is there still going to be an effort to add to the bill, whether by dollar figures or programs that are important? if that is the case, what should folks at home watch out for? guest: there are definitely still some outstanding issues. there is, for example, a major one is the government's power to negotiate the price of prescription drugs. this is something democrats have talked about for a long time, about how it has been a priority to lower the cost of prescription drugs. the framework white house put out yesterday did not include any sort of plan to reduce the cost of prescription drugs.

that is something that folks are still working on a compromise for, that there have been some concerns from moderates and centrists about how democrats are approaching that issue. that is something that there are active negotiations on still, and that is something a lot of folks are hoping to see added to the legislation. that is probably the biggest one. another example of that is repealing the cap on state and local tax deductions. that is a major priority for lawmakers from new york and new jersey especially who say that the limit on how much you can deduct from your tax bill for state and local taxes that republicans put into place in 2017, that needs to be repealed. those are the two biggest issues, but i think it is worth mentioning that the progressive caucus yesterday, despite the fact that they see prescription drug pricing in particular as a major issue and that there are several other priorities they had that were not in the framework that was released

yesterday, they said, we are ready to work on the legislation framework now. we are not demanding any additional adds, even though we value something like a paid leave policy that was dropped from the bill. they are comfortable with the legislation as it is now. so i think what we saw yesterday is the bulk of what will eventually become law. host: andrew duehreh -- andrew duehren, who works for "the wall street journal," thank you for the time. reported by the wall street journal, about $550 billion going to clean energy efforts, 200 billion dollars to child income tax credits, 150 billion dollars for home care and housing, affordable care credits, 130 million dollars.

$140 million towards immigration related efforts. that is just some of the financial features of the agenda yesterday. you can talk about those and the politics going on with that as well. monroe township, new jersey, and the pendant line. this is wrong. the head -- this is ron. though i had -- go ahead. caller: good morning. first of all, i agree with the first caller, we should get as much of the build back better program for america as possible. next, $0.54 of every tax dollar goes to the military, and we haven't won a war since world war ii. there's a lot of money there that i feel could be saved. also, insurance companies have a lot of excess money that they are investing in consumerism, and we really need to invest that -- host: but as far as the build

back better agenda exactly, what would you like to see more of, or what would you advocate most within what was proposed yesterday? caller: well, i would like to see fusion energy. fusion energy would allow us to recycle our minerals, and it would be able to purify all of the water we need, and it would give us all of the electrical energy, so it would be a one-shot deal for climate change. i feel the reason we are not getting fusion is because the carbon industries are holding it back. with their advertisements and such. host: josh is in silver spring, maryland, republican line. hi. caller: good morning, pedro. i just had a couple of quick points i wanted to make area a couple of questions, and then just a comment. one, given all of the

inflationary pressures and all of the problems we are having, all of the major problems that we are having now are going to really present themselves in several months. so how is spending all of this money we don't even have it, it is really not one to be paid for despite what is being said, necessarily going to contribute to resolving this problems? the second, this is not just being paid for now, but we will run out of money at the end of this timeframe. then we are essentially creating more spending. the third thing is when president biden says that this is consensus and compromise, this is really compromise for maybe half the country, and really it is a break between can said this between democrats only. so that moves to my final comment, which is if you are going to jam through everything on straight party lines and not

really get the compromise needed , you are not building better policy because you are preserving the worst elements that will lead to, when the republicans get in office, we are going to jam through what we want to do. i don't think, even as a republican, that that is the best way or the right way to run the country. host: that is josh in maryland. let's hear from tawny in oklahoma city, oklahoma, democrat line. caller: let me start off by saying, i learned a long time ago i don't listen to what people say. i listen to what they do. the only reason why anything is valuable is because we put the value on it. when they devalue the dollar bill -- host: tony, exactly how does this relate to the legislation? caller: because they are going to continue to devalue us as human beings. if you notice, the democrats at

least are trying to make efforts for the common working poor. so at least allow them to pay bills, to have a chance to live respectively. however, the republicans are sitting there doing absolutely nothing but constantly talking rhetoric and shooting false information. to me, that is unbelievable as americans. we preach unity, but we practice division. so again, stop listening to what people say and listen to what they do. host: that is tony in obama. "the washington -- in oklahoma. "the washington post" analyzing the agenda released yesterday, unveiling the details of the spending plan, says "the white house took great care to stress that the plan is financed in full. they aim to pay for the package through a variety of new tax policies, including rules that

require companies to pay a minimum of affixing percent taxes -- minimum of if 2% taxes, seeking to address the fact that some probable multinational corporations use creative accounting to lower their tax burdens to zero. this is part of a campaign pledge to unwind the tax cuts enacted under president donald trump in 2017. the white house also backed off a plan to apply a new billionaires income tax to roughly 700 americans, including amazon founder jeff bezos and tesla founder and ceo jeff bezos. the story -- jeff bezos." the story adding that jeff bezos owns the washington post. dean, you are next up on our independent line. [indiscernible] caller: that's what he was preaching back then.

we did have in our country and europe, back in the 60 hundreds, 70 900s, and 1800. there were no cars and vehicles -- the 1600s, 1700s, and 1800s. there were no cars and vehicles. the windmills froze up when it got cold up there. host: so what do you think this does when it comes to climate issues? caller: it does nothing because we got one big problem, china. china is building powerplants every day, more and more. they are not going to follow the rules. so biden -- china is not going to cut back production in things . they are to pass it on to us while we are trying to follow the rules, and we are going to be having plants shut down, and china is not going to shut down their power grade. 2 that is dean -- host: that is

dean. you can give us a call when it comes back to the build back better framework released yesterday. a lot of politics going on alongside this effort to get that bill passed. call us on the numbers on the screen. you can text us. you can also post on our social media sites. one of the people commenting yesterday about the future of the legislation was house minority leader kevin mccarthy, speaking before reporters, talking about what he saw was the potential of actually getting it to the floor. [video clip] >> i don't know if it will make it to the floor. it is interesting. talking to many of the democrats, they saw what happened to josh gottheimer. he was given a promise by speaker pelosi. that promise has been broken many times. there was a promise on something it to come. so he voted for reconciliation to move forward. they found that was a bad deal. now she's going to the progressives with the exact same thing she promised josh gottheimer and failed at three times.

i'm not sure the progressives will buy that may be in the future, they will get something. maybe in the future, they will have a vote. maybe in the future, but for something today, not knowing what is in it for tomorrow. host: again, kevin mccarthy there, talking to reporters yesterday about what he saw was the future of the legislation. president in rome today. several things planned as far as his agenda is concerned. one, including meeting with pope francis, and then a bilateral meeting in the vatican city. he will also have a meeting with the italian president while he is there, as well as the italian prime minister, and also the french president, emmanuel macron. you may be member that one of the issues of late between the united states and france was that issue of the security agreement between the u.s., u.k., and australia. that may come up during the president's time in rome. also addressing the g20 summit before he goes to the climate

summit in glasgow to talk about climate issues. this is joe in california, democrats line. caller: hi. i think one of the things we are facing now from an international perspective, the united states seems to be swerving so hard, is because we have intimate political corruption -- we have endemic lyrical corruption all the way from the head down to the tail -- endemic political corruption all the way from the head down to the tail. people are saying all kinds of things. what is underlying every thing is a power play. people feel out of power, like normal, regular people, so they are attaching themselves to one thing or another. 2 how would you see that -- host: how would you see that in this process is playing out? caller: for instance, the

progressive caucus has been consistent all along, that they had a $6 trillion proposal which stay negotiated down to $3.5 trillion. so i just want to, for people who don't believe there line on it, they have been negotiating in good faith the whole time. then we had months of watching joe manchin and kyrsten sinema waltzing around the national stage, and we wondered what they were thinking or doing. but obviously, they really can't defend what they are doing because it is inherently undemocratic to have two senators hold up these bills which are in some cases, have 80% popularity among the american populace. host: that is joe in california. we will hear from nolan in ohio, democrats line. caller: hello. host: go ahead. caller: basically, i have two

comments. the first i think is possibly most important to look at it in the framework of the other side, which is that if mitch mcconnell was arguing for the democrats right now, he would be saying that elections have consequences. elections have consequences. therefore, mr. manchin and ms. synema need to understand that. host: when it comes to the issues of paying for the proposed framework, "the new york times" say this about the deficit, as far as the reduction in the deficit, saying, "mr. biden said thursday his plans were fiscally responsible, and

claimed that the proposals would reduce the budget deficit, that the cap increases would more than offset the $125 trillion in spending, housing, childcare, and private -- and climate initiatives. however, nonpartisan projections have offered less rosy projections of what proposals might actually raising revenue. some democrat lawmakers are still fighting for the inclusion of provisions like state and local tax that could add on t the total cost of the package. " again, that is an "the new york times." let's hear from mike in new jersey, republican line. caller: hello. for me, i believe the build back better plan is going to ruin america. why? because when you refurbish a house, what happens? you take it all apart, and then

you change it. so i believe he wants to change, fundamentally change america, and that means it won't be build back better for me and you. it might be built back better for somebody who is already trying to give $450,000 to the illegals coming over the border. host: how do you think this legislation will specifically change things, as you describe it? caller: i think it will change because of the fact that whatever joe biden is doing, he doesn't do for america. i don't see one thing he has done for america yet. host: let's go to debbie in long beach, california. hi there. caller: hi. i have a really difficult time when people blame the entire republican party for what happened on january 6. most of the republicans in the united states were not part of that, and they would not think

that was a good thing that happened. most of the republicans would say that was wrong. i think it is like blaming all of the muslims for what happened on 9/11. host: let me stop you there because that is not our discussion this moring. this was about the framework released yesterday. what do you think of that? caller: i think they need to work together to do something that is right for the united states. they need to put partisan stuff aside. they need to work together. i myself was very disappointed in the california democratic representatives that spoke today because both of them were very hard on, they were talking about the whole republican thing, and they don't want to work with republicans. january 6 is over. host: again, back to the debate over this, what do using about the debate currently going amongst the democrats over this proposed legislation? caller: well, i think that they

are divided even among themselves. so this is not something that can be rushed through. it needs to be talked about. it needs to be thought about. this is a huge decision being made for the people of the united states, and they are being made by the people who are on the biggest stage in america. host: that is debbie on our independent line. jack hutton from twitter says, "the republicans are to blame." rosemary saying, "synema and manchin are the ones to blame." this from derek off of twitter, saying, "it is still 100 ssent

better than anything your president got on infrastructure, health care -- 100% better than anything president trump got on infrastructure, emigration, health care, or the wall." we are getting your reaction too. republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. we will go to mark from florida, democrats line. caller: it is important to remember that joe biden campaigned on all of the items that were in the original $3.5 trillion reconciliation bill. those are the things w that heon -- the things that he won on. i do want to comment on i am disappointed that two provisions

are apparently cut out, and that is allowing medicare to negotiate prescription drug prices. every other wealthy country in the world does that, and they save a lot of money. 88% of americans are in favor of that, and yet that was not included. and then also, the paid family leave. that is something that was one of biden's main points, and they cut it to four weeks. then they cut it completely, and yet it had 73% support of all americans. and the u.s. is only one of six countries in the entire world that doesn't have any paid family leave. we are just behind the times. that's all i wanted to say. host: let's hear from another

floridian, republican line. this is david. caller: yes, sir. i was looking at this. i'm kind of happy with the democrats who stood up against this bill. there's a lot that is in here that just absolutely doesn't need to be there. these democrats that stood up against these other democrats is the -- i used to be a democrat two years ago. this stuff going on in the democratic party is a takeover of the democratic party of the foreign party. the stuff they are doing this for other people, not for the people of america. none of these bills, none of this bill is for us. it is for other countries. host: as far as the bill that was released yesterday, what is your problem with it?

what is the thing that you don't like most about it? caller: giveaway. host: such as what? caller: any part of it. any part of the giveaways. it is a mockery of the country. everything they are doing, everything in the democratic party is just absolutely slipped. -- absolutely flipped. the ideology, how they think anymore is just against the american people. host: that is david in florida giving us his thoughts this morning when it comes to the release of the framework yesterday. you can see everything that was talked about on capitol hill if you go to our website, c-span.org. also, if you want to see things play out in real time and you want to watch it on your device, you can download and watch it on our new app, c-span now, which

offers streaming of major event on capitol hill and around. there's a couple of ways you can follow along with what's going on on capitol hill. pat in wisconsin, independent line. caller: hey there. i am calling over this $1.75 trillion infrastructure bill here. this does nothing to solve the supply chain crisis that is going on on the west and east coast right now. looking at this, honestly, this looks like the $1.75 trillion bill. we are one union strike away from shutting down this country. they call this thing a build back better plan, but not one stimulus check for the american people now that everything is back open. that is my thoughts. host: so you would advocate for another stimulus check? caller: i would.

now the businesses are back open, they went to get the economy ripping and rowing to go? 100% agree that we need another stimulus check. host: but the argument on the republican side would be that now the businesses are back open, that is not necessary, at least for some in this day and age, compared to the start of the pandemic. caller: they've got to pay for this $1.75 trillion bill one way or the other. i would give andrew yang a call. i forgot how much you went to giveaway per month. he actually had it drawn out. i think they need to get these lawyers out of the room and get to the real world, may be start talking to some actual business people, and start trying to get this economy and the government going again. host: politico taking a look at what is going on on capitol hill, especially when it comes to the topic of infrastructure. you can find it online. some of the legislators commenting on the failed effort to pass a separate

infrastructure vote. it puts the virginia representative apical spanberger, saying, "i think it is wholly apparent that today was not a success. we have a high-stakes gubernatorial showdown on tuesday. because people choose to be obstructionist, we are not delivering these things to my state or the rest of the country. i guess we will have to wait because apparently, failing roads and bridges can just wait in the minds of some people. it also quotes greg meeks, democrat of new york, saying, "there's a lot on the line here. we fill our cup up i getting stuff done. the party started with a clear plan this week to send a $550 billion structure plan -- billion interest or plan to president biden's desk ahead of a nailbiter gubernatorial election this coming tuesday. as more of that if you want to follow along as politico.

let's hear from ray in pennsylvania, republican line. caller: hello. yes, we keep hearing these democrats saying that two senators are holding up this bill, and it is undemocratic, but in fact, it is 52 senators holding up this bill. they don't even account for the 50 republicans that are in the senate. secondly, this bill is just another expansion of federal government power. they want to take over childcare now. they've taken over education, which is not part of the federal government's constitutional role. now they want to take over childcare. are they going to have all these woke ideas starting with the kids at two or three years old already? is that what the plan is? most of the things in this bill are not constitutional as far as the role the federal government. the federal government has way overstepped its stuff with its

money, buying votes, buying influence, no biden is in europe. what is he doing? he's going to be handing out money to try to buy friends and influence. we need to say no to federal programs and federal money. host: the president in rome, heading to scotland for the world climate summit. but before he left, speaking to reporters. he talked about the specifics of what was released yesterday, and then talked about why he thought that congress should pass the proposal. [video clip] >> somewhere along the way, we stop investing in ourselves, investing in our people. america is still the largest economy in the world. we still have the most productive workers and the most innovative minds in the world. what we risk losing is our edge as a nation. our infra structure used to be rated the best in the world. today, according to the world economic forum, we rank 13th in

the world. we use to lead the world in educational achievement. now the organization for economic cooperation and development rank's america 35th out of the 37 major countries when it comes to investing in early childhood education and care. we know where our children start impact significantly how they will finish. we can't be competitive in the 21st century global economy if we continue to slide. that is why i have said all along, we need to build america from the bottom up in the middle out, not from the top down. the trickle-down economics, that has always failed us. i can't think of a sigel time when the middle-class has done well that the wealthy haven't done very well. i can think of many times, including now, where the super wealthy do very well in the middle-class don't do well. that is why i propose the investments congress is now considering in two critical pieces of legislation.

positions i ran on as president, positions i announced when i laid out in a joint session of congress what my economic agenda was. these are not about left versus right. moderate versus progressive. or anything else that pits americans against one another. this is about competitiveness versus complacency. competitiveness versus complacency. it is about expanding opportunity, not opportunity denied. it is about leading the world or letting the world pass us by. host: that is the president from yesterday. if you want to see that whole speech, you can do so at c-span.org. several people sending out tweets, including numbers of congress. you heard from kevin mccarthy earlier. if you go to his twitter feed, he puts on his site the familiar cartoon of charlie brown, and which lucy pulls the football away from charlie brown, with the president being charlie brown, and lucy being speaker

pelosi. that is on his twitter feed. also, chris murphy of connecticut saying this. "the build back better act is extraordinary and historic, taxing billionaires and millionaires so that people can afford childcare, health care, and rent, while saving the climate, too. let's get it done." let's hear from john, costa mesa, california, democrats line. caller: good morning, and thank you for c-span. let's send joe biden out into the world stage with more uncertainty. you know, there is a race for global dominance on the world stage. we are the number one economy. china is number two. we are the hardest working people on this planet, and you've got to take care of the old. you've got to take care of the young. when you do that, when you take the burden off of the workers of this country, we are able to get back to work. this plan would help us get back

to work. the infrastructure. but you've got to get these impediments out of the way. folks don't need much help to lighten the burden on those folks that have to take care of us. i am 67 years old. when you get older, it is harder, especially if you are working with your hands. i think the republican party should be apologetic for what we have gone through. through the pandemic, the last presidency, the insurrection and all of that, and that everything the one of them doesn't want to go with this, you know, let's get it done. host: that is john in california. if you go to "the new york times" this morning, there's a story in relation to china's efforts mining coal, saying it

is hurrying to burn more coal, which will probably be a topic at the world climate summit, saying, "beijing's leaders are determined to provide ample coal this season. china is extending mines to produce a nearly 6% rise from last year. china already digs up and burns more coal than the rest of the world combined. the effort is infused with patriotism. guarantee the supply has become a national slogan in official statements and even on red banners in front of coal trucks." that is from "the new york times," one of the topics that will most like to be brought up as the president heads to the world climate summit in scotland. the president in rome currently, expecting meetings with the pope and other leaders. also, he's excited to address the g20. george in virginia, independent line. caller: i would like to see them

take the one under $20 billion they are planning to use to help illegal immigrants and put it back into one of the programs they have already cut. i personally do not believe that illegal immigrants deserve any help, and i think the money should be used to help actual americans. thank you very much. host: a related story enterprise by "the wall street journal" this morning, from michelle hackman and others, saying that the biden administration is in talks to offer, good families separated during the trumpet adminstration around 402,000 dollars a person in compensation as several agencies work to resolve lawsuits filed on behalf of parents and children, who say the government subjected them to lasting psychological trauma." more to that story at "the wall street journal." let's hear from henry in virginia, democrats line. caller: good morning. look, i think they should go

back to bernie sanders and give them $6 trillion. they went to $3.50 trillion. we got joe biden, the house of representatives, and i think i will switch over to independent. host: but there wasn't support for a $3.5 trillion bill. why would you increase that figure? caller: you've got the party. it is your party. they elected you and you run on doing all these things. they just cut the thing up. they are trying to please two people. you know, they should have stuck with the plan, the $3.5 trillion, and let that go or don't go nowhere. thank you. host: let's hear from george on the republican line from ohio. caller: thanks for taking my

call, and of course, you and all your family a great, healthy thanksgiving and christmas. when the democrats ran for office, when joe biden ran for office, he promised medicare for all. they were promising to fix social security. obama and biden were both president and vice president. they had the full congress for eight years. they did nothing. they could solve both of those and did absolutely nothing. i am more republican than a democrat, but when you look at this build back better budget, remember, obama had to sequester when he was in office. where we getting all of this money? are we spending into the doom? it is crazy what is going on. i worry about the future. i am 66 years old. have seen my life. i have seen the heyday. but i have seen the downturn. caller yes china.

that is the problem, china. host: but the plan is taxing the wealthy. what you thing about that? caller: that is based on the economy doing well. i don't see that next year. you are going to see a stock market crash. then what do we do? china sees this administration as terribly weak. we are going to be in trouble next year. host: that is george in ohio. one of those people yesterday express and concerns was the house ways and means committee ranking number kevin brady, and the debate over legislation and what was proposed. you can find that on our website at c-span.org. here is some of kevin brady's thoughts from yesterday. [video clip] >> this is economic sabotage. these coupling tax hikes will kill american jobs. drive many of them overseas, hammer small businesses as a struggle to recover, worsen the labor shortage, and drive inflation even higher. never has washington spent so

much to kill so many american jobs, force prices even higher, and make a whole new generation of poor on government dependence. it could not come at a worse time. there are a hundred billion dollars in tax increases on american businesses who compete both here and around the world. this constitutes an economic surrender to china, russia, japan, and europe, driving american jobs, investment, and manufacturing overseas. the new corporate memo tax is really a made in america tax, hitting american manufacturing, energy, and technology business is the hardest, along with american consumers. why do democrats insist on making it better to be a foreign company or a worker then an american one? is it any wonder our foreign competitors are happy to embrace the little minimum tax -- the global minimum tax? they are getting a bite of our

taxes while america surrenders first. and who pays for all of this? it is the workers, the low income, and the middle-class who always bear the brunt of these taxes. host: again, you can find that at c-span.org. if you want to see some of the debate going back and forth amongst various democrats and republicans over the proposed framework yesterday, you can talk about in their remaining minutes of this segment. not only the price tag and what the money has been assigned to, but also the politics going back and forth over this bill, this framework. s -- dee in california, your next up. caller: i am calling because i heard you ask somebody else what don't you like in this bill. this bill is not written. this bill is proposed. there are 1700 pages, and then 1400 additional pages that was just given to congress at 2:00 yesterday afternoon.

host: but there's also large features as far as the framework is concerned, and that was the nature of my question to the viewer, but go ahead. caller: it has been rewritten, so nobody has read this bill. so you are asking, how do you feel? well, we don't know. how about you guys come on and say this is what the new bill is. you are expecting us to say we support this when we don't even know. it is not even out in congress. there's no cbo scores, no nothing. host: again, earlier, i read, as far as the large price tag, $500 billion for climate issues, child tax and earn credit income at $200 billion. in any of those categories, what do you like or not like? caller: what do you know? what do you know? have you read the bill? host: i told you the framework

which was released yesterday. this is a forum for you guys, so if you want to leave it at that, that's fine. but is there anything being introduced that you like or don't like? caller: sure. it is likely framework of a house with no roof on it. ok? host: but the framework as far as when least, what do you like or don't like. caller: i don't -- do you know what is in the bill? host: i have told you several times what are the pieces of that, so we will leave it there. let's go to robin from maine, republican line. caller: i'm just calling because i would love to make a comment on what "the wall street journal" was reporting about reparations for illegal immigrants of $450,000. host: let's start with the topic at hand as far as what was released yesterday. what do you think of that? caller: of the $450,000? host: of the bill back better framework. caller: no.

first of all, the reconciliation bill should be stopped immediately. we have more things we need to take care of. we have more things we need to take care of that are important to get this country back on its feet, before we start giving away or spending money. host: such as what? caller: well, first, we need to close our borders. we need to get that wall built. president biden is looking for a wall around his house and he is not willing to secure our own borders for our country? host: and as far as the specifics of the framework yesterday, what do you find at issue for that? caller: first, i don't think we should be spending any of that money, not right now. it is just a giveaway, and i believe most americans are not looking for free stuff. i am hoping that most americans are not looking for the free stuff or the climate things. we need to take care of our country first.

we need to get back on her feet. i know people have said trump didn't get anything done, but trump had us energy independent. we weren't begging anybody for oil. he was closing our border and doing a good job of it until it stopped. we have already paid for the materials for the wall. we are paying the contractors for not building the wall. host: we are going to have to leave it there. for all of you who participated, we thank you for doing so in this first hour. we will have segments throughout the morning. we will hear from grover norquist of americans for tax reform about some of those tax provisions yesterday released as part of the build back better framework. we will have that conversation up next. later on in the program, we will hear from journalists ray suarez and alissa quart. they have started a new podcast called "going for broke," that chronicles economic hardship. we will go through some of the thinking on this podcast and why they decided to start it.

most of those -- both of those conversations coming up on "washington journal." ♪ >> this week on "q&a," senior fellow at the american enterprise institute discusses "the poor side of town," is critical look at the effort by the federal government, private developers, and others to create low-cost housing in the united states. >> what happened was once your home is torn down, you are directed to the project, which seemed nice at first, but you can only rent in the projects. the government owns them. you can never own anything in public subsidized housing. to this day, this remains a problem. 45% of the residents of public housing to this day are african american. those are all people who are not owning anything, not accumulate

wealth. we should not be surprised that, having steered ever can americans into public housing, that there is a gap between black-and-white wealth. >> the author of "the poor side of town," on c-span's "q&a." you can listen to app. >> monday, the u.s. supreme court will hear arguments in two cases concerning the texas abortion law which spans nearly all abortions after the six weeks of pregnancy. at 2:00 a.m., the justices here woman's health versus jackson which challenges part of the law that gives the public power to enforce it via civil suit without federal court review. at 11:00 a.m., united states versus texas set whether the justice department has a right to sue in federal court to block the law. watch live coverage on c-span two, on demand at c-span.org.

listen on c-span radio or on the new c-span mobile app. >> "washington journal" continues. host: our first guest is grover norquist, the president of americans for tax reform. welcome back to the program. guest: good to be with you. host: remind people about your organization and how are you financially backed? guest: americans for tax reform was set up at president reagan's request and our goal was to pass the tax reform act of 1986. when we did that, i came up with a taxpayer protection pledge because many in congress and many americans were concerned that if you made 1000 changes to the tax code in a room somewhere, there would be a tax increase. they call it tax reform, but there would be higher taxes. many politicians felt tax reform would give you tax increases. we wanted to make sure that did not happen.

we have shared with people who run for the house, the senate, the presidency, and governors and legislators the simple plans they take and put in writing to their voters, not to me, but to the voters of their state that they will oppose and vote against any tax increase. the vast majority of republicans in the house and senate, 16 governors and 1000 state legislators have made that commitment to their voters. if you ever talk to a legislator, just ask them, have you made that public commitment to the people of your state that you will reform government to cost less. not raise taxes to continue doing all of the failed things and refused to reform anything. it is a very interesting divide. i also run the wednesday meeting in d.c. where we bring 100 center-right activists and people who work for the hill to

talk about what all of the modern free-market liberty movement are doing. people who care about homeschooling. people who care about small businesses. people who care about religious liberty, lower taxes, the second amendment, the right to vague -- the right to vote. all the various things that people want to be left alone. now we have similar meetings in 45 state capitals and 20 overseas. we have a good network of people who sit around a table. everyone who is in favor of more limited government and more individual liberties for families and individuals work together and make sure that they are heading in the right direction. host: i imagine one of those discussions you have been having is the tax framework that is part of this build back better framework released yesterday. i want to work through some of the proposals yesterday with the most money being proposed coming in from changes at the irs.

an expected $400 billion. what are those proposals and could you see that kind of dollar figure as far as revenue from those changes? guest: they want the irs to have 87,000 more bureaucrats, enforcers to go around and look at your bank account and they want to spend $80 billion and higher 87,000. that is more people that serve on all of the aircraft carriers in the united states together. you could fill the coliseum three times with social distancing with that many irs agents. that is a lot of agents. the irs from 2017 until 2019 at 5000 slots open. they could not fill them. why? because the union has a rule that you can only hire first and inside the unionized

bureaucracy. you cannot go outside and get talent so those jobs would not get filled. you will hear from some people. we did not have enough irs agents. that is not the fault of not budgeting for it. that is the union rules that they have lived with at the irs. one of the reasons people are concerned about giving the irs more money and this other idea, which is not dead, it is over on the side. the president wants it, nancy pelosi wants it. the only people who do not want it are 70% of democrats and 70% of americans who say it is a mistake to let the irs look through your bank account, no warrant, just access to all of those -- to your personal data. that is not something people are willing to put up with. host: the idea of hiring those people is to go after those who frequently or previously not

paid the taxes they should as a fundamental effort? do you think that is a bad idea or good idea? guest: you get different arguments. biden likes to say it is billionaires and big corporations. but the irs put out a press release says they intend to increase audits of small businesses 50%. they do not independent contractors. they do not like self-employed people. those are their targets. they made that very clear by what they are going after. billionaires pay their taxes because they have lawyers that make sure they do just as the law says and major corporations are audited regularly. what they are looking at going after our smaller businesses, nail salons, barbershops, local grocery stores. those are their target audiences. here is the challenge. we have seen the irs already abuse that. you put $10,000 in cash because of a cash business, nail salon,

barbershop would take it to the bank and you have to report it. if you put $9,000 and day take your money just because they think you are hiding the $1000. there are real horror stories of people having their life savings taken by the irs in an audit. the average irs audit of a small business is a little more than 27 months. the irs says, hi, small businessman. we think you have $2000. you can either give us the $2000 or hire a lawyer. which will it be? that is the level of problem that we have with the irs. 65% of voters believe that the irs already has too much power. it is one of the reasons people don't like it. it is their own internal labor union rules which have said they are not hiring people.

the irs has been hiring back people who were thrown out because they were looking at people's private data. they had no legal right to. they got hired back. so the irs does not punish people who do that. they tell them it is ok, you can come back. we also have a problem because the treasury department, 80% of which is irs agents, the money that they contribute to candidates, 97% goes to democrats. so you have a politicized union for the irs agents. 97% democrat. a few high your 80,000 more irs agents and they pay dues, that recycles straight back into the democratic party. host: there was a recent analysis on the market watch website by the center for american progress. he talks about the audit capability. he says the biden proposal is designed to improve the ability to select who the audit so that it does more audits of tax

cheats and fewer unnecessary audits of regular people who pay what they owe. for the average american, the only practical effect of this proposal is to reduce likelihood of getting audited. how would you respond? guest: they are a very good left-wing group. many people have been hired straight out of it. they are a wing of the modern democratic party. those are the talking points of the people who want the irs to have more power and more control. give us power, we will be responsible. host: what is wrong with the argument he makes? guest: i will give you a couple examples. what the irs is doing right now, you give them more money. what will he do with it? they are required by law to do a study of the complexity of the irs code every year. they have not done it and 20 years. 20 years, they have made no effort to do that and that is a legal responsibility for the irs. one of the studies that the inspector generals had found that 42% of their printers were not working. why? they had not undone the trash or

change the ink. this is not an operation that is taking things seriously and 42% of the printers do not work because they do not know how to take the old printer ink out and put in new ink or they just let it pile up so it jams everything. the irs was caught -- they have cases against people, personal data and they say we will investigate you. they were storing that data on on the break rooms where people have lunch. not where it was secure. the kind of thing that we get any policemen thrown in prison and fired if they behave that way with evidence in a criminal case. the irs -- the criminal code has more cars than agents. host: let me pause you only to invite people. (202) 748-8001 republicans.

(202) 748-8000 democrats. you can text your questions or comments for americans for tax reform at (202) 748-8003. this 15% corporate minimum tax. who does that impact the most? guest: corporate taxes are important because they are a way of hiding. corporations spend 70% of their money on salaries. the best studies say that about 70% of the corporate income tax is paid by workers in lower pay. there are some left-wing groups that think it is only 25%, but it is not 0%. about 70%, what with the company have done with it? they would have paid payroll. that is what they are not doing now. sometimes they are able to raise prices if there is not a lot of competition. and so you have inflation, higher prices, and consumers pay

the higher corporate income tax. in more cases, it depresses wages. we saw this when the republicans cut taxes in 2017. in 2019, we used to have the highest corporate rate in the world at 35%. higher than france, higher than communist china. higher than the european average. we were at 35%. we took it down to 21%. what happened? you have strong economic growth. you had on employment go down to 3.5%, the lowest in 50 years. they were hiring people, they were paying people more. the median income for a family of four, not the average. bill gates making a billion dollars does not move the median. the median got a 4400 dollar increase in compensation that year alone. 6.8% increase. that is what happens when you

cut the corporate rate. unfortunately biden wants to reverse engineer the progress of 2018 and 2019 before covid and you will see workers getting paid less, not getting pay increases. everyone who has a utility bill, the law says when a corporation, your utility pays corporate income taxes, that is passed through to your utility bill. you will see your utility bills go up to pay biden's tax on corporations. your utility bill will go up to pay the corporate income tax that he tells you is being paid by somebody else. the only reason to have the corporate tax is to hide who is actually paying the tax. and it works a lot of times. we did a series of polls. the majority of americans understand that it means lower wages. the majority of americans understand it means higher prices. a majority of americans know it means we are less competitive with china and the rest of the

world. it is a very damaging tax to workers, consumers, and the idea of american competitiveness. host: this is grover norquist. he is the president of americans for tax reform here to talk about framework or the tax issues involved. the first call comes from andy in virginia. go ahead with your question or comment. caller: what i do not understand is why does c-span continue to give this salesman a platform? this guy has been on c-span countless times. host: we have invited him on as our guest. your question or comment? caller: mr. norquist, why do you feel that it is really necessary to basically not go after billionaire tax cheats? not go after people like jeff bezos, elon musk who make billions of dollars and are able to basically pay no taxes at all?

you are allowing these billionaire tax cheats to get away without paying anything. you come on the show and pretend that you are more concerned about the little guy being taxed when all you are doing is protecting those that are wealthy, those that continue to enrich you and at have continued to enrich you for years. host: that is andy in virginia. guest: i find it interesting that his first idea is i do not want to hear things i do not agree with. it is a free country. that is never happening. that is never happening. and your question is should the irs require the people who owe taxes pay it? yes. we talked earlier about spying on people. when they were doing it, looking at money that went in and out of

bank accounts, when they went after them they found less than 7% had any problem at all and one of the problems with just that they had not reported that they put in $10,000 because they had not put in $10,000 so it is not clear that there were any taxes owed. there was not a question on 94% of what they were looking at. they do go after many people who have nothing wrong. they look at folks to try and make sure that they pay their taxes, as they should. it would be helpful if the taxes were made simpler. that is true. that would be very helpful. as i mentioned earlier, under law, the irs is supposed to come up with ideas every year. for 20 years, they have not followed that law at the irs and made suggestions. you think they would be the people who would know what makes for complications and what makes for things different. as i mentioned, corporations are

not people. corporations pay salaries and if you take money from them as the biden administration wants to take $675 billion from companies. even if only half of that is taken out of pockets of workers as opposed to 70%, which i think 70% is a better number. that is $300 billion, $350 billion or less pay. that is directly hitting not people who make $400,000 a year, but the average citizen. that is why you high tax -- hide tax by attending the company is paying it. when they raise taxes at the grocery store, do you think the grocery store pays that or do you pay it when you buy carrots? you do.

or do the workers suffer because they cannot get paid as much because the store does not have as much money because biden took it. biden is not taking money away from the grocery store. he is taking it out of the pockets of the people that work at the grocery store and he is taking it out of the pockets of the consumers who buy things at the grocery store. host: let's hear from harold, brooklyn, new york. independent line. caller: this thing will increase the deficit by $3 trillion. we never heard a word from him. guest: are you arguing that i do not care about the deficit? the true cost of government, the deficit shows you that spending is so high that the politicians are embarrassed to take as much money as they are spending and they knew if they took as much money from you, so they borrow

in steps. the true damage the government does his total spending. that is the money that is taken out of the economy that is invested with a purpose to be sustainable. the private sector is sustainable growth because it creates more wealth than inputs and. that is how companies exist. that is how when people work, they produce more than they take out so there is enough money to build the factories as well as to pay their salaries. that is sustainable growth. when the government takes a dollar from you and gives it to fred, that is not sustainable. that is gone. when you put the money on welfare, that is gone. it is gone from you that paid it and just handed to the guy that spent it. what you really want to do is focus on total government spending. not a question of the deficit. you would rather not have a deficit? spend less. sometimes people say, i don't like deficits.

but they really need to say is i like to raise taxes on people. host: i think he was alluding to the fact that the previous administration, the tax cut, and what it did for the deficit. guest: the tax cut did a number of things. we have strong economic growth. the challenge with biden's proposal is the tax increases are designed to do tremendous damage to economic growth. these are a series of tax increases that come straight out of savings. when you look at how much money americans make, it is not that we are nicer than people in other countries. we have more investment per person. i am sitting here looking at all this wonderful machinery that allows this to work. when you're in a factory reducing something or computers, that is what makes people more productive. better cars, better trucks, better trains. those make people more productive and that is why you should get paid for. that is why you get paid more in

the united states than someplace else which has less investment, less capital per worker. these are taxes straight out of wife savings of people. this is straight out of your 401(k) and your ira. your 401(k) and your ira will be taken to the cleaners with these tax increases and that is what people were planning on retiring from. more than half of americans have an ira and/or a 401(k). some people have both. all of these tax increases go directly at what is in your life savings and it is very expensive. host: a republican from pennsylvania. this is harry. caller: hello. these billionaires make money by selling to consumers. number two, this is really important. right now, they are pushing a plan to give forehead $50

million in a year and all of the democrats are calling in and saying your children and grandchildren are going to pay for it. a lot of these people are brain-dead. they've gotta start using their head because we are going to pay for this and our children and grandchildren are too. guest: to be fair to some of the people who think that corporations pay taxes instead of collect taxes from workers, collect taxes from consumers in higher prices, and get money from people who invest their 401(k) and ira into corporations that have to pay them less, the tax collectors spend a lot of time trying to fool people into thinking that somebody else is paying these taxes. they tend to introduce taxes as on the rich. remember they were going to have a tax on the wealth. it was just going to be rich people. they backed off on that. taxing wealth is unconstitutional at the federal level. one of the things when the 13

states got together and said we will have a constitution, they were very concerned about the federal government's ability to tax. they were pretty specific about what they did and did not want. on taxes, they were very specific. you may not do this. you may do only this. that is why when the government said we want to tax people's income, they did try it, but it is not constitutional. but then they said we will pass a constitutional amendment so you can do it. you want to tax people's assets, their wealth, their assets, you have to get a constitutional amendment to do that, which they will not do so i think that is why they put that wealth tax aside. but they start by saying they will tax the rich. when the politicians tell you they will tax the rich, they have not finished the sentence. they're going to tax the rich first. then you. you may were member the alternative minimum tax that was put in in 1969 to hit 155

people. they had $1 million and they paid zero taxes. put all their money into municipal bonds which the federal government subsidizes by not taxing them the way they tax other funds. they were getting a lower rate. legal, but people said that is not fair. you have to pay taxes. they came up with the alternative minimim tax only to hit 155 millionaires. it was getting up to 30 million people when the republicans reduced it and largely got rid of it with the trump tax cut. it will be interesting to see if the democrats try and bring that back at the end of the day. that was a tax on rich people for 155 people that was going to 30 million people. the tax on long-distance phones to pay for the spanish-american war lasted 100 years after the war was over. it was only supposed to hit rich people because 150 years ago,

the only people who can make long-distance calls where people with $4000 phones. now everybody has a phone and the federal x ice tax that you are paying up until a couple of years ago was paid by every american high low income. it started as a tax on rich people. it became a tax on everyone. the income tax was put out, only 3% of the population was going to be hit. you had to make $11 million to pay the top rate of 7%. $11 million. there are some people who are watching who are paying more than 7% and do not make $11 million because the income tax was sold to people, it is just going to be the rich. host: this framework includes the tax for those earning $10 million and a tax for stock buybacks. guest: yes. they have a higher rate on rich

people, which will over time keep coming down until they hit more and more americans. that is what they have done every time they start taxing rich people and then they bring it down to get the rate down. it is the opening bid to get into your wallet. but they want to tell you, it is not you. it is the other guy. we are not taxing you today. later, not today. today we are hitting him. tomorrow, you will get it too. the stock buyback thing is sort of odd. if i want to invest in a company come of the one i like is the one that buys its own stock. if you have an extra $1 million, what would you do with it and you did not have a factory that you were building right away? if you invest in yourself, that tells you the company really trusts themselves. the reason that this is a stupid tax is because the democrats were unhappy that when billions of dollars that their policy is kept overseas, they were told

keep your money in japan, keep your money in china. don't pay taxes on it. you bring it back, we hit you with a massive tax. the republicans said we are going to go to the same system the rest of the world does. united states and ethiopia had a worldwide tax system. we tax what happens here. if you earn money overseas and you bring it back, good. bringing back. they will punish you for doing that. they are going back to punishing people who want to bring money back to the united states. not a very wise move. host: let me show you an argument that was made earlier this week by the illinois senator durbin on the senate floor. he talked about this idea of a wealth tax. i will show you what he had to say and get your response to it. [video clip] >> because we have too many families struggling in america and they are in property. we talk a lot about it. we see it. it is a shame that you cannot afford food for your children.

you cannot afford a roof over their heads, you are facing eviction. you cannot afford the basics to send them to school to buy good clothes and a new parachute. -- a new parachute. we say it is a shame, but now we have done something about it in the american rescue plan without a single republican vote. our tax policy helps working and lower income families, particularly with children. if we can do it, and i hope we can, we can engineer that tax cut to make it permanent, or at least for a number of years predictable. i just heard president biden in new jersey speaking about infrastructure and build back better. he said that in the state of new jersey, this child tax credit which we enacted without a single republican vote helping us has reduce child poverty in that state by 36%.

i bet it has done the same thing in my state if it has done it in new jersey. we get practical results that help working families. if we have our way in reconciliation, we are going to give the largest tax cut in the history of this country to middle income and working families, exactly the opposite of what the senator from kentucky just said. it will be the biggest tax increase in history. there will be a tax increase, i hope, for those who can afford to pay it. and that means the same people who got a benefit four years ago from the trump republican tax policy. [end video clip] host: that's the argument. what's the response? guest: just as he said, the people who benefited from the republican tax cuts for the millions of people who got jobs. we took unemployment down to 3.5%. now it is back up because of the policies of this administration and covid, but also tax

increases. that will continue to slow economic growth and keep unemployment down. under obama and biden, that was the weakest recovery since world war ii that this country has ever had because they spent money and they raise taxes and the economy grew poorly. the best way to help somebody -- crocodile tears from the senator who goes, we have poor people in this country. we had a policy under the democrats that spent over $20 trillion curing poverty. $20 trillion curing poverty. he made the speech -- the speech by lbj about how he was going to cure poverty by writing checks. the poverty rate has not gone down as a result of all that money that was spent and you do not help somebody by giving them the money instead of creating an opportunity for jobs. what americans want and what the

senator from illinois says he wants, he says he wants to help these people. they should get out of the way and let them help themselves, get a job, and move on. he is killing jobs with all of his taxes. illinois is an example of failure. it is a state people leave because people like durbin live there and politicians like durbin, democrat senate, democrat house, democrat governor, they raise prices, they drive businesses and jobs out of illinois and that is why they have the kind of poverty they have created in illinois that is completely unnecessary. we are talking at the federal level. i just had a conversation on the phone with people from nine different states, state legislators and governors, that are all moving to phase out their income tax. at the state level, they are doing the opposite of what the democrats are doing at the national. they want to raise taxes and put people on welfare and think they help somebody. we have seen that before. it costs a lot of money and it

does not help people permanently. right now, there are eight states with no income tax, no state income tax. there are a series of states, new hampshire will be, no income tax state. louisiana has just voted to phase themselves over the next 10 to 15 years to zero on the income tax as revenue comes in from growth. note dakota -- north dakota, the senate voted to get rid of -- the house voted to get rid of the income tax. west virginia, the senators voted. the governor supports it. we are working on the house. and our friends in mississippi. the house has voted overwhelmingly bipartisan. they got the income tax to zero. we are seeing at the state level, quite a number of states. arizona, the largest tax cut in modern history, taking the rate down to 2.5%. that will be very helpful. if you want jobs, illinois is

not the way to do it. durbin's tax-and-spend does not work. go to illinois and look at all of the u-haul trucks leaving that state. host: let me bring in vanessa from missouri, independent line. you are on with our guest grover norquist of americans for tax reform. good morning. caller: good morning. out of all this money, i do not hear anything about putting a stop to the enrollment panel for the drug plan. the enrollment penalty is $655 a year, even for the lower income seniors and disabled. people who do not qualify for medicaid are stuck having to pay this late enrollment penalty or they cannot have a drug plan. this was put into effect in order to force people, encourage

them to take out a drug plan. at this point, many people are either struggling to pay that penalty or they cannot have a drug plan. if you are extremely low income and you file for medicaid, then medicaid will pay that penalty for them and that does not make sense to me when they keep saying that medicaid needs more money. i am not asking other people, i'm not asking for more handouts. just stop taking what we already have. host: we will stop right there. mr. norquist, go ahead. guest: when the government gets into running programs, one of the problems is that all government programs are monopolies and monopolies never work well and they do not serve customers very well. reason why the free market works is that there are lots of grocery stores and lots of

barbershops and lots of people competing. governments make a one-size-fits-all program and age country of 330 million people, there is not very much one-size-fits-all in a country as large and diverse and wonderful as ours. how do you run a government monopoly better? hopefully give people more options and let people do things in different ways and have different choices. government runs programs poorly. host: democrat line from burlington, north carolina. gerald, hello. caller: hello. host: go ahead. caller: hello. i would like to comment. my phone is not working very well. host: we can hear you. go ahead with your question. caller: unless you make money

and all of the legislation is suggestion about corporations is that they pay taxes on profit they make, not on their expenses. in other words, what will be going on is when the tax on the corporations, they would be scaring that income with shareholders. it would not keep the corporation from operating properly. host: gerald from north carolina, thank you. guest: the private sector cannot print money. the government can print money. when individuals earn money and the government takes some of it, they did not have it -- they do not have it. when businesses create wealth and the government takes it, it is not there for salary. it is not there to hire new

people. government takes money that would otherwise go to consumers in lower costs or workers in higher pay. this is a real problem and it is one of the reasons why the series of tax increases that biden has his devastating. we do not know whether he was going to go back. he was talking about $100 billion in taxes on cigarettes and vaping so that people who want to quit smoking cigarettes and vape, they will price them out of that so they will have to go back to smoking. that is not a very kind thing to do in order to get cash. how desperate for money is the government that they want to tax people who are trying to quit smoking? the average smoker makes about $40,000 a year. if they go back to that, it was on biden's list of things they wanted to take your money for, that is a direct tax on lower income americans. some of the democrat congressman have pointed out to the president. maybe he will back off on that one. it is a huge attack they are

making on lower income people. this whole challenge we have now, we need more jobs, we need more income, and the government instead is going to tax people's jobs and take the money and hand people welfare, which is not a job. it becomes very problematic. as i started to point out, you can see what works and what does not. those states that are cutting taxes, income taxes and other taxes, are creating more jobs. those states that raise taxes and spend money on welfare are not doing as well. people move from new york to florida. new york is roughly the same size, a little smaller and population -- in population. the new york government is twice as extensive as the florida government. the roads work in florida, the school's work in florida. they spend twice as much running

big government in new york rather than more limited government successes in florida. part of the proof of that is people move to florida. they leave new york. it is helpful to see what works and what does not. people moving to states with no state income tax. people are moving to state that are reducing their state income taxes. there are some really impressive work out there at the state level. the democrats will pass a bunch of taxes, kill a bunch of jobs, slow economic growth. that is what they are going to do. at the state level, the governor of arizona, took the rate down to 2.5%. ron desantis in florida, a tax cut every year in that state. spending in florida has not gone up faster than people's wages. it is the only state that can say that. host: this is brian in ohio. public in line. caller: i will start by talking

about the federal spending. this administration is like an 18-year-old with a brand-new credit card. they want to raise the debt ceiling. you talk about inflation, it is at an all-time high. when you talk about taxes, you have biden saying that this administration will not tax people who make under $400,000 a year a penny more. the big corporations are not going to wake up tomorrow and say, i do not mind paying one extra billion dollars this year. what is going to happen is the price of the product goes up, the price of the sales goes up. does that matter how you cut it. you are paying more taxes. in 2024, we will do just like florida. i will do my part to make that happen because that is the only way it works. host: brian in ohio, thank you.

guest: one of the problems we have is the inflation that biden is driving up. people are saying the cost of gasoline spike tremendously. we had declines in the cost of energy because we were looking for more energy. biden has decided to destroy a pipeline which would have given as low-cost energy for a hundred years out of canada and we are all going to be paying higher prices when we drive to visit relatives on thanksgiving and christmas because biden decided that he wanted to destroy that pipeline and because he wanted to put people out of work who were working drilling for oil and then we had to go over and big saudi arabia to pump some more oil because he damaged our capacity and the price of oil was going up because of his policies. he is making russia and saudi arabia very rich. he is not helping the american consumer. when you do these things, you spend too much money, you raise taxes, you destroy infrastructure.

biden has destroyed more infrastructure than he has built when he took that pipeline down. he has not built anything yet. it really is a tragedy. of course, the middle class is getting kicked by biden's inflation which is at over 5% on an annualized basis. when he walked in the door, it was a little over 1%. this is all since he walked in. host: this is sterling in maryland. independent line. caller: good morning. mr. norquist, you have said a lot of misstatements today. we could say that you are openly misleading the people. guest: name one. caller: pertaining to the pipeline with canada that was not going to provide us with more -- lower oil costs. that was never going to enter the american market. pertaining to the states with income tax and moving the income

tax, you are mentioning state that all take heavily from the federal government for everything down to construction, including florida. i work in the industry. these states that do not have income tax, they also have very little social safety nets for their people. they can barely fix their grids in texas. they can barely provide clean water in louisiana. they can barely provide anything in mississippi. you point out a state like illinois or california and their taxes, but you can look at what they provide for their people and what they are capable of doing for their people that they did not require federal funds to do. these republican led states and legislatures are destroying their states, they are bringing down our country, and then you are going to brag about the trump tax cuts. the reason the income tax that you referred to before that you said it is going to hit the majority of america -- i apologize. i'm holding my daughter.

you said it would hit the majority of americans because of the class board that is being led by people like you against the majority of americans while you lie to them every day. host: the last call for this segment. mr. norquist, go ahead. guest: we know what works and we know what does not work. we list the states that are reining in spending and reducing taxes, particularly the ones that have gotten rid of the income tax. that is where the jobs are being created. those jobs are going to people who do not have jobs. i get a kick out of people who say they care about poor people, but they hate job creation, which is how you get not poor in america or anywhere else. jobs are being created in those states that are reducing taxes rather than those that are raising them. people are moving to those states that are reducing taxes, limiting the government. you can see what works and what does not between the various states. it is very helpful to look at

that, but you can also look at the united states. when we go to low taxes, we are successful, we create jobs. when we go to higher taxes, jobs were not created at the same rate. under reagan, it was not even close to reagan's job creation and wealth patient and income creation or trump. you can look at what works. raising taxes slows the economy. raising taxes takes savings out of people's 401(k) and ira. when you said you will tax corporations, you are looting peoples ira and 401(k). you are reducing the pay increases. you reduce the number of people who get to work and you raise the price of woods and services. raising taxes create more problems than it solves. our government could be more efficient, more effective, and less corrupt if it had less money and less access to other people's bank accounts. we do not need the government to start snooping on everybody.

the good news is the america people are overwhelmingly against all of these efforts. again, they have not said no. biden still wants to look at your bank accounts. pelosi still wants to and so does schumer. they will be back if you are not careful. host: the website for our guest organization americans for tax reform is atr.org. grover norquist is the president. thanks for your time. guest: thank you. host: for the next half hour, we turn to the question we started off with as far as the build back better framework released yesterday, a stalemate among the democrats that are debating as well as the republicans who have input. republicans (202) 748-8001. mcgrath (202) 748-8000. independents (202) 748-8002. you can text us at (202) 748-8003. we will take those calls when

"washington journal" continues. >> american history tv saturdays on c-span2, exploring the people and events that tell the american story. at 8:00 a.m. eastern, two discussions about american presidents. first, john pitney talks about presidential speeches and public opinion from the 1970's through the 1990's as communication shifted from network television to cable and then the internet. at 9:00 a.m., david o'connell examines presidential legacy and what factors contribute to making a successful presidential term. at 2:00 p.m. on "the presidency ," ron james discusses his book in which he discusses whether president truman established the president for the politicization of the supreme court.

exploring the american story. watch american history tv saturday on c-span2. >> sunday, november 7, a live conversation with author and new york times columnist on republican politics and conservatism in america. his recently released book talks about his five-year struggle with lyme disease. his other titles include, "privileged," and bad religion. join with your texts, calls, and weeds sunday, november 7 on c-span2. >> "washington journal" continues. host: for the next half hour, we will let you talk to us about the presidents build back better framework that was released yesterday. various debates over it and

attempts to pass a separate infrastructure bill by democrats not going anywhere. you can weave those into the conversation. (202) 748-8001 republicans. (202) 748-8000 democrats. independents (202) 748-8002. you can also text us at (202) 748-8003. as this is playing out, the president overseas. his first stop in several visits in rome. his arrival there, having a meeting with pope, also expected to address members of the g20 as well as heading to scotland for the world climate settlement -- world climate summit. cbs reporting that the president met with the pope for about 90 minutes, adding that the pope had a private meeting lasting about half an hour with president trump and 15 minutes with former president obama

. a picture taken with the pope and the president adding, that neither the white house nor press photographers were allowed into the meeting. christopher white also adding that these are more of the photos that are coming out from this meeting. from there, the president will address many world leaders including the french president. he will address the g20. he will ultimately talk about climate issues in scotland at the world climate summit. that is the plan for the president overseas today. we are talking about the agenda that was released yesterday, which the framework is now being debated that was released yesterday. if we go to "the washington times," if they have a box called winners and losers when it comes to the efforts being made. and it comes to winners, it

includes home care for the elderly, childcare subsidies, $150 billion for affordable housing, universal pre-k for three-year-olds and 4-year-old including a minimum tax on corporate profits, and $320 billion in clean energy tax credits. that is what is in the package. what is not currently in this framework, the carbon tax, the billionaire tax, free college tuition, a clean electricity standard, paid family medical leave, and the irs reporting for banks that you heard our previous guest talk about. there is more analysis in the papers this morning. but we will start in florida, democrats line. what do you think about this effort that was released yesterday as far as the build back better framework? caller: good morning. it is probably the best thing we could ever do. if we grow the economy from the bottom up like biden wants to do, everybody profits. the only problem with mr. norquist, it is not fast enough

because they are on this high of now. they want all their money now and they want more and more. as far as florida, i'm counting my days until i can get out of here. most of the people i know that live here are really tired of it. we have a governor that things -- thanks -- thinks, i don't know. he is definitely not for the children when he makes rules and laws that are killing our children and people will not say anything, we are in bad shape. host: in arizona, independent line, bob. good morning. caller: good morning. i have one thing to say. back in the 1930's when franklin roosevelt instituted social security, he said social security will never be taxed. is that correct? host: i don't know if he said

that are not, but go ahead. caller: my social security is taxed and it is a government take away. host: how does that relate to the current debate over this framework? caller: you cannot trust the democrats for what he says, ok. host: linda, deltona, florida. republican line. caller: good morning. there is nothing and there never was anything even in the full bill. there is nothing in it for people who do not have kids. i am 60 years old. the cutoff for kids is 17. i am 60 years old. i have an 18-year-old and a 21-year-old that still needs -- there are millions of us that are trying to support ourselves

and still two kids that cannot support themselves. how many 17-year-olds, 18, 19, 20 are financially independent? host: you get child care credit for your 17-year-old? caller: no, the cutoff is 17. host: there is a provision for medicare coverage for hearing services and the framework -- in the framework. caller: it is a financial windfall. if you have kids, it is raining money. the problem with giving people money, we don't know what they are going to do with that money. we don't know that they will spend it on their kids. the trump tax cuts, it was supposed to improve the economy. they did stop by backs. -- buy backs. it really did not improve the economy.

it depleted the income tax revenue and they did not put it back in the economy. host: that is linda in florida. as far as the final framework, two of the things that are in the column according to "the washington times" was allowing medicare to negotiate prices for prescription drugs. currently not in the framework when it comes to the release that was yesterday, bernie in st. petersburg, florida. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i support president biden's agenda. as far as who is going to pay for it, i only think it is fair for them to pay tomorrow. what is wrong with paying for what you have already gotten? thank you. host: what think should pay for it? caller: the ones that are reaping the benefits. the kids of the day -- today. they are the ones getting the

free college tuition. in the future, that is what it is all about. they should pay it back. host: let's hear from sharon in west virginia. independent line. caller: good morning. thanks for taking my call. my comment on the infrastructure bill is we can see that the democrats are holding it hostage. i live in a rural area. our roads have disintegrated to potholes from one end to the other. what are we supposed to do with a social program when we do not have roads to drive on? host: you are saying as far as yesterday, a separate infrastructure vote should have taken place? caller: absolutely. that should be number one. host: what you think about joe manchin's influence on this process? caller: well, i do have a comment on joe manchin.

i think that the democrat party left him. he did not leave the democrats. the democrat party left me. i am a lifelong democrat. my mother was a lifelong democrat. my husband has been a lifelong democrat. the democrat party left us. host: ok. that is sharon in west virginia. let's hear from allen in highland, indiana. republican line. caller: yes. i just started c-span a couple of days ago and i think it is a fantastic place of getting the truth out of people. what upsets me about biden, and i am really hurt by it, is biden is getting all this money away. in the long run, or third generation or second generation will pay for it. my question if i could confront

-- why is he increasing this money, giving to these aliens that are crossing the border. now i hear last night on c-span that he is going to give each illegal for $50,000 because of the separation -- $450,000 because of the separation whereas the soldiers overseas only have $400,000. you know it is not going to cost anything out of your pocket, and there he goes again lying. i am really hurt. i used to be a democrat until this decision came about and it shows you you have to be certain colors and things to get what you want. host: that is allen in indiana. the story he references was reported by "the washington

post" that the biden administration is in talks with families who were separated during the trump administration around $450,000 to resolve lawsuits filed on behalf of parents and children who say that the government subjected to lifelong psychological trauma, saying that the department of justice, homeland security, and health and human services are considering payments that could amount to close to one they in dollars per family. the final numbers could shift according to people familiar with the matter. also the families that crossed the border illegally from mexico to seek asylum in the u.s., including one parent and one child. many families would likely get more payouts according to their circumstances. if you want to read more about that, that broke yesterday. one of the debate that took place yesterday, taking a look at the build back better framework offered comments from democrats and republicans. one of those democrats, number

torres, talked about the provisions that the framework provides for children. here are some of her comments from yesterday. [video clip] there are currently 187,600 children benefiting from the child tax credit. that is only 2000 more children than mr. kevin brady. only 2000 more children in my district are benefiting -- and in your district, sir, that you're willing to vote against. for pre-k, there are 61,400 children in my district that are going to have an opportunity to go to school, to learn, in a

healthy environment. and just maybe in communities like mine where parents are leaving before the sun comes up and do not come back home until long after these children get out of school. -- school will have an opportunity to end up in prison in many cases. host: if you want to see more of the hearing, taking a look at the various debates going on i and -- going on and framework, go to our website, c-span.org. this is mac in chicago, democrats line. caller: good morning. host: good morning. caller: i just want to say when you are on the show a while ago, and they were sitting telling lies or spewing stuff he was

saying when president obama in office. no one stopped to these people from coming on your show or any other network. other people are going to believe this. that is the same with fox news or newsmax. if no one is there to strike down these lies that these people are telling, americas -- americans will believe things they are saying. host: during the segment, we aired several points that were in opposition to his own and several callers thoughts. we also expect people to be good consumers and investigate and analyze what people are saying, especially when we invite them on this program. but go ahead and finish your thought. caller: that's what i'm saying, pedro. i'm just saying people need to be able to strike down when people are telling american people lies. a lot of people believe in these things that they are saying,

which are not true. host: ok. we invite people with political stripes all across the board to let people who give their opinions on certain topics and people can take in what they are saying or not and analyze and investigate what they are saying as well. this is from melissa in las vegas on our independent line. caller: hi. i have a problem with a lot of the back better build. -- bill. i have a problem with the pre-k. i think they are way too young to be in a school atmosphere. at three years old, they aren't even able to wipe their own butts yes, so are there going to be teachers willing to wipe little kid's but it's for a living-- butts for a living? i think the biden/harris administration needs a reality

check because it is not reality. host: melissa their in las vegas. the weak website -- week website highlights a moment of lightheartedness between two senators, especially amongst what is going on in the current day. this is a story saying senator mitt romney got into the hall -- halloween season. he created multiple moments from a show by tapping a believe side like the one lasso hangs up in the locker room and it goes on to say that he presents a pink box to kyrsten sinema saying " she is one tough cookie." irregular brings -- regularly brings a box of biscuits. they question the optics of this, giving a key plot point in the season. there is more to that but that

is what is currently playing out amongst the other politics on capitol hill. between senator romney and senator sinema. you can talk about that and the build back better framework released yesterday. from california and sacramento, a republican line, this is douglas. caller: i believe the infrastructure bill should be passed. it should be passed and approved. on the rest of the stuff, i think it should be thrown out, assuming it won't suggest that maybe he should pay some taxes on china so that their materials and stuff are coming in to the united states and being taxed at the same rate it would have been if it was made in the united states. try to keep this equity stuff going between the countries. and keep everything going there. host: why should the bill pass

and in your opinion? caller: i think the united states needs infrastructure to keep going and working on it, but i think there a lot of things in there that does not need to be done. roads need to be fixed, airports and trains in that type of stuff needs to continue to go on. host: this is howard in north carolina, democrats line. caller: top of the morning to c-span. it is so ironic listening to these republicans saying what is good and what is not good. american people never really had a break or any kind of democracy for the people. i think for the people, we are getting for the very first time something that will really trickle from the bottom up. there's a lot of people out there, especially republicans, act as though it is not long-overdue. it is way overdue.

when they think about roads and bridges and they think about -- but they don't think about water pipelines with lead and it's, they don't think about how people are struggling trying to work and at the same time to daycare. don't they know much how much daycare costs? that is your income. i applaud biden and his administration on doing what they're trying to do and i pray they will be successful, both bills pass of the same time, because if not, i guarantee the ones for the people who are not passed, if they do it separately, it has to be together in order for everybody to build back better and make america great again to that? host: that is in salisbury, north carolina. from the washington post, their editorial under the headline "a step forward for the country." saying it is disappointed the democrats could not support

income and inheritance tax reforms that would brought -- would have brought in these programs. it is disappointing they failed to embrace the carbon cap or any enforceable clean energy standards that would ensure all of the green spending translates into greenhouse emissions reductions. but they finished by saying it is now time for democrats on capitol hill to put aside their differences and this package over the legislative finish line. this is imperative upon mr. biden's presidency. more important, it is something the country needs and deserves. from the washington post in their editorial section. the editors of the wall street journal, this is a jerryrigged budget framework, a reviewed section of their opinion page. saying despite anticorporate advertising, this represents the biggest expansion of corporate welfare in history. much of the 555 billion dollars for climate spending go to businesses for investing in electric vehicles, batteries,

transmission lines on top of tens of billions of dollars in green energy handouts and senate infrastructure bill. they say don't believe mr. biden's lucky that taxes will not go upper millionaires. small businesses will get slammed with a surcharge, a 5% surtax over income over $10 million and 8% above $25 million hit the windfall after cashing in stock compensation after decades of work. roger in trenton, north carolina, independent line. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i keep listening to the democrats talk about this wonderful bill. the bill is not wonderful. it is destructive toward americans people -- american people. the democrats seem to want to rack our entire economy, they keep talking about climate change.

why don't you talk about china? china spends more stuff into the air -- spews more stuff into the air then all the countries put together but china will not talk about climate change. the united states, we are already at the bottom with our climate change efforts. i think the whole world should get down on china's case to clean up their act. host: the president is heading to scotland on sunday to address the world climate summit among other leaders and economic views. andrew van dam from the washington post writes "as the u.s. economy grew at a disappointing 2% annual rate in the third quarter, as the delta variant piece, promising science suggests 2021 is on try to notch the fastest growth in decades. the coronavirus tour through most of the unvaccinated communities during july.

the product report of the serrated economist expectations from earlier in the year of continued rapid growth in the 6.3 and six point 7% seen in the first two quarters of 2021. lawmakers and economists are debating whether the report reflects a blip on the way, a boom, or something more if democrats close in on the deal over the 1.5 7 -- $1.75 trillion budget plan. that is from the washington post also in the washington post, a story by alex horton looking at vaccine mandates, particularly as it hits aspects of the military. reporting that up to 12,000 airport personnel rejected orders to get fully vaccinated against their coronavirus despite a pentagon mandate and official say it is too late for them to do so by tuesday's deadline, the first major test for military leaders whose august directive met with fines

on the segment of a forced -- of the force. 96% are partially vaccinated according to data in the air force but officials warned that barring a religious exemption, those that defy lawful orders are subject to punishment including possible dismissal from the service. kathy is next in louisiana. a republican line. caller: good morning. it is good to be able to voice my opinion this morning. it was very interesting in what he had to say. though he has not been my favorite person at all, and i hear people complain about democrats and i hear people complain about republicans, and i would like to complain about what constantly comes out of washington, d.c. it is an optical illusion to say this is an infrastructure bill

when you watch millions of people come in, basically a border invasion, and people are concerned about getting social welfare benefits. how can a country sustain social welfare benefits for that many people? don't you think americans -- doesn't everybody think americans are going to be affected by what is coming into the country? why is it that americans have to take the vaccine mandate and none of these people coming in are having to take a vaccine mandate. florida is getting beat up on a lot of things, but doesn't it look like their statistics or however you evaluate what is going on over there, the way he is handling it compare to other governors as far as the vaccine mandate goes? host: let us kathy in louisiana. let's hear from gail in new

jersey, democrats line. caller: good morning, pedro. host: good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. before i say anything, i have to commend you. you must have the patience of jobe, to listen to some of these callers. caller: we like them all. -- host: we like them all. this is the lifeblood of the program. as callers come in with the various points. but i'm sorry, go ahead. caller: what you hear -- i will not go into that. at any rate, i believe the bill should go forward. as a retired educator, i have seen how preschool helps the young children go further in life. it helps parents who need to work. we need preschool in order to

educate americans. unfortunately, i can tell a lot of us have not been educated. just by listening every morning to c-span. i don't miss a morning. host: as far as what was released yesterday, build back better, what do you think about that framework released? caller: i think that because they have cut back as far as the amount of money that will be spent, i think we need to start with what we have. i think we need to do that so that we can begin to move ahead. we are so concerned with china, we will continue to look at china and while we are looking at china, america is falling. i have to say this, america, please beware of wolves in

sheep's clothing. mansion and senator sinema are not democrats. host: gail in west berlin, new jersey. a line for democrats, charlie in indiana on our independent line. caller: thanks for taking my call. you do have a lot of patience listening to her. those that claim to be educated a lot of times are not educated. by giving these programs and spending taxpayer money, they are taking away from other people, from taxpayers. when did our taxes become a personal piggy bank for those in d.c.? this is ridiculous. what was the revolutionary war fought over? taxation with reppert -- without representation, i believe. that is what will happen here. host: from connie in louisiana, republican line. hello. caller: yes, sir.

without the spending obama wants to do, i would like to ask the state, especially louisiana, we pay taxes here on everything like a state tax and we already pay gas tax and road tax. what is this governor and other governors of louisiana doing with the money we have already paid for years? that was to rebuild our roads. host: what did you think specifically of president biden's agenda released yesterday? caller: i think it is terrible. absolutely terrible. host: police in california, a democrats line -- elise in california, it democrats line. caller: i was calling to correct a gentleman i called and made a statement that is not true about social security being taxed. social security is not taxed. so somebody again calling in and making a false statement and

maybe somebody is going to become 65 and think they will get taxed. you are not taxed on social security. for people saying the democrats are not doing a good job or not trying, it is scary because the democrats have always given to the people they -- people. they created medicare, unemployment, the veterans administration, federal housing, the disability program. the democrats all the only one they give to the people. the republicans do not give to the people, they give to big money. host: that is elise. thank you to all of you who participated in this segment. a new podcast takes a look at economic hardship in the united states and our hosts are going to join us next to talk about the podcast, the purpose behind it, and some stories they have heard. the host of going for broke, the podcast, will be joined by the

executive director of the economic hardship reporting project. that conversation is coming up on "washington journal." ♪ ♪ >> book tv every sunday on c-span2 features leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books. at 2:00 p.m. eastern, fox news host jesse waters left-wing activist and the policies they support in the book how i saved the world. then, ben shapiro talks about his new book, the a -- the authoritarian moment where he is saying the progressive left is pushing an authoritative agenda. then, bestsellers, book reviews, trends, plus insider interviews on book tv's new program about books. at 10:00 p.m. on afterward, in his latest book, inside corporate america's social justice stand, the author argues corporate america is signing

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continues. host: we are joined by guests that take a look at the topic of economic hardships in the united states. ray suarez is the host of the [booing] -- host of the "going for broke" podcast and alissa quart. thank you both for giving us your time this warning. guest: good to be with you. host: we have a lot of podcasts these days. i want to you to express in your own words what the purpose of this process is. guest: we as a group with the economic hardship reporting project took a look at a lot of the journalism going on about america's economic challenges. the economic challenges of everyday americans. there's not a lot of good coverage where people who are struggling with the current situation get to talk about themselves and their own

lives. they get talked about, analyze, and observed that rarely given the privilege of self-definition, to tell their own stories. going for broke takes a look at some of the severe downward mobility that a lot of workers have experienced in recent months and years and gives them the chance to explain to an audience what that is like, what it involves, in the workplace, trying to make ends meat, trying to make three weeks of money last tilde end of the month. the economic reporting project, i will let alissa say more about it, but it had a pool of wonderful storytellers able to tell very finely observed stories about what it has been like getting through pandemic times. host: miss quart, i will let you take it up there on not only what he said but what the project is.

guest: the project started in 2012 with the -- deciding that she did not want only the rich to write about poverty. she started this organization that let working-class and middle-class tell their own story. we have now gotten almost 1000 film makers and writers and photographers writing up and down from the richest to the poorest. i was realizing in the course of all of these years running this organization that we had these amazing stories. i wanted ticket what they sounded like. that is why i decided to do going for broke because i thought i want to hear what the grocery store worker, while her colleagues are chasing shoplifters in the store, what it is like in the store. i want to hear what it is like with the stories of the person who is being evicted. i also wanted to hear ray's

story and he tells his own story and the podcast. host: how do you find these people to talk to? how do you get people to tell you their stories? guest: we find them in a range of ways. they come to us and we are at economichardship.org. we have an address where you can send an pages. a lot of people came straight from the flush pile. that is what they call it in the business. then we find people from things like twitter storms or mass tweets. i will look on the tweets of veterans who are tweeting and look for really good writers on their or -- on there or small journals like blog sort of things. who is writing about their experience on income inequality firsthand? then there are a ton of layoffs. unfortunately, there is a shortage. there's a lot of hedge fund type buying up newspapers, trying to turn more than 20% profit on them who have laid off their

experienced reporters in different parts of the country. some of the people come to us. host: mr. suarez, being a broadcaster yourself, you are on one side of the mic and are pulled into this podcast and find yourself as the subject of one of the stories. guest: that was not the easiest thing in the world to do. for a long time, -- for a long reporter, the capital i key on your laptop is not when you use a lot in the course of the stories you tell. but i had experienced lengthy unemployment and also challenges with my health and the confluence of those two created hard times and i had to come from behind and remove that reporters often work out, arms, and talk about my own life. i think it is a good episode so i guess it worked out but alissa had to work on me a bit. host: when you made that decision, was it something you

did knowingly or did you come hesitantly to the idea guest: i had to think about it -- idea? guest: i had to think about it because it did not come naturally to me. i think there are so many career workers in their late 50's and early 60's who are experiencing the downdrafts of the labor market. when things get tough for man, the data tell a very discouraging story. there you are trying to prepare for retirement, take care of the obligations that remain during your working life, and incomes decline, tenure and jobs declined so you are cycling through jobs more quickly and it takes you longer once you are in your 60's to find the next one. i didn't tell my own story as much as telling it from the vantage point of a man in that time of life and what we are all experiencing. host: i want to invite the audience in to ask questions and tell their own stories as we go throughout the rest of this segment until 10:00.

if you want to ask our guest questions, we have divided the phone lines differently. if you are unemployed, call us at (202) 748-8000. if you would define yourself as underemployed, (202) 748-8001. for those of you who are employed, you want to give a story as well, one that takes a look at in the united states, (202) 748-8002. you can also text us at (202) 748-8003. alissa quart, you probably hear a lot of stories. the common themes through the stories, what would you say they are? guest: i think the common themes are first of all people who blame themselves for the condition they found himself in. we have a society that is very unforgiving to people who have economic struggle. i see a lot of that. i see a lot of self blame in people who tell their stories. i also see a lot of little things that could be done differently. we have a contributor whose mother could not afford hearing

aids on medicare and i think this is common in a lot of different programs. a lot of health insurances do not cover hearing aids. that little fix would make a huge difference. she would have been able to communicate with her mother during covid. those smaller things that when you live closer to the ground, closer to economic struggle, you just have your finger on the pulse of these experiences. that is part of what we are trying to capture. like fireflies, how do we capture that suffering, that struggle, and get it out? we copublished that with the washington post, and i so recently that some policy on hearing aids is starting to change. guest: mr. swat -- host: mr. suarez, same question to you. guest: the stories that emerge from our chapters tried to give a fleshed outlook at what is going on -- fleshed out look at

what is going on. one of our writers became homeless and tells a searing story about the difficulties of getting a good night sleep and how that works against you trying to get re-housed. one person put themselves through college with hopes of making a career in colleges and universities as an instructor about the academic market exploded and fell apart after the 2008-2009 recession. now that person works behind the register at a supermarket. one of our contributors was a star reporter for one of america's great old newspapers. the san francisco chronicle. it ended up having to tend bar, drive mover -- he happened to have to tend bar, drive uber, and the newspapers caught him even though he was a senior veteran member of his paper's staff.

so the stories are in there as individuals as a thumbprint but talking about some of the challenges individual workers face. host: when it comes to the format of the program, is it straight interview? how does it work and how do you put stories together? guest: it is a mixture of atmospherics. we visited washington heights, the neighborhood in the northwest side of manhattan island with the daughter of dominican immigrants who talks about where she grew up. it is a chapter on administrative burden, how there are challenges for people who are not english proficient have to fall somewhere and she became in effect her parents'social worker as she was trying to get benefits. one of our chapters talk about how difficult it is to go to the bathroom when you are living on the street and some of the

stratification's, the layer is that show up among working-class service employees when challenges come up. there is a serious policy in a lot of them. we go to the world these workers inhabit and also we talk to experts who can talk about how we could redesign some of these challenges and make these peoples' lives better. some of the problems in the design of where homeless people sleep and how paradoxically it works against them getting rehoused. so some really meaty policy questions and there but also moving first-person stories and serious exposing tori writing -- exposatory writing on the challenges they live with everyday. host: we are going for broke and, alissa quart, i should also

add nation magazine as a participant if i understand it correctly in this project. guest: our partner. guest: yes. our partner. host: this is frank in west virginia, considering himself underemployed. thank you for calling and go ahead with your question or comments. caller: in this infrastructure, why don't they let the american people vote on it? in north carolina and places like that, there are buildings down that are abandoned that used to be clothing factories and factories that we made here in the united states. congress goes in there and they bid on whatever they want and they do not ask the american people what they want or need. host: that is frank in west virginia. i suppose as a host and producer of these programs, one of the themes his i had a vision of the certain industry. that went away and now i have to

do something else. guest: yeah. that is the story we hear over and over again in our show. just because things went away does not mean there is not hope as pointed out. we do have stories of people who have found second and third chapters. they are not quite as exalted as the earlier time in their life but they are back on their feet. we see that again and again where these massive transitions have changed -- one of the subjects of our show, i called him the forrest gump of the american experience because he was a different -- in different places from being laid off to being an uber driver and working in a strip club. these are the cycles people are going through. they are not staying with one job for their entire career. host: in this case, this happened personally directly to you. guest: yeah. i have had to reinvent myself and i am now self-employed.

in part because a lot of the places that reached out to me after my last employer went belly up declared bankrupt, went out of business and paid off all of its workers, they just stopped calling back. they ghosted me. they acted as if they had never spoken to me in the first place. it happens. i make a living and i do ok but i have had to reinvent the way i work and who i work for. but those mills he is talking about, in a lot of cases, it would not just be a question of walking in, bringing in workforce and turning on the lights and going back to work. the equipment in those mils was dismantled and shipped to other places in the world where they are making t-shirts and cloth and toys and other things. it would take some time to readjust the last 40 years of reengineering the american economy and off shoring those jobs to get them back in places like west virginia and north carolina. host: from monica in california,

kentucky who is unemployed. monica, hello. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i am in a little bit of a different situation that i have no job. i have an adult child living at home with a grandchild because the economy is in the toilet. i have spent the last 3.5 years living in another state taking care of my grandson while my son served active-duty military. and it is really busy. the money financial situation, we are struggling. everybody says now hiring, now hiring, but there is low wages, despite everybody saying come work for us, we will pay you more, that is not the reality we are seeing here. it is really tough, and trying

to reinvent yourself when you do not have the money to put on your boots because you don't have boots to put on. that is where i am. host: monica, appreciate your story. mr. suarez, if you want to respond. guest: childcare in the united states is a crisis. if people are reluctant to go back to the workforce, or simply the numbers do not work when you write down what you will make friday versus what you will spend getting your kids taken care of, what is the incentive to go back to work? some people mocked the idea that childcare was in an infrastructure bill when the first version of the biden plan rolled out. it is a crisis. affordable childcare is distorting -- the lack of it is distorting the economy. it is distorting people's desire to go back to work. it is a big problem and one we are not addressing. guest: i found when i was

reporting my last squeeze where families cannot afford america, that middle-class life in the last 20 years has -- the cost of it has increased by 30%. that is costs. and i also think with childcare in particular, we have a nonsystem. we have a non-childcare system. the caller has other kinds of people they're responsible as well. that is why think these childcare credits should remain permanent. a care oriented universal basic income to help people either care for disabled loved ones, care for elderly, and care for kids. right now, what i think we are seeing with the biden administration, even if this does not get through the bill that is so stymied, what has happened is a window has opened. there is a window in which people are not going to be

laying back and saying paid family leave is an impossibility, childcare is an impossibility. i think that has been accomplished in the last year or so or two years, there is a recognition that we need these things as citizens. i say to the caller and i kudos to her for doing this work. host: this is monica in kentucky and finds herself unemployed. caller: i just told you everything. host: i apologize for that. let's hear from shawn in california that considers himself underemployed. good morning. caller: good morning, pedro. and the panel. i was laughing about the kentucky color because you still -- caller because you still had her on. i was so compassionate about your kentucky caller. it touched me heart -- my heart because there are some any americans that are going through tough things. for my own personal life, i am underemployed.

i have received my masters degree back in 2015 and i was not able to find a job after that. so i went back to one of my own fields in health care. i did that for $10.50 an hour with a masters degree in california, still trying to pay my bills. i work now in a case management position, which i'm still totally underpaid and under positioned. during the pandemic, i have been going through it a lot and hanging in there as an american. i have to still go to work, i had to be mandated to be vaccinated, which was fine. i just want to be a part of the help. and i had to pay the federal government $1360. when i hear a lot of people

going through things, i say to myself, they are going through more than what i'm going through, maybe this bill will have something for me down the line, but i do not see anything in the bill for what i call people like me, the lost population or forgotten population. i just wanted to voice my opinion a little and hopefully we will have something better and also i think we need more in that bill, more than $3.5 trillion, we need in the trillions of dollars to help us what -- us for what we have been going through. host: sean in california. thank you for the call. ray suarez, you can start. -- alissa quart, you can start. guest: i would like to ask questions, what are things helpful to you? host: the caller has gone. apologies. [laughter]

i will try to leave them on in the future. guest: just a common thing in the show, a number of people have secondary degrees and this is something ray and i talk about a lot, that that has become actually not the second act people are hoping for and it is sometimes the source is dead and anxiety where people are now getting these masters and certificates and these cooking diplomas and they cannot get second jobs. that sounds like the caller there has fallen into what i call the precarious middle-class and they are growing in this country. i know maybe ray has other thoughts about this. guest: she mentioned home health care work, and that is consistently some of the lowest paid work in america, which meshes badly with that we are in the middle of a title wave of demographic change.

we have one of the largest generations in american history moving into its late 60's and 70's, and soon, the 80's. yet we have not worked out a system where people can age in place and get the help they need at home without being institutionalized. home health care, which can be an early warning system to serious health problems, can be an early warning system to keep people out of nursing homes, keep people out of hospitals, thus saving society billions of dollars. we pay those people who do this critical work. what did she mention? $10.50 an hour which does not amount to much. the burden of this work incidentally falls disproportionately heavily on women and immigrants. host: while we have you here, because you are a longtime observer of washington and particular what has played out over the past weeks and months over the bill back better agenda, you have seen a lot of this go on -- how does this compare to other efforts by

democratic presidents to pass initiatives? guest: this one is stuffed with a lot of different moving parts, which gives legislators on capitol hill the opportunity to pick off pet peeves and because congress is so divided and because the republicans are refusing to give any help on passing anything, it falls on a divided democratic caucus, which is why really there has been so much paralysis around getting these initiatives passed. in the old days, you would find complementary members who had interests that were included in a big bill like this who would trade off their vote to either sweeten something they wanted or get something they did not want removed and thereby you would win their vote. there is none of that anymore. because you have 50 republican

senators who simply will not vote for the bill under any circumstances, which means it falls entirely to democrats, an odd situation, and because there is divisions in any big caucus, you get this kind of odd situation with a democratic senate, a democratic house, and a democratic oval office unable to move democratic legislation. host: what do you think about the power of progressives and they have paid on not only senate but on the house side over this process? guest: i think as alissa mentioned, the fact where having any of these conversation -- in the old days, any infrastructure bill that mentioned human infrastructure, investing in education or investing in care for seniors and childcare would have been simply not even made it into the proposal stage. this one has gotten pretty far down the road before people started to pick it apart. i think our ideas about what

infrastructure consists of have to broaden a little bit. we have to live in this country. in order to live, we need things that answer different parts of our common lives. the fact we have to do it in legislation is not because people are dying to have government pay for everything, it is that our private lives have not offered a solution. the reason that home health care workers are so poorly paid and have such a critical job is not because there is a system that decided this, it is in the face of there being no system, which is what we are dealing with now. host: alissa quart. guest: that is absolutely right. the human infrastructure, the care of economy, or whatever you have it, the fact that is given space, even though it will need a granite wall of republican opposition and turncoat democrat

opposition, i think we need to keep our eye on that. i'm not sure how long ago but hillary clinton said about paid family leave, we are not ready for that. when he asked her about that. this is happening in the near 10 years, this transformation of the understanding that america should look like other developed nations in the world that has some kind of structure. it has given me hope, the level in which the progressives were able to get their messaging out there and sort of influence in terms of language and i think human infrastructure was originally an bernie sanders, who is in my book too, but it was a term bernie sanders used. i think these are the ways we are going to lead to change. it might not happen this time but it will happen next time. host: the podcast is going for broke and we are joined by ray suarez and also alissa quart of the economic hardship reporting project. michael in richmond, indiana. you are on on our unemployed

line. caller: yes, sir. i just recently got awarded disability in june of this year, i am 52 years old and i cannot work anymore. the job i was at, the guy did not take out taxes anyway, so it has been a hardship. my wife is 72 and she is in bad health, knee replacements, everything else, getting ready to go in for another one. they put me on medicare and i am starting to get all of these bills in here. the money that we give them, they cut her all the way down to $120. i called my bank this morning and we got six dollars in there. and they owe me over $14,000. i have been trying to get it. they said you will get it after your first social security payment. i called yesterday, and it has been five months. they said i would have to wait another month.

i do not understand the concept of our leaders wanting to hand out all of these money to all of these people. we have worked our whole lives and paid into this. what would you do if you went to your bank and said i needed $500 and they said well you better get a lawyer and fill out this piece of paper? you would close the account and get rid of the bank. that is our money. when we cannot work anymore, we depend on edge. host: that is michael in indiana telling us his story. mr. suarez. guest: a lot of people, when they're asked by public opinion researchers, how long do you want to work? they will give a number, and age , but -- an age, but the majority of americans do not work until the age they planned. there are various reasons why, often illness and truths, often chronic pain that comes from their own working lives, shoulders that ache, backs in constant pain, knees that give

out. we have any idea that we have to work longer in order to support ourselves in the life that is left after full-time work, but the mechanics of the systems we have set up to do that, as we heard from our caller in indiana, they do not often serve us well. disability is something that is resorted to by a lot of -- especially men -- across much of the country that has been dein dustrialized. there is a broad swath of south into the midwest where the primary employer is gone and a large share of the men, older men in the working population, are on disability. we do not treat chronic pain well. we keep coming up with white-collar middle-class answers to blue-collar problems. so we say how will we make social security last longer? it looks like it will only be

able to pay $.75 on the dollar in the mid-2000 20's and mid 2000 30's. the bland answer is we will have to tell people they have to work longer. that is not an answer. when you get out of bed in the morning, your shoulders ache, your back aches, and your knees are killing you. the idea that let have you work another four years or five years , not an answer for everybody. guest: there's a difference between working to live and dying to work. that is part of what ray is talking about where we deny people's bodies and the natural organic process of aging when we are asking them to continue to be economically productive citizens. i was also thinking back to our show when i heard you talking about the form because we have a whole show called administrative burden where one of the subjects of our show was having

trouble getting unemployment money for her father and he could not fill out the forms. he was not a native english speaker. so the whole level of complexity, what we discovered when doing the show, was a lot of the burdens were put in place to make it harder for people to get the money. so it's not an accident that many of these mechanisms, the caller mentioned medicare but there are other mechanisms especially targeted at lower income people, that the forms are really onerous and are there to make it harder. there is a whole historical tradition going back to the 1930's to where you create a welfare state but made it difficult for the people to obtain the goods they were deserved. so that really interested me, that particular episode. you too, ray, right? guest: a lot of this is done out of contempt. a lot of it is done out of condescension, and a lot of it is done out of the sense that when you sit in the state capital and vote to approve a

program, since we are "giving you" this money, we are going to make it hard for you to get it. if you want it, you will work hard enough to get it. it is maddening. host: ray suarez and alissa quart are our guests for the next couple minutes. at 10:00 today, we will take you to a hearing featuring the special inspector general for afghanistan talking about his suppressions, in light of recent events in afghanistan. he has been a frequent guest on our program but that starts at 10:00. you can see on c-span, c-span.org, follow along on the c-span now app. we go to danny in arizona who considers himself underemployed. thank you for calling and go ahead. caller: good morning, pedro, and thank you for taking my call. i have a couple points here. for one, i am a retired guy. ok, i cannot afford to have an

mri for micronic back pain -- my chronic back pain but these illegal aliens can come in and joe was thinking about giving them $450,000 each. where's is the justice in that? it does not make any sense. joe and the democrats are running this country into the toilet. that is my point. thank you, sir. host: i will let either of you start with that if you wish. guest: no one would be more surprised than undocumented people that they are about to get $450,000 each. that is simply not happening. guest: that's not happening. guest: i don't know if i can elaborate on that anymore. that is not happening. that does not exist. host: let's go to our next caller, larry, in tennessee. caller: good morning, sir. just a comment. i think a very large portion of our problems in the economy is our trade policy. and it has been for probably two

decades. the one that really stands out is the fact that our trade policy with china. corporate america is the real problem. we continue to kick that around like china is a bad situation with us. it is not china, it is corporate america. we made the trade policies, and that is why we have a substantial amount of unemployment in this country. it is our legislative bodies along with corporate america. it is very problematic. host: thank you, caller. ms. quart, go ahead. guest: they are not wrong. starting in nafta or before and after, we have had trade policies that have not benefited american workers. we tend to indeed demonize other nations when we should be looking at the corporate sector that is benefiting most from getting companies sending them

to mexico and business in china and not keeping as much business as possible here. he is not wrong. host: as far as the trend you have probably seen reported on because of covid, people willing to leave jobs they have to go to better paying jobs or being able to maybe now ask a better rate because employers are -- how does that factor into the reporting on this and the stories you tell? guest: you mean the fact that there his now -- there is now this great resignation what they are calling it? host: correct? guest: i think the great resignation is showing -- it is another way workers are showing resistance. they say this is a terrible job, especially in gig workers other professions, people are not protected, especially special orders. it is hard to forget that. it is hard to say i want to go back and earn even $15 an hour or $20 an hour when i was exposed by my employer.

i think you're seeing people who got cynical about the whole employment situation here and they know that they are in the driver's seat. i think it is good in a sense that it is putting employers on warning and raising wages. host: mr. suarez? guest: before the pandemic, you could look at a newspaper or turn on your local tv news and see an employer that had listed 45 to 50 jobs with a line of 800 people stretching out from their front door in order to apply. that was a sign of a certain kind of need. what we are seeing now with them having to up the ante and also address the conditions is a different kind of power dynamic. so yeah, people are realizing that job is going to have to be a better job in order for me to give my life to it. the power dynamic between

employers and workers has not changed entirely, but if there is a couple more chips on the employee's side of the table, maybe that is not a bad thing. host: our guests are with us for a few more minutes. this is romney in texas on our employed line. hello. caller: hello. this is one of the most ridiculous conversations i've ever heard in my entire life. you are responsible for your children, you are responsible for your bills, you are responsible for everything you do in life. i live in an area where people are selling their homes because they cannot afford their house payment because they are living beyond their means. there are some any things to cover on this. it is ridiculous. as soon as people realize that if we become more responsible we will have less problems. you are talking about giving up -- giving people an income, talking about free health care.

your health is your responsibility. all of these are your responsibility. you need to own up to them. if you'd cannot afford something, you don't buy it. i drive a 2011 pickup truck because i do not need to buy a new one. guest: would you say that if you cannot afford to have cancer, you shouldn't get cancer? would you submit that? caller: no. see, you're going to the extreme. guest: that's not an extreme, that is a common experience in people's lives. caller: my dad had cancer and he didn't pass away because he could not pay his bills. he had a job where he had health care. i am self-employed. i buy my own insurance. i go out and if i do not sell, i do not eat. i have been working my whole life since i was 13 years old. i have never had an issue because i have always been able to live within my means. host: you made that point already so we will leave it there and let our guests respond. mr. suarez, you can go first.

guest: yes, people should not live beyond their means and they should be careful about their finances. but some of the people that we are talking to in our series, they did not do anything wrong, they did not do anything irresponsible, they just felt the downdrafts and declines in the economy in a way that left them having to cope with downward mobility. they are doing it. listen to the series. not saying people are not responsible or should not be responsible for their lives. we are saying the structures that surround us, to cope with some of these things, should work better for the people that they are established to work for. i think that is a pretty basic, simple proposition. if you are paying a third of your income in taxes, that is something you as a consumer should want as well. host: alissa quart. guest: you will see when you listen to going for broke, which

you should subscribe to, is each one of the subjects have one bad thing that happened. i think the caller has lack of empathy really for this fact that in human experience, people get sick. people have mental illness, people lose their job, people have nasty divorces. people can't get a job. there's a whole set of things that can go wrong, and that is usually just one big thing, that cascades into many little things. also how we can get back out of it. we don't want to give handouts. we want to see redesigning innovation keeping people from going to the bottom. guest: it's called going for broke and you can find it o