host: lawrence gostin joins us now. he is the author of the new book "global health security: a blueprint for the future." i want to start where we ended the last conversation on the issue of vaccine mandates. do you believe vaccine mandates in the workplace are legal and appropriate at this point the pandemic? guest: they are legal, ethical, and essential for getting us back to normal. we have had a history of

requiring vaccinations from the beginning of our republic. george washington required troops to get a smallpox inoculation. the supreme court has twice upheld compulsory vaccination. it boosts and maintains high unitization -- immunization coverage, which protects us all. host: what are your thoughts on sincerely held religious belief as a reason to not get the vaccine? guest: there are certainly some people who have sincere religious beliefs, but many people who try to get exemptions for religious beliefs really do not have genuine ones. i say that from experience and from knowing what goes on around the country. many people first try medical exemptions. that fails and they try

religious. we tend to get new affidavits from the same texas church for everybody who has not even met the individual. many of these are not authentic. the pope himself has urged all catholics to be vaccinated. the truth is there is no major religious practice that i know of that as its core is against vaccination. the key value is life, and vaccines save lives. there will be some sincerely held beliefs, but very narrow. host: tomorrow, the advisory panel at the cdc is meeting to discuss covid-19 vaccines in children five to 11 years old. what are your expectations for what happens in the meeting tomorrow? guest: it is almost certain the

cdc is going to follow the fda decision to authorize this. the cdc will then recommend it, and i expect the vaccine for children age five to 11 to be rolled out in the coming days, certainly this week it will start to be sent to pharmacies, pediatricians' offices, family practitioners. there will not be mass vaccination sites the way we saw early on. we will try to do this with local pharmacies. >> should we be vaccinating children right now, children at a lower risk of severe covid at a time when worldwide vaccination rates in other countries are a fraction of where we are? should we concentrate more on the global effort of those most

at risk? guest: let's stick with the united states first because we have already started to do boosters for the elderly and now we are rolling it out for pediatric. for the u.s., i would like to do that for now. it makes sense to have a five to 11-year-old vaccine. it is true that young kids have a lower risk of serious z's, but many thousands have gotten very seriously -- serious disease, but many thousands of got very seriously sick. about 100 kids of that age group have died, which makes covid among the 10 leading causes of death among that age group. getting covid is more dangerous than getting the vaccine to these young kids. it has multiple advantages. it protects our children. that is the most important.

it also protects their parents, their grandparents, their families, their communities. at the same time, it gets us back to normal a lot quicker and insurers educational continuity -- ensures educational continuity. host: dr. lawrence gostin with us until 10:00 a.m. eastern, phone lines split regionally if you want to join the conversation. (202) 748-8000 if you are in the eastern or central time zones. (202) 748-8001 if you are in the mountain or pacific time zones. i want to focus on some comments last week -- i guess two weeks ago during the fda advisory panel when they met to consider vaccines for children.

there were comments by dr. eric rubin of harvard university that caught the attention of folks who are concerned about vaccinations for children so young. this is a minute from the end of his comment from that meeting. [video clip] >> we hear it is a personal choice. if i had a child who was a transfer recipient -- there are kids who should be vaccinated. the question of how broadly to use it is a substantial one. i know it is not our question. i do think it is a relatively close call. as dr. leavy just said, it is going to be a question -- we are never going to learn how safety

vaccine is unless we start giving it. that is the way it goes. that is how we found out about complications of other vaccines. i think we should vote to approve it. host: to those comments that we are never going to learn about how safe it is until we start giving it. guest: it is a valid and fair point. i have been reviewing the data carefully. the fda advisory committee voted unanimously with only one extension to authorize this. it was not a close call. the overwhelming majority of scientific opinion is it is far safer and better for children, for families in our community to roll out this vaccine for everyone as opposed to risking

getting covid. the delta variant is so contagious that one day or another everybody is going to get it. it is better to be vaccinated young, like with other childhood immunizations. here is where i stand. you just heard i am absolutely in favor of vaccine mandates but i would not mandate the vaccine for children yet. the reason is i do want to see more long-term safety data. we know these vaccines are safe because billions are being given around the world safely to my but children are different. they are not young adults. they have a different biology. i want to see whether there are any adverse effects that emerge.

we are not expecting them other than those we know about, certain cardiac events. the cardiac events are really very rare. they are resolved quickly. the truth is that you are more likely to get a heart condition if you get covid than if you get the vaccine. host: professor lawrence gostin with us with georgetown university law center institute for national and global health law, the director of that center and the author of the book "global health security: a blueprint for the future," that book coming out since we had you on in the summer. what is the blueprint you lay out? guest: i started writing this book about six years ago, well before covid. in it, i predicted there would be a pandemic.

my wife sometimes joked with me i have got the pandemic i have always dreamed for, but that is not true. there are many existential threats we face. there are laboratory accidents, bioterrorism. we have antimicrobial resistant viruses so that even our best antibiotics are losing their impact. a virus can spread around the world within 72 hours after it first presents. we have all of these existential threats, but we have answers for them. we have seen good research and development can get vaccines quick. we can get them even quicker next time. we can get treatment quicker next time.

we need more robust health systems so we can better detect and respond. we need to prevent the so-called zoo not it -- zoonotic spillovers by separating animals , by regulating or banning wet markets and live animal trade, by preventing deforestation and other tools. we can also steward our antiviral medications better so viruses and pathogens do not become able to evade our best medicines. there is so much we can do to make our world much safer, but the truth is we have lurched from panic to complacency and back to panic. i hope covid teaches us some

hard lessons. host: "global health security" is the name of that book. professor lawrence gostin is our guest taking your phone calls. caller: i appreciate the professor's perspective. i am double vaccinated myself. many children, up to 40%, have been infected already. in the pfizer study we saw no reinfection's of those who had previous infection. the study was not large enough for me to expose my children to a vaccine if they have already had the virus. i am going to have them check for anti-bodies first. another concern i have is the ramifications of continuing to move the goalposts. i am in a county with five to

seven preventable cardiovascular deaths per day, one or less for covid. where do we draw the line? there are 400 or so sudden infant syndrome deaths per year contributed to smoke. where do we draw the line? the virus is going to be endemic. it is going to be with us and we have to let it fall and the risk spectrum and realize the risks of continuing to invoke fear when the relative risks to other risks of death is higher at this point. host: professor gostin? guest: you are making a lot of reasonable points. all of the data we know from adolescents and adults is if you have had covid you could have -- it can confer fairly robust immunity or it might not. at the same time, what we know

is if you are vaccinated after you have been infected with covid you really have quite robust protection. the vaccine is extraordinarily safe and effective. pediatricians around the country , public health professionals and experts, the fda, the cdc, all our trusted public health agencies are recommending a covid vaccine for children age five to 11 whether or not they have already been infected with the virus. that is sound advice. the only reason i am not recommending a mandate, and i am not, is because i want to see longer-term safety data. once the fda fully licenses it on the basis of longer-term safety data -- the trials had

few participants in them. we need to have more understanding. from what we know now, we should be approaching parents. get your kids the vaccine. it is going to make your child safer and everyone around her safer. host: this is steve. caller: good morning. i have two questions. my first goes to the fact that in the declaration of independence i am pretty sure it starts with we the people. the american people, me included, are fed up with unelected bureaucrats telling us what we should do. if this is so important and crucial to the american health system, congress and the senate should pass a law. the president should sign it. then we can all get vaccinated because we are being represented

by our voted in individuals representing we the people. speaking of democrats, the poster child is dr. fauci. why is it now we have the nih admitting we did fund with u.s. taxpayers -- we the people paid to the chinese to do research on covid vaccines. guest: those are two separate questions. let me start with tony fauci, a close friend. i have known him for 30 years. this is a sincere, decent, honest, hard-working, super intelligent, honest person. he did not deceive the american people. from what he understood, there was no gain of function research in the wuhan to due to virology

-- institute of virology funded by nih. in terms of we the people, the declaration of independence does say that. our constitution -- the federal government has no authority to mandate a vaccine. it is basically at a city and state level. president biden's orders are based upon the federal workforce and contractors. and the occupational health & safety act. all of these things were actually part of the democratic process. nobody is suggesting an autocratic or extralegal form of vaccination mandate. mandates have to be lawful and thus far the courts have upheld them almost uniformly. host: about 10 minutes left with professor lawrence gostin this morning. dr. anthony fauci will be on

capitol hill this week testifying before the senate health committee. that we are airing on c-span3 at 10:00 a.m. eastern thursday. today in about 10 minutes, the supreme court will hear two oral arguments on the texas abortion law, the first challenge brought by a group of health providers, the second by the justice department. that is getting underway beginning in about 8.5 minutes. we are going to air it on c-span two this morning. you can also listen to it on the new c-span now app and our website. until our program ends at 10:00 a.m. eastern, your calls with lawrence gostin. this is melissa and iowa. -- in iowa. caller: i have a question for your gentleman on here. he said his wife said he finally got the pandemic he wanted and

all he has wanted. how do all these folks in 2015 know that if president trump got elected there was going to be a pandemic? guest: first of all, my wife was just joking, literally a joke. nobody wished the pandemic on anybody and we have all suffered. so have i. it has been a horrible thing for the world. we all knew there would be a pandemic that would occur, but nobody knows when. there will be another one coming up beyond covid. we cannot tell you whether it is going to be next year or in 100 years. biology and ecology and nature do not follow political cycles. nobody knew who would be president. these things just literally form

in nature and have an unexpected leap. what probably happened -- we do not know for sure because china is not allowing us to really investigate on the ground whether it was a lab leak. most likely what happened was there was a bat in southern china in one of the batcave's that had a novel coronavirus somehow and bit an intermediary animal sold in the wuhan wet market. we then had an outbreak in wuhan that quickly spread to hubei province and the rest is history. these things just show us that mother nature is awfully powerful and we have to respect her and prepare for those kinds of events. host: to new york, this is michelle.

thanks for waiting. caller: i have been a health care worker for 21 years. i am vaccinated. my question to you is in the hospital right now there are 10 out of 12 patients who are vaccinated in the hospital and now they want us to give this vaccine to our children five and older. i do not know if i would be able to as a health care provider do that seeing the ramifications for people who are taking the vaccines. 10 out of 12 patients in the covid units are vaccinated people. as someone who is vaccinated and i have to make a choice for my child, i have to know where i would get the science because i called to the cdc. i called the fda. them saying we need to give the shots to get the information seems like a double edged sword because we are going to give them the vaccine and then get the data. that is confusing to me.

host: michelle, you're from new york. then your times today taking a look at -- the new york times today taking a look at comparisons of those who are vaccinated and unvaccinated at the rate at which they were infected by the delta variant and at which people died of the delta variant. among those fully vaccinated people, they were six times less likely to catch the delta variant. among unvaccinated people, they were 12 times as likely to die of the coronavirus as a fully vaccinated person as well, some of the comparisons there. it was 12 deaths per 100,000 among the unvaccinated at one point in august. guest: you have answer the question beautifully. the truth is vaccination is not a bulletproof shield. you do have some breakthrough

infections and some people who are particularly immune compromised, who are very elderly, sometimes they can get back in the hospital. sometimes they can die. for everyone from age five to eight 100, if you get the vaccine you are going to be far better protected than leaving yourself vulnerable to the disease. this is a very serious disease. it is for every age group. i do not want my child, my granddaughter, my grandson to get covid. i would much rather they get vaccinated and keep safe and have them in a safe school and safe family. host: dr. lawrence gostin is the author of the book "global health security elections.

this is hosted by "the washington post." >> good te