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[fireworks explode] ♪ host: decompensation -- a conversation now about electric vehicles. joe britton serves as executive director of the zero emission transportation association. first, explain who the association represents and what your goals are for the future of the u.s. auto market. thank you. zeta, which we call the zero emission transportation association. we are 60 companies. charging companies, critical supply chains, battery recyclers, utilities providing leadership in this space. our goal is to have every vehicle sold by 2030 b and ev an obvious leave there is -- be an ev, and obviously we can address

the public health impacts of pollution and many communities. we want to wish everybody a happy thanksgiving and we appreciate you focusing on transportation and we want everybody to be safe out there this weekend. host: here is where the market is now, or at the end of the third quarter of 2021. 107,000 ev's sold in the third quarter of 2021, tesla accounting for the lions share. ev's, hybrids and plug-in hybrids accounting for 10% of total vehicle sales in that quarter. how do you get to 100% by 2030? guest: you saw over the last year, total vehicle sales dropped by 13%, but ev sales increased 52%, so there is a lot of scaling to be done and we need to provide strong consumer

incentives but we are making progress, and i think ultimately if you think about the different classes of vehicles. light ev for your retail consumers, even those classe tractor-trailers, it makes good business sense and everybody can be better off. that is what we are hoping to achieve with the big and for stricter bill that was signed into law this past week. ultimately going forward, the build back better agenda would have strong tax credits for vehicles and charging infrastructure. host: how much is in the infrastructure law for electric vehicles, charging stations? explain how this bill benefits you when it comes to getting to that goal? guest: $7.5 billion for charging stations across america. that money goes to communities and site hosts and it will make a big dent in being able to convince consumers that they can go and travel for thanksgiving.

they can go about their day, go to soccer practice or church or work and not worry about when and where they might need to charge. it is going to be a huge down payment and we think president biden's 500,000 vehicle charging goal will be easy to meet we look forward to working with the administration to make sure we do that smartly. host: let me get to some phone numbers, if you want to join this conversation. it is a little different this morning. (202)-737-0001 if you are in the eastern or central time zones. (202)-737-0002 if you are in the mountain or pacific time zones. a special line for electric vehicle owners, we want to hear from you this morning. (202)-628-0205. go ahead and start calling in. we will get you with us. mr. britton, take us to the build back better act, as it continues to move through congress. what is in it specifically for

ev owners? guest: the base driving incentive is the $7,500 incentive for consumers to buy an electric vehicle. what is really important as part of this bill is making that point of sale. you don't need to wait until the end of the year to get the value on the credit. we think that will be the primary driver for light duty vehicles. the other important thing is there is a used ev credit. 70% of the market is not in the market for a new car. those are used car sales. as we saw more and more new ev's, they will be turning over into that secondary market and that will give more ash that will get more americans exposed to let fixation -- to electrification. it is important to expose those used car market consumers to ev's. there is also commercial and medium and heavy-duty incentives.

this is for your fleets or utilities. there is a strong 30% investment tax credit for those vehicles. we are also expanding the charging infrastructure tax credit. if you are a truckstop operator, a grocery store, you can take a 30% itc on the cost of installing charging infrastructure in your community. i think it is a strong case, not only for the tax credit because consumers are going to shop with their dollar and they will go to those places where it is easy to charge. that is the future of charging. we will be charging while doing other things in our life. as those retailers adjust and offer a charging infrastructure as part of their amenities, whether it is a grocery store or workplace or church, i think that will make a huge difference not only for those retailers but for the consumer. host: we talked a lot about joe manchin lately. joe manchin had some comments about this ev tax credit in the build back better act, as quoted

in the automotive news article from earlier this month. this is what he had to say about it. when i heard what they were putting in this bill on the ev tax credit, i went right to the sponsor, the democrat from michigan and i said quote, this is wrong. this can't happen. it is not who we are as a country. it is not how we built this country. the product should speak for itself. we shouldn't use everyone's tax dollars to pick winners and losers. if you are a capitalist economy, you let the product speak for itself. hopefully we will get that. hopefully that will be corrected. that is what joe manchin said. what are your thoughts on that? guest: i don't think he was speaking about the ev tax credit. i think he was referring to what the house put in which was a specific additional incentive just for collective bargaining manufacturers. that is what he was from early concerned about -- that is what he was from early concerned about -- primarily concerned about.

i will not speak for joe manchin. we have a chance to set our automotive industry apart and we don't have to look that far back to see what happens when we get our lunch eaten. 2008, we were not making the most efficient vehicles and those foreign vehicles became really attractive and they overtook the market. this is where the automotive industry is going and this is our chance to rustle away some superiority that other economies have made in this place. china has invested 10 or 15 years worth of industrial policy to ensure they are making progress. this is our only chance to rustle away that's appear yorty and a role -- and rely on american manufacturers and workers to make the difference. host: plenty of calls for you, joe britton. up first is scott out of michigan. good morning. go ahead. caller: thanks for taking my call. i want to know why they don't put windmills or solar panels on

charging stations, so they don't have to hook up the electricity. guest: actually they do. i have not seen windmills but plenty of them have solar panels equipped as part of the charging station. i know ev go is a charging company that is doing it. especially those level two chargers, the one that have the same levels of service for electricity that your dryer would have. many of those are equipped with solar energy, certainly in particularly rural areas. i think you will see more consumers pairing their own residential use with charging infrastructure. certainly when you talk about vehicle to grid and insularity services we can use to make the grid more efficient, i thicket is a great idea. i know we have been making progress. host: what is the average time it takes to charge an electric vehicle? guest: it depends on the charger. there are three levels of charging. one is your level 1 charger

which is essentially a fancy extension cord. level two is that same level of service you would plug in for a dryer, and then you have those direct-current fast chargers which could be up to 200, 350 volt chargers. if you are talking zero to 100 and it direct-current fast charger, can get that done in probably 40 to 45 minutes. in the main use case, you will never go from zero to 100. you are probably going from 80 to 40. if you travel across the country like my wife and i did, we never were at the zero to 100 charging. the charging never held us back. we would stop for lunch or coffee breaks and made the consumer choice to stop where there was charging infrastructure and it never held us back. host: on those level 1 chargers, just a people have comparison, what is a zero 100 -- what does

a zero to 100 charge take? guest: you will get about four miles of range and our. for a level two, you can get about 25 miles of range per hour. with a direct-current fast charger, you can get 300 plus miles of range per hour. the use case for that level 1 charger is you have a single-family home with a garage and you plug it in overnight and you will get 40 to 50 miles of range overnight. most of these vehicles are going to sit or 95% of the day. the average driver drives about 30 miles a day, so even with a level 1 charger, and then know that is from early what we use, it far exceeds the range you will need in a given day but if you are driving or going on a longer trip, just make sure you are looking out for those direct-current fast chargers or if you stop at the grocery store, plug into the level to where you'll get a higher range. host: george in new jersey, you are next. caller: good morning. i have a question regarding your

full ev by 2030. i just purchased a tesla, and we have a level two charger at the house. it is pulling approximately 48 amps during the charge. most houses have about 100 amp services or 200. what is it going to do to the cost of setting this up by 2030, when every house and every car is going to be a 50 amp charge and most houses, most families have two cars? that would be pulling 100 amps. what is it going to do to the grid infrastructure, and the housing costs for people who set up level two charges? host: thank you. mr. britton? guest: it is a good question. your level two charger pulled

about the same level of service as your dryer. there is a 30% tax credit on the books right now where consumers can get $1000 for installing a charging unit in their home. i think your question is about generation and what does it do to the grid and certainly, in the next several years, we will actually be able to use ev's to better serve and provide grid service. we can use the grid more efficiently. i think on the surface, you think more electrons coming out, we will be more generation but ultimately if you think about where the grid is, ev's can be used to shave the peaks and valleys of demand. with demand response or managed charging or even timed pricing, you can better manage the grid and use it more efficiently. if you look at pg&e out of california, one of the highest ev penetration markets in the country, they just provided $350 million back to consumers because of the ev service they provided to the grid. they are producing the same number of electrons and no longer having to idle when

demand drops. it is a real opportunity for us to make everyone better off, even those who will never be behind the wheel of an ev. host: just about 9:00 on the east coast, which means it is just about 4:00 in hawaii. that is where alan is, and ev owner -- an ev owner. caller: it is great to have joe on. a few interesting things. i'm sure joe remembers when -- was an option with systems where they were going to have batteries that could be swapped out of the car and put back in. it was an interesting concept. that does not seem viable now, but a few things right now with the bidirectional charging, which is this brilliant concept and i am seeing the potential for that. here in hawaii, we are in the middle of doing an emergency enacted program with actual

batteries in people's houses, to replace the coal burning plant that goes off-line next year. in reality, it could be supplemented by electric vehicles and their batteries, that -- with hopefully the next generation of bidirectional charging. any comments on that? guest: alan, i am honored that you are up at 4:00 a.m. watching "washington journal." i typically don't get into this because it is kind of a weeny topic but the order for turning 22, they are doing rulemaking on it this year, it provides for aggregation of those energy resources. if you think about a load coming off of the grid, going to a user of the electricity, the grid is the same as the load going onto the grid and so i think there is

a huge opportunity to aggregate not only the retail consumers, but also this medium and heavy-duty fleets, especially school buses that will be sitting idle. you will look at those regions of the country where you have 3, 4, maybe five peaks where the price of electricity shoots through the roof. you can have that aggregation. it is not every day, but maybe once a quarter or once a month, there is the opportunity for folks to be plugged in, have that bidirectional charge so the charge not only coming off of the grid but able to go back in and provide real value to the user -- to the utility and consumers. i think it is an exciting space. i think it is probably two or three years away for your rich consumer -- for your average consumer. if you are enrolling in that program and you decide to be a grid operator or aggregator, this is the time when peak demand occurs and we may need you to provide a load from your battery pack from the car to the

grid. you are plugged in and ready to do that. you need to make sure it is at a time that you are convenient -- it is a time that is convenient and you are likely to be plugged in any way. it can provide more efficient grid services. host: we appreciate the call. jim in for hollow asks this question about the tax credit in the build back better act. is it refundable? he said the first one was not. guest: yes, actually. refund ability, if you do not have a tax liability that exceeds the $7,500, you couldn't get the full value. this time around, that is part of the build back better act where it is not only refundable but it is advanced so you can get at the time of sale, not having to wait until the end of the year. host: to jimmy out of baltimore, maryland, ev owner. caller: good morning.

i have a plug-in hybrid, a prius. i also have solar panels. for me, the way the hybrid works is you get 15 to 17 miles after you charge. every time i start my car up and go for a trip somewhere, the first 15 to 17 miles, i am running on solar power, which is absolutely terrific. it is free. i've had it since 2014. imagine the gasoline that i have saved. host: mr. britton? guest: you want through some of the numbers at the top of the show. there are many hybrids that have been on the market for years and they are getting better and better. i think there is a huge opportunity because those battery packs are going to be 40

kilowatt hours and under. many ev's are going to be 75 to 125 till about hours. as battery prices come down, you will see more consumers get the full battery electric, which we are encouraging but if you thick about the cost for kilowatt hours, once you get to $100 per kilowatt hour, that is when you get price parity with the internal combustion vehicle and we have seen numbers in the next year or two, we will see manufacturers reaching $62 dollars per kilowatt hour for the battery. actually cheaper for those upfront costs. pair that with the $1100 you can save in fuel maintenance and service throughout the year and that is the answer to how we accelerate and get to 100% ev sales by 2030. it is both innovation, consumer response to the savings and the sensibility for emissions reduction to address climate change. host: time for just a couple more calls.

about 10 minutes left with joe britton this morning. greg is in pennsylvania. good morning. caller: i have a question here, talking about the future of electric cars. my concern is how are you going to dispose of the batteries safely for the environment? guest: that is a great question. two things and they are both exciting stories. most of the battery packs that are in the full body -- full battery electric vehicle can be taken out. many of these are million mile battery packs that will far exceed the life of the chassis of the vehicle. they will be taken out and used for stacked grid storage. large batteries that can be used to shave the peaks and valleys of the electric grid. that is the secondary life. let's say the cars on the road for 20 years. it could be in a stack utility storage project for the next 15 years. when those batteries come out of their useful life, first life

transportation, second life a utility scale storage, they go to recycling and there are a couple companies like lifecycle, the american battery technology company, they are scaling and some of their biggest challenges that they are working on, waiting for those big battery packs to come off the line -- come offline. they can get 95% of critical materials out of the battery. unlike gasoline which burns and emissions stay in the atmosphere and creates challenges, is critical materials can be used over and over again. when i first heard the 95% stat, it painted a picture for me about how there is a stock of particle materials in these battery packs for years to come -- for decades to come. host: to rodney out of florida, ev owner. caller: good morning. host: go ahead. caller: i've owned a model three for about a year now. it is a great vehicle. i don't think people understand electric vehicles are a little

different than gas. first of all, i never fill it up all the way. i'm just driving a little bit tomorrow or the next day. i keep the battery between 20% and 80%. it doesn't take hours of waiting. it takes about five seconds, then you go do what you are doing, come back three or four hours later, it has a great charge. personally it takes seconds to charge it. the vehicle takes longer. when i go on long trips around florida, i fill it up to about 90% and stop every hour and a half, and it's not a problem at all on long vehicle trips. guest: rodney, i'm glad you mentioned that. we briefly talked about it earlier in the program. there is a huge opportunity here for folks, and i think part of it is a mindset shift. right now, we have just been accustomed for over a century to

say i'm low on gas, i need to do some thing about it. instead with charging, we will do it where it is convenient for us, where we live and play. that is the future of charging. you bring up a great point. everybody fears the zero to 100 charge but most of the time like your iphone, you will be charging when you sit down at your desk or at your nightstand. it is the same mentality with cars and once you get used to it, it becomes a natural part of life and many folks, certainly those with a single-family home wake up every single day with a full charge. i think that is the use case that is ideal and the challenge which is why there is public investment in closing the gap. multiunit housing, municipal parking, those folks who don't have a single-family home, they will be charging fully every night. how do we close that gap? that is where this investment from the infra-structure bill is going to meet us. host: this map of charging

stations across the united states. you mentioned your trip with your wife across the united states. what was your route, specifically across the mountain west and that part of the country that right now doesn't have -- that does have the fewest charging stations? guest: we started in lincoln, nebraska and we went up through chicago and down through pittsburgh into d.c. most people would be shocked at they looked at all of the charging stations around them. one of the most important developments over the past year was tesla announcing their supercharging networks. it really is -- every 50 miles, there is going to be the opportunity to charge, certainly at a level two if not a direct charger. in our ev, we can drive for five straight hours, but the human body is not designed to drive for five straight hours.

you'll stop for for restroom breaks or coffee and that is where you make up the difference on range. we were never held back. we would select when we were ready to stop, where the next two or three charging stations were. we will be on the road for another 10 or 30 minutes and we would ask if we want coffee or lunch. it became part of our normal routine and it is a psychological shift for folks because the normal mentality is you get to empty and then go to the gas station. this is something that is more incremental and done when you are conveniently doing it. host: from lincoln, nebraska with that route 80 east is where you went? guest: it is. host: last call, kathy in georgia. caller: good morning. this is a very interesting show you have. i would like to hear your guest comment about hardening of our very vulnerable electrical grid. it's been vulnerable for many years, and i would like to see

as much energy going into that, so that if we have these ev projects, at least they can be sustainable and drivers don't have to worry about electrical grid problems. i have a honda hybrid. i sold it to my brother because i had two vehicles and didn't use it enough. it is still going strong. i'm pro climate, but i worry a lot about the vulnerabilities in our grid. host: mr. britton, i will give you the final minute or two. guest: it is a great question. southern company, a jealousy that services georgia, georgia is a huge success story. if you look at where the manufacturing is happening in the letter vehicle space, is from ohio kentucky to tennessee, to georgia and the carolinas. we are creating a ton of jobs in georgia and we see a big future there for electric vehicle manufacturing. on the grid itself, in the build

back better agenda, there are huge investments in grid security and investment tax credits for improving the grid. the other thing is that ev's -- improving the grid. the other thing is that ev's make the grid more efficient. at times, you need something to take the charge, so you can shape the valleys and the peaks. if you are at peak power and the pricing spikes for your electricity, through demand response programs or managed charging, you can enroll. if you are coming home at night -- you are going to plug in at 6:00, the same time everyone else is plugging in their drier and washing machine and air conditioner -- your vehicle does not need to charge from 6:00 to 10:00. it could easily charge from 1:00 in the morning to 5:00 in the morning. that is what managed charging does. you can access the cheapest rates, and pulls a load of the

system so utility operators can better image it, and we get the most efficient use of our current generation. build back better, we are going to be investing prospectively in more wind, more solar, and other decarbonizing sources of energy. an internal combustion energy vehicle, its carbon footprint is set. with an ev, its lifecycle carbon footprint gets better and better as the grid improves and we decarbonizing and secure our electric grid. that is a good question and one we are eager to make progress on. host: we will have to end there. joe britton of the zero admissions transportation association. ♪ announcer: c-span's washington journal, every day we take your calls live on air on the news of the day and discussed policy issues that impact you. thursday morning senior fellow

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