possible in your portrayal of both sides of an issue. >> c-span awards $100,000 in total cash prizes, and you have a shot at winning the grand prize of $5,000. entries must be received before january 20, 2022. for competition rules, tutorials or how to get started, visit our website at studentcam.org. >> next, a discussion with deputy secretary of state wendy sherman on foreign policy, with a focus on china and the indo pacific region. hosted by the brookings institution, this runs an hour. tom: good afternoon. i am director of the center for the united states and europe at the workings institution and senior fellow in foreign policy at brookings. it is my pleasure to welcome you to our virtual and hybrid discussion on eu-u.s.

cooperation in the indo pacific. in may, the first high-level meeting of the you-u.s. dialogue was held in brussels. both the u.s. and european union acknowledged relations with china are multifaceted. since then, president biden met virtually with president xi jinping and the e.u. adopted a new indo-pacific strategy. it is my pleasure today to welcome the two co-chairs of the second e.u.-u.s. dialogue on china which took place this week in washington, d.c. wendy sherman is the u.s. deputy of state. her long career in the state department includes serving as undersecretary of state for political affairs from 2011 to and serving as undersecretary

under secretary madeleine albright. she's been a senior fellow at harvard center for science and international affairs. stefan sannino is the secretary general of the european action service. prior to this position he had an , extensive career in the italian diplomatic services and in the european commission and from 2013 to 2016, he served as italy's parliament representative to the european union. from february-december 2020, he served as assistant secretary general for economic and global affairs of the european external action service. today, deputy secretary sherman, secretary general sannino are with each other in person. i'm sorry i can't be there with you, i've joined virtually. they'll each offer brief introductory remarks followed by moderated discussion. we're very much on the record

today, streaming live. please send your questions for soplease send your questions for, the deputy secretary and the secretary general via email, at brookings. ed you or on twitter. at this point, we have excellent 20-25 questions, but the more the merrier. please keep them coming we'll , try to get to as many as possible. with that deputy secretary sherman, the floor is yours. thank you for joining us. tom: the mute button is on. the mute button is on. wendy: we used to joke when i taught that we should have t-shirts that say your mute button is on, because we all fell into that trap.

good afternoon to everyone who is here watching, streaming. stefano, thank you and your team for traveling to washington and for two incredibly productive days of meetings. we held the second session of the u.s.-e.u. dialogue on china yesterday and had high-level consultations earlier today on the indo-pacific more broadly. and frankly it's hard to think , of an issue or corner of the world where the united states and the european union aren't working closely together. as secretary blinken likes to say, the european union is america's partner of first resort. we saw that underscored this week as well with the secretary's travel to latvia and sweden. the transatlantic partnership is crucial to addressing the biggest challenges of the 21st century from ending the covid-19 , pandemic to tackling the climate crisis to strengthening , and upholding the rules based international order in the face of increasing threat. i also want to thank the

brookings institution for hosting this event today, especially tom for agreeing to serve as moderator, and your wonderful communications and events team for putting this program together. i'm really looking forward to a lively conversation. i want to make three quick points at the outset. first, on the people's republic of china. the united states has been clear that we will compete and compete vigorously with the p.r.c. where we should, cooperate with the p.r.c. where it is in our interest and the world's interest to do so, and challenge the p.r.c. where we must. such as when beijing takes actions that undermine the rules-based international order, violate human rights or threaten the interests of the united states or our allies and partners. we see our approach and the e.u.'s approach to the p.r.c. as complementary and increasingly convergent and aligned and that , is reflected in robust and detailed joint statement we issued yesterday evening. we share many concerns with our transatlantic allies about the p.r.c.'s actions, including

increasingly aggressive and opaque trade and economic practices, cracking down on democracy in hong kong, violating human rights, and bullying both lithuania and taiwan in response to their decision to deepen mutually-beneficial economic and cultural ties. the united states continues to reaffirm our support for lithuania and we are grateful as well for the e.u.'s clear and consistent messaging in support of lithuania. we are committed to standing shoulder to shoulder with our european partners to engage the p.r.c. from a position of collective strength. including when it comes to standing up for human rights, fighting back against economic coercion and upholding peace and security in the indo pacific region and around the world. second, on the indo pacific, the united states and the european union share a commitment to a free, open, peaceful, and inclusive indo pacific region.

as president biden has said, we support our european partners' increased engagement in the indo pacific region and welcome the e.u.'s in indo-pacific strategy they released earlier this fall. that's why secretary blinken and high representative burrell agreed to hold high-level u.s.-e.u. consultations on the indo pacific, which stefano and i led today. earlier this week they areleased a global gateway initiative. the united states has global gateway as complementary to the build back better world initiative president biden announced earlier this year. together, these efforts will help the u.s. and e.u. mobilize resources to promote sustainable, inclusive development around the world , including through transparency, high-quality investments in infrastructure. there are huge infrastructure needs across the indo pacific

and stefano and i agreed today , our teams will continue discussing ways to coordinate our approach to infrastructure in the region and work to identify opportunities for joint or parallel action. finally, as i noted at the beginning of my remarks, a wide range of issues and i'm very pleased to say that while secretary-general sonnino and i were meeting here in washington, secretary blinken and high representative burrell issued a statement announcing a u.s.-e.u. dialogue on a new initiative on defense. the united states is fully supportive of a stronger and more capable european defense that is complementary and interoperable with nato. the first session of the security and defense dialogue will be held early next year and i'm confident it will be a valuable and constructive forum for the u.s. and eu to continue deepening that operation. so i want to say thank you

, again, stefano, my friend, for a very positive and substantive two days of consultation. but i know we have even more to talk about with tom and with everyone watching from home. stefano, the floor is yours. stefano: wendy, thank you very , very much. it is a pleasure to be here in washington. i would like to thank you personally, your team, for the warm welcome meant for the to-day very productive discussion, setting the way for a substantive agenda in the months and years to come. a big thanks also to you, tom, and to brookings for putting this together. plant i'm looking forward to the discussion between the friends and colleagues who are with us literally or physically with you, tom.

i would like to hit on a number of points wendy has made right now, starting from what secretary blinken said about the fact that the european union first resource for the u.s. likewise, the united states is our first resort for european union, and we want to work to build a very strong alliance. the complexity of the threat challenges and crises we face in the world are requiring joint action, requiring we join our forces. we have seen that, as to the full threats and the old way of challenging our societies, we have new ways, new foes going

against us. unfortunately, what we have seen just in recent weeks, the border between belarus and poland, lithuania, it is very telling about the complexity of the world we are facing. so, it is important we continue to work in this direction. during these days, we have already had very extended conversation on china, on the pacific, as wendy mentioned. we had a multifaceted approach. we recognize the importance of china in the world. at the same time, we are not shying away when china is challenging our ways of thinking, our ways of operating, and when it is not playing according to the rules. we lack competition to be sure that the rules are the same and we compete on the basis of the same rules. and that's why we want to have a

multifaceted approach, as you said, knowing that we can cooperate on a number of issues. climate change is one that comes to front of mind immediately but we also have to compete according to the same rules in terms of rules that we have to set up together, and be sure there's not an unfair advantage that is taken by china. finally, there are areas where we are rivals, where our assistance not competing, one against the other. then the game would not be to shy away from this, and say what we think when it comes to human rights, when it comes to our vision of society and the world. we have also started our

consultation in the indo pacific region. this is a very important region for us. a very important region for us. japan, india, public of korea, asean network of trade agreements. so they extended trade and commercial and investment presence on the ground. we wanted to go beyond it, that's why we have launched the strategy which is adding also security elements and a more holistic approach to our powers in the working region. again this morning, wendy will say, we have found a lot of common ground, a lot of areas we

can and want to work together and we can do some very substantial advantage. it's not only about us, but it's also about the rest of the region, how to work bet we are them. wendy mentioned that we have just released our economic data strategy, covering the whole world, covering the areas and connectivity. we have tried tools defiep a financial package to support the strategy that we want to be open, we want to be transparent. we want to be sustainable financially, economically, socially and mentally. and on that point we can do a

lot of work together. finally, what you say, wendy, secretary blinken and high officer burrell on security and defense, it's a very important development. the european union is really trying to become a constructive, positive actor in this area. we have started 80-something years ago developing a number of instruments to be more active in this area. and we think the time has come to step up, to go to the next stage in terms of again engagement and what we can do together. let me just say one word on that, one point which is also

relevant. what is happening to lithuania is extremely worrying. we are worried about the measures that have been announced by china, vis-a-vis lithuania. they state very clearly the position of the european union on this issue because we do believe that this form of coercion vis-a-vis lithuania is not. thank you for this time, thank you to brookings, and i am happy to start. wendy: terrific. tom: thank you both. madam deputy secretary, if i can start with you, over the past

two months there have been extensive u.s. consultations with its european partners, particularly with france but also with the e.u. in general. without relitigating officer could you tell us what the -- relit gating offers, could you tell us about that, how did your connective thinking evolve through those quite extraordinary high level visits and meetings? wendy: thank you, tom. there were as some of my colleagues have said, as the president himself has said, maybe some things in the process that could have and probably should have gone better, but i think everyone now understands two very critical things. one, we all have a stake in the indo pacific. as we just heard from stefano, the european union put out its

indo-pacific strategy. we did not know the day it was going to come out was going on the tai we would announce, sometimes those things happen, the stairs line. but it was completely coincidental, we weren't aware of each other's timing. and i think it's important to acknowledge that europe put out its indo-pacific strategy first. the biden-harris administration will be coming out with an indo-pacific strategy in the near term and that we all have a stake in the indo-pacific which is why we are having these consultations that are so critical, because we both are players, we both have to care about what happens. and we have to work with each other to ensure a free, open, indo-pacific where there is freedom of navigation, where everyone has an opportunity to develop, where countries are not constrained in how they want to develop, where we all share some

of the same values for rules-based international order. where human rights and human dignity is part of the equation. i think everyone learns what aucuas was and what it wasn't. that was particular move to help australia and help that part of the pacific. to get into a stronger security posture. this is an 18-month consultation process in the first instance, to understand what we're trying to do here. and to try to put the package together. there will be other elements in the indo-pacific and in the broader partnership that we will be able to work on together. with other partners as well. so i think we've all got ton a very good place and the most fundamental point here is we all understand that the indo-pacific is very critical to our future,

it's critical to our climate future, it's critical to our development future, it's critical to our economic future and our security future. and we're going to be working on that together. tom: thank you. mr. secretary general, if i can turn to you and ask you a version of the same question, what you learned, what the e.u. learned in the process of those consultations. but if you can also address this point that in those sort of meetings and dialogues, various european official, particularly french officials but some e.u. officials as well, emphasize that the e.u. couldn't have an identical approach to the united states, there was some concern about elements of u.s. strategy. could you tell us a little bit about how you think about the acceptable sort of band of disagreement within this general alignment of the indo pacific -- of the indo-pacific. we heard about areas where the u.s. would be aligned. europe should have its own

perspective on. this what do you think is unique about the e.u.'s perspective as distinct from the american one? stefano: i don't think there's really issues about what is distinct. there's i think there's issues of what we have in common and what we're doing in common. i keep on saying that i really believe this, that the elements which are uniting us, the way we face, the way we consider the war, the way we're working together in this area, is exactly goes in the same direction. so to me, i see much more the element which are uniting and i don't think there is a distinction, honestly of elements which make a difference between us.

we may have the sense that the work that we have to do and where we want to be in the future is the same, so it's in a way, goes in the same direction. so it's not that i don't want to answer your question but to me the focus is really much more on the -- on this element. then when i see the way also wendy and the biden-harris administration are defining their relations with china, when i see how they are defining their interest in the indo-pacific region, i think we are going in the same direction. what we have tried to do in this days, in these months we work together, to have solely ground on which we can work together

and also with our partners in the region because it's not only an affair between e.u. and u.s. it's a problem of how we want to work together with our partners in the region. tom: if i can stick with you for a moment and ask about the global gateway we heard more about this week, can we expect some high profile, strategically minded infrastructure projects under the global gateway, the u.s. administration as i understand it, there should be some projects for coming in january. what does the e.u. have in mind and what should we expect? stefano: i think that we have a very good exchange today about this, which are the areas in which global gateways is going to focus. we all believe that we have a

strong interest also by both president biden and the commission president about the ponce of working very close one with the other. wendy, your initial remarks, you were rightly saying we won't see where we can have joint or parallel projects and we want to work in this direction. again we want to identify projects of interest for the region, our interest for the security, the prosperity of the region. our teams on both sides will work in this direction and we have also stressed the importance of delivering, of being sure that not only are we able to identify but we are also

able to deliver for the interest of the region. tom: madam deputy secretary, if i could follow up on this with the u.s. retooks global gateway, can we expect u.s.-e.u. collaboration and sit likely joint efforts will be able to compete with china's b.i.r. is that what it's intended to do given the scale of b.r.i.? wendy: i think, tom, what we spent a lot of time talking about today is where we each can make a difference. it won't be that we will necessarily co-finance a deal. it may be that a country comes to us and says, here are some projects work eneed some help and supportwith. that could be anything from technical assistance to full development finance. and it may be in one instance that is something that the e.u. will take the lead on. it may be in another instance

we're going to take the lead on. we're want to cover the map. i think one of the things that we really understand is that our collective strength is a force multiplier and our ability to move forward to help as stefano said our partners in the region who also are investing in the region. countries like japan and the republic of korea and others as well, australia, who are engaged in the region themselves. so this is working with partners all around the world to invest in the indo-pacific and quite frankly in other parts of the world and the global south where people are looking for investment and wanting to move forward. so that's what we're about. i think we will make tremendous progress. it's hard work. but we have gotten down to work and i think we're going to make a big difference. tom: thank you. if i could stick with you just

for another question, both of you mentioned the need to cooperate with china and of course we've seen back from the e.u., china's strategy the division of the relationship into partnership, competition and systemic rivalry. madam deputy secretary this year the biden administration has made efforts to engage with beijing on shared interest and the message from beijing for the most part has been that the relationship overall needs to be adjusted particularly with regard to u.s. investments to china and sensitive topics before that dwoption would be forthcoming. could you talk to us a little bit about the difficulty in successfully compartmentalizing the relationship and what does that tell us about the ability of the u.s. and e.u. to balance competition with china with cooperation on these shared challenges.

wendy: i think, you know, countries make their public statement. i look at what we do and what the actions are speaking about the nature of the relationship there is no doubt there's rivalry and competition and even areas of challenge. and in the recent v.t.c. between president biden and president xi jinping, there's a lot of talk about ensuring guardrails because responsible great power have a responsibility to not veer into miscalculation or conflict. both presidents made a commitment to make sure that there is no inadvertent, that that doesn't happen. although we have this very profound competition and sometimes challenge, we saw at cup 26 where the special

presidential envoy for climate worked with the p.n.c.'s climate envoy, working as well in partnership with our e.u. colleagues to come up with a way forward. was it everything we all might have wanted? no. but was it a step forward? absolutely. and on me thain emissions, an enor -- on methane emissions, an enormous step forward on methane which is responsible for an emoe emissions of co-2 in the world. thing what i care about what the president cares about, what secretary blinken cares about, is to make sure that we look at what we are doing to ensure that we don't have miscalculation, inadvertence that veer into conflict, where we see there are areas that we can cooperate and that we continue to speak our values, our goals and our objectives as i assume president

xi jinping will do and we move toward to ensure that people all over the world will have the prosperity and security and dignity that each human being deserves. and we are delighted to do that with our european parts for the. tom thank you. -- tom: thank you. mr. secretary general, i'd say about 20% of the questions we have got from our audience in advance concern taiwan and the e.u.'s position on taiwan so let me ask you about that. there seems to be an emerging consensus around europe about the need to deep then relationship with taiwan while sticking to the one china policy what steps can the e.u. take to send clear signals to beijing that anything but peaceful reunification will be unacceptable and just as a followup, the european parliament called for a bilateral investment agreement

with taiwan, do you think there are any scenarios in which such an investment aimrement might make sense with taiwan? stefano: i think the answer to this question is sort of multilayered answer because on one hand, it is what we are doing. we want to strengthen our economic and cultural ties with taiwan. we are willing to continue our cooperation. taiwan is very important for all asia, exporting and producing the key components for our industry. it's a very lively economy. it's very lively society. so we will continue strengthening our relations with taiwan in the context, as you say, of the one china policy.

it is also important to strength than in meaning. participation of taiwan internationally, they have a very important role to play. in particular the world health organization. from their point of view, we will continue working with them, the european union, and lithuania is strengthening ties with taiwan. we do not see this as derailing from the one china policy. at the same time we need to continue to work with the we have to pay attention to what is happening in the south china sea. we hope it remains open for trade, for the speed of ships

and goods moving from and towards the other continents. the important work we are doing with all the other countries of the region to ensure an environment more conducive to cooperation. we do not want confrontation. we want cooperation. we want for everyone to contribute to the peace and security of the region. >> if i could just follow up, are you worried in people in the united states, there's clear concern as china's military builds up. do you feel we are approaching a moment of crisis, and is there anything the eu can do to make sure that an act of aggression would be a terrible mistake, of

the kind of message that secretary blinken has sent over the past few months. >> we are building up a strategy , working with speed and enhancing our presence situated in the region, our maritime presence, working on creating an environment which is conducive once again to cooperation more than confrontation and also that the cost of confrontation will be extremely high. these are the things that we are working on, and i think it is work we have discussed doing these days in different ways from different perspectives and what we want to do once again

also with our partners in the region. >> thank you. i'm sure when you would like to comment on taiwan. 10 ask your specific angle on it? the united states has been closely engaged with taiwan, but around the world, many countries and private sector actors seem to -- that seem to offend beijing on this issue seem to be punished for it. what can the united states and eu do to show solidarity anza meaningful way with those foreign countries and actors to deter the use of coercive economic policy that we have seen from beijing? >> thanks for that question. i think you heard some of this talking about the european union approach with the one china

policy which we have as well which we know. i think you want to see as all of us together in support of countries facing economic coercion and we give them assistance and support in whatever way is appropriate for that country. it is not just small countries. australia has seen economic coercion from the prc as well, so we need to make sure they stand in solidarity and we provide alternatives to go back to something earlier that we actually deliver for countries, that they know they have a strong partner who will stand with them, that will share their values. again, taiwan is an important contributor in the global conversation. they bring a lot of expertise. one of the reasons for their participation in the summit of

democracy is because they are experts in disinformation, which is quite critical to building democratic values and democracy and make sure our citizens have facts and information and a lot -- and they have a lot of capabilities to share with other colleagues. again, within the context of our overall one china policy so there is a lot of work to be done and a lot of players in the indo pacific. i should have mentioned earlier when you asked about who we were working with and during close global gateway and build back better world. i should have mentioned our strong partnership with india as well as australia, japan, and the united states, which is another forum working with the european union as well where there are many ways we

contribute to a stronger indo pacific. tom: thank you. we have had a number of questions, i would like to ask you both the same question basically, one person from apps there been any discussion between the delegations responding to allegations of forced labor? were follow-ups on the proposed legislation on banning on the -- banning goods on the assumption that they have forced labor, whether or not the administration is in favor of that were not but what are the concrete -- you have both spoken about the human rights abuses taking place, but what can we expect as a response? >> secretary blinken and i have spoken early on and called what has occurred genocide.

we are quite concerned and remain concerned about the horrific human rights abuses have taken place. the particular amendment you are discussing -- the administration does not oppose this amendment. we need to stand in solidarity with the uighur, with religious minorities all over the world, to make sure they can live in security and dignity do whatever we can. we've imposed sanctions on the prc for what they are doing. we've constantly spoken out and have joined in solidarity with the european union and these nations and many other nations around the world, and we must continue to do so. i was very forthright about what was taking place along with all the other human rights

concerns that we have, whether it's ethnic and cultural heritage in tibet, what has happened to democracy in hong kong, the efforts to conscript what taiwan is trying to do as far as developing part of a one china policy, what china does in its development policies to regarding the economic coercion you spoke about before. this is an area where the european union has been strong when it comes to human rights, very outspoken and we are glad we stand in solidarity with each other. tom: thank you. if i could ask you to comment and also to add, questions on the eu's view or post diplomatic voice of the beijing winter

olympics, the question being what you think concrete actions need to be taken in response to these abuses? >> let me echo what she just said. about the importance of the pressure, being vocal about this. it is very important and for others in these pressures, including the sanctions for the human rights and that. we've also discussed today child labor in these areas and we are looking to see what action we

could develop together. concerning more specifically the point of the olympic games, this is an area where i have to be a little bit more reserved because it is really the realm of our main state. we have not yet brought this area into the community, into a common area, so it is for each member state to do and to decide what to do about that. unfortunately, i am not in a position to give you a sort of single answer. on the other, yes, i think it is in a very strong position and represents the work of our special representative for human rights and this area.

fortunately, -- unfortunately, the last few months have been extremely difficult from this point of view, and we have not seen the level of cooperation we expected from china in this area, but we will continue to put pressure until we make clear that the situation is not acceptable to us. tom: thank you if i could speak to you for one moment, when the eu imposed sanction on individuals with concert -- in concert with the united states, that was believed to have sort of torpedoed the chances for the comprehensive investment in the european parliament. do you see how that is resuscitated in 2022 or is the

cai basically dead? secretary sannino: i do not see any kind of development in the future. it is a change of the idea on -- unless there is a change of ideas on these issues. as you can imagine, members of the national parliament, officials working in european institutions, members of ngo's, and universities believe they have gone too far. tom: thank you. this question is for both of you , but there are areas of crime and covid where the u.s. and europe engage with china, in

particular afghanistan after the events of the jc poa and iran, i was wondering if you could comment on both of your perceptions of china and their role on those two issues and if you are satisfied with the cooperation of policy from china. secretary sherman: let me start with iran since it is in the news of late. the first round or i should say the seventh round and action negotiations and they hoped to return hopefully next week in but remember the united states is not in the room, we are very grateful for our european partners being the conduit back and forth for us, though special

envoy conversations going with russia and china as well, but they were not serious in this round. not only were they not serious, but they kept moving the program forward, which was shared by the head of the international agency -- international energy agency, which was totally unsatisfying. we regret deeply that are on -- that iran did not come to this around with the same purpose, but we are grateful not only for european partners, who were so critical in the european union are coordinating these talks but for russia and china who have stayed with us, with europe on the objective here to ensure a next round, they come with seriousness.

please are hoping there is a next round. -- we are hoping there is a next round. on afghanistan, i am not sure china has decided exactly where it is going to be on afghanistan. i think to be fair, we are all treading carefully and step-by-step. as you know, tom west, our special representative on afghanistan recently held a team meeting with the taliban in doha. we did it immediately after the european union held a round of talks, so that was very useful because we could compare notes and talk about what our expectations are. the international community, wide-ranging, many, many countries believe the taliban need to show they have an inclusive government, that women

and girls can go to school, that it will not become a safe haven for terrorism again, and that everyone will have a chance to move forward in society, that human rights will be respected. there are other things we are looking for as we move forward so everybody is moving up by -- step-by-step in this regard, and i think that probably goes for the chinese as well. tom: thank you. mr. secretary-general. secretary sannino: i think wendy summarized a good position on iran and we want iran to be serious and to negotiate seriously. we are not, let's say, waiting for failure. on the contrary, we want success, and we want to be sure there is no proliferation in the

region and we can put forth a more constructive effort in the region. from that point of view, all the efforts we are doing to get this out, but as wendy said, we need to also have a serious and proper offer on the table. unfortunately, what we have gotten from the atomic agency is not very reassuring, but we will continue. again, the fact that nobody is leaving the table is also here a clear sign that we are attached to the process and that we think the process is important because it will deliver results. on afghanistan, we are fully

online. we are worried about the fact that afghanistan collapsed, and it is our intention to make sure the country can continue to function for the good of the people. we are, let's say, engaging with the taliban in order to see if we can support, again, the people in the country. we have had constructive discretions -- discussions with the taliban and have made very clear which are the conditions under which we can work together

and continue this engagement. we are setting up a support presence on the ground in kabul in order to work on the humanitarian aspect, to work on free passage, to work on the humanitarian elements to support the efforts in order to give a chance to young men and young women to have their education, and we are continuing to push in this direction. so it is a long and difficult process, and from that point of view, we need to continue having interaction also with all the countries around afghanistan. it is very important. we need to make our voice heard

as much as the others. i think there is a very good understanding on moving together in this area. it is our interest -- afghanistan is not far away from us. it is close to us. we have invested for so many years, but also, we have seen unfortunately if the country starts becoming the area from which drugs are moved to europe or the old world, these are all elements which are of concern for all of us. tom: thank you. we have eight minutes left.

i want to give you both a chance to talk about a non-indo pacific issue of russia and ukraine, but before that, i have one more indo pacific question. there has been tension between france and australia after all this. can you talk to us at little bit about where relations are between the eu and australia, and are things getting back to normal? how do you see australia fitting into the eu's indo pacific strategy after all? secretary sannino: look, i think that it is quite evident that every -- to everyone involved that work has happened and left a mark. from that point of view, the solidarity that we have all expressed, it is not a question

of commercial elephant -- elements, but also a question of trust and economic policy. i cannot say this has not left scars, but all those scars can be healed. there an effort being done in order to make sure this can be overcome. i think the overall interest in having a good relationship with australia is there, and it is one important partner in the region. it is a like-minded partner and ally, but at the same time, we need to take into account, let's say, an element that needs to be taken care of. i hope this can be done, and it

can go back to a more normal situation, and i hope that this can happen sooner rather than later. tom: madam secretary, if you care to comment on australian relations, the view of the biden administration on how australia, i guess, has been treated by the eu in terms of the trade elements and need to get back to normal quickly, but also you could take the opportunity as well to comment on anything you would like to say on russia and ukraine, the risk of invasion that has been raised in the coming months. secretary sherman: i think the secretary-general has spoken quite eloquently about how the european union reacted to and is

now going forward regarding the relationship with australia. secretary blinken has been very forthright again in europe this week to say that if russia takes steps to invade the ukraine, that it will be extraordinarily serious, and we will take every measure necessary to deter them from doing so, and should they, to make them feel the consequences. we heard president biden just today say there is work underway to develop both our own and the in concert with the european union, a set of initiatives, were his words, including economic actions that will certainly deliver a message to

president putin that this is not a road he wants to go down. we stand in solidarity with ukraine, as does europe, as does the european union, and we want to support ukraine in every way that's appropriate again to deter russia. we respect their territorial integrity, including crimea, which was illegally altered by russia some time ago and we want to ensure, of course, that we do not have conflict on the continent, which would have enormous consequences, not only in europe but throughout the world. there is very serious work going on. the secretary had very important conversations with the european

quad while he was in europe, ongoing consultations with the european union, sharing information that europe has and we have to understand the situation, to support ukraine at this time, and the secretary met with prime minister lavrov. it was very cordial, very professional, and very direct. i think everyone understands what we have here, and we have heard statements out of european capitals and european leaders that should russia take this action, virtually everything would be on the table. i will turn it over to my colleague here. tom: thank you.

secretary sannino: i cannot agree more about the concern we have for the development of this situation on the ground. we see the military buildup, we see the pressure on the border with ukraine, and this is clearly something that worries us very much. as wendy said, we are ready to -- we are very supportive of the independence of ukraine. also very supportive of the choices they can make about their own future and their own positioning, so we will continue to be solid with them from that point of view. i think that we need to be also very clear with moscow about the fact that any action it would take in this direction would

jeopardize the integrity of ukraine more than they have done in the past because they've already done it. there would be consequences that would be painful for everybody, but certainly painful for those who would commit this type of aggression. we are all very much engaged in talking to russia. we have also met with lavrov in sweden, and we will continue to make it clear that actions entail reactions, and we will not shy away from reacting, so we will continue, let's say, to have -- to exchange information.

we have a common awareness of what is happening on the ground, and we will continue to assure our ukrainian partners about the fact that we will continue to be supportive of their independence and territorial integrity. tom: thank you and that brings us to the conclusion, i think, so i would like to thank you both for an extraordinarily rich and informative discussion. i would like to thank all of those who submitted questions online on twitter. i think we managed to integrate many of those into the conversation. i would also like to thank my colleagues and the communications >> c-span's "washn

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