eastern. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are funded by these television companies. >> broadband is a force for empowerment. that is why charter has invented billions upgrading technology, empowering opportunity in communities big and small. charter is connecting us. >> charter communications support c-span is a public service, along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. >> coming up this morning, we will remember the life and legacy of the late senator bob dole with iowa senator chuck grassley who served alongside senator dole. we will hear from brian lowery about today's memorial service at the u.s. capitol, and david

hawking's from the american leader come on senator dole's influence in the senate. john yarmuth also joins us to discuss vaccine mandates and congressional action to raise the debt limit. "washington journal" is next. ♪ host: good morning, everyone, on this december 9, 2021. the flags are half-staff in honor of the late senator robert dold who died sunday at the age of 98 and will lie in state. president biden well deliver remarks. senate republicans along with two democratic senators voted 52-48 to scrap president biden's vaccine mandates for businesses. the measure faces an uphill

battle and president biden vows to veto it. republicans say they will keep pushing back vaccine mandates. it is your turn to tell washington what you think about the federal mandate for businesses. if you support mandates, dial in at (202) 748-8001 -- (202) 748-8000. if you oppose mandates, (202) 748-8001. business owners this morning, (202) 748-8002. you can also send us a text with their first name, city and state to (202) 748-8003. go to facebook.com/c-span or send us a tweet with the handle@cspanwj. according to a recent "wall street journal" poll taken, vaccine mandate for the private sector, half of americans back

it. 50% support the vaccine requirements for the private sector which directs companies with 100 or more employees to require workers to either get vaccinated or test weekly. 47% oppose. a slightly largeer -- larger share of voters support mandates for first responders with 55% in favor and 44% opposed. yesterday's charge on the hill by senate republicans to try to undo the president's vaccine mandate for the private sector was led by senator mike braun of indiana. here he is talking about it at a news conference wednesday. [video clip] >> we are lucky we had a vaccine. we got it quicker than we would have otherwise because we were entrepreneurial in the way we did it. i've been on record that unless

you have a good reason, -- a good reason not to, you should get the vaccine. but where i come from, when you then try to extend that to the point, especially looking at what we've traveled through over a year and a half and two where hardly any transmission is occurring at the business level or what you do during the day, and then you have a brainstorm like this, either get the vaccine or you get tested or you lose your job if you choose to do neither. that is the heavy hand of government. that is overreach and that is when my phone started ringing off the hook. when i would go back home each weekend like i always do, i was getting called, texted. people would stop me and say, what is happening? this is from not corporate america. this is from where we need to be

paying attention and remember, we were helping businesses up to 500 employees. we spent billions, trillions of dollars to get through this and now when everyone has found a way to navigate it, because they've been responsible, businesses wanted to keep, from the beginning, their employees and customers safe. you come up with this kind of ultimatum. it's got main street america scared, worried about, what does this mean on another issue? anybody that thinks this is a good idea, imagine the next time it happens when you are on the wrong side of whatever the merits of the case would be. that's why for me, it was easy to do. we click -- we quickly got all republicans on board. now it's bipartisan. i want to hear from the other senators. i hope members in the house,

democrats in places, check with your constituents and make sure that they are not part of the 86% of americans that say when you put it in these terms, either get it or you lose your job, you are on the wrong side of the issue. host: republican mike braun of indiana leading the charge in the senate to undo president biden's vaccine mandate for the private sector. why did two democrats join republicans? joe manchin supports vaccine mandates for federal employees and the military but says i do not support any vaccine mandate for private businesses. it is not the place of the government to tell business owners how to protect employees from covid-19 and operate their businesses. we should incentivize, not penalize, private employers to encourage vaccination among their employees. he notes that he has been

vaccinated and has had a booster shot and urges his constituents to get a shot. jon tester put out a statement saying -- over the last few months i've repeatedly heard concerns from montana's small business community leaders of the effect the mandate will have on their bottom line. that's why i intend to join a bipartisan majority in defending jobs and businesses against these regulations. i urge everyone to get vaccinated as soon as possible to end the pandemic once and for all. now we turn to all of you, what do you think about the president's vaccine mandates? john in brooklyn, you support the idea. caller: i support the idea and i don't understand the republicans, because the governor of florida -- host: we are listening. i don't know what happened.

maybe you can call back in. joe, you are a business owner. what do you do? caller: i love c-span and have been calling 30 years. i've owned a business 30 years and we've got too many mandates from government. i'm a small businessman, small businessman of the year in 1975, and we are under a lot of pressure with all these mandates. we need less government, less tax, and we have a real hero running for governor of georgia, david perdue, small business and taxpayer champion. i'm working hard to get him elected. we do not need more mandates. we need less government, less taxes, less regulation because all these mandates are choking at 28 million small businesses in america. we've got to let them have some freedom and liberty to make a profit. host: people who listen to this

show probably know your voice and know that you call in every 30 days and have been for many years, but -- and we know you're interested in politics. what's your business? caller: i write a conservative political newsletter. i've endorsed david purdue and my goal is to be the best, most positive campaigner in american history. i'm not going to attack any of his opponents, just telling everybody how great david purdue is. host: alan in deerfield -- ellen in deerfield beach, -- caller: i strongly oppose the vaccination mandate. i am a phd rn and am 70 years old so i've been in health care for a long time. they are not fully promoting the downside of this vaccine in terms of possible negative side

effects. never discussed. in addition, when we follow the science, which i am a scientist, we see that although the vaccine definitely can reduce the severity and potential to die, which is a wonderful reason to choose it if you so choose it, it's wonderful. i support it's availability. however, they are not sharing the amount of not only negative side effects but the fact that the curve of the virus in terms of increasing and decreasing amount of virus in a particular place has been studied and found not to go along as the same curve as the amount of people who are vaccinated. there are reasons why people should get it but they should be allowed not to get it. as a lifelong democrat, i am seeing that the republicans are going to win by a landslide

because of this mandate. that is against the american ideal of having choice. host: what do you think about part of the provision that the president put in, if you don't want to get vaccinated you have to test every week to keep others safe. caller: when that is available, that's one thing, but in so many of the places that is not a potential availability. there's is also a wonderful test that is being underused which is the saliva test, which makes it completely easy and safe. you are not having anything put up your nose, which potentially has some toxic chemicals on it. you just have a test tube that you spit into. i have used that myself whenever i needed to fly somewhere or go somewhere and they wanted that test. host: alan -- ellen in florida,

scientists have noted when you get the vaccine nation you have a reduced chance of a serious reaction to covid-19. people who are vaccinated are 1/10 less likely to be hospitalized or die than those who are unvaccinated. let's listen to the democrats led by majority leader chuck schumer. here's his reaction. [video clip] >> if the only damage was to him or herself who did not get vaccinated, maybe some people would say that's ok, but watches them. when there's a large pool -- it is not just them when there's a large pool of unvaccinated, that allows the covid virus to spread, mutate, create new variants and stronger new

variants. it is a pool of people. if you greatly reduce that pool, you greatly reduce the chance of a new variant from afflicting aust in the months ahead. -- afflicting us in the months ahead. the internet has had a role in spreading this and so has the far right. the same people in the far right you want to turn down -- tear down government and her working people and so many other ways are here doing the same thing. even though as i said, a good number of them get vaccinated themselves. hypocrisy. there should be one message only coming from this chamber to the american people, get vaccinated, get used to it, stay safe yourself, keep your families -- boosted, stay safe yourself, keep your families safe. the worst thing we can do is tie our own hands behind our back and let these new variants

spread and grow and new ones after omicron and so many others. but that is what republican pushed anti-vaccines would do. i would strongly vote against this with strong feelings. host: the majority leader chuck schumer on the senate floor. the senate voted 52-48, two democrats joining republicans to scrap the vaccine mandates for businesses. we are getting your reaction. it has not gone to the house. there is an effort in the house to do so. it's your turn to tell lawmakers what to do. mitchell in new jersey, you support vaccine mandates for the private sector. caller: good morning. when covid first became a reality for all of us, i would venture to guess but the first thought in everyone's mind before they were colluded with

misinformation and distortions was, how soon will it take them to get a vaccine for this? and now that we have a vaccine, a safe vaccine that probably has had more applications than any other drug in the history of mankind that's been given to billions of people already and hundreds of millions of americans, we still have it -- a recalcitrant class of people who refuse to take it. no one is suggesting that anyone be strapped down to a table and have a needle jabbed into their arm. what they are saying is that if you work in any kind of congregate facility where you are exposing yourself to numerous people, these vaccines are necessary for the safety of all. and basically, we have the republican party who has been

promoting misinformation, distortions, lies, half-truths, and false information about the vaccine and then we have people who are taking snippets of information and really not looking at all the nuances of the medical science. and they are projecting -- putting out this propaganda and giving us basically a no win situation. no one is going to tell me what to do. and by the way, you democrats and biden, you are screwing up the coronavirus response. the economy is going bad. the economy is going bad because we still have rampant out of control variants for this disease. it is ridiculous. this country used to be proud of our science, our scientific achievements. we use to applaud sending a man to outer space and the moon.

we use to marvel together about the achievements in medical science that we could all be proud of, but today, we just look at that and they disregard all the factual information and they are making a laughingstock of this country. they are exposing all of us to greater harms and greater risks down the road. it is very sad. host: james is in pennsylvania, opposing the mandate for businesses. go ahead. james, difficulty hearing you. can you get closer to the phone? caller: yes, ma'am. can you hear me? host: loud and clear. caller: science says there is two types of skeletons, a female and male. they are different. host: ok. caller: there is no in between.

anybody thinks that there is an in between skeleton -- host: i'm not sure where you're going with this. caller: i respect you so much but you are probably going to do -- because i never did believe in the coronavirus. i believe it was hoax -- it was a hoax. it is a dirty trick. it is jim jones, heaven's gate type thing. this is how they got people to be slavery. it is a hack of the mind. there never was a coronavirus, there is not a coronavirus. host: got it. nick in michigan, how many employees do you have? caller: it varies. it's a small business started in 2018. this is the first time ever i called c-span and it is out of character because i'm a conservative voter.

i have not voted for democrat since 1996. even though i voted for bill clinton in 1992. i wanted to say that -- hello? host: we are listening. caller: i want to say that because i am absolutely in favor of the mandate, it is the only thing biden has done well so far. he has messed up everything, afghanistan. biden in my opinion is a senile idiot. he was never right. this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated. senator schumer, who i cannot stand, i agree 100% with what he said. he's absolutely right. this is insane. this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated and every day we lose 1000 to 2000 people. do you know what to thousand people are? it is five jumbo jets crashing

and killing everybody in them everyday. the media say nothing. americans died because these people were not vaccinated. you've got 50 more -- 50 times more chance to die if you are unvaccinated. not only should there be a mandate, there should be penalties. people over 60, if they don't vaccinate the have to pay $100 a month. this is a country that have waited, $100 a month. it is insane. the famous nobel prize winner who is deceased now said that the internet and social media and all these things have resulted in an invasion of the idiot. a lot of times guy would go to a bar and say some silly things and two people would listen to him. now he goes and 2 million people

listen to those conspiracy theories and believe them because they are idiots. i give up, raise my hands up because i cannot convince those people they will die. they have also ruined our lives. not only do they kill other people, but i didn't suffer, didn't get sick. i had all my three doses as soon as i could and i will do a fourth dose as soon as it is available. i lost two years of my life. host: what's your business? caller: i'm an engineer. i also have an mba. my businesses high-level consulting. my employees are students, graduates, professors. host: where are you originally from questioner -- are you originally from? caller: from the european union. host: dexter in connecticut, you oppose the mandate. caller: hi, greta.

just a real quick two comments. senator schumer should not be opining medical information. he's not licensed or certified as a medical professional. my second point is this 100 and greater number of people in a company. if your company has 99 people, then you are not required to have the mandate vaccine. for this is unconstitutional if you ask me. why would you have one group of companies required to have a mandate and companies that have less employees not required? host: this was approved in the senate and still has to be approved in the house.

now with the democratic control of the house, they would need republic -- republicans would need more democrats to join them to get this on the floor. fred keller of pennsylvania is leading the charge. listen to what he had to say. [video clip] >> that's great news today that all 212 members of the republican congress have joined me in standing up against president biden and the vaccine mandate. the congressional review to undo this burdensome vaccine mandate on america's workers and employers now has the support of the entire republican conference in the house and senate, and senator manchin. the people we are fighting for our the people that built the greatest economy in the world, that got us through the pandemic because of their hard work every day, and now we are standing up for them. i'm hopeful that the rest of the democrats in the senate and the

house will join us in standing up for the people for which we work, our constituents, making sure that we fight against vaccine mandate. host: republican fred keller of pennsylvania. yesterday, the white house was asked about the two democrats, joe manchin and jon tester joining republicans to approve the undoing of the vaccine mandate and asked if this were to pass the house, what with the president do? [video clip] >> it's important to remind everyone what this social rule is about. it is based on a 50 year old law and we are confident in our ability to implement it. it is about not just requiring vaccination but unvaccinated people to get vaccinated and the alternative of testing once a week. the view of many americans is if people aren't vaccinated, having them test once a week is quite

reasonable as we are thinking about how to protect our workplaces, how to protect stores and retail locations when people are out shopping, how to protect our children in schools and public places, and we also know that more than 100 leading public health experts have endorsed this rule. also building on what we've seen businesses do on their own, 60% of businesses are implementing these requirements because they work. they know people will feel confident being in their workplaces and they will provide a more stable work environment. we hope the senate congress will stand up to the anti-vaccine and testing ground and we will work to implement these. if it comes to the president's desk, he will veto it. the president has been clear we will use every tool to protect the american people and hope others will join us. host: the white house press secretary.

juanita in ohio, we are asking if you support, oppose this vaccine mandate. what do you think? caller: i support it. we got a new variant omicron we are not sure about yet. in regards to a democrat who is a scientist, i am a medical librarian and i can tell you there is no vaccine i know of in history but didn't have a reaction to it or variant. but even more importantly, and down to my personal safety, i'm going to be frank with you. i sympathize with small businesses but i've had covid and i get tested every four to six weeks because i have an elderly person in my home. if i were to walk into a business and catch it again, i would try to sue them out of existence. it is that simple.

i'm tired of being pushed around by the unvaccinated about their rights. what about mine? what about my family and the possibility of my giving it to people i love? no. we need a vaccine mandate and i hope he does veto it if it is opposed to what we want. host: ron, brandon 10, florida, supporting the mandate. caller: how are you doing? host: i am well. caller: i'm going to give you the history of my mandated vaccinations, started when i was young and i had to take and have all these vaccination before i went to school. after i graduated from school, i went into the military and i had another vaccination card that i had to take after i got all my shots for overseas. and now i've got a vaccination

card that says i have a booster. i am retired and it is great to be retired, but i did own a small electrical company and i did work at pools. -- schools. i did work at churches, hospitals, and i actually did work at the minnesota state capitol. now, if a worker came to work for me and had pneumonia, do you think i would be liable if i sent them to work that day? there is no difference between somebody coming to work until -- coming to work ill and me sending them to any one of these places to work. i couldn't do it, i wouldn't do it. i would be liable.

there is no reason these people shouldn't get their shots, because they started when they were young getting them so they couldn't even go to school. so the mandate, because all these people had it, all the congressmen, all the senators have had their kids get the shots. they've had the shots. and they've have businesses and some of them are doctors, and those doctors don't want their patients coming in and any doctor's office you go to, the first thing you do is ask if you've got covid, have got the shot, come in with the mask. it would be a lot simpler if everybody got their shot. host: michael in tennessee, opposing the mandate. thomas why. -- tell us why. caller: regulatory overreach that uses the osha door to be able to put the regulation in

place. in a year and a half, no community spread or no clusters of spread. virus is not as ubiquitous as people imagine. even if 100,000 people are testing positive, that is one out of every 300,000 people. vaccines will not necessarily help with those who are elderly or immunocompromised, not necessarily going to have a robust immune response. one of the things that's strange about the demonization of the unvaccinated, unvaccinated people do not spread. it is infected people who spread. both vaccinated and unvaccinated can spread. it would make much more sense to just everybody since you are testing only unvaccinated does not make sense because there are

potential dangers in the immune compromised for people infected, vaccinated or unvaccinated. host: you work for a large employee. that your employee tell you have to get vaccinated? caller: no. we are waiting for the courts to settle it out or the regulation to go in place. it is not going to happen by january 4. host: you are waiting for the courts and haven't been vaccinated, right? caller: i didn't say that. host: do you get tested at your work before you go in? how are they doing it? caller: no. we get a report several times a week and have since we came back from the big shut down, on how many people plant wide are infected, how many people statewide are infected, how many people tested positive statewide the day before and in our

municipality. host: as michael said, this has been challenged in the courts. "the washington post" notes a judge in new orleans cited with opponents -- sided with opponents in a blow to the biden administration's plans. other appeals are underway including a case in georgia that resulted in a judge blocking the implementation of vaccine rules targeting federal contractors and the opposition on capitol hill where republicans have unleashed a flurry of -- that's why we are asking you to tell washington and the decision-makers what you think they should do. if you support the mandate, we've got a line for you. if you oppose, we've got a line from you as well and business owners, we would like to hear

about how this is impacting you. robert is a business owner in the louisiana. welcome to the conversation. caller: with the vaccine mandate , people go and get decimated. they just say, don't get vaccinated if you don't want to get vaccinated. don't come to the hospital or the businesses. just stay-at-home and take care of everybody around you. it's a joke. everybody is getting mandates, don't want to get vaccinated and we got vaccinated when we was kids, everybody. everybody knows this. now we got a group of people that jump up and down that they don't want to get vaccinated. a group of people want to get vaccinated. i got all three vaccinations and it ain't harmed me at all. host: what's your business? caller: i don't have a business. i'm retired.

i was a truck driver for 40 years. host: let's call in on the right lines if you are a business owner. linda in lorena, texas, you support mandates. caller: i absolutely support the mandates. i did a mandate that everybody gets one. i'm so tired of this virus and in the region it keeps spreading and carrying on because of people not getting vaccinated. it is not just about them but about other people. the red flag goes up with what the government is allowed to do whenever public health is concerned. i think the people that are not getting vaccinated, half of them don't have the courtesy to wear a mask. if they don't want to get vaccinated when they get sick, don't take up a hospital bed that other people can use either. host: linda in texas. as we told you at the top, the flags here in washington at half-staff this morning in honor

of the late senator robert dole, republican of kansas, world war ii veteran, lawyer, state representative, u.s. senator and presidential nominee for the republican party. he died sunday at the age of 98 and he becomes the 35th person in our nation's history to have the honor of lying in state. president biden will deliver remarks along with others. our coverage this morning at 9:30 a.m. eastern time right here on c-span. the casket carrying the late senator will arrive at the u.s. capitol around 9:45 a.m. eastern time and immediately following that, the president and lawmakers will gather for the tribute and ceremony. you can watch it right here or our website, c-span.org, or you

can download our free c-span video now app on any mobile device. there will be a more aerial service on friday for the late editor as well -- memorial service on friday for the late senator as well at the washington national cathedral. our coverage begins at 11:00 a.m. eastern time on c-span, c-span.org, or with the video app, c-span now. download it on any mobile device. president biden delivered remarks recently, paid tribute to senator dole at an infrastructure event in kansas city, missouri wednesday. [video clip] president biden: i'd like to say a word about a friend of mine who we lost this weekend. amen few hours -- a man a few hours west of russell, kansas.

many remembered bob dole as a presidential candidate for families, he represented across the border, represented kansas for 37 years. for those like me who have the honor of calling him a friend, bob cole was an american -- bob dole was an american giant of extraordinary physical and moral courage, a war hero who sacrificed beyond measure, who nearly gave his life for our country in world war ii. along with the greatest of the great generation. a leader of honesty, decency, and good humor. the same qualities that made him such a cherished friend to me and my wife jill and so many others through the years. we didn't agree on everything, but i always admired and respected him and his willingness to work with anyone in any party when it mattered most. our nation owes bob dole a debt

of gratitude for remarkable service and a life well lived. [applause] host: president biden in kansas city, missouri who will deliver remarks for the late senator bob dole. back to our conversation about president biden's vaccine mandate for the private sector. senate republicans pushed on the floor yesterday a provision to undo that mandate that garnered the support of two democrats. it was approved 52-48. it could, if republicans in the house can get enough democrats to join them, get on the floor in the house. the president has vowed to depot -- veto it. south dakota, business owner, doug, thanks for calling in. caller: good morning.

i oppose this mandate because you can still catch the virus and so on and so forth. if anyone is going to put a mandate on it, you would think the insurance companies. older people, i suppose medicare or medicaid is paying for that but the other deal, seems like the mandate is stepping over bounds. i am totally a democrat but i'm starting to agree on the covid with a lot of these issues. host: you are a business owner. yes, the regulations impact your bottom line, however if you offer health insurance to your employees and one of them is unvaccinated and they end up getting vaccinated, does not cost you a lot more? -- doesn't that cost you a lot more? caller: not me, i'm a one-man show and i play in the dirt. it wouldn't cost me, but somebody has got to pay for

this. i would think the insurance companies would be pushing the mandate. the government, i don't think it's right because it doesn't really protect you. i'm all vaccinated, had my boosters and i believe it. i believe the chances of going to the hospital or whatever, but it just is not the government's deal. i think the government is way too much in life and trying to get further in. i'm a democrat but i'm starting to agree with republicans a lot. host: bernie and howard beach, new york. -- in howard beach, new york. caller: first, i would like to put it in context. i just want the world or the united states to understand, these are extraordinary times. extraordinary times. the pandemic, i'm for the pandemic. how is that?

let me jump down the rabbit hole. i'm for the pandemic and that's why i'm against the mandate. why? our social security funding is in jeopardy. this takes care of it. if everybody dies -- host: gary in mechanicsville -- gary. caller: i'm opposed to the mandate mainly because the vaccine is not an actual vaccine, it's an mrna shot. it has graphene hydroxide in it which causes problem. 16,000 people that have died from the vaccine, more from all the other vaccines in the last 30 years. there is a million people in the hospital with problems from the vaccine directly. i think it is something being pushed by the pharmaceuticals. that's all it is. host: what's your business?

caller: i am an estimator, federal contractor. host: do you have any employees or are you on your own? caller: i have a small company of my own. host: this doesn't apply to you? caller: yeah, it would, but a federal judge stop at yesterday. he stopped the push of the vaccine. host: for federal contractors. ok. mark in new york, opposing the mandate. caller: good morning. host: good morning. caller: i think people have been scared out of their wits. they've been scared out of their wits. -- host: you sound muffled. caller: can you hear me now? host: much better. caller: people have been literally scared out of there with. people took the vaccine, they don't want to admit they made a mistake or that it can be what

they think it is. i remember the other week we had the aids expert on and he ate mentioned nothing -- he ain't mentioned nothing about immunodeficiency, talking, talking, don't say what's in the vaccine or how it works. when covid hit everybody, everybody got a good immunity and i think the vaccine takes away that immunity. host: paul, jacksonville, florida, supports vaccine mandate. why is that? caller: good morning. i'm a retired military guy and we took shots from the time i was going to school and went into the military. we took shots that wasn't approved by the fda but it didn't hurt us. i think what the president is doing trying to look out for the country. like we talk about the great

generation, what are we going to be called after we are gone? are we going to be the confused generation that didn't compromise? we didn't want to work together. that's what we have, we don't work together, won't listen to each other. the united states is a great country. we are a great country and a blessed country, but until we start working together we are going to have a lot of problems. thank you very much. host: robert, pennsylvania, business owner. what's your business? caller: taxi service. how are you? i have about 20 employees, none of them vaccinated and none of them wear masks. i'm recovering from covid right now. host: are you vaccinated or were you? caller: no, ma'am. host: what's your opinion about this? caller: the mandate, i think it

is wrong. a lot of people have said on both sides -- some people have underlying situation and they just can't get the shot it's not sometimes that people just don't want to get it. when people get in my cab, they can wear a mask or they can't. i don't know when america became china where you have to do something. i don't understand where -- i'd like to know the question of where are all these diseases coming from? because in the last two or three years, the world has been upside down. host: robert and pennsylvania. we will leave the conversation there for now. we will take a break and when we come back, we will talk with the american leader david hawking's about bob dole's influence on the senate plus the to do list for the senate.

next, we will take more of your calls during our open forum. start calling in now with public bob -- public policy issues on your mind. ♪ >> book tv, every sunday on c-span two features leading authors and their non-fiction books. watch coverage of the wisconsin book festival with discussions on history, technology, and the criminal justice system. the book "empire of rubber." and then experiences growing up in puerto rico and miami in her book "ordinary girl." jared adams with his book "redeeming justice." and then on afterwords, nicole

jones looks at american history, slavery, and its legacy. she is interviewed by new york university history professor stephen hahn. watch book tv every sunday on c-span2 and find a full schedule online, or watch online anytime at c-span.org. ♪ >> "washington journal"

continues. host: in honor of the late senator bob dole, flags are half-staff from the kansas city star obit, he entered in 1950 and in 18 years rose from the kansas house of representatives, county attorney, to the senate. he joined the gop ticket as a vice presidential candidate and ran twice unsuccessfully for the republican presidential nomination before becoming the presidential nominee in 1996 at age 73. he will lie in state at the nation's capital and lawmakers will be paying their respects and giving tributes. one of them is senator chuck grassley, republican of iowa. senator grassley, tell us about your friendship. when did you first meet? guest: first of all, thank you

for having me here to talk about bob dole and my mentor when i first went to the united states senate. i assumed that my first meeting with him -- i don't remember exactly -- but i was a member of the u.s. house when he was in his second term in the senate. i really got acquainted with him because i was campaigning for the united states senate in 1979 and 1980 and that was his first time to try to be president in the iowa caucuses. we interacted many times in the various counties that he was in, and he just practically lived in iowa for the winter of 1979 into 1980. the first thing about him is he was a mentor for me in the united states senate because he had been there 12 years when i was serving my first year. in my first year in the senate, i was able to get on the powerful finance committee,

least insane yorty. he beat -- in seniority. looking -- working closely with him there, and his coming from an agricultural state and me, we worked together on agricultural issues. he was just a friend and let me say one other thing before you ask a question. i have the good pleasure of visiting his apartment in washington, d.c., one week after his 98th birthday. if you had your eyes closed and just listened to him talk about the issues and his strong voice, you would know that he wasn't sick at all. that's how i remember him. host: tell us a little bit more about that visit. what were the issues you discussed? guest: i think we discussed just very generally the goings-on in

the congress of the united states and probably the division within the congress now between conservatives and liberals. and the lack of cooperation because that meant a lot to bob dole. he was a person that could work across state -- partisan lines. he's the sort of person that knew that you had to have republicans and democrats if you were going to get anything done. he knew that both people who were against and for the bill some way both of them had to have some victories. that's what made him a successful leader of the united states senate for the 11 or 12 years he was a republican leader and part of that he was a majority leader. host: what advice did he give you as your mentor? guest: i think the advice was that if you are going to get anything done in the united

states senate, you've got to do it in a bipartisan way. on agricultural issues i think the advice was that there's a lot of different interests between midwestern agriculture where we come from an southern agriculture and california agriculture, and some waves on agricultural issues, all of those have to be settled. you can't just expect because you are from iowa that you will get everything corn and soybean people want and forget about cotton and peanuts, etc. he taught me on international issues that the united states had to have a strong military because you know about his military background, being a war hero. the united states needed to be a leader. host: as you mentioned, he ran for president three times, spent a lot of time in iowa and became known as the third senator. you spent a lot of time with him in the state. do you have a fun story or any

story you can share of your memory of bob dole in iowa? guest: in the 1996 caucuses in iowa, i made a point of traveling with him on a regular basis, sometimes four or five meetings a day. i had the opportunity to introduce him and i thought making this person battle ready in politics and military, we always talked about going up hill 13. he corrected me it was hill 913 where he was wounded and in the hospital three years and never got the use of his right arm again because his shoulder was shattered by shrapnel. he was witty about correcting me those things. another thing that may sound a little weird but it was

particularly bob dole, at the end of the day, after four or five meetings campaigning in iowa for the republican nomination, whether we go to a hotel or get on the airplane to go to the next stop or a restaurant, he would say at the end of the day probably because he was tired, he would say "free at last, free at last so i ended my tribute to him -- "free at last, free at last." so i ended my tribute to him saying, "bob, free at last." host: he was known as the hatchet man. that was the nickname given to him for his leadership. tell us why in your opinion. guest: i think very seldom as

leaders, senator, chairman of the finance committee, what i call him a hatchet man. i think he got that reputation when he was vice president nominee in 1976. i was in the house of representatives then. i had a chance to introduce him in waterloo, iowa, campaigning for the ticket. and forward was a nice guy and wanted to be seen as a presidential candidate as a nice guy, but there were a lot of things republicans had to say bad about the democratic candidates and that was bob dole's job. he hit at it real hard and that's how he got that name. in the end, long time layer -- long time later, he apologized for that role he had that wasn't typically bob dole, because bob dole could be strong but he was

also witty. as a vice presidential candidate, he didn't tend to be very witty, just attack. i don't think he was comfortable. senator grant -- host: senator grassley, what do you think about him getting the honor of lying in state? guest: i think for several reasons but most importantly being wounded, a war hero, defending our country and freedom and liberties, and outstanding public servant, attribute as he was somewhat disabled, a tribute to what he did to help disabled people through the disability acts of 1991 or whatever it was past -- whenever it was passed. he came up from a life of poverty and was helping people with food stamps, medicaid, downtrodden.

he knew their life and respected that and founded public policies that would lead to better life for people that are lower income or in poverty. he never forgot his roots. if i was to honor him, put him in state like he's going to lie in state today, those are some of the things i would think are right for doing it. in this day of so much partisanship, it is important that he always tried to work across the party lines and he was successful in doing it. and that's what we need today. host: senator chuck grassley, thank you, sir, for sharing your thoughts. guest: thank you very much. host: the late senator will lie in state, the 33rd person to lie in state in the nation's

rotunda, the 35th lying in state overall inside of the capitol building on your screen. as senator grassley was talking about his kansas roots, he grew up poor. from "the kansas city obituary," one duty as county attorney he says he never forgot was signing well their checks come -- welfare checks, including for his grandparents. those -- his only child, daughter robin, was born. a little history about the late senator. we are going to talk to one of the reporters who wrote that obituary of senator dole, coming up on "washington journal." we are in an open forum and any public policy issue that's on your mind, we want to hear it. emma in new york, a republican. caller: i've actually voted

democrat my whole life but i don't like the direction the democrat party is going in. i have a quote from the aclu from 2009 -- "forcing people to choose between vaccination and losing their job is coercive, invasive, and unjustifiably intrudes upon their fundamental rights." this was the aclu and i think they have completely shifted their thinking. i believe in protecting people's bodily autonomy. i don't think people should be forced to get the vaccine if they don't want it. host: david in hagerstown, maryland, independent. caller: how are you doing? can you hear me? host: we can. caller: like the previous caller, i've always been a democrat but now i find myself as a voter. i find myself more in line with the republican party with this

vaccine mandate. in my opinion, it is just unjust. sorry, i am out of breath. while i was working this pandemic, i was part of the essential workers, quote unquote, so i was made to work, no vaccine, no mitigation, just face masks and sanitation and that's it. now that we have this vaccine, in my opinion it's not really a vaccine, we are being forced to quit, virtually, or choose between our job and the vaccine. in my opinion, i respect science and i love science in fact. i think there should be more consequence about the virus. i don't think that's publicized enough. we should know the ins and the outcome, the good and the bad, not just here, take this vaccine, it's going to protect you. furthermore, it's very messed up for people to say you are

unvaccinated so you are infecting people who are not vaccinated when in reality, that's not how vaccines work. if i have the vaccine, i should go wherever i want without fear of >> a republican. caller: good morning. how are you. i am calling about the spike in crime in this country. it has been reported that in philadelphia, los angeles, democratic run cities, it affects the black community more than ever. i want to want -- i wonder how any black american can support the democrats because the democrats are trying to kill off the black people. they call every day complaining how republicans are racist when

it seems like the democrats are the ones who are actually killing black will. -- people. host: jericho new york. independent. caller: good morning. it is not widely known, but it ought to be known that there is no mandate for vaccines for members of congress. also, the fact that so far, over 200 members of congress have received ivermectin as a preventative. host: where did you read that? caller: i heard it from gary on wb why radio in new york. host: go ahead and finish your thought. caller: excuse me?

host: go ahead. caller: also, the fact that this vaccine is very dangerous for a lot of people, and the doctor who won the nobel prize in medicine for the discovery of aids, said that those who have received vaccine are taking time bombs because for everyone who has received it, it causes blood clots and usually they are very minor, but they do exist. unfortunately, in some people, it leads to very serious, fatal complications such as stroke or heart attack. i heard children, like a boy who was 16 years old, perfectly

healthy, the day after he received the vaccine, he died of a heart attack. unfortunately, this type of thing has not been reported by the media. it has been covered up. i hope that you, on your program, are open-minded in other areas, and you will take the opportunity to have some of these very distinguished doctors and scientists who oppose the vaccine for safety reasons, have them on the program, and bring this information to the public. host: got it. dennis in williamsport, pennsylvania. democratic caller. caller: thank you for taking my call. i would like to read think is at headline. area hospitals are overwhelmed by covid patients.

by the way, fred geller, unfortunately, is our representative. area hospitals are overwhelmed by covid patients. the medical center, that is one of our main hospitals in this area, 302 inpatient covid patients. 90% of which are not vaccinated. 8% are vaccinated, and more than six months ago, only 2% were vaccinated in the last six months. this is absolutely ridiculous. this is a very heavy trump area. people will not get vaccinated, and this pandemic is not going to stop unless they get vaccinated, and the hospitals and personnel are baking people because they are so overwhelmed. jersey shore hospital, geithner hospital, and every patient but

one was a covid patient. also, the gazette happens to be a pretty night ring -- right ring newspaper, and it has a cartoon of a guy standing there with a caption -- i won't wear a mask and won't get vaccinated, and why haven't you ended the pandemic? he is hollering at the president. he is saying that to the president. we know the answer. people will not get vaccinated. they will give you covid and overload the system. have a nice day. thank you. host: daniel, republican. caller: how are you doing? host: i am doing well. what is on your mind? caller: right now, i have my vaccination, and i'm going to a job.

you can go online [indiscernible] . america and the united states. it is a hard time going online and fill out an application online for a job. it is very hard and difficult. [indiscernible] right now, as i have found with education online, i am having a very hard time. it is for the american people right now. host: atlanta, georgia. independent. hello, can. -- kent. caller: i recently got over covid, and after i got over it,

i don't want anything like that ever again. i don't wish it on anybody. i could see where you might want to take a shot, but i believe that should be a person's right if they want to take it. they shouldn't have the right to force a person to take something they don't feel comfortable in taking, but i would ask everyone, as a person that survived it, to please think real hard about taking it because you don't want covid. i am telling you, it is the worst thing i have ever dealt with, and after 11 years, i have dealt with a lot, but that was something else. think about it, at least. host: new jersey. democrat. hello, liz. caller: good morning. i am calling about vaccinations.

i think that as a nation, we do need to mandate this vaccination as we did for many others. the man from central pennsylvania, i am familiar with that area, and their hospitals are being overrun. they are anticipating that will be in the er, vaccination wise, we can expect in the winter months to lose 10,000 americans each week. that will persist until we get till the spring, march and april. you are talking over 100,000 more dead americans. that is not necessary. we do have a way of not preventing someone from getting affected -- infected, but preventing you from ending up in

a graveyard or hospitalization. i think we will not get out of this pandemic this year, next year, or the following year, as long as we have about 30% who stubbornly refused to take the vaccination shots. host: i will leave it there. probably you have called in, hang on the wind. we will come back to you in just a minute. for those of you that are watching and want to call in, do that now. we will go back to phone calls in just a minute. joining us now is representative out of kentucky. he is the chair of the budget committee. in morning. we want to get an update from you on the debt ceiling debate. why does the debt limit need to be increased? guest: good to be with you. the debt limit has to be increased because the government

will be unable to pay all of its bills and it will have to prioritize what it pays based on how much money is available at any particular time. we have a debt limit. a statutory debt limit in effect for over 100 years, but we have never defaulted on her debt, and despite that, debt has continued to increase over 100 years. we are the only country in the world that has a debt limit that works like this. it is an absurd policy. clearly, has not done anything to restrain the debt, which was its original intent. we have raised to 80 times now and it has been routine. it is unfortunately highly polarized. this becomes politicized, just like everything else. the absurdity of the argument right now, that public information, they think this is a democratic debt, and they are being asked to pay for it.

that is not accurate at all. as a matter of fact, we will continue to increase the national debt under republican tax cuts. we will still have to cover that debt in the debt increase, no matter what other things we do. we ought to abolish it. at least, we ought to give the administration the authority to raise the debt limit by themselves, subject to congressional override. but we cannot continue to allow this brinksmanship that goes on. it creates instability were none should exist. host: there is a december 15th deadline looming to increase this debt limit. there has been a deal struck in the senate for a procedural vote to move forward. explain how this process will work? it sounds like republicans are on board. caller: it sounds like they are

on board enough to get it done. i don't want to get into the weeds of the reconciliation process to raise the debt limit t. it would require 60 votes to move forward to raise the debt limit. republicans have resisted that. what they requested us to do, which we did days ago, was to pass a bill that would allow them to bypass the 60 vote requirement and impasse -- pass the 60 votes and we could pass the debt limits with just a majority vote in the senate. it is a senate rule that necessitates this action. mitch mcconnell is on board and ray mullen is on board. with those three, we should be able to get this process to go

forward. hopefully they will do it today, and the president will sign it and they can come back in a couple of days to pass the debt limit so that we can avoid default around december 15. again, we have never defaulted on the debt. we cannot. even the republicans who refuse to vote for it say we cannot default. it is an unusual situation. host: is the house done voting on this? guest: the house would have to vote on the process. basically, it facilitates the senate doing what they need to do. once the senate passes the extension of the debt limit, they will increase debt limit and send it back to us. they will probably get that back and we will be able to vote at that point and keep the company from defaulting. host: there is other work to do -- yesterday, speaker pelosi

predicted that congress, before the holidays, would pass the social spending opposable -- proposal. build back better. give us an update. guest: we've passed in the house. it is one of the most transformative pieces of legislation in the history of the country. it is the most forward-looking piece of legislation in the country. it is now sitting in the senate. it is being done about reconciliation, which is a very complicated budget process which allows the senate to pass something with a simple majority. in the house -- in the senate, it is 50-50. we have to have every democratic vote, and right now, at least joe manchin and kyrsten sinema have said they are not prepared to vote for it to pass, yet. they are making changes in it. the process is making sure that every provision in the bill,

which is 2500 pages right now, it complies with the rules for reconciliation, and the parliamentarian is working through that in the senate with members and staff. the majority leader wants to get it done by christmas time. they hope they can get it done. my sense is that right now, senator manchin does not think it is likely, and we need every one of the democratic votes. early next year, we will pass something that is close to what the house passed. we will then ratify it, and once again, in the house, we can actually start explaining to the american people how this will benefit them. it benefits them in so many ways. it creates a foundation. the economy is much stronger and much more secure.

it will help deal with climate change and affordable housing, and childcare -- early childhood education. it would also extend the tax credit $200 a month. host: thank you for giving us an update on the democratic to do list. we appreciate your time as always. guest: thank you. host: back to your calls in the open forum this morning. karen in honolulu. republican. thank you for getting up. caller: i just want to -- there was a democrat congressman right there is full of crab. the tax cut means that more american people needs to keep their money. congress needs to stop spending our money. they need to do better with our money and we need to spend it the way we need to spend it to take care of our families. the reason i call is about the

inner cities. we need to take the habitual killers and criminals and put them on a remote island, like an island and who why it which was a target for the navy, and have them clean the island up and get away from society forever. host: bob in kansas city. democrat. caller: let's real quick on the vaccination mandate -- you know what? the folks that are against it? host: the folks that are against it? caller: those that are against it, power to them. if i am an insurance executive on wall street or downtown. , and i've got 5000 drones 11 doors down from me doing underwriting, let's raise

insurance rates for those that do not want to have their workers vaccinated. that will make it change their minds real quick. thank you so much. have a good day. host: wilmington, illinois. independent. caller: how are you? i find it very disheartening to hear all of these people crying about vaccination mandates when people like me and 50 million others who suffer from chronic pain are being denied treatment every day. if we look at the numbers since trump's opioid commission, will find out that since that started in may of 2017, over 200 million additional in the united states, not including the 1000% increase in overdose, 350% into suicide,

we are talking about a 500% increase in liver and kidney disease death because patients are told hey. use tylenol and advil instead. we are seeing what do you call it? people are suffering from a massive heart attacks that are increasing. the veterans department just announced that 53,000 veterans emphatically do not fit into the algorithms for life or death mortality. this is why. we are treating them like criminals. nobody seems to care about that. they are just worried about the fact that i may have to get a vaccine to save my neighbor. host: democratic caller from

florida. what is on your mind? caller: i wanted to call washington journal two assure myself that you are more intelligent than fox news viewers. if you don't get vaccinated, and the virus days alive and mutates into something that could kill the human race. how is that for logic or liberty? thank you. host: jennifer in california. republican. hello, jennifer. caller: i called the wrong line. i am a democrat. i know you don't appreciate that. i was in the dark. i do believe survival of the fittest. i am a lifelong democrat, and i'm seeing it come to fruition. i am vaccinated and i would take five more fit would keep me alive and my grandchildren so i can see them both get married.

unfortunately, selfish people have decided to take us down with them. i don't appreciate it. i don't appreciate that they let people go on and on about vaccines killing people, but they leave it in the air. have a good day. host: brian in san diego. caller: the problem with the gop is that the gop is a cold. they have gone all in on a racist dictator. all the problems we have had since trump was in office, covid, everything, it is tearing apart the country. he doesn't respect people's votes. doesn't expect people to have a say. he wants them to be like russia. the gop must lose at every turn. they are no longer in democracy. it is an authoritarian dictatorship.

we are in deep trouble, and we have to make sure that democracy is wise. if you love this country, if you respect people, they've got to go. the gop must be eliminated. they have to lose at every turn until they come around and become more diverse. they embrace american values. the values of our parents. those they grew up with. they are no longer part of the gop. they are trying to take money and lie to people. it is sad. we have to stick together if we want to save this country. host: kevin is a democrat in moncton, maryland. caller: i'm not democrat, i am republican. i don't know why it he couldn't get my name right.

this is the first mandate on the virus. i believe. listening to these collars, i don't understand how people are so lost. they're talking about one of the worst things trump did, and they need to wake up and see that he was trying to bring american jobs back and build things better. host: all right. karel in race city, georgia. republican. we are talking about public policy issues. caller: good morning. i am the former mayor of a small town in georgia, and a former candidate for the governor of georgia, and i am telling you that this goes past our party system, democrat, republican, whatever party you are in, and it has to do a lot with where our country is going over the years. i think one of the things we are

missing is just a moral aspect of who we used to be as americans. with regards to vaccines, everything else we are dealing with, we have to come back to what we used to believe, and that is god. people don't want to talk about that. that is not possible -- popular these days. what if we get back to what we first believed, we will have this myth about government today. host: democratic caller. hello, jack. caller: just a couple of comments. term limits -- people think we like them. i think the term limits should be something we establish. if we love our representatives and senators, they can just sit one out or seek a different position in government. they would be allowed to run for the original seat that we all liked. maybe that would help with discussion on that.

also, i have been watching a racecar on tv. a racecar event where they interview the driver. they have emblems and sponsors. they are proudly displayed on their clothing. maybe politicians could have a red or green jacket or some symbol to what already they belong to, and on their lapel, their top three donors could be displayed prominently so we have a better idea of exactly who we are talking to. host: pennsylvania. more calls coming up in just a minute. joining us now is brian lowery. he is a white house correspondent with the newspaper, and he and his colleagues broke the obituary for bob dole in the kansas city star. brian, let's begin with your opening of the obituary.

excuse me. i need to find it. there we go. you write, bob dole, the son of a couple who survived a crippling nazi fire. fell short of his highest ambition, the presidency, and he died on sunday. i want to begin with what he meant to kansas. guest: he will be lying in state, and he is the first kansan to do it since eisenhower. dole is on a level of eisenhower. he is a true icon of politics. eventually, he was beloved to parties, but certainly in republican leading states. he was someone among politicians who learned from pat roberts, who retired, and was said to be

part of the american delegation that worked for dole. it -- he was someone who is part of state politics and had a huge amount of influence in the state. even long into his retirement. host: how did kansas shape him? guest: kansas certainly shaped in. it is key that dole grew up in western kansas. he grew up in a small town that produced two united states senators. another one was from russell. he came from a small kansas town, he went to the university of kansas and he eventually found himself in washington among the east coast elite. he was very comfortable in washington, but very much had his values defined by western kansas. his initial house district that he represented is the sprawling

district that covers about two thirds of the state. it is called the big first. dole laid out the map that the representatives who represented -- both of the state current senators had that house eat. host: as you noted in the obituary, how did he become a republican? guest: the story is that dole was not necessarily -- she was a war hero, so both parties wanted him. they wanted him to run, and i think the republican party made a better pitch. it is for boating that dole was first elected -- foreboding that dole was first elected in the 1950's, shortly after the war as a young man. he was elected to the statehouse and he became a county attorney. republicans were the dominant branding kansas, and dole embraced that and really became a loyal party member over the

years. that includes well into his later years when his endorsements were made. host: did he have democratic tendencies, or what -- why did he reach across the aisle and surprise people with certain legislations that they wouldn't think a republican would vote for? guest: that is key to two aspects. one, he wanted to get things done. ultimately, dole was someone who wanted to accomplish things, and he would be happy with getting 80% of what he wanted, rather than 0%. he wanted compromise. as he evolves, he became a master of the art of compromise. he also -- you noted, the whole champion disability. he was disabled after surviving that gunfire in world war ii. he was making speeches in the united states about civilian

rights, and the cause of champion to make sure there is bipartisan support for the eight pa. he continued to champ old -- champion the cause of voting rights after he retired. he made sure that he was paired with food stamps, paired with policy to ensure that people were fed. that comes from a dustbowl upbringing. dole believed in the governments ability to fund. host: what about the impact of his service in world war ii? talk about the injury and when he got back, the uphill battle he faced to recover and recuperate from head injuries. guest: it is something that defined him. it is something noted in the obituary. there was a fund raised for dole during the recovery. it was about $1800. it was a large sum.

he kept a box. for the rest of his life, it sat on his desk. he had to survive, and he had to figure out ways to have a life that was full after he lost the use of his arm. as he got older, he continued to have issues with his body, and there was a very iconic moment a few years ago, when he got up to salute george h w bush when he lay in state. obviously, another war hero. he turned a leader. he got helped to raise out of his wheelchair to salute a fellow hero of world war ii. it was a world war ii experience that defined him and his commitment to public service. host: what about his wit and

humor that people would talk about who knew him, but did not translate to the public knowing that side of him? guest: he maintained that his entire life. he had a sharp tongue. as we look at the state of bipartisanship, some people noted that he had a caustic wit. he could have a great one-liner. he could have a great putdown, but he also enjoyed putting himself down. i did with him one of his final interviews in december of 2020. as we get to the end of the interview, i said, senator dole, you have been generous with your time. i don't want to take up more of it. he came back and said i don't have anything to do. we can keep talking. he was 97, and he had this wit, would make fun of himself, would make fun of republican politicians, it was part of his

personality. never let a good joke -- he never wasted a good joke. host: as we approach this morning, his laying in state in the capital and the attributes that will be given to him, what do you think will be his legacy? guest: dole has an all-encompassing legacy in kansas politics. generations of politicians learned from him. if you look at people who went on to serve as governor, senator, they often beat dan there careers as interns for dole's, so they had a long lineage of people who work for him, but it was also a legacy in terms of legislation. you have to get back to the civil rights issue. his role is insuring the bipartisan work for the ada, crafting something that is important. it was an unfinished legacy, as well.

postretirement, dole championed a u.n. treaty on disability rights. unit -- the united states was one of the only nations that did not ratify it. a committee of republican senators that will be offering tributes today and tomorrow will be voting against that. one thing you need to look at for dole's legacy is his commitment to disability rights, his commitment to reaching across the aisle and getting things done. host: brian lowery with newspapers. i read your obituary in the kansas city star. bob dole, war hero, presidential candidate, dies at age 98. thank you for your time. guest: thank you for having me. host: from the senate floor, bob dole in 1996 -- here is a portion of his address to the chamber. >> i don't know how the

political process works, and some people do not trust it. but the people who watch us day in and day out have a better understanding. some people tell me, and i remember the speaker telling me just 10 minutes ago, he really understands now more about the senate. we have different rules. i love the house of representatives. i never want to be the house chair. i wanted to be in the senate. i want to be in the senate where you have unlimited debate, where any senator on either side can stand up and talked until they drop. the record is held by this presiding officer, senator thurman. amen. [applause]

>> that is why i would be an after dinner speaker as well. [laughter] >> i think sometimes we have to have everything. we have to have total victory. i will not settle for less. it must be my way, or no way. ronald reagan said once, if i didn't get 90% of what i want, i would be a pretty good deal. 90% is pretty dad -- isn't bad. you can get the other 10% later. some people never understand that. take the 90. work on the 10. i want to say that i granted my

resignation and my decision to leave caused astonishment in some quarters. i don't begrudge anyone surprise. i want to disabuse anyone about the senate. this is a great opportunity. there are hundreds of thousands of people who would give anything they had to be a member of this body. that's the way it should be. that is for the united states itself. this body is a reflection of america. it is what america is all about. we come from different states and backgrounds. different opportunities.

different challenges in our life. the institution has its imperfections, occasional inefficiency. we are like america. we are still a work in progress in the united states senate. host: the late senator bob dole in 1996 after securing the republican nomination and retiring from the senate. he was 73 years old then and he will lie in state in the united states capital today. we heard from brian lowery just a moment to go about what he called an iconic moment when george h w bush was lying in state in the capital and then senator bob dole insisted he get help to stand. let's watch.

[no audio] host: bob dole saluting his fellow world war ii veteran, george h w bush. now, the late senator will lie in state himself today, becoming the 33rd person to lie in state in the nation's rotunda. he is the 35th person overall. flags are half-staff today to honor him. president biden will pay tribute today, this morning, coming up. we will have coverage of those remarks along with other dignity -- dignitaries. here is a picture. the casket will lie on the lincoln catapult. the platform used for services in the capital since 1865. biden, pelosi, schumer, and mcconnell are all expected to speak this morning.

we are in an open forum this morning. we are talking about public policy issues that are on your mind. thank you for waiting. john, democrat caller. caller: i have been held on the phone for so long that i forgot what i was going to talk about. host: i am sorry. caller: i believe in the vaccine. i think you should get it. we need to get out of this pandemic, and so forth, and get the country back on track. it is an example to the rest of the world, and we are showing how divisive we are now. the vaccine is working. all of the people are not going to the hospital. we've had seven or 8000 people so far. it is ridiculous. we need to do something about it . put an end to this pandemic. thank you. host: you can call into this open forum.

republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independence, (202) 748-8002. here's a tweet. what about the people who have to work next to the unvaccinated? don't those lives matter? mary, democratic caller, good morning. caller: good morning. since it is open forums, i want to address the other callers and see if they have anything to say about yesterday. it was reported by the daily mail, the washington times, the new york post and it said that they were called to the white house and a message was sent out

to the main stream media, one of the headline said, meet in secret. the white house was asking the press to be kinder and give president biden better news coverage. i was wondering if your forum heard anything about that, and if you could bring up a bs story , i think it was reported yesterday. i think mr. biden is getting pretty darn good coverage. he doesn't give the press any open forums like we are having, so everything is preset and i would like to see our president get up and take questions from the public.

to the press, the country is watching. we have open eyes, and we know what is going on. thank you. host: susan in south dakota. democrat caller. caller: good morning. i am just -- i don't know. i am very emotional about bob dole's passing. i happened to watch something with him and elizabeth though. it was a very long interview, which is not something i would sit -- typically sit and watch. it reminded me of the integrity and the morals and the common human decency that we are lacking in our politicians these days. you know, their legacies are not going to be similar to bob dole's. their legacy is going to be one of chaos. disruption. you know, a lot of people are

talking about vaccines this morning. i wish that was our only problem. i see, and i hate to bring up his name, but, since trump was president, this country has fallen into a bowl of hate. now, we have all of these crimes. we even had a shooting, just pulling up to a stop light in south dakota. someone shot someone. we have politicians that are doing nothing but following trump, and they are not making honorable decisions. the same with the supreme judges. where is the awning -- honor and dignity in our politicians? host: i will leave it there for now. coming up on c-span, coverage of bob dole lying in state. i hope you continue watching here on c-span.org or if you are

up and about, download our re-c-span now video app, downloadable on any device. we will take it -- a break. when we come back, we will talk to david hawking's about senator bob dole's influence on the chamber and the to do list for the current senate and house lawmakers. we will be right back. ♪ >> american history tv, saturdays on c-span two. exploring the people and events that told this american story. at 2 p.m. eastern, on the presidency, gary ginsberg talks about the influence closest to the chief executive in his book, first friends. the powerful, unsung and unelected people who shaped our president. at 2:50 p.m., a look back with

coverage of the international conference of world war ii. here discussions on the road to war from americans. and the attack on african-americans. exploring the american story. american history tv, saturday on c-span two and find the full schedule on your program guide or watch online any time at c-span.org/history. >> c-span offers a variety of podcasts and there is something for every listener. weekdays, washington today gives you the latest from the nation's capital. every week, book notes plus has interviews with writers about their latest work the weekly uses audio from our immense archive to look at how issues of the day developed over the years. and our series talking list gives extensive conversations with historians about their work

many of our television programs are also available as podcasts. you can find them all on the c-span mobile app wherever you get your podcasts. >> washington journal continues. host: david hawking's is with us. he is the editor with the editor -- with the watcher. he is a long time viewer. guest: the american leader is a nonprofit news site that is seeking to focus on four issues. the rise in the debt, access to health care, voting rights and climate change. we are focusing on those four stories. at the american leader, we believe those are the four biggest challenges faced by the country. it is a step back from the daily news and trying to talk about progress on all four of those. what they -- interesting ideas that are making progress on all

four of those. it is a fascinating project. american leader.org. we hope you check it out. host: you have been watching capitol hill and the presidency for many years. you have covered senator bob dole as well. what are your impressions on the impact he had on that chamber? guest: in norma's. i would argue that bob dole is probably the most -- in terms of how we shipped american policy -- the most influential republican in the second half of the 20th century who is not president. his imprint on american public policy from food stamps, social security, welfare, farm programs, hunger, school lunch, the american disabilities act, voting rights -- his imprint was essential to getting republican support.

in terms of his influence on the senate, he steered the senate in a way that it has not been steered since. you've probably set on the air, but up until mitch mcconnell broke his record in 2018, bob dole was the longest-serving senate republican leader in history. it is cliche to say that his death marks the end of an era, but this era ended a long time ago. it is hard for most people, members of congress, to remember what it was like wendell was in charge. -- when dole was in charge. there are only eight centers left who were there, and only seven house members. they do not understand his style. he would put people in a room on all sides of an issue, go down the hallway and say, come tell me when you figure this out. have you got it done yet?

have you figured it out? these would be people on both sides, people who disagreed. he would be the essential compromise maker. he was not -- he was acerbic, but he was ultimately a man who believed in the art of the deal. that is an art lost on all members of congress. host: here we are today. the justice department is suing states over redistricting and the justice department is referencing the closing of the voting rights act. democrats on capitol hill are trying to pass voting rights legislation. back in 1982, then senator bob dole crafted a compromise for a 25 year extension of those voting rights. guest: some people here that and they say i'm not sure what you said. a republican leader got this extended?

right. one point, there was one vote by voice. i'm not even sure the senate he ever recorded a vote on it. it was so uniformly agreed upon. and now, i think i can do this in one sentence, essentially the supreme court, through the voting rights act, -- throughout the voting rights acts in 2013. it said that the methodology for getting permission from washington before making changes to the rules, the methodology was out of date. but the supreme court suffered its own opinion and ask them to write a modern law. that was nine years ago. all it would take is for both sides to agree on a new formula for states and counties which have bad histories of racial discrimination in their politics. they should be required to get federal permission. republicans are not even talking

about this. there is no republican who is willing to go down that road now. that is how things have changed. host: what were his faults? guest: as i said, sometimes, the acerbic wit could be overbearing on people. his biggest political fault was that he was so affixed on accomplishment and finding problems and fixing them. he didn't really have a vision. this was the killer for him in 1996 when he ran for the presidency. he never articulated a forward-looking vision for the country, a mission statement for why he should be president. in 1990 six, famously, bill clinton's slogan was i want to build a bridge to the 20th century. the president and in 1996 would be president at the dawn of the money. dole said he went to do the opposite and build a bridge to an easier time.

that did not fly. that is not what the public was looking for. a lack of vision was one thing, and he had a short temper. he could be prickly. he was not the most articulate person in his syntax. it was chopping, mangled. he liked to put himself in the third person. he was not a great or greater. host: he was nicknamed the hatchet man. where did that come from? guest: we didn't get to the hatchet man. this is another marker of how politics have changed. the phrase hatchet man was supplied to him by another republican senator. it was a republican who coined the term. that was in the early 70's when bob dole was richard nixon's favorite senator. nixon loved the tartness and he sent bob dole out there to defend nixon at every turn, which he did. it was so over-the-top that

senator saxby of ohio coined the term and it stuck with him. acerbic and crippling. famously, when he was a vice presidential nominee in 17 -- 90 76 with gerald ford, he suggested that every war in the 20th century was a democrat war. he had some rhetorical stumbles, and the rhetorical stumbles magnified his reputation as a hatchet man. host: david hawkins is remembering bob dole as he lies his state in the rotunda of the capital today. we turn our attention to today's senate. yesterday, the vote to undo the president's vaccine mandate, how republicans strategically got that to the floor, and to

democrat sounded like they were convinced beforehand to vote with them. talk about that. guest: the two democrats, joe manchin and jon tester, they are arguably the two most moderate democrats in the senate. obviously, from very conservative states. relatively no vaccination rate, i should say. the methodology of this vote, it was a little surprising. how did that happen so quickly? there is no filibuster. no delaying. the republicans were able to take advantage of the law, relatively seldom invoked fast tracks to disapprove a federal regulation. at least through the senate there is no filibuster. there is no obligation on the house to similarly schedule a vote. speaker pelosi made it clear that there would be no

comparable vote in the house. in that sense, it is known on capitol hill as a free vote. a vote with ultimate consequences. you can vote to repeal the mandate without worry or without knowledge that it will ever actually become law. maybe if that's -- this had teeth, and it potentially had a mandate rule, it might have been different. host: i want to invite our viewers to join us in this conversation about the to do list before the holidays. maybe you have ideas of what you would like them to accomplish. republicans on (202) 748-8001, at democrats on (202) 748-8000 and independents on (202) 748-8002. you can also post on facebook.com.

what is the prospect of the president getting his so-called build back better agenda at social spending proposal through congress at december? guest: if there is a prospect for that happening, it is hard to see it happening before the end of the year. to mention it now for the second time, joe manchin, who now is out of central -- who is central to the biden agenda, some senators, including mitt romney have called him mr. president in the hallway, mansion is at the center of this. his vote is essential to getting this done. joe manchin has said repeatedly, as recently as friday, that there is no need to do this before the end of the year and it should not happen before the end of the year. he now says, joe manchin, that it should be it off until the first quarter of next year at

the earliest. he says to see what happens with inflation. if inflation continues to rise, in joe manchin's view, pumping another 2.2 trillion dollars of government money into the economy, it will accelerate the rise of inflation and he is behind the idea. unless there are secret negotiations happening, no one on capitol hill is aware of that. it will not happen before then. host: yesterday, during senate procedures and senators were waiting for more actions, senator manchin was on the senate floor on the republican side of the chamber, and he was surrounded by five or six rob -- republican senator callings. he was holding court with them and talking to them, and there was a lively conversation happening. what do you make of his relationship with senators on his side of the aisle and across the aisle. guest: i think centers across

the aisle, he is delighted to have the attention. joe manchin is an unabashed old-school politician. he was the governor of west virginia before he was in the senate. he loves the limelight and the attention. he loves the influence it gives him. this is not just an ego trip for him, although, as i said, he seems to enjoy that. he is actually trying to shake things at the edges, and not just the edges as we know about his attack on the climate provision, to benefit his state and get some of the things that he thinks would be good for the country and for west virginia, in particular. the republicans love him. they are egging him on, saying to keep moving -- tubing the goalposts and ask for more and more. let's hope you get a no on the bill. i am confident that some of the jocularity on the floor, would not be prudent. i am confident, come on joe

manchin. come to our site. this is where you belong. you represent the most republican state in the company. your views are way more socially and fiscally conservative than anyone in the democratic caucus. shouldn't you become a republican. so far, he has resisted that. so far, he has resisted that. on the others, the democrats don't want to make him too mad because they don't want to turn this into a personal or antagonistic fight that shapes his boat, but i think -- vote, but i think they are growing weary of this. host: let's go to calls. hi, ken. i need to push the button. there we go. caller: good morning, how are you? host: i am doing well, go ahead. caller: i would like for you to answer two questions.

it is basically a yes or no question. would bob dole fighting to extend the dividing roads -- voting rights act for 25 years, if that had, donald trump was in office, and he refused to extend it, would black people be able to vote, yes or no? guest: would they be able to vote? yes, they would be eligible. what they have more trouble voting because of restrictions by states? yes and that has what -- that is what has happened in 2020 and 2018 as well. host: ok, we go to bill. guest: it was a yes or no, but it was as fast as i can go. caller: good morning.

i was going to ask you about joe manchin switching parties, which i wish he would, that would make a big difference. when people like the previous caller talk about trump, one thing that he did i think that was very bipartisan was the prison reform and the criminal justice reform. people forget that. also, the unemployment rate for black and hispanic was unbelievably low. i really do not understand why republicans get such a bad rap in treating minorities. you look at the percentage of blacks in 2020 and hispanics and asians that voted for trump, i just don't understand it. i think it is just a red herring that the liberal democrats bring up. i would like your comments on all of that. guest: obviously, you are

correct that the president, former president trump, did better with black voters, a little bit better in 2020 than 2016. he did significantly better with tino -- latino voters in 2020. both parties are still trying to figure out why that is so. the democrats want to reverse that next time and republicans want to magnify it. some of it is cultural, some of it they believed. as many of his supporters do, he told it like it was, was outside the box. they like people who are outside the box. as to the criminal justice thing, it is an interesting point. you rarely heard about that when the president, when donald trump ran for reelection in 2020. you rarely heard him boast about

that that if you look back on those four years, that was one of the more significant and bipartisan domestic policy achievements of his time as president. it was interesting to me that he did not talk about it more. the reporting at the time was that he had to be talked into that in part by his son-in-law who was part of the negotiations on the. -- that. host: julie in rhode island. democratic caller. caller: hi. i am calling because i have a simple question. first of all, i appreciate this channel, but i wish you would not go democrat, republican, just american is the way i would like for this panel to be. however, my question to the guest is, you say that mr. manchin is feeding off his ego,

speaking with his fellow republicans, but when republicans are in the minority and the democrats are in the majority, do you ever see someone saying that -- someone like joe manchin has an ego issue and he loves the attention? i just think it is foolish to make a statement like that because joe manchin works for his constituents in his state. guest: i think both things can be true and i tried to say that. both things are true. it is both true and this is true of joe manchin and almost all politicians, in order to put yourself out there to be a member of congress, it is an ego bruising process and also an ego rewarding process. i think you have to have a healthy ego to be in the game or

in public service in a way that requires getting the approval of voters. i just think there are some who hide that aspect of their personalities under the proverbial bull, and there are those that don't. i think joe manchin is one that does not. he sort of takes joy in the game -- i use the word game. he takes joy in the political back-and-forth, in the negotiating and using all of that was at his disposal to get it done. ultimately, what is he about? he is about getting himself reelected, of course he realizes that west virginia had the most lopsided trump victory of any state in the country in 2020. and so, he wants to stand up for his constituents and do what most of them would want. and also uses leverage to get things in the bill that will benefit his state, particularly

his state. host: this is the front page of "the hill" newspaper. as voting rights advocates press lawmakers to eradicate the filibuster, joe manchin has been talking to republicans about making senate rule changes that would basically help this place work. this has not been reported before and what do you make of what kind of rule changes would be of read to -- agreed to? guest: it sounds like a codeword for the filibuster. maybe i have not had enough coffee yet, but i am sure what other roles changes other than rules to limit debate and to compel more legislative action by speeding the process or making it easier for members of both sides to get their ideas heard. maybe that is what we are talking about?

i don't know, but the ultimate rule in the senate is the filibuster rule and the requirement that almost anything of substance gets the 60 votes, lowering the threshold in some way, whether you call advancing the filibuster or not, is one thing that would move the process along. i would be fascinated to hear what he has to say. host: jonathan in canton, ohio. democratic caller. caller: good morning. i just would like to add to mr. hawkings' point of view, senator manchin not wanting to approve the civil rights part, and family leave and i would like to know what his view is or give me some information of what

is the initial reason why they don't want regular americans to have full leave and white mansion -- why manchin had to do that with the civil rights that he was talking to republicans and the republicans rejected it. i would like you to give a real view of what his agenda is. is he really like law and order? housing, paid leave, everything. host: let's get a response. guest: i think ultimately, senator manchin is more conservative in almost every way then essentially all of the other democrats now in the

senate. he gets the singular attention because he is genuinely unique. to go back to bob dole for just a second, when bob dole was the majority leader as late as 1996, there were half a dozen republicans in the senate that were more liberal than half a dozen democrats. there was an ideological overlap that may be accounted for 1/8 of the senate, ab 1/5 of the senate. . -- maybe 1/5 of the senate. that does not exist anymore. objective analysis has shown that for the last six or seven years, there has not been a single republican that is to the left of any democrat. the closest we get now is joe manchin among the democrats and maybe susan collins among the republicans, but even if you

look at all of their ratings by the interest groups and voting records, there is still no ideological overlap. as i said, mansion comes closest. -- manchin comes closest. it was hard for me to hear all of the particulars of the question, but joe manchin has said he thinks that a federal mandate for family leave is too much. he has said he supports aspects of that idea but that a mandate is too much. in general, he is a states rights guy. he is a long-term governor who believes in less power for the federal government and more power for the states. thanks the federal government should not do so much, spend some much, should not tax so much. host: bob in humble, texas. republican. caller: good morning.

i would like to ask mr. hawkings a very specific question. earlier, someone asked a comment on if the voting rights act came up now. his response was well, it would certainly limit minority participation. that is a common talking point the democrats make. i would like him to be specific. tell us what specifically would republicans be asking for that limits minority voting? the argument about registration is patently false. be specific. what is it that why you are responding the way you are? guest: i will give you one example because you are a texan. i will just point to what happened in texas in 2020.

and what your state legislature has done subsequently which was in texas, and i might not get all of the facts exactly right, but i think i got them. at one point, the state government in texas had a degree that there could be only one early vote dropbox in any one county, which as you know, there are more than 500 counties in texas. that meant that some people had to drive for three or four hours to drop off their ballot. in houston, harris county, one of the largest counties in the country, that met people from all over that county, many of whom are black and latino, as you know, have to go to ask ordinary levels to drop off their ballot. how did harris county respond?

harris county responded by trying to expand options for early voting to include drive-thru voting and other accommodations to try to allow people in houston, as i say, i believe the population is primarily white but not majority white, to cast their votes. in the state legislature came back and outlawed that. that is just one for instance. host: north carolina, democratic caller. caller: good morning. i have a, and a question. with afghanistan, they put all of the fault on biden, which he did not what was going on because he was not able to get the information before he became president. also, how do you feel about

syria, before they were -- how do you feel about how trump handled syria before they complained about that? guest: i'm not sure about your point about the trump -- president not having information about afghanistan. i do think he was given, it took a while because of president trump's protestations about the election results. eventually, there was a somewhat normal transition, and he did get right in on what was going on in afghanistan, and of course, let's remember that as a senator, he was the chairman of the formulations committee -- chairman of the foreign relations committee. i'm going to take a pass on syria. i'm going to plead no good memory about syria. host: ok, we will move in -- move on. caller: the reason why i am calling is because a few moments ago, you had someone named brian

as your guest. he was talking about dole. you mentioned the fact that dole's father was a democrat and he was so shocked about that. i am a retired teacher and retired journalist, and i just wanted to say that we must remember that all of the south, most of which was heavily laden with democrats including george wallace, the governor of mississippi, and all of the republic -- all of the southern states. republicans were in the north and had become democrats ever since lincoln freed the slaves, who was a republican. to rebel, they became democrats. host: ok, i was noting in

senator dole's obituary that in 1950 when he entered politics, his father was a democrat, but he became a republican. both parties were vying for him to run on their ticket because he was a world war ii veteran and he had earned the purple heart in his military service. i am curious what your thoughts are. guest: i do know i was not there, but right. this is russell, kansas, about 150 miles west into kansas. dustbowl, depression. that is the environment bob dole grow up -- grew up. dad ran a small dairy, mother sold sewing machines door-to-door. he grew up a democrat, but he also, and this goes back a little while ago about vision, when he got recruited to start

running for office, that area has started to turn republican. he made a calculated strategic decision that it was going to be easier to get elected and to rise politically as a republican, so he switched parties. host: audrey in south carolina. democratic caller. caller: hey. i would like to ask you a question regarding joe manchin. did you believe that those things that he is holding are going to cost the democrats the majority in the house and senate? because a lot of that stuff that president biden ran on, $15 minimum wage, the college --

host: we take your point. but it cost them the majority in 2022? guest: i think yes, it could. i think that is the simple answer is that the people who voted to elect joe biden and with it, a democratic control of washington for the first time in quite a while, they expected results. the president has so far, he is trying, but he is trying to capitalize on the results that he has come up with so far. remember, there was a relatively expensive covid relief package in march. we now have the so-called hard infrastructure bill that is the biggest investment in actual tangible public works in about two decades. i'm not sure that unless he delivers on more of this with a version of build back better, that is going to compound his

already steve path. of course, there are lots of other reasons why 2022 will be different for the democrats. the president's party always does poorly in the first midterm after he is elected, redistricting is going to make life easier for republicans to do well, but yes, they want to see results, bidens base. there's a strong sentiment among democrats that this might be our only chance to actually shape policy for the next decade. we better make hay while the sun shines. that is the expression. host: david hawkings reporting is, you can find that online.

always appreciate the conversation with you. thank you. guest: thank you so much. host: now joining us on the phone is former senator alan simpson. represented wyoming, a republican from 1979 to 1997. as we prepare to show our viewers the arrival of your late friend to the capital where he will get the honor of lying in state, tell us about your friendship with him. guest: it was a wonderful thing for me. i deeply regret that i could not be there. i had hip surgery about three or four months ago. i did not want to be weaving around in that rotunda. i had done that before with george bush and it is a great honor. i was elected assistant leader when he was an elected leader and served with him for 10 years.

i was in the infantry and he was obviously a combat veteran. i told them i would be your first lieutenant and he would be the captain and you don't have to worry about me. there are footsteps behind the waiting to take your job and i will go over the hill for you. we did that and we had a wonderful relationship based upon intelligent. i do beg your pardon, and we loved to legislate. we were both partisan, but he worked well with the other side. he worked well with george mitchell and robert byrd and tom daschle. we got the job done. we were not there as republicans and democrats but as republicans. -- as americans.

that would be embarrassing to be in congress now to see a man with an d behind his name and he is ugly or an r behind his name and he has a monster. i can just tell you that things came up and we dealt with the decibel disability act, we go with immigration -- the disability act, we dealt with immigration. there is no such thing as a partisan immigration bill, that is monstrous and bizarre. he was a genial giant and wonderful guy to work with. had a very delicious sense of humor which did not escape me and we had a solid background of doing something. as the john said just a few minutes ago. and they are gumming it up and are going to.

if you can do it all the democrats or republicans, -- if you can diddle the democrats or republicans, you win the prize. host: did he have a saying he would go to when he talked about let's get it done? what would he say to you and others? guest: we would be in a conference committee with the other side. i worked for john dingell of the house. he was a real powerhouse. we would be grappling along. i did the cursing for him. bob dole did not curse, but he would say -- he could out hit george carlin. he would go hit that guy up and get him on our side. he would have the pen in his hand and say, are you guys done? you were there for a day and you are done are you? and we would say, get out of here.

we had not even started the combat. he had a look and i would say it was of urgency but always humor. he would just come around the corner and say, did you do what i asked you? did you get that done? boy, and my office was right across the hall from his. i had a vision of being hunted if he showed up and said, did you get that done, talk to mclure? i don't think he took a lot of notes, i don't remember that. he loved politics. you could sit with him at a dinner party and say, i think there is an election in the third district of massachusetts tonight. check on that.

just a few weeks ago, we talked. i talked with him quite often and i'm deeply regretful that my physical presence is not there because i love the guy and i wanted to pay him tribute. host: why did you love the guy? guest: because he was honest with me. there were times when he had a tough sense of humor. there was an event would happen and it was reported in the baltimore paper. i went to him and said, i tell you bob, that really hurt me what you said. i can't quite remember what it was, but i did not want my name tied with agnew. his job just hit his chest. he said, what do you mean? i said, that hurt me. he said, i would not do anything to hurt you. you have been wonderfully loyal to me and that is not even a

question. i said no, but that is the way i felt about it. he never said a word about that. it was never any little things that happened. to him, it was just a toss off line. to me, it's deemed -- it stinged or stung. that was the basis of our friendship. honesty and friendship and clarity and an affection. elizabeth and ann got along well together. he commanded my heart and of all

the 30, 40, 50 years of politics for me, i had a checkered past. he was the fun part. he was the tenure of the juiciest part of the fruit. host: what do you remember about his humor? guest: there was a bluebird -- blue beard society, a bunch of us very interested in his election at the last time he ran for president. it was decided at that little gathering not by his staff, the ones that i worked with, sheila berg and all the rest of them, it was the people who took over the campaign. i remember their names and they

said bob, you cannot use humor in your election for president. i said, that is like cutting off his leg. what do you mean you can't use humor? that is his mark, that is his trademark is humor. and so we watched during the campaign, there was a woodness to him. there was a look that would come across his face like he would like to punch one out and say something about an area or a person and the clock would go off in his head like no, they told me not to use humor. i thought that was the worst thing i had ever heard from a presidential advisor. i still remember the guys name who pulled him into that one. you either go with what you got

or forget it. and so those are the things that i remember. he would have been a great president. he was an administrator, followed things, paid attention. he loved politics. you cannot hate democracy and love politics or vice versa. he loved democracy and he loved politics. both of them. he was very good at both of them. host: what did you make of his nickname "the hatchet man?" guest: put it this way, i have been called everything. if you don't have a thick skin -- when he said that to george bush, and let us all remember that when he said that harshly to george bush, quit lying about

my records, and then mondale said he is the hatchet man, don't forget the later part of all of that. that during the part george bush was president, there was not a single republican senator that voted more to favor and support george bush than bob dole, including me who was a very close friend of the president. that is the way it was. add them all up and tell the ones you just pick out of the air and say, try this. i have been called everything. baby killing, clear loving son of a bitch. how does that work? people say, do you have a thin skin? i said, you could not find my skin with an electron microscope. it hurts. when you tell people we are all human beings and it hurts, let me tell you when i see stuff

slinging around here and who is pushing it, it is distressing for this country. guest: it sounds like the senator will be remembered for his loyalty. his loyalty to his colleagues, loyalty to president nixon and george bush. what do you make of that? guest: i think that was one of his extraordinary things. i tell you what he did one day, he went to mitchell, the opposition and he said, what if i bring nixon and have a joint session with the senators, just senators, and ask nixon anything you want to? i have never forgotten that. everybody showed up and they asked hard questions of nixon. he did not use a note. he covered domestic policy,

foreign policy. when he finished, they gave him a standing ovation. they being the democrats and republicans of the u.s. senate. that is what he did. he tried to keep people together. he would tell us we have a bigger agenda than trying to -- clinton. beside -- if i tried that, that would be like the roadrunner thing. he rolled up the bomb and throw it down there and bill would pick it up and roll it around and roll it right back to him. he did not waste any time doing tricks. no tricks. cunning, but no tricks. host: alan simpson, thank you, sir, for your time this morning. guest: you are very welcome. bye bye. host: the late senator bob dole will lie in this morning inside

the u.s. capitol in the rotunda. that ceremony will get underway shortly here. we expect the arrival of the casket in about 10 minutes or so. president biden is slated to deliver marks along with senator mcconnell, the leader of the republican party in the senate. nancy pelosi also expected to speak. all of our coverage of that will happen right here on c-span, on our website, or you can download our video app called c-span now. you can get it on any mobile device. william in glenrose texas. we are still in open forum and we appreciate you waiting on the line. caller: i am william, 88 years old. i was raised during world war ii. we sent a congressman or a senator to washington to represent the constituents he had in this state.

but when he gets there, he changes his loyalty from his constituents to whoever is running the senate of the congress. he is not thinking about the people that voted him in the re. and today, you turn the tv on and there is somebody committing treason by making treasonous states, tearing down our country, tearing down everybody in authority. where has treason gone? when i was a kid, if i had set i'm going to take down the united states of america, or the biden administration, i would be in jail. i would be under the dang jail. where is loyalty to our country and the people that are here? host: rosetta in danville, virginia. democratic caller. good morning to you.

caller: good morning. i agree with everything that gentleman said. now, america has gone to the dogs if you want to tell the truth and it looked like to me in the last four years since trump got in there, everybody is trump, trump and joe has done the best he can. cleaning up the mess in the white house from joe biden and he has done the best he can, but the thing about it, we are the american people. we were not born democrat and then republican. i know it is a pride, but we as americans, let's love one another. not his love. ink you so much. host: larry and burns will, and a soda. caller: -- minnesota. caller: hello. i want to say something about the bill back better plan. it is one fourth of what we put

into the military-industrial complex cheer. that is the biggest giveaway for the altar rich in this country imaginable. so to say that we cannot spend $200 billion on the middle class and the working class is just pathetic. the other thing i would like to point out is one of the previous callers talked about syria. what donald trump did there was built these first-class military institutions in syria and then came over -- gave them over to the communists in russia. host: i'm going to jump in and explain what people are saying this morning on your television screen read this as the motorcade carrying the casket of the late senator bob dole, republican of kansas, to the u.s. capitol capitol today where he will get the honor of lying in state. the 33rd person to do so inside the rotunda of the capital where

dignitaries like the president and others are going to be gathering to honor the legacy of the senator and the presidential nominee. it ran for president three times and secure the nomination in 1997 rate as we watch, i just want to share a little bit with all of you about his disability that shaped him as a lawmaker. on april 14, 1945, less than one month for v-e day, his squad was trying to retake hill 913 in central italy when he crawled to -- rescue a wooded soldier. nazi fire ripped into his right shoulder. he went home in a body cast. still earned -- dole earned two purple hearts and a bronze star. he began a three year ordeal to regain his health early dying twice complications. his right arm remains paralyzed and mostly useless for the rest

of his life. bob dole then, world war ii veteran, went into the military after attending college for two years. when he was sent home with his injuries, local kansas residents took up a fund for him the total reaching $1800 to help him with his medical bills. he kept the box of those donations in his office desk for the rest of his life to remember that. let's watch.

host: this casket carrying bob dole to the u.s. capitol. the ceremony to honor his legacy will get underway here in just a few minutes. we have live coverage right here on span.