, nazanin ash, to discuss the group's efforts to support the resettlement of afghan refugees in the u.s.. later, farah stockman talks about her book, “american made: what happens to people when work disappears." [video clip] >> i mean this and i know you're frustrated. we want this to be over, but we are still in it. this is a critical moment. we have more tools than we have ever had before. we are ready. we will get through this. host: this is the washington journal for december 22. president biden has unveiled new efforts on testing and urged people to get vaccinated or get a booster shot. in the next hour, we want to hear about your level of concern over the omicron variant.

you can talk about if it is changing your daily life, your holiday plans, or the administration approach to it. here is how you can call us this morning. if you are vaccinated, (202) 748-8000. (202) 748-8001 if you are unvaccinated. you can text us at (202) 748-8003. post on facebook and -- at facebook.com/cspan. you can also post on twitter at @cspanwj. the new york times this morning taking a look at public reaction to the omicron variant. the virus has americans angry and tired when it comes to taking a look at omicron. they write, conversations with more than two dozen people across the country revealed americans are exhausted by the emotional pandemic roller coaster and confused by mixed messages from experts and leaders about appropriate precautions. she has not been vaccinated

because earlier in the pandemic she did not want to do so while pregnant despite assurances from public health experts that shots were safe for pregnant women. since then, she has not been reassured by reports of vaccinated people getting covid infections. even though the vaccines remain effective at warding off severe disease, adding they still have to get tested if they get exposed, so what is the point of this? there is more of that in the new york times this morning my the president making a speech yesterday about new efforts on omicron when it comes to testing and other things. you can still find it at our website. here he is talking about those concerns. >> how concerned should you be about omicron, which is now the dominant variant in this country? the answer is straightforward. if you are not fully vaccinated,

you have good reason to be concerned. you are at high risk of getting sick. if you get sick, you're likely to spread it to others. the unvaccinated have a higher risk of ending up in the hospital or even dying. almost everyone who has died from covid-19 in the past months has been unvaccinated. if you are among the majority of americans who are fully vaccinated, especially if you have gotten the booster shot, you have less reason to worry. you have a high degree of protection against severe illness. because omicron spreads so easily, you will see fully vaccinated people get covid, potentially in large numbers. we have positive cases in every office, even among the vaccinated from omicron. these cases are unlikely to lead

to serious illness. vaccinated people who get covid may get ill, but they are protected from severe illness and death. that is why you should remain vigilant. according to our doctors, even if you are fully vaccinated you should wear a mask when indoors in a public setting. wearing a mask provides extra protection from -- for you and those around you. i know some americans are wondering if you can safely celebrate the holidays with your family and friends. the answer is you can. if you and those who celebrate with our vaccinated, particularly if you have gotten your booster shot. if you are vaccinated and follow precautions that we all know, you should feel comfortable celebrate christmas and the holidays as you planned. you have done the right thing. you can enjoy the holiday season. host: we will show you more during the course of the hour. you can find it at c-span.org if

you want to see the full presentation. the wall street journal talks about those kits, saying those fast acting at home rapid tests are less sensitive than laboratory-based pcr tests but provide results in minutes and can be taken anywhere. they work best in a person has a lot of virus in their system and is most likely to be contagious, leading many public health experts to dub them contagiousness tests. the amount of virus in a body can shoot up quickly, so public health experts stress the result is relevant to that specific moment. many have encouraged people to use the tests before gathering and traveling but to do so right before the event rather than the day or night before. again, your thoughts on the omicron virus, or level of concern over it. rob starts us off in new york on the line for those who are vaccinated. caller: thank you for c-span.

you are one of the best they have. i am not trying to blow smoke here, but you play it right down the middle. it is very cool. your colleague greta, her bias comes through. host: we all take the job seriously enough where we come across & the information and do what we have to do without a bias. to the question of your level of concern, how would you describe that? caller: just to rebut, if you read between the lines when you listen to her, it comes through. host: not the point this morning , but your level of concern over the virus? caller: the misinformation -- here you have a democratic president worried about every person that is unvaccinated, whether they are democratic or republican. appealing to people to go out. i have been vaccinated and then boosted.

if they tell me every six months i have to get a boost, i am happy to do it. the amount of pressure and stress and danger that we are imposing on nurses and doctors -- i am a republican -- some are republican, some are democrats. the fact that we are divided over a matter of science is insane. the misinformation that even the former president admitted to bill o'reilly. i was surprised bill o'reilly even asked of the question. the former president was probably upset he was asked the question. he paused but then admitted he has had the booster if you saw that film clip. he was booed by some members of the audience and try to play

down the fact that he was booed. there you go. if you have the former president in chief, who is full of misinformation, admitting he has gotten the booster, who knows? host: we will go to earl in california on our unvaccinated line. caller: good morning. the guy from new york, i kind of agree with the comment on greta. you guys know that better than me. i am unvaccinated, proudly. as i listen to people and read and monitor the internet, i am grateful i am able to stay away from all of it. with joe biden coming, god bless him. he did not threaten to take away my v.a. meds. he did not threaten to take away my earned income.

i have gone out for 15 surgeries and procedures, agent orange related. he did not threaten to take that away because i am not vaccinated. host: what is your current level of concern over this variant in your unvaccinated status? caller: i am not concerned at all. i am just grateful i'm not involved. joe biden is telling us you have to have your first poke and two boosters. i do not know if the guy from new york was listening close enough. and you have to wear a mask and then you can get together and celebrate christmas. let's go, brandon. host: we will go to lisa in kentucky on our line for those who are vaccinated. caller: i am vaccinated, but i am not too concerned about this omicron. i think it is going to be fast acting, come and go very quickly.

it might be difficult for the ones that you get it. as i stay at home, most of the time i am not going to be worried about it. host: as far as plans, it does not change your daily life? caller: no. i am retired. the only place i go to is the grocery store, so it is not going to change anything. guest: you said you were vaccinated. are you boosted as well? caller: no. host: what made you decide not to go that far. caller: mainly because i do not do well with multiple shots. i was on insulin and did the seven day a week and four out of seven days i was deathly ill. i do not do real well. since i stay-at-home if i go out i wear a mask and wash my hands, stay away from other people. most of the time, i just stay-at-home and i am not going to worry about it.

i think there are steps americans can take. one thing i would like instead of mandates to see is that those who can work from home for the rest of eternity stay-at-home. if you have a desk job, that would save on gas. that would save on the virus. host: lisa and kentucky. we have divided the lines. if you are vaccinated and want to give your level of concern over omicron, (202) 748-8000. if you are unvaccinated, (202) 748-8001. leo and harmon, illinois on our unvaccinated line. caller: i am not an anti-vaxxer that i was poisoned by an antibody three years ago. i cannot take the vaccine because the vaccine has it in it.

so my doctor said i cannot get vaccinated. i am not against the vaccine. i just cannot take it because i was poisoned by an antibody that causes me not to be able to be vaccinated. host: because of that, when you see variants or covert itself, what is your level of concern in your day-to-day life? caller: host: it makes me -- caller: it makes me very concerned because i should never have been poisoned by an antibody in the first place. host: to the variant itself, what is your level of concern of catching something? caller: i wear a mask when i go out and then you see people who have now been vaccinated. they are not wearing a mask. i cannot be vaccinated, so that makes me worried. host: that is leo in illinois

telling his story as far as not being vaccinated and his concerns. when it comes to hospitals, one of the aspects of the president's plan is to relieve overrun hospitals. the government will send emergency medical teams to six states. some of the states, such as michigan, have been suffering with case surges since before the announcement of the first omicron case in the united states. the ministration will also deploy an additional 1000 military doctors and other health care personnel to strained medical centers in january and february as needed. mr. biden is set to order the federal emergency management agency to prepare more hospital beds ahead of expected surge. derek is from seattle, washington on our line for those who are vaccinated. caller: i am vaccinated. greta is all right. there is nothing wrong with greta.

you have a problem sometimes. you cut people off in the middle of their main point. donald trump needs to be held accountable. not just for the virus. he needs to be charged with criminal -- when a doctor finds out something is going on and spreading and they do not want the public of that -- these people who do not want to wear no masks, they will put on that oxygen mask or go to the hospital. they need to stop treating these people and have a separate area in the hospital. host: with that said, your level of concern in omicron? caller: i'm concerned about omicron to about the vaccine i took your i had a choice can either take that vaccine or take a chance of catching this virus, which i feel like is worse than taking a vaccine. i took numerous other vaccines. host: what was your concern with the vaccine as you took it? what were your concerns?

caller: the vaccine had not been out there that long. once i had seen doctors and nurses and people were taking it, i decided to take a choice in going to the hospital, taking up a space for somebody when i would not help myself. why would you treat these people? they will put that oxygen mask on. host: we will go to michael in florida on our line for those who are vaccinated. caller: i am fully vaccinated. i got boosted the friday after thanksgiving. went into a restaurant last tuesday and started feeling like a head cold coming in friday. i ended up getting the covid. i have been tested and i got antibodies yesterday. i am concerned. i am feeling blessed. i have almost lost my voice with his head cold. my only symptoms were runny nose a cough.

here i am, fully vaccinated, boosted. my wife had an adverse reaction to the vaccine. she has not gotten boosted yet, so we are sleeting in our home. it is a heck -- isolating in our home. it is a heck of a way to spend the christmas holiday. host: talking about that level of frustration among some people with the variants and connected to covid, would you put yourself in that camp? caller: i do not catch you earlier today. i have just come in. sorry. host: we will go to joseph on our line for those who are vaccinated. caller: i am concerned about this variant. i am fully vaccinated. i was back in march because i work in public schools. i am a speech therapist. i am very concerned that this variant is so much more contagious than delta was, than

delta was, then the primary strain was that we are going to have to go back to virtual schools. if you have kids, you know virtual school is not great. it is not the optimal learning environment at all. seeing my kids get sick is not something i want to see. the second concern i have is that, like everyone has been saying, even if you are fully vaccinated, even if you are boosted, you can still get it, granted with less severe symptoms. i grew up in a more conservative area of the country in new jersey and i have friends and friends' parents who refuse to get vaccinated. even at the brink of death. these people caught covid, they were hospitalized and on oxygen and on deaths door and come out of that and still say, i do not know if i will get the vaccine. it blows my mind that people will not even save their own lives. host: in the education system, are you getting the sense that

you're going to go back to virtual learning next year? caller: right now in the school system i am in in maryland, the protocol is that if the positivity rate among students and staff and teachers goes above 5% we have to consider -- within a certain school, we have to consider at least going virtual. i do not know what that means. everything is very vague. we are all kind of making it up as we go. i am concerned. teachers and students are dropping out and quarantining left and right, which does not bode well especially with everyone traveling over the holidays. host: that is joseph and washington, d.c. -- in washington, d.c. districts have mostly reassured families that despite targeted classroom closures to contain the spread of the virus they plan to continue in person learning and reopen in january. suburban washington was among

the school systems that said they would not shift to remote learning or only do so if forced by public health officials. still the alarming spread of the virus could expose the infrastructure that has kept schools running most of this year. the president yesterday on vaccination efforts and his message to those who are unvaccinated, here is a portion of that from yesterday. [video clip] >> thanks to the progress on vaccinations this fall, we have gone from nearly 90 million adults in july who had not even started the vaccination process to fewer than 40 million today. that is still too many. all these people who have not been vaccinated, you have an obligation to ourselves, to your family, and to your country. get vaccinated now. it is free. it is convenient. i promise you it saves lives.

i believe it is your patriotic duty. host: you can see more of that at our website. if you want to download the c-span now app, you can find that presentation yesterday on the app and other things on a short-term basis when it comes to things aired on this network. from facebook, i am vaccinated, worried about the unthinking mob that refuses to get vaccinated or do anything to protect themselves and their family and community. recently, someone in texas who thought he had immunity was unvaccinated and died. from facebook, saying i am not. if i die, i die. we all die of something someday. from jeremy, saying he is super concerned, adding let's do some simple math year. 6.5 million deaths so far attributed to covid-19. that is a lot of people.

less than 1/10 of a percent death toll on the last 10 years, the worst plague ever. then bob, posting on facebook saying i think the response is more troubling. we will hear from john in pennsylvania. good morning. caller: i want to give a gretchen. she is the best of their. you, bill, and john are the biggest -- i don't know. i am not vaccinated. i am not going to get vaccinated. our crook in chief yesterday running his mouth saying everybody needs to get vaccinated. everybody calling and complaining and going after their fellow americans -- why don't we go after china? how are we going to find a vaccination when we do not even know where this disease came from because we do not want to admit that china with lord fatty

manufactured this and released it to the nation -- lord fauci manufacture this and released it to the nation? nobody has died from the variant. tell me one person who has died from the variants. even the president from south america said it already ran its course down there. using people as human guinea pigs -- i will get a vaccination when you find the vaccination that is for this disease. until people are willing -- host: what would you call the pfizer vaccine approved by the fda? caller: how is the vaccination only working for six months? host: fighter put one out and got -- pfizer put one out and got a permit. why not take it? caller: because it does not stop the virus.

people who are getting the vaccination are passing the virus. my brother and his wife with got it and both got sick from the delta, not the omicron. host: let's go to shane on our line for those who are unvaccinated in new york. caller: can you hear me ok? caller: i am 33. i am not too worried about the omicron variant. -- beating up on the americans that are not vaccinated. we all have a choice, whether we do or do not vaccinated. before this began in march, i got very sick. i was working in westchester county and sat home for about two months. this was before covid was a thing. i recovered and never got sick

again. i never thought i needed the vaccine. i am not too concerned about it. i am tired of people beating up on the other americans that say we are a mob, that we are not getting vaccinated, that we do not care about protecting the rest. host: you said you were not too concerned. you said you were not vaccinated. do you think there will be a point in the process as we deal with this where you become vaccinated or something changes your mind? caller: if i see legitimate changing results of the vaccination, that it does better -- we can help the elderly or if there are results saying you 100% do not get it -- people are getting the vaccine and still

getting at. then i will change my mind. host: shane in new york coming not vaccinated, giving us his reason why. the larger question we want you to respond to is your concern over the omicron variant. you can talk about the vaccinations, as many have come the response of the administration, changing your plans for the holidays. (202) 748-8001 for those who are unvaccinated. you can text is at (202) 748-8003. -- us at (202) 748-8003. the editor of the wall street journal this morning, their lead editorial, mr. biden's omicron reality check. they write, there is not much the ministration can do at this point. it plans to distribute 500 million free at home tests, but not until january because ramping up manufacturing takes time. mr. biden hammer to the trump administration over long lines

but now the reality is his. mr. biden campaigned on big wishing covid but has done no better than mr. trump. he is not responsible for the covid death on his watch even more than trump was and would help politically if he said so. the virus will eventually become endemic like other pathogens. immunity from vaccines and infection over time should lessen its severity. omicron may accelerate this process. we will be fortunate if it turns out to be less regular as evident -- very lint -- virulent as evidence suggests. caller: i got all of my moderna vaccinations and a booster because i worked as a hot -- in a hospital as a chaplain for several years and saw the result of getting treatment having interventions against diseases. i help people's hands as they died. i see all of this as a human

condition that people live with. i would say resistance. people do not want to be told what to do command that is sad. i do not have an answer for that. i want to applaud president biden because he helped kentucky after their terrible storms. even mitch mcconnell gave notice to his actions. i thought that was telling of president biden. he caught -- cut through the red tape. host: what do you think of the management of the covid response itself? how would you rate the ministration's work on it that? caller: i would give him an a because he is getting people help. that is what people are wanting even as they are rebelling against it. we do not want a shot and all this. he is helping and he is honest. you notice in his speech he was not eloquent purity coughed,

paused, forgot, but that is what god uses, imperfect people to do great works. i have an answer for all this problems of disease in our country. i would like to read something for that. it says, if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then i will forgive their sins and heal their land. host: that is william in arkansas. from thomas in ohio on our line for those who are vaccinated. hello. you are on. caller: i just got my booster yesterday, but i cannot understand how all these people who are against it -- it just tells me they do not care about their fellow human beings. they could have the virus and be asymptomatic. get your shot.

host: what about people who are concerned about the vaccines? we have had several tell us that is why they decided to not get it. why not give them that option? caller: if they are asymptomatic , they can still spread the virus and not know they have the virus. host: they still get the choice of being vaccinated or not, though. caller: they should not have a choice if they can infect other people who are vaccinated. host: are you saying vaccines should be mandatory? caller: yes until we get -- learn more about it and help stop the spread. people do not know they have it or not. how do they know if they are spreading it? host: deirdre in florida is joining us next.

she is on our line for those who are vaccinated. caller: my question is i am vaccinated and boosted. i have family members who refuse to get the vaccine. they say it is safe to spend time with other people who are vaccinated, but there are breakthrough cases were people who are vaccinated can get the virus hearing can they also pass it to someone else who is unvaccinated? what is the difference between them and an unvaccinated person passing it on? host: do those concerns have you changing plans in daily life or holiday plans? caller: yes. i have been pretty much isolated because of it. when i have to go out to the store for something, i wear a mask. it seems i am the only person in the store other than the cashiers who would wear a mask.

host: do you think someone who gets a vaccination feels they are invulnerable and maybe that is why they are not taking other precautions? caller: people who have gotten it? host: do you think they feel invulnerable and that is why they are not wearing masks or going out that way? caller: possibly, yes. host: we will go to peter in springfield, massachusetts. caller: there is nothing that should be more of an individualized cost-benefit analysis than this vaccination. you have to look at your own situation and look at the information we have about it. we know the vaccine does not stop transmission. the vaccine at best ameliorate symptoms. we are finding out that omicron

does the same thing. omicron, once you get through the mild symptoms, you probably have better protection against transmission then you do with the vaccine. so omicron is doing for us what everybody says the vaccine is doing and is not doing. the one thing we are not hearing enough about are the anecdotal stories of adverse effects of the vaccine, which has two way into that cost-benefit analysis. host: looking at that cost-benefit analysis, what would change your mind or would you have to see to change your mind about vaccination? caller: far more protection against transmission. for more amelioration of symptoms. far less probabilities of things that we do not even know about coming up in the future in terms

of what might do to people who got it. we already know they are only anecdotal because we have a press will not pursue it. there are stories of people getting serious problems from the vaccine, including death. host: that is peter in massachusetts. usa today reports on the death of a man in new zealand of myocarditis, john bacon saying the 26-year-old man had died for myocarditis linked to the pfizer vaccine. it is an inflammation that can limit the heart's ability to properly circulate blood. it was a common side effect in the smallpox vaccine of the past . the man died within two weeks of receiving his first dose and a coroner determined preliminary

information had identified myocarditis as the probable cause of death. the vaccine safety monitoring board said the men had not sought medical advice or treatment for the symptoms and say the current of able information the board has considered that myocarditis was probably due to vaccination in this individual. the benefits of the vaccination with the pfizer vaccine for covid-19 continue to greatly outweigh the risks of such rare side effects. let's hear from massachusetts, stephen, on our line for those who are unvaccinated. caller: i love your program. i watch it all the time. i wanted to let everyone know i am 59 years old. i have been through cancer twice. i am on my third round of cancer. i have never in my entire life had a flu shot, never had the flu, never had a cold, not one

single thing. i have been tested because i have to be tested every time i go to the hospital to get my blood work or whatever. i do not have any covid whatsoever. if there really was a covid, maybe i should be dead because i am the one who is most vulnerable. i do not know if i heard on the tv that because i have own negative -- o negative blood i'm naturally immune to it. thank you for your time. have a good christmas. host: jay from philadelphia saying, i have gotten two covid shots and plan to get my booster soon. i am not concerned about the omicron variant. though it is highly contagious, symptoms are reportedly mild. in south carolina, hello.

caller: i am an element tree school teacher. -- elementary school teacher. i was vaccinated early and ended up catching covid. my whole family ended up catching covid the first week school opened back up. i understand the concern from people about the vaccination shot. i feel fight did not have it i would not be here. i did have mild symptoms. it was a positive that i had it. all the people of their, please take it. if you have concerns, do your research and look. to the guy who said he had own negative blood, i have own negative blood. that is not a free pass.

host: since you said you had covid, are you concerned about another breakthrough case especially with this variant around? caller: yes. i believe most likely i will get it again. hopefully i will just have mild symptoms again. i do not have the booster yet. i am trying to get the booster. host: we will go next to candace in maryland. caller: hello. i am on the wrong line. i wanted to say i am fully vaccinated with the booster. i have two young grandchildren who are three and four who i take care of every day. they cannot get a vaccine to save their lives, so i am worried about omicron because,

like the rest of the strands, they can get them and we do not know how badly a child of their age would do. all these people who are concerned that we are not giving them a chance -- taking away their freedom, what about the freedom of the little children? what about our freedom of the ones who are taking the vaccines and taking just as much risk as anyone else would have to take? i think it should be mandated and doctors can sort out who should take it and who should not according to their records and how sick they are or not. host: that is candace and maryland giving us a call and expressing thoughts this morning. the new york times talked to several scientists after the presentation yesterday about this strategy. the headline says the strategy

will not slow spread. they write, mr. biden ruled out lockdowns and other harsh measures of the kind put in place as the pandemic first unfolded in early 2020. some scientists argued the rapid spread required more vigorous mitigation measures. this is an incredibly contagious pathogen. we do not know yet its impact. that is a virologist. he added, we have to reestablish the importance and rigor of the first wave. an infection prevention and epidemiologist in arizona said, mr. biden's steps must be a company by greater vigilance at the community level. indoor gatherings should be limited in areas of high transmission and masks should be worn even at large events outside.

restaurants must have outdoor seating and vaccination -- and must check vaccination status. for our line for those who are vaccinated, we will hear from doug. caller: i am fully vaccinated. i have been boosted. i am not happy about it. i am not proud of it because this is what china did to us and president biden said a year ago that he knew how to get rid of the pandemic and stop it. he forgot how, so i had to go get vaccinated and boosted. he said he knew and he did not do it. i feel violated. i feel like those people who say aliens took them. i am not happy about it. one thing i want to say is the people who are saying that unvaccinated people should just

go to the hospital and i and be thrown to the side, i think that is un-american. i have three sisters. two of them are fully vaccinated and boosted. i have one that chose not to. that is her choice, but i do not want her to get pushed to the side in a hospital and forced to die. that is just morbid. host: you may have not seen the news that even president trump himself said this week during an interview that he himself got a booster. what do make of that information? caller: i have seen that. that is part of why i decided to go ahead and get it over with because he did. words matter. i did not want to get sick. host: we will go to ray and pennsylvania, vaccinated line. caller: i am vaccinated.

i have no concerns myself but am concerned like other callers have said with people who have immune deficiencies or are too young to get the vaccine. i am concerned about them. that is the bad part of it. there is a good part. the good part is the majority of people who are now dying are the unvaccinated anti-vaxxers him and trumpers. host: why is that good and why would you say that? caller: because they will improve the united states gene pool and iq. host: you honestly believe that or is that just rhetoric on your part? host: i believe they are too stupid. there is only one way to cure it, and they are curing it. host: we will go to manchester,

tennessee, our line for those who are not vaccinated. caller: i am not vaccinated and i do not plan on taking any shots. i have been through the hong kong flu, asian flu, sars, swine fluke, and this is no different than any of those. if you get it, go to the hospital or your doctor. get a vaccine. things will be ok. 40 years ago before you had cable tv and the internet you will not have heard nothing about all of this. it is just a big hoax. host: what makes you believe it is a hoax? he hung up. one of the things the president talked about yesterday was information or misinformation about efforts from covid, and part talking about certain cable news networks. here is part of his speech on that topic. [video clip] >> the unvaccinated are responsible for their own choices, but those choices have

been fueled by dangerous misinformation on cable tv and social media. these companies and personalities are making money by peddling lies at allowing misinformation that can kill their own customers and supporters. it is wrong. it is immoral. i call on the purveyors of these lies and misinformation to stop it. stop it now. host: there was a lot to that speech yesterday. if you want to see it, there are a couple ways you can do that. if you want to go to the website, it is c-span.org. if you want to download it on your mobile device, the c-span now app will give you access to that video. it shows things we are streaming in real time but also archives certain presentations. i invite you to check out the c-span now app. from california on our line for

those unvaccinated, this is don. caller: all these people who are saying they have science and facts on their side with the vaccine, i have news for them. corona by any other name affects you the same. there is not a hair's difference between delta and omicron and these other ones. they are just silly names they are putting on variants. what is a variant? it is like a blue corona. host: they are variations on corona. caller: variations, but none are more deadly than the other one. they are all corona. it is like human beings are black and white but we want everyone to be called to the same, right? when corona has a variation cannot let's all mask up and we are all going to die. of the deaths of corona, only 4%

are under 45. i am hearing young people calling up breathless and scared that they are going to die. who is giving the misinformation? president biden is. he is the one telling us take a vaccine and you will not spread corona. senator warren has been triple jab. she got corona. she can spread it. misinformation is happening on both sides. if you want to get a vaccine, and there are people who need it, then get it. knock yourself out. leave me alone. if i do not get the vaccine and get corona i am 99% assured of living. i'm 100% assured of not getting a better reaction to the vaccine. that is another scientific fact. we are not all dying from corona you had a caller saying they will kill off all the trumpers because they will not get the

vaccine. corona is not a death sentence. host: 800,000 have died from it. caller: 75% were over 65 with one foot in the grave. you guys do not say that. you are spreading misinformation. host: i am not. the 800,000 death number is a fact. caller: most of the people who died in corona -- of corona were almost dead anyways. host: what do you base that on? caller: on cdc numbers. host: you looked at the cdc and came up with that yourself? caller: the cdc will tell you 75% of the people who died were over 65 with circumstances, health circumstances that extension waited -- accentuated what corona did. corona may give them a heart attack because they had a hard time breathing. we do not hear that.

all we hear is that corona is a bullet that is going to kill you. it is not. omicron officially has only killed as many americans as ali -- alec baldwin. host: we will go to james in virginia on our line for those who are unvaccinated. caller: i am not vaccinated. i remember in february this past year trump got rushed to the hospital. they ran every kind of test on him, sent him to a primary doctor. more tests. [inaudible] host: james come if you can, get closer to your phone because we are getting a lot of background noise. caller: i am calling from my truck. merry christmas. have a good day.

host: that is james calling from his truck, i think he said. some people do especially around the metro area in washington, d.c. a couple more minutes of this. (202) 748-8000 for those who are vaccinated. if you are unvaccinated, (202) 748-8001. other political news to share with you, david jackson reporting about republican congressman scott perry. the congressman reportedly advised the former president on attempts to subvert the election and said tuesday he would not cooperate with the committee investigating the insurrection. mr. perry said the jan your six committee is illegitimate and he will continue to fight the failures of the radical left. that is from usa today. there is a story in the new york times this morning about senator rob menendez junior -- the son

of the senator. he is 36 years old of new jersey. he plans to run for congress to replace a representative who announced he will not seek reelection. if elected, they will be likely to serve together in washington. the younger mr. menendez is a practicing lawyer and will make his first run for public office. he did not return calls or emails concerning his possible interest in running for the seat. in california, robert on our line for those who are vaccinated. caller: can you hear me? host: you are on. i caller: caller: i have a few things to say. there are people who have a weakened immune system. i am one of those.

i was in the marine corps and got exposed to toxic chemicals in the water. there are thousands of marines that have the same case as me. i caught covid when it first came out and survived. i think i ate something that had it on it because my symptoms were first in my stomach -- they were not in my lungs. eventually got to my lungs. it is the worst thing i have ever had in my life. i have never been as sick as that in my life. i am so glad i was proactive in treating it with vitamins. i came close to dying myself. anyone who says it is a hoax, you are crazy. host: sandy in maryland on our line for those who are vaccinated. caller: you all have the patience of jude. we know what party they are

affiliated with. we would not be in this mess if that thing for mar-a-lago was competent, and he is not. he is poison. number three, those who do not want to get vaccinated, all elective surgery and everybody else goes in first. they do not get the beds. if they keel over in the waiting room number, oh w -- waiting room, oh, well. host: why would you say some thing like that? caller: what because -- host: why would you make assumptions like that if you are wishing their death? caller: it is easier look at the trump trash party. host: ok. that is sandy in maryland. speaking of president trump, as of next year he plans to hold a news conference on january 6, the one-year anniversary of the riot at the u.s. capitol

according to sources, this is the hill reporting them a why is it the committee investigating the cause of the january 6 protests, the rate presidential election? he said in a statement announcing the news conference. in several states he claims the numbers do not come close and he sought to reframe the november 2020 election as the insurrection instead of the day his supporters overran the capital and an attempt to block certification of election results. he says he will hold a news conference to discuss all these points and more. there is more reporting on this. from our line for those who are unvaccinated in pennsylvania, hi. caller: i have been listening since 7:00. it is so sad that people do not trust the government. i am 85.

i think it started in the vietnam war when we realized we were not being given correct information. it is sad there is a division among the people. i was disappointed in the president yesterday that he still seems to be pitting people against each other. you do not get people to do things by bullying them and pressuring them and criminalizing them. so i am unvaccinated. it has not changed my circle. being 85, i walk to town three times a week and take the bus home. masks are required on the bus. i wear masks in the grocery store. host: what keeps you from getting vaccinated? caller: it just seems -- nobody seems to know what they are doing.

every day you turn on the tv. something else has come up. their only solution is another booster. when they get their act together and we have one shot, like the flu shot, then i will consider it. host: president trump himself admitted to getting a booster. how would you respond to that? caller: it goes back to it is everybody's own business. do what you want to do. i am a polio survivor. i got the vaccine, which took 10 years when it came out. i was six when i had it. i was 16 when i had the vaccine. we are very fortunate that they are working on it quickly, but they do not still seem to know what they are doing even though they knew it was coming. i do not have enough faith in it

yet to be a guinea pig. host: that is margie in pennsylvania. let's go to tony on our line for those who are unvaccinated come up maryland. caller: some of your callers discussed me, the amount of hatred between the faxed -- vaxxed and unvaxxed. i was an early covid patient and the doctor who saved my life is recommending i do not get a vaccination. i do not understand the amount of hatred that goes on and the forces coming down from the government telling you to get vaccinated. host: what justification did your doctor give to you for not getting a vaccine? caller: i get my blood drawn monthly. they are monitoring my antibody levels and are not sure because of my organ damage from my multiorgan failure if i will have adverse side effects to vaccinations.

again, a university doctor is recommending me -- he knows my battery -- body better than dr. fauci does. host: that is tony in rockville. let's go to the line for those who are vaccinated, robert and washington, d.c. caller: first time caller. i got vaccinated in january as a service member before it because i wanted to make sure if anything happened to me that my elderly grandmother would be ok and my newborn nephew would be ok. it is difficult for people to grasp the concept of being selfless and doing it for my peers. host: from eileen in virginia on our line for those who are unvaccinated. caller: i am unvaccinated. i did get the first one, but i

refused to go back and get the others. in 2000 -- 2020, my husband passed away at a va hospital in richmond. i was permitted to go in to the icu with him, no mask. the doctors wear no masks. i stayed with him different times while he was in -- sorry, i cannot even think now. anyway, i did not get -- have any symptoms. doctors that come on tv and different stations, they all have something different to say. one says this, one says that. until they get somebody that can really come out with the right

thing and say the right things -- host: can i ask you to elaborate on why he decided to get the first but not the second? caller: i thought about that. my kids were not going to get it either. i am a trump follower. people can hate me for that. i do not care. that has nothing to do with it. if trump wants to get his vaccine, that is fine. i do not like the government telling me what to do or what not to do when they change things every day. i heard fauci himself telling other -- i cannot remember the name of the group he was with, but he said they could not test

a vaccine until they had a pandemic. he even said there was going to be a pandemic before trump left office, which happened. to me, this has all been planned. host: those have all been debated in several forums on capitol hill. caller: i know that. i heard fauci say that they could not test a vaccine until a pandemic and then the pandemic happened. host: even after all that, you decided to get the first shot. caller: yes, i did, and i regretted it because i felt like i was put under pressure to do that, not the way i -- i did not want to do it.

the way that things were going at the time, this was back in april. i thought if i get it, maybe some of these mandates, maybe people can get back to normal. but apparently not because people that have the vaccine were still getting it. host: one more call from julio in florida on the line for those who are vaccinated. hello. caller: i just want to say that i do not hate people that are vaccinated. we are under attack from something that nobody can see that coming. scientists do not have anything on the moment when vaccine was spread over the world. this is the way i see it.

people are just ignorant. they do not get the right information. even trump took the vaccine. that is why you see the country so divided because he started all of this. we are in this situation right now that we have this kind of argument with people. i have friends, i have been talking with them for years and now because of this. host: we will have to leave it there. thank you to all of you who participated this first hour. we will change our attention to the plight of afghan refugees coming to the united states seeking a new life here in america after the events of the u.s. pulling out of afghanistan. our guests are nazanin ash.

we will talk about what faces them once they come here. later, we will talk to farah stockman about her book, "american made: what happens to people when work disappears" all of those coming up on "washington journal." ♪ >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are funded by these television companies and more. midco supports c-span along with these other television providers, giving you a front-row seat to democracy.

sunday, january 2, civil war historian allan joins us live to talk about the early history of the united states, the civil war, and the reconstruction era. his book titles include "gettysburg," and a biography of a confederal general -- confederate general. join us with your facebook comments, text, and tweets sunday on book tv. c-span offers a variety of podcasts that have something for every listener. weekdays, "washington today" gives you the latest from the capitol and every week, interviews with writers about their latest works. "the weekly" looks at how issues

of today developed over the years. and our occasional series features extensive conversations with historians about their lives and work. many of our programs are also available as podcasts. you can find them all on the c-span now mobile app or wherever you get your podcasts. a new mobile video app from c-span. c-span now. download today. "washington journal" continues. host: the plight of afghan refugees coming into the united states, the topic of our discussion with nazanin ash, the chief executive officer of welcome.us. thanks for coming on the program. guest: thanks for having me. host: can you tell our viewers what welcome.us is and the role it takes when it comes to afghan refugee settlement?

guest: absolutely. it is built to inspire and mobilize the american people to welcome and support all those who are seeking safety and refuge here in the united states beginning with our afghan allies. we work very closely with local and national resettlement agencies, federal states and local governments with hundreds of nonprofits, the private sector, and many across the american public who are raising their hands to make contributions and welcome our newest afghan neighbors and we help coordinate and direct those resources and those assets to where it is needed most. host: how many refugees are in the process of being resettled from afghanistan for -- after the pullout? guest: there were 100,000 afghans at risk who were evacuated as part of the evacuation of the u.s. from afghanistan and 70,000 of those

have now arrived here in the united states. eight military bases across the united states, they received their final paperwork and processing and covid vaccinations and initial orientation and now close to a little over 40,000 of those initial 70,000 have made their way across the united states to new communities where they will be rebuilding their lives. host: what is the length of time between going to one of those bases before finding another place where they will end up relocating to? guest: the bases were set up to be short-term temporary processing locations. what it has been a longer timeframe -- but it has been a longer time for many refugees arriving here because they have arrived in the midst of an extraordinary affordable housing crisis in the united states. doing their final processing on the basis and making sure that they have the right housing and

other welcoming support for them in their communities of final destination has been a challenge, but it is a challenge we are solving with tremendous support from american institutions and the american public. it has been encouraging to see how many across the american tapestry are putting their hands up to help. host: when a refugee has relocated to where they will stay permanently, how much assistance comes directly from the government and what does that assistance look like? guest: that assistance looks like $2275 per person to help you get your legs under you in your first 30 to 90 days here in the united states. that goes to support your first month rent and security deposit, setting up your household, getting clothes and food and basic supplies. you are also eligible for other government support including

foodstamps, income assistance, housing assistance. these are the assets that newcomers rely on as they are finding their footing in the united states. what is so remarkable about the refugee assistance program, refugees are supported by a tremendous network of resettlement agencies who supplement government resources that are provided with private sector money including the type that we are raising through welcome.us. with that support, refugees have an extraordinary history of success here in the united states. almost 90% who participate in job placement programs are self-sufficient within six months. host: what else comes from charities that work alongside? i am assuming charities work alongside the united states in these efforts and the state is coming alongside as well. guest: absolutely.

it is a national, local, community effort of nonprofits and private sector organizations that provide welcome and support to refugees and that is everything from helping them find their first home, set up their first apartment, facilitate local transportation, learning how to get around in your community, ensuring that they complete their immigration paperwork so that they can maintain their status and be authorized to work and providing a host of mental, legal, and other health services to help them restart their lives here in the united states. host: you cannot see the headline, but "the new york times" recently did a story. the headline says, at every step they encounter something blocks. u.s. officials can see the system was unprepared. would you characterize it that way? guest: we are experiencing an

extraordinary national challenge of resettling 100,000 afghan newcomers in less than six months. we have not done anything like it in over 40 years. the reason welcome.us was founded and the inside of the cofounders of welcome.us, who each work as the domestic policy advisers for president bush and president obama, was that this is a challenge only if we do not tap into the tournament's capacity of the american people and american institutions to make their contributions to welcoming and supporting newcomers. what has been inspiring to see in this role is that in less than 100 days, we have mobilized over $40 million from the private sector in cash and goods and services to help support

afghan arrivals. we have built the largest coalition in history by three former presidents and three former first ladies to make their contributions to ensuring that afghan newcomers are resettled safely and that coalition includes local and national nonprofits and resettlement agencies. it also includes universities and colleges. it includes the private sector and philanthropy. it includes leadership from across the american tapestry from politics to media to art to entertainment, all of whom are putting up their hands and making their contributions to help. host: nazanin ash is the chief executive officer for welcome.us and if you want to ask her questions about what goes on for those coming from afghanistan, you are welcome to call (202) 748-8000 for the eastern and central time zones. (202) 748-8001 for the mountain and pacific time zones. you can text us at (202) 748-8003. if i may, you have yourself a

story to shell -- share as how you came to the united states, if you would not mind. guest: i am happy to share. i have definitely benefited from the safety and refuge that the united states provides to those who seek it. my parents came to the united states from iran as students and made the decision to stay windy iranian revolution happened and for my future. while i would never compare my experience to the extraordinary hardship of the immediate displacement and trauma that the afghan newcomers and many refugees face, my family has experienced that instruction and uncertainty that comes with the unanticipated dislocation from your family, from the life you knew and the path that you thought you were on, but also

benefiting from the extraordinary opportunity and welcome that america provides. i am grateful to my parents for making that decision on my behalf and grateful to have opportunities to give back. host: given your own experience and what you might see for those coming from afghanistan aside from providing food and shelter, how are they prepared for culture shock as far as the united states compared to where they came from? guest: this is an experience that every newcomer faces and it is an experience that many americans hold in common. what is extraordinary about the american experience is that so many millions have come from different cultures, from different backgrounds, and from different contexts, different faiths, and they have made their lives here and contributed to the strength of our nation. i anticipate that the experience of our newest afghan neighbors, it will be tough going for a

while. it is hard. we all saw the circumstances from which they left afghanistan. we note that they arrived with literally the close -- clothes and cash that they could carry and very little else. they are arriving in a new country with a new context with a language that is very unknown to them and it will take a little bit of time. what makes dad's easier is the welcome that is provided to them -- what makes that path easier is the welcome that is provided to them, show them around, help them register their kids in school, tell them where to go grocery shopping, where to get a cup of tea. these are all countless acts of welcome that help smooth the path for newcomers and it is a history that we all share. host: our first call is from sean in fort lauderdale, florida for our guest nazanin ash of welcome.us. good morning. caller: it is so good to help

humanity. utility super rich people to put them -- you tell the super rich people to put them in their mansions. you have to get rid of greed first for humanity to come to one accord. you cannot sit there and smile and act like this is utopia when americans themselves cannot get houses. what about all of the inflation? host: as far as about afghan refugees, what would you like to ask? caller: that is what i am talking about. you have american refugees on the streets. put them in a house before you take care of another problem on the east side. you have to help people, but you have to make sense also. host: that is sean in fort lauderdale. guest: thank you for raising your concern. what is extraordinary about

welcoming newcomers to the united states is you do not have to make a choice between putting americans first and meeting their needs. the history of refugee resettlement is extraordinarily successful. refugees start businesses at 50% higher rate than native populations. they are job creators. i mentioned that they are self-sufficient within six months. a study in the previous set administration demonstrated that refugees contribute $63 billion more in taxes to our economy than they receive in public services. this is a circumstance that americans will call a win-win. we are welcoming newcomers and allowing them to make contributions to our economy, society, and culture. it benefits all of us. host: you are next. hi. caller: good morning. i am very sorry what happened in afghanistan. i agree with the previous caller that americans, we have our own

issues. we have veterans who are homeless. we have kids who are struggling in school and we need to take care of our own before we can start taking care of others. i am very sorry what happened in afghanistan, but it is just like sometimes i feel like it is a slap in the face. i do have a question. how is this being funded? is this being funded with tax dollars? thank you. guest: thanks for your question. one of the most amazing things about this effort is how our veterans have really led the national call to service and to response for our afghan allies. it really demonstrates that we do not have to make choices here between taking care of americans and taking care of newcomers. when we do it successfully, we all benefit. it is a contribution that

contributes to the rising tide that raises all boats with contributions to the economy, with the jobs created, some of our most iconic businesses from google to intel were started by refugees. we have benefited tremendously in this society, as a nation, and as an economy from welcoming the creativity, the entrepreneurship, the striving of american newcomers. host: as far as the caller's second point, you talked about the initial help financially when a refugee comes to the united states. is that directly through taxpayer funds? guest: there are taxpayer funds that provide both the initial support that refugees receive and the benefits that they have access to, which are benefits available to all low income

americans, poverty assistance, food stamps, those are also taxpayer-funded. there is also an extraordinary public-private partnership that supports refugee resettlement and it is what we have seen demonstrated in the response to this national endeavor so far where our welcome fund has raised $15 million just in the last 100 days from over 500 large and small donors. what is provided by taxpayer dollars is supplemented in very important ways by private contribution, both donations of money, but also so many resources. people donating furniture, donating clothing, paying for groceries, and donating their time and volunteering to help newcomers navigate their new communities and navigator systems. host: you have a background at

the state department before you came to your current position. for those numbers that are coming here, what is the process of background checks done by the state department? guest: it is a very extensive security and background check process conducted by u.s. government agencies. there are over 12 agencies including our security and intelligence agencies that are involved in doing the security and background checks for refugees before they arrive here. four afghan newcomers particularly when they were evacuated from afghanistan, they were first evacuated to military bases overseas and that is where the government conducted their extensive security and background checks and did that before any newcomers were admitted to the united states and when they were admitted to the united states, they were received on eight military bases across the country where they conducted their final paperwork and health screenings before

they were resettled to committees across the united states. the process is very expensive. there is no more rigorous screening process for entry to the united states than the refugee program. host: jeff in california. hello. caller: good morning. i am from northern california and we have a couple of large afghan communities. they are great folks. i welcome them to the united states. they do take care of themselves. they have a very tight community. they do not end up staying on social security or any of these other things. i just reiterate that i am glad to have them here and good luck to all of them. guest: that is so kind of you to share and his kindness has been seen in communities across the united states.

we are seeing our newest afghan neighbors arrive in large numbers to communities in northern california, socal, texas, and northern virginia. maryland, washington, d.c., and the tri-state area connecting with afghan networks that are here and connecting with those communities. the afghan diaspora community has responded in really tremendous ways and sprung into action to create a network of support for their newest afghan neighbors to welcome them into their community. host: "the hill" had a story about where refugees are heading. you mentioned most of the states. it also had hawaii, south dakota, and mississippi have resettled far less. as far as the states that take them, why the seven states? why is that list not expanded? guest: there are over -- nearly

all 50 states are receiving afghan refugees. 46 if i remember correctly. what resettlement agencies seek to prioritize in finding placements for afghan newcomers and all refugees, they seek to find the placements that can contribute to their success. in this case as the previous caller mentioned, there are many afghan diaspora communities and many of the afghans who are arriving now have community-based ties here in the united states for obvious reasons, having left their network, their friends, their families behind in afghanistan. they are eager to connect with afghan communities here and they are eager to connect with their community ties here in the united states. resettlement agencies have thought -- fought as much as possible to be able to enjoy

that -- ensure that our newest afghan neighbors can be resettled in communities where they have networks. give an extraordinary affordable housing challenges in many of those same states, it is not always possible. in many states, like oklahoma has created specific programs to incentivize and support afghan newcomers to come to their state. that is an interesting part of their refugee resettlement history. refugees have a history of rebuilding communities that have experienced population decline. many states are putting their hands up and asking to receive afghan refugees because they know it will help them rebuild their communities and rebuild their economies. host: this is nazanin ash joining us for this discussion, chief executive officer from welcome.us. rick is next. caller: i just want to make a

couple of comments. a lot of american soldiers died for those people over there. and they are supposed to come here. some of them will come to defend the country but they cannot defend their own country. none of these men should be allowed to get on any plane and they cannot even defend their own country. you had this cloud and -- clown in the white house. host: we will leave it to your first point. as far as prioritizing women and children versus men, our families -- are families generally kept together? guest: i think as many could imagine, staying together with our families is incredibly important and it makes a huge contribution to the success we can have here.

alongside the tremendous challenges that afghan newcomers are facing in rebuilding their lives in a new country, new context, new culture, and a language that is unfamiliar to them, still among the primary concern is the family left behind. afghanistan is experiencing an extraordinary humanitarian crisis. 60% of the country is in need of humanitarian aid and if things continue as they are, we can expect to see near poverty across the entire population. circumstances that they face were very much beyond their control. there was violence and uncertainty and instruction that put many lives at risk, including people who supported the u.s. mission in afghanistan, but also those who were advocating for human rights and for equal opportunity and now found themselves, literally

their lives in danger because of the help they were fighting for for their country. keeping families together is a really critical part of successful integration in the united states. i am glad to say that every effort was made to keep families together. host: as far as getting a job, what has to happen for a refugee who comes to the united states who is relocated in order for them to work here? guest: every afghan newcomer arriving in the united states arrives with work authorization. when they leave the military bases to go to their final communities, as part of the paperwork that was completed as their work authorization paperwork. they are able to be employed

immediately. we are experiencing an extraordinarily tight housing market. many private sector companies are putting up their hands to help facilitate jobs for our newest afghan neighbors. many come with english language because they worked with u.s. agencies, they work for u.s. nonprofits or media organizations. many come with language, but there are over 35,000 working age men and women in need of employment and while many come with language skills, many do not. what has been really heartening to see is private sector companies coming forward, offering jobs, but also offering training and mentorship programs that can help overcome the language and cultural and context barriers are newest afghan neighbors find their way in the united states.

host: let's hear from danny in maryland. caller: good morning. my question is we have a mixed bag of good and bad refugees from afghanistan. for example, some dudes came over and they had child brides. my question is out of all of the refugees that came, how many got sent back and how many were allowed to enter the country? you are on the side that sees the good ones but i wonder how many of the bad ones got sent back. thank you. guest: as we talked about earlier in the program, all of the afghan evacuees receive extensive security and background checks before they were allowed entry to the united states. i am not aware of those who have

been sent back and have encountered challenges since arriving. but there is no more rigorous pathway for security and background check than the refugee program and it was no different for these afghan arrivals. host: if they desire to become a u.s. citizen, do they go through the normal process? are they given an expedited process? guest: this is a really good question and it is one that faces congress right now. many of the afghans who have arrived on what is called humanitarian parole which provides safety and refuge and a legal right to stay in the united states for up to two years. what is before congress right now is the afghan adjustment act

which would give afghan arrivals the opportunity to transfer to permanent legal status after one year in the united states. otherwise, they will need to renew their humanitarian parole status and they will have to seek asylum. we know that there is already an asylum backlog of one million individuals and that could lead to a lot of uncertainty and instability. the regular refugee resettlement program allows refugees to apply for permanent legal status after one year and to apply for citizenship after five years here in the united states and that is the status we are seeking for afghan allies, but it will require congress to act. host: this is peter in florida. caller: thanks for taking my call. i'm going to throw three fastballs and i do not mean to be rude.

why do we tell the homeless people in miami living under bridges? we do not have any aid for the homeless. we are being evicted because we decided to let congress run the show. more people are becoming homeless. how much money per afghan refugee is being given every month to them so we can tell the homeless what they are not getting. are they getting healthcare and who are these private corporations that have these jobs and can help these people that are turning their back on the americans that are desperate? host: thanks. i will take a portion of what he said because you have addressed one of the things before. as far as healthcare, how is that in the united states? guest: they are eligible for the same programs that all low income americans are eligible for.

they are eligible for medicaid assistance and for other forms of low income assistance. what i would say to the caller is everyone deserves a shot. americans here who are living in poverty and do not have the services they need deserve the services that would help them be successful and services that refugees receive allow them to be successful. i did not see this as making a choice. we should help those in need and the history of assisting refugees is one that demonstrates that they have paid back that assistance multi fold in contributions here in the united states. host: the name of the organization is also the website welcome.us. if you want to find out more, nazanin ash serves as the chief

executive officer. thanks for your time. happy holidays. guest: happy holidays for you. host: for the next 25 minutes, we will return to the question about your levels of concern over the omicron variant. if you are vaccinated, (202) 748-8000. same thing if you're unvaccinated, (202) 748-8001. we will take those calls when "washington journal" continues. ♪ >> c-span is your unheard filtered -- unfiltered view of government. we are funded by these television companies and more, including sparklight. >> at sparklight, we are all facing our greatest challenge. sparklight is working around the clock to keep you connected. we are doing our part. >> sparklight supports c-span as

a public service along with these other television providers, giving you a front-row seat to democracy. >> next week starting sunday, december 26, watch washington journal's author series featuring each week a new writer. on sunday, jonathan with his new book. monday, joe lieberman. and on tuesday, heather mcgee with her book, "what racism costs everyone." on wednesday, andrew yang. on thursday, former trump commissioner dr. scott discusses

his book "uncontrolled spread." on friday, community activist bob woodson with his book, "red, white, and black." be sure to watch "washington journal" starting sunday with our special week of authors, on c-span, or with our mobile app c-span now. get c-span on the go. watch the biggest political events live or on-demand anytime, anywhere on our new mobile video app c-span now. access top highlights, listen to c-span radio, and discover podcasts for free. download c-span now today. "washington journal" continues. host: if you want to let us know

about your level of concern over omicron via text, it is (202) 748-8003. our social media challenge -- channels are open to you as well. it was during the president's speech yesterday that he discussed about those who have not received a booster shot. here he is. [video clip] pres. biden: another question folks are asking is what can you do to make yourself and your family be safer? the answer is simple. get your booster shot, wear a mask. doctors have made it clear, booster shots provide the strongest protection. we still have tens of millions of people who are eligible for the booster shot but have not yet gotten it. they have gotten the first two shots, but they have not gotten the booster. the booster shots are free and widely available. over 60 million americans,

including 62% of eligible seniors, our most vulnerable group, have gotten booster shots. i got my booster shot as soon as they were available. just the other day, former president trump announced he had gotten his booster shot. maybe one of the few things he and i agree on. people with booster shots are highly protected. join us. it has been six month or more since my second shot. if it has been six months since your second shot, you can get yours today. [end video clip] host: that full speech and the questions he took from the press available on our website c-span.org and the c-span now app. we will start with michael in mississippi on the line for those unvaccinated. good morning. caller: good morning. thanks for this program. it really helps look at what is happening in the nation.

my wife and i had covid two years ago. we were very sick for two weeks. it was really before there was any news. we are retired. i just knew it was the flu. we hunker down and it was the sickest we had ever been. but we got through. they did not have the test. my question is that we unvaccinated post covid patient are being ostracized like we are the worst person in the world. i have done the research. most people just listen to the news and that is all the time they have. the antibodies that we have our robust and -- are robust.

when they identify omicron, they turn on and they literally stay there. it has been proven. post covid patients are not a problem of spreading the disease. they are not the problem of anything healthwise and it is abominable what the health organizations and president biden and his advisors are making us the bad people. host: that is michael in mississippi. this is norman from massachusetts on the line for those who are vaccinated. hello. caller: this is actually rachel from massachusetts. i was norman's partner for 27 years and i am sad to report that he has passed away. we were both vaccinated.

i got my booster recently and i am very concerned about this new variant because i think i might have caught it. i'm going to be tested this morning. i feel some of the symptoms and it could just be a cold, but it could be this disease that is still being spread around and spiking once again in my community. for me, it is a big concern. host: i'm sorry for your loss. was the loss covid-related? caller: no, he died of cancer. host: i am very heart -- sorry to hear that. when it comes to yourself, you say that you felt symptoms. to what degree would you describe them? caller: i travel, transit picks me up at the door and takes me where i need to go and sometimes

there are other passengers. about a week and a half ago my the other passenger was elderly and sometimes people who are significantly older may have breathing issues. they wear their masks in the vehicle. this woman was unmasked and coughing and i felt worried. the symptoms came on just a few days ago. it is a dry little chest cough. it is kind of swollen glands and a runny nose and a feeling of tiredness that has got me concern and heading for the clinic for a test. host: i will let you go. the best of luck to you on your test. thanks for sharing your experience. let's hear from romney in north carolina on the line for those who are unvaccinated. caller: i was concerned about the vaccine because i have three

family members. vaccinated and -- got vaccinated and they wind it up passing away. i was concerned about getting it. i really don't know what to think about that. host: as far as your family members, sorry for those losses. in those cases, is it a case of the vaccine or are there other circumstances? how would you describe that? caller: they had adverse reactions. it was the vaccine. i have not been vaccinated. i have been around people with covid and i have not got covid. i am 24, young, and healthy and

i do not know whether i should get the vaccine are not. host: have you talked about -- have you talked to a doctor about this? caller: i have talked to a couple of doctors, but all they want to do is push it down your throat. host: that is ronnie in north carolina. susan in illinois on the line for those who are vaccinated. caller: there is a big secret going around with teenagers in schools. they are used to their masks, but if they are sick, they keep it a secret and they do not tell their parents. that is the worst thing they can do if people are spreading things around. teenagers do not want to be the first ones to tell anybody because they will get isolated from their friends. they do not want to be the first ones so everyone keeps it a secret. i think it is rampant in schools. parents will get it. my hospice nurse have covid six times -- had covid six times.

she has had blood tests to check your antibodies. while my husband was on hospice, i had it a couple of times. with my hospice nurse moving house to house, it was inevitable. her natural antibodies fought it off and my natural antibodies fought it off. host: you are calling on our vaccinated line. caller: ok. i am naturally vaccinated. host: i'm going to let you go. callers, pick the line that best represents you before you call in. (202) 748-8000 for those who are vaccinated. (202) 748-8001 if you are unvaccinated. aj in virginia on the line for those who are unvaccinated. caller: this is dj, not a j. i am 81 years old. i have never been concerned

since the start of this back in 2019. i have never gotten the flu. i have never gotten the flu shot. i believe most people if they use their heads would do the right thing for their bodies and keep their immune system. i personally am speaking from millions of people. we are so burned out about every news channel. it is cold it, covid -- it is covid, covid, covid everyday. we know there is stuff out there if you want to take it. please stop talking about covid. we are burnt out. host: covid is part of this broadcast because it is part of the administration's efforts and the federal government so it is part of our mission to cover those fronts. that is part of what we have been talking about these days and what we have been talking about for the last two years. let's go to ron in louisville,

kentucky on the line for those who are vaccinated. hello. caller: yes. i am vaccinated, but i'm having issues with my son. he says this and that about what is in them. the amish community, they do not take nothing and none of them have anything. host: to your son, what is the main reason for your son not taking it? caller: he said there are different things in it. i took it and i got the booster this morning. host: after that, he does not want to take it? caller: he will not. i preached to them, if you lose a loved one, you will wish you would have done it. like i said, the amish community , i asked about them and they do

not have tds. they do not get everything. host: that is wrong in kentucky. "the wall street journal" reports about leaders to talk with those in moscow. top russian officials have said they want to talk. the proposals moscow has forwarded world withdraw the terms of the post-cold war security order and establish influence on the periphery. moscow has given a list of guarantees that include preventing expansion further eastward, it would include ukraine in abandoning any nato military activities including training and exercises and the assistant u.s. secretary of state for european affairs said on tuesday that the u.s. "is prepared to discuss the proposals, but has its own concerns about russian military activity that it plans to raise. there are some things we are prepared to work on and we believe there is merit in having a discussion.

there other things that the russians know will be on acceptable." a specific date for the talks as yet been set. we will go to vicky in jersey who is vaccinated. hello. caller: how are you this morning ? host: i am fine. how about yourself? caller: very very good. i just wanted to say i have cancer and pulmonary disease and i was just in the hospital for blood clots. what scares me even more, and i am triple vaxxed. what scares me even more is i have many unvaccinated family members and my neighborhood is very red. i take care of myself, but what i do not like is the instant hatred that happens. my neighborhood is so red that we even had the black flag that was taken down within a day. i wish people would be more

respectful. so much as you wearing a mask and a call me a diaper or something like that. i am 70 years old. i have cancer and pulmonary disease. i have not said a word about your maskless face. let's just be neighbors. host: how often does this happen? caller: not too often, thank god in heaven. maybe 10 or 12 times. one time i ran out of walmart scared to death because someone started yelling at me because when i go into stores i double mask and i wear the face shield. i already had one foot on the banana peel staring at a dugout grave so i am doing all i can to protect myself. i honestly said i would not eat thanksgiving dinner with so many unmasked people. i love you all dearly, but i just cannot do this right now. host: we will hear from bill in

florida on the line for those who are unvaccinated. caller: how are you doing this morning? i wanted to let you know my concern. i am 80 years old, which is the number one concern. i am also diabetic. i had the two shots and then got my booster. a little while after that, i said i might as well get my flu shot. my concern is i have not had one reaction. i am thinking, is it working or is it just the circumstance that i am healthy enough that i do not get affected by these vaccines. host: you were expecting some type of reaction from the vaccine itself? caller: yeah. i have talked to people that have had the shots and they said , i thought i was going to die from the vaccine. i am thinking, does that mean it

is working? and i have not had any reaction. i am concerned about this new one, this -- i have to hope that the immunity is there at least a little bit. i hope everybody gets vaccinated. you have a chance that it may or may not affect you, but do not worry about it. i think you will be protected. host: let's go to larry in minnesota on the line for those who are unvaccinated. caller: howdy. i am not concerned at all. i had it twice. each time, i lost my sense of smell for about a week. have you people ever heard of acute respiratory disease? have you ever heard of that? it came from fort leonard wood

in 1971. it is a combination of pneumonia and malaria. i have had over 45 sessions of this since 1971. i afraid of nothing -- i am not afraid of nothing except stupid people that follow the idiot that help to produce this disease. this man belongs in front of a judge. host: we will leave it there. the website that deals with military affairs has a story posted yesterday. "u.s. army creates single vaccine against all covid and sars variants. scientists at the walter reed army institute of research announced they have developed a vaccine that is effective against covid-19 and its variants even omicron as well as previous viruses. the achievement as a result of two years of work on the virus.

the lab received his first sequencing of the virus in 2020 and it was very early on that walter reed's infectious disease branch with the folks making a vaccine that works well against not just the existing strain, but all of the potential variants." there is more to that story. defenseone.com if you want to read it. we will hear from barry on the line for those who are unvaccinated. caller: this is bringing out wickedness in people. i did not take the vaccine and it is not because i am made trump supporter. i have trust issues. i do not trust our current administration. plus, they are not letting anyone, any of these other doctors, these other scientists who disagree with them on tv. anyone who has taken anything

and survived it, it is misinformation. it is like they are not letting any healthy debate stir out of this. i'm going to give you a suggestion and i think everyone in america who hears what i'm going to say will agree. if they want everyone to be convinced of this, biden and trump should get up there together. they are both pushing it. host: president trump said just this week that he received his booster shot when it comes to covid. caller: sure. listen, up there together. host: president biden said he got his booster as well and that is something that he agrees with the former president on. caller: on the same stage together. host: what would that do? caller: many of the people who are believing in one or the other would dispel a lot of the

distrust. the people that are trusting one or the other, even though the man said -- caller: good morning. merry christmas. i want to address a couple of previous callers. the gentleman who had been in the hospital and his doctors recommended him not getting the vaccine, that happens. people that have been vaccinated, we are not harping on you. we know there are circumstances out there. that is not the general population. to the lady from pennsylvania that said that she is not going to get a vaccine because it keeps changing, since the beginning of the pandemic, i

have heard the scientists and the medical professions say that this is a new virus and we are learning things every day. every day, it is changing so we have to change with the virus. the scientists are not changing come about the virus itself is changing so we have to be able to adapt to it as it changes. we need to educate ourselves and that would help us. my suggestion is that we have separate hospitals. one for the vaccinated and one for the unvaccinated. we will see where that gets us. host: sorry about that. one more call. this is laura in spokane, washington for those who are unvaccinated. hello. caller: i just wanted to say that the reason why i have unvaccinated -- i am unvaccinated is because of the conflicting directions they give out with no -- i cannot hear

you. host: i am not talking. you are watching me on television. that is why you think i am talking. finish your thought. caller: ok. host: when you said conflicting information, what do you mean by that? caller: because it started out that the original virus, corona, would affect people, older people and people with compromised immune systems. you have a nice smile, pedro. and now all of a sudden we have these variants and these variants are always weaker because corona needs to survive so it keeps changing a characteristic. what i hear from biden and all these other stuff, if you are not vaccinated, you are killing

everybody and all this other stuff. i get outraged. i have not been vaccinated. i am not planning on it because i live in an area that is my own. i want to say that all of this hatred and wishing people were dead because they supported president it is awful. host: laura from washington finishing us off this hour. thank you for calling. thank you for all of you who participated. we will turn our attention to the topic of work, particularly what happens when industrial areas across the united states lose jobs because of plants closing. it is the subject of the book by both surprise winning journalist farah stockman. her book is called “american made: what happens to people when work disappears" we will have that conversation when washington journal continues. ♪ >> c-span is your unfiltered

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the west side indianapolis facility will end operations next wednesday. the last major round of layoffs happened in september. host: the closing of that factory in indianapolis was the subject of a book by farah stockman called “american made: what happens to people when work disappears." thanks for joining us. guest: thanks for having me. host: how did you come across the story of this plant and what story are you trying to tell from the closing? guest: i started working on the book the night of the election. i was dispatched to be part of the new york times coverage of what everybody thought would be the first female president, the election of the first female president. i went to hillary clinton's alma

mater. i was standing around with people who were waiting to celebrate her victory. we all saw what happened next. i am from michigan. i grew up in the rust belt. i started asking around. why donald trump? what is it about this guy who had never served one day in office, not one day in government at any level? how is this some -- how is it so many millions of americans voted for him? i started hearing back he is going to save my job, my factory. that is what maybe want to follow this, to see what it feels like when your job is sent away. that is how i started this book. host: talk about the plant itself. what did they make there?

what led to the job being transferred and where did it go? guest: they made ball bearings and roller bearings. it is kind of an anonymous gadget that is in every machine that moves. the plant had been in indianapolis -- that plant had been there since the 1950's. it had been there a long time. it moved to mexico for a couple reasons. one is that a few years prior the company had asked the union to basically cut worker pay by 30%. if you do not agree to this, we are going to move the plant. workers rallied. they got it back, but they ended

up deciding they would make more money if they moved it to monterey, where workers got paid three dollars an hour instead of $25 an hour. host: in part of the book, you offer profiles of three workers. one of them, shannon, is part of the profile. talk about her story and how it relates to the larger picture especially when the situation of a drop going overseas happens. guest: shannon was a single mom. she had worked her way up from being a janitor at the plant to being one of the most dangerous and highly paid jobs on the factory floor. she was the first woman to get that job. when she started her training commitment tried to get her fired. they played tricks on her. they did not teacher.

they did everything they could to get her fired at first because she was the first woman and one of the guys told her it was not for a woman. she overcame a lot of obstacles to get that job. the whole reason she had the job was because she had been an abused woman. she had been with a guy who used to beat her up and she got the confidence and money to leave him through the job at the factory, which she got through her uncle. to me, she was the last person i expected to meet at a plant like that. when you think of steelworker, you do not think battered woman, but that is what shannon was. i came to see her as a blue-collar feminist who was out there trying to become a breadwinner for her family. host: farah stockman is the

author of the book and serves on the new york times editorial board, here to talk about the findings of her book and the nature of work and what happens in the situations she has described. if you want to ask her questions, it is (202) 748-8000 for those in the eastern and central time zones. (202) 748-8001 in the mountain and pacific time zones. perhaps you are unemployed and can relate to themes in the book. (202) 748-8002 is the number to call. you can also text us at (202) 748-8003. you write in the book, work matters. often those who champion the working-class think only of social safety nets, not the jobs that make a working person's identity. can you elaborate on that question mark? -- on that? guest: the people i followed were not looking for a government check in the mail. they look down on those who lived off safety nets that they had not paid into.

one of the guys i followed was named john. he was the union vice president. he was a white guy who came from a diehard union family. he was the grandson of coal miners. i followed him after the factory had closed. he had to go get unemployment insurance. there was a problem with his check. he was running around trying to fix it. they had to pay the rent. he told me, at least i paid into the system all my life. i can handle excepting a government check for something i paid into all my life. if it is welfare -- the word welfare made him bristle. a lot of these steelworkers i followed had family members, relatives, neighbors, friends who did game the system, who did not work as hard as maybe they

could have. for a lot people i followed, they took pride in not doing that, and being able to support themselves and not game the system or live off the government. one of your recent callers said it. he does not trust the government. a lot of people do not. imagine being forced to live off a social safety net, being forced to run the gauntlet of trying to make sure the government check you rely on comes. that is not the reality of these people want. they are not sitting around talking about universal basic income, at least not the ones i was following. host: you started by talking about the election of president trump. he tweeted about the situation there. what was the reaction among

workers at the plant? guest: a couple weeks after he was elected, he tweeted it was closing and moving to mexico. he was talking about them viciously firing their workers. workers of that plant, shannon, she thought president trump or president-elect trump is thinking about me. me personally. he created this feeling he cared about them personally and they sat around for hours discussing what does he mean? does it mean this plant is not going to close? does it mean no more after this plant? they took him at his word. there were workers who were writing to him daily on social media begging him to save the plant until the very end.

workers who had no plan for what was going to happen to them after the plant closed. they kept writing to trump and thinking he was going to come and save the day. some of us do not -- i personally did not understand the extent to which this promise to say factory jobs because people to put their faith in him. it was such a big thing at his rallies. he would talk about i am never going to eat another oreo cookie after the factory that mix oreos moved to mexico. this was part of his rally. i think a lot of us missed it we were not living in an industrial town in the midwest that got hollowed out. host: if your offer twitter talked about the situation that

occurred there and what role the union played. they say unions backed politicians who supported nafta. guest: the union leader that caught the attention of sony journalists, chuck jones, he got into the high-profile twitter war with trump around this time. trump had spoken a lot about a factory that belonged to the same union. he and mike pence announced a deal to save jobs at carrier. trump said he was saving all the jobs. in fact, some of the drums were

still moving. chuck jones called trump out, called him a liar. it became an ugly feud. a lot of union members were angry at chuck jones for doing that. they blamed chuck, not trump, for the fact that the factory continued to move because they said trump would have saved us if chuck had not started that feud. and chuck was ungrateful. it is interesting. i think trump wanted to be a champion for workers, but he did not champion unions at all. he wanted to cut out the middleman. he knew there were people who thought unions were insular, took too many dues and did not deliver enough. part of that is because republicans past things like

right to work laws that have made it harder for unions to actually continue to survive. host: let's take calls. this is from michael in new york. you were on with the author of this book, “american made: what happens to people when work disappears." go ahead. caller: the problem is we have a global economy, which is important. america is losing its war on technology and manufacturing and need a national program like the new deal, which roosevelt had in 1930's to start rebuilding the american economy. $3000 a month. it includes rental and food

assistance and establishes a national minimum wage of $15 an hour and a national health plan that would be like the affordable health plan but for everybody. we need a new marshall plan or a new deal to restore the american economy. host: thank you. guest: i wish i could've have asked him a question, but i think there is a lot of truth to what he is saying. of course globalization is there. nafta did not create it. china did not create it. our leaders have been trying to figure out how to navigate it. the problem is that there are parts of the american electorate and economy that have benefited

from globalization. companies have done well under globalization and under free trade agreements. college educated people like myself have tended to do well. workers, average, ordinary workers have not done as well. the wages of americans who do not have college degrees have flatlined. they have not done as well. they are suffering. we haven't actually -- there's a disconnect between people in washington who make decisions about the economy, about tax policy come about trade agreements, about these things that shape the direction of the economy. those people are people with college degrees. those people are the kind of people who benefited from globalization and free trade agreements. they have not really understood

what is going on in parts of the country that have been hit hard by globalization and free trade agreements. i should say i think trump and biden have taken steps to change course. there are people now talking about what globalization looks like when it is centered on ordinary people, not just corporations. corporations want to sidestep minimum wage laws come environment of standards. they want to pay as little as possible. if globalization just facilitates that, we are going to get a race to the bottom, but maybe we can have a globalization that looks different. i also want to say the caller was right about health care. in a world where people are

working in a gig economy, where we are not going to spend at one company, health matters and should not be tied to employment. that is what -- was one of my big takeaways. all the people i followed struggled to find affordable health care. one of my friends i was following, a steelworker, did not go to the hospital he had chest pain. he died because he did not have health care. we cannot go on like this is a country where so many people do not have access to health care. look at the pandemic and how many people lost their jobs and health care in the pandemic. host: this is sean in colorado. caller: obviously this lady is a

liberal that hates trump. i had real questions for her about private equity and hedge funds that have come in and taken these companies apart with help from swamp creatures in washington that destroyed jobs. obviously she's protecting the hedge funds and private equity groups that actually even dismantled this company. guest: i write about that in my book. he is right, private equity and short-term thinking is a big part of the reason this company, this factory closed. absolutely. there was two private equity companies who bought the company that owns the factory. one of them is called apollo.

it bought the company, borrowed almost $400 million in its name, took most of that money, put it in its own pocket, and then sold the shares. basically, there was a lot of debt from the privilege of being owned by apollo. that is one of the things the ceo was trying to balance. they were trying to pay back all the debt that apollo had put on them. i write in the book that if an individual drive someone to a bank and forces them to borrow a bunch of money and hand over the money, that is larceny. if private equity does it, it is leverage. they were like bandits.

i do not say that lightly. i looked into it. it was very unsavory. family-owned companies have tried for decades to get by without layoffs. private equity does not care. they have no allegiance to american workers. they do not have allegiance to places where these factories are. i think the caller is right that the financial system in this country is losing credibility, not only because of the financial crisis that spread a contagion around the world in 2008 but because of the hollowing out of american towns across the country. they should stand for account

because that is not corporate response ability. i think there has to be more balance, more long-term thinking and places that -- companies and factories that are family-owned rather than at the mercy of wall street have done better at keeping jobs, at keeping americans employed. host: you tell a story either in the piece or in the book that when it comes to the one worker, shannon, she was comparing how much she made to how much her counterpart for mexico makes. will you tell that story? guest: i should say everybody at the plant agonized over whether to train their mexican replacement. it was a huge issue. broke friendships. it caused turmoil. shannon decided, i'm going to do

it. i am going to train my replacement because i need the bonus and i have to keep a roof over my kids' heads. she had taken one of the mexican trainees into this laboratory where she worked and showed him her paycheck. how much are you -- they paying you? he says there does a calculation and says, 16. they can get 16 ricardo's for one shannon. that is why they are closing. she was stunned and like, they have the money. they use -- just do not want to give it to you. she was saying, why don't you join a union, try to get more? i think that is the anecdote. i should also say she forged a

close bond with another of the mexican trainees who was the same age as her son. she was protective of him. she was afraid if she left him alone in the plant somebody might do something to him. at the end of the training, he takes her aside and puts his hand over his heart like he is trying to apologize to her for taking the job. taking her job. she said, i was blessed to have this job and i hate to see it go but now it is your turn to be blessed. they are still friends to this day. i found him in monterey, mexico. i went and interviewed a lot of mexican trainees as part of the book. to a person, they were disturbed

by the experience of watching a company through its workers away. they saw that they also would be thrown away i that company in a heartbeat. and they left. mexicans who she had trained left within months and became socialists. he said, this is wrong. it was an extra ordinary thing to hear their point of view. host: we will hear from cindy in illinois. caller: you was talking about president trump and campaigning about the oreo cookie and the plant. you also don't remember how he got on the gm and was trying to close them. he did do a lot of stuff, like the mexico-canada-america agreement.

what do you think about biden? about electric cars and how he is propping up union jobs over nonunion jobs. i believe it is not part of the president to do that. i believe he is overstepping the constitution. what do you think about these companies paying millions of dollars a year to the democrat and the rino's to keep illegal immigrants here to keep wages down? if you was one of the workers you were talking about out of the plant like we was and see how terrible they are treating american citizens over non-american citizens, i believe you would talk a little bit less. if you believe the union should have all the jobs and nonunion workers should not have any jobs -- what do you think about the unions as the president and

democrat party take this money from corporate offices to keep cheap labor? host: let me stop you there. guest: i would love to know what factory she worked at. host: she hung up. guest: i always want to ask. host: give me a heads up next time so i keep them on. guest: sian vesely worked on a factory floor. i think there is more continuity between biden and trump on this that people want to admit. i think the renegotiation of nafta was a bipartisan thing that no one wants to talk about. it would not have happened without trump, but it would not have been as good for labor without democrats, who worked to change the playing field on labor. i am working on a piece about this now.

a lot of the media downplayed the renegotiation of nafta, saying it is not that different than the original but it is. it gives more rights to workers in mexico. it puts more teeth into labor enforcement. it has a rapid response mechanism if workers in mexico are being prevented from unionizing. they have recourse for the first time. we do not know if it is going to work yet. the jury is still out, but it is different than the original nafta, which hardly gave workers rights a second thought. globalization is here to stay. it is not going away.

we have to figure out a way to make it better for workers. the reason it matters for american workers is if mexican workers can unionize and have -- fight for higher wages, that removes some of the incentive to move to mexico. if you look back at the promises of what nafta was supposed to do, it was supposed to raise standards for mexico, raise standards for mexican workers. raise the pay. there were supposed to be this convergence. that never happened. i think the way forward for the world is for environmental standards and labor standards to improve around the world so when we are importing products it is not made with slave labor, under

duress, by companies who just pour poisons into rivers. that is not fair trade. that is not the kind of trade we want. i am more hopeful. the colorado -- caller also talks about nonunion jobs and whether biden is privileging union jobs over nonunion jobs. biden talks a lot about unions. i do not know about her specifics but it is true that biden and a lot of democrats believe rights for working people means fighting for unions. and the ability to unionize. there is that. host: in detroit, michigan, we will hear from alex.

our guest may want to ask you a question as well. caller: good morning. ms. stockton, you are a breath of fresh air. the union i work in had a maximum of 20,000 people. when i left 48 years later, they were about 1000 and closed that union down to go to another union. i have friends that are still working who relocated to tennessee. the people down there are so brainwashed into thinking because of right to work and they make so little money when they brought the jobs in.

they really are just sacrificing. they do not want to join unions because they are afraid they might close their plant and move somewhere else, that they do not want to pay people enough money. it is amazing. we used to actually go out and pick it even grocery stores who were bought out by big chains who was going to come in and remove the union and make it nonunion. you could drive a car and park it into a union job place. back in 1967, we were campaigning buy american. it is so amazing now that is the

slogan everybody wants to talk about after the jobs have left. host: hold the line because i want to see if our guest wants to ask a question. guest: i appreciate the sentiments expressed. i guess i am curious what the young people in his community are doing now. for work. caller: there probably at mcdonald's or a short order cook somewhere making $10 an hour. or a lot of the spinoff plans that were jobs inside the plans when i was in there, a lot of the executives might have left and started little companies. and bring them back into the plant so they cannot have to pay people inside the plant to do those parts.

that is prevalent in michigan. a lot of little plants that are doing parts and stuff. host: thanks for your perspective. guest: i have a lot of family in detroit. a lot of them moved up from the deep south to work in auto plants of detroit. it was a great living for a long time, especially for black people who have been paid next to nothing picking cotton. i know very much what he is talking about. it is complicated too because unions were so strong. auto unions were so strong. they got a great deal for their people. if you remember the strikes after world war two culminated

in the treaty of detroit in 1950. they signed us -- essentially a deal. some people think it was the backbone of the middle class in the united states, health care, pensions, all kinds of stuff that had only been available to management. now all of a sudden you got it as a worker. that set the gold standard for what an employer should give workers around the country. even if you are not in a union, unions can still set the standard for what a good employer is giving. that was the beginning of the golden age of manufacturing in the united states. it was why we had this period of growth in the middle class among people who had access to those

jobs. a lot black people did not. women did not at first. then we had a civil rights movement to get access to those jobs. they made some strides. as soon as they made strides from out the factory started moving away. this is a history that is affecting millions of people around the country. a lot of people blame unions. they say the autoworkers were making so much money on the factory floor. they did not want to take a promotion because if they can became a manager they would make less. that is real. they were making a lot of money. i do not blame the unions for that. it created more pressure later

to say, let's move this plant. it is cheaper to move it away. host: we heard in ministrations talk about the value of programs when situations occur like they did at the plant. are there examples of how the programs work? guest: they are not great lessons. i did not know too many workers who did the job retraining. there were a lot of hoops they had to jump through, a lot of red tape they had to cut through to get a program approved. the kind of things people were doing with the retraining -- one guy got an hvac recertification. another became a truck driver. they were not making anywhere close to what they were making.

if you look at the studies of the program, you will find people have gone through it and ended up making less money. end up making less money that if they had just been given unemployment insurance for that time. i do not think we have the answer yet. this is a shift of the economy. people in their 40's, it is not so easy for them to go back and retrain for a drop of the future. in fact, even for a 20-year-old right now, i do not know what to tell them to train. i do not know what field they should go into to have a definite job in the future because that is how quickly the economy is shifting. it is tough to say a government

program is a solution for these workers. it is hard, especially the older ones. they just want to get another job. the ones that i followed, they were taking jobs that were earning $15 an hour, $10 less than they were making before just so they could get back to work. host: let's hear from alan in indiana. caller: good morning. thank you for accepting my call. greatest show ever in the history of cable. i love this. i had a couple comments. i would like to see what miss talked and -- missed stockton says. we talked about trump and annapolis. donald trump is a demagogue he knows how to work with crowds

and say with the people want to hear. one of them was he said he would bring back manufacturing and corporate taxes are too high, that is why they left. we need to give more money to the rich and they will help us, which is a fallacy. at least be honest. trump did try to keep those from closing in ohio. all you did was say don't close. that did not happen. they closed anyway. i do not believe corporate taxes had anything to do with these manufacturers leaving the united states. i put that at ronald reagan's feet. i know he was against unions.

he felt give more money to the rich and they will take care of americans. the government are not good to take care of you. he lowered corporate taxes. that is when you started getting corporate takeovers dividing up these companies. he encouraged companies to move to foreign countries for cheaper labor. host: what would you like our guest to address? caller: do you think ronald reagan was the stimulus -- or made it easier for manufacturers -- michael moore even had a shower he snuck into meetings the government had about the advantages of manufacturers to relocate there. guest: a lot of people blame reagan for the firing of the air traffic controllers and say that

was the beginning of the end of unions in the country. did reagan encourage globalization and the off shoring of american manufacturing? i am not sure i have heard that before, but what i can say is that for more than 30 years it did not matter what party you were from. if you were an american president, you were supporting free trade until trump. trump was the first american president since before bill clinton who said no to free trade. he got a lot of crap for it because there are parts of the country that rely on exporting. they were afraid of the trade wars that were going to start.

it is complicated. i think there is an economic populist faction of the democratic party and republican party who have always been angry about unfettered trade. look at how our workers are getting screwed. it encompasses people like sherrod brown in ohio, who is a democrat and even jesse helms was talking about this stuff. it does not fall easily on republicans and democrats -- democrat lines. bill clinton signed nafta. he sold it to the american people. he is hated to this day in large parts of the midwest because of it.

i walked in the union hall in indianapolis and heard the story for the first time from these steelworkers who said -- one of them told me my daddy would roll over in his grave if you knew i had ever cast a ballot for a republican. i come from a long line of democrats. we were coal miners. i was always told don't cast a ballot for the republicans. those are greedy pastors. democrats -- bastards. democrats are for the working man. after bill clinton, factories started closing. this particular steelworker told me he stopped calling himself a democrat. he was angry. he thought the democrats had sold out the working people. he enthusiastically cast a ballot for trump.

a lot people do not understand the depth of anger at nafta, at bill clinton for nafta, the sense of betrayal. there was no way they were going to vote for hillary clinton because of it. host: you write, the fear of being replaced, of no longer being needed, is an anxiety that has only grown with time. billions of americans are coming of age in places where jobs are expected to be outsourced or automated in the coming decade. the deep insecurity of unskilled workers has been exacerbated by a global pandemic that put millions of people out of work. even with this new variant, how much do you see the pandemic being part of concerns you write about particularly for unskilled workers? guest: i did not miss a day of work because of the pandemic.

the pandemic was great for me financially. i did not have to go to work. i did not have to risk my life to work. why? because i'm in the knowledge economy. i can set in front -- sit in front of a computer. people who take a shower after work instead of before work, those are the people who could not really work during the pandemic. bus drivers, cashiers, nurses, all of these people who have put their lives on the line to bring home a paycheck. that was a new dividing line that we have in our country, between those who could essentially escape unscathed and those who had to risk their lives every day to go to work. i want to say thank you to those people who risk their life every day to go to work and keep the

economy running. the pandemic, the generous checks that came from the government during the pandemic did allow workers breathing room, those who are laid off at factories. something like half of americans had twice as much money in their bank account as an 2019. in 2020. you can see the research on bank accounts. people had savings for the first time, some of them in their lives. shannon earned more money staying home during covid then she had when she had been working. that can tell you that people now have choices because they do not have to run back to a job that they did not love. i think that is part of what we

are grappling with, people saying, where should i end up? do i really go back to that terrible job that did not value me? i do not know. i am hoping we get a better deal for workers out of it. i am hoping we get back to normal soon. host: about 10 more minutes with our guest, farah stockton them up of “american made: what happens to people when work disappears." bill is next. caller: i will hang on. i would like to get the author's perspective on china. before president trump, there were no tariffs put on china. most things were made in china. we lost a lot of our workers to

china. as far as that goes, the pharmaceutical industry, all of the ingredients are made in china. i would like to know how the author feels regarding president trump finally said he was the only president to do it. china, you have to pay mac a tariff -- pay a tariff. he wanted to get them back. we do not have manufacturing companies as far as pharmaceuticals in the united states. and tried to get the auto industry back. china did not want to pay the tariffs. how much control do you feel china has? now they are going after wall street. do you think they were man enough? look what is going on. they had the wuhan incident.

they are very strong. i would like to get your perspective. do you think he should not have put the tariff on china? did that make china mad? guest: it is a great question and that i would not say we do not make any pharmaceuticals here. we do make a lot, particularly the really expensive namebrand drugs, but it is true that we rely on china for many things, everything from penicillin to insulin and large amounts of the active ingredients from any pharmaceuticals come from china. i think trump was right to put tariffs on china. i do not know if i am -- i am probably a minority here in mainstream media who think this,

but if you talk to people privately in business a lot of them agree something had to be done. part of the reason is that we went into a trade relationship with china without really taking into account what their system really was. a lot people thought china will become a democracy. they would start operating by free-market rules. they did not. they subsidized their products. they subsidized -- they have a plan. they released the plan. they said, we are going to dominate in these industries. they were not secretive about it. they overproduced steel. they can produce steel below the cost of production and sell it below the cost of production.

they can flood our market in ways that put our people out of business and then they gain a market share and can jack up the price. our open system is so easy to manipulate. it did not anticipate an actor quite like this before. i do not want to demonize china. i respect chinese leaders for doing what they think is best for their people. they are putting their steelworkers to work. they are figuring out how their steelworkers can have jobs. they have long-term thinking about how they can bring people out of poverty. they have used the international system to bring their people out of poverty. they have used american companies and the greed of american companies to bring chinese people out of poverty.

it is in some ways a great benefit to the world, but i think it is the american government -- it is my view that the american government's job is to look after the american people. to do that, we have to also improve our game. how are we going to be able to survive economically if we have a system that is essentially created to exploit our open markets without offering us the same reciprocal access? we cannot sell things in china as easily as they can sell things here. if there is a lucrative business that americans created, and

china they are going to replicate it and they are not going to let our businesses in. i think maybe it took someone who did not worry about being liked by the establishment to do this because a lot of people are making a lot of money in china. there was a time in wall street you could not have a company that was not in china. if your factory was not moving in china, wall street did not like you. your stock prices were not going to be where they should be. to this day, i think -- i was in new york last week. someone made a remark at a dinner that washington and new york are going in different directions on china, that washington wants to get tougher on china and have a plan economically for how to deal with china but new york does not

because new york is the financial part of the country and the financier -- the market is in asia. the growth is in asia. we have to be part of that. the problem is who is the we? it is financiers, people sitting in indianapolis are not part of the same we. that is part of what is going on in our body politic. there is a vast disconnect. it used to be what was good for an american company was good for american workers, american governments, american consumers. that is not true anymore. what is good for an american company is not necessarily good for american workers. we do not even know what an american company is anymore because companies are multinational.

our rules and laws are still based on national borders of government. these are big picture questions when it comes to trying to find a solution. host: what eventually happened to the people you profiled in your book? guest: shannon got another job. she is working at a popcorn factory now. john ended up working at a hospital. he struggled with whether you should become a steelworker again. he did not want to go through that again. wally, a wonderful man i followed -- you will have to read the book to see what happened to him. host: as you follow up on this book, how does it change your

perspective on where you go as far as reporting on issues of jobs or manufacturing or labor in the united states? guest: i think we need to talk more about it. i think the conversation in washington -- conversations can get politically polarizing because people are not listening to each other. a lot of issues are why people are voting the way they are voting. i am encouraging people to listen more to people like your callers. even if you get a few details wrong when you ask questions, the sentiment behind it, there is merit to it. it matters. we should listen to people more. i think part of the frustration with washington is people do not feel heard. as for all of trump's unforgivable antics, i think he

made people feel heard on the issue of trade. host: farah stockton is an editorial board member of "the new york times." she is also the author of “american made: what happens to people when work disappears." happy holidays to you. coming up on the program a few minutes from now, you will hear from retired general -- the former nato --ukraine. this is hosted by the atlantic. coverage expected to start momentarily. that is it for our program. another edition of washington journal comes your way tomorrow morning at 10 a.m. see you then. ♪