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r monday morning focus on the fight against covid-19 and we are joined by insider health care reporter andrew dunn. good morning. guest: good morning, thanks for having me. host: we hear that people write articles and talk about the next generation of covid-19 vaccines. what are people referring to specifically when they say that? guest: that's a great place to start stuff i think there is some uncertainty out exactly what we are talking about. one word that is thrown around a lot is pan coronavirus, covering multiple coronaviruses and depending who you ask, the use that word differently. they could be talking about sars-cov-2 variance of this particular pandemic or other people are looking at multiple coronaviruses like a family of viruses when you think of the 2003 outlook of sars in the 2014 outbreak of mers, could there be

a vaccine that works on multiple families? what exactly are we talking about? for the most part, i think people are looking for the next generation vaccine designed and tailored for this pandemic with what we are seeing with the different variance coming out. can there be a new vaccine that is more effective against a wider range of variance. host: you wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago about the omicron focus, the development of that vaccine and pfizer plans to start human test of its covid-19 vaccine before the end of january. what is it take for a company like pfizer to start a research study on of specific vaccine like this? guest: this is one of the

marvels of modern science. these mrna vaccines, this is a new technology around messenger rna and you become the genetic code that ourselves -- that ourselves are taught to make the spike protein that is protective against sars covid to ideally. it's a very quick process to update these vaccines. the one thing to keep in mind is that was the promise. there could be a quick strain change and you can stay on top of it. the timelines moving quicker. i think with the omicron search, we are hopefully past the peak. it moves really quickly. as far as where they are now,

pfizer says they are on track for this 90 day timeline, looking at late march to start rolling out and omicron specific booster. modernity has also talked about a similar timeline but they started to talk more recently about preparing for this fall. they are thinking if there's going to be another surge or another wave about raikes with colder weather later this year, they want to start thinking about that and what's the best formulation of their vaccine to take that on. host: some people could say 90 dowse -- 90 days down the road that they've survived covid so why should i get the booster? what does pfizer say about the efficacy of a vaccine locust on omaha ron? do they think this will likely be helpful in fighting future

variance? guest: that's part of the thinking is that the omicron strain has strayed so far away from the original coronavirus strain we saw in january, 2020 that this could basically get your level of immunity closer to what's currently circulating out there. this is a debate going on in research labs right now. they are wondering what the best formulation of their vaccine is, thinking about future variant s. would it go back to something more like delta? those are hard predictions to make. omicron came out of left field. we saw the reduced vaccine effectiveness from two doses. it's hard to answer that question. they hope that in omicron

specific vaccine would be closer to the current state of the pandemic and be helpful against future variance but they are not making any promises, humility has been a k lesson of the entire pandemic. they are trying their best to prepare. host: what are researchers finding in terms of the immunity levels of people who have had the omicron variant? guest: this is still emerging research. there is a lot you can based on previous variants. at the starting point, there is natural immunity from an infection and recovering from an infection of the virus, that provides real benefits and we see that with other viruses historically and we've seen that with sars covid two. some of the earliest data comes out on a daily is data suggest

that will not be different for omicron. how durable is that protection. if you get infected, how long are you protected? there is really no way of knowing that without following people on a long-term basis. it's not the most satisfying answer. unfortunately, it's hard to say. host: our guest is andrew dunn who covers health issues for insider. we are talking about the future of covid-19 vaccines and we welcome your calls and comments. we saw this headline at the bbc -- the first generation of covid-19 vaccines was developed in record time but scientists have grander plans for potent

immunity and mutation proofing. do researchers feel they have bought some breathing room with the vaccines that are out there? do they feel they now have the time to develop a longer-term vaccine against covid? guest: yes,, this is happening at a lot of universities and government funded research restart with the idea of a pan coronavirus vaccine. it's something that could be mutation resistant or variant proof. that's kind of the holy grail of the vaccine now. these vaccines are early stages in the most advanced one is that the walter reed army research

where they developed a vaccine that is hopefully effective against an entire range of variants and future variances to come. we heard a lot about this in december and we haven't seen a phase one study result. there is a lot of excitement about what's happening. it's another step. i'm looking forward to seeing some of the data that's being tested as a three dose vaccines are not ideal if you think about global immunity and something that's easy to transport and use around the world. it's the balancing act of three doses that would get you better immunity but is there a way to have a good enough vaccine in a single dose if you are thinking about a global campaign? host: we will get to your calls in a moment.

anthony fauci testified before congress last week and he touched >> there are fundamentalc issues that are discovery, that once you get the discovery, then you can do the implementation of that discovery. we were very fortunate in that the basic research and clinical research that had been made literally for decades prior to the new revelation that we had a very threatening virus among us was the reason why we were able to use new platform technology as well as image and designed to get highly successful and safe vaccines. that same thing is going on right now. it isn't well-known because it isn't front-page yet.

you know as a scientist, it's only until you get the result that people really understand what you've been doing. there is a lot of investment not only in improving the vaccines that we have for covid, a lot of work as i mentioned, looking at the tools of fundamental basic and applied science to develop next generation vaccines, particularly universal coronavirus vaccines. we won't be chasing after the next variant. we will have a vaccine that has the capability of responding to every iteration of a variant. there is a lot of work going on without right now. when you are doing basic research, which you can appreciate, that usually isn't well recognized by the public. host: dr. fauci talked about

chasing the latest variant, have researchers felt like that? guest: that's the only way to look at it. when you look at the mrna vaccines, there is a new variant and we could quickly adapt to that and roll out a new formulation. the timeline of doing that is incredibly impressive. at the same time, the speed of the pandemic has rolled that over. dr. fauci put it really well. it's worth noting that his agency has given out $36 million in grant funding.

a lot of academic labs are looking at the next generation of covid vaccines. you are absolutely right. that is one of the key challenges. are we going to be chasing different strains? is there a better way to get ahead of this variant? host: let me ask you about therapeutics. one of the leading tools in terms of therapeutics? mark on twitter wants to know why we aren't fast tracking therapeutics. caller: this has been a fast-moving with omicron. some treatments have gotten bumped down as far as their utility because of this new variant. when you think about some of the antibody cocktail's for people who have early cases of covid and a high risk of hospitalization, to treat them early with antibodies was very

effective against previous variant. now some of these drugs are effectively knocked down and not that potent against omicron. we are looking at regeneron. they have showed reductions and effectiveness. the good news is there are some other antibody drugs. that is still retaining its effectiveness as an antibody drug. finally there is this bill everyone has heard of from pfizer. supplies are extremely limited at this point because they're not having much of a real world impact. when we look at the latter half of this year, those pills should be in much higher quantities in terms of manufacturing. the idea is if you have covid or postexposure where if you are exposed to some of covid, even if you don't test positive, they

are authorized for early treatment. by the latter half of this year, the hope they will be authorized for both. that could be an early treatment , easy to get eventually. it can keep people out of the hospital and knock this back to an endemic. host: let's go to our collars. good morning. caller: i want to congratulate his excellent publication. if you don't read insider, you're not keeping up with things. my statement is this. pfizer and modernity -- modernity was conducted with public money in university laboratories. pfizer was lavishly subsidized and their affection in utilizing the technology. then they were given the patent. they quashed the use.

india could've produced these early on and distribute them in the third world were most of the people live and where these new variants have a lot of room to develop. this is a fast musette in virus. coronaviruses are always fast mutating. we faced a tough enemy. it talk about social organization, china responded with the covid free policy. they've only had four deaths since april 2020. some people say you can't test -- trust china, singapore, south korea, straley, new zealand all use the same policy with similar results. most of them were pushed out by businesses. host: specifically in the comments about the vaccine worldwide and his call for

pfizer and moderna to make them more available worldwide. guest: that is one of the most interesting and depressing points of the pandemic, is the global inequity of vaccines. it's hard to reckon sometimes, in my own mind, we are rolling out third and fourth doses in richer nations while a lot of countries are still struggling to get first doses. more recently as the supply has caught up with lower income countries, the infrastructure hasn't. in order to send out public messaging, they can prepare accordingly. all of those have been massive

failures by the health system. i think he brings up a good point. the patents and how they have prioritized rich countries or taken the bulk of early orders from rich nations, it's worth examining. is there a better way to do it? there were no easy solutions as far as india. that is absolutely true for traditional vaccines. it was not convincing if india had the capacity to mass manufacture mrna vaccines. there is a different level of complexity with protein vaccines. the fact that it's a different technology limited the number of manufacturers around the world who had the expertise. host: mark is in maryland. good morning. caller: good morning.

the last caller took a little bit of the wind out of my sails with some questions about the pharmaceutical industry. what other industry has paid out more money in damages over the last 20 years, it's the pharmaceutical industry. why are we getting pfizer wall-to-wall commercials. every time joe biden gets in front of a microphone, it seems like the population is in a mass hypnosis right now where we are worried about a disease with a 99.96% survival rate. on a daily basis, we are bombarded with covid commercials. whether it's listening to that idiot faucher sheet, he

subsidized all this. he's the same men telling us the cure. it doesn't pass the smell test. host: any thoughts? guest: off that point, this gets at the challenge of science to munication in the time of a pandemic. there has been so much disinformation and false information in general. it is hard to reckon with the idea that the vaccines are safe and effective as far as the number of studies around the world, not just looking at company-sponsored studies, which are run with and dependent researchers who run those studies. the vaccines make real difference when you look at who ends up in the hospital versus non-vaccination people.

it's night and day. at the same time, we can say definitively right now that the vaccines are safe and effective. part of this, we would like more out of them. we would like a vaccine that has sterilizing immunity. that is an incredibly high bar. we don't hold vaccines to that. a lot of the messaging in the first year was around until we have a vaccine. the fact that we have a vaccine now and we have seen a radical transformation to the world as it was before, i think that's tough to grapple with, not just for myself. how do you explain this and think about the safety and effectiveness. host: in terms of the development of a vaccine, they go through the same

authorization process. they have to go through trials. they have to be approved for at least emergency use by the fda. guest: absolutely. the one quicker path would be if there was a strain change. this is something that is being worked out in real time between the fda and vaccine developers. what level of relevance does the fda want to see to feel comfortable if you make a tiny tweak to one of these vaccines to tailor it to omicron instead of the original virus. you have to run a massive study with a placebo group. you could look at a correlate of protection as far as different measures where you can get much quicker in terms of just antibody response or immune response.

that is kind of how much data the fda wants to see for vaccines that are already authorized if you want to make a strain update. for other programs, they have to go through the whole process. they have to have tens of thousands of volunteers. host: james is in virginia. good morning. caller: i was curious, the virus that came out of texas. my understanding is it doesn't use the mrna technology. it could be mass produced by a bunch of different countries. it was approved in india. apparently, they could not get funding like pfizer did for the mrna. they had to do research and development on a small amount of money. host: what was the name of the

antivirus? caller: it came out of texas university. it was approved in india. they are starting production on that. it doesn't use the mrna technology. it could be produced anywhere in the world. guest: i'm glad you brought that up. you are referring to baylor university. i talked to them throughout the pandemic in terms of what they've been doing in texas. they've developed their own vaccine. they're working on sars in 2003, trying to develop a vaccine then. that was when my first conversations about those efforts in 2003. they were attempted to get funding 20 years ago. when the pandemic subsided, funding also evaporated.

it's pretty amazing. they stuck to it. they did authorize it under conditional approval. we will see how far it makes it around the world. it's encouraging how they have a massive indian manufacturer behind it. it should have a big impact on low income countries. we don't hear about it much in the u.s. those trial results came out a month or two ago. it's behind those early efforts from pfizer and j&j and astrazeneca. they don't have a big pharma backer to accelerate that timeline or drum up a lot of attention read it. the impact it could have on low income countries is phenomenal. it's a great program to watch. host: where are we in the

development of a vaccine for kids under five? guest: i think it is still -- this is still being figured out. the number of doses and the strength of the doses, the original but during a shot was 100 micrograms. they're looking at trying a small fraction of that for the under five population. those trials need to run out fully. how far do you paste those doses apart if it's going to be two or three? those questions are still being answered. the hope is there will be more answers than questions. i don't know if it will get all the way to authorization in that timeframe. this is an area where the fda wants to be more confident, just

extremely confident in the safety and they won't have to do any tweaking after the fact. host: ron is in pennsylvania. caller: thank you for taking my call. the doctor from baylor, he announced it was the world's vaccine. he said there is no patent on it. he is hoping other manufacturers will talk to them about establishing the infrastructure of regional vaccine manufacturers around the world. prior to baylor, they have gone through clinical trials. they went to south africa and they're trying to do something over there right now.

what an earlier caller said about big pharma getting big money from the government, there was very little accountability. how could there be little cooperation from the richest country in the world with some of these other manufacturers? i think it's important for the u.s. to take the lead on this. thank you. host: how much money will the pharmaceutical companies make off the covid-19 vaccines? guest: the short answer is a lot. form a dharna and pfizer, are company changing products. these are the highest revenue products in pharmaceutical history last year. we are talking in the range of

$25 billion in revenue. it's a staggering sum of money. there is a question if that will turn into a durable business from booster shots. there would be annual booster shots. in moderna's case, can there be a combination vaccine where you go to cvs once a year and get a shot to protect from covid, respiratory virus, the flu. can one-shot protect against multiple viruses? the short answer is tremendous amounts of money. i get why for a lot of people, big pharma making record profits isn't the easiest thing to sit with. that's a fair point. a lot of these smaller companies, if they are publicly

traded, they have similar motivations. smaller on the public market, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. there is a big question. this goes back to operation warp speed, they were taking out which vaccine candidates to fund, to throw hundreds of millions of dollars behind. which company has the capacity to ramp up and produce 4 billion doses. it is tremendous scale up of these new technologies. it has turned into four big pharma for sure. host: good morning. caller: thank you for letting me

on. this long saga about the vaccines and the virus, we were hit with a very infectious virus. everything else i question. we have the patent somewhere years ago for people involved in the story. we have -- we are seeing the origin of the virus. we have problems with our testing. the pcr tests didn't work. we had problems with the diagnosing. we fell down the stairs. that went on forever. we have weird covid protocols. they don't treat you for

pneumonia. they are covid protocols. we have strange pharmaceutical test results where they have to produce the information. they stop at six months and they start giving the vaccine to the placebo groups. they polluted the results. it's stranger and stranger. now we have -- why the high death rate for people who took the vaccine? that's not -- the high death rate is due to motor vehicle accidents. they are supposed to record deaths. what is she talking about? what are they doing?

there is an aggressive push by government and pharmaceuticals for you to get a vaccine. they are so invested in it. all of this is false. it's designed to get you vaccinated. all i say is do one thing and we will see where this goes. host: she mentioned the term vers. what does that mean? is it supposed to do? guest: that's the reporting system. this is monitored by the fda. this is a non-supervised on audited way to report side effects. i could go in, you could go in. you can type in your report. you can enter that. this is been used a lot.

i don't want to say misinformation, a lot of malevolent actors have used this to cherry pick certain events from the database and say look at what this is causing or look at these side effects that are being ignored. they do look at it. they do investigate cases that seem concerning. they go in-depth on them what it is justified. a lot of the entries are unsupervised, unaudited. it's hard to put much trust or value into that database. host: the anti-vaccine movement got a boost in washington. a protest was led by robert f kennedy junior. this is a picture of the national mall without protest

happening on sunday. we are with andrew done it. we will go to mike in pennsylvania. -- new york. you are on the air next. caller: i want to thank you for taking my call. good morning, america. as far as your reporting, you are pro-vaccine. if you look at pfizer, if you do your research on pfizer, it has so many lawsuits they paid out. pfizer is corrupt. i think -- myself, i look at the obituaries. i see people dying of heart attacks.

why don't you report on that? we don't even know what's in this vaccine. you don't even know it's going to happen to people later on in life. why don't you look at that? report on that. we don't know what's going to happen to people 3-4 years from now. you're telling me to go take the vaccine. are you out of your mind? host: to avery in florida. go ahead. caller: can you hear me? you're two prior colors are correct. i'm a physician. i've studied this for the past two years. i have followed people who support early treatment they have totally suppressed any early treatment with any drugs

the been proven to be effective. if you treat early, almost one junta percent. my group has treated 150,000 patients with only for having to go into the hospital. i know some people who have been in the hospital and passed away. they are told to stay home until they turn blue. they go in. these are people who have had a vaccine. even though omicron is less malicious compared to the prior variant. the people who go into the hospital go in and they are given remdesivir. they should not be given that. they are being given that at two weeks into the illness. it only works in the first five days. there has been a suppression in

the media. it's the first time i've ever seen any sort of early treatment until they've come out. they are moneymakers for the same companies. it originally produced ivermectin, which is proven to be effective. host: we will get some response. the fda expands authorization of remdesivir. it had been permitted in hospitals, now it is permitted in outpatient use. guest: on the idea of early treatment, there is something to the idea of the antibody drugs. they work best when it treated

early. i think that is a core take away message. if you are at risk of developing disease, you want to seek out a physician and consult a medical expert. is there something makes sense for you. the antibody drugs are taken on an outpatient basis. the anti-viral remdesivir, they are using that on outpatients. i would just add on to drugs like experimental drugs, they are experimental for over. they are approved for other uses that have nothing to do with covid-19. the majority of trials that had placebo groups and were double

blinded and published in medical journals, they have concluded that ivermectin doesn't work against this virus. host: let's go to mike in new york. caller: i just wanted to find out your opinion. the earlier caller gave a percentage, 99.6% of patients suffer death. is that correct? what is the percentage of those who are affected out of the world population with this virus? guest: i wish i knew. i think that color was referring to 99.6% don't end up hospitalized or die from the virus.

i'm not sure that number is right. the general message there that the vast majority to recover, that is true. we are seeing that with omicron. it appears to be a milder variant. that is a positive even if it is more contagious and causing less severe it disease. that would be a positive. as far as the amount of global -- a lot of modelers and epidemiologists are trying to forecast. is it 30% of the world? is it 50%. it is hard to say. a lot of the world doesn't have reporting capabilities. it's been hard to figure out what the number is. host: let's go to sean in california. go ahead. caller: good morning.

i was listening this morning. i thought i should give a call. the two colors prior. it's starting to make me -- when doctors say i am from florida and a know all these things, i would like to have known what their specialty was. i have been vaccinated. however i look at it, it keeps everyone safe. i've also been boosted. i am still alive. i'm not afflicted by this other stuff. i don't appreciate how people target scientists like dr. fauci. these scientists didn't have to tell us anything. they could've done what they

needed to do. for every one who wants to attention seek and continue to keep these things going on in our country, we will never get back to what we call normal. take the vaccination. it is not going to kill you. i do understand there are some people that have secondary conditions. i have disabled people in my home who have low immune systems. they have taken the vaccination. their doctors have recommended it. they are doing fine. please stop bashing mr. andrew. people that are coming on here, trying to tell us how to live our lives. stay at home, don't infiltrate

our hospitals. thank you very much. have a wonderful day. host: final thoughts? guest: that reminds me of this quote. it's from the infectious disease expert in washington state. he said to me early on, i was asking some production questions and i wanted to know where this is all headed, when can we return to normal? he told me the first axiom is to never underestimate pathogens. that level of humility, somebody who is studying and developing on the leading edge of hiv research for three decades. this is someone with real expertise to fight and infectious disease. i think it's worth keeping that, the level of humility of how we respond to the pandemic and the

fault of our response. everything is not going to go perfectly. there is a lot of work that needs to be done, communicating science to the public. building connective fibers of truth where people can agree on a base set of facts. i would just leave it at that. host: andrew dunn reports on health care issues. he is at business insider. thanks >> c-span's "washington journal." every day we take your calls live on the air on the news of the day and discuss policy issues that impact you. tuesday morning, manhattan institute senior fellow mark meadows discusses his book, the cloud revolution, detailing how technology and automation will

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