[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2022] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] ♪ >> live pictures at the state department this morning awaiting remarks from u.s. secretary of state anthony blinken to address the increased tensions between the u.s. and russia over russia's attempts to invade ukraine. live coverage here on c-span when it starts. right now, your calls from " washington journal." [muffled conversation]

adding affirmative action already is on the agenda. the ap writes that the court will take up lawsuits claiming that in harvard in -- harvard university and the university of north carolina discriminate against asian american applicants. a decision against the schools could mean the end of affirmative action in college admissions. that story an announcement by the court on monday. here is a story about the sats, which was announced yesterday as

part of an evolution in where those standard tests are going. sats going digital. the exam will be online only, shorter as college -- colleges ditch standardized tests. we are joined by eric hoover, senior writer at the chronicle of higher education to talk about the sat change and the significant stories in college admissions. good morning and welcome guest: guest: to washington journal. thank you for having me. host: let us talk about the change in the sat, what prompted the change in these standardized test by the college board? guest: within the nerdy admission circle that i report on, this has been expected for certain time. many other popular standardized tests widely taken all over the world have already gone digital or have a digital option. so, it was a matter of time before it was going to be announced that sat takers would

put down their number two pencils permanently, so this was expected and i think the pandemic case into change on behalf of the college board to go digital in the near future. host: what has been the experience? we had 2020 and 2021 for those students taking those sat exams and other exams, how is that handled during those years of the pandemic? guest: one thing worth noting is that advanced placement exams, which are also run by the college board which runs the sat, went digital during the early months of the pandemic, the spring of 2020. and that was a mixed bag. students took the digital exams at home, because it was the only safe place to take them. that went well for many testtakers but not so well for others. the digital sat will be taken in schools.

otherwise, what we are looking at is the college board, i think the most generous way to look at this is trying to provide more ease-of-use and better options for the digital age. many students even today have lacked access or easy access to in person test a testing centers where you sit down and bubble in your answer on the answer sheets. host: with the change in the s.a.t., students will still have to go to a center, right? this won't be a test you take at home. what about a student who doesn't have a tablet or something that they regularly use for their school work for example? guest: that is a great question, and the answer seems to be that if a student doesn't have his or her own laptop and it does not have access to a device provided by their schools, many students in this country would probably not have access to a laptop if they did not own one already. the college board said yesterday that they would in such cases

provide a device for students to take a test. how exactly that would work and how all those devices would be shipped to all of the high schools in the country remains tbd. host: the you see a time -- do you see a time potentially when the standardized tests for most universities would be phased out? if so, what are the methods by which universities and schools are assessing students for acceptance? guest: two years into the pandemic, we've seen just of -- a range of responses and reactions out west. to california, you have the university of california which has gone test blind, or as many people call it test free. if you send a score the admissions folks in most institutions won't even look at it. california state, the largest in the country, is poised to go.

they will be making those -- harvard university and some other big-name private institutions have more or less put off the decision whether or not to permanently go test optional and stop requiring the act or sat exams. they will be making those decisions in the years to come. the short answer is that many colleges have gone without testing for years if not decades, and the bulk of what they are looking at has always been and remains what courses did you take in high school, what was the rigor of them, and what grades did you get? host: in terms of admissions to universities, the supreme court decision to take up those cases, the headline from one of your pieces, the chronicle of higher education, the supreme court has upheld cases again and again, -- race conscious admissions

again again. will this one be different? harvard university and the university of north carolina. what is at stake for both of those schools are other schools that may be affected by the court decision? guest: there is something at stake here for all colleges and universities. in a nutshell, can admission officers add those to institutions or consider to continue race as one of many factors in their individualized, holistic reviews of applicants? can they even look at that at all? that is the bottom line of what is at stake. whether the practice can continue or whether it would be banned essentially. host: that harvard university case has been around a while. was the court asked to consider that earlier? how far did that get before the court decided to take it up? guest: that went through two rounds.

harvard won in federal court and on appeal and then the supreme court, then that case was appealed to the supreme court. the unc case was filed on the same day as that one and it took a little bit slower routes. as k a little bit slower routes. the plaintiffs asked the supreme court to combine the cases which was their ultimate goal, to have these cases considered at the same time and that is what the court decided this week to actually do. host: eric is a senior writer with the chronicle of higher education. you can follow is reporting online and he is also one twitter. really appreciate the update on both of those issues this morning. host: guest: thank you for adding me. host: our opening question, should colleges drop the s.a.t. requirements for admission?

you can send us comments by text or by tweet. here are the lines. if you are a college student dora high school student or a parent, (202) 748-8000. educators, (202) 748-80010. all others, (202) 748-8002. eric said the word drop your pencils, which those of us who have taken it, standardized test know that phrase. here is the headline from the washington post. drop your pencils, the s.a.t. is going digital. ditching paper test booklets and answer sheets. much shorter, shrinking from three hours to two. those changes and others announced by the college on tuesday will take effect at international test sites next year and domestic sites by spring of 2024.

there are no plans to under the digital test to students at home. the third major overhaul in the past 20 years comes amid mounting challenges, unprecedented in modern times. the tests help uncover and confirm academic potential. critics say that they are biased and pose an unnecessary hurdle in the application process. disruptions to testing schedules and other aspects of education the public health crisis to see was right. the abolishing objective standards he tweets, not hard to understand. the fat's weed out the ones who do homework and make the grade.

dropping sat scores to get into college would continue the buying of a diploma. talk about dumbing down of america. in this one says the usa has a student loan crisis looming, democrats should solve it by giving some tax cuts who pay loans for giving $10,000 is owed that allowing those who make mistakes put a student loan on bankruptcy, the same way that a risky investor can walk away and start over after a mistake and one more from derek who says on the supreme court cases we talked about,'the supreme courts sole purpose is to maintain white supremacy, he said. the question this morning, should the college instructors require the sats? let's hear first from marylin in san francisco. caller: good morning. i appreciate the question today and i just want to say i do think that the sats should go away and all standardized tests

that have been required for college admissions. i think i am a good example of why they are really not held. i went to a good high school and then i was not able to afford the college prep that they required in order to get a good score on either of those tests, so i ended up then going to a pretty good university, i ended up at a very prestigious public university and did very well. host: did you find you met other people who had similar experience to yours in terms of your performance on the sats, or inability? caller: no, because i ended up going to a very prestigious university with very rich kids who had parents who paid for them to get craft and tutors for the sats. it is just a moneymaking scam and to me, it just another

intrusion, unnecessary intrusion of corporate america into what somebody becomes in this country because there is no need to have a corporation called the college board or something, where you have to pay for the test, you have to pay for the prep, you have to pay for books, you have to pay for a tutor. for what? to prove you are smart? like the guy said you just interviewed, the kind of courses you take, which i did take mostly ap courses, and the fact that you do well in them in high school should show that you have the academic skills to do well in college. host: what did you wind up getting a degree in? caller: political science. host: thanks for calling in this morning. (202) 748-8000 alive for students and parents. (202) 748-8001 for educators. for all others, (202) 748-8002. should colleges drop the s.a.t. requirement? that is the opening question for

you this morning. sat math scores mirror and maintain racial inequities, they say. in 1926, they write that the s.a.t. was created to give talented students regardless of income a chance to compete for college admission scholarships. nearly 100 years later it often excludes the low income students it was created to help. although the original exam was primarily aimed at economic diversity, part of the stated modern mission is to help increase racial diversity, two. black and hispanic or latino students routinely score lower on the math section of the s.a.t.. a likely result of generations of exclusionary housing, education and economic i'll see which too often means that rather than reducing existing wage scraps -- gaps, it reinforces them. we investigate sat scores by using the college course publicly available data for high

school graduates with a particular focus on the math section. in this analysis building on their earlier work from 2017, showing that there is a race gap in sat scores, highlighting any of the and hindering upward mobility. also in california on the others' line, let's hear from robert, good morning. caller: yes, the whole point of the sats is to determine readiness for university-level college abilities. i don't know why everything is now based on race. there is nothing racial about the sats. the sats basically determine if you are ready to go to college. there are so many kids who are admitted to college to fail and do not graduate because they are getting in their and they have to be given remedial classes in math and english because they are not prepared, because their haskell diploma is worthless.

so having standards in the s.a.t. is a good thing for all students. host: before we go to ellicott city, we will show you the headlines from the los angeles times on california. the cal state is poised to drop sat admission requirements as a chance to support scrapping the tests. california state university. largest university system in the nation is poised to drop the sat and act as an admission requirement, a move that would follow the university of california elimination of the exams and further shake of the standardized testing landscape as hundreds of campuses across the nation shift away from assessments. ellicott city, maryland, good morning. caller: sure. i just want to say i agree with getting rid of the sat test. i am an academic and i teach in the social sciences. i think students come to the university who have scored high

and what it does is it gives them an unfair advantage to get all the scholarships and all the resources, but then their heart is not in it or they prepped for the test, but not for the academic life that college will require and then they flunk out. and the other thing, i have seen students who didn't do well on the s.a.t. or could not take it or whatever, but they come in with a certain level of grid and they turn out to be the star student. i just really think the test should be done away with. host: the previous caller mentioned remedial courses that students are often required to take in universities and colleges. do you find that to be the case? caller: absolutely. i agree with the previous caller.

this is about someone making money off of people's aspirations. just get rid of the test. thank you for taking my call. host: this is from jason riley, opinion piece in the wall street journal this morning. a chance to remove race from college admissions, they headlined the opinion piece. he writes that talking about the supreme court cases, the plaintiffs in the cases against harvard and unc are hoping that the supreme court will finally stop kicking the can on racial preferences which is essentially what it has been doing since the 1978 decision when the work had numerical quotas but said that race would be one of several factors in college admissions. nevertheless, it has become a major factor even while school admissions officers pretend otherwise, and they will continue down this road into the court decides that the constitution and the civil rights act of 1964 mean what they say: that discrimination on

the basis of race is illegal. that is the opinion of jason riley, a wall street journal this morning. the line for educators, -- for students and parents is (202) 748-8000. for educators, (202) 748-8001. for all others, (202) 748-8002. here is how those tests are used according to the associated press. the research across the country about 80% of bachelor degree-operating institutions do not require test scores. nearly 1400 of those, they say, of those extending that policy through fall of 2023 admission cycles, a lot a lot of that do of course to some of the change in the covid-19 pandemic. the numbers here in terms of who took the test, the class of 2020, 2.2 million students took the test. before that, 2021, 1.5 million

students. that would have been in the spring of 2020 and that last group, the class of 2020. sat scores by race, and this is a combination of the math and the expanded writing and verbal, so the two sections. 1114 average for white students ,933 for black. this, 978. asian, 1223. robert, go ahead. caller: i would like to give my little take on this s.a.t. because when i graduated from high school in d.c. in '83 and i went to a college in another state, the s.a.t. is taken on the east coast and the act is taken on the west coast.

i had already been accepted, but what i found out, these are placement exams. so they know exactly where to place you when you enter into the college. i had already been accepted into the college, but they said he took the sat, but we don't know where to place him. so it is not exactly an entrance exam, it is a placement exam. at the time, they said we don't know where to place you because the next chance is in august. the next test is in october. i am sitting here in new mexico tried to find a place to live and i have got to go to school because i am registered and they said we will let you know. you have got to take the act because we don't know exactly where to place you. so is not exactly an entrance exam.

i had already been accepted by three or four different colleges already. by that time, they said we don't know where to place you. and so it is not an entrance exam, but a placement exam. host: right. caller: i could've taken a maybe 300 level course. host: where did you wind up going to school eventually? caller: university of new mexico albuquerque. host: and were you happy with your choice? caller: very much so. but at that time, like you said, it was not just an inconvenience for me, but inconvenient for the school. matter of fact, i did take the sat in the wintertime. it was by the time the summer time came that they said you were accepted, but they never

said anything about the act. so they didn't know exactly where to place me, so they had to put me at the bottom of the ladder. host: so the bottom line of the question, do you think that schools should drop the s.a.t. as a requirement? caller: i don't know about entrance, but as far as placement goes. they won't know what your qualifications are. they are going to review that. it is kind of a tough call. as long as you have graduated, that is your entrance, your college. a lot of students, they come out at different levels. host: welcoming your calls on our morning questions. should the s.a.t. be dropped as an entrance for ironman? (202) 748-8000 -- entrance

requirement? (202) 748-8000 for students, (202) 748-8001 for educators, and for all others, (202) 748-8002. also this morning, boris johnson is in the house of commons. he is facing a lot of pressure from the opposing party and others on parties regularly held during covid at number 10 downing street. here is a live look on the floor of the house of commons. >> the idea of a new national recovery using fines paid by the water companies so we can clean the other rivers up properly once and for all. >> mr. speaker, i had a memorable swing myself at 5:00 in the morning. it tasted like nectar. i understand the problems he raises, it is very important that our beautiful rivers should be clean as well and we will be

visiting the area with or without and i know that we are urging the welsh government. host: just to remind you, that is going on live now as we do every wednesday that they are in the house of commons, the prime minister's questions on c-span2. you can all of -- also follow on the c-span now app and we will be air the prime minister's questions at 9:00 eastern here on c-span more of your calls and comment on our opening question, should the s.a.t. be dropped as a college admission airmen? this is becky usa today. s.a.t. is -- this is back to usa today. admissions exams will be online only and shorter. put down your pencils and grab your laptops, the s.a.t., one of the nations most commonly used entrance exams is going digital.

the college board, the organization that administers the s.a.t., psat and other standardized test announced the change tuesday. the shift to online exams won't happen until 2024 for american students. international students will start testing virtually in 2023. they write that for decades, the s.a.t. or its competitor, the act, was required to apply to traditional colleges. the test ubiquity has faded in recent years as more colleges have ditched the exams as a prerequisite admissions. the test-optional movement started before the pandemic but coronavirus shutdowns spurred even more universities to pause or drop testing requirements. according to the national center for fair and open testing, a nonprofit critical of the s.a.t., 80% of roughly 2304-year colleges are not requiring the exam for haskell students. tennessee, let's hear from an educator on the educators line

wayne, good morning. caller: my name is wayne. we home-educated four children and they took tests to go into college and i think test are in equalizer because if rich people can prep their children to take the test, they have enough money to overcome financial obstacles and get more children into college. and there is no way that their money is going to be an impediment to having more rich children in college than poor children. we were very fortunate, all our children got scholarships in undergraduate degrees for all four of them were very inexpensive. host: how much was the sat score a factor in each of your children's'ability to land a scholarship? caller: well, universities use a

lot of different things, but yes, they did take the s.a.t.-act which they had done a lot better than i did when i took it. very good. they went to a local university that really wanted students that were in a self-directed school system, where their own initiative, they learned early that they have work to get down and it is up to them to do it without a teacher sitting right over them two nurses that got to bsn and one that got an advanced degree. they are all very successful now. but it was a big factor. and i think it should remain a factor.

i think that the advantages that people with money have, no matter what color you are not going to go away because of standard testing. i think he argument that standardized testing is a sub argument of " are there any standards today?" not only in college admissions, but we have behavior standards? do we have the standards that are character standards? if you want to be judged by character, you have to have standards in order to judge that. we don't want to do that anymore. host: would you be in favor of, and some nations have this, a national standard? nations like japan, south korea and others have a national standard in terms of the entrances into higher education. with you be in favor of a national standard that has to apply to students, regardless of what high school they come from? caller: well, from a competitive

standpoint, china, in order to get any advanced education at all, you have to go through rigorous testing. it doesn't matter if you are rich or poor. the parents have the burden of educating their children, making sure that the standards that are set by the government are met by the children. the people that are successful in education today, the children that are successful have parents that are interested in their education and that interest does not solely come from teachers. they read to their children when they are small. library books, math. they really have a handle on reading before they get to school. and that starts very young. if parents aren't involved, all children fail. host: john, next up, on the

parent line. westminster, maryland, good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. my comment is the sat score, all the standardized tests should be dropped because they don't really measure how well you are succeeding, they only measure how well you can take the sat or the act. so you have to take prep courses, you have to study, you have to buy materials, and the course itself, you have to pay for. you really are studying to take the test. and the test is not a measure of academic success, it is just a measure of how well you can take a standardized test. i remember going through this myself in the 2000's. the proctor is given the exam

and you have this clock right in front of you the whole time keeping you under rusher here. i could take it well enough to get into college but i felt like many other students color did not have the tools to prepare and succeed. host: you point out the preparation needed if you undertake repairing for the test, studying just for the test, what in your mind would be other methods by which universities, colleges should assess a student's potential for success at that university? caller: if you are able to graduate high school. if you have a problem with heisel standards across the country, maybe i would support the idea of a national standard. as you can tell by my accent, i am from the caribbean. everybody to graduate high

school take a national test. host: where in the caribbean are you from? caller: i am from haiti. in 11th and 12th grade, both of those grades, you have to take a national exam administered by a national proctor. the universities know if you graduate high school, then you're are ready for college. but the point is everybody has the same chance. everybody doesn't have to spend money. there is not a barrier to advancement in terms of canonic's. everybody goes to school, you study. here in america, everybody studies, make the standards very rare. it doesn't mean i have to spend money. it doesn't have out -- any bearing on how much i had my bank account. host: we are going to hear from

another parent. emily calling from virginia, go ahead. caller: i heard the end of the previous caller and i completely agree. i am in loudoun county and a lot of people here spend hundreds of dollars per hour for test prep, take the test multiple times, and i don't see how that is a fair playing field. host: to take a test, a tutorial was hundreds of dollars brower for the act or the sat. caller: is not uncommon here for people to pay -- we do more typically sat here, which some people, depending on schools, do take the sat. i mean, the act. but it is not uncommon here for people to spend hundreds of dollars per hour several sessions to prepare for the

test. test points go up a lot by having these tutors that know how to teach kids how to play the game. host: do you know parents would say i would love to do that, but i can't afford it? caller: of course. even here, you have parents who are doing that. originally i thought maybe they could have it by school or by region, i'm sure we are looking at the schools, we don't have a lot of free and reduced lunch, but even very wealthy schools, you still have a percentage of population who are still on free and reduced lunch, who are not in a position to pay that kind of money. to answer the question, i do think having it as an option where people who are doing really well and want to include

that as an option, i think that is fine. but i think making the requirement, i don't see that it is a fair metric to measure, you know, whatever they are trying to measure with it because so many people are going about it so differently. host: thanks for calling, emily. reaction on social media, a student who would object to it being dropped. the sat standard, that is. sue from new jersey said sat scores should not be the ultimate standard measure a capacity to learn. too much pressure on test-takers. schools need to look at the whole picture, not one little piece of it. the purpose of education is to educate, not just take money.

and aptitude testing should remain as a way to assess a person's strength and weaknesses read it is important to educators and employers in placing someone effectively. this is an opinion piece from politico magazine. the headline, why colleges should ditch the sat permanently. she writes that abolishing sats for college admissions expand the applicant pipeline, brings more racial, ethnic and economic diversity to campuses, and raises the aspirations of students residing on the tough side of american inequality. institutions typically claim in their mission statements to be educating future citizens leaders who contribute to society, but standardized tests are not good indicators of such behavior. she writes that they reaffirm existing wealth and structural advantages. schools should be encouraging rather than excluding students

who face barriers. on our educators line, kevin is in massachusetts. go ahead. caller: thank you very much for letting me on the program. first of all, i think from the arguments that you have made previously, the argument is very good against this particular test. i also would put in a plug for students that most students feel that they are over-tested proficiency tests that cover the same types of things. and colleges can have access to those instant wiring yet another test. but i think most of all because i am an ap teacher, there is a big difference in ap tests and sat tests. sat tests measure kids who are

bright, but don't necessarily have a good work ethic. they do well and the college knows that they have both the work ethic and the intelligence, and so that is why i would favor these types of tests. i know several colleges like burton have abolished it. host: which advanced placement du teach? caller: i taught four ap courses. they are all social studies ap courses like geography, history, those types of courses. host: in general, have you had feedback from your students that do go on to college that that course and that exam was held preparing them for college? caller: yes, the ap is pretty standard. i haven't found too many people who objected because they are basically college courses, and

the smartest kids in the world can't pass the ap test unless they study. the kids who have done well on the sat test usually do pretty well. host: thanks for your input. bob is up next in irvine, california. caller: thank you. this is just another example of the dumbing down of america. ok? we want to go digital, why? because it is easier to change the scores and cheat on the test . but if you have an actual, physical paper ballot -- test sheet, you have to actually go by that. the chinese and the russians, they are laughing at americans. i know for a fact that our friends in south korea and japan, it is so much tougher to take those tests and the quality of what they are doing is higher than what we are. we are just continuing dumbing it down.

why? we are going to be taken over by marxist communists, that is all that is if you want to be in america, you have got to toughen up to your test. study, move ahead. host: bob in california talked about the online test, implying it may be easier to cheat. there is a piece in the washington post that says -- that talks about this. they write about the computer-based testing that will enable the college board to beef up security. officials said there will be less -- less risk of stolen test booklets and much more variation in questions for individual students. testing will continue to be proctored at secure sites, but digital sat is not envisioned as an at-home test. in seneca, south carolina, our

student line, no ahead. caller: thanks for having me. i think that this is kind of like a ninja loan for an education. we are no longer checking the credentials of anyone who wants to get an education. i think that the results with federally-backed loans, there could be a lot more people taking out loans. with the training and practice responsibilities, i heard some people were saying that that is generally on the parents and i believe that more responsibility needs to be put on public schools to be training students for the sat and doing more practice sat exams. and you know, also with the digitalization of the test, i think that this poses as an

opportunity to actually reduce the amount of standardized tests that the students are having to take. host: what has been your experience with the sat or standardized tests in terms of college admissions? are you a student now in high school, or college? caller: i currently attend clemson university. i had to take my entrance -- so, i took my sat and submitted all that and i took mine on paper, took the long test of the traditional way, submitted all that information. then i also had to take online exams that were proctored by a live person who is actively watching. i don't think there's going to be a huge risk of cheating here. host: how big a factor do you think your sat score was in getting you admitted to clemson? caller: i don't think it was the most significant factor. i think they might have been looking at grades more, but i do

think that it played a major role in the decision and how they choose who will succeed in their programs. host: appreciate your call. mary, new york, next up. caller: i am calling because i don't think the sat should be eliminated, mainly for two reasons. i am aware that wealthier families have their kids tutored, but i think the admissions officers are pretty sophisticated. they have been doing it for a while. when your kid applies, most of them are looking for scholarships. the admissions offices know the family income. if someone gets a really high score from some poor place the same as someone near d.c., the admissions officers will understand that the kid from the

midwest is just as smart as the kid from maryland or wherever. and i also think that -- i'm not quite sure how to explain my point, but for instance, my father did not take the sats, and he is a very bright man, but he never got to know how bright he was because he never got to take the test. he went through state school, whereas i got to take the sat and the achievement test and i went to harvard and graduated from there. and i got to go because of my sats. a bunch of people get straight a's. i think there needs to be a further process that will help admissions offices distinguish who is really good. host: appreciate the call. this piece, a professor of english at city college of

chicago. he is in favor -- against getting rid of the sat. the headline, keep the sat and the act. he writes that such totally irrational or irresponsible pushes in the name of helping minority students are leaving americans to unprepared for college, hindering minority students finishing education, sending the wrong message about what american institutions are learning value, destroying fun of the belief that hard work and personal accountability and further putting american national and international interest at risk. you can find that at inside higher ed. whether they should drop the sat as an admissions were armored? the lines are for students and parents. (202) 748-8000. for educators, (202) 748-8001. and for all others, (202) 748-8002.

donald is in washington. parent line, go-ahead. caller: good morning everyone out in america. i would probably definitely agree with a few of them, what sounded like responsible parents. if we start knocking off tests or requirements, i think we all know where that goes. i personally watched that, they started doing that in high schools where kids, if they don't get left behind, that is exactly what happens, they get left hind because they are not hired to do anything. their parents are not required to be parents. so i think it falls back on the parents. i'm tired of hearing about race. i'm tired of hearing about all that. the only thing that i think it would allow is cheating and

people that have lots and lots of cash to buy their kids' ways in. everyone doesn't remember about a year and a half ago, the hollywood elite in berkeley and whatnot got caught paying for their kids that were out screwing around, not doing their stuff? host: i don't know if you heard the parent from virginia, loudoun county public schools, talking about the cost of the preparation, hundreds of dollars per hour for a tutor. how do we make those courses more affordable, more accessible to people who don't have that kind of money to get their kids prepped for those exams? caller: i think that all falls back with that word, preparation. you have to prepare. you can't just expect to pay your rent on rent day instead of working. you have to get ready for school.

you can't just say billy had this that or the other, susie had this that or the other that other kids didn't have. we've just got to cut all stuff across the board. it is not going to turn out well. i don't know if you guys are paying attention to a lot of the stuff coming out of the colleges right now, you can be book smart, that ain't going to get you everywhere in the world. that will not keep food on your plate. i just think it comes back to the parents, and i'm just so sick and tired of hearing about certain different things, especially race, because we are all on an equal playing field here unless you are stacked with cash. host: we have been talking about the change in the sat and whether colleges and universities should drop the ironman. we also talked about the two supreme court cases that will come up in the next term for the court on college admissions standards.

here is another issue on college campuses are written about this morning in the washington times. college students grow uneasy about free speech. u.s. college students place a higher value on first amendment principles but feel increasingly uneasy for different ideological reasons about free speech on campus according to a survey released tuesday. more than half of students responded 59% of the poll that's a college campuses should let them be exposed to all types of speech even if they find it offensive or biased. republicans, 71%. white, 65% were more likely to agree with that statement then independenta, democrats, black and hispanic students who said they feel unsafe under the first amendment. the director of learning and impact at the nonprofit said the paul reflects a trend since 2016 of college students feeling insecure about campus free

speech for racial and political reasons. back to calls. otis is in detroit. good morning. caller: good morning. yes, i am here in detroit, and what i want to say as a parent that even myself who has four, almost five college degrees as a senior citizen now, that the act-sat really didn't reflect on my ability. and my children, i was able to send them to universities, kid colleges and take the prep. it was hundreds of dollars my wife and i had to spend to prepare them.

their kids were taking the sat in the ninth grade. the higher the test score as you go on, the higher score they keep. in our neighborhood, kids who couldn't afford an educator or handicap. some families couldn't even raise money to even pay for these. host: how soon did you have those kids taking the act test, otis? caller: in the ninth grade. we had some kids going to the university of michigan and other students on full ride scholarships they were good students in classes, but the act was sending them to some state

schools. another thing, stop comparing us to china and japan because that education system is a whole lot different and they don't have this multiracial, all the divided ethnic people in their country. they focus on the chinese and the japanese. we are not, and the blacks especially have disadvantages since the war two. no education, the baby boom, didn't understand from the parents as first generation. and generation x, the cost of education got sky high. i was blessed to have all three of my children on full ride scholarships just because my wife and i hired this, and we are black. it cost a lot of money, we had to stay in a little small house that we've still got 46 years later to spend our money on

them, education and other things instead of buying big homes and new cars, but we sent them to kitty college -- kidde college every summer. marilyn, monica. caller: good morning. i am against the sats. i took them myself, i don't think i had a fair shot with my parents didn't know anything about the sat prep. i did have access to test free and reduced lunch, so that is how i was able to take it. i don't even know what my scores were, to be honest, because i kind of had no guidance going into college. i was able to go to college later as an adult on my own and i never had to take the sat. i did totally fine. i don't think it had any bearing

on my performance in school. and i also wanted to touch on one of the callers who said that admissions boards are likely looking at income and correlating sat scores to potential incomes of if admissions boards were not able to notice a doctored photo of a different head on a different body for a rower or a tennis player, are they looking at each person's income? no. that is a totally different process. that is not something that is at the top of your education -- application saying what your income is and what you're able to afford in terms of whether or not you should have the merit to be accepted. host: monica, thanks for the call this morning. a comment on twitter, like so many other institutions in this country, admissions tests are simply another mechanism for corporations to extract profits in order to allow americans to move onto a desired phase of life. drop it. timothy is an educator in

arlington, virginia. caller: good morning. i say yes and no. we don't really have to get rid of the sats. we have rigorous curriculums. if they don't want to take the sat, we can track students into other curriculums such as the ib program, which is like a global type of form of education that indicates that students would have to basically take different subject matters that will rate them on a global level and compare them to other students around the world.

the international bark laureate -- baccelaureate program. we can start tracking them by other programs when they are very young. you have different sectors in society in which students are tracked at a very young age. as young as four or five years old, they start tracking students in curriculum programs. host: you may have put your finger on something: how do we do a better job of that, of identifying across all levels and types and kids of different income levels, those kids who are showing potential and track those kids in addition to other kids, to boosting their ability?