and if mine are not less, i want them less of quick. >> "presidential recordings," find it on the c-span now mobile app, or wherever you get your podcasts. gun issues and gun policy and the trends in crime statistics is jim kessler. you are a staffer at the time. in 1994 on the house committee that worked on the 1994 assault weapon band that was signed into law by then president clinton. can you take us back to that year and what led to that

creation of that law? guest: i was chuck schumer's legislative director at the time and he was the author of the assault weapon ban and if you looked at gun crime in the 1970's and 80's, the crimes were used with very cheap guns. some of the original laws about what types of guns needed to be bad if you could band them, -- band --banned if you could ban them -- we moved to these military stout weapons and that -- styled weapons and that was why we moved to this ban. i can tell you up to the very point that when the speaker bank

that gavel down, -- banged the gavel down, we did not know if we had the votes to pass. host: what is a assault weapon? guest: it was coined by the gun lobby as a marketing ploy back in the 80's but what we did was, we said, what are the characteristics of the gun that basically -- you would imagine it more in a military setting fan in a -- band in --than in a self-defense setting. do you shoot it from a hit -- the hip? assault weapons are sock that

shot from the hip. do they have pistol grips? do they have a threaded barrel so you could hold onto the barrel as you fire the weapon in the barrel does not heat up? did it have a bayonet mounts? things like that that cross the line from civilian used to military use. host: here is what that brought -- assault rifle been covered. it focused on models of ar 15's and ak-47s. advanced certain military features and set a high limit on magazines and it was in effect . it expired in 2004. why was there an expiration?

guest: no one wanted to have an x -- expiration and the number is how do you get to 50% plus one? as the bill went on, what compromises could you make in order to get to that threshold? leading up to that boat, we never had -- vote, we never had be sufficient votes to pass it until the very day. one of the compromises was that it will sunset in 10 years. we thought, it will be so popular, no one would repeal it. we went wrong. -- were wrong. host: i want to open up the phones.

(202) 748-8001, for republicans. (202) 748-8000. gym cluster, we will take you back to the fort -- floor -- floor debate. i want to get your reaction. >> we have more heard factually inaccurate words in the last four minutes then we have in a long time. i submit for the record a statement put out on august 10. i submit -- you may laugh but

you know why you are laughing and that is because every time this bill is improved, you find another objection. remember the racial justice act? we heard that they want for -- the bill except for the racist -- rasul justice act -- racial justice act. there is now $8.4 billion for funding in prison. they are still not for it. they want the truth in sentencing and they got truth in senate seat and -- sentencing and they still oppose the rule. they have one excuse after another. the time has come for truth in

voting. if you want to do what our constituents are pleading with us to do, which is make the streets safe. tough laws on punishment. smart loss on prevention, -- loss --laws or prevention, you will vote on this rule. host: jim kessler, former policy director, what did you hear with those comments? guest: the assault rifle band was a part of the crime you -- bill. a lot of painstaking compromise. it passed by a margin of 235-

195. it got republican support by a three to one margin, they voted against it. by 83 to one margin -- by a 3-1 margin, democrats voted for it. it will be emblematic of congress in the future because it is a very emotional issue. very easily -- easy to play politics with the crime issue. on the local level, if you look at mayors and governors, the crime debates there are a lot more measured. as you get it closer and further away to congress, a lot of demagoguery going on. the nra was a foe of that bill

and they controlled a lot of members of congress. i think they still control a lot of members be -- but it was an epic battle and we did not know we had it until the very end. host: chuck schumer said that this -- the streets would be safer with that law. a report from northwestern university in 2004, said that the assault on -- the weapon ban works. did you think it worked? guest: the 1993 ready law, that was a separate law that required background checks for firearm purchases. that had a larger impact in

america then the assault weapons ban. i think the assaults -- assault weapons ban improved balance on the streets not as much as the brady law. host: in lower maryland -- laurel, maryland. caller: i was a former police officer. i locked up a lot of offenders. i believe all good law-abiding citizen should be carrying weapons if they choose, as long as they make the background checks and get the proper training. i think the bottom line is this. assault weapons are not the problem. -- or not, the problem lies with the revolving -- it should come

back with mandatory minimums on crimes that are committed with firearms. that is the only way where he will deter people -- or criminals, is to lock them up. i believe there is no other way. host: jim kessler. guest: i want to touch on one part of the comment. he says he is a staunch supporter of the second amendment. all law abiding citizen should exercise -- exercise that right. the key word is law. -- abiding citizens. there are a bunch of ways to buy a gun legally and bypass that

check so that is one of the ways to reduce some of the violent crime, is to set off those loopholes in which a fire -- firearm goes from being a legal object to an illegal object. host: two norman, in one rope township -- munroe township. democrat line. caller: why do we have one kit -- killings in -- more killings in one week then we have an -- in other countries in the world. i was told that the second amendment, which is to protect citizens from a government, that we would -- that was -- we would

be afraid the government was corrupt. if it takes on against the government, that is treason. it did not make sense. the only way we will stop it is to get rid of all the guns that have in england and australia and then that will get rid of it. all these laws do not mean anything. background checks and all that. host: jim kessler -- jim kessler with the third way. what has your organization brought -- with the second amendment? guest: we are a centerleft organization and we look for solutions.

whether you like the second amendment or not, we are stuck with it. it exists and we have to have laws and keep people safe around that amendments. there isn't going to be a repeal of the second amendment, not in my lifetime. on guns, we have a murder problem in violent crime problem because we have a gun problem. i want to throughout some statistics that anyone can look up. there is a huge proliferation of people buying guns that we have never seen before. in 2005, the americans bought 8 million firearms in those years. in 2019 and 2020, and 2021,

americans. almost 40 million firearms in each of those years. we are seeing a loosening of gun laws such that people can quote unquote defend themselves with stand loss in ways that they could never defend themselves before using a firearm. we are heading towards more incidents of gun violence in my view because of the huge increase in purchasing guns and the loosening of loss, not just to -- loss --laws, not just to purchase them but how they can be used. host: the sandy hook lawsuit, remington has agreed to pay 70 million dollars to victims --

$73 million to victim's families. the 73 million dollars came from a current -- insurance companies. caller: i was -- guest: i was pleased and surprised by that decision. there was a law that congress passed in 2005. it was the plaa, protection of lawful commerce act. i am getting the name wrong. it passed in 2005 that prevented any lawsuit on the gun industry to proceed. it was one of the most

reprehensible loss that congress had passed in my lifetime. it was seen that it would be almost impossible to sue a gun manufacturer. this may have turned that on its head. too early to tell. i think one of the comments on twitter says it was the insurance companies that did it. that gives me some pause on it. i want to look at that more carefully but if you had a gun industry that felt in any way culpable on what was happening with the use of their product, you will see changes in that product that will be beneficial for the country. host: i want to point out from the foxbusiness report, and they write that the lawsuit should have been dismissed. the federal law that gives brought immunity to the gun industry but under law,

remington could be sued under state law. the supreme court declined that case -- the case. guest: that would be the way to do it. the reason why the law was passed to protect the gun industry is because plaintiff started to make the same case against gun manufacturers that people were making against the tobacco industry and those lawsuits against the tobacco industry change the way cigarettes were sold and marketed in the gun industry was worried that these lawsuits were going to radically change the way guns will be manufacturers and -- manufactured and marketed and sold as well. congress cut the legs out of these lawsuits. host: let's go to darlene in las vegas. caller: hope you are both well.

there are almost 40,000 gun laws in the united states and no one seems to give a darn about enforcing them. they want to come up with new policies when they cannot be bothered to deal with loss on the books. --laws on the books. we don't get to sue car manufacturers because people want to get drunk. it is absolutely ridiculous. let's build faster and quicker car so we can race down the road and see how many people we can hit. i gun is no -- a gun is no

threat itself. it is about the user. i have never had to hurt anyone in my life. guest: let me talk about the 40,000 gun laws. most of those laws are laws to make it easier to buy and sell and transfer weapons and to use a gun so most of those lost our loss --laws aren't enforcement loss --laws. you can sue the gun cart -- car industry and that's why we have safety in cars. and -- let's talk about how we should be able to sue the gun industry. the caller that we talked to has owned guns for 32 years.

she is a responsible gun owner. there are gun stores that are the source of thousands and thousands of guns that end up being used in crimes. maybe that is happenstance. people who go into the stores, they are near high crime areas and that is what happening -- is happening or maybe they are selling lots of firearms to people who they know they are traffic them -- trafficking been. --them. if gun manufacturers, the way you -- we make drug manufacturers aware of what is happening with the legal problem of opioids and how doctors are distributing them, if they were made responsible, legally, for knowing which distributors and which gun stores whether source

of the lion share of the guns that are being trafficked, they would alter their procedures. they will feel -- would feel they would have to alter procedures to crack down on it and not send guns to them but they don't, because there is no culpability and accountability and responsibility anywhere in the chain of the legal gun market. host: let's break in another topic here. the report is the crime of the crime narrative and some of the details of that report is that contrary to the medium -- media narrative, overall crime rate decrease in 2020 compared to 2019. there appears to be no difference in crime trends between republican and democrat let states and no change between

those with police reform and those that don't. we talked about violent crime across the country. what is your third way report ascribed that rise to and help concerned -- how concerned should we be about it? guest: we don't know all the 2021 numbers. those numbers come in at a -- late. the murder numbers are reliable. we are seeing spiking in murder. it is concerning. other crimes, clark that -- car theft, they don't seem to be going up. we will know more about that in the months ahead. here is another statistic.

the homicide rate is 40% higher in states that voted for donald trump then states that voted for joe biden and the homicide rates in many republican states have been habitually higher than in democratic state so there is a narrative that cities like new york and los angeles and san francisco and chicago and are watching crime. in the case of chicago, it is true. the crime rates and the murder rates are far less then other parts of the country. the point of our report is that not that we shouldn't be concerned about crime. there is a narrative that is happening in certain places because of certain liberal policies and that is not the case if you look out there. you look at a place like jacksonville, florida,

republican mayor and republican governor. voted for republican in the last several presidential election. that has a higher murder rate than new york city and los angeles and other cities in america. i feel that the crime meme in the stores that we are seeing -- and the stories that we are seeing our focus in particular places and have a political angle to them that is designed to benefit one party, not to enlighten policy makers. host: caller in colorado. republican line. caller: i would like to talk about the assault rifle definition first and i have something to read for you. this is a definition by the u.s.

army -- a selective fire chambered first -- an assault rifle -- they are capable of automatic fire. that is november 14, 2018. i am just going to read this thing that i have pasted on the wall because i am a gun on it that reminds me of something. it says it was in a gun or a bomb or a machete. it was a -- in two or three minutes, a mode down people. --mowed down people. do you understand now? it is not the weapon, it is the ideology. host: ok. any comment?

guest: i don't think anyone is saying we should not rent out drugs and cars. -- truck's and cars. we have a entire system to put out safety measures. you need a driver's license and you need to have the car registered. i not saying meets -- every gun needs a license and registration let's realize that most of the world is -- most of america is under pretty common sense regulations and didn't guns get a radical exception. -- and guns get a radical exception. it is the guns.

i am not a ban all guns and repealed the second amendment person. -- repeal the second amendment person. i do have eyes. i can see in front of me. we have a massive gun prime -- crime problem in the united states that is unique to the united states and to say that there is nothing we can do on the gun front and on regulations on it and on some loss --laws. i think it is rigid thinking. host: i have a question from mark on twitter. " what is the percentage of violent crime done on a legally purchased weapon? " guest: the answer isn't quite as simple as the question. every gun begins as a legal

object and distributed to a gun store legally. from that gun store, it is generally sold legally, through a background check, etc.. most of those guns stay legal but some drift into the black market. let me give you an example. these statistics are out of date but it is from a report i did years ago. if you look at the guns that were used in crime in new york city, 90% of the guns used in those crimes were bought from another state. bringing guns from state lines is illegal. what that means is 90% of the guns used in crime in new york cd -- city were somehow trafficked to the city. most of them came from five states.

there is an iron pipeline where people buy guns in states where the guns are more lacks -- lax. they drive them to places to new york or boston and from chicago, they come from indiana and mississippi. those guns get sold for cash or for drugs. that illegal market is really one of the places where you would want to do crackdowns. we don't have a gun trafficking statute in the united states. gun trafficking is a term of art, not law. there is no federal gun trafficking statute so it is almost impossible to go after those people, buying a hundred

guns in georgia, selling them in new york city, on the streets. host: call from georgia next. we have maria in i went to -- atlanta. democrat line. caller: he says the second amendment -- amendment is going oh -- anywhere, and that is the problem. americans have a love for guns. until you get rid of guns, you will be talking about this for many years because there's nothing anyone can do until you get rid of guns. these families will be crying because america has a love for guns. we can arthur -- argue. until you get rid of guns. host: mike in ohio.

independent line. caller: i have two comments, first of all about the second american -- amendment, i believe our forefathers were well-intentioned but the last word -- all of our rights happen infringement, including the first amendment. the nra was founded in 1871 by general burnside. he was a union general in the senate will -- civil war. he started the nra as a organization about the safety and the scientific use of a firearm. it was not about gun rights. it was about gun safety. i cannot believe -- i believe

the civil war is proof positive that you can't really have an armed insurrection because -- they went through georgia like a knife through butter. -- the best way to not be attacked by your government is to elect" the pact between the a --" the pact between the nra --" the pact betweenmatter. " your response. guest: the nra was a different group many years ago. there was a coup within the nra

in the 90 -- 90 -- 1970's and be came radicalized and others splintered groups grew out of it. to compete for membership, which is what the nra needs, it has become a radical organization even from the point where it was too far gone. it is a powerful organization. i have fought the nra for 30 years. they mostly win. they are -- they have a lot of legislators in their pocket. nearly all of them are republican. they used to play in both

parties in the past. they have abandoned democrats. i think they are part of the toxicity that is in washington dc. host: let me ask you about a story in the new york post. high capacity magazine a crazed gunman used killed a rookie nypd cop. ed -- it was a weapon that might have been found in a war-torn afghanistan. the so-called drum magazine allows the block to hold an additional 40 rounds to the firearm's usual 10. would that have been illegal under the assault rifles ban=? n? guest: most likely.

host: jim in pennsylvania. republican line. caller: good morning. first of all, the right to self-defense is not a rights granted by -- right granted by government. it is one of the unalienable rights granted to us by the constitution. our society is changing very rapidly. the facial recognition ai pretty soon, you won't be able to do anything without being surveilled. you know? you see through the pandemic, how to radical governments -- karen nicole -- tyrannical

governments, or places you can't have a gun, how to ran nicole -- how tyrannical those governments became. guest: that was the first time i heard australia and new zealand you because -- because -- be called tyrannical. stand your ground loss --laws -- you can be the -- take offense and it is a license for white people who are afraid up like

people to shoot them. that is what we have seen in the last few years throughout the country finally coming to light. within our second amendment rights to firearms, i hope we can add responsibility to it where this situation gets worse. host: jim kessler, executive vice>> "washington journal" continues. host: what does is rafael mangual best with this is rafael mangual -- with us is mark the almond wall -- rafael mangual. who hurts it the most. we are spending the morning here talking about these related issues and i appreciate you coming on. get your take on the crime