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democracy. >> up next from rutgers university, we are joined by a professor who is the faculty director for the university center for women and work. that is what we are going to talk about, women and work and the effect of the pandemic. thanks for being here, professor rogers. professor rogers: thank you, bill. nice to be here. bail: what has been the effect on women in the workforce the past two years? professor rogers: we are hearing about more women than men hit harder and early on by work closures, they worked more in sectors that had shutdowns. childcare centers closed, schools closed, the bulk of supervising kids at home fell on

the shoulders of women. so we did see more women leaving the workforce than men, or cutting back on their hours to take care of this additional responsibility of supervising kids and taking care of children. and as the recovery has progressed, we have seen women be slower to come back to the workforce, especially women of color. we see higher unemployment rates for black women and latina women. disruptions to childcare have continued as well. we even see a difference in income groups. work that my center is doing at rutgers is showing that these childcare disruptions during the pandemic hit lower-income households especially hard. almost a quarter of households

in lower-income brackets have somebody lose their job, or they lost income because of childcare disruptions, while wealthier household were able to shoulder the disruptions and get by without losing their jobs. bill: what has been the effect of the end of the child tax care credit, particularly for working women? professor rodgers: another excellent question. our center has been looking at how that child tax credit extension, how they were used. we saw households were using them for basic necessities -- food, rent, clothing. these were not payments that went wasted, especially, again,

lower-income households were more likely to use these child tax credits for these necessities. one thing our center is recommending is that the federal government to extend those child tax credits. bill: i know it is a snapshot statistic, but the monthly jobs number for january said, it is a generally positive number. the number of jobs created was 467,000, but it says women gained 40% of those jobs. women lost 1.8 million jobs since the beginning of the pandemic, february 2020. but on that gain of 40%, it is assuming 60% of those gains were made by men. why isn't the number for women stronger? professor rodgers: two big reasons. one is the sectors where women

were compared to men. we have different occupational distribution for men and women. so, sectors that have been slower to recover, and those jobs that are not coming back quite as quickly, are predominantly where women work more than men. that as well as the covid motherhood penalty, the disruption to childcare has not stopped, even though we have the vaccines and even though it seems like we are slowly getting out of this pandemic. there are still a lot of disruptions as well as uncertainty about, you know, will my daycare next week he closed because somebody was exposed? for those two reasons, the occupations where women were compared to men as well as these disruptions in schooling a childcare, are the two big reasons why women have not bounced back as quickly as men with employment numbers. bill: professor yana rodgers

teaches employment studies and employment relations at rutgers. we are talking about the impact of the pandemic on working women and we welcome your calls. we have broken the lines down. if you are a woman and employed, the number is [indiscernible] if (202) 748-8000, if you are employed, (202) 748-8001, and for all others, (202) 748-8002. professor, you feel fields like nursing and other fields with employment for women have been altered permanently? professor rodgers: yes. and some of these jobs, the lower-paying jobs, were lost and are not coming back as quickly. and some of those jobs were essential jobs where cap

working, -- cap, even at the beginning of the pandemic. so, they were more at risk. one of our reports shows more women then men were in these essential jobs, facing the risk. so yes, women compared to men work more in services in different kinds of services, so we are seeing different rates of comeback depending on the jobs. would overall, women faced more risks as essential workers during the pandemic, and in other cases they lost their jobs because of the lockdown. so, this is all happening for women. bill: this goes back to our comment about job gains in january. this is from the national women's law center. their report says men have now recouped their pandemic labor force losses.

women like behind. they report the shop contrast between men and women in the labor force reflects uneven caregiving responsibilities men and women have taken on in the pandemic, which have caused continued school and health care -- and childcare disruptions. how optimistic are you now that many schools are reopening on restrictions are being eased, that that number will balance out more for women? professor rodgers: i am optimistic. research we did at rutgers showed that in opposite sex households with two adults present, that both men and women were stepping up to do more work at home. not only childcare, also eldercare, care for the disabled, as well as housework. yes, gaps got bigger between men and women but men were also stepping up more, and that gives

reason for optimism, that so many of the norms that women do all the work at home are changing. we also showed in our research that when men step up to the plate at home, that is positively associated with women 's job satisfaction and productivity. so, it helps women to have their male partners in opposite sex households stepping up to the plate more. that is reason for optimism. also, employers now are more likely to view flexible work arrangements are favorably. especially telework and working from home. of course, not all occupations people can work from home, but where it is feasible, again, optimistic that more employers will consider having these kind of work arrangements into the foreseeable future. host: we've set aside our lines for the employed and unemployed women.

that me hear your experiences particularly the last couple of years, with professor yana rodgers of rogers. the line for employed women is (202) 748-8000. unemployed women, (202) 748-8001 . you can also send us a text at (202) 748-8003. on expanding employment opportunities, senator richard burr talked about what congress should be doing to help americans with childcare. [video clip] >> we have to find solutions to key people in their jobs, schools and businesses open. i think we can agree that americans can't work or go to school if they don't have safe and reliable childcare for their families. instead of seeking workable bipartisan solutions, the other side of the aisle insisted to do it themselves in a reckless partisan spending bill.

only in washington with the answers be to create more complicated and just jointed program -- disjointed programs rather than to do the right thing, find bipartisan support. talking about the childcare grants. barbara mikulski and i led this plan that overwhelmingly passed with bipartisan support. we can do this again, doesn't need to be partisan. needs to be smart. if we are going to find workable and lasting solutions, we've got to find them together. host: professor yana rodgers, what do you think about senator burr's comments? guest: stepping back just a little bit from the particulars of the grants, i in greek -- i agree entirely that we need to invest more in the childcare infrastructure in this country and in early childhood education. i know that was a key part of the build back better act that

has been stalled. but i'm completely in favor of universal pre-k education as well as childcare subsidies and again, extending the child tax credits at the federal level. we also need to do more to increase the wages and benefits of our childcare workforce. these are all hugely important. what the senator did not mention that is all sleep -- also in and out of the build back better bill depending on negotiations, was national paid family leave. we had paid family leave on an emergency basis during the pandemic that has been ended. some states have paid family leave including my own, new jersey, but many states do not. family leave at the national level is still unpaid and that's really not helpful for so many households. even something like earned sick

leave, we have in some states including my own state, new jersey, but many states do not. we don't have it at the national level. there's a lot more that we can do to support working families. host: there's a story at the gazette.com with the headline " u.s. childcare providers struggling to survive." the challenge has been crushed by the pandemic. since the coronavirus arrived in earnest, about one third of centers have closed and one hundred 11,000 workers have departed the sector. congress allocated tens of billions of dollars including $39 billion last march under the american rescue plan. that included $24 billion in grants to states to help providers struggling to stay open. they say it has taken the better part of a year for many states

to even start the application process, let alone get the cash for those in need. what been the delay in getting this money? guest: i don't know the particulars of the delays but this is unfortunately the sad truth of many policies, that there are lags, delays. sometimes the information doesn't get out, people don't know about the benefits. or there may be some exemptions that they are unfamiliar with, or the rigmarole of bureaucracy. some examples include some states with family leave insurance, people don't always know about it, or there could be one part of a government that operates under this policy and another that operates under that part. your question gets it the importance of implementation. it's one thing to pass policy but the implementation also

needs to be smooth, well thought out, with ample and clear information for the people who are impacted and the organizations that are impacted. host: is there any early evidence to the struggle of childcare centers and struggle of parents to find childcare with the suppressed birthrate during the pandemic? guest: that is a good question, and i don't know the answer to that but it's a good question. host: in general, in terms of costs, what are we seeing in terms of childcare today for the typical child in a childcare center? how much is that going up during the pandemic? guest: again, another good question. i don't know but using the

little -- the law of supply and demand, low supply drives up the cost. it is not only the cost issue of childcare but again the disruption and anecdotally, i've heard of a number of centers that have stayed open. they are short staffed and parents are getting calls an hour or two after dropping off their child, please come pick up your child again for no given explanation, but they suspect the reason is that the center is shortstaffed. cost is an issue but also these disruptions as well as closures. host: professor yana rodgers with us from rector universities center -- rocked her -- rikers university. (202) 748-8000 for women who are employed. if you are unemployed, that line is (202) 748-8001.

we welcome your comments by text as well. all others should call (202) 748-8002 and we welcome your comments by text at (202) 748-8003. let's go to tim in michigan. go ahead. caller: hi. i was just wondering how come there are so many programs out there that does not seem to actually function properly, or maybe they do for some and maybe not for others? and why would they just keep throwing out programs, maybe the reason why women are staying home and not working is because they do want to take care of their kids. and they want to raise them as their own and not send them off somewhere else. that's my question. host: is there a particular program you talking about?

caller: i don't really get involved. i've gotten involved a little bit with government and i've been watching your show for a while. and it just seems like there's so much government out there that we don't need all this stuff thrown at us. host: we will get a response from our guest. any thoughts? guest: this is sometimes a problem with bureaucracy where it's one thing to pass the policy or support the program, and another thing to have whatever the cost is of the program, go through the appropriate channels and set up the best way to implement these policies. there's some learning involved in some layers of government and it takes time to do this, but careful study, like what we are doing at the center and doing

surveys and asking people about are you aware of this program? did you get the benefits? what were your problems? does need kind of follow-up surveys and questions to help iron out some of those wrinkles so that the policy can work as it is intended to. regarding your question about -- for your point about some want to stay home with their kids. yes, absolutely true, but some are income constrained or they want to work and just can't because of the childcare. you are absolutely right, some people do want to stay home, mothers as well as fathers. in many cases as we saw during the pandemic, these were not choices but they were more so constraints because of disruption and closures. host: we've obviously gone to a remote workforce for many

workers across the country and that continues for many workers. perhaps will continue even after the pandemic is marginally done with. how do you think the remote work situation has affected women in particular, and do you see that benefiting them in the future, giving them more choice and time for things like childcare? guest: i do think that remote work has benefited many families. women as well as men. it has a noise been easy for a parent working at home to juggle childcare and child schooling and child supervision with working from home, but overall it has been a good management tool in terms of combining childcare with work and getting paid and not having employment disruption. as you said, not every kind of job is amenable to telework so

there are some people who are disadvantaged, some of our research shows that white individuals are more likely to be able to telework from home then -- and disabled. not everyone gains equally from being able to work from home but i am a dutch optimistic that employers -- optimistic that employers see working from home in a different light. the technology has become a common word. the infrastructure is much more in place compared to 50 years ago, as well as attitudes from employers and workers. as well as the social norms around working from home. host: in the money and live session of "usa today" focuses on one worker whose job has changed.

"it's a vicious cycle, raked to get worse." "ms. mcgee is black and works at the gift store at the museum, says for most of her married life she and her husband made too little to qualify for bank loans. we could barely make the rent, said ms. mcgee. being a black female you don't

so one might think, women are doing better. the relative pay has gone up compared to men, but it's actually an artifact of who is losing their job. we sell relatively more job losses for women in low-wage jobs so the people who are left are higher earning women and interestingly, that's helping raise overall women's relative wages compared to men at the national level.

it's more so a statistical artifact of whose left the low-wage jobs. more women lost those so the gender wage gap is closed. host: on our line from an floyd women, dee -- employed women, dee in california. caller: where was all of the concern years ago? i have been in my job 20 years ago and raised a special needs child but i had to pay that out of my pocket. at the end of the year, i only got -- if it reached 7% of my income i only got a portion back. i'm not quite sure why all of a sudden you guys woke up to this realization when we raise our kids and struggled for all these years. you are talking about special-needs children, please,

there is such -- there is no places for these kids. what are you doing about that? are you talking about people they go to work at minimum wage? i'm so frustrated at this that folks are getting free stuff now when everybody struggled and we are still taxpayers working. host: professor rodgers, your thoughts? guest: economists looking at gender gaps have been arguing for decades about the need to increase women's earnings through policy, national policy as well as better employer policies. i know my own research -- i've been arguing this for decades -- and you are right, it's been slow progress. finally care has gotten the spotlight during the pandemic because the world realized how

much economies need and societies and families rely on care and the importance of care has always been marginalized. it took this pandemic to really shine the spotlight on the value of care and the importance of care. but there are a number of researchers and policymakers who have been arguing about the importance of government to support care, for decades. and regarding a special needs child, you are right, there's been a lot of marginalization around people with disabilities and their caregivers. our research at rutgers is showing that people with disabilities were harder hit. those with jobs were more likely to lose their jobs compared to people without disabilities, and less likely to telework from home.

and their caregivers have been shouldering an enormous burden during the pandemic and before. i agree with you, more needs to be done. but we have been doing this kind of advocacy for quite a long time. now it's more mainstream. i think care has become mainstream in terms of these discussions. host: host: what are wraparound services? what does that mean? guest: my understanding is they are training services to help people who have not been in the workforce for a while get retrained, learn the latest apps, learn computer skills, and also have support for any training they need. that is my understanding of what they are. host: what is the mission of the

center? guest: great question. thank you. our center does research as well as training programs and community outreach, all around the economic health and well-being of working women and their families. true to the rutgers university slogan, we have a focus on new jersey but a global reach. we look both at the new jersey state level, some national work, and globally the status of women, their health, and their economic well-being. host: let's go to san francisco and hear from marylyn on the employed line. caller: i'm working woman. much like the previous caller, i

struggled to raise my child as well with little help. i don't mind the idea of providing tax credits and subsidies and that sort of thing, but i do not think it should be tied to families that have children. i personally don't believe we should increase the birth rate in this country or world. i think we should provide universal basic income if we are going to give out free money to disabled adults or other adults who are struggling. i, fortunately, am not in that situation, but i feel it is unfair to people who do not have children whose children are grown or chose not have children in the first place to penalize them and say because you do not have a child, you don't get child tax credit. i just don't think that is fair.

as far as subsidizing childcare to begin with with the build back better bill, i don't support that at all. i agree with the guy from michigan. even though i am a financed -- feminist and vote liberal, 99% of the time i believe children should be raised by their parents and not daycare workers. host: ok, yana rodgers. guest: you are right. there has been a discussion in support of universal basic income. it is more of a norm in other countries, especially in western europe. we have been hearing more about it, not only in conjunction with the pandemic but also the future in general as more jobs become automated and jobs occupied by people are now being performed by machines and artificial

intelligence. i agree with you. there has been more discussion of universal basic income and more support. in terms of benefits just for families with children, i do think it is important to have support specifically helping families with children. but you are absolutely right. people who do not have children also need to have support, even policies provided by employers. why not call them work/life balance policies rather than family-friendly policies? at work, it should not just be employees with children who can take advantage of these kind of work/life balance policies. but i do believe when it comes to government policies that we should prioritize subsidies for

child care and other supports for families with children, but not at the expense of households that do not have children. host: on the line from cleveland, ohio, is kathy. good morning. caller: good morning. it was my experience when i was working that the employers would hire new workers on second and third shift where there was no daycare. so, what i ended up doing was going to an older family number and asking them if they would babysit for me while i went to work, because my husband and i both worked second shift. that is the only thing we were offered. maybe if there is no daycare available for people, they asked the older workers on the dayshift. guest: great question and

comment. you are right. many employers do not offer childcare on site. it is hard to find childcare centers open past 6:00 p.m. so people like you when you are raising your child are forced to have to go to family members or other home daycare providers. one thing i believe we can do better across states is have more consistency in certification of home daycare providers and have more regulation so children will be safe and well cared for when going to home daycare providers. of course, that does not really impact having your child stay with friends or family members. but in terms of where there is room for government support, i think it would be with home daycare providers.

host: next, we will hear from ron in monroe township, new jersey. good morning. caller: yeah. i think women make up about 50% of the workforce, and they have special needs for childcare and for health. i think these special needs should be met. if they are not met at the time they are needed, we are just going to pay for them in the long run if children cannot reach their full potential. i was a child of special needs. in 1953, i went to one of the best school systems in the country and i had special ed. and i had a very good life, and i graduated college. every child needs to reach their full potential, or we will pay for it later in life.

host: professor rodgers, what is the effect of early childhood education on the success of people later in life? guest: yes, greetings also from new jersey. thank you for raising that important point. there has been so much work done on childhood development showing children who receive they care they need, whether from parents or high-quality centers, daycare centers or childcare providers, thrive later on. they do well in school. they are well socialized. some of this research is also looking at mothers who have access to maternity leave, paid maternity leave, which allows them in the first year of the child's life to stay home with

the child and breast-feed and establish that bonding. this research is showing paid family leave, paid maternity leave, as a positive impact on children's later development. so, the care that a child receives, especially in their first year, is critical. the evidence does support trying to have policies that allow new mothers to be home with their children, especially in that first year, using some sort of paid maternity leave or paid family leave. host: you mentioned earlier the rise of automated jobs, artificial intelligence. is it too early to tell how that trend will affect women in the workforce? guest: there is growing research out there now about substituting

different kinds of machinery for women's jobs. it is more context specific. it depends on what kind of jobs are being displaced. but i think, globally, the evidence shows as we see technological improvements, may tend to have more negative impacts on women's jobs than men's jobs because women are more likely to work in lower skilled jobs where machinery can be replaced by higher technology , more tech intensive machinery, and women are more likely to lose their jobs. that is in the manufacturing sector. host: a few more minutes with yana rodgers from rutgers. the line for women employed

(202) 748-8000. if unemployed, (202) 748-8001. the line for all others (202) 748-8003. 500,000 u.s. nurses are expected to quit this year. nationally, vacancies are up 45% from a year ago according to the bureau of labor statistics. they expect 500,000 more nurses to quit this year, leaving the nation short 1.1 million nurses. they write that nursing shortages are not new. nurses from the baby-boom generation have been retiring in large numbers. structural changes led hospitals to remain lean. what can we see in the future in particular for women in the nursing field? that is a stark statistic but also a real opportunity for entering that field.

guest: yes. it is a huge problem. stress and burnout have been in the normans problem in the u.s. -- enormous problem in the u.s. in nursing, and globally. there is a critical need. if we have investment in new jobs, we have to have it in new jobs to make in the traffic again. the point about hospitals making their nursing staff lean. they did that before the pandemic and in the pandemic with personal protection equipment. a big reason we had shortages when the pandemic first broke out in ppe is because hospitals had the incentive to keep very low inventory of ppe, just like they had the incentive to have a lean workforce.

this turned out to have huge negative consequences. the shortage of ppe also contributed to the burnout and stress nurses faced because they had inadequate ppe at the beginning of the pandemic. it all points to the importance of more investment, not only in nursing but also ppe and having adequate stockpiles of ppe and so forth. people will enter those jobs if the wages are good enough. we need higher wages and better terms of employment in nursing. host: we talked about this earlier in the segment. women's labor force participation is still lagging as the pandemic eases. what you think the long-term benefits, long-term structural changes to the workforce that

may benefit women? guest: i do believe we are going to get back to the pre-pandemic numbers of women's labor force participation sooner rather than later. before the pandemic, we reached a point where women made up slightly more than half of the total workforce in the u.s. i do think it is important for families to have women participating in the workforce. i'm optimistic we will get to that point sooner rather than later. host: here is another point of view on childcare. a text from sue in new jersey says, while i appreciate efforts on behalf of women in the workforce, staying home with our children when they were young was actually best even though we

had to make sacrifices. she says the two-income trap isn't always the best option. guest: yes. that is absolutely true. i do believe in women having the choice to stay at home and if they want to stay at home, that is a good fit. who can criticize staying at home and being a full-time mom with children question mark that is wonderful. not everybody has that choice. single mothers have to work, and households that cannot make it on one income alone, and we have women that perhaps could make it without working, but they want to work. so, yes, in this economy and with the support we have, there is room to have all these different kinds of models for

whether women work or not and how much they work. host: you are a professor at rutgers. what has been your experience and the experience of your colleagues at rutgers, who female colleagues at rutgers, with all of the changes to the workforce nationwide? guest: yes. rutgers did go remote. we were teaching from home. i think my colleagues and i, male and female, quickly rose to the occasion of learning the latest positive teaching techniques on zoom, adapting, and trying to have the best experience that we could for our students. personally, i am a mom of three, but my children are older, so i no longer had to with the pandemic commute to rutgers.

i could work from home so it was good for my own productivity. but my colleagues, faculty and staff with younger children, were doing the juggling. the research showed not just at rutgers but nationally that for professors, women professors with children, younger children, struggled more and had less productivity in terms of their research and publications compared to male professors. host: yana rodgers is the faculty director at rutgers university's center for women and work. thanks for being on with us this morning. guest: thank post on twitter and instagram @csp anwj. economy top of everybody's mind. three different stories on the front page of the wall street journal. the dow falls 600 points, the worst day of 2022. mortgage rates are high.

the reported this about american spending. americans and experiences. more people in the u.s. are satisfying wanderlust and spending big to do it. with daily covid-19 cases following, the strongest consumer finances and consumer history. they are eager to splurge on everything from travel to sports events. executive said. that is from the wall street journal. here's an opinion piece this morning from a biden administration official, stephen wagnon. we are asking you if you are optimistic or pessimistic about the economy. biden keeps blaming the supply chain for inflation that is dishonest. in an interview with lester holt from nbc, president biden sta