this is about an hour. >> i am a former united states senator defense and a distinct fellow at the mccain institute for national leadership. washington, d.c. thank you for joining us. i'm proud to welcome you to another installment of our program. i'm honored to welcome another longtime friend of the united states, the current mr. of foreign affairs in taiwan, mr. joseph wu.

-- we maintain long-standing commitments as outlined in the taiwan relations act and we will continue to assist taiwan in maintaining a self-sufficient defense capability. as we know, taiwan and the united states are longtime trends and partners in the indo pacific. the relationship between our two countries goes back many decades and is bound by our shared history, values, common goals and familial links. economics, technology, geopolitics and other factors affected as well. nothing draws us together more closely than the growing threat of a china that continues to build, modernize influx its military capabilities. this year will also mark the 26th anniversary of the first

free and direct election in taiwan in 1996. a troubling fact for beijing that they prefer to ignore. it was during that time that i was the senior captain and war planner at the army staff of the pentagon, working on plans in the pacific, including aggressive -- aggression in that area. as someone who has worked on this issue for a quarter-century and has watched one progress in important ways, it is a treat to discuss some of these matters today. we have someone to guide us on these matters. minister joseph wu has served a high level of political roles in his esteemed career. he was the president of the national security council and the democrat a progressive party. and he is a champion of the historic u.s. taiwan partnership. it is my honor to welcome them here to discuss democracy, the one china policy, free-trade agreements and more.

minister, welcome. minister wu: thank you. it is my honor and pleasure to chat with you this morning. mr. esper: i would like to start by asking you about senator john mccain's namesake. -- last year he was awarded this. senator mccain was one of the first to congratulate the president on her victory in january of 2016. what did senator mccain mean to you and the people of taiwan? minister wu: he means a lot to taiwan and is an important figure for the taiwanese people in our relations to the united states. i'm glad you mentioned the award for our president and i think it is symbolic in recognition of

the president's contribution -- conservation to defend taiwan. and as she mentioned when she received the award, this is not just the recognition of her, out of taiwan, the people and the place, willing to fight against communism, stand up for democracy. highly appreciated -- highly appreciative of receiving the award. when john mccain was serving in congress, he was a highly supported figure for the taiwanese people. every time there is a need for congress to speak out in defense of taiwan, he is always out there and is the champion of taiwan security. he is a champion for taiwan being a democracy, fighting against communism. to the taiwanese people, he is a hero and i know he is also a war hero for the united states, but to taiwan, it means more than that. we will treasure his support and

we will remember him forever. mr. esper: thank you for sharing that, those are written or flexion's about a great man who many miss of course, and certainly with every thing happening in europe with regard to russia and ukraine. let me dive into a question that is more topical, not long ago taiwan said it would not participate in the opening ceremony of the olympic winter games. on february 4 it reversed the decision citing pressure from the international committee. they will not use the name taiwan on team uniforms or carry the flag during the opening ceremonies. how are the olympics being used by china to suppress taiwan as your officials caution. minister wu: these are one of those organizations or activities that has been suppressed by the chinese side. i will start with stories about

chinese participation -- taiwan suspicion. in taiwan, in 2003, we were hit by sars very hard and we look for international support, but they did not end anyone to taiwan until it was a serious outbreak. when the who experts came to taiwan, they were prohibited to speak to the taiwanese government officials who were dealing with a pandemic at the time, and in 1998, taiwan was hit very hard by another virus. young children, small children, and taiwan was appealing to the support of the w.h.o.. and nobody came for taiwan. he's of the kind of situations that people understand, that we need to find all kinds of opportunities so that we are able to participate in international activities.

so that taiwan can make contributions to the international community. and the olympics is one of them. we were in negotiation with the international olympics committee about taiwanese part is patient, but the end was taiwan is able to send our team to participate in the event but we would need to use a name that we don't like, which is chinese taipei. but we were participating as an up and we are not a part of other teams like china. but even so, the chinese continue to twist our names and our way of participation, like calling us taiwan china is if we are part of china, or they put us right behind hong kong and macau to show the international community that taiwan is part of them. this is the chinese way of

suppressing taiwanese participation and it goes beyond just the olympics events. our name has been called by other countries also subject to a lot of manipulations or twists. or our names in international corporations are some homes also twisted into taiwan china or taiwan province of china and we hated it. taiwan wants to be called taiwan. this is the name of the place, and we want to be called taiwan. but sometimes chinese can come down very hard on this issue. for example, if there is an international operation who are willing to call taiwan taiwan, the chinese would use trade or business opportunities as weapons to go against these companies. the most recent example is lithuania. the lithuanian government is

waiting to call our representative, the taiwan represented office. you see how hard the chinese government is coming down on lithuania. this is the international reality we are facing. we have to fight very hard for taiwan participation in international events for organizations. in the form that we are still able to maintain our dignity, like the name, we think that is still except a bowl. or the way that taiwan is not part of any other country. mr. esper: thank you for that and the elaboration. i also appreciate the history of the w.h.o.. we will discuss that because we lived through that recently with covid-19 and i thought there behavior has been reprehensible,

particularly since taiwan did so well with covid, i thought you had a lot to let me jump to another topic. on february 7, the u.s. approved a support contract with taiwan for patriot missiles. beijing opposed and condemned this move and amended it he revoked. after a november 2021 virtual meeting between president xi jinping and president joe biden, chinese date media reported xi told biden incursions into taiwan would be playing with fire. how should the administration deal with china threats, if at all? minister wu: this is a serious issue for taiwan and i am sure for the united states and like-minded partners. if you look at xi's statement to

president biden that supporting taiwan is playing with fire, is not just threatening taiwan. it is threatening the united states. u.s. support of taiwan is not supporting taiwan for independence, but supporting tom want to remain democratic and not ruled by china, and -- but supporting taiwan to remain democratic, and not ruled by china. we need to think about chinese intention and ability so that we can safely predict what china may do to taiwan in the future. and support for taiwan, by providing defensive articles is one of the most important matters the united states has been supporting taiwan on, and we are very glad that when president trump was in office, he continued to supply defensive articles taiwan. because of that, we were able to

get the means to defend ourselves and also training together with the united states. that has enabled taiwan to defend itself, and the regular rising -- regularizing of arms sales is very important. we can't wait for five years to wait for a bundle to be made available to taiwan. now, every item is evaluated on its own merit. this is much faster. i'm glad to tell you the biden administration had carried on the tradition of supporting taiwan's defensive capabilities that we will continue to speak with the united states so we are able to defend ourselves. the chinese threat against taiwan is very serious. if you look at their air activities, there were almost 1000 sorties last year encroaching into our air defense zones, and their ships also coming close to our territorial

waters. this is a situation we need to watch out for and together with their rhetoric and potential intention to use force against taiwan, i think taiwan needs to prepare itself. we want to be able to defend ourselves. and the united states' support for taiwan or to provide taiwan with defensive articles is one of the most important things for taiwan to defend ourselves. you mentioned democracy. democracy is very important for taiwan. democracy is our way of life. democracy is also a value that we all share and taiwan is willing to share our defend -- willing to defend our shared values in the face of common units are. and it requires all democracies to work together. fmr. secretary esper: absolutely. as you and beijing no, -- beijing know, the president is

obligated to provide articles, in addition to long-standing u.s. policy. and your support makes a difference. what is taiwan doing to improve its security? does it go as far as increasing your defense budget, modernizing your equipment? can you elaborate. i know it is not in your portfolio per se. r se. minister wu: sometimes we joke with each other, myself and defense minister, to see which position is more critical. i don't envy the ministry of defense, but i also think the ministry of defense doesn't envy my job in the ministry of foreign affairs. as far as health, we have made more and more investment in our defense, just to share some internal discussions, internal discussions chaired by our senior officials and president. we were talking about taiwan

defensive capabilities. we don't really argue for the increase of our own defense budget. we argue for the increase of the defense budget for the ministry of national defense. we understand it matters to taiwan's survival. therefore, it is not just the minister of defense himself who is very keen in increasing our investment in the military, it is a whole of government approach to increase our capability so taiwan is able to defend itself. and the increase of our budget, we need to spend in a very smart way, making investment in the defensive articles that will make a difference and also making investment and isometric capabilities so that china understands it will pay a very heavy price if they initiate a conflict against taiwan. we are also engaging in civil defense reform.

the government has instituted an all-out mobilization agency underneath the ministry of national defense. we want the people here in taiwan to be able to defend themselves if china is going to lodge a war against taiwan. these are what we tried to do. and the support of the united states, or exchanges or draining or sharing of intelligence are also very important and we are very glad that the united date has been working very hard in these regards as well. fmr. secretary esper: very good to hear that. when i was secretary of defense, we would discuss these things and our view was to take a more asymmetric defense to modernize your military. it was our belief all our allies and partners should contribute at least 2% of their gdp to their defense and i would urge you to go beyond that given your situation. your report on civil defense is encouraging.

i have been encouraged by what i am seeing out of ukraine, the ukrainian people standing tall and committed to defending themselves, even if it turns into an insurgency. let me pull on that thread more on security and go to your wheelhouse and say that it is a matter between both of our countries, but when it comes to u.s. security commitments to taiwan, what does strategic ambiguity mean in taipei? is this policy approach still sufficient? minister wu: there is a policy debate in washington concerning strategic ambiguity or strategic clarity. we adhere very carefully to the statement by senior military officials or defense officials at the pentagon, i think there is no ambiguity at all. the u.s. is highly committed to peace and stability in the taiwan straight -- taiwan strait

area, and i don't see any ambiguity at all. but whether the debate is on the ambiguity side of the clarity side, we see here in taiwan that everyone seems very interested in providing support to taiwan. it is a very serious matter and very important matter. people are coming from different perspectives in thinking about how to better provide taiwan with defensive weapons, or to come up with defensive strategies for the united states to support taiwan. so, it doesn't matter to taiwan what kind of symbol, whether clarity or ambiguity. the support is there and we are seeing more and more support, and that is highly appreciated. fmr. secretary esper: i am pleased to report that, as i say often, despite political partisanship in washington right now, there is bipartisan unity

owned one thing. everybody now recognize china is the growing threat to us in the 21st century. and that same route of members of congress, executive branch officials and others ndc d.c. also support taiwan, so that is good for taipei. minister wu: i am very happy about that. it used to be a red team or a blue team or whatever you call it in washington dc. but now, it is an all-taiwan team we are very happy to see that the policy community of washington dc is very supportive of taiwan. we are very happy there is bipartisan support for taiwan on capitol hill, whether a republican administration or democratic administration, your support for taiwan is unambiguous and highly appreciated. fmr. secretary esper: you talked about day-to-day air intrusions, naval intrusions, rhetoric from

beijing, what can the united states do to help you on that front? and what would you propose coming out of washington? minister wu: what the u.s. has been doing during this period of time is to continue to monitor chinese activities. and they understand that the chinese way of doing this is something like a gray zone, it is an intrusion, but below the threshold of villa terry conflict. and the chinese like to do that all the time. they keep pushing, but they know that war is not going to happen. and if we don't react, sometimes the chinese will be emboldened to take more actions against taiwan. and that is not something that we want to see. but we have been discussing with the united states on these matters quite closely how to confound the activities of the chinese military, either to deal with their air intrusions or their slow airplanes coming

close to taiwan's vicinity, or to deal with chinese cyber warfare or chinese patrols in the south china sea or east china sea. this is something we have been discussing with china. the more important thing for the united states is to continue its freedom of operations mission in the region. the administration has been doing that since you were secretary and the u.s. is continued to do that and that is highly appreciated. in conducting freedom of mitigation operations with the united states, the united states as emboldened partners and allies in this region to do it together. this is very important. there were several locations where the united states is getting france, germany, canada, japan, australia to conduct freedom of mitigation operations in this region. that is very reassuring to the taiwanese people, that we are

not alone in dealing with the encroachment of the chinese military. other than that, we also have to deal with something we call hybrid warfare, such as disinformation campaigns or infiltration into chinese society to support proxies here, or competitive warfare, trying to shape the confidence it -- shake the confidence of the taiwanese people, which china is doing. we have to deal with these matters on a daily basis and because of that, we gain a lot of experience in dealing with hybrid warfare. and a lot of countries understand china is experienced in doing that and they want to engage with taiwan. this is good to increase taiwan's international engagement. we want to continue to engage with the united states to make sure chinese encroachment into our region or coming too close to our territorial waters will

not become a source of major conflict. the chinese way of encroaching also is trying to deplete our air defense capabilities. we have a limited number of jet fighters, and if they fly too frequently, there might be pilot fatigue or mental fatigue and that is the reason why we want to invite more jet fighters from the united states, so our air force can continue to defend our sky. fmr. secretary esper: you are right about the freedom of navigation operations. i think we ran more than ever on an annual basis, exceedingly high, and were fairly successful in getting many of our allies and some europeans to do so as well. it was doubly important because it not just showed support to taiwan, but was a broad international effort to support international norms and rules

which china violates on a daily basis around the world. upfront, i mentioned this year will be the 26 that a bursary of the first free and fair elections in taiwan. taiwan is now a vibrant democracy. i am but to look across the strait and answer, do chinese people on the mainland aspired to live in a democracy or are they content with what the ccc p is offering? minister wu: this is not an easy question to answer. if you ask normal people in taiwan, we are so accustomed to this democratic way of life, we will fight hard to defend the freedom we have right now. but if you flash back several decades to the time when taiwan was under authoritarian rule, a lot of people at the time would say we are ok under this authoritarian rule as long as the economy is growing. and i think the situation might the same in china.

we understand that there are still a lot of people in china who are waiting to speak up in the face of chinese oppression. and they are willing to take any opportunity to show their opinion. and that is the source of the future of china's democratic development. talking about the chinese regime, it is very sad to see what happened, more than one million people have been killed only because they have a distinct culture. and look at hong kong in the course of 2020 and 2021. originally, hong kong was a symbol of openness and freedom in east asia. now, it is all gone. that is why the chinese government -- that is what the chinese government is capable of. and if the chinese government is doing that in shin john and hong kong, you can see what china is

doing to its own people on the mainland. they continue to brainwash the chinese people that living under communism is good, and democracy is chaos and taiwan is just about to fall apart. the brainwashing by the chinese government is going to be very hard for the chinese people, to gain accurate information from outside china. but i think there will be chances for the chinese people as long as some people are daring to get the right and accurate information from outside china, and they are willing to continue to listen to the voices of the conscience. i think there is hope for china to become democratic in the future. fmr. secretary esper: i am glad you mention hong kong. i was there in 1997 for the hangover. -- the handover. i remember the commitments made to the people of the knighted kingdom and hong kong. i remember the phrase, one country, two systems.

and i remember the chinese government the rights of people living in hong kong. what did the people of taiwan learn from this? minister wu: we are watching it very closely, whether it was 2019 or now, we continue to watch what is happening in hong kong. the chinese government promised hong kong not just a one country, two systems model in 1997, it also promised hong kong and the international community that specifically, hong kong was not going to change for 50 years, half a century. now, it is gone. the chinese promise. be careful. it is something they break easily. don't take their word for it. and the chinese government is also using hong kong's one country, two systems model as a showcase to the taiwanese people.

they want to unify taiwan based on the one country, two systems model. but we understand the one country, two systems model and hong kong is corrupt. it is one country and one system. it is the chinese communist system now. the taiwanese people will not accept any kind of offer by the chinese government that we will have a one country, two systems model. we understand the chinese promise. it is not trustworthy. and we will not accept the chinese imposing their national security law on hong kong. if you look at the reality in taiwan, i want exists by itself. we have a democratic election for president, for our parliament and we also have a ministry of national defense to defend taiwan. we also have a ministry of foreign affairs to issue visas and passports. and we use the nt, the taiwan

dollar for our note and our economy. and this is where taiwan exists independently of the prc. this is the reality of this is the status quote in the taiwan strait. the taiwanese people's commitment is to defend the status quote, defend our democracy, defend our democratic way of life. fmr. secretary esper: at the time beijing was also offering taiwan one country, two systems and clearly the fraud they perpetrated on hong kong has opposed -- has exposed to that is not a viable path, for the reasons you mentioned. a big concern here is, will china attack? some are concerned it could happen within a year. we have folks that dod speculating may be within five years. henry kissinger not long ago

said it would not happen for at least a decade. what is your ministry of national defense's assessment? minister wu: our way of looking at this issue is not when the chinese will attack, but to evaluate their intention and capability, and a possible event in china or across the taiwan strait that will trigger chinese action. i think the chinese intention is clear already, whether it is xi jinping or senior chinese government officials. they continue to focus on taiwan as though the chinese people are guests and that kind of unification the chinese government is proposing, they are not ruling out the use of force against taiwan. a forceful reunification is what they are advocating at this is something we need to bear in mind, that chinese intention is very clear already. and if you look at their

capabilities, they have been increasing tremendously in the last few years, whether it is missile capabilities, space technology, cyber capabilities, their air force or surface ships. it is beyond our imagination that china has made so much investment and modernized their military, capable of not only striking taiwan, but going beyond the first island chain. we need to develop our asymmetric warfare so taiwan is able to defend ourselves. and if you look at possible events that may trigger the conflict between taiwan and china, one thing might come from taiwan and we are being very careful about that. we don't want to provoke chinese actions against taiwan. taiwan is a peace-loving country and we want to maintain our stable line of rhetoric in thinking about our relations

with the united states and like-minded partners. we don't want to be a provocatuer in a conflict and because of our policy all these years, we have won the appreciation of partners throughout the world that the taiwan government is a contributor to peace and stability in the taiwan strait. but on the other side, there are domestic priorities we need to watch out for. they like to divert attention by initiating internal conflict. if something bad happened to china inside their country, for example economic slowdown, unemployment, major catastrophes, that's might be the time that we need to watch very carefully. and that is something we are watching very carefully. we don't count on the

calculation of when that will happen, when the chinese will attack taiwan, but we are counting on ourselves that we are prepared. whether it is tomorrow or next year or 10 years from now, we willow is be prepared. fmr. secretary esper: you mentioned not being provocative -- we will always be prepared. fmr. secretary esper: you mentioned not being provocative. i'm going to ask a provocative question. chinese policy has been around for 40 years. i am skeptical that it is relevant in how china and type -- in how taiwan has developed. do you want to comment on the relevancy today of the one china policy? minister wu: we understand that the united states and other partners of of ours, we don't have diplomatic relations or maintain the one china policy. the one china policy is distinct from the one china principle. i think under the one china

policy, we are still able to engage with each other beneath the level of formal diplomatic recognition. for example, we are able to speak with each other on defense matters and other matters and our relations with the united states have been very strong in the last for years. and it is getting stronger. and the one china policy is fine with us, even though we don't like it, but at least we are able to work with the united states based on that one china policy. and when the united states is mentioned in one china policy, the basic components would include free communiques with china, but there is also the relations act and these components are the most important basis for taiwan to be able to continue to engage with the united states. and by the same token, we are also working with other major partners in europe, australia,

japan. we don't have formal diplomatic relations, but we continue to advance our relations with like-minded countries and we appreciate their support for the peace and stability of the taiwan strait. but the one china principle is very different. they are talking about taiwan being part of the prc and that is something we are really against. fmr. secretary esper: that has troubled me over the years with regard to the one china policy. aging has been successful with regard to confusing people as to what the one china policy is, twisting it to the point that many people around the world and in washington dc don't really understand what it means. they think it is washington excepting chinese sovereignty over taiwan and that is not the case. if memory serves me correctly, it is one of the six assurances trying to clarify during the

reagan administration that we do not accept that. we only acknowledge that the chinese believe that. that is a very important thing that we need to understand and relearn in some cases. minister wu: that is right and that is very important, to let the international community or your people know -- understand that the one china policy has a component that would allow taiwan to engage with the united states without recognizing chinese sovereignty over taiwan. chinese claim of sovereignty over taiwan is accepted by the united states. on that note, one thing is important for taiwan. we were talking about chinese international participation earlier. there was a u.n. resolution adopted by the un's general assembly in 1971. in that resolution, it talks about the prc being the sole representative of china. but there is no reference to taiwan.

china was very good in twisting that resolution with its own interpretation of the secretary general of the you went to make it sound like china is part of the prc. when states refer to taiwan, they refer to taiwan as part of the prc, and that is the interpretation of the resolution. and that is also against the u.s. position on taiwan's participation in the united nations. fortunately, the state department started to speak on that on resolution 2758. i think the u.s. now will assist taiwan to participate in international activities or organizations. this is very important. fmr. secretary esper: that was the next question i was going to ask, with regard to

international organizations. we spoke earlier about the who. i think it is reprehensible you are not part of the w.h.o.. it seems to me that would be the place to begin because the moral component of taking care of the taiwanese people and helping you endure pandemics and things like that. where would be the next step after the w.h.o. that you would like to see a more active role for taiwan in international organization? it could be in intellectual property organization or any of those as part of the u.n. system. minister wu: it is a good question. we have to start from somewhere, somewhere were taiwan's dissipation has been seen as morally correct. if we are able to get the international community to understand that taiwanese participation is the right thing, or that taiwan's exclusion is wrong, we need to start from somewhere. the w.h.o. is the organization

we have been focusing on for a few years and we haven't made the final result of china being an observer or participant and we will continue to fight for that. fortunately, the united states and like-minded partners have become more forceful in supporting taiwanese participation in the w.h.o. there are other organizations we are fighting for. taiwan happens to be an air hub, milliman's -- millions of flights coming through taiwan and millions of passengers stopping in taiwan to either come to taiwan or go to other countries and therefore, for i want to be able to participate in the international silva lazy asian -- international civil aviation organization. we have been working very hard. and another one would be

interposed, -- enter pole -- would be interpol, because criminals could slip in and become a problem for taiwan or other countries. therefore, we are asking that taiwan is being able to participate in interpol. or at least get access to major criminal data so we can identify passengers coming to taiwan. this is another organization we have been targeting for international support. there are other organizations that require taiwan's participation to make it comprehensive. you mentioned an international property organization like oecd.

that is something taiwan should also be able to participate in, and we will explore the possibilities of our participation in these international organization. something we don't talk about very often is our cooperation with the united states in international organizations, but we have a dialogue with the state department with the united states on international organizations. it has been very successful in coordinating our actions and supporting taiwan's participation and now we are getting like-minded partners to talk with us on these important issues of taiwan's international participation. but the real cost of taiwan's exclusion from international organizations, i go back to you and resolution 2758 -- u.n.

resolution 2758. if we can't tackle this, it will be very difficult for the uinta participate in international organizations, especially those associated with the united nations -- very difficult for taiwan to participate in international organizations, especially those associated with the united nations. of all the countries in the world, taiwan has 23.5 million people. excluding taiwan from international organizations, from the right to participate and from the obligation to make contributions is simply wrong, and we need to make a correction of that. fmr. secretary esper: you smartly chose three organizations initially. any reasonable person would find it hard to disagree with

organizations that deal with health, safety and welfare. i would put w.h.o. in that bucket, international civil aviation organization and inte rpol. i think the united states and others should lead the push in the u.n. system to get you participatory right in those organizations because the taiwanese people are otherwise left out of the benefits provided and the benefits you can provide those organizations as well. it makes sense to me. speaking of international organizations, in january 2018, after the u.s. with roof from the transpacific partnership, the remaining 11 countries agreed on a new one, the cppb. do you think the united states should join? and i know you have thoughts on your own free-trade agreement with the united states. what are your views on each?

minister wu: of the cp p -- on the cppb, we have been working very hard. we already tendered our application and hope there is a chance for us to discuss with the member states about taiwan's admission. we are doing just that right now, speaking with the member states of the cp p -- cppb. participating in the cppb is a complicated matter. it is not just whether the group will accept taiwan or not. as long as there is one country that is speaking up against taiwan's admission, there is no chance for us.

you can understand how china has the motivation to mobilize one or two countries to block taiwan's participation. we are looking at this as a strategic objective and will fight very hard for that. the complicated matter is that china has also tendered its application. if china is tendering its application, it might want to use its influence to manipulate the acceptance process either for china or other countries. if you look at the trade center in taiwan, it is very high, we are meeting all the requirements for our acceptance. we understand we have to do it. but if you look at the chinese trade center, it is very low. it still has nationally owned enterprises and is still using trade sanctions against many countries.

therefore, it will be a long time before china meets the high standards of the tpb. that is a very complicated manner. i know the u.s. has withdrawn from the tpb, but if you look at the dynamics in the indo pacific, china has plans to become the dominant power in the region. and china is not only looking at its defense or military activities, it is looking at its own trade and economic activities. and we need to come up with an architect in order to safeguard the freedom and openness of these trade systems in this region. therefore, i certainly hope the united states will think about rejoining the tpp, to make it strategically important to guard

against expansion of authoritarianism in this part of the world. and if the united states is willing to speak to taiwan on either the tpp or strategic trade agreements, i would take the high ground to look at this. the united states has been supporting taiwan and wants to support taiwan economically, politically, diplomatically, and if you look at the chinese way of trying to isolate by one, -- isolate taiwan, they are not only trying to isolate taiwan diplomatically, they are trying to prevent taiwan from getting access to military support from other countries and trying to isolate taiwan economically. and if we think taiwan is strategically important for the u.s., the best safeguard for taiwan will be in agreement with

the united states and i can assure it will also help the united states economy. look at taiwanese investment in the united states, i think we helped create a lot of jobs in the united states. and if there's going to be an fta, it is going to create even more jobs in the united states and is strategically a safeguard for us. one of our good mutual friends spoke out on several occasions that the best defense for taiwan the u.s. can provide is on fta. fmr. secretary esper: i agree. whether it is taiwan or any country, as we compete with china, it is important we employ all elements of our national powers, diplomatic and military, but economic, developmental assistance, etc. to me, right now, the biggest

missing piece of the puzzle is economic outreach, either as part of a cttb or fta with taiwan. that would take us a long way to economic integration but also send all the right signals about our commitment to taiwan, a thriving democracy and self-sufficient economy. i was in arizona and they are excited about what is happening there, with the smc coming. it is great for the u.s. as well to have that resource inside the united states, so very exciting. joseph, you have been very generous, you have given us fantastic answers. as you sit in taipei, if you could look at your crystal ball and tell us what you think the taipei-beijing-washington relationship looks like in five years, what does your crystal ball tell you? minister wu: the most

unfortunate thing is, i don't have that crystal ball. if i look at closer relations between taiwan and the united states are relations between the u.s. and china, the trajectory is clear. we don't see any hope of relaxation of tensions between taiwan and china. the reason is clear. china has the intention to take over taiwan militarily and they seem to be more confident of their capabilities. and we now have strong support from the international community, and without the ability of taiwan to defend itself, it is going to be very hard to prevent china from thinking about using military force against taiwan. in that regard, we continue to look forward to u.s. support for taiwan, either providing defensive articles or engaging with each other so taiwan knows more about how to defend itself. we also need international

community support for taiwan. for example, the major summits the u.s. has participated in all came out with a joint statement to support taiwanese participation or support peace and stability over the taiwan strait. that is very important. as long as we have that, that is a safeguard for taiwan to defend itself or for the area to remain peaceful and stable. if you look at the trajectory of china-u.s. relations or taiwan-u.s. relations, if you look at chinese influence not just in southeast asia, but south asia, central asia, africa, latin america, this is very worrisome.

i am sure decision-makers in washington dc are also seeing this happening. if you look at leftist governments in latin america, it is very worrisome. they seem to have better relations with china than with the united states. as long as china continues to expand its influence throughout the world, all democracies, led by the united states, will think about ways to counter the expansion of authoritarianism. on that note, taiwan happens to be on the front lines. we understand our responsibility of safeguarding ourselves, but we also understand our responsibility for democracy and will continue to work with you to make sure taiwan prevails in taiwan's democracy avails. if you look at taiwan-u.s. relations, i see a very good trajectory, and relations have been improving tremendously and we will continue to see that

taiwan plays a very positive role in the international community, so that the united states will continue to look at taiwan as a net contributor to international issues. when president trump was in office, the u.s. started to describe taiwan as a democratic success story, reliable partner and a force for good. we are happy about that. we also understand the responsibility of taiwan and will continue to work together so that taiwan can continue to shine throughout the world as a successful model of democracy, as a reliable partner for the democratic world and a force for good. whenever the u.s. thinks taiwan can make a contribution to major issues, taiwan will always either. fmr. secretary esper: thank you for that great dancer. i think you summed up the

international situation well. when i was secretary of defense, we recognized great power competition was on us and i made it a priority to implement a national defense strategy at what we said was, the greatest challenge if not threat facing the united states and i would argue the world's democracies is a visor china. it depends which way they go. it is time for democracies to unite and bring in taiwan and other democracies that have henceforth not been allowed to participate so that we can together defend international law and norms and defend freedom of religion, press, speech and assembly. all those things may be in the balance as china continues to rise, and disturbingly alongside rush these days. this is the challenge of the 21st entry. it is great to have taiwan as partners.

i really enjoyed our discussion. you provided tremendous answers and comments that were thoughtful and insightful and strategic. mr. wu, thank you, and for the audience turning into this sixth and a series of conversations with local leaders about challenges in the years to come. minister of foreign affairs joseph wu, thank you for a great discussion. minister wu: thank you, mark, for inviting me.

singh announces sanctions against russia during the white house press briefing with press secretary jennifer psaki.